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  • Nehru and Indian secularism

    Found this article on reddit today. A really nice perspective on how Nehru's ideas of secularism have impeded reformists in the very communities that he wanted to protect:

    The Nehruvian condescension towards minorities - Livemint
    The Nehruvian condescension towards minorities

    pdated: Tue, Jun 04 2013. 07 02 PM IST
    “I charge you with communalism because you are bringing forward a law about monogamy only for Hindu community. Take it from me that the Muslim community is prepared to have it but you are not brave enough to do it.”

    These words were spoken by J.B. Kripalani, who was decidedly not from the Hindu right, in 1955 during the parliamentary debate on the Hindu Code Bill. Kripalani was castigating then prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru for being communal, a charge we agree with. Yet, it is Nehru who is upheld as a paragon of liberal and secular values, and generation after generation of intellectuals has internalized his dubious standard.

    Malini Parthasarathy, director of The Hindu Centre for Politics and Public Policy, echoed Nehru in a debate on Twitter, when she said that reform in the Muslim community should happen through “persuasion” rather than “imposition”. Parthasarathy said that India must take group rights seriously “if we want the world to believe that we are a genuine democracy.” But that does not answer why citizens affiliated to one religion should be “forced” to face difficulties in adopting children, for example—and if their religion is indeed opposed to adoption or other practices, why not let those individuals decide?
    Even Infosys Ltd founder N.R. Narayana Murthy has argued that reform in the Muslim community should come from “them”. Delivering the first Darbari Seth Memorial Lecture in 2002, Murthy said on the issue of having a uniform civil code that the onus to introduce it should be on leaders of a given community “if they want their community to prosper.” Should Indians not care about the welfare and prosperity of their fellow Indians?

    Many intellectuals and politicians dismiss as “communal” those advocating for dissolution of identity distinctions enforced by the state. Kripalani would have been called communal today. There are already special education schemes for minorities. Now, the National Advisory Council chaired by Sonia Gandhi has recommended that the National Rural Employment Guarantee Scheme should have a special minority focus. Special courts are being created to expedite trials for Muslims. Don’t undertrials of other communities deserve swift justice? Why not reform the judicial system to speed up justice delivery for all Indians?

    India rejected Nehru’s economic ideology of state control and government-led industrialization, embracing economic liberalism in 1991 with impressive results for all sections of society, as Columbia University economists Jagdish Bhagwati and Arvind Panagariya have comprehensively documented.
    In the interest of social harmony and national integration, it is high time the Indian state breaks from Nehru’s construct of seeing religious minorities as “separate from us” and stops indulging in the “soft bigotry of low expectations” from certain communities. It is a construct that manufactures distrust in society and encourages Indians to be suspicious of each other because the state emphasizes our differences, rather than our common heritage, while making us compete for goods and services for which an artificial shortage is created by faulty economic policies.

    Hamid Dalwai, a Marathi Muslim who faced ostracism from his community for being a radical reformist, understood this. He advocated women’s emancipation through education and employment at the social level, and for a liberal-secular government at the political level. In his book Muslim Politics in Secular India, he critiqued minority politics for continuing to further the separatist mindset of the pre-partition Muslim League.
    The real problem, Dalwai wrote, was Muslim—or what would today be called Islamist—obscurantism. Dalwai also argued that the right answer to Muslim communalism is not its Hindu variant, but genuine secularism. Indeed, Hindu communalism is largely reactive whereas the Muslim opposition to separation of state and religion is theologically central is globally visible. Despite this reality, the intelligentsia attempts to falsely draw an equivalence between both.

    Dalwai wrote that Indian Muslim intellectuals are more likely to blame Hindus rather than introspect. Things have not changed much since his advocacy for Muslim reform—indeed, leftists are more likely to support Islamists.

    Advocates of religion-based group rights do not admit that social backwardness is hardly exogenous. It is not scientific to call for socio-economic adjustments across communities without asking why those disparities exist in the first place. In the case of the Muslim community, it is clear that some backwardness is endogenous because of the community’s attitudes towards women, especially women’s employment, as documented in the Sachar committee report.

    Reform is the need of the hour, and entails confronting what Dalwai characterized as “obscurantist medievalism” rather than evading it under the deceptive label of “minority protection” and “secularism”. The new standard should be that anyone who claims that such reform is a “Muslim problem” is communal, for it is a problem for all Indians if a large section of India’s society is consumed by religion-sanctioned and state-enforced orthodoxy.
    Scholars like Partha Chatterjee have pointed out that the Indian Right is simply not threatened by genuine secularism, and that if a strict separation of religion and state is accepted, this would—in his left-liberal view—be incompatible with religion-based positive discrimination.

    This exposes the game of left-liberals—“formal” equality is not enough, the ever-subjective “substantive” or “contextual” equality is what will be demanded. Unfortunately, sections of the Right fall in this trap by failing to advocate the former, which would force the Left to explicitly defend the latter.

    In their everyday lives, Indians continue to resist the divisive messages issued by the intelligentsia and are forging a deeper, common identity. In India’s melting pot—and urbanizing landscape—customs are cross-pollinating more than ever before, making for a unique and constantly evolving culture. It is government’s insistence on telling Indians what their identity is that creates fissures in society. Unfortunately, India’s first prime minister set this standard—it is time we changed it.

    Rajeev Mantri is director of GPSK Investment Group and Harsh Gupta is a Singapore-based finance professional.

  • #2
    So Nehru's economic policies failed miserably and brought the country to the brink of bankruptcy, his foreign policy came crashing down in 1962 and his warped definition of Secularism has hamstrung Indian minorities to this day. Is there no end to the damage that this man and his descendants did?

    The biggest problem with Indian secularism is that the constitution says that people of all religions should be treated equal before the law, but in reality that is not the case. In many cases people are still judged according to laws made for their own religion, some of which are plainly discriminatory. What is necessary to have true secularism is a uniform civil code, which nobody in the country seems to be interested in.

    Comment


    • #3
      This is a difficult discussion because the issue itself is contentious within the various communities themselves. So lets take the articles byline.

      It is government’s insistence on telling Indians what their identity is that creates fissures in society

      Using this wiki article for basis.

      Hindu code bills - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

      What was the purpose behind the hindu code bill ?
      Unify the Hindu community, which ideally would be a first step towards unifying the nation. Nehru and his supporters insisted that the Hindu community, which comprised 80% of the Indian population, first needed to be united before any actions were taken to unify the rest of India. Therefore, the codification of Hindu personal law became a symbolic beginning on the road to establishing the Indian national identity.Nehru also felt that because he was Hindu, it was his prerogative to codify specifically Hindu law, as opposed to Muslim or Jewish law.

      Who is a hindu ?
      The Code established "Hindu" to be a negative category that would include all those who did not identify as a Muslim, Jew, Christian, or Parsi. Such a broad designation ignored the tremendous diversity of region, tradition and custom in Hinduism. Those who practised Sikhism, Jainism, and Buddhism were considered to be Hindus under the jurisdiction of the Code Bill. While these had originally included aspects of Hinduism, by this time they had evolved into unique religions with their own customs, traditions, and rituals. There was also significant controversy over what was established to be Hindu personal law. Sanctioned under Hinduism were a variety of practices and perspectives. Therefore, the administration had to arbitrate between these variations, legitimating some and disregarding or marginalising others.

      The application of the Hindu Code Bills have been controversial in determining who is to be called a Hindu and who is entitled to be exempted from certain rules of Hindu law.
      Govt has not arrived at a positive definition of what a hindu is. So on this basis govt is not even telling Hindus who they are :)

      Personal Law dealing with muslims, christians, parsis & jews date to the British era. After independence we just continued them.

      Work on the Hindu code bill started in the 20s and yet into the 50s there was still so much opposition that Nehru had to subdivide it into 4 bills if there was to be any chance of passing anything.

      Nehru split the Code Bill into four separate bills, including the Hindu Marriage Act, the Hindu Succession Act, the Hindu Minority and Guardianship Act, and the Hindu Adoptions and Maintenance Act. These were met with significantly less opposition, and between the years of 1952 and 1956 each was effectively introduced in and passed by Parliament.
      Now we get to J.B. Kripalani who might not be from the right but nonetheless represented the conservative voice.

      there was significant opposition from various Hindu politicians, organisations and devotees who saw themselves unjustly singled out as the sole religious community whose laws were to be reformed.

      So why no movement with other communities ?
      Though Nehru himself likely would have favored a uniform code, he knew that personal laws were linked with religious identity in India and therefore could not be easily abolished. Recognizing that what he wanted was not a political reality he settled for an unenforceable clause.

      Some resistance to the code was on the grounds that its imposition would destroy the cultural identity of minorities, the protection of which is crucial to democracy.
      More likely just getting the Hindu code bills passed was such an uphill struggle that he did not have the stomach to tackle other communities.

      Which leads to article 44 of the constitution.

      A compromise was reached in the inclusion in the first draft of an article that compelled the state "to endeavour to secure for the citizens a uniform civil code throughout the territory of India." This clause—which equated to a goal, not a right—became Article 44 in the Constitution. It was widely criticised by proponents of a uniform code because it contained no mechanism and provided no timetable for enforcement. However, Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru and others insisted on its inclusion, arguing that though only symbolic it was an important step towards national unity.
      Imposition vs persuasion.

      Who in the minority communities is going to stand up and get this ball rolling recalling what Nehru had to go through.

      So, did the Hindu code bills succeed in their intent ie unifying 'Hindus' ?

      These continue to be controversial to the present day among women's, religious, and nationalist groups
      And what does this signify ? Certain groups are going to be opposed no matter what. But the bills did pass in parliament so the majority agreed that this was the best that could have been achieved at the time.

      And that was just the byline, there is a lot of stuff crammed into that op-ed.

      Have posted about Hamid Dalwai here earlier. Clearly a man before his time, its a pity he died young.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
        Govt has not arrived at a positive definition of what a hindu is. So on this basis govt is not even telling Hindus who they are :)

        Personal Law dealing with muslims, christians, parsis & jews date to the British era. After independence we just continued them.

        The British even had a separate personal law for Sikhs as well, the Anand Marriage Act 1909, but it was scrapped by the Indian government soon after independence and Sikhs put under the Hindu Marriage Act. An action which created mistrust of the central government in Punjab among the Sikhs. Coupled with few other grievances, it played into the Sikh separatism movement.

        So in this regard, I totally agree with the article's statement that, "It is government’s insistence on telling Indians what their identity is that creates fissures in society".
        Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
        -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

        Comment


        • #5
          I wish we had French-style secularism where the gov't is completely dissociated from religion, not simply trying to appease every religious community. That way, we wouldn't need separate personal laws for Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Parsis, Jedis and Pastafarians. Uniform civil code ftw.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
            So Nehru's economic policies failed miserably and brought the country to the brink of bankruptcy, his foreign policy came crashing down in 1962 and his warped definition of Secularism has hamstrung Indian minorities to this day. Is there no end to the damage that this man and his descendants did?

            The biggest problem with Indian secularism is that the constitution says that people of all religions should be treated equal before the law, but in reality that is not the case. In many cases people are still judged according to laws made for their own religion, some of which are plainly discriminatory. What is necessary to have true secularism is a uniform civil code, which nobody in the country seems to be interested in.
            Well he did establish a good foundation for heavy industry and the IITs. That's all the good I can think of him.

            Comment


            • #7
              Is it that hard to just impose any secular system Indian Government would sees fit?

              Seems to me that a fear from temporary outburst is holding while country as a hostage for a long period of time.
              No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

              To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                Is it that hard to just impose any secular system Indian Government would sees fit?

                Seems to me that a fear from temporary outburst is holding while country as a hostage for a long period of time.
                No one has the political will to do it. The various communities in India have become addicted to their special statuses anyway.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by cataphract View Post
                  I wish we had French-style secularism where the gov't is completely dissociated from religion, not simply trying to appease every religious community. That way, we wouldn't need separate personal laws for Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Parsis, Jedis and Pastafarians. Uniform civil code ftw.
                  Have you ever lived in France. The kind of issues they have are ones we will never see in India or for that matter any other country that practices common law.

                  Am very happy to live in a country where simple religious symbols are not considered an affront to the secular state if worn within a public institution. You want work in a public institution ? then lose that head scarf or turban and wipe that tilak off your forehead. Wonder how much of our public that would alienate over nothing.

                  Hey Manmohan, we'd like to have you in government but that turban is just gonna have to go !

                  French style secularism is implemented with civil law which applies all over the continent, across Russia right up to China. Turkey & Egypt also have to deal with it. Its much more imposing.

                  You think imposing will work in India. We saw that with states reorganisation committee in the 50s when the centre wanted to impose Hindi as the national language all over the country. Hey if it was French style we would have had yet another insurgency in the south.

                  No thanks.

                  Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                  The British even had a separate personal law for Sikhs as well, the Anand Marriage Act 1909, but it was scrapped by the Indian government soon after independence and Sikhs put under the Hindu Marriage Act. An action which created mistrust of the central government in Punjab among the Sikhs. Coupled with few other grievances, it played into the Sikh separatism movement.

                  So in this regard, I totally agree with the article's statement that, "It is government’s insistence on telling Indians what their identity is that creates fissures in society".
                  Controversy Exhibit #1: Sikhs, Jains & Buddhists got told who they were.
                  Last edited by Double Edge; 06 Jun 13,, 09:32.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                    Have you ever lived in France. The kind of issues they have are ones we will never see in India or for that matter any other country that practices common law.

                    Am very happy to live in a country where simple religious symbols are not considered an affront to the secular state if worn within a public institution. You want work in a public institution ? then lose that head scarf or turban and wipe that tilak off your forehead. Wonder how much of our public that would alienate over nothing.

                    Hey Manmohan, we'd like to have you in government but that turban is just gonna have to go !

                    French style secularism is implemented with civil law which applies all over the continent, across Russia right up to China. Turkey & Egypt also have to deal with it. Its much more imposing.

                    You think imposing will work in India. We saw that with states reorganisation committee in the 50s when the centre wanted to impose Hindi as the national language all over the country. Hey if it was French style we would have had yet another insurgency in the south.

                    No thanks.


                    Controversy Exhibit #1: Sikhs, Jains & Buddhists got told who they were.
                    Fine, let me rephrase. We should have a gov't that is completely disconnected from religion. It should not make ANY decisions based on a community's or an individual's religious beliefs. Social welfare schemes should not be tied to religious identity. Public holidays should not be religious holidays. Personal law should not be based on religion. At the same time, the gov't should not impede anybody's religious observances as long as they do not impinge upon others. You are free to wear a turban, but not free to keep your neighbours awake at night with Diwali firecrackers or wake them up at 4 AM with prayer calls. I guess that doesn't sound French and I can't give another example.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by cataphract View Post
                      We should have a gov't that is completely disconnected from religion.
                      Is there anything in our constitution to make you think otherwise ?

                      Originally posted by cataphract View Post
                      It should not make ANY decisions based on a community's or an individual's religious beliefs. Social welfare schemes should not be tied to religious identity. Public holidays should not be religious holidays. Personal law should not be based on religion.
                      This is where things start getting into political territory which will play out in a partisan manner. How to remain objective here.

                      The poor come into the cities for work and see how those better off live and would like to have a piece of the action. But they cannot do that and it creates friction. So we resort to redistribution to keep the peace.

                      The argument centers on the extent of redistribution when it should really focus on the creation of opportunity for all. But there are vested interests that oppose this. In fact its gotten more pernicious of late. The people thanks to the never ending hype from scams perceive only corporates & politicos getting amazingly rich and have decided to obstruct the passing of legislation. Less laws passed, fewer people get richer. The oppositions job right now or lets say all they can do is oppose anything and everything.

                      Originally posted by cataphract View Post
                      At the same time, the gov't should not impede anybody's religious observances as long as they do not impinge upon others. You are free to wear a turban, but not free to keep your neighbours awake at night with Diwali firecrackers or wake them up at 4 AM with prayer calls. I guess that doesn't sound French and I can't give another example.
                      Actually it sounds very American. Zoning laws and individual jurisdictions down to the town & village level.

                      Some things are legal in some places and not in others as opposed to being more consistent when ordered from on high as is the present case.

                      This will require much more autonomy between states & centre than presently. Its in the books.

                      The US-India business council identifies only 8 states that are considered business friendly. These states will become more prosperous than others and then demand more autonomy from the centre. I see the Tamils in the forefront of this movement.

                      Going further means being able to make your own laws in individual towns & villages. Will increase public participation in the process.

                      How are we to deal with this.
                      Last edited by Double Edge; 08 Jun 13,, 10:54.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
                        So Nehru's economic policies failed miserably and brought the country to the brink of bankruptcy, his foreign policy came crashing down in 1962 and his warped definition of Secularism has hamstrung Indian minorities to this day. Is there no end to the damage that this man and his descendants did?

                        The biggest problem with Indian secularism is that the constitution says that people of all religions should be treated equal before the law, but in reality that is not the case. In many cases people are still judged according to laws made for their own religion, some of which are plainly discriminatory. What is necessary to have true secularism is a uniform civil code, which nobody in the country seems to be interested in.
                        Be aware that a uniform civil code would impact Hindus across the board, on matters such as inheritance, adoption and everything in between. While I do not particularly favour laws based on religion, it is a simple truth that communities across India, even those belonging to the same ethnic communities and religions may follow different customs. Apart from removing a few ridiculous laws that actually impinge on the rights of others (like the one that allows 4 wives and the trivial triple talaq) and formulating some non religion based laws (such as the Special Marriages Act), I would recommend leaving the others alone. It is not the government's business to intervene in our lives, unless someonee rights are getting abused.
                        "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                          Is there anything in our constitution to make you think otherwise ?
                          Originally, our constitution made no reference to secularism. The clause was added in the 70s amid Indira Gandhi's demagoguery. Beyond that, I would have to read up on the constitution to remember the exact wording.
                          Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                          This is where things start getting into political territory which will play out in a partisan manner. How to remain objective here.

                          The poor come into the cities for work and see how those better off live and would like to have a piece of the action. But they cannot do that and it creates friction. So we resort to redistribution to keep the peace.

                          The argument centers on the extent of redistribution when it should really focus on the creation of opportunity for all. But there are vested interests that oppose this. In fact its gotten more pernicious of late. The people thanks to the never ending hype from scams perceive only corporates & politicos getting amazingly rich and have decided to obstruct the passing of legislation. Less laws passed, fewer people get richer. The oppositions job right now or lets say all they can do is oppose anything and everything.
                          I know and I couldn't agree more. Let's imagine the vested interests gone for a moment. I have nothing against redistribution, only that it should be based on personal/family income rather than the larger community's socio-economic status. Give poor Hindus, poor Muslims, poor Gujjars and poor Gonds reservations, subsidies and tax breaks. Tax the daylights out of the rich Hindus, rich Gujjars and rich Gonds.


                          Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                          Actually it sounds very American. Zoning laws and individual jurisdictions down to the town & village level.

                          Some things are legal in some places and not in others as opposed to being more consistent when ordered from on high as is the present case.

                          This will require much more autonomy between states & centre than presently. Its in the books.

                          The US-India business council identifies only 8 states that are considered business friendly. These states will become more prosperous than others and then demand more autonomy from the centre. I see the Tamils in the forefront of this movement.

                          Going further means being able to make your own laws in individual towns & villages. Will increase public participation in the process.

                          How are we to deal with this.
                          I don't see the connection with zoning laws and federalism , although they are definitely good things. On the topic of religion and state, India needs to go further than the US, and remove state endorsement of religious holidays and institutions. The Americans have Christmas and we have every holiday in the book. And why do temples sitting on billions of dollars of endowments and mosques sitting fat on Wahabi money need tax exemptions?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            There are two ideological parties in india:

                            1) Indian National Congress: A party of high castes whose aim is to preserve the caste hierarchy, sometimes regardless of religion. Hinduism belongs to high castes, the low castes can have islam, christianity, Divide and rule etc etc.

                            2) BJP: Began as a nationalist party who believed that only the high caste hindus desired for the well being of india. Over the decades, its support base has cut across both the high and the low castes. Today it aggressively campaigns for a contemporary form of hinduism called "hindutva" which secretly works for the abolishment of caste hierarchy for the purpose of unification.

                            Both the INC and BJP are each others mortal threats. Without caste hierarchy the INC cannot triumph and without hindutva the BJP cannot triumph.

                            IMO, "indian secularism" is nothing but a congress master stroke giving legal entitlement for the minority religious groups to leech of the majority. On the surface it appears as if it benefits a minority religion but it actually maintains the status quo of the old caste order.

                            It was the british raj who originally believed that ruling india meant dividing it rather than uniting it. No doubt the INC has inherited the legacy of the raj and the BJP is pursuing a policy which will most probably not work. IMO, the caste hierarchy will outlive political parties and gods.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The INC is made up of the erstwhile Rajas, Nawabs and Princes who formed the ruling class in the states. These old royals of yore have some sort of holding on the locals of their areas but it is slowing loosing ground to other regional parties and national parties. These power groups came to power based on old loyalties.

                              BJP on the other hand has its leadership covering all strata of society and is more cosmopolitan in nature, however it has one major disagvantage is that many of it leaders have very retrogarde policy mindset that takes them many steps back.

                              Cheers!...on the rocks!!

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