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Mohan
22 May 13,, 19:45
Its disgusting :( :mad:

A man has died and two are injured after police responded to a reported machete attack in south-east London.

The government is reported to be treating the assault as a suspected terrorist incident and the prime minister said it was "truly shocking".

Eyewitnesses said a man was brutally attacked in a Woolwich street by two men who were later shot by officers.

Local MP Nick Raynsford said the dead man was a soldier at Woolwich barracks but this has not been confirmed.

Home Secretary Theresa May has summoned a meeting of the government's emergency response committee Cobra to assess the incident.

Mrs May said she had been briefed by the director general of Security Service MI5, Andrew Parker, and Metropolitan Police Commissioner Bernard Hogan-Howe on the "sickening and barbaric" attack.

"It has been confirmed to me that a man has been brutally murdered," she said. "Two other men were shot by armed police and they are currently receiving treatment for their injuries."

BBC News - Man dead in suspected Woolwich terror attack (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22630303)

bigross86
22 May 13,, 20:55
A soldier expects a death on the battlefield alongside his mates, fighting for what's right, not to be butchered in the street by human scum.

RIP

antimony
23 May 13,, 02:18
RIP

While despicable and gruesome this seems more like a local crime than "terrorism" to me, maybe a hate crime.

citanon
23 May 13,, 03:13
According to Twitter by way of Live Leak the two suspects hit the poor guy with their car, then ran out and beheaded him as he lay on the ground. They were then shot by police responding to the incident.

RIP. No punishment is too harsh for the two scumbags who did this.

LiveLeak.com - Beheading in Woolwich, UK - British Soldier Dead (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d0f_1369235265)

YellowFever
23 May 13,, 03:16
Rip.

snapper
23 May 13,, 04:30
32970

The Lady speaking this chap is apparently a "cub scout leader".

Woolwich terrorist attack: woman who confronted terrorists (http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/woolwich-terrorist-attack-woman-who-confronted-terrorists)

antimony
23 May 13,, 05:49
32970

The Lady speaking this chap is apparently a "cub scout leader".

Woolwich terrorist attack: woman who confronted terrorists (http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/woolwich-terrorist-attack-woman-who-confronted-terrorists)

She seems to have more male ornaments than those folks standing behind

Double Edge
23 May 13,, 06:29
While despicable and gruesome this seems more like a local crime than "terrorism" to me, maybe a hate crime.
This is why...


"I went over to the body where there was a lady sitting there and she said he was dead. She had comforted him by putting something under his back and a jacket over his head. I took his pulse and there was none. I couldn't see the man's face but I could see no evidence that suggested someone had tried to cut off his head. I could see nothing on him to suggest that he was a soldier.

"Then a black guy with a black hat and a revolver in one hand and a cleaver in the other came over. He was very excited and he told me not to get close to the body. I didn't really feel anything. I was not scared because he was not drunk, he was not on drugs. He was normal. I could speak to him and he wanted to speak and that's what we did.

"I spoke to him for more than five minutes. I asked him why he had done what he had done. He said he had killed the man because he [the victim] was a British soldier who killed Muslim women and children in Iraq and Afghanistan. He was furious about the British army being over there.

Woolwich attack: first-person account | Guardian | May 23 2013 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/22/woolwich-first-person-account)

Man kills soldier who fought abroad to protect his people from being attacked at home (!)

No bombs, now its meat cleavers with lone wolf types.

UK is doing pretty well in the terrorism stakes, having busted a dangerous ring earlier :)

cataphract
23 May 13,, 06:29
Who lets in Somali immigrants anyway? :slap:

RIP to the soldier.

tankie
23 May 13,, 13:22
And muslims wonder why they are hated , these bastards who did this in the name of Islam do more harm than they realize , dirty murdering thick fucks burn in hell ,this is the result of twats bliars n browns open door policies , let them all come in ,,, and now the back lash has started and will not stop in London methinks

Yahoo! News UK & Ireland - Latest World News & UK News Headlines (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/woolwich-edl-demo-mosques-attacked-021243145.html;_ylt=ArPlX1hwCSxldrQzmUtxSmi_fMl_;_ ylu=X3oDMTN1a3AwNDZsBG1pdANVSyBob21lIHBhZ2UgbWVnYX Ryb24EcGtnAzFiNDBlOTRmLWM2MjYtM2Q4Mi05OTIwLWQzMTBh ZDdhMzRlMgRwb3MDMwRzZWMDbWVnYXRyb24EdmVyAzU5ZTU2Yz QyLWMzOTQtMTFlMi04ZjNkLTI2NjRiZTM3ZDczMg--;_ylg=X3oDMTJqc21iNHNzBGludGwDZ2IEbGFuZwNlbi1nYgRw c3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3BtaAR0ZXN0A0NvbnRyb2 xfRmxvYXRpbmdNb2R1bGVzX09wdGltaXpl;_ylv=3)

doppelganger
23 May 13,, 14:02
And muslims wonder why they are hated , these bastards who did this in the name of Islam do more harm than they realize , dirty murdering thick fucks burn in hell ,this is the result of twats bliars n browns open door policies , let them all come in ,,, and now the back lash has started and will not stop in London methinks

Yahoo! News UK & Ireland - Latest World News & UK News Headlines (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/woolwich-edl-demo-mosques-attacked-021243145.html;_ylt=ArPlX1hwCSxldrQzmUtxSmi_fMl_;_ ylu=X3oDMTN1a3AwNDZsBG1pdANVSyBob21lIHBhZ2UgbWVnYX Ryb24EcGtnAzFiNDBlOTRmLWM2MjYtM2Q4Mi05OTIwLWQzMTBh ZDdhMzRlMgRwb3MDMwRzZWMDbWVnYXRyb24EdmVyAzU5ZTU2Yz QyLWMzOTQtMTFlMi04ZjNkLTI2NjRiZTM3ZDczMg--;_ylg=X3oDMTJqc21iNHNzBGludGwDZ2IEbGFuZwNlbi1nYgRw c3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3BtaAR0ZXN0A0NvbnRyb2 xfRmxvYXRpbmdNb2R1bGVzX09wdGltaXpl;_ylv=3)

Sorry to say it sir, but from what I have heard about parts of London being mini-Pakistan and stories of UK muslims being more radical than those around the world (and there are some serious radical muslim hot spots globally), you guys like us in India are sitting on a ticking timebomb.

However, we recognize the danger and there is some serious underground steam at the level of common man society begining to develop here. I think it is time the British wake up if you do not want Sharia law governing you within a few decades, as you find yourselves an increasingly marginalized minority in your own land.

I mean if this is not going to open the flodgates, nothing will.

This is an active duty soldier who is beheaded in broad daylight on the streets of your biggest city and capital. And all passerby's were doing were watching from a distance (except that brave woman).

The al Quaida had actually planned something equally horific some years ago after the Danish cartoons on Muhammad. Going into the newspaper office and beheading the editor or cartoonist and throwing the heads on to the street below.

Well, sadly today we have learned that they can actually pull something like that off. In one of the Western world's biggest and most powerful cities no less.

This is not really disgusting, if you get beyond the physical brutality, of which I am sure most military men would have seen a lot more and worse off.

So this is no different, because like it or not, accept it or not, you are in a state of war.

What this is instead is chillingly real. And its not Syria or Afghanistan or Iraq, but London instead.

Doktor
23 May 13,, 14:13
DG,

Your Anti-Islam is amazing. I mean I live in a country where we have two large groups and very tensed relations, but you are awesome.

What's the number of countries with Sharia law, compared to number of Muslim majority countries?

Don't bother to search (as you wont) - it is ~2/5.

And for the record, I am Orthodox Christian. (since i think you will ask).

Agnostic Muslim
23 May 13,, 14:25
And muslims wonder why they are hated , these bastards who did this in the name of Islam do more harm than they realize , dirty murdering thick fucks burn in hell ...


Do you think that line of thinking applies on the 'other' side as well, considering the prevalence of incidents such as the ones quoted below?

... a C.I.A.-operated drone dropped Hellfire missiles on Fahim Qureishi’s home in North Waziristan, killing seven of his family members and severely injuring Fahim. He was just 13 years old and left with only one eye, and shrapnel in his stomach.

There was no militant present. A recent book revealed that Mr. Obama was informed about the erroneous target but still did not offer any form of redress, because in 2009, the United States did not acknowledge the existence of its own drone program in Pakistan.

Sadaullah Wazir was another victim of hope and change. His house in North Waziristan was targeted on Sept. 7, 2009. The strike killed four members of his family. Sadaullah was 14 years old when it happened. A few days after the attack, he woke up in a Peshawar hospital to the news that both of his legs had to be amputated and he would never be able to walk again. He died last year, without receiving justice or even an apology. Once again, no militant was present or killed.

Mr. Obama is scheduled to deliver a major speech on drones at the National Defense University today. He is likely to tell his fellow Americans that drones are precise and effective at killing militants.

But his words will be little consolation for 8-year-old Nabila, who, on Oct. 24, had just returned from school and was playing in a field outside her house with her siblings and cousins while her grandmother picked flowers. At 2:30 p.m., a Hellfire missile came out of the sky and struck right in front of Nabila. Her grandmother was badly burned and succumbed to her injuries; Nabila survived with severe burns and shrapnel wounds in her shoulder.

Nabila doesn’t know who Mr. Obama is, or where the Hellfire missile that killed her grandmother came from. As she grows older, she will learn about the idea of justice. But how will she be able to grasp it if she herself has been denied this basic right?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/23/opinion/the-forgotten-victims-of-obamas-drone-war.html

tankie
23 May 13,, 14:41
Nice aint they , A/M note i said they cause more harm than good , and this happened in the UK not USA , same as the tube bombers etc .Broad daylight

Police trying 2 disperse 100s of Muslims on Victoria st Oldham from celebrating the murder of British soldier. Report that @GranadaReports : scordo1965 (http://inagist.com/all/337513409622982656/)

They like the welfare benefits here i bet .

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=171331263031427

Dante
23 May 13,, 14:42
RIP to that poor soldier.


DG,

Your Anti-Islam is amazing. I mean I live in a country where we have two large groups and very tensed relations, but you are awesome.

What's the number of countries with Sharia law, compared to number of Muslim majority countries?

Don't bother to search (as you wont) - it is ~2/5.

And for the record, I am Orthodox Christian. (since i think you will ask).

Dok, double is exaggerating a lot, but your Muslims are a different "breed" than the ones in UK (as in they integrate in society and are of the same race/culture), not to mention that our history with Islam/ Muslims isn't any bright spot in world peace and unity ...:biggrin:

@ Agnostic, what you are doing is low. Mistakes will happen in war, but what happened in London was no mistake, trying to justify is just wrong..also, there is a saying, "when you sleep with dogs you get flees", that applies to the drone campaing

doppelganger
23 May 13,, 14:43
DG,

Your Anti-Islam is amazing. I mean I live in a country where we have two large groups and very tensed relations, but you are awesome.

What's the number of countries with Sharia law, compared to number of Muslim majority countries?

Don't bother to search (as you wont) - it is ~2/5.

And for the record, I am Orthodox Christian. (since i think you will ask).

Let me see .....

Two muslim men decapitate a non-muslim male in the ritual Islamic manner while shouting Allahu Akbar (Allah is Great).

But reacting to it and calling it what it is, Islamic savagery, is anti-Islam?

If someone were to catch hold of a person and burn him (preferably her) at the stake incanting verses from the Bible, would calling it Christian savagery deem me anti-Christian?

Why is it wrong or not poitically correct in your Western world to call a spade a spade ?

You think you are being fair to the innocent Muslims?

You are condemning them to the full force of the storm of resentment brewing across the world, as you fail to confront the problem and give it its due name.

tankie
23 May 13,, 14:47
Not all muslims are terrorists , but MOST terrorists are muslims , there is going to be a massive revenge backlash here , parliament is on holiday but sections are being recalled .

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=602938519718100&set=a.243378289007460.71744.213085425370080&type=1&ref=nf

Doktor
23 May 13,, 15:05
Let me see .....
OK


Two muslim men decapitate a non-muslim male in the ritual Islamic manner while shouting Allahu Akbar (Allah is Great).

But reacting to it and calling it what it is, Islamic savagery, is anti-Islam?

If someone were to catch hold of a person and burn him (preferably her) at the stake incanting verses from the Bible, would calling it Christian savagery deem me anti-Christian?
We have nice names for Christians going looney - member of "X-wing radical group". See the difference?


Why is it wrong or not poitically correct in your Western world to call a spade a spade ?
Because you try to paint a whole group (~1.6 billion) based on doings of few (hundred or even thousand) people.


You think you are being fair to the innocent Muslims?
I try to be fair with everyone. And also try to not prejudice.


You are condemning them to the full force of the storm of resentment brewing across the world, as you fail to confront the problem and give it its due name.
???

chanjyj
23 May 13,, 15:11
Doktor, forget it.

doppelganger
23 May 13,, 15:13
We have nice names for Christians going looney - member of "X-wing radical group". See the difference?

Its a matter of prevalence. I am sure if the two of us would be living in the medieval ages, the terminology would have been different. That is if I could escape you in time.


Because you try to paint a whole group (~1.6 billion) based on doings of few (hundred or even thousand) people.

Tankie said it perfectly. Not all Muslims are terrorists. But most terrorists are muslims. And do not kid yourself about the numbers you are putting out here. We would have a a few hundred to a thousand in a mid sized Indian muslim-heavy city. A normal Indian city has a population larger than Macedonia incidentally (see, I can Google when I try).


I try to be fair with everyone. And also try to not prejudice.

You are naive. Thats what you are. And when you pull your head out of the sand, hope that its still attached to the torso, as the crescent scimitar spreads farther across the planet.

Agnostic Muslim
23 May 13,, 15:15
Mistakes will happen in war,
Without a transparent investigation into drone/air attacks carried out in violation of international law, involving a public release of all data, records, transcripts, communication etc. related to the attacks, the massacres of innocent civilians can't merely be excused as 'mistakes'.

Dante
23 May 13,, 15:20
Without a transparent investigation into drone/air attacks carried out in violation of international law, involving a public release of all data, records, transcripts, communication etc. related to the attacks, the massacres of innocent civilians can't merely be excused as 'mistakes'.

Be logical, ofcourse they are mistakes. If they wanted to kill civilians on purpose or didn't care a lot one way or the other you would see Grozny repeated all over Pakistan, and nobody could or would want to stop them.

Agnostic Muslim
23 May 13,, 15:28
Be logical, ofcourse they are mistakes.
Sure, but trying to excuse/justify mistakes with comments such as 'you'll get fleas after lying with dogs' does not support the argument of 'mistakes' or suggest any remorse or regret about the massacres of innocents, which ties into Tankie's comments.

Agnostic Muslim
23 May 13,, 15:31
But most terrorists are muslims.

In which time-frame and under what definition? Did you and Tankie do a thorough calculation and comparison between the number of 'non-Muslim terrorists' in Ireland, Latin America, Africa, Asia, Europe and the 'Muslim terrorists'?

chanjyj
23 May 13,, 15:32
Tankie said it perfectly. Not all Muslims are terrorists. But most terrorists are muslims. And do not kid yourself about the numbers you are putting out here. We would have a a few hundred to a thousand in a mid sized Indian muslim-heavy city. A normal Indian city has a population larger than Macedonia incidentally (see, I can Google when I try).

Think about the IRA, LTTE,Nepal Maoists, RUF and shitloads more before you keep posting dribble.

doppelganger
23 May 13,, 15:33
I am often accused of this by members here.

Why is Agnostic derailing this thread with his pet rant on drones and the UN?

Can the mods please keep this thread on track.

Will be greatly appreciated.

Its disgusting to find people being apologists for such barbaric behavior.

We saw the same thing on other forums when our soldiers were beheaded recently, with everything from mythical mass graves and non existent civilian rapes being dragged in.

doppelganger
23 May 13,, 15:35
Think about the IRA, LTTE,Nepal Maoists, RUF and shitloads more before you keep posting dribble.

You need to learn some manners before I frame a reply to your posts.

Agnostic Muslim
23 May 13,, 15:36
Why is Agnostic derailing this thread with his pet rant on drones and the UN?


And how exactly are Tankie and your comments making derogatory generalizations about all Muslims based on this one attack not a derailment of the thread? If you want to extrapolate from this one incident and demonize and denigrate an entire community, then pulling in examples of 'Western atrocities' to highlight the flaws in your position is justified.

doppelganger
23 May 13,, 15:40
In which time-frame and under what definition? Did you and Tankie do a thorough calculation and comparison between the number of 'non-Muslim terrorists' in Ireland, Latin America, Africa, Asia, Europe and the 'Muslim terrorists'?

Man please .....

You (as in Muslims) have a problem with Hindus.

You (as in Muslims) have a problem with Christians.

You (as in Muslims) have a problem with Jews.

You (as in Muslims) have a problem with Chinese.

You (as in Muslims) have a problem with Buddhists.

Is there any faith in the world you do not have a violent problem with?

But sure, for the apologists with their heads in the sand, its all of these who have a problem with the Muslims.

Must be their fault!

Agnostic Muslim
23 May 13,, 15:49
Man please .....


You didn't answer my questions:

"In which time-frame and under what definition? Did you and Tankie do a thorough calculation and comparison between the number of 'non-Muslim terrorists' in Ireland, Latin America, Africa, Asia, Europe and the 'Muslim terrorists'?"

doppelganger
23 May 13,, 15:56
You didn't answer my questions:

"In which time-frame and under what definition? Did you and Tankie do a thorough calculation and comparison between the number of 'non-Muslim terrorists' in Ireland, Latin America, Africa, Asia, Europe and the 'Muslim terrorists'?"

I am not qualified to take on apologist wordsmiths with barely concealed leanings that are apologist at best, bordering on connivance at worst. I am really tired of reading your wordy posts man.

I am a simple farmer's boy. I have very clear education on what is right and what is wrong, and the head of a buffalo.

tankie
23 May 13,, 15:57
And how exactly are Tankie and your comments making derogatory generalizations about all Muslims based on this one attack not a derailment of the thread? If you want to extrapolate from this one incident and demonize and denigrate an entire community, then pulling in examples of 'Western atrocities' to highlight the flaws in your position is justified.

Which part of MOST is baffling you , yes there are other factions , IRA etc , but we are not talking about them , we are discussing the muslim terrorist attacks .Thats why i said MOST because at the moment its muslims who are active , not all , i have some great muslim friends in Egypt who are just as pissed off with whats happening in their name , you can try and defend them all you like ( and i know its the none terrorist ones , and so do I ) but shit is starting to stick , on F/B its going wild , its heading towards a new crystal nachte ,and thats sad , innocents will get hurt , but i bet a pound to a cent a lot of innocents know who the radicals are and do sweet f/a to stop them .

doppelganger
23 May 13,, 16:01
but i bet a pound to a cent a lot of innocents know who the radicals are and do sweet f/a to stop them .

1) You are 100% right.

2) It makes them far from innocent.

Doktor
23 May 13,, 16:07
1) You are 100% right.

2) It makes them far from innocent.

What will you do to protect them later. They don't feel safe to help.

doppelganger
23 May 13,, 16:10
What will you do to protect them later. They don't feel safe to help.

Now I am responsible for their safety from their own?

Man ...... :slap: (this is the closest I can find to a facepalm in the smilies)

Agnostic Muslim
23 May 13,, 16:12
but i bet a pound to a cent a lot of innocents know who the radicals are and do sweet f/a to stop them .
Based on what?

Doktor
23 May 13,, 16:12
Well, it is one of the foremost duties of any Government. To protect their citizens.

Agnostic Muslim
23 May 13,, 16:14
Thats why i said MOST because at the moment its muslims who are active , not all ,

Here is one way to present your point without it being misinterpreted, "most terrorist attacks in the UK/Europe currently are by Islamist extremists'.

Agnostic Muslim
23 May 13,, 16:17
I have very clear education on what is right and what is wrong, and the head of a buffalo.
Given the degree of derogatory generalizations in your post, I strongly disagree with your claim that you 'have a very clear education on what is right and what is wrong', though that same content would support the latter part of of your post about buffalo's and what not ...

Doktor
23 May 13,, 16:17
Here is one way to present your point without it being misinterpreted, "most terrorist attacks in the UK/Europe currently are by Islamist extremists'.

And then you wonder why so often you are being asked if you are a lawyer :)

chanjyj
23 May 13,, 16:18
I'm out of this thread. Had enough bullshit for a day without the need for more.

Bigfella
23 May 13,, 16:22
I was hoping this thread would be a place to express regret at the brutal murder of an off duty soldier by two evil religious fanatics. Instead we are having a name calling contest. Classy stuff.

My thoughts are with the man's family. No one should meet their end in such a fashion. Sort of wish the guys had been killed.

Perhaps we can limit Agnostic Muslim & Doppelganger to one thread where they can just yell at each other while the rest of us get on with things.

doppelganger
23 May 13,, 16:22
Well, it is one of the foremost duties of any Government. To protect their citizens.

Citizens have duties too. Its never a one way street.

You cannot protect someone who never comes forward.

Agnostic Muslim
23 May 13,, 16:22
And then you wonder why so often you are being asked if you are a lawyer :)

lol - now that you mention it, it is entirely possible that I perhaps read a little too much into the intent behind a post based on the wording used.

That said, my interactions with Chogy and USSWisconsin have been more productive because, I believe, they understand why I question some of their posts and they subsequently clarify the intent (or vice versa) without acrimony.

tankie
23 May 13,, 16:23
Based on what?

based on the fact its still going on , and im willing to take that bet , in every community worlwide people know who the baddies are tonto.

Agnostic Muslim
23 May 13,, 16:24
Perhaps we can limit Agnostic Muslim & Doppelganger to one thread where they can just yell at each other while the rest of us get on with things.
I don't really see how pointing out Doppelganger's derogatory generalizations about Muslims constitutes 'yelling'.

Agnostic Muslim
23 May 13,, 16:26
based on the fact its still going on , and im willing to take that bet , in every community worlwide people know who the baddies are tonto.
I am sure there are innocent residents of crime-ridden neighborhoods who are aware of criminal activity but do not speak out because of various reasons - this is not a phenomenon limited to Muslim communities alone.

Dante
23 May 13,, 16:26
Sure, but trying to excuse/justify mistakes with comments such as 'you'll get fleas after lying with dogs' does not support the argument of 'mistakes' or suggest any remorse or regret about the massacres of innocents, which ties into Tankie's comments.

Dude, the USA doesn't really have to justify/excuse/provide anything to Pakistan, and considering what's happening I tend to think they are rather moderate. Others would certainly not show so much restraint.

Don't like it, clean your act. Don't want to, go to war. Choose none and have the current situation, when the air strikes happen and innocents die along with the terrorists that their community supports.

tankie
23 May 13,, 16:26
What will you do to protect them later. They don't feel safe to help.

Nowt wrong with anonymous phone calls Dok , ;)

doppelganger
23 May 13,, 16:27
I don't really see how pointing out Doppelganger's derogatory generalizations about Muslims constitutes 'yelling'.

He's clubbing you to take yet another swipe at me. Don't mind it.

Chogy
23 May 13,, 16:29
Gents - Stay on topic. Focus on this particular incident. There is always an initial emotionally-charged response when something like this happens. Stay civil and keep your collective cool.

tankie
23 May 13,, 16:29
I am sure there are innocent residents of crime-ridden neighborhoods who are aware of criminal activity but do not speak out because of various reasons - this is not a phenomenon limited to Muslim communities alone.


True but we are discussing muslim issues , like i said to Dok , anonymous phone calls will help .;)

Agnostic Muslim
23 May 13,, 16:30
Dude, the USA doesn't really have to justify/excuse/provide anything to Pakistan, and considering what's happening I tend to think they are rather moderate. Others would certainly not show so much restraint.

Don't like it, clean your act. Don't want to, go to war. Choose none and have the current situation, when the air strikes happen and innocents die along with the terrorists that their community supports.
How about rephrasing your comments from the perspective of extremists:

Dude, Al Qaeda doesn't really have to justify/excuse/provide anything to the US/UK/West, and considering what's happening I tend to think they are rather moderate. Others would certainly not show so much restraint.

Don't like it, clean your act. Don't want to, go to war. Choose none and have the current situation, when the Al Qaeda attacks happen and innocents die along with the terrorists that their community supports.

How are you any different from Al Qaeda extremists?

Agnostic Muslim
23 May 13,, 16:33
True but we are discussing muslim issues , like i said to Dok , anonymous phone calls will help .;)
I am pointing out to you that 'Muslim issues' tend to be similar to the 'issues' in most communities.

It is not realistic to expect every individual (Muslim or non-Muslim) to report suspicious activity.

tankie
23 May 13,, 16:37
Its just been pointed out that the 2 killers were known by the cops ??

tankie
23 May 13,, 16:39
I am pointing out to you that 'Muslim issues' tend to be similar to the 'issues' in most communities.

It is not realistic to expect every individual (Muslim or non-Muslim) to report suspicious activity.

Ok .well I would report and question suspicious activity , but there again , im ex military with a natural suspicious mind and I like to think a valued member of the community and country as a whole , but thats just me .:)

Dante
23 May 13,, 16:43
How about rephrasing your comments from the perspective of extremists:

Dude, Al Qaeda doesn't really have to justify/excuse/provide anything to the US/UK/West, and considering what's happening I tend to think they are rather moderate. Others would certainly not show so much restraint.

Don't like it, clean your act. Don't want to, go to war. Choose none and have the current situation, when the Al Qaeda attacks happen and innocents die along with the terrorists that their community supports.

How are you any different from Al Qaeda extremists?

Ok, I'll bite : nobody cares about what Al-Q think, they are not moderate and are already at war with everyone else.

Why is the West different? Well, most importantly, they can stomp you back to the middle ages for attacking them, and don't do it ( I'm sure you would do the same if the table would turn, right?)

doppelganger
23 May 13,, 16:51
they can stomp you back to the middle ages

I have some confusion regarding the word bolded.

On the rest I am in total concurrence.

Agnostic Muslim
23 May 13,, 16:54
Ok, I'll bite : nobody cares about what Al-Q think, they are not moderate and are already at war with everyone else.

Why is the West different? Well, most importantly, they can stomp you back to the middle ages for attacking them, and don't do it ( I'm sure you would do the same if the table would turn, right?)

You are arguing 'difference' based on 'capability' rather than 'intent' - I am arguing similarity based on 'intent'.

It is 'intent' that defines our actions, and no, I would not justify the massacres of innocents on the 'other side' by equating them to 'dogs infested with fleas'.

Doktor
23 May 13,, 16:55
Its just been pointed out that the 2 killers were known by the cops ??

Tankie, it is not unusual minor criminals to turn serial killers (trust me, been a "Criminal Minds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Minds)" junkie at one point of time).

TopHatter
23 May 13,, 16:56
Perhaps we can limit Agnostic Muslim & Doppelganger to one thread where they can just yell at each other while the rest of us get on with things.

That could be the needed solution.

People, keep the thread on subject. If you want to rant, start a blog.

tankie
23 May 13,, 17:03
Tankie, it is not unusual minor criminals to turn serial killers (trust me, been a "Criminal Minds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Minds)" junkie at one point of time).

Soz m8 , i meant known by security services .

Officer of Engineers
23 May 13,, 17:05
Present Arms. Put the two fucks in General Population.

Dante
23 May 13,, 17:06
You are arguing 'difference' based on 'capability' rather than 'intent' - I am arguing similarity based on 'intent'.

It is 'intent' that defines our actions, and no, I would not justify the massacres of innocents on the 'other side' by equating them to 'dogs infested with fleas'.

Edit: nevermind, we are off topic and won't engage further in this discussion here.

Again, condolences to the family of the victim, RIP

hammer
23 May 13,, 17:07
The jihadis have crossed the red line this time in UK with this barbaric act. This doesn't bode well for the muslim community in UK. They don't have anyone but themselves to blame for the consequences. They are going to pay the price for letting the "fundamentalists" spread their evil ideology amongst them. My condolences to the family of the victim. RIP.

tankie
23 May 13,, 17:09
Present Arms. Put the two fucks in General Population.

Succinct as usual Col , the err 2 gentlemen in Q are in hospital under armed guard receiving health care, bless em huh . :mad:

doppelganger
23 May 13,, 17:10
The guy brandishing the cleavers in the video is a UK born muslim convert.

Converted to Islam in a UK mosque around 10 years ago.

So I guess when he says "you will continue to pay for what you are doing to us" he means "us muslims" in general and no nationality or people in particular.

tankie
23 May 13,, 17:14
A/M on the beeb just , was a muslim leader explaining how they work with the security services and have helped foil attacks , I believe him , ;)

Doktor
23 May 13,, 17:15
Soz m8 , i meant known by security services .

They make huge lists these days. Very hard to track everything.

Not defending them, just observing.

doppelganger
23 May 13,, 17:15
A/M on the beeb just , was a muslim leader explaining how they work with the security services and have helped foil attacks , I believe him , ;)

Your country is the safer for it.

hammer
23 May 13,, 17:16
I think I am beginning to understand why the Chinese have such an iron grip over religious institutions. They simply turn human beings into "murdering zombies".

doppelganger
23 May 13,, 17:18
I think I am beginning to understand why the Chinese have such an iron grip over religious institutions. They simply turn human beings into "murdering zombies".

Sir sorry for the OT (TopHatter sir) but I simply MUST ask.

Is that Mr. Bean in your avatar? :red:

hammer
23 May 13,, 17:21
Is that Mr. Bean in your avatar? :red:

Yep, Osama "fcking 72 virgins in heaven" bean laden.

Officer of Engineers
23 May 13,, 17:22
Succinct as usual Col , the err 2 gentlemen in Q are in hospital under armed guard receiving health care, bless em huh . :mad:Good. I want them as healthy as possible so that they feel everything coming their way.

Chogy
23 May 13,, 17:33
Good. I want them as healthy as possible so that they feel everything coming their way.

Unfortunately, they will be well-guarded, and get three hots and a cot for life. And a Quran, of course.

I prefer Ye Olde England, whereby these two would be drawn and quartered inside of a week.

Bigfella
23 May 13,, 17:36
A/M on the beeb just , was a muslim leader explaining how they work with the security services and have helped foil attacks , I believe him , ;)

He is probably telling the truth Tankie. It is pretty commonplace for the security services in Australia & the US to have contacts in the Islamic Community - not just 'moles', but leaders etc. - who pass on info about people who are particularly worrying. I am aware of attacks in the US & Australia that have been foiled in the planning stage as a result of info from within the Islamic community. Info also helps build up profiles on people, who they associate with etc. No reason to believe the UK is any different. Won't get every crazy, but will get quite a few.

Officer of Engineers
23 May 13,, 17:48
Unfortunately, they will be well-guarded, and get three hots and a cot for life. And a Quran, of course.

I prefer Ye Olde England, whereby these two would be drawn and quartered inside of a week.The worst fate I had ever imagined was two cuts. The spinal chord and the vocal chord, leaving the man in an iron lung for the rest of his life and he can't speak a word.

Outside of that, solitary for life comes next. Boredom is a torture unequal to any other.

Doktor
23 May 13,, 18:14
The worst fate I had ever imagined was two cuts. The spinal chord and the vocal chord, leaving the man in an iron lung for the rest of his life and he can't speak a word.

Outside of that, solitary for life comes next. Boredom is a torture unequal to any other.

They sound compatible, do #1, heal, then go for #2. Sounds about just, eh?

Officer of Engineers
23 May 13,, 18:23
Never heard you can recovered from a cut spinal chord. You have to spend the rest of your life in an iron lung.

Doktor
23 May 13,, 18:32
Recover? Who said anything about recovery?

So, it is a solitary after all.

Anyway, I misread you totally. Somehow I thought you are talking vocal cords removal. Don't ask.

Firestorm
23 May 13,, 18:39
RIP to the soldier and condolences to his family and friends.

I hope this makes the Brits rethink getting rid of the death penalty.

USSWisconsin
23 May 13,, 18:51
Perhaps they should be beheaded? They could be hung with a fine steel cable. Using an elevator shaft, like the Nuremberg executions, let them drop about 2 floors with a 1 1/4 floor length of 1/8" SS wire cable around their necks. If the head doesn't come off, the executioner can use a claymore sword to remove it.

Pedicabby
23 May 13,, 19:04
Perhaps they should be beheaded? They could be hung with a fine steel cable. Using an elevator shaft, like the Nuremberg executions, let them drop about 2 floors with a 1 1/4 floor length of 1/8" SS wire cable around their necks. If the head doesn't come off, the executioner can use a claymore sword to remove it.


I think that's a wonderful idea.

Double Edge
23 May 13,, 20:33
He is probably telling the truth Tankie. It is pretty commonplace for the security services in Australia & the US to have contacts in the Islamic Community - not just 'moles', but leaders etc. - who pass on info about people who are particularly worrying. I am aware of attacks in the US & Australia that have been foiled in the planning stage as a result of info from within the Islamic community. Info also helps build up profiles on people, who they associate with etc. No reason to believe the UK is any different. Won't get every crazy, but will get quite a few.
This is what i was referring to when they busted a ring recently in the UK.

Very good work.

Keep this rate up and the only radicals left will be under cover cops :biggrin:

What this thread needs ?

Images of British public showing solidarity with the army.

Come on you facebook monsters :tongue:

Show us some defiance.

antimony
23 May 13,, 20:46
I continue to doubt on whether this is "terrorism" or just a stupid hate crime, but I can say this - this lady is awesome

Mum talked down Woolwich terrorists who told her: 'We want to start a war in London tonight' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10074881/Mum-talked-down-Woolwich-terrorists-who-told-her-We-want-to-start-a-war-in-London-tonight.html)

Extract

Exclusive: A cub scout leader confronted terrorists just seconds after they had beheaded a soldier asking them to hand over their weapons and warning them: "It is only you versus many people, you are going to lose."

doppelganger
23 May 13,, 20:49
I thought the UK cops don't carry guns. Then how did the cops have guns? Eve saw a couple with automatic rifles.

Parihaka
23 May 13,, 20:52
32970

The Lady speaking this chap is apparently a "cub scout leader".

Woolwich terrorist attack: woman who confronted terrorists (http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/woolwich-terrorist-attack-woman-who-confronted-terrorists)

This woman is full of awesomeness

Parihaka
23 May 13,, 20:57
Now I am responsible for their safety.....
Yes, you are. That's if you wish to claim to being a free man.

cataphract
23 May 13,, 20:59
More than a "Muslim" problem, this is a European problem. You guys have naively let in the worst scum from every continent as refugees under the name of humanitarianism. This is the result of importing Mirpuri peasants, Jamaican drug dealers, Russian oligarchs and Somali refugees. Your immigration policies have failed you in every case. Now the warped ideologies that come with these people are spreading amongst the general populace. Just look at the difference between the Pakistani community in USA and the one in UK. One is made up of doctors, engineers, etc while the other is mostly unemployed welfare leeches with massive birthrates.

cataphract
23 May 13,, 21:00
This is what i was referring to when they busted a ring recently in the UK.

Very good work.

Keep this rate up and the only radicals left will be under cover cops :biggrin:

What this thread needs ?

Images of British public showing solidarity with the army.

Come on you facebook monsters :tongue:

Show us some defiance.


The recent arrest of two terrorist plotters in Canada was enabled by the active reporting of the local mosque's imam.

antimony
23 May 13,, 21:02
I thought the UK cops don't carry guns. Then how did the cops have guns? Eve saw a couple with automatic rifles.

The regular patrolmen don't but just like us there are armed units. Of course, they have moved off from the .303 Lee Enfields to the H&K MP5s, at least the ones that I have seen.

They are some of the most helpful cops out there, the regular patrolmen that is.

antimony
23 May 13,, 21:04
The recent arrest of two terrorist plotters in Canada was enabled by the active reporting of the local mosque's imam.

Good for him

Totally OT, but this is why I hope that Middle east kingdoms and Sheikhdoms become irrelevant soon, so that their Wahabi hate stops spreading around and the kinder and gentler sufi streams get a chance

cataphract
23 May 13,, 21:14
Good for him

Totally OT, but this is why I hope that Middle east kingdoms and Sheikhdoms become irrelevant soon, so that their Wahabi hate stops spreading around and the kinder and gentler sufi streams get a chance

I only wish this were true :frown: Unfortunately, the Saudis don't plan on becoming irrelevant soon. The best we can hope for is religious evolution in Saudi itself. Btw, the Deobandis in India aren't slouches either when it comes to extremely conservative Islam and stupid fatwas.

Double Edge
23 May 13,, 22:20
I continue to doubt on whether this is "terrorism" or just a stupid hate crime,
Insurgent tactic is to attack agents of the state. If they had a problem with the british army they should have been in the countries fighting where said army was deployed.

This one was to send a message to the british public not to deploy. Now if locals overreact the perps get a free boost. If nothing happens then they lost.

Am not a supporter of terms like hate-anything.


but I can say this - this lady is awesome
Amazing how laid back she was about it. The perps did not mind her at all.

Chogy
23 May 13,, 22:38
Amazing how laid back she was about it. The perps did not mind her at all.

I am very glad she came through OK, and am impressed by her bravery, BUT...

If I were her husband, I'd ask her "What in God's name were you thinking!!?? You are insane! Leave the crazed, armed murderers to the police. That is their job!"

Double Edge
23 May 13,, 23:17
If I were her husband, I'd ask her "What in God's name were you thinking!!?? You are insane! Leave the crazed, armed murderers to the police. That is their job!"
Crazier than the perps :biggrin:

Rustic country cool.

notorious_eagle
23 May 13,, 23:40
My sincere Condolences, RIP to the brave soldier and prayers that God gives strength to his family and loved ones to cope with this unbearable loss.


Not all muslims are terrorists , but MOST terrorists are muslims , there is going to be a massive revenge backlash here , parliament is on holiday but sections are being recalled .

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=602938519718100&set=a.243378289007460.71744.213085425370080&type=1&ref=nf

I was in Manchester 2 weeks ago and attended the local mosque for Friday prayers. The Imam was spilling so much hate and venom, it left me stunned. And i live in Pakistan for God's sake, i haven't seen this many radicalized people back in my home city of Lahore as much as i saw in the UK.

Double Edge
24 May 13,, 00:02
I was in Manchester 2 weeks ago and attended the local mosque for Friday prayers.
Where in Manchester ?


The Imam was spilling so much hate and venom, it left me stunned. And i live in Pakistan for God's sake, i haven't seen this many radicalized people back in my home city of Lahore as much as i saw in the UK.
About what ?

honeypot :)

doppelganger
24 May 13,, 06:53
I am very glad she came through OK, and am impressed by her bravery, BUT...

If I were her husband, I'd ask her "What in God's name were you thinking!!?? You are insane! Leave the crazed, armed murderers to the police. That is their job!"

I have a feeling with a wife like that at home the husband would not be much of a laying down the law reading out the riot act type. :pari:

notorious_eagle
24 May 13,, 15:19
Where in Manchester ?

In West Didsbury


About what ?

honeypot :)

How the WOT is on War on Islam, Zionists planning to control the World, Muslims being discriminated everywhere and bla bla bla

On Topic

http://s9.postimg.org/7ljui54in/254192_10152795414895012_1435599075_n.jpg (http://postimage.org/)


The attacker with Anjum Chaudhary, surprise surprise.

Pedicabby
24 May 13,, 15:33
I thought I would post this.

Ajmal Masroor Sky News Interview - Woolwich Terrorist Attack - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00WRRD7Yud4)

Double Edge
24 May 13,, 15:51
In West Didsbury
Decent area.


How the WOT is on War on Islam, Zionists planning to control the World, Muslims being discriminated everywhere and bla bla bla
Standard fare, why an Imam would sink to this level in Didsbury is surprising.


The attacker with Anjum Chaudhary, surprise surprise.
Nice one. Now lets see what happens to Anjum.

Professional rabble rouser, he's been discussed here before.

Double Edge
24 May 13,, 16:05
I thought I would post this.

Ajmal Masroor Sky News Interview - Woolwich Terrorist Attack - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00WRRD7Yud4)
The point that he made about participating in the political process is what stuck out for me.

If you're going to dissent with national policy there are many ways to do it in a democracy. Was just thinking about under a million march they had in Hyde park in 2003 over Iraq.

1980s
24 May 13,, 18:32
Sorry to say it sir, but from what I have heard about parts of London being mini-Pakistan and stories of UK muslims being more radical than those around the world (and there are some serious radical muslim hot spots globally), you guys like us in India are sitting on a ticking timebomb.

No, thats not correct at all. London has more mini India's, not mini Pakistan's. There are far more Indian immigrants and illegal migrants living in London than there are from any other ethnic minority group.


However, we recognize the danger and there is some serious underground steam at the level of common man society begining to develop here. I think it is time the British wake up if you do not want Sharia law governing you within a few decades, as you find yourselves an increasingly marginalized minority in your own land.

There is absolutely no threat of Shari'a law ever being imposed on Britain.

And considering that you're an Indian this is one of the most sly, weasel like comments ive read for awhile. If its ever to going to happen (altho of course it wont) white Britons would be reduced to a 'marginalized minority in their own land' by Indians before anyone or anything else. In fact, white Britons in London have already been 'reduced to a minority in their own land' by Indian immigrants in several parts of the city. And the trend is, when Indians start moving into an area here, whites tend to move out.

The type of two-faced 'demographic threat' scaremongering game you're trying to play in reality, is not about Islam per se, as much as it is about race and the associated cultures. Which, in the case of you being an Indian, is highly ironic for obvious reasons.

1980s
24 May 13,, 18:45
More than a "Muslim" problem, this is a European problem. You guys have naively let in the worst scum from every continent as refugees under the name of humanitarianism. This is the result of importing Mirpuri peasants, Jamaican drug dealers, Russian oligarchs and Somali refugees. Your immigration policies have failed you in every case. Now the warped ideologies that come with these people are spreading amongst the general populace. Just look at the difference between the Pakistani community in USA and the one in UK. One is made up of doctors, engineers, etc while the other is mostly unemployed welfare leeches with massive birthrates.

Really? The biggest ethnic minority groups are usually made up of migrant workers from former British, French etc colonies and their descendants, not refugees. And thats to do with capitalism and globalization, not humanitarianism. Past colonial histories notwithstanding.

Firestorm
24 May 13,, 19:36
No, thats not correct at all. London has more mini India's, not mini Pakistan's. There are far more Indian immigrants and illegal migrants living in London than there are from any other ethnic minority group.

There is absolutely no threat of Shari'a law ever being imposed on Britain.

And considering that you're an Indian this is one of the most sly, weasel like comments ive read for awhile. If its ever to going to happen (altho of course it wont) white Britons would be reduced to a 'marginalized minority in their own land' by Indians before anyone or anything else. In fact, white Britons in London have already been 'reduced to a minority in their own land' by Indian immigrants in several parts of the city. And the trend is, when Indians start moving into an area here, whites tend to move out.

The type of two-faced 'demographic threat' scaremongering game you're trying to play in reality, is not about Islam per se, as much as it is about race and the associated cultures. Which, in the case of you being an Indian, is highly ironic for obvious reasons.

You are absolutely right. The Indian immigrants are the real threat, with their involvement in terrorist plots, grooming young British girls for sex, demonstrating against the British army for fighting in Afghanistan, starting riots, moral policing in areas dominated by them, their kids traveling to India for terrorist training, etc. The worst I tell you.

antimony
24 May 13,, 19:41
No, thats not correct at all. London has more mini India's, not mini Pakistan's. There are far more Indian immigrants and illegal migrants living in London than there are from any other ethnic minority group.



I don't know about London, I just visited the place, never lived there

However, "oop north" in places like Bradford, Leeds and Halifax I saw more Pakistani (Mirpuri) enclaves than Indian. Also, there is a fair bit of dynamism in the Indian community. While there are older, pre-colonial migrants who are probably in the same socioeconomic boat as the other South Asian communities, there is a new wave of educated professional class Indians from IT driven globalization, similar to what is happening in the USA. They tend to move into the middle class suburbs around London, as far as I have seen.

antimony
24 May 13,, 19:48
If its ever to going to happen (altho of course it wont) white Britons would be reduced to a 'marginalized minority in their own land' by Indians before anyone or anything else. In fact, white Britons in London have already been 'reduced to a minority in their own land' by Indian immigrants in several parts of the city. And the trend is, when Indians start moving into an area here, whites tend to move out.


This certainly does not happen in the US, and with the new wave of the Indian professional class immigration, I would find this hard to believe too. Also, I have not seen the Indian communities anywhere actively protest against the host country, unlike folks like Anjem Choudhary. Why, when the USCIS took a hardstance against immigration from India, the Indian groups and communities started sending bunches of flowers in a show of "Gandhigiri" to convince them otherwise.

tankie
24 May 13,, 20:17
There is absolutely no threat of Shari'a law ever being imposed on Britain..

It is practiced in the UK , but blind eyes get turned , and with arseholes like carey (ex archbishop of Canterbury ) condoning it we are slowly but surely being taken over .THE ENEMY WITHIN. And the somalians are amongst the worst law breakers here , b,liar n brown the clown along with mandelslime open door policies are to blame ,,wankers.

1980s
24 May 13,, 21:24
You are absolutely right. The Indian immigrants are the real threat, with their involvement in terrorist plots, grooming young British girls for sex, demonstrating against the British army for fighting in Afghanistan, starting riots, moral policing in areas dominated by them, their kids traveling to India for terrorist training, etc. The worst I tell you.

Im sorry, but Indians, Tamils, Sihks, Hindus whatever all have their share of much of the above and other criminal or communal behaviour that does not conform with British standards, interests or socio-cultural norms, and also behaviour that some try to associate exclusively with Islam even though the former can also all be guilty of it too like:

'Moral policing' and religious extremism / intolerance: Militant Sikhs ruin wedding after barricading temple | The Sun |News (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4411170/Militant-Sikhs-ruin-wedding-after-barricading-temple.html), BBC News - Sikh weddings crashed by protesters objecting to mixed faith marriages (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21721519), BBC News - Caste discrimination: Campaigners vow to fight for legislation (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22163269)

Honor killings: Mother-in-law 'lured a cheating wife to her death' | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-452270/Mother-law-lured-cheating-wife-death.html), Woman dies hours after she is found mutilated in the street with one hand cut off | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1228561/Woman-dies-hours-mutilated-street-hand-cut-off.html)

Political / religious violence: Asian vs Asian as `Khalistan' row strikes UK - News - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/asian-vs-asian-as-khalistan-row-strikes-uk-1259642.html), BBC NEWS | UK | England | London | Police unit tackles Tamil gangs (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3201465.stm)

Mass illegal immigration / lack of integration / slum building: Slumdogs of Southall | The Sun |Features (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/3873783/Slumdogs-of-Southall.html), BBC News - Arrests after raids on 'slums' in Southall (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-21376253)

etc etc etc

So, my point was simply to point out the irony and two-facedness of doppelganger's post. It didnt need to be read into anymore than that.

1980s
24 May 13,, 21:36
It is practiced in the UK , but blind eyes get turned , and with arseholes like carey (ex archbishop of Canterbury ) condoning it we are slowly but surely being taken over .THE ENEMY WITHIN. And the somalians are amongst the worst law breakers here , b,liar n brown the clown along with mandelslime open door policies are to blame ,,wankers.

By Shari'a law not being a threat to the UK, i meant that it cant be imposed on this country. Muslims account for about 4 or 5% of the population and they are not a monolithic block/community. But you're right, there are Muslim families / communities in Britain that try to run a parallel legal system to settle various disputes. Altho Islam as a political ideology and legal system is increasingly becoming clear that it is not compatible with the West, i tend to see the problems of integration and ghettoization as more to do with race/culture than Islam. Tho political Islam presents an added and more complicated obstacle and threat no doubt.

antimony
24 May 13,, 22:13
Im sorry, but Indians, Tamils, Sihks, Hindus whatever all have their share of much of the above and other criminal or communal behaviour that does not conform with British standards, interests or socio-cultural norms, and also behaviour that some try to associate exclusively with Islam even though the former can also all be guilty of it too like:

'Moral policing' and religious extremism / intolerance: Militant Sikhs ruin wedding after barricading temple | The Sun |News (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4411170/Militant-Sikhs-ruin-wedding-after-barricading-temple.html), BBC News - Sikh weddings crashed by protesters objecting to mixed faith marriages (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21721519), BBC News - Caste discrimination: Campaigners vow to fight for legislation (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22163269)

Honor killings: Mother-in-law 'lured a cheating wife to her death' | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-452270/Mother-law-lured-cheating-wife-death.html), Woman dies hours after she is found mutilated in the street with one hand cut off | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1228561/Woman-dies-hours-mutilated-street-hand-cut-off.html)

Political / religious violence: Asian vs Asian as `Khalistan' row strikes UK - News - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/asian-vs-asian-as-khalistan-row-strikes-uk-1259642.html), BBC NEWS | UK | England | London | Police unit tackles Tamil gangs (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3201465.stm)

Mass illegal immigration / lack of integration / slum building: Slumdogs of Southall | The Sun |Features (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/3873783/Slumdogs-of-Southall.html), BBC News - Arrests after raids on 'slums' in Southall (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-21376253)

etc etc etc

So, my point was simply to point out the irony and two-facedness of doppelganger's post. It didnt need to be read into anymore than that.

I am not sure how stupid or criminal acts by members of a particular community can be attributed to the entire community. For one, I would hope that the UK police have dealt with these incidents strictly. For another, mixed caste/ religion/ community marriages are so common in India it self that it does not merit any discussion. And if blockheads of a particular community are moving out of India and taking their stupidity elsewhere, good riddance, may they rot in jails over there.

By the way, I am not even sure why AM liked this post, as it tries to do with the Indian community what he claims has been done with the Pakistani/ Muslim community, unless it is a liking of tit for tat.

Doktor
24 May 13,, 22:25
I am not sure how stupid or criminal acts by members of a particular community can be attributed to the entire community. For one, I would hope that the UK police have dealt with these incidents strictly. For another, mixed caste/ religion/ community marriages are so common in India it self that it does not merit any discussion. And if blockheads of a particular community are moving out of India and taking their stupidity elsewhere, good riddance, may they rot in jails over there.
Good thinking. Majority of Pakistanis can say the same for their own, I guess.


By the way, I am not even sure why AM liked this post, as it tries to do with the Indian community what he claims has been done with the Pakistani/ Muslim community, unless it is a liking of tit for tat.
1980's post shows that stupidity is not exclusive for one group only. I guess that's a good enough reason.

Doktor
24 May 13,, 22:27
Tankie, dave, snapper...

It seems that home-grown terrorists are getting ground in UK. Any ideas why?

Moreover, why among the converts?

Agnostic Muslim
24 May 13,, 22:29
By the way, I am not even sure why AM liked this post, as it tries to do with the Indian community what he claims has been done with the Pakistani/ Muslim community, unless it is a liking of tit for tat.
Actually I interpreted 1980's post as providing examples of how (as Doktor put it) 'stupidity is not exclusive for one group only'. I certainly didn't see it as some sort of derogatory generalization about the entire Indian community in the UK.

1980s
24 May 13,, 22:33
I am not sure how stupid or criminal acts by members of a particular community can be attributed to the entire community.

Exactly. That was pretty much my initial point. I shared those cases merely in response to "Firestorm's" apparent suggestion that those kinds of things are either somehow exclusive to "Muslims" or that they dont happen within other migrant/minority communities, like Indians.

1980s
24 May 13,, 22:48
Tankie, dave, snapper...

It seems that home-grown terrorists are getting ground in UK. Any ideas why?

Moreover, why among the converts?

Some converts dont convert for reasons of faith, they convert out of an identity crisis / having a need for an identity/belonging etc It is the latter group that are most likely to seek this new identity in some kind of wider cause that gives them a sense of purpose or calling in life, channel whatever insecurities or lack of personality or confidence or whatever it is that they have. Of course, this is a generalization, but identity issues often play a big role in political leanings. And political Islam is quite adept at self-glorification and presenting itself as a force for purposeful, righteous struggle. Something that would be appealing to weak minded people with emotional/personality issues that seek a new purpose in life, however bogus or misguided it turns out to be.

On a side note, the two killers seem to be have been suicidal:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_EI_S9fzP0

DarthSiddius
25 May 13,, 00:40
Im sorry, but Indians, Tamils, Sihks, Hindus whatever all have their share of much of the above and other criminal or communal behaviour that does not conform with British standards, interests or socio-cultural norms, and also behaviour that some try to associate exclusively with Islam even though the former can also all be guilty of it too like: ......

What are these "British Standards" you talk about and who decides on these standards? Are Indian standards any different (overall) even if we multiply your examples by a thousand as compared to the millions of Indians living there?? (Same goes for the Pakistanis btw) Don't counter generalizations with even more generalizations!

Bigfella
25 May 13,, 01:33
More than a "Muslim" problem, this is a European problem. You guys have naively let in the worst scum from every continent as refugees under the name of humanitarianism. This is the result of importing Mirpuri peasants, Jamaican drug dealers, Russian oligarchs and Somali refugees. Your immigration policies have failed you in every case. Now the warped ideologies that come with these people are spreading amongst the general populace. Just look at the difference between the Pakistani community in USA and the one in UK. One is made up of doctors, engineers, etc while the other is mostly unemployed welfare leeches with massive birthrates.

For centuries Britain exported its worst scum to every corner of the world in the name of 'law & order' and 'Empire'. Few folk on this board (myself included) descended from said 'scum'. The universe has a way of evening things out.

cataphract
25 May 13,, 07:09
For centuries Britain exported its worst scum to every corner of the world in the name of 'law & order' and 'Empire'. Few folk on this board (myself included) descended from said 'scum'. The universe has a way of evening things out.

Hey, I know you're a Pakistani cab driver, but do you have to be the worst kind, a.k.a ****-Brit? :biggrin:

cataphract
25 May 13,, 07:20
Really? The biggest ethnic minority groups are usually made up of migrant workers from former British, French etc colonies and their descendants, not refugees. And thats to do with capitalism and globalization, not humanitarianism. Past colonial histories notwithstanding.

Further to what Antimony said about the Indian diaspora, check the history of Pakistani immigration to UK. They were basically brought in straight from their villages as cheap factory labour for textile mills in Manchester that have long since shut down.

doppelganger
25 May 13,, 10:36
No, thats not correct at all. London has more mini India's, not mini Pakistan's. There are far more Indian immigrants and illegal migrants living in London than there are from any other ethnic minority group.

There is absolutely no threat of Shari'a law ever being imposed on Britain.

And considering that you're an Indian this is one of the most sly, weasel like comments ive read for awhile. If its ever to going to happen (altho of course it wont) white Britons would be reduced to a 'marginalized minority in their own land' by Indians before anyone or anything else. In fact, white Britons in London have already been 'reduced to a minority in their own land' by Indian immigrants in several parts of the city. And the trend is, when Indians start moving into an area here, whites tend to move out.

The type of two-faced 'demographic threat' scaremongering game you're trying to play in reality, is not about Islam per se, as much as it is about race and the associated cultures. Which, in the case of you being an Indian, is highly ironic for obvious reasons.

Many of my senior compatriots have already replied to your rant and put things in perspective pretty well.

I, as do they, pretty clearly see the game you are playing and where your pain really originates from. :)

The fact of the matter is that there is no nation on earth where the Indian diaspora is a source of terror.

I challenge you to prove otherwise.

Then I challenge you to defend the Pakistani diaspora of the same.

My post was on topic and had nothing to do with Pakistani save for the initial reference. It was to do with radical Islam and its deep rooted tentacles in the UK.

Is radical Islam a threat to the UK (lets leave the world out for now as that would be OT)?

Apparently native Britons right here on this very board and thread feel so.

Does radical Islam seek to ghettoize, incite and alienate in the very land and amongst the very people that give it shelter and opportunity?

Apparently native Britons right here on this very board and thread feel so.

So what is your point again?

Cheers.

Bigfella
25 May 13,, 11:00
Hey, I know you're a Pakistani cab driver, but do you have to be the worst kind, a.k.a ****-Brit? :biggrin:

I think part of your post got auto-censored. Sorta killed the punchline, but suffice to say I have a lot of 'scum' up the family tree. :biggrin:

tankie
25 May 13,, 11:12
And now we have arrests for comments made on f/b and other activities , guess what , no arrests in Oldham where the muslims were celebrating in the streets over the young SOLDIERS sickening murder by 2 cowardly stinking BASTARDS born n bred here and claiming benefit welfare ,, FFS UK GOVT WAKE UP .:mad:

Yahoo! News UK & Ireland - Latest World News & UK News Headlines (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/murder-provokes-backlash-across-uk-082013788.html;_ylt=ArY3mZ9tLV2CKmnJ_8d33Zi_fMl_;_ ylu=X3oDMTRka2tuY3NnBG1pdANocCB1ayBuZXdzIG1peGVkIG xpc3QEcGtnAzg3OGEzMGNhLTdmZTctMzA0Mi1iYzUyLTA2YmI2 MGRkNDQ0ZgRwb3MDMgRzZWMDTWVkaWFCTGlzdE1peGVkTFBDQV RlbXAEdmVyA2Q0YzA1M2IwLWM1MTctMTFlMi1iZGZlLTA4OWI5 ZDA5NjNjYQ--;_ylg=X3oDMTJqc21iNHNzBGludGwDZ2IEbGFuZwNlbi1nYgRw c3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3BtaAR0ZXN0A0NvbnRyb2 xfRmxvYXRpbmdNb2R1bGVzX09wdGltaXpl;_ylv=3)

tankie
25 May 13,, 11:41
Tankie, dave, snapper...

It seems that home-grown terrorists are getting ground in UK. Any ideas why?

Moreover, why among the converts?

Its their HUMAN FKIN RIGHTS to do so , but dont forget , we all have that honour Dok , but the majority of us dont have big bro watching us ,,ooops :slap: silly me , yes we do , cameras everywhere , mobile fone signals , car reg numbers, hole in the wall cards , etc etc , :whome:;)

And this just makes me cringe .

Yahoo! News UK & Ireland - Latest World News & UK News Headlines (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/family-tribute-murdered-soldier-035216598.html;_ylt=Amc6mfaCpmsH7OMC7PBtaLO_fMl_;_ ylu=X3oDMTRkMjZkMTM0BG1pdANocCB1ayBuZXdzIG1peGVkIG xpc3QEcGtnAzE0YjQyZmIwLTJiOGQtMzUxNS1hZDk0LTljMjU4 YjJmZmU5OQRwb3MDNARzZWMDTWVkaWFCTGlzdE1peGVkTFBDQV RlbXAEdmVyA2M0NzMwYzUwLWM1MTctMTFlMi1iZmJlLWNhNzM1 Y2Y4ZDQ2ZQ--;_ylg=X3oDMTJqc21iNHNzBGludGwDZ2IEbGFuZwNlbi1nYgRw c3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3BtaAR0ZXN0A0NvbnRyb2 xfRmxvYXRpbmdNb2R1bGVzX09wdGltaXpl;_ylv=3)

Bigfella
25 May 13,, 11:53
And now we have arrests for comments made on f/b and other activities , guess what , no arrests in Oldham where the muslims were celebrating in the streets over the young SOLDIERS sickening murder by 2 cowardly stinking BASTARDS born n bred here and claiming benefit welfare ,, FFS UK GOVT WAKE UP .:mad:

Yahoo! News UK & Ireland - Latest World News & UK News Headlines (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/murder-provokes-backlash-across-uk-082013788.html;_ylt=ArY3mZ9tLV2CKmnJ_8d33Zi_fMl_;_ ylu=X3oDMTRka2tuY3NnBG1pdANocCB1ayBuZXdzIG1peGVkIG xpc3QEcGtnAzg3OGEzMGNhLTdmZTctMzA0Mi1iYzUyLTA2YmI2 MGRkNDQ0ZgRwb3MDMgRzZWMDTWVkaWFCTGlzdE1peGVkTFBDQV RlbXAEdmVyA2Q0YzA1M2IwLWM1MTctMTFlMi1iZGZlLTA4OWI5 ZDA5NjNjYQ--;_ylg=X3oDMTJqc21iNHNzBGludGwDZ2IEbGFuZwNlbi1nYgRw c3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3BtaAR0ZXN0A0NvbnRyb2 xfRmxvYXRpbmdNb2R1bGVzX09wdGltaXpl;_ylv=3)

Tankie,

There were no arrests in Oldham because there were no celebrations in the street. It was a twitter hoax started by the EDL - who have been using this incident to further their agenda.


REPORTS of Oldham Muslims celebrating the shock killing were false, police said yesterday.
A rumour was spread through Twitter that police were “trying to disperse hundreds of Muslims in Victoria Street, Oldham, celebrating the murder of British soldier.”

Police said there was no such unrest

Oldham News | News Headlines | Muslims condemn barbaric attack - Chronicle Online (http://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news-features/8/news-headlines/80580/muslims-condemn-barbaric-attack)

It also looks like the people rounded up by those incredibly stupid laws about facebook posts were from both sides of the name calling. From your link:


Benjamin Flatters, from the city, was arrested on Thursday after complaints were made to Lincolnshire Police about comments made on the social networking site which were allegedly of a racist or anti-religious nature, a Lincolnshire Police spokesman said

....lets assume his comments were of a less than complimentary nature toward Islam.....


The charge comes after two men were arrested and released on bail in Bristol for making alleged offensive comments on Twitter about the murder.

Based on what I've read elsewhere I suspect these two are in the same boat.


Latcal was charged with religiously aggravated threatening behaviour and causing criminal damage, while Eugen-Beredei was charged with religiously aggravated threatening behaviour.

Don't know who did what to whom here, but at least one of them should have been arrested.


Mohammed Mazar, of Woking, has been charged with improper use of public electronic communications network under Section 127 of the Communications Act 2003.

I don't even know what this guy has been charged with, but I'm going to assume he & Mr Flatters won't be going out drinking anytime soon.

With the exception of one of these incidents this all seems a huge waste of police resources to enforce bullshit laws that impinge on free speech. Cameron should do something useful with his time & take these things off the books - along with ASBOs.

tankie
25 May 13,, 11:57
Tankie,

There were no arrests in Oldham because there were no celebrations in the street. It was a twitter hoax started by the EDL - who have been using this incident to further their agenda.



Oldham News | News Headlines | Muslims condemn barbaric attack - Chronicle Online (http://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news-features/8/news-headlines/80580/muslims-condemn-barbaric-attack)

It also looks like the people rounded up by those incredibly stupid laws about facebook posts were from both sides of the name calling. From your link:



....lets assume his comments were of a less than complimentary nature toward Islam.....



Based on what I've read elsewhere I suspect these two are in the same boat.



Don't know who did what to whom here, but at least one of them should have been arrested.



I don't even know what this guy has been charged with, but I'm going to assume he & Mr Flatters won't be going out drinking anytime soon.

With the exception of one of these incidents this all seems a huge waste of police resources to enforce bullshit laws that impinge on free speech. Cameron should do something useful with his time & take these things off the books - along with ASBOs.

Oh , so dont i feel foolish , i thought it was true ? my apologies to Oldham Muslims then , but i can remove the word oldham and insert wooton bassett where they protested and not arrested

Double Edge
25 May 13,, 13:33
Some converts dont convert for reasons of faith, they convert out of an identity crisis / having a need for an identity/belonging etc It is the latter group that are most likely to seek this new identity in some kind of wider cause that gives them a sense of purpose or calling in life, channel whatever insecurities or lack of personality or confidence or whatever it is that they have. Of course, this is a generalization, but identity issues often play a big role in political leanings. And political Islam is quite adept at self-glorification and presenting itself as a force for purposeful, righteous struggle. Something that would be appealing to weak minded people with emotional/personality issues that seek a new purpose in life, however bogus or misguided it turns out to be.
Chechen in Boston
Somali in Woolwich

Americans never went to Chechnya and I cannot recall whether Brits went to Somalia at least not for half a century.

Not a middle-eastern or south asian type. This is the second incident where i could have sworn either of the two would have been responsible.

Why ? Has the business been outsourced and is this going to be a new trend ?

Were these lone wolves or something more is yet to be answered.

antimony
25 May 13,, 14:22
Actually I interpreted 1980's post as providing examples of how (as Doktor put it) 'stupidity is not exclusive for one group only'. I certainly didn't see it as some sort of derogatory generalization about the entire Indian community in the UK.


Exactly. That was pretty much my initial point. I shared those cases merely in response to "Firestorm's" apparent suggestion that those kinds of things are either somehow exclusive to "Muslims" or that they dont happen within other migrant/minority communities, like Indians.

Fair enough, I would certainly not like any community to be tarred with a broad brush though I thought I detected some extra measure of asperity in your tone.

Having said that, I do believe the inherent stupidity of some members within a missionary community (like Islam or Christianity, who say "Come be like us") spread faster that the inherent stupidity of an exclusive community (like Hindus, who say "If you are not born like us, you cannot be like us").

Both types are asinine, one type is less invasive, the other spreads around.

And there you see me channeling my inner Hitchens:cool:

doppelganger
25 May 13,, 16:21
(like Hindus, who say "If you are not born like us, you cannot be like us").

Both types are asinine, one type is less invasive, the other spreads around.

Not necessarily because I am Hindu, but what is asinine about keeping one's faith limited to old bloodlines?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mleccha

Why the need to be "fairer than fair" by denouncing someone who is not interfering with anyone and keeping to himself, just because you also denounce those who feel the need to preach to one and all, whether welcome or not, and pursue the goal of global dominion of one's faith over the rest by the harvest of souls?

antimony
25 May 13,, 17:33
Not necessarily because I am Hindu, but what is asinine about keeping one's faith limited to old bloodlines?

How about the fact that that makes one to dehumanize others who are not part of the gang? How about stopping those of your faith but not of your bloodline from entering a place of worship because they are dirty?

Mleccha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mleccha)

Why the need to be "fairer than fair" by denouncing someone who is not interfering with anyone and keeping to himself, just because you also denounce those who feel the need to preach to one and all, whether welcome or not, and pursue the goal of global dominion of one's faith over the rest by the harvest of souls?

I have no problem with anyone keeping their beliefs to themselves. I have a huge problem when those beliefs affect other people. In India, just because you think cows are holy, you would put a stop to my right to eat them, and in a larger sense, derive many from a source of cheap and plentiful protein.

Please don't try to hold up Hinduism as a beacon of light, because its not. Hindus in the west are thankfully focused on more productive pursuits.

Yes, there are more moderate, mellow forms of Hinduism (some of them from my state). They do not "keep one's faith limited to old bloodlines". Thankfully, us godless communist atheist in Bengal decided to go the progressive route a few generations back.

Anyway, as always, this thread is getting derailed. You want to duke out with me on the vagaries and enchantments of Hinduism and the caste system , please feel free to open a thread and I will join you there.

antimony
25 May 13,, 17:36
I keep getting distracted by these OT posts

Back to the real issues:

Apparently the killer was approached by MI5 to be a spy within the community, and it backfired

MI5 tried to recruit suspect in soldier's murder: 'friend' - FRANCE 24 (http://www.france24.com/en/20130525-mi5-tried-recruit-suspect-soldiers-murder-friend)

Excerpt:

An alleged friend of Michael Adebolajo, a suspect in the murder of a soldier in London, has been arrested at the BBC after telling the broadcaster that British security services had tried to recruit his friend.

Parihaka
25 May 13,, 22:01
I keep getting distracted by these OT posts

Back to the real issues:

Apparently the killer was approached by MI5 to be a spy within the community, and it backfired

MI5 tried to recruit suspect in soldier's murder: 'friend' - FRANCE 24 (http://www.france24.com/en/20130525-mi5-tried-recruit-suspect-soldiers-murder-friend)

Excerpt:

The 'friend' was arrested for activities not associated with the murderers, apparently the police were looking for him regardless and were tipped of he was at the Beeb. Just thought I'd clarify that.

cataphract
25 May 13,, 22:38
it's contagious :bang:

French soldier stabbed while on patrol near Paris (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/25/us-france-stabbing-idUSBRE94O09420130525)

Parihaka
25 May 13,, 22:52
It's interesting that the UK police have arrested 3 people for Facebook comments while British broadcasters are lining up to give Anjem Chaoudary air time.
Irrespective of fucked up laws, baroness Warsi makes a very good point: if it's Muslim moderates job to peak out against he loonies, the British MSM is actively working against them
Woolwich attack: TV stations should not give hate preachers airtime, says Baroness Warsi - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10077586/Woolwich-attack-TV-stations-should-not-give-hate-preachers-airtime-says-Baroness-Warsi.html)

ambidex
26 May 13,, 00:52
RIP to Solider, I wish I was there to defend him.



1980's post shows that stupidity is not exclusive for one group only. I guess that's a good enough reason.

Good enough reason for what ?

To be alarmed that Indian are up to a systematic plot to hate and kill Britain population who sided with a collective decision of sending soldiers to fight a war ?

Only an oxymoron will find an equivalence between Isolated crimes done by Individuals against Individuals from its own community (Indians) with Islamic terrorism preached and practiced in UK against anyone or everyone or specifically against British soldiers.

Did you read what NE mentioned, a first hand experience ? He left the mosque in disgust.

Doktor
26 May 13,, 01:00
Address it to individuals, not to entire group.

Is it that hard to understand?

1980s
26 May 13,, 01:01
The fact of the matter is that there is no nation on earth where the Indian diaspora is a source of terror.

I challenge you to prove otherwise.

As i recall, before 9/11 what was widely considered to be the worst act of terrorism in the World had been committed by Indians in 1985 when they blew-up two airplanes killing almost 400 people. These people were Sikhs, not Muslims. The main accussed included Indians that were Canadian nationals.


Then I challenge you to defend the Pakistani diaspora of the same.

No. I dont care about them, and i never denied that they as a community pose a bigger challenge for Britain than Indians do on the question of terrorism. What i corrected for you in your weasel of a post was not a point about terrorism, it was a point about demographic threats which you brought up, in which case it is actually Indians that are a bigger and growing demographic threat to white Britains than Pakistanis or "radical Muslims" are.


Does radical Islam seek to ghettoize, incite and alienate in the very land and amongst the very people that give it shelter and opportunity?

Ghettoization occurs out of socio-economic conditions tied up with race and migration/immigration. It doesnt have a minority political agenda or conspiracy behind it. There are no Muslim ghettos in Britain. There are, however, close to ghetto-like conditions in some parts of the country, but they are all ethnic orientated, not religious, ie Black (could be African or Afro-Caribbean), Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, and have all been around decades before 'Radical Islam' was even a force to be taken seriously in the Middle East, let alone Europe. Other minorities from those mentioned above are not large enough to spawn "ghetto" like conditions. And Muslims are not a community, they are communities, still by and large, defined by their race/country of origin. As such, there is no prospect for "ghettoization" on radical religious grounds. It still, and always will, come down to economic mobility (or lack thereof), and race. Something the Indian diaspora does as exceptionally well as those Pakistanis that so appal you.

By all means, take a stance against radical Islam, taken a stance against Islam itself if you want. But dont take pride in your ignorance and double-standards, thats just low.

ambidex
26 May 13,, 01:09
Address it to individuals, not to entire group.

Is it that hard to understand?

Is it enforced not to call out all likewise ?

1980s
26 May 13,, 01:18
Chechen in Boston
Somali in Woolwich

Americans never went to Chechnya and I cannot recall whether Brits went to Somalia at least not for half a century.

Not a middle-eastern or south asian type. This is the second incident where i could have sworn either of the two would have been responsible.

Why ? Has the business been outsourced and is this going to be a new trend ?

Were these lone wolves or something more is yet to be answered.

Somalis? They were of Nigerian descent.

And radical Islam has many causes, forms. agendas etc. But the type of jihadi Islam we've seen in Boston and London lately is one that ideologically diminishes the importance/significance of ethnicity/race etc among its followers. So the fact that the terrorists of Boston and Woolwich had X background is largely irrelevant if they were so-called "home-grown" terrorists. Their background only becomes relevant if they were radicalized abroad and if their terrorist act had a specific link to a foreign conflict, rather than just a generic anti-Western one.

Double Edge
26 May 13,, 01:46
Somalis? They were of Nigerian descent.
My mistake.


And radical Islam has many causes, forms. agendas etc. But the type of jihadi Islam we've seen in Boston and London lately is one that ideologically diminishes the importance/significance of ethnicity/race etc among its followers. So the fact that the terrorists of Boston and Woolwich had X background is largely irrelevant if they were so-called "home-grown" terrorists.
Boston was not home-grown. The two brothers entered the US in 2002.

However, Woolwich is homegrown. Both were born in the UK.


Their background only becomes relevant if they were radicalized abroad and if their terrorist act had a specific link to a foreign conflict, rather than just a generic anti-Western one.
Yeah ok, if i think back to 9/11. Egyptian & Saudis, intent was specifically anti-US.


It still, and always will, come down to economic mobility (or lack thereof), and race.
Christine Fair has done some research on this and it turns out its the middle classes more than the working ones that get involved.

ambidex
26 May 13,, 01:57
As i recall, before 9/11 what was widely considered to be the worst act of terrorism in the World had been committed by Indians in 1985 when they blew-up two airplanes killing almost 400 people. These people were Sikhs, not Muslims. The main accussed included Indians that were Canadian nationals.

Indians, Indians. Repeat ten times.

Indians were done away with them. Regardless of repeated warning from GoI they were roaming and operating free in Canada. Then no Indian was apologist for the crime they did or non came out to justify their crimes by setting equivalence with crimes of the same gravity of past. It was all Canadian judicial system we Indians were looking up to come hard at them but they fucked it up big time. Most Importantly their Intent was to Punish India.


No. I dont care about them, and i never denied that they as a community pose a bigger challenge for Britain than Indians do on the question of terrorism. What i corrected for you in your weasel of a post was not a point about terrorism, it was a point about demographic threats which you brought up, in which case it is actually Indians that are a bigger and growing demographic threat to white Britains than Pakistanis or "radical Muslims" are.

What it has to do with Muslims from different ethnicity being brain washed to commit crime against British soldiers and those who support them.

Fear mongering !

Are you saying white Britishers are racist so Indians should side with other non whites and shouldn't speak against those who are promoting Islamic terrorism in UK ?

Impact of Indian demographics pose no threat to 'white Britains', these demographics have accumulated in a very long period of time-minus terrorism. If it does, then they are still in majority to change Immigration laws. A simple problem and simple solution. Indians will simply pack their bags and return back, half of them are still not citizens.

The is difference is combatant and non-combatant.

Bigfella
26 May 13,, 02:29
It's interesting that the UK police have arrested 3 people for Facebook comments while British broadcasters are lining up to give Anjem Chaoudary air time.
Irrespective of fucked up laws, baroness Warsi makes a very good point: if it's Muslim moderates job to peak out against he loonies, the British MSM is actively working against them
Woolwich attack: TV stations should not give hate preachers airtime, says Baroness Warsi - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10077586/Woolwich-attack-TV-stations-should-not-give-hate-preachers-airtime-says-Baroness-Warsi.html)

Pari,

First, I more or less agree with the Baroness - fringe extremists get too much airtime. A poor reflection on no only media, but audiences. This stuff is on TV either because it is calculated that people want 'colour & movement' stories, or because it is calculated that people derive some satisfaction from being outraged and will continue to seek sources of outrage (I get to see the success of this strategy first hand on a regular basis). This sort of stuff feeds the 'all muslims are extremists/where are the moderates?' theme. Indeed, I suspect that is part of why people like this get airtime - living down to audience expectation. I wouldn't refuse to give airtime to such people, but keep it extremely limited - in keeping with their standing in their own community. Mr Chaoudary is a classic example of someone using media brilliantly to leverage himself from a fringe position to one of some prominence. Suits the extremes on all sides while keeping up the ratings

Some queries/observations on your characterisation & the broader issue. Are you using 'MSM' in the US way - 'media left of what I like' or is there another relevant definition here. On the other side, is there a 'non-MSM' in the UK and what would it be? If so, do they not give publicity to the likes of Chaoudary? There is actually an important point here. My observation of US media in particular, but also of Australian & to a lesser extent UK media is that 'crazy muslim' stuff gets a run all over. Indeed, media like Fox, the Murdoch press in Australia & populist 'current affairs' TV regularly run stuff on such extremists. Punters lap it up. Wander a bit further off to the right in the US to popular internet stuff & it is everywhere. Indeed, the 'MSM' can't win. If it runs this stuff it faces criticism that it is giving publicity to extremists who have little real following, if it decides not to it gets criticized for 'covering up' Islamic extremism.

As I said, personally I think they should take the high road & stop giving these people a platform.

troung
26 May 13,, 02:30
AM crying that his Taliban lover got droned striked, Dopple whining about Muslims and ambiet just being himself - God the shit really floated up in this thread,

ambidex
26 May 13,, 05:00
AM crying that his Taliban lover got droned striked, Dopple whining about Muslims and ambidet just being himself - God the shit really floated up in this thread,


And you being yourself, playing referee without being told.

The thread got derailed when 1980 dragged Indians into, worked so hard to post links about Indians hating each other in UK.

A referee has be fair.

Officer of Engineers
26 May 13,, 06:57
RIP to Solider, I wish I was there to defend him.And you would have died along with him. Get a clue. A well trained combat veteran got surprised and overwhelmed, what the hell were you going to do? The only stopping the fucks from a woman was that they did not expect a woman.

ambidex
26 May 13,, 09:25
And you would have died along with him. Get a clue. A well trained combat veteran got surprised and overwhelmed, what the hell were you going to do? The only stopping the fucks from a woman was that they did not expect a woman.

Or may be because he saw only a women engaging, he wasn't deterred at all.

Sir, I would have pelted bricks or stones, charge him with car jack handle, hockey stick, shout; at least slow the offence. No one knows how determined he was. First aid and resuscitation could have become easy as he may not have been able to inflict grievous injury like he did.

Wouldn't have done the same if he was armed with gun.

I always say that Gun control in UK, NZ, Australia et al work as it increases the possibility of resuscitation. Like that brave women more help could have made the difference.

Bigfella
26 May 13,, 09:52
Or may be because he saw only a women engaging, he wasn't deterred at all.

Sir, I would have pelted bricks or stones, charge him with car jack handle, hockey stick, shout; at least slow the offence. No one knows how determined he was. First aid and resuscitation could have become easy as he may not have been able to inflict grievous injury like
he did.

You are making a mountain of assumptions from the other side of the world. There were other people there - including children. The men were not threatening them. Why provoke them further? It sounds very much like the victim was already gone. It is one thing to protect further lives, but what o are proposing runs risks that you don't have the right to take in those circumstances.

Judging from this statement it sounds like a number of women did what they could to protect the victim - though it sounds like it was already too late. I suspect that the reason the attackers let them attend to him was that he was beyond help - their language, referring to 'the body' and saying 'I killed him', makes it sound like he was done. Perhaps you could have joined them & tried to help, but attacking the two men sounds like the riskier course for others.


She said: "I went to the guy and when I approached the body there was a lady cradling him. And then (one of the killers), the most excited one of the two, said, 'Don't go too close to the body'.

"I thought, okay. And because I was down I could see a butcher's knife and an axe - that's what he had - and blood. I thought, what the heck? I thought obviously he was a bit excited and the thing was just to talk to him."

Ms Loyau-Kennett said she tried to reason with the killer in an effort to focus his attention away from other potential victims, as large crowds began to huddle at the scene.

She said: "I know it's big today but for me it was just a regular guy, just a bit upset. He was not on drugs, he was not drunk.

"He said, 'Don't touch, I killed him'. I said, 'Why?' He said: 'He's a British soldier. He killed people. He killed Muslim people in Muslim countries.'

"And I said: okay. So what would you like? I tried to maker him talk about how he felt. He said all the bombs dropping and blindly killing women, children...

"More and more people were starting to come. There were so many people around. I just looked around and I found it so daunting."

However, Ms Loyau-Kennett said her thoughts were to "just carry on" talking to the man, while several woman arriving at the scene tried to shield the victim.

......"Unfortunately there were more and more mothers with children stopping around, so it was even more important I was talking to him and ask him what he wanted."


Wouldn't have done the same if he was armed with gun.

I always say that Gun control in UK, NZ, Australia et al work as it increases the possibility of resuscitation. Like that brave women more help could have made the difference.

How carefully have you looked at photos/footage of the incident?


The video shows one of the men, Michael Adebolajo, 28, running toward officers while wielding a blade, as his partner, thought to be Michael Adebowale, 22, aims his gun at them.

WATCH: Video shows Woolwich attack suspects being shot by police - World - Israel News | Haaretz Daily Newspaper (http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/watch-video-shows-woolwich-attack-suspects-being-shot-by-police.premium-1.525846)

There was a gun and there was more help.

You weren't there. Save the 'woulda, coulda, shoulda' for the people who were.

ambidex
26 May 13,, 10:52
You are making a mountain of assumptions from the other side of the world. There were other people there - including children. The men were not threatening them. Why provoke them further? It sounds very much like the victim was already gone. It is one thing to protect further lives, but what are proposing runs risks that you don't have the right to take in those circumstances.

Its worth a try to save life. Then I am clever strong and healthy enough to save myself; I can run fast. People have been appreciated in Australia by media and police for saving lives. I can post a link if you want.


Judging from this statement it sounds like a number of women did what they could to protect the victim - though it sounds like it was already too late. I suspect that the reason the attackers let them attend to him was that he was beyond help - their language, referring to 'the body' and saying 'I killed him', makes it sound like he was done. Perhaps you could have joined them & tried to help, but attacking the two men sounds like the riskier course for others.


The attacker is not a doctor and people can not read attacker's mind.

The attackers was still armed, people attended the body regardless.


How carefully have you looked at photos/footage of the incident?

Read my first post If I was there during/before attack I would have defended him. My second post was to discuss a point with OOE Sir.


There was a gun and there was more help.

No, It wasn't there he would have been saved if there was.


You weren't there.

Thanks for your concern. Every one knows I wasn't there.


Save the 'woulda, coulda, shoulda' for the people who were

You have your own shoulda woulda coulda that they would have been more provoked if men nearby would have intervened during attack.

Bigfella
26 May 13,, 11:54
Its worth a try to save life. Then I am clever strong and healthy enough to save myself; I can run fast. People have been appreciated in Australia by media and police for saving lives. I can post a link if you want.



The attacker is not a doctor and people can not read attacker's mind.

The attackers was still armed, people attended the body regardless.



Read my first post If I was there during/before attack I would have defended him. My second post was to discuss a point with OOE Sir.



No, It wasn't there he would have been saved if there was.



Thanks for your concern. Every one knows I wasn't there.



You have your own shoulda woulda coulda that they would have been more provoked if men nearby would have intervened during attack.

As I said, its easy to be brave on the other side of the world days later when you only have snippets of information - you didn't even know there was a gun until I told you. You don't know if the guy could even have been saved when the first person arrived. You don't know what consequences might have flowed from attacking the men. You now know there was a gun - which renders everything else you said moot, according to your own statement.

As for me, I have merely put forth some possible consequences of your actions. I haven't proposed a course of action for anyone who was there or anyone who pretends to know what they would do if they were. I happen to think the best people to judge what should have been done are the people who actually faced the situation in the moment. The wave of second guessing I have seen on the net (sadly you are not alone) is, quite frankly, insulting. More internet BS. At least the original 'Monday morning quarterback' was only talking about a football game, not two armed & dangerous men.

ambidex
26 May 13,, 12:35
As I said, its easy to be brave on the other side of the world days later when you only have snippets of information - you didn't even know there was a gun until I told you. You don't know if the guy could even have been saved when the first person arrived. You don't know what consequences might have flowed from attacking the men. You now know there was a gun - which renders everything else you said moot, according to your own statement.

If know my point is moot then why your underwear is still in twist. Have good day. I was clear on every thing.


As for me, I have merely put forth some possible consequences of your actions. I haven't proposed a course of action for anyone who was there or anyone who pretends to know what they would do if they were. I happen to think the best people to judge what should have been done are the people who actually faced the situation in the moment. The wave of second guessing I have seen on the net (sadly you are not alone) is, quite frankly, insulting. More internet BS. At least the original 'Monday morning quarterback' was only talking about a football game, not two armed & dangerous men.

You don't have to assume things for everyone. There are people more braver then you and many who have seen worst then this.

So far you have failed to give me a good reason why people shouldn't help that man. I can post many links where people have saved lives even endured bullets, even in Australia. You would have said same things to them or may be not, because with me you feel invited to do nitpicks for itzy bitzy reasons.

Parihaka
26 May 13,, 14:07
Pari,

Some queries/observations on your characterisation & the broader issue. Are you using 'MSM' in the US way - 'media left of what I like' or is there another relevant definition here. On the other side, is there a 'non-MSM' in the UK and what would it be? If so, do they not give publicity to the likes of Chaoudary? There is actually an important point here. My observation of US media in particular, but also of Australian & to a lesser extent UK media is that 'crazy muslim' stuff gets a run all over. Indeed, media like Fox, the Murdoch press in Australia & populist 'current affairs' TV regularly run stuff on such extremists. Punters lap it up. Wander a bit further off to the right in the US to popular internet stuff & it is everywhere. Indeed, the 'MSM' can't win. If it runs this stuff it faces criticism that it is giving publicity to extremists who have little real following, if it decides not to it gets criticized for 'covering up' Islamic extremism.

As I said, personally I think they should take the high road & stop giving these people a platform.

A little bit of history: during my twenties I spent a lot of time skiing and apart from personalised instructing paid for it by spending time filming oral history for one of our universities, almost accidentally picking up my current craft in the process. Camera, sound, lighting, film, video, editing, documentaries, propaganda, theatre, feature films blah blah blah.
I developed a love of telling stories through images and sound but my major love was recording other peoples personal stories
.
Nowadays and for the last fifteen years I've worked with one small boutique outfit which covers very boring (for me personally) material but through which I got to pay a mortgage for a former narcissistic wife, but then and now get to provide my kiddies with a stable and nurturing upbringing, the most fun and rewarding thing I've yet done by a country mile. This outfit also allows me to play with a lot of state of the art gear and meet some very clued up nerds (I consider that a respectful compliment)
In eight to ten years I'll consider my children will both be able to provide their own daily sustenance and while still providing a bed should they need to stay a night or year, I'll be able to return to my favourite occupation, documenting people, society and anything that attracts my quirky eclectic attention.

To wit: in my current job I get to observe, as a small quiet meeting-room 'lacky', some of the lower echelons of the major media players in Australasia, the UK, the US and China. They still operate under the mistaken perception that they are the major players in the room, and across the connected world, controlling information and forming the message. Even though I am naturally taciturn I sometimes have to physically restrain myself from bursting out laughing. They still don't understand that the moment someone mated a computer with a stream of digital images and sound, what I've called MSM became a legacy system. They no longer control the message because they no longer control the medium.

You're correct that MSM is the wrong terminology for me to use, I was simply being lazy. In fact all those corporations you mentioned, entwined like you wouldn't believe, are legacy. I think it was in 2002 that I first pointed out to my managers a survey in little old NZ that showed people for the first time were spending more of their leisure time in front of a computer than in front of the TV. (Radio interestingly, in the form of public broadcasting, was and still is holding its own across classes)My managers response was entirely based on how to minimise and control that, to bring people back to passive, message controlled viewing, and still is: not just in my small corner but worldwide, across the 'networks'.

This diversity of viewing platforms and means of accessing information has increased nearly exponentially since then, a sort of after-effect of Moore's law. People no longer get most of their information and entertainment from the big black box on the wall where the passive observers have to wait until the appropriate time to watch, and have their viewing pleasure interrupted by the broadcasters messages. They can access their information at any time, almost anywhere in the world they want to. This flexibility of mediums (tablet, smart paper, smart phone, google glasses et al) will increase at a rate again equal to Moore's law, as will the means to share these images and stories.

An example: Two years ago I went to Hong Kong with a laptop and a small camera. In one day we shot a 1/2 hour programme replete with complex graphics, colour matched and edited within an inch of it's life and sent it back to NZ via the internet where it played out in HD 5 hours after I dropped it into dropbox.
Early the next morning I also sent it back via satellite as my boss wanted redundancy since this was the first time we'd tried it. The techs and managers of the Hong Kong facility I used were astonished that not only had I produced a complete half hour programme from filming to final high quality product but that I was using them to transmit it only as redundancy, despite having access to all the equipment I had. They had simply not embraced flexibility they way I have. I then went and filmed interviews and cutaways of that days events, edited them and sent them back for playout from our studio as ongoing news clips with a twenty minute lag from send to play. It would have been 8 minutes but the IT department back home were circa 1995 in thinking and refused to allow a direct link between their LAN and my servers, which meant I had to get one of my juniors (now my immediate boss bless her little cotton socks, couldn't be prouder) to manually transfer the files as they came in.
At the end of the day the manager of the Hong Kong facility offered me a job but I wasn't willing to live apart from the kiddies and there's no way my ex would allow them to live in Hong Kong.

Another example: My ex, being lazy, requires I pay 20% of my income to her despite us sharing equal care of our children. I now not only pay for all my children's costs but also contribute to her, her boyfriend, and her boyfriends daughter. As a consequence I announced to the wee buggers that I was going to drop our sky subscription. They didn't blink an eye. At eight and thirteen they no longer spend any time in front of the TV except to play on Wii or playstation, and that infrequently unless they're entertaining visiting friends. Their friends don't watch TV either. Both have laptops, both have cheap 7" tablets and access all their entertainment, productivity and most of their learning via the internet, at far less cost to me than a sky subscription.



As my children develop over the next ten years and I need spend less time metaphorically wiping their arses I can devote more time to developing myself and my gear and by that time I and those few others worldwide like me will eat the monolithic international broadcasters, their revenue streams and most importantly their governmental masters, for breakfast.

All this is an extremely long-winded way of saying the term MSM was wrong, I meant the international broadcasting 'monopolies', I see no effective difference between any of the broadcasters you mentioned except in tone (some colour it cold, others colour it warm), they all follow the same script and don't despair, educated, informative real-world realistic anarchy is on its way.

tankie
26 May 13,, 14:42
Hoobloodyray .

Yahoo! News UK & Ireland - Latest World News & UK News Headlines (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/britain-target-radical-muslim-preachers-soldiers-killing-120155282.html;_ylt=Avmd8GzDg2Ra76_SYQ3JhxS_fMl_;_ ylu=X3oDMTRkcDljNzZrBG1pdANocCB1ayBuZXdzIG1peGVkIG xpc3QEcGtnA2ZlYjVhYzIxLTk4NDMtMzNkZS1hOTYwLTkxNmFl ZTMzZTk0YwRwb3MDNwRzZWMDTWVkaWFCTGlzdE1peGVkTFBDQV RlbXAEdmVyAzM3ZjM3OWYwLWM1ZmMtMTFlMi1iYjA5LTc3YjVm ZTg5YjY0OQ--;_ylg=X3oDMTJqc21iNHNzBGludGwDZ2IEbGFuZwNlbi1nYgRw c3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3BtaAR0ZXN0A0NvbnRyb2 xfRmxvYXRpbmdNb2R1bGVzX09wdGltaXpl;_ylv=3)

Double Edge
26 May 13,, 17:25
Home Secretary (interior minister) Theresa May said thousands were at risk of being radicalised.

Three more men were arrested on Saturday on suspicion of conspiracy to murder. Asked whether the suspects were "lone wolves" or part of a wider group, May said signs suggested they were acting alone.
Give us a heads up if you hear anything to the contrary.

Mihais
26 May 13,, 18:50
A little bit of history:...

Not in this bussiness by any means,but this has been my take on the phenomenon as well.
Mainly from the information war angle.But it changes things dramatically.Take the recent events in the ME.Politicians and the MSM passed a message.Freelancers passed a wholly different view and the public opinion has been largely shaped by the latter.Back in 99 it was possible to engineer a war in Kosovo with a few doctored reports.Now freelancers will challenge whatever is said.
MSM still has some power,mainly because humans are creatures of comfort and they also like to buy the brand.If CNN or BBC says something it must have a greater intrinsec value.IMO,that's also why those that don't like whatever message the MSM transmits criticize the establishment so vigorously.

doppelganger
27 May 13,, 08:52
As i recall, before 9/11 what was widely considered to be the worst act of terrorism in the World had been committed by Indians in 1985 when they blew-up two airplanes killing almost 400 people. These people were Sikhs, not Muslims. The main accussed included Indians that were Canadian nationals.

As pointed out, this was Indian on Indian terrorism carried out abroad. No one claimed parts of India at one time or the other have not been at war with India. But India as a whole has never taken war to any other part of the world. Our wars with Pakistan are also essentially India on India.


No. I dont care about them, and i never denied that they as a community pose a bigger challenge for Britain than Indians do on the question of terrorism. What i corrected for you in your weasel of a post was not a point about terrorism, it was a point about demographic threats which you brought up, in which case it is actually Indians that are a bigger and growing demographic threat to white Britains than Pakistanis or "radical Muslims" are.

If you do not care about them, do not defend them as vigorously, and maybe we will believe you. Indians assimilate, accept, and by and large enrich the societies they migrate to. If we are not welcome, we can and do move elsewhere, as was seen in Australia recently. We do not feed off the land and plot its downfall. That's the specialty of radical Islam, and it is homogenous across race, language, color, ethnicity, and nationality, because the ideology that feeds and nurtures it superimposes itself above and beyond all of the former.


And Muslims are not a community, they are communities, still by and large, defined by their race/country of origin.

That is not how either muslims see themselves, nor how they react to the non-muslim world, nor how the world as a whole reacts to them. As before, the teachings of radical Islam have no place for non-Islamic divisions of race or language or nationality or ethnicity. The Ummah is one, and like George Bush, they believe you are either with them or against them. One would think the violence across the world linked to radical Islam, cutting across traditional friend-foe equations would have clarified as much for you.

Ask yourself this - what was a UK born and brought up man of Nigerian origin doing beheading a British soldier for the war on Iraq and Afghanistan?

chanjyj
27 May 13,, 08:55
As pointed out, this was Indian on Indian terrorism carried out abroad. No one claimed parts of India at one time or the other have not been at war with India. But India as a whole has never taken war to any other part of the world. Our wars with Pakistan are also essentially India or India.

What do you mean by "Indian on Indian terrorism"?

"Our wars with Pakistan are also essentially India or India" - by virtue of fact that you are engaging in war with a foreign sovereign nation I don't see how this is "India or India" either. It's India and Pakistan?

doppelganger
27 May 13,, 08:59
What do you mean by "Indian on Indian terrorism"?

Indians targetting Indians.


"Our wars with Pakistan are also essentially India or India" - by virtue of fact that you are engaging in war with a foreign sovereign nation I don't see how this is "India or India" either. It's India and Pakistan?

I meant India on India, and have corrected the typo in my post. Pakistan is a breakaway Indian state. Calling themselves another name with Islamic cues does not change who they are or who they were before Islam came calling.

chanjyj
27 May 13,, 09:12
Indians targetting Indians.

I meant India on India, and have corrected the typo in my post. Pakistan is a breakaway Indian state. Calling themselves another name with Islamic cues does not change who they are or who they were before Islam came calling.

Air India Flight 182 was mostly filled with Canadian passengers. Wouldn't you consider this indiscriminate terrorism, even if the flight was an Air India flight?

How exactly is Pakistan a breakaway state when Nehru agreed with the creation of a separate state; would Timor Leste be part of Indonesia then, by the same logic?

doppelganger
27 May 13,, 09:22
Air India Flight 182 was mostly filled with Canadian passengers. Wouldn't you consider this indiscriminate terrorism, even if the flight was an Air India flight?

They were collateral damage of war. In the wrong place at the wrong time. The idea of the babbar khalsa was to wage war on the Indian state, and discredit it globally. Indian on Indian.


How exactly is Pakistan a breakaway state when Nehru agreed with the creation of a separate state; would Timor Leste be part of Indonesia then, by the same logic?

Just because an unwanted child ripped from a womb sometimes does not get to take its parents name (cast-off, abandoned), does not change its genetics. Regardless of what he calls himself later on in life.

P.S. Now I am going to stop replying to you otherwise mods will probably decide that it is me who is taking the discussion OT. I have replied to 1980, lets wait for his response.

doppelganger
27 May 13,, 10:04
A perspective, that foreign as it may be to the "civilized" way of life for much of the world, has increasingly become relevant as it creeps insidiously within our societies.

Unrelentingly.

"Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; and the tribe against the world and all of us against the infidel."

– Leon Uris, ‘The Haj’.

Bigfella
27 May 13,, 11:17
All this is an extremely long-winded way of saying the term MSM was wrong, I meant the international broadcasting 'monopolies', I see no effective difference between any of the broadcasters you mentioned except in tone (some colour it cold, others colour it warm), they all follow the same script and don't despair, educated, informative real-world realistic anarchy is on its way.

Thanks for the insight. Agree that on many levels there is little difference between legacy platforms. On this particular topic there are players all over the political spectrum who give too much airtime to people who are noisy rather than important. Plenty of blame to go around there - not least among consumers.

Bigfella
27 May 13,, 11:27
A perspective, that foreign as it may be to the "civilized" way of life for much of the world, has increasingly become relevant as it creeps insidiously within our societies.

Unrelentingly.

"Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; and the tribe against the world and all of us against the infidel."

– Leon Uris, ‘The Haj’.

You have got to be shitting me. You are quoting a work of fiction by an American-born Jew of Polish/Russian heritage who spent about a year of his life in what was then Palestine. If I dug up a quote casting Indians in a negative light that had been written by a Pakistani expat who spent a few month in India once, the usual suspects would be screaming at the top of their lungs about 'ignorance' and 'prejudice'.

Oh, and in case you didn't see the pics....or read any of the articles, the guys who did this were English-born of Nigerian background. At least one was born & grew up Christian. The rough equivalent of the child of Indian Hindu immigrants.

Makes the comments of an American Jew on Arabs even less relevant. Imagine.

.....and you wonder why people show you no respect.

chanjyj
27 May 13,, 11:40
They were collateral damage of war. In the wrong place at the wrong time. The idea of the babbar khalsa was to wage war on the Indian state, and discredit it globally. Indian on Indian.

If you remove your 2nd sentence, doesn't it sound very much like what Al Qaeda or any terrorist might say?
"They were collateral damage of war. In the wrong place at the wrong time."


Just because an unwanted child ripped from a womb sometimes does not get to take its parents name (cast-off, abandoned), does not change its genetics. Regardless of what he calls himself later on in life.

P.S. Now I am going to stop replying to you otherwise mods will probably decide that it is me who is taking the discussion OT. I have replied to 1980, lets wait for his response.

I'm perfectly fine with you not replying. I just see major fallacies in your thought process and want to point them out, though you probably won't accept it. You say Pakistan is part of India. Why wouldn't the US be part of the UK, and illegitimate state too? How far do you want to stretch it - think about what I'm saying. I'm not entirely sure you get my point in my previous post. You sound like a fanatic or Indian nationalist (extremist?) which is worrying.

doppelganger
27 May 13,, 11:45
chanjyj, I think the thread is getting derailed. I am perfectly able and inclined to answering your residual doubts and concerns, were it not for a more overpowering concern of attracting (once more) the wrath of a mod. I will therefore wait for one to drop in, place a friendly hand on my shoulder, and say "its ok bro, go forth", or I will desist and leave you to your assumptions and presumptions, unchallenged.

I do however appreciate your being polite about the whole thing. Thank you.

tankie
27 May 13,, 13:34
3 arrested over the murder have been released on bail , back OT . Lets see how long before India / Pakistan / Iraq / A/G / Outer Mongolia / Ireland / Ozz / Somalia / Canada etc etc get dragged back in to it .He was murdered by 2 home grown radicalized Brits whose heads n brains are stuck firmly up their arses , why would they ,from nigerian origin , shout about soldiers out of their countries , Iraq / A/G , surely from nigerian stock they should have been busy perfecting million dollar scams caused by the deaths of their great uncle chief numfuck , :confused: Gonna be interesting now to see what the govt is going to do about radical hate preachers , ooooops :slap: FFS silly me , we cant get rid of qatada , yooman freakin rights shite .:mad:

Yahoo! News UK & Ireland - Latest World News & UK News Headlines (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/woolwich-murder-trio-bailed-012514427.html;_ylt=Ass_jUUYaWQG.d8bYclvLNW_fMl_;_ ylu=X3oDMTRkdTBiaXFrBG1pdANocCB1ayBuZXdzIG1peGVkIG xpc3QEcGtnA2E2NGQ1ZDNkLTg2ZTgtM2ZkMy1hMTAzLTRmZTkz ZjY4MDUwMARwb3MDNwRzZWMDTWVkaWFCTGlzdE1peGVkTFBDQV RlbXAEdmVyA2I2MDI3MzEwLWM2YWEtMTFlMi1iZmZlLWQwYzc1 YWRlNDJhNg--;_ylg=X3oDMTJqc21iNHNzBGludGwDZ2IEbGFuZwNlbi1nYgRw c3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3BtaAR0ZXN0A0NvbnRyb2 xfRmxvYXRpbmdNb2R1bGVzX09wdGltaXpl;_ylv=3)

tankie
27 May 13,, 13:37
News just in , we're fucked .I sport a tattoo on my arm which shows my reg badge with a Queens crown on it , c,mon chop my arm off to appease ,,,,,, the authorities should hang their heads in shame for this arrest , wankers .

Woman arrested in OLDHAM for carrying a UNION FLAG - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r22npZe6508)

doppelganger
27 May 13,, 14:01
Tankie sorry to say but the UK seems to be barreling headlong towards Stage 3.

Hope you guys can stem the rot.

Doktor
27 May 13,, 14:02
I can't hear the voice (if any). Is the flag the reason for the arrest?

If so:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6NCXmVP6KQ

tankie
27 May 13,, 14:13
I can't hear the voice (if any). Is the flag the reason for the arrest?

If so:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6NCXmVP6KQ

Haha , i remember that film , he's right , dont go to England , pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaase :biggrin:

Apparently a muslim called the cops as it was causing offence , FFS , well , he can always go to a country which flies his flag , in fact i'll pay for the flight , one way of course , but he must never come back , hows that.

Doktor
27 May 13,, 14:21
Just about right.

I don't like the part where you pay the ticket, but, oh well, if you insist.

tankie
27 May 13,, 14:23
Just about right.

I don't like the part where you pay the ticket, but, oh well, if you insist.

Willingly

doppelganger
27 May 13,, 14:25
Just about right.

I don't like the part where you pay the ticket, but, oh well, if you insist.

Its a no win situation.

They can breed faster than the tankies of the world can earn enough to buy tickets.

For every one you manage to send out, they would leave at least 4-5 behind.

x4.

That's how this game is played.

Big swathes of our population do not accept immunization under governement programs for fear that the governement is trying to sterilize their men.

Doktor
27 May 13,, 14:31
Apparently a muslim called the cops as it was causing offence , FFS

I still can't get my head around this. And the police said, "Oh well, since you insist, kind Sire, your wish is our command". What's next? Arresting the Queen?

tankie
27 May 13,, 14:38
I still can't get my head around this. And the police said, "Oh well, since you insist, kind Sire, your wish is our command". What's next? Arresting the Queen?

Probably a mainly muslim area she was in , Oldham has lots of them , so plod probably arrested her for trying to incite public unrest , no doubt she will be charged , placed in jail and sent to the colonies on the next available sailing ship .:pop: Welcome to Englanistanislam , , ref the Queen , they apparently want to turn buck house into a mosque :slap:

Doktor
27 May 13,, 14:42
Well mate, apparently you need to remove St. George's Cross from the flag.

tankie
27 May 13,, 14:50
Well mate, apparently you need to remove St. George's Cross from the flag.

Aye , the patron st of many countries , it aint happening m8y

tankie
27 May 13,, 14:53
Tankie sorry to say but the UK seems to be barreling headlong towards Stage 3.

Hope you guys can stem the rot.

Stopping hate preachers is a start , but there are always others in the ranks to take over , sooooooooo lemme see now , where does that leave us , and its not just the UK .

doppelganger
27 May 13,, 14:56
Stopping hate preachers is a start , but there are always others in the ranks to take over , sooooooooo lemme see now , where does that leave us , and its not just the UK .

I said this before. You need to infiltrate their centers of radicalization.

Others will take over. Which is why you need sleepers in place.

We are already doing it and it has borne results. MI5 can and should learn from RAW on this.

Pedicabby
27 May 13,, 15:53
News just in , we're fucked .I sport a tattoo on my arm which shows my reg badge with a Queens crown on it , c,mon chop my arm off to appease ,,,,,, the authorities should hang their heads in shame for this arrest , wankers .

Woman arrested in OLDHAM for carrying a UNION FLAG - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r22npZe6508)


I think my shaw would look a lot better with a Union Flag on the front handle bars. Tomorrow when I go back to work I will put one on.

What's gaol food like in England?

tankie
27 May 13,, 17:43
I think my shaw would look a lot better with a Union Flag on the front handle bars. Tomorrow when I go back to work I will put one on.

What's gaol food like in England?

Brilliant ,,allegedly , 3 square a day , tv , gym , etc etc :whome:

Double Edge
27 May 13,, 18:42
Stopping hate preachers is a start , but there are always others in the ranks to take over , sooooooooo lemme see now , where does that leave us , and its not just the UK .
Don't have a problem with hate preachers, its when they advocate violence that the line gets crossed.

Your earlier article was quite clear about that. There is no freedom of speech defense or its very weak.

Now what to do about it.

Going after them visibly is just going to cause unrest and be counter-productive.

Watch this space.

tankie
27 May 13,, 18:50
Don't have a problem with hate preachers, its when they advocate violence that the line gets crossed.

Your earlier article was quite clear about that. There is no freedom of speech defense or its very weak.

Now what to do about it.

Going after them visibly is just going to cause unrest and be counter-productive.

Watch this space.

Have you looked at the vid links in Luton ? seems pretty violent incite chants to me .

Double Edge
27 May 13,, 19:29
Where ? Must have missed it.

tankie
27 May 13,, 19:40
Where ? Must have missed it.



https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=171331263031427


And news in , seems like the tory rag Sun , dont like the EDL patriots , they are thugs ?? unlike the muslim protesters above in Luton who can say what they like .

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4944314/EDL-protest-in-central-London.html

Parihaka
27 May 13,, 20:18
Video of woman Apparently being Arrested for Holding British Flag goes Viral - Manchester Gazette | Manchester Gazette (http://manchestergazette.co.uk/video-of-woman-apparently-being-arrested-for-holding-british-flag-goes-viral/)

Double Edge
27 May 13,, 20:19
Do not fear the loonies.. support Help for Heroes with pride | The Sun | May 24th 2013 (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4940297/Top-Gear-host-Jeremy-Clarkson-and-other-celebrities-urge-people-to-stand-in-solidarity-with-murdered-Lee-Rigby-and-support-Help-for-Heroes.html)

Tankie, i don't hear the demonstrators say 'burn in hell' but rather 'go to hell'.

The reporter however mentions the 'burn' bit and repeats it.

This demonstration would have been cleared with their lawyers before hand anyway. One of the guys tells her the freedom of speech thing towards the end.

I think its legit.

Parihaka
27 May 13,, 21:11
Tankie, the Sun is a Tory rag:eek:

tankie
27 May 13,, 23:16
Tankie, the Sun is a Tory rag:eek:

Could be wrong , it may be the mirror :slap:

Parihaka
27 May 13,, 23:16
A general question: given the number of MI5/undercover cops tasked with infiltrating such organisations as the BNP and the various jihadist movements, how many people in the photos of protests from organisations of both ilks do you think are actually government agents tasked with promoting extremism to see who crawls out of the woodwork?

doppelganger
28 May 13,, 07:20
The good thing about Jihadist Islam is that it is not impervious to money. To properly infiltrate, you need to be of the right color. And the right color can and is usually easily bought. Not a major problem for us in India. Someone made a pertinent point about the new trend of outsourcing of Jihad. So you have white in Boston, black in London. But look and dig deeper, and you will find brown.

Doktor
28 May 13,, 07:23
Oh shut up.

Your intolerance has no limits.

doppelganger
28 May 13,, 07:50
Tarek Fatah from The Toronto SUN says that "U.K. Beheading Shows It's Time To Fight the Doctrine of Jihad"

When buses and trains exploded on 7/7 in London, the objective of the suicide bombers was to sow fear and terror in the very soul of the British people.

In that the jihadis were successful.

One would have expected the British authorities to not just hunt down the terrorists, but also to fight the cancer of Islamism that lies at the ideological roots of jihadi terrorism. Instead, successive governments in London have tried to pussyfoot around the challenge, hoping the jihadi terrorists and their ideology would melt away with time as Downing Street funded so-called "moderate" Muslim groups and "former" extremists to do the government's bidding.

As the brutal hacking death of a British soldier by two fearless jihadis chanting "Allah O Akbar" has shown, this strategy has failed. Muslims who see the West as the enemy and seek its destruction have become even more emboldened by the lack of resolve, which they see as cowardice. In addition, jihadis in the U.K. are no longer restricted to the second generation Pakistani Britons; they now come from places as far apart as Chechnya and Nigeria.

While the run-of-the-mill jihadi terror attack relies on suicide bombers and remote-controlled improvised explosive devices, Wednesday's attack came straight from medieval times, with the two jihadis using knives and cleavers to hack away at the victim and then beheading him. If this was not enough, they played to the gallery, demanding they be filmed as they chatted with passers-by, proudly defending their actions and promising more attacks on non-Muslims to come.

If the latest act of jihadi terror was different in nature, the reaction by mainstream Islamic groups and prominent Muslims in Britain was not. It was exactly the same as it has been after every tragic incident. Old press releases were brushed off and sent afresh to the media.

While ordinary Britons and non-Muslims around the world are bewildered by these never-ending acts of terrorism, the response of the leaders of the Islamic community is the tired old cliche -- Islam is a religion of peace, and jihad is simply an "inner struggle."

The fact these terrorists are motivated by one powerful belief -- the doctrine of armed jihad against the "kuffar" (non-Muslims) -- is disingenuously denied by Islamic clerics and leaders.

Yesterday, instead of calling on Muslims to shelve the doctrine of armed jihad, predictably, the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) issued a quick press release claiming the "barbaric" attack has "no basis in Islam."

Not true, MCB. As a Muslim, I can say without fear, the latest terror attack has a basis in Islam and it's time for us Muslims to dig our heads out of the sand.

The MCB was not alone. Imam Makkah Masjid in Leeds, Qari Asim, MBE said, "Islam does not permit vigilante attacks on anyone and therefore such inhumane acts have no place in Islam."

If the Imam was trying to put the best face of Islam to the British people, the London Muslim Centre was careful not to even mention the fact the two terrorists were Muslim, claiming instead that "criminals and murderers do not represent any community or religion. We remain steadfast in opposing all forms of hate and terrorism."

The Islamic Society of Britain joined in the chorus, stating, "justifying this killing in the name of faith or religion is false and rejected," again failing to mention the fact the terrorists were killing in the name of Islam, not just any "faith or religion."

Hundreds of British Muslims tweeted their condemnation of the act, but not one individual or organization had the courage to point out and admit the fact Sharia-backed doctrine of armed jihad does permit holy war on non-Muslims, specially in the land of the "kufaar."

This was an opportunity for the Muslim leadership to confess they have failed and that the time has come to admit that jihadis cannot be fought without fighting the doctrine of jihad.

It is worth noting that not a single Muslim cleric since 9/11 has mustered the courage to say the doctrine of armed jihad is defunct and inapplicable in the 21st century. They rightfully denounce terrorism, but dare not denounce jihad.

On the contrary, we keep hearing the propaganda that "Jihad" has nothing to do with warfare. Here is what the "Shorter Encyclopedia of Islam" has to say about Jihad:

"DJIHAD(A), holy war. The spread of Islam by arms is a religious duty upon Muslims in general. It narrowly escaped being a sixth 'rukn,' or fundamental duty."

The only Muslim group that has come to this conclusion are Ahmadi Muslims, whose founder Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in the nineteenth century had the wisdom to declare:

"I have brought a commandment for you people; it is that henceforth 'jihad by sword' [armed jihad] is forbidden ... Now jihad for the sake of religion is prohibited."

For uttering these words, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was deemed to have blasphemed and was declared an apostate by the orthodoxy in Islam; the same school of thought that provides intellectual sustenance to the Muslim establishment in the West today.

The armed jihad launched against the infidels, is clearly promoted by the 20th-century writings of such Islamists as Syed Qutb and Hassan al-Banna of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood and the late Syed Maudoodi of Jamaat-e-Islami of Indo-Pakistan.

In his book Towards Understanding Islam, Maudoodi exhorts ordinary Muslims to launch jihad, as in armed struggle, against non-Muslims. "Jihad is part of this overall defence of Islam," he writes. In case the reader is left with any doubt about the meaning of the word "jihad," Maudoodi clarifies:

"In the language of the Divine Law, this word (jihad) is used specifically for the war that is waged solely in the name of God against those who perpetrate oppression as enemies of Islam. This supreme sacrifice is the responsibility of all Muslims."

Maudoodi goes on to label Muslims who refuse the call to armed jihad as apostates:

"Jihad is as much a primary duty as are daily prayers or fasting. One who avoids it is a sinner. His every claim to being a Muslim is doubtful. He is plainly a hypocrite who fails in the test of sincerity and all his acts of worship are a sham, a worthless, hollow show of deception."

If Maudoodi's exhortations are not enough to motivate Muslims to conduct acts of terror, we have the words of the late Hassan al-Banna being distributed in our schools and universities. Al-Banna makes it quite clear that the word "jihad" means armed conflict. He mocks those who claim jihad is merely an internal struggle.

Al-Banna says this redefinition of the term "jihad" to depict it as a non-violent act of self-examination, is in fact a conspiracy so that "Muslims should become negligent."

And here is what Syed Qutb, another Egyptian stalwart of the Islamist movement and the Muslim Brotherhood, writes in his seminal work on Islam and its relationship with the West, Milestones:

"A Muslim will remain prepared to fight against it (non-Muslim country), whether it be his birthplace or a place where his relatives reside or where his property or any other material interests are located."

Unless the leaders of British mosques as well as the Islamic organizations in the U.K. denounce the doctrine of jihad as pronounced by the Muslim Brotherhood and Jamaat-e-Islami, and distance themselves from the ideology of Qutb, al-Banna and Maudoodi, they stand complicit in the havoc that these jihadis are raining down on the rest of us.

They cannot have it both ways: promoting the teachings of Maududi and Qutb among Muslim youth, while concealing the same teachings from the rest of Britain.

lemontree
28 May 13,, 10:42
Oh shut up.

Your intolerance has no limits.

Dok, why blame double..The French just had a soldier get stabbed in Paris by a man possibly of North African origin and wearing a white Arab-style tunic. Double is just reacting to the "tolerance" shown by the stabbers and beheaders in UK and France.

French soldier stabbed while on patrol near Paris | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/25/us-france-stabbing-idUSBRE94O09420130525)
They patrol the tourist parts of Paris is groups of 3,...one soldier was stabbed and the culprit got away, ....what the hell the were other two dolts doing of his patrol doing!!!

doppelganger
28 May 13,, 10:47
Dok, why blame double..The French just had a soldier get stabbed in Paris by a man possibly of North African origin and wearing a white Arab-style tunic.

Sir in a debate or discussion or any exchange of opinion, when you get angry, you basically admit that you have lost.

Shut up, go away, etc. are easier to say than actually try and refute someone's argument with a superior one.

Doktor
28 May 13,, 11:02
Dok, why blame double..The French just had a soldier get stabbed in Paris by a man possibly of North African origin and wearing a white Arab-style tunic. Double is just reacting to the "tolerance" shown by the stabbers and beheaders in UK and France.
Captain,

I have no problem with Dopps, I have problem with his ignorant view and trying to paint everything as black or white (or in his case brown:rolleyes:). He is blinded with his prejudices.

One of the worse UK homegrown terrorists is white female. Just saying.


They patrol the tourist parts of Paris is groups of 3,...one soldier was stabbed and the culprit got away, ....what the hell the were other two dolts doing of his patrol doing!!!
Bet the French wonder the same. However, when I was in France I have seen patrols of Gendarmes, never seen soldiers.

doppelganger
28 May 13,, 11:05
I wonder whatever happened to the universal forum rule of discussing the post and not the poster.

The point is not white, black, brown, or yellow.

The point is about an ideology before which all of these are merely pawns meant to serve the greater goal.

This is not racial. Quite the opposite.

Its the way the ideology is telling the unbelievers that its spread all around us, and we are safe nowhere, from no one.

Doktor
28 May 13,, 11:05
Sir in a debate or discussion or any exchange of opinion, when you get angry, you basically admit that you have lost.

Shut up, go away, etc. are easier to say than actually try and refute someone's argument with a superior one.

You can think what you want. I am just tired. Your stamina of spewing ignorant posts is remarkable. There, you are superior ;)

doppelganger
28 May 13,, 11:06
There, you are superior ;)

No I am not.

We are talking about arguments here, not people.

tankie
28 May 13,, 12:07
Jeez now look , we give em free board/lodge , 3 meals a day , and they treat us like this ,,sheeeesh :slap:



THREE fanatical Muslim convicts stabbed and battered a prison officer after taking him hostage.
The terrified warder was freed after a four-hour ordeal at Full Sutton Prison, East Yorks — said to have been inspired by the murder and attempted beheading of soldier Lee Rigby by two extremists in Woolwich on Wednesday.
The unnamed male officer was in hospital last night and is lucky to be alive, sources said yesterday.

Murdered ... Lee Rigby
A female prison guard was also injured as she tried to stop the brutes dragging her colleague away.
Full Sutton jail houses some of Britain’s most dangerous terrorists and criminals and is notorious for its hardline Muslim inmates.
A source said: “This had all the hallmarks of a pre-planned attack inspired by the Woolwich atrocity.
“It’s something officials have been fearing could happen for several years and now it finally has.
“The officer was frankly lucky to survive. The attack was brutal. He is badly shaken but realises how fortunate he’s been.”
The officer’s injuries were said to include a broken jaw. The convicts snatched him near the kitchens of the jail’s E Wing on Sunday at about 4pm.
Full Sutton’s governor Paul Foweather was kept informed as officers initially locked around 600 inmates in their cells and tried to calm the explosive stand-off.
But within minutes a decision was taken to call in the crack National Tactical Response Group — the Prison Service’s version of a riot squad. They finally managed to free the officer shortly before 9pm.
The attackers were believed to include two men who are serving long sentences and a third who converted to Islam in prison. He is said to be a white man jailed for a serious violent offence.
Full Sutton prison officers are now calling for an increase in manpower. The source said: “It’s fair to say they feel that with the increased threat against them, they need more officers and more resources.”
You can make a donation to Help for Heroes online at www.helpforheroes.org.uk or by calling 01725 514130. You can also give £5 by texting “HERO” to 70900
Terrorism expert Neil Doyle yesterday said the attack on the prison officer appeared to have been staged in support of those who murdered Lee.
He added: “Terrorist incidents like that of last week often serve to inspire others. AlQaeda has for some time now been preaching a strategy based on smaller, individual attacks rather than larger, more complex ‘spectaculars’ which are harder to plan and more likely to alert the security services.
“Prison officers are under no illusions of the dangers they face and they will be on high alert for copycat attacks.”
The Prison Service has long been concerned at the spread of radical Islam inside Britain's jails.
Experts say a tiny number of fanatics, most serving long sentences, have huge influence over disaffected young Muslims.
Just last March, prison inspectors warned about growing tensions at Full Sutton — where, in 2009, a plot was uncovered involving the escape of nine Muslims, including some terrorists, in a hijacked helicopter. Accomplices on the outside intended to hire the chopper to land inside the prison's walls at gunpoint. Among those who have served time in Full Sutton are Bluewater bomb plot ringleader Omar Khyam, 31.
Britain is still in shock after soldier Lee, 25, of 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, was hacked to death in the street.
Killers Michael Adebolajo, 28, and Michael Adebowale, 22, were still in separate hospitals last night after being shot by police on Wednesday. A Prison Service spokesman last night confirmed: “An incident involving three prisoners took place at HMP Full Sutton. A police investigation is ongoing.”
- CABBIE Tayyab Subhani, 30, and restaurant worker Mohammed Safdar, 41, were yesterday remanded in custody after appearing at Chelmsford Magistrates Court accused of threatening to blow up a Pakistan Airlines jet bound for Manchester.
t.wells@the-sun.co.uk
myView
By TOM WELLS, Home Affairs Correspondent
SUNDAY’S attack on a serving prison officer is a stark reminder of the challenges of working behind bars.
The creep of Islamic extremism in British jails over the past decade is no secret — experts warned of its threat for years.
But this is a chilling warning to those in Whitehall.
Last year an MPs’ report suggested many lags had only converted to Islam for personal protection and were not true fanatics.
Others have claimed those responsible were limited to a few jailed hate preachers or terror kingpins.
Yet the reality is cuts to numbers now make prison officers sitting targets for violent cons infected with a warped religious zeal.


Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4945112/fanatics-stab-jail-hostage-warder-full-sutton-prison.html#ixzz2Ua43bMl7

doppelganger
28 May 13,, 12:56
Jeez now look , we give em free board/lodge , 3 meals a day , and they treat us like this ,,sheeeesh :slap:


Yes, the UK muslim is a special breed and seems to be bucking Dr. Peter Hammond's trend.

You definitely are well into stage 3 now.

The numbers will catch up soon. They don't like being underachievers any more than the rest of us.

chanjyj
28 May 13,, 13:14
You can think what you want. I am just tired. Your stamina of spewing ignorant posts is remarkable. There, you are superior ;)

Doktor, just leave if you're tired. I find it pointless and time wasting - do your remember Mike Sparks?

tankie
28 May 13,, 13:42
It had to happen i suppose :mad: but we can always pray the little boy takes his finger out of the dyke .

Sick Dutch comedy TV sketch mocks Lee Rigby murder | The Sun |News (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4944640/Sick-Dutch-comedy-TV-sketch-mocks-Lee-Rigby-murder.html)

Double Edge
28 May 13,, 16:07
Jeez now look , we give em free board/lodge , 3 meals a day , and they treat us like this ,,sheeeesh :slap:



THREE fanatical Muslim convicts stabbed and battered a prison officer after taking him hostage.
The terrified warder was freed after a four-hour ordeal at Full Sutton Prison, East Yorks — said to have been inspired by the murder and attempted beheading of soldier Lee Rigby by two extremists in Woolwich on Wednesday.

Copy cat attempt, the one in France is being seen in the same light.

Double Edge
28 May 13,, 16:08
Shut up, go away, etc. are easier to say than actually try and refute someone's argument with a superior one.
What is your argument ?

tankie
28 May 13,, 16:15
Copy cat attempt, the one in France is being seen in the same light.

I was being sarky in my post which i think you know , copycat or not D/E its happening . bastards

tankie
28 May 13,, 16:21
Watch all way lads n lasses .

NEW Tommy Robinson speaks about the Woolwich terrorist attack and EDL response COELUS - YouTube (http://youtu.be/GjNfQGm2HeI)

Double Edge
28 May 13,, 16:49
I was being sarky in my post which i think you know , copycat or not D/E its happening . bastards
Happening yes but the pattern is holding. Cannot kill more in the attempt. Point is this is not escalation but duplication.

When's the last time you had bombs go off ? a long while back isn't it. Why nothing more since ? You're winning.

Did the UK deviate from its foreign policy as a result ? no.

tankie
28 May 13,, 17:00
Happening yes but the pattern is holding. Cannot kill more in the attempt. Point is this is not escalation but duplication.

When's the last time you had bombs go off ? a long while back isn't it. Why nothing more since ? You're winning.

Did the UK deviate from its foreign policy as a result ? no.

Dont give a shit about France , its here im bothered about , and the murder was here 1st ,escalation of tensions , deviation from f/p , we will have to wait and see ,see if camoron n crew can grow some and tell the likes of Pakistan etc , fuck off , no more cash , and sod the eu n human rights while we're at it ,, yes

cataphract
28 May 13,, 17:43
Dont give a shit about France , its here im bothered about , and the murder was here 1st ,escalation of tensions , deviation from f/p , we will have to wait and see ,see if camoron n crew can grow some and tell the likes of Pakistan etc , fuck off , no more cash , and sod the eu n human rights while we're at it ,, yes

C'mon tankie, Pakistan no longer has anything to do with this case. UK has a homegrown terror problem. These nuts get radicalized on British soil without ever having to visit the madrassas in Pakistan.

tankie
28 May 13,, 17:52
C'mon tankie, Pakistan no longer has anything to do with this case. UK has a homegrown terror problem. These nuts get radicalized on British soil without ever having to visit the madrassas in Pakistan.

I was referring to the foreign aid , ie the half billion each year we send to Pak n the 50 million per day to the EU m8 .in the post from D/E .

But Pakistan has a hell of a lot to do with the radicalisation and training of likewise arseholes to commit armed jihad .

tankie
28 May 13,, 18:05
This guy says it like it is , reiterates everything people say , but he does it better .


Muslims must reject jihad - YouTube (http://youtu.be/Oz267A6jhbw)

Double Edge
28 May 13,, 18:30
Dont give a shit about France , its here im bothered about , and the murder was here 1st ,escalation of tensions , deviation from f/p , we will have to wait and see
Was referring to the prison attack you posted.

France is interesting because they did not really involve themselves all that much in iraq & Afg. They created a real stink over Iraq. Only place France got stuck in was in Libya. I do not expect jihadi attacks in France as a result of that action.


The latest warning was published on YouTube a few weeks before armed gunmen this week attacked a military base and a French uranium extraction site in the central African state of Niger, killing 24 soldiers and one civilian.
Niger ?

Have to wait until the perp who attacked the French soldier is caught, hopefully alive so we learn the motive.

Oh and about here its happening about. Focusing on one attack alone and coming to conclusions is a waste of time. Trends are better. How did this latest atrocity compare with the average or past record.

Winning, holding or losing. If losing how many times losing. What's the score.

You want to get all worked up over this that is your thing. I prefer to look for victory no matter how fleeting in the least likely of places. I want to be in a position to mock these guys :)

If we are seeing a mad dog type of reaction here then the movement is running out of steam. Attacking anybody & everybody shows they are getting desperate. And this will bring even more pressure on them.

tankie
28 May 13,, 18:41
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh reading in the rags , more pressure is truly on them m8 , even politico's are taking an interest , for a change :frown:

Double Edge
28 May 13,, 18:43
More PR for the cause then. At bargain prices.

When you examine their campaign since 9/11 its been just PR. No military wins of any consequence to their name.

We don't like you, we gonna keeel you...

bla bla...

Pedicabby
28 May 13,, 18:43
Good post Tankie.

tankie
28 May 13,, 20:39
We cant win , the playing fields warped

British Muslim daubs war memorial with Islamic slogans... but CPS says he was NOT racially motivated | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1270021/British-Muslim-daubs-war-memorial-Islamic-slogans--CPS-says-NOT-racially-motivated.html)

Firestorm
29 May 13,, 02:03
Bystanders in their own fate (http://www.ocregister.com/articles/islam-509955-london-british.html)



By MARK STEYN

Syndicated columnist
letters@ocregister.com

On Wednesday, Drummer Lee Rigby of the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, a man who had served Queen and country honorably in the hell of Helmand Province in Afghanistan, emerged from his barracks on Wellington Street, named after the Duke thereof, in southeast London. Minutes later, he was hacked to death in broad daylight and in full view of onlookers by two men with machetes who crowed "Allahu Akbar!" as they dumped his carcass in the middle of the street like so much roadkill.

As grotesque as this act of savagery was, the aftermath was even more unsettling. The perpetrators did not, as the Tsarnaev brothers did in Boston, attempt to escape. Instead, they held court in the street, gloating over their trophy, and flagged down a London bus to demand the passengers record their triumph on film. As the crowd of bystanders swelled, the remarkably urbane savages posed for photographs with the remains of their victim while discoursing on the iniquities of Britain toward the Muslim world. Having killed Drummer Rigby, they were killing time: it took 20 minutes for the somnolent British constabulary to show up. And so television viewers were treated to the spectacle of a young man, speaking in the vowels of south London, chatting calmly with his "fellow Britons" about his geopolitical grievances and apologizing to the ladies present for any discomfort his beheading of Drummer Rigby might have caused them, all while drenched in blood and still wielding his cleaver.

If you're thinking of getting steamed over all that, don't. Simon Jenkins, the former editor of The Times of London, cautioned against "mass hysteria" over "mundane acts of violence."

That's easy for him to say. Woolwich is an unfashionable part of town, and Sir Simon is unlikely to find himself there on an afternoon stroll. Drummer Rigby had less choice in the matter. Being jumped by barbarians with machetes is certainly "mundane" in Somalia and Sudan, but it's the sort of thing that would once have been considered somewhat unusual on a sunny afternoon in south London – at least as unusual as, say, blowing up 8-year-old boys at the Boston Marathon. It was "mundane" only in the sense that, as at weddings and kindergarten concerts, the reflexive reaction of everybody present was to get out their cellphones and start filming.

Once, long ago, I was in an altercation where someone pulled a switchblade, and ever since have been mindful of Jimmy Hoffa's observation that he'd rather jump a gun than a knife. Nevertheless, there is a disturbing passivity to this scene: a street full of able-bodied citizens being lectured to by blood-soaked murderers who have no fear that anyone will be minded to interrupt their diatribes. In fairness to the people of Boston, they were ordered to "shelter in place" by the Governor of Massachusetts. In Woolwich, a large crowd of Londoners apparently volunteered to "shelter in place," instinctively. Consider how that will play when these guys' jihadist snuff video is being hawked around the bazaars of the Muslim world. Behold the infidels, content to be bystanders in their own fate.

This passivity set the tone for what followed. In London as in Boston, the politico-media class immediately lapsed into the pneumatic multiculti Tourette's that seems to be a chronic side-effect of excess diversity-celebrating: No Islam to see here, nothing to do with Islam, all these body parts in the street are a deplorable misinterpretation of Islam. The BBC's Nick Robinson accidentally described the men as being "of Muslim appearance," but quickly walked it back lest impressionable types get the idea that there's anything "of Muslim appearance" about a guy waving a machete and saying "Allahu Akbar." A man is on TV, dripping blood in front of a dead British soldier and swearing "by Almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you," yet it's the BBC reporter who's apologizing for "causing offence." To David Cameron, Drummer Rigby's horrific end was "not just an attack on Britain and on the British way of life, it was also a betrayal of Islam. ... There is nothing in Islam that justifies this truly dreadful act."

How does he know? He doesn't seem the most-likely Koranic scholar. Appearing on David Letterman's show a while back, Cameron was unable to translate into English the words "Magna Carta," which has quite a bit to do with that "British way of life" he's so keen on. But apparently it's because he's been up to his neck in suras and hadiths every night, sweating for Shariah 101. So has Scotland Yard's Deputy Assistant Commissioner, Brian Paddick, who reassured us after the London Tube bombings that "Islam and terrorism don't go together," and the Mayor of Toronto, David Miller, telling NPR listeners after 19 Muslims were arrested for plotting to behead the Canadian Prime Minister: "You know, in Islam, if you kill one person you kill everybody," he said in a somewhat loose paraphrase of Koran 5:32 that manages to leave out some important loopholes. "It's a very peaceful religion."

That's why it fits so harmoniously into famously peaceful societies like, say, Sweden. For the past week, Stockholm has been ablaze every night with hundreds of burning cars set alight by "youths." Any particular kind of "youth"? The Swedish Prime Minister declined to identify them any more precisely than as "hooligans." But don't worry: The "hooligans" and "youths" and men of no Muslim appearance whatsoever can never win because, as David Cameron ringingly declared, "they can never beat the values we hold dear, the belief in freedom, in democracy, in free speech, in our British values, Western values." Actually, they've already gone quite a way toward eroding free speech, as both Prime Ministers demonstrate. The short version of what happened in Woolwich is that two Muslims butchered a British soldier in the name of Islam and helpfully explained, "The only reason we have done this is because Muslims are dying every day." But what do they know? They're only Muslims, not Diversity Outreach Coordinators. So the BBC, in its so-called "Key Points," declined to mention the "Allahu Akbar" bit or the "I-word" at all: Allah who?

Not a lot of Muslims want to go to the trouble of chopping your head off, but when so many Western leaders have so little rattling around up there, they don't have to. And, as we know from the sob-sister Tsarnaev profiles, most of these excitable lads are perfectly affable, or at least no more than mildly alienated, until the day they set a hundred cars alight, or blow up a schoolboy, or decapitate some guy. And, if you're lucky, it's not you they behead, or your kid they kill, or even your Honda Civic they light up. And so life goes on, and it's all so "mundane," in Simon Jenkins' word, that you barely notice when the Jewish school shuts up, and the gay bar, and the uncovered women no longer take a stroll too late in the day, and the publishing house that gets sent the manuscript for the next "Satanic Verses" decides it's not worth the trouble. But don't worry, they'll never defeat our "free speech" and our "way of life."

One in 10 Britons under 25 now is Muslim. That number will increase, through immigration, disparate birth rates, and conversions like those of the Woolwich killers, British born and bred. Metternich liked to say the Balkans began in the Landstrasse, in south-east Vienna. Today, the dar al-Islam begins in Wellington Street, in southeast London. That's a "betrayal" all right, but not of Islam.

Bigfella
29 May 13,, 13:03
This relates to the Woolwich murder, but also to wider issues of definition that have come up more than once. If the Mods want to spin it off into a separate thread then by all means do so.

More than once when there have been attacks like that in Woolwich the question has arisen 'is this terrorism?'. When an organized group mounts an attack it seems straightforward. When someone like the Unabomber mounts a lengthy campaign & publishes a manifesto we see it too. But what about other acts?

Sadly there is nothing new about people with some grudge - real or perceived - attacking innocents to make some point. At what point do we say that a cause or grudge of some sort turns an act into terrorism? A few years back I recall a guy flew a plane into an IRS building in the US murdering an employee - otherwise sane people as much as defended the guy because they disliked the IRS. If he had been Muslim & his grudge had been related to the invasion of Iraq or somesuch would we have trouble labelling the act?

This comes up as a result of the arrest of two ex-soldiers in Grimsby for firebombing an Islamic Centre while people were inside. Are these guys terrorists? Would they be if it was Muslims firebombing a church?


The Grimsby Islamic Cultural Centre was targeted by arsonists on Sunday night, despite an increased police presence in the area following another attack on the complex three days ago.

Humberside Police said a fire was started at the centre on Weelsby Road shortly before 10pm. No-one was injured and two people were arrested soon after by officers who were patrolling in the area.

A police spokesman said it was too early to speculate about why the fire was started in Lincolnshire and appealed for witnesses.

The force said that it had discovered a number of messages on social networking sites that appeared to invite people to meet at various locations and cause trouble.

The spokesman added: "Those people should be aware that we are monitoring these sites in Humberside and we will take action against those intent on attempting to incite violence or post messages of a racial nature."

The centre's chairman has described how he was inside with a young family when it was hit by petrol bombs.

Diler Gharib told the Grimsby Telegraph: "We had just finished our prayers and were discussing how to thank our neighbours for the support they have shown us over the past few days when we heard a bang and saw fire coming under the door.

Two arrested over Grimsby Islamic centre fire - Channel 4 News (http://www.channel4.com/news/woolwich-two-arrested-over-grimsby-islamic-centre-fire?3423)


Two former soldiers are appearing in court this lunchtime charged in connection with an alleged petrol bombing of a mosque in Grimsby.

Stuart Harness, 33, and Gavin Humphries, aged 37, are appearing at Grimsby Magistrates' Court today charged with arson with intent to endanger life after the Grimsby Islamic Cultural Centre was attacked.

The centre, on Weelsby Road, was allegedly attacked on Sunday.They've been remanded in custody.

Two former soldiers in court over Grimsby arson | Calendar - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/update/2013-05-28/two-former-soliders-in-court-over-grimsby-arson/)

Doktor
29 May 13,, 13:33
BF,

It all depends how literally you take the definitions and if it is somehow changed during the time.

Bottom line is, both cases you mention are terrorism by definition. If someone wants to give them different tune for political reasons, it will be that way.

In 2001 Albanians that took part in the clashes here were first labeled terrorist, then rebels, then human rights fighters.

It all depends on the agenda.


ter∑ror∑ism
/ˈterəˌrizəm/

Noun
The use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

tankie
29 May 13,, 13:46
There is absolutely no threat of Shari'a law ever being imposed on Britain..

Well lets hope this gets many votes then , ;)

Ban all sharia law in the u.k - e-petitions (http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/48352)

Doktor
29 May 13,, 13:48
Tankie,

How come you have a parallel judicial system with 85 courts?

One would assume in organized country such as UK this would not happen.

tankie
29 May 13,, 13:56
Tankie,

How come you have a parallel judicial system with 85 courts?

One would assume in organized country such as UK this would not happen.

Ohhh, I think you know the answer matey , but im gonna give you a small hint

GUTLESS POLITICO;S AND THE EX ARCHBISHOP OF CUNTERBURY

maybe now after this murder the truth is emerging , 85 active courts , no wonder they take no notice of our laws , if they wish to live here they should live the way we do and respect the country who has accepted them .

Doktor
29 May 13,, 13:57
Silly me,

I thought the police and other agencies had a common name - Law Enforcement.

tankie
29 May 13,, 14:16
Silly me,

I thought the police and other agencies had a common name - Law Enforcement.

That honour is reserved for the nasty indigenous population , the type that paint poppies on mosques and jailed after war memorials had islam daubed on them

Clean-up operation begins at war memorials defaced with Islamic slogans after veterans' charity foots the bill | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2332108/Clean-operation-begins-war-memorials-defaced-Islamic-slogans-veterans-charity-foots-bill.html)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=606139832731302&set=a.243378289007460.71744.213085425370080&type=1&ref=nf

Double Edge
29 May 13,, 21:37
At what point do we say that a cause or grudge of some sort turns an act into terrorism?
Any violent act committed against the state or its agents over their actions. Technically this is what insurgents do, so there is a little bit of grey here.

If it was an attack on civilians then its more in the terror definition.


A few years back I recall a guy flew a plane into an IRS building in the US murdering an employee - otherwise sane people as much as defended the guy because they disliked the IRS. If he had been Muslim & his grudge had been related to the invasion of Iraq or somesuch would we have trouble labelling the act?
Same thing again, closer to terror than insurgent.


This comes up as a result of the arrest of two ex-soldiers in Grimsby for firebombing an Islamic Centre while people were inside. Are these guys terrorists? Would they be if it was Muslims firebombing a church?
Arson in both cases. At least that's what i'd like to call it without using any hate qualifier.

Damn it, this happened as a reaction to the soldier. Lets see how it gets exploited. Or will it work as a deterrent.

This is the sort of force multiplier that should not happen because it makes the initial act even more significant. Giving it more bang for the buck. This leads to more such initial acts because, hey, if it leads to others then its worth it.

Parihaka
29 May 13,, 21:41
This relates to the Woolwich murder, but also to wider issues of definition that have come up more than once. If the Mods want to spin it off into a separate thread then by all means do so.

More than once when there have been attacks like that in Woolwich the question has arisen 'is this terrorism?'. When an organized group mounts an attack it seems straightforward. When someone like the Unabomber mounts a lengthy campaign & publishes a manifesto we see it too. But what about other acts?

Sadly there is nothing new about people with some grudge - real or perceived - attacking innocents to make some point. At what point do we say that a cause or grudge of some sort turns an act into terrorism? A few years back I recall a guy flew a plane into an IRS building in the US murdering an employee - otherwise sane people as much as defended the guy because they disliked the IRS. If he had been Muslim & his grudge had been related to the invasion of Iraq or somesuch would we have trouble labelling the act?

This comes up as a result of the arrest of two ex-soldiers in Grimsby for firebombing an Islamic Centre while people were inside. Are these guys terrorists? Would they be if it was Muslims firebombing a church?



Two arrested over Grimsby Islamic centre fire - Channel 4 News (http://www.channel4.com/news/woolwich-two-arrested-over-grimsby-islamic-centre-fire?3423)



Two former soldiers in court over Grimsby arson | Calendar - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/update/2013-05-28/two-former-soliders-in-court-over-grimsby-arson/)


BF,

It all depends how literally you take the definitions and if it is somehow changed during the time.

Bottom line is, both cases you mention are terrorism by definition. If someone wants to give them different tune for political reasons, it will be that way.

In 2001 Albanians that took part in the clashes here were first labeled terrorist, then rebels, then human rights fighters.

It all depends on the agenda.
Terrorism itself is such a wooly term, primarily because at it's core it is a political act and politics vary greatly from country to country. The Woolwich murder IMHO didn't leave the British population terrorised because they have a general consensus on what to do about it: assimilation or expulsion. As ugly as that sounds, it's a cultural shibboleth (in the old sense of the word) oft repeated through history and voiced by members of many different cultures here. The only really 'scared' people are the politicians; the only response of the British ones is to ignore the crime apart from saying they support Help For Heroes as though that charity was the primary cause of the attack on Lee Rigby

Pedicabby
29 May 13,, 21:52
Well lets hope this gets many votes then , ;)

Ban all sharia law in the u.k - e-petitions (http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/48352)

Done.

Doktor
29 May 13,, 21:56
Are you an UK citizen?

Double Edge
29 May 13,, 22:01
How come you have a parallel judicial system with 85 courts?

One would assume in organized country such as UK this would not happen.
They apply only in the personal law realm, same exists in India & Israel since day 1. Does not usually make the news. Brits played a role in both places.

Pedicabby
29 May 13,, 22:42
Are you an UK citizen?

I have indefinite leave to remain. I will be a citizen next year.

tankie
30 May 13,, 13:14
Why are we English pissed off ,heres why below

This man radicalized the killer of Lee Rigby, yet the Authorities refuse to arrest him! The Britain First campaign to perform a 'citizens arrest' on this maniac has highlighted the shame of police appeasement regarding Islamist hate preachers. The law introduced to contain these peddlers of hate (sect 6) has never been used on the Muslim hate preachers, instead the only people charged under this legislation have been three British patriots in Ulster during the recent Union flag protests!
This carefully stage managed photo shoot is aimed at gaining Choudary public sympathy,,IT WILL NOT WORK! He is a preacher of hate and his associates butchered our brave soldier on our streets and we renew our call to have him ARRESTED! :mad:

Police rush to home of hate preacher Anjem Choudary to protect him and his family after threats as he blames Cameron's 'crusade' for 'turning young Muslims to terror' | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2333199/Police-rush-home-hate-preacher-Anjem-Choudary-protect-family-threats-blames-Camerons-crusade-turning-young-Muslims-terror.html)

Double Edge
30 May 13,, 14:24
Why are we English pissed off ,heres why below

This man radicalized the killer of Lee Rigby, yet the Authorities refuse to arrest him! The Britain First campaign to perform a 'citizens arrest' on this maniac has highlighted the shame of police appeasement regarding Islamist hate preachers. The law introduced to contain these peddlers of hate (sect 6) has never been used on the Muslim hate preachers, instead the only people charged under this legislation have been three British patriots in Ulster during the recent Union flag protests!
Got to catch them in the act. Where are the undercover recordings of his advocating of violence. Ain't got nothing have you. Guilty by association does not count.

Anjem is, to use your colourful characterisation, "a 24 carat cnut" but he's a smart cnut.

Hate alone does not and should never qualify.

This is they key.


This carefully stage managed photo shoot is aimed at gaining Choudary public sympathy,,IT WILL NOT WORK! He is a preacher of hate and his associates butchered our brave soldier on our streets and we renew our call to have him ARRESTED! :mad:
No its got nothing to do with public sympathy, its got everything to do with not making false arrests.

This is the inverse of Salman Rushdie.


Police rush to home of hate preacher Anjem Choudary to protect him and his family after threats as he blames Cameron's 'crusade' for 'turning young Muslims to terror' | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2333199/Police-rush-home-hate-preacher-Anjem-Choudary-protect-family-threats-blames-Camerons-crusade-turning-young-Muslims-terror.html)
Very good, this shows you guys believe in defending free speech. For a moment i was worried you'd go get all wobbly over this. Hats off to you guys :)

If this guy was in India he'd have been banged up long ago. THAT is the difference between us. Foolishly, we have a right to be pissed off, fortunately and for now you still do not.

If he was not arrested we'd see outfits, any outfits, rioting and destroying public property at the slightest of provocations, this is the usual affair. So in the interests of 'public safety' we say arrest him. BS!.

Far-right groups demand he is arrested or they will detain him themselves
This one cracked me up, reminded me of an incident in FATA where the Taliban threatened to blow up the electricty office if they did not switch the power back on.

hammer
30 May 13,, 14:45
If this guy was in India he'd have been banged up long ago. THAT is the difference between us.

Really? Zakir Naik and Akbaraddin Owaisi. The second A**h*le even threatened a Hindu genocide. All living well protected by the govt. Owaisi would not have survived in UK.

tankie
30 May 13,, 15:07
D/E Section 6 allows his arrest for inciting violence which he preaches . yup 24 carat right enuff .

tankie
30 May 13,, 15:40
Cover blown , watch all the way through D/E

ANJEM BLOWS HIS COVER ON NEWSNIGHT - YouTube (http://youtu.be/B9PUDoYc8s8)

notorious_eagle
30 May 13,, 16:34
A mosque has been praised for serving tea and biscuits to English Defence League supporters after the far-right group arranged a demonstration there.

About six people turned up to protest at the mosque in Bull Lane, York, on Sunday and were invited inside to play football with worshippers.

More than 100 supporters of the mosque had gone there after learning of the planned EDL protest.

Archbishop of York Dr John Sentamu said the mosque's response was "fantastic".

He said: "Tea, biscuits, and football are a great and typically Yorkshire combination when it comes to disarming hostile and extremist views."

'Proud moment'
Father Tim Jones, who went to the Bull Lane mosque, which is situated in his parish, said: "I've always known they were intelligent and compassionate people and I think this has demonstrated the extent to which they are people of courage - certainly physical courage and also a high degree of moral courage.

"I think the world can learn from what happened outside that ramshackle little mosque on Sunday."

Hull Road ward councillor Neil Barnes said it had been a "proud moment for York".

He said: "I don't think I'll ever forget the day that the York Mosque tackled anger and hatred with peace and warmth - and I won't forget the sight of a Muslim offering a protester tea and biscuits with absolute sincerity."

Fears over a demonstration grew after Yorkshire EDL Scarborough Division posted a message on its Facebook page calling for supporters to gather outside the mosque.

Imam Abid Salik said: "We did have a few people who did come to protest but when they came some of the members of the mosque went over and they engaged in a conversation.

"Some people went over with cups of tea and biscuits, they were talking for about 30 or 40 minutes and then they came inside, which was a really, really beautiful thing."

BBC News - York Mosque praised for offering EDL protesters tea (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-22689552)

Mr. Anjum Chaudhary, take a note from this Imam.

Double Edge
30 May 13,, 18:08
Cover blown , watch all the way through D/E

ANJEM BLOWS HIS COVER ON NEWSNIGHT - YouTube (http://youtu.be/B9PUDoYc8s8)
Your daily mail article already covered this. First he says had not seen him then it turns out it was later.

Does not count.

This guy is being watched very keenly by your people as well as detractors.

Make the case. There isn't one yet.

All we have is a public outcry.


D/E Section 6 allows his arrest for inciting violence which he preaches . yup 24 carat right enuff .
Get it on tape, charge him. done.

Double Edge
30 May 13,, 18:21
Really? Zakir Naik and Akbaraddin Owaisi. The second A**h*le even threatened a Hindu genocide. All living well protected by the govt. Owaisi would not have survived in UK.
Zakir Naik - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakir_Naik) - Inflammatory
Akbaruddin Owaisi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akbaruddin_Owaisi) - charged and under trial, released on bail.

Just see the wordplay for Owaisi. Unless its explicit and not implied it does not count.

Course this does not matter for us, just say you were offended and the state will take care of the rest.

An NGO had released a excel file just after the last general elections where we got to see that 30% of our elected MP's in the capital had charges filed against them. 5% were under serious offences. I do recall seeing the charge 'spreading enmity among communities' in that list.

Key point, charges filed, not a single one convicted (!) Why ? lack of evidence.

Bigfella
31 May 13,, 12:37
Lee Rigby's Regiment has issued a statement and has also spoken on behalf of the family. Classy stuff & a nice rejoinder to those claiming to speak or act in his name.


RHQ/RRF/1363 30 May 2013

A number of retired soldiers are evidently being approached and have agreed to take part in demonstrations connected to the death of Fusilier Lee Rigby. I want to make absolutely clear the Regiment's view on this. The hackle and the Regiment is not to be associated with any organisations which seek to exploit the death of one of our Regimental family for a range of self-serving and unhelpful reasons. It is wrong and disgraceful that the death of one of our oven should be exploited in this manner and that dishonour, by wrongful association, is brought onto the Regiment. We are to remain dignified with our heads held high and respect Fusilier Rigby in the way we have all our dead; with honour and pride. We will pay our respects in the correct manner and remember him as a band of brothers. Anger and revenge are understandable emotions but they achieve nothing other than fostering hatred. We are not to be moved from what we know is the right path.

You should be aware that the 1st Battalion has held an evening vigil in Helmand attended by over 800 Fusiliers and Allied troops. The 2nd Battalion will hold a memorial service in Cyprus shortly. Our Regimental Associations across the country have organised, in conjunction with Mayors and Councils and the police, Fusilier family commemoration events, honouring Fus Lee Rigby. In London, serving Fusiliers and soldiers from other Regiments, cadets and the police have held numerous ceremonies to pay respects quietly and with dignity, I am sure the same is happening across the country. This is how the Fusiliers do business and hove we will continue to conduct ourselves.

We must also remember Fusilier Rigby's family who I know support all I have said. Do not allow the death of Fusilier Rigby to be exploited and his and their name used improperly and without the respect they are entitled to and have earned.

Details of Fusilier Lee Rigby's funeral will be promulgated as soon as they are known.

I R Liles
Brigadier (Retd)
Regimental Secretary

https://twitter.com/brianwhelanhack/status/340184493006671872/photo/1

hammer
31 May 13,, 16:53
Zakir Naik - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakir_Naik) - Inflammatory
Akbaruddin Owaisi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akbaruddin_Owaisi) - charged and under trial, released on bail.

Just see the wordplay for Owaisi. Unless its explicit and not implied it does not count.

Course this does not matter for us, just say you were offended and the state will take care of the rest.

An NGO had released a excel file just after the last general elections where we got to see that 30% of our elected MP's in the capital had charges filed against them. 5% were under serious offences. I do recall seeing the charge 'spreading enmity among communities' in that list.

Key point, charges filed, not a single one convicted (!) Why ? lack of evidence.

Actually its the opposite, Zakir Naik has been able to get away so far due to word play and Owaisi did not mince his words to express his hostility against hindus. And this goes to show that your assertion that somehow these "hatemongers" will be "banged up" in India unlike the UK is invalid. Even the worst perpetrators have been dealt with lawfully.

Double Edge
31 May 13,, 17:22
Actually its the opposite, Zakir Naik has been able to get away so far due to word play and Owaisi did not mince his words to express his hostility against hindus.
Can you post his exact words. Because what wiki had on Owaisi was word play for me.


And this goes to show that your assertion that somehow these "hatemongers" will be "banged up" in India unlike the UK is invalid. Even the worst perpetrators have been dealt with lawfully.
banged up is slang that means put in jail. Not assaulted.

Here is what you said..


Really? Zakir Naik and Akbaraddin Owaisi. The second A**h*le even threatened a Hindu genocide. All living well protected by the govt. Owaisi would not have survived in UK.
Second guy has been charged already. Whether it sticks or not remains to be seen.

Firestorm
31 May 13,, 18:34
Can you post his exact words. Because what wiki had on Owaisi was word play for me.

Hope you understand Hindi:
Part 1/2 - Indian MLA Akbaruddin Owaisi Anti Indian Communal Hate Speech at Nirmal - Adilabad - YouTube (http://youtu.be/WI94cm8Zihg)

Part 2/2 - Indian MLA Akbaruddin Owaisi Anti Indian Communal Hate Speech at Nirmal - Adilabad - YouTube (http://youtu.be/JDAtxnoWa7U)

At one point he says that "the 25 crore (250 million) Muslims in India can take care of the 100 crore (1 billion) Hindus if the police stayed away for fifteen minutes".

Keep in mind that this turd is an elected member of the State Assembly.

The UK is much better at handling their loonies than we are.

tankie
31 May 13,, 18:43
Lee Rigby's Regiment has issued a statement and has also spoken on behalf of the family. Classy stuff & a nice rejoinder to those claiming to speak or act in his name.



https://twitter.com/brianwhelanhack/status/340184493006671872/photo/1

Obviously the reg has to distance itself , however blood is boiling and they state EX serving members ? What they do is up to them but im damn sure the serving Reg members are fuming and revenge will be on their minds .Every Reg is its own family , fuck with one , fuck with all of them , killed in combat is expected , but THIS butchery :pari:

Im not inviting any retaliation , no sirreeeeee .

Its just how it is hose A .

Chogy
31 May 13,, 18:56
At what point does someone voicing unpopular views become an enemy of the State, subject to incarceration?

Charge him with sedition.


In law, sedition is overt conduct, such as speech and organization, that is deemed by the legal authority to tend toward insurrection against the established order. Sedition often includes subversion of a constitution and incitement of discontent (or resistance) to lawful authority.

Double Edge
31 May 13,, 20:27
At one point he says that "the 25 crore (250 million) Muslims in India can take care of the 100 crore (1 billion) Hindus if the police stayed away for fifteen minutes".
This is just the kind of word play i was referring to.

Take care ? sponsor, subsidise...

Take care of what..

implied vs explicit

wiki had a similar translation.

he said that the 250 million Muslims of India needed only fifteen minutes without police to show the one billion Hindus of India who is more powerful.

More powerful in what ?

In English it does not mean anything.

Is it more revealing in Hindi ?

Does not matter, he's been charged whether it was about this or anything else is unknown to me.

Same thing in tankie's video.

Go to hell!

WHO are they telling to go to hell.

They cannot be all this fidding around, say it explicitly and then there is no escape. Course the perps are too smart to ever do that.


Keep in mind that this turd is an elected member of the State Assembly.
heh, yeah because if he gets arrested it works very well for self promotion or whatever cause he's promoting. This is where things start to get much more grey and the result is veeery open to interpretation :)

But if one was not an elected member of parliament, for instance, those two girls that got hauled in because they had the temerity to disagree on Facebook with all the outpouring of support over Bal Thackeray's funeral. I challenged this at the time here but it was confirmed.

This is the bit i usually highlight. Does not take much to get into trouble in India over what you say.

Firestorm
31 May 13,, 21:16
This is just the kind of word play i was referring to.

Take care ? sponsor, subsidise...

Take care of what..

implied vs explicit

wiki had a similar translation.

he said that the 250 million Muslims of India needed only fifteen minutes without police to show the one billion Hindus of India who is more powerful.

More powerful in what ?

In English it does not mean anything.

Is it more revealing in Hindi ?
Does not matter, he's been charged whether it was about this or anything else is unknown to me.

You need to listen to the original piece in Hindi. It doesn't translate into English well. The meaning was pretty obvious. He's been charged because of this speech and is out on bail. He also abused Hindu gods and goddesses in his speech. I can't imagine the amount of blood that would have been spilled in riots if a Hindu politician had abused Islam or Mohammad.




heh, yeah because if he gets arrested it works very well for self promotion or whatever cause he's promoting. This is where things start to get much more grey and the result is veeery open to interpretation :)

I pointed out the fact that he was an elected representative as a comparison to the situation in the UK. Anjem Choudhary and his ilk are nobodys in the UK. On the other hand, people like him get elected to parliament in India.


But if one was not an elected member of parliament, for instance, those two girls that got hauled in because they had the temerity to disagree on Facebook with all the outpouring of support over Bal Thackeray's funeral. I challenged this at the time here but it was confirmed.

This is the bit i usually highlight. Does not take much to get into trouble in India over what you say.
Yes, and while those two girls were arrested immediately, Owaisi was running around free for quite a while before even an arrest warrant was issued. I remember Farhan Akhtar the film director tweeting about this fact.

Double Edge
31 May 13,, 23:31
You need to listen to the original piece in Hindi. It doesn't translate into English well. The meaning was pretty obvious. He's been charged because of this speech and is out on bail. He also abused Hindu gods and goddesses in his speech. I can't imagine the amount of blood that would have been spilled in riots if a Hindu politician had abused Islam or Mohammad.
When you say the meaning is obvious, the key point is whether it was explicit or implicit. Does he explicitly say he will kill people. I highly doubt he would ever said that. This guy is smart, just look at this..

In 2011, he said that he would have killed P V Narasimha Rao with his own hands had he not died.
How can you threaten to kill somebody that has already died :)

More weasel words..

In 2007, he threatened to carry out the fatwa to kill Salman Rushdie and behead Taslima Nasreen if they ever visited Hyderabad.

Standard fare for any one dishing out hate plus this guy's a politician.

My point is can Owaisi's defense twist what he said into nothing. If so, he'll walk. No need for any conspiracy when the reason is that plain. Yet another MP with a 'spreading enemity among communities' charge that has to work its way through the courts.


I pointed out the fact that he was an elected representative as a comparison to the situation in the UK. Anjem Choudhary and his ilk are nobodys in the UK. On the other hand, people like him get elected to parliament in India.
Nobody's in India get banged up. We are the most dangerous because we are so numerous :biggrin:


Yes, and while those two girls were arrested immediately, Owaisi was running around free for quite a while before even an arrest warrant was issued. I remember Farhan Akhtar the film director tweeting about this fact.
Ahh, the joys of coming from an influential family.

hammer
01 Jun 13,, 16:06
banged up is slang that means put in jail. Not assaulted.


Very good, this shows you guys believe in defending free speech. For a moment i was worried you'd go get all wobbly over this. Hats off to you guys :)

If this guy was in India he'd have been banged up long ago. THAT is the difference between us. Foolishly, we have a right to be pissed off, fortunately and for now you still do not.


You seem to be applauding the inaction of British govt against these hate spewing turds, even when they manage to turn kids into terrorists with their "free speech" and India seems to be "banging them up" for making a "free speech? Isn't that the gist of your post?

The truth is both these b*stards have been making provocative speeches, that will make Anjem chaudhary look like school kid with a lollypop.
One has managed to use polished words to mask his hate and the other almost went unnoticed till some activists on Twitter brought it to the attention of the media. Now he is out on bail and made another similar hate filled speech as soon as he came out. And he is still roaming free!

If anything India is more lenient towards these a**holes. UK and India seem to be on the same page when not taking these guy seriously and underestimating the influence of these guys in turning young muslim boys into hardcore fanatics.

Double Edge
01 Jun 13,, 19:35
You seem to be applauding the inaction of British govt against these hate spewing turds, even when they manage to turn kids into terrorists with their "free speech" and India seems to be "banging them up" for making a "free speech? Isn't that the gist of your post?
I don't support people getting locked up for delivering hate speech. I think you should be free to say you hate anybody or thing. This way people get to talk about what upsets them. Otherwise it gets bottled up and can become volatile which any interested party can exploit with bad consequences for all.

Course this is my personal view and not the view of either the UK or Indian govts. 9 out of 10 Indians disagree withe me on this yet to an american there is nothing remarkable about what i said. This is the gap we need to cross and is what i'm highlighting.

Turning kids into terrorists, for that you need to show they instructed people on how to kill and to go out and do it. The latter is all that is required to lock somebody up for incitement to violence. Neither has been shown to date. That is the line. Once you start blurring that line then things gets hazy and everybody has a right to be offended as is the case in India.

You know what pissed off tankie the last time Anjem was up to his tricks ? Plastering posters on a street saying Sharia law applies here. That was it. Just that one action got such an outburst i think Anjem was pissing himself with the results.

What so many do not realise is these characters cannot make what they want happen, yet all they have to do is make outlandish statements that tap into people's fears and this gives them wings. A nobody becomes a somebody.


The truth is both these b*stards have been making provocative speeches, that will make Anjem chaudhary look like school kid with a lollypop.
One has managed to use polished words to mask his hate and the other almost went unnoticed till some activists on Twitter brought it to the attention of the media. Now he is out on bail and made another similar hate filled speech as soon as he came out. And he is still roaming free!
Keep jumping up & down every time this bugger opens his mouth and you guarantee more of the same. Very good for business if one is a politician. Who knows, maybe his constituents want a showman to attract attention to their problems and this was the guy for them. For now, whether in the future as well remains to be seen. He has to keep winning elections to stay in office.

Once you start turning implicit into explicit you do exactly what they want. Pay attention to what is said and look for loopholes in their polished words and you will find them. Highlight them and then see what you are left with. Big nothing. They know the laws they know what they can and cannot get away with. They are not in the business of getting themselves jailed, it costs money to win elections and getting jailed is a big slap to his backers, they want to prosper and this guy has found a niche to exploit.

Course the media isn't interested in showing you any of this they want you to be outraged and left scratching your head as to why nothing has been done about it. They leave you hanging. I find this MO very often, because private media's job is not to inform but to turn a profit. Always looking for the next controversy to bring you in bold letters.

Tankie's article was nothing more than a media trial. What more to expect from a tabloid. I've seen lots of this crap on TV here.


If anything India is more lenient towards these a**holes. UK and India seem to be on the same page when not taking these guy seriously and underestimating the influence of these guys in turning young muslim boys into hardcore fanatics.
Show me where India is more lenient. Owaisi has been charged, if he did not post bail he'd still be locked up. I think he will walk because i could not find anything explicit in his statement unless you want to show me otherwise. I believe Owaisi would not be shooting his mouth off unless he knows he can get away with it. His other carefully crafted statements are proof of this.

Well, UK as far as we've seen is actually allowing Anjem on the media circuit. Am not saying he should be getting promoted. Just that he not be charged until they have a solid case against him. Anjem from what we've seen is a shrewd operator. He's a guest of the state now. We'll be hearing more about this characters exploits in the future.