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Tronic
24 Apr 13,, 23:18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eivQxGF-JU


A video entitled "Little Commandos" which shows children as young as five training with heavy firearms at a terrorist training camp in a remote tribal area of Pakistan has surfaced online.

The Telegraph reports that a group called the Turkistan Islamic Party based in the "lawless" Waziristan region on the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan claims responsibility for the video. According to RT, the relatively unknown group, which runs camps for militants who carry out attacks in Afghanistan, is believed to have carried out several terrorist operations in the last 20 years.


Read more: Video: 'Little Commandos' undergo arms training in Taliban camp (http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/348725#ixzz2RPxJxNg7)

I'm sure the Chinese are watching this one closely.

Red Team
25 Apr 13,, 00:40
Every day the world seems to lose more and more faith in Pakistan's supposed dedication to fighting terrorism :pari:

doppelganger
25 Apr 13,, 03:41
How sweet. All kiddie terrorists in one village.

YellowFever
25 Apr 13,, 04:52
So here's a moral dilemma question for the good members of WAB....

If it was up to you, would you drop a bomb right in the middle of this camp?

Me, I don't know what the heck I'd do....

Officer of Engineers
25 Apr 13,, 05:04
Depends. If there's a high value target, then these kids ain't going to stop me ... but just a camp with them shooting? It ain't worth a bomb.

gf0012-aust
25 Apr 13,, 05:49
I'm sure the Chinese are watching this one closely.

esp on any relatoinships between TIP and the Uyghurs

lemontree
25 Apr 13,, 06:57
Very cute...video.

Tronic
25 Apr 13,, 06:59
esp on any relatoinships between TIP and the Uyghurs

TIP knows on which side their bread is buttered.

doppelganger
25 Apr 13,, 07:25
So here's a moral dilemma question for the good members of WAB....

If it was up to you, would you drop a bomb right in the middle of this camp?

Me, I don't know what the heck I'd do....

Would be the same moral dilemma as coming up on a nest of baby snakes and wondering which one is going to grow up and bite me or my loved ones, family, or friends, or whether it would be easier, less painful, and more efficient to stamp them out right now, and then wait patiently for the mama and papa to come around for retribution.

doppelganger
25 Apr 13,, 08:30
I recall Antimony saying something about "spray and pray" wrt automatic weapons on full auto. With 3 round burst being more accurate, but only marginally.

But these kids were handling the AKs pretty fine, some 3-round bursts also, so I'm not sure there is that much of a recoil, if 8-10 year olds are able to carry and fire these.

If anything, it was the handguns that were looking like they were having a bigger kick.

hammer
25 Apr 13,, 15:10
That is just sad.

Bigfella
25 Apr 13,, 15:40
TIP knows on which side their bread is buttered.

Surely you aren't underestimating the ability of Pakistan to 'bite the hand that feeds'.

Minskaya
25 Apr 13,, 16:04
Extremism isn't pretty. Hamas does the same with children.

DPrime
25 Apr 13,, 20:48
So here's a moral dilemma question for the good members of WAB....

If it was up to you, would you drop a bomb right in the middle of this camp?

Me, I don't know what the heck I'd do....

Absolutely not. This is child abuse. There's a chance to save them.

The teachers though...

antimony
26 Apr 13,, 03:23
I recall Antimony saying something about "spray and pray" wrt automatic weapons on full auto. With 3 round burst being more accurate, but only marginally.

But these kids were handling the AKs pretty fine, some 3-round bursts also, so I'm not sure there is that much of a recoil, if 8-10 year olds are able to carry and fire these.

If anything, it was the handguns that were looking like they were having a bigger kick.

While the reasons they are training are disgusting, the kids are not doing too bad in handling the guns. Having said that, I don't see any "spray and pray", seems like controlled shots to me.

By the way, high caliber handguns are difficult too control. I am not sure what these kids are handling though, everything seems huge in their hands,

1980s
02 May 13,, 00:03
Every day the world seems to lose more and more faith in Pakistan's supposed dedication to fighting terrorism :pari:

They've never been dedicated to fighting terrorism. Rather, they forment it, use it, manipulate it, and selectively target it.

A similar Pakistani terrorism camp for training children came to light a few months ago (see attached photos). The camps are believed to belong to either the LeJ or SSP terrorist groups, which have attempted to recruit ethnic Baluchis from Iran to train and carry out suicide bombings and ambushes against Iranian security forces and Shi'a mosques in south eastern Iran. The group claiming ownership of these child 'jihadis' refers to itself as Harakat Ansar Iran, altho this group has been dismissed as a front for Pakistani terrorist groups the LeJ and SSP, which are currently waging a war against the Hazara Shi'a community of Quetta, Balochistan (Pakistan) too.

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Agnostic Muslim
02 May 13,, 02:22
The group claiming ownership of these child 'jihadis' refers to itself as Harakat Ansar Iran, altho this group has been dismissed as a front for Pakistani terrorist groups the LeJ and SSP ...
Could you point to where the HAI has been established as a 'front for the LeJ and SSP'?

omon
02 May 13,, 03:00
seems like they have TT for a handgun.

1980s
02 May 13,, 13:01
Could you point to where the HAI has been established as a 'front for the LeJ and SSP'?

I dont know if it has been established or not, i said they have been dismissed as a front for the SSP/LeJ (by the Iranians) ie, Iranians dont acknowledge the HAI. The details of why that is, they havent made public (to my knowledge). Altho HAI itself admitted its relationship to the SSP in a statement released at the end of last year on their now suspended English blog (http://ansariran.blog.com/). The SSP also recently released a magazine called Al-Rashideen (Alrashideen - Home (http://alrashideen.weebly.com/)) with its focus on calling for 'jihad' against Iran and Shi'as. You'll note that the rhetoric, images, style and so on used by the SSP in their magazine and HAI on its social media (https://twitter.com/AnsarIran_eng) are identical.

Agnostic Muslim
02 May 13,, 13:41
I dont know if it has been established or not, i said they have been dismissed as a front for the SSP/LeJ (by the Iranians) ie, Iranians dont acknowledge the HAI. The details of why that is, they havent made public (to my knowledge). Altho HAI itself admitted its relationship to the SSP in a statement released at the end of last year on their now suspended English blog (http://ansariran.blog.com/). The SSP also recently released a magazine called Al-Rashideen (Alrashideen - Home (http://alrashideen.weebly.com/)) with its focus on calling for 'jihad' against Iran and Shi'as. You'll note that the rhetoric, images, style and so on used by the SSP in their magazine and HAI on its social media (https://twitter.com/AnsarIran_eng) are identical.
While the SSP/LeJ receive a degree of patronage from certain political parties such as the PMLN in Pakistan, many commentators in Pakistan argue that they derive their resources and influence from Saudi/Gulf Arab States.
The Iranians also state that Jundullah and various other organizations receive funding from the US/UK to carry out terrorist attacks and foment sectarian tensions:


Jundullah leader Abdulmalik Rigi received $100,000 from US operatives to fuel sectarianism in Iran in just one of their meetings, his brother has said. "My brother Abdulmalik met several times with US forces in Pakistan," Abdulhamid Rigi told a group of tribal leaders and citizens in the town of Iranshahr in the southeastern province of Sistan and Baluchistan. "I myself took part in one of those meetings, where we discussed recruitment, training, infiltrating Iran and methods of inflaming Sunni-Shia sectarianism for three hours. In that meeting, the Americans gave my brother $100,000," he added. Abdulhamid also said that during the meeting in question, his brother had asked for computer and satellite equipment, which he used to recruit young Sunni Baluchies. According to Jundullah's former number two, young men were attracted to the group because it sought to portray itself as an Islamic and Jihadist movement. He said that the group promoted the idea that killing two people from the Shia community would ensure entry to Paradise as they are infidels. Abdulhamid said that he had shot his wife dead in the Pakistani city of Quetta while she was asleep, because his brother had said she must die for being a Shia and a government spy. He added that Abdulmalik too had previously killed his own wife by slitting her throat for the same reason. Abdulhamid Rigi had earlier confirmed that the ring leader had repeatedly met with US agents in the Pakistani cities of Islamabad and Karachi since 2005. "In Pakistan, Malik [Abdulmalik Rigi] contacted an individual who resided in the US, who then put him through to the FBI," he said in a recent interview with Press TV. Jundullah (meaning 'God's Army') is a Pakistan-based terrorist group closely affiliated with the notorious al-Qaeda organization and is made up of disgruntled members of Iran's Sunni Baluch community. A 2007 Sunday Telegraph report revealed that the CIA had created Jundullah to achieve 'regime change in Iran'. The report said it was the very same US intelligence outfit that had tried to destabilize Iran by 'supplying arms-length support' and 'money and weapons' to Jundullah. Another report posted by ABC also revealed that the US officials had ordered Jundullah to 'stage deadly guerrilla raids inside the Islamic Republic, kidnap Iranian officials and execute them on camera', all as part of a 'programmatic objective to overthrow the Iranian government'. Jundullah has carried out a number of bombings and other violent attacks in Iran resulting in many casualties. Some of the attacks for which it has claimed responsibility are the killings of at least 16 Iranian police officers in a 2008 attack, nine Iranian security guards in 2005, and another 11 in a 2007 bombing. The group's leader Abdulmalik Rigi has also publicly claimed responsibility for a bombing in May at a Shia mosque in the southeastern city of Zahedan, which left 25 worshipers dead and scores injured. Soon after the attack, Abdulmalik Rigi admitted during an interview with a US-based satellite TV station that his group collaborated with another anti-Iranian terrorist group, the Mojahedin Khalq Organization (MKO). "They (MKO) inform us about the regime's activities in our areas of operations and let us know of the regime's forces in these districts and send us most of the intelligence of our interest by email and messages," Rigi told the station. MKO is listed as a terrorist organization by the US, Iran, and Iraq. Nevertheless, the US government has still not classified Jundullah as a proscribed terrorist organization

20090709 Brother of Terrorist - US Support Jundullah Terrorist Group - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1Aa_XEwNwI)

1980s
02 May 13,, 15:18
While the SSP/LeJ receive a degree of patronage from certain political parties such as the PMLN in Pakistan, many commentators in Pakistan argue that they derive their resources and influence from Saudi/Gulf Arab States.
The Iranians also state that Jundullah and various other organizations receive funding from the US/UK to carry out terrorist attacks and foment sectarian tensions:



20090709 Brother of Terrorist - US Support Jundullah Terrorist Group - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1Aa_XEwNwI)

Based on the style and how HAI presents its media and imagery, id say it clearly is influenced by Arabs from Persian Gulf states, if not actually receiving some support from there too.

As for Jundollah, its finished. Ascribing terrorism or sabotage to British, Zionist or American conspiracies is routine in Iran and nobody there buys into it. Press TV features/documentaries also have little or no credibility left, especially after the Maziar Bahari affair (you can look it up). Forced confessions and statements under duress are a regular, normal occurrence in Iran since the revolution and Press TV is complicit in high profile ones (Bahari, Ashtiani, Rigi, Panahi (Neda case) etc etc). What you need to look at are the actual commentaries and statements made by Iranian officials in parliament or to the media, and when it comes to Jondollah, starting from around 2007 Pakistan was frequently berated by senior clerical, military and political officials in Iran alongside the usual, ritual US/UK bashing. About 3 years ago i actually compiled a list of Iranian officials who had publicly berated Pakistan over international terrorism and the Jondallah issue which i share below:

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (Iranian President)
Major General Mohammad Ali Jafari (Commander, IRGC)
Brigadier General Hossein Salami (Deputy Commander, IRGC)
Brigadier General Esmaeil Ahmadi Moqaddam (Commander, National Police)
Brigadier General Ahmad Reza Radan (Deputy Commander, National Police)
Mostafa Mohammad Najjar (Interior Minister)
Mostafa Pour-Mohammadi (former Interior Minister)
Heidar Moslehi (Intelligence Minister)
Gholam-Hossein Mohseni Ejei (former Intelligence Minister)
Ahmad Khatami (Member, Assembly of Experts)
Ayatollah Qorban-Ali Dorri-Najafabadi (Prosecutor General)
Alaeddin Boroujerdi (Majles member & Chairman, National Security and Foreign Policy Commission)
Heshmatollah Falahat-Pishe (Majles member & member, National Security and Foreign Policy Commission)
Mohammad Karami Rad (Majles member & member, National Security and Foreign Policy Commission)
Abbas Ali Noura (Majles member, Sistan va Baluchestan)
Payman Forouzesh (Majles member, Sistan va Baluchestan)
Hossein-Ali Shahryari (Majles member, Sistan va Baluchetsan)

The above list is about 3 and half years old, some of the positions/offices of the above have since changed and more names could be added.

USSWisconsin
02 May 13,, 15:36
IMO, The use of children in this way is vile and beneath contempt. It is very difficult to fathom the minds of monster parents would be a party to such pernicious abuse and waste of their children's lives. Instilling an appetite for murder of innocents in innocent children. In the US, it might be compared to parents encouraging their children to join criminal street gangs - though I have never heard of that actually happening. The image of that small child with the big shotgun is particular disturbing, what a short and sad future that child seems to have (as they all do). I have seen other disgusting pictures too, including a toddler in a suicide vest. Perhaps someone who understands this mindset could explain it to me?

doppelganger
02 May 13,, 15:46
I have seen other disgusting pictures too, including a toddler in a suicide vest.

Have you seen kids with bombs planted surgically inside their abdomen?

In a basement. With crude anesthesia.

1980s
02 May 13,, 15:59
IMO, The use of children in this way is vile and beneath contempt. It is very difficult to fathom the minds of monster parents would be a party to such pernicious abuse and waste of their children's lives. Instilling an appetite for murder of innocents in innocent children. In the US, it might be compared to parents encouraging their children to join criminal street gangs - though I have never heard of that actually happening. The image of that small child with the big shotgun is particular disturbing, what a short and sad future that child seems to have (as they all do). I have seen other disgusting pictures too, including a toddler in a suicide vest. Perhaps someone who understands this mindset could explain it to me?

Id say what is taking place in Pakistan today is worse in many ways than what happened (and still is) in certain parts of Africa in relation to children being abused like this. Children being paraded around by various terrorist groups as 'soldiers' from FATA all the way down to Balochistan seems yet another indication that the Pakistani state does not exist in these places in reality, only on paper. The UNSC and UN GA should actually start addressing this issue of terrorist training camps for children in Pakistan because the video and photos suggest that this is a trend that is increasing over there with impunity.

Agnostic Muslim
02 May 13,, 16:27
The UNSC and UN GA should actually start addressing this issue of terrorist training camps for children in Pakistan because the video and photos suggest that this is a trend that is increasing over there with impunity.
How exactly do you expect the UNSC and UNGA to address this issue? The root of the problem lies with ineffective and weak government institutions, and there is nothing the UNSC and UNGA can do to address those weaknesses.

Agnostic Muslim
02 May 13,, 16:29
About 3 years ago i actually compiled a list of Iranian officials who had publicly berated Pakistan over international terrorism and the Jondallah issue which i share below:


And what about the ones claiming the US/UK are behind the terrorism and sectarian violence/hatred promoting groups as mentioned in the link earlier?

1980s
02 May 13,, 17:35
How exactly do you expect the UNSC and UNGA to address this issue? The root of the problem lies with ineffective and weak government institutions, and there is nothing the UNSC and UNGA can do to address those weaknesses.

By address it, i mean the issue should be raised and discussed. If the Pakistani state does not uphold its sovereign responsibilities and its international obligations, then its claim to sovereignty over these places should be questioned. The evidence of international terror camps for children (ostensibly targetted towards China and Iran) from FATA all the way to Balochistan is a very, very disturbing.


And what about the ones claiming the US/UK are behind the terrorism and sectarian violence/hatred promoting groups as mentioned in the link earlier?

Nobody takes that seriously. There is a long-running Iranian satire about blaming the British for everything summed up in the Persian novel My Uncle Napolean. Altho the book was written in the 70s, it is a wonderful parody of Anglophobia that is still somewhat relevant to the character of the Iranian state of today. UK/US bashing by Iran is expected, and is actually something both staged and ritualized to the point of absurdity (where the novel still has relevance despite its pre-revolutionary origins). OTHO, Iran has nothing to do with Pakistan and Pakistan plays no role in the history or imagination of Iranians. Therefore, there is no propaganda gain for Iran to publicly turn sour on Pakistan. The fact that so many officials did so is indicative of the fact that back-channel and private contacts with the Pakistanis produced no results, as such, Iranian officials from all branches of the state started to air their displeasure and anger with Pakistan over Jondallah publicly.

Agnostic Muslim
02 May 13,, 18:20
By address it, i mean the issue should be raised and discussed. If the Pakistani state does not uphold its sovereign responsibilities and its international obligations, then its claim to sovereignty over these places should be questioned. The evidence of international terror camps for children (ostensibly targetted towards China and Iran) from FATA all the way to Balochistan is a very, very disturbing.
A corrupt political elite is not going to be bothered by 'questions over Pakistani sovereignty'. The lack of security and government authority in these regions certainly is disturbing, but the instability is caused by multiple entities with multiple sponsors - the Baloch terrorist groups such as the BLA receive support from Afghanistan and the West, the Sunni sectarian extremist groups receive support from the Saudi's/Gulf Arabs and parts of the political leadership in Pakistan. The lack of government authority in many of the affected areas therefore cannot be addressed solely through 'questioning Pakistan's claim to sovereignty over these areas'.


Nobody takes that seriously. There is a long-running Iranian satire about blaming the British for everything summed up in the Persian novel My Uncle Napolean. Altho the book was written in the 70s, it is a wonderful parody of Anglophobia that is still somewhat relevant to the character of the Iranian state of today. UK/US bashing by Iran is expected, and is actually something both staged and ritualized to the point of absurdity (where the novel still has relevance despite its pre-revolutionary origins). OTHO, Iran has nothing to do with Pakistan and Pakistan plays no role in the history or imagination of Iranians. Therefore, there is no propaganda gain for Iran to publicly turn sour on Pakistan. The fact that so many officials did so is indicative of the fact that back-channel and private contacts with the Pakistanis produced no results, as such, Iranian officials from all branches of the state started to air their displeasure and anger with Pakistan over Jondallah publicly.
You are essentially suggesting that we 'cherry-pick' statements from Iranian officials assigning blame for terrorist attacks in Iran - you listed a number of Iranian officials blaming Pakistan, a quick google search will pull up a number of Iranian officials blaming the US for supporting terrorism:


The top officer in the Iranian Revolutionary Guard is quoted by Ha’aretz as saying that the “United States, Zionists and some European countries are directly linked with the Zahedan blasts, because [Rigi, leader of the Jundullah] had confessed that the U.S. wants bomb attacks to be carried out across Iran”:

The chief of the Revolutionary Guards’ Political Bureau Yadollah Javani to Fars that that confessions extracted by Rigi prior to execution last month showed the rebel group had received U.S. support for its fight against the regime in Tehran.

“Rigi’s confessions prove that the United States, Zionists and some European countries are directly linked with the Zahedan blasts, because he had confessed that the U.S. wants bomb attacks to be carried out across Iran,” Javani told Fars.

According to the Revolutionary Guards top officer, Iran’s enemies sought to divide “Shi’ite and Sunni Muslims in order to create chaos in the country,” adding that “one could not doubt the involvement of secret foreign services in the efforts to generate tension amongst Muslims.”

Javani’s claims came as Hezbollah condemned Friday the twin suicide bombings, saying they extended their “deepest condolences to the leader of the Islamic revolution and to the government and people of the Islamic republic as well as to the relatives of the victims.”

The statement also echoed Iranian claims that foreign intelligence services were behind the attack.

Similar statements were made by Alaeddin Borujerdi, chairman of Iran’s parliamentary commission on national security, who said that such “terror operations will not deter Iranian’s resolve in fighting against arrogant powers”. An Iranian parliamentarian, Heshmatollah Falahatpisheh, has also reportedly stated that Iran is “the main victim” of US-sponsored terrorism.

You even have American sources making similar claims:


As far back as 2008, Seymour Hersh reported that, according to former CIA officer Robert Baer, the Jundullah was receiving support from the U.S.:

One of the most active and violent anti-regime groups in Iran today is the Jundallah, also known as the Iranian People’s Resistance Movement, which describes itself as a resistance force fighting for the rights of Sunnis in Iran. “This is a vicious Salafi organization whose followers attended the same madrassas as the Taliban and Pakistani extremists,” Nasr told me. “They are suspected of having links to Al Qaeda and they are also thought to be tied to the drug culture.” The Jundallah took responsibility for the bombing of a busload of Revolutionary Guard soldiers in February, 2007. At least eleven Guard members were killed. According to Baer and to press reports, the Jundallah is among the groups in Iran that are benefitting from U.S. support.
Even Voice of America, the official media service of the U.S. government, admits that the group may be supported by the U.S. and Israel. However, the statement is prefaced by the claim that “Iranian officials have repeatedly accused” the U.S. and Israel of supporting the group.


The Mujahedin-e Khalq (MEK), or People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran, is an Iranian dissident group that has been formally designated for the last 15 years by the US State Department as a "foreign terrorist organization". When the Bush administration sought to justify its attack on Iraq in 2003 by accusing Saddam Hussein of being a sponsor of "international terrorism", one of its prime examples was Iraq's "sheltering" of the MEK. Its inclusion on the terrorist list has meant that it is a felony to provide any "material support" to that group.

Nonetheless, a large group of prominent former US government officials from both political parties has spent the last several years receiving substantial sums of cash to give speeches to the MEK, and have then become vocal, relentless advocates for the group, specifically for removing them from the terrorist list. Last year, the Christian Science Monitor thoroughly described "these former high-ranking US officials - who represent the full political spectrum - [who] have been paid tens of thousands of dollars to speak in support of the MEK." They include Democrats Howard Dean, Ed Rendell, Wesley Clark, Bill Richardson, and Lee Hamilton, and Republicans Rudy Giuliani, Fran Townsend, Tom Ridge, Michael Mukasey, and Andrew Card. Other prominent voices outside government, such as Alan Dershowitz and Elie Wiesel, have been enlisted to the cause and are steadfast MEK advocates.

....
Five lessons from the de-listing of MEK as a terrorist group | Glenn Greenwald | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/23/iran-usa)

U.S. Government Embraces the Same Iranian Terrorist Group that Bush Cited When He Alleged that Saddam Was Sponsoring “International Terrorism” | Washington's Blog (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/09/u-s-government-embraces-the-same-iranian-terrorists-that-bush-cited-to-allege-that-saddam-was-sponsoring-international-terrorism.html)

Blowback: In Aiding Iranian Terrorists, the U.S. Repeats a Dangerous Mistake - Max Fisher - The Atlantic (http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/04/blowback-in-aiding-iranian-terrorists-the-us-repeats-a-dangerous-mistake/255563/)

1980s
02 May 13,, 19:17
A corrupt political elite is not going to be bothered by 'questions over Pakistani sovereignty'. The lack of security and government authority in these regions certainly is disturbing, but the instability is caused by multiple entities with multiple sponsors - the Baloch terrorist groups such as the BLA receive support from Afghanistan and the West, the Sunni sectarian extremist groups receive support from the Saudi's/Gulf Arabs and parts of the political leadership in Pakistan. The lack of government authority in many of the affected areas therefore cannot be addressed solely through 'questioning Pakistan's claim to sovereignty over these areas'.

They should be bothered, because somewhere down the road the door to intervention in these areas, if not all out war, could very well be thrown open if transnational terrorism and criminality emanating out of Pakistan gets out of control. And seeing terrorism training camps for children warrants immediate international attention.


You are essentially suggesting that we 'cherry-pick' statements from Iranian officials assigning blame for terrorist attacks in Iran - you listed a number of Iranian officials blaming Pakistan, a quick google search will pull up a number of Iranian officials blaming the US for supporting terrorism:

The MEK issue is separate, and has nothing to do with Islamist causes. It is doubtful that Iranian collaborators and saboteurs that have targeted Iran's nuclear program and scientists are affiliated with the MEK, tho there is little doubt that whoever these people are have done so with Israeli and/or US backing. Regarding Jundollah, my reply to you is the same as i have already given. Nobody takes the claim that Jundollah was CIA backed seriously. You of course, can do so if you wish. But it no longer matters, that network doesnt exist anymore.

Agnostic Muslim
02 May 13,, 21:10
They should be bothered, because somewhere down the road the door to intervention in these areas, if not all out war, could very well be thrown open if transnational terrorism and criminality emanating out of Pakistan gets out of control. And seeing terrorism training camps for children warrants immediate international attention.

My point is that, as with the corrupt Afghan political leadership, the corrupt Pakistani political elite has built up off-shore accounts and real-estate holdings in Europe and Middle East to the point where an 'international intervention' is not going to cause them too many sleepless nights. If they really cared about improving the lot of their people, they would have acted when Pakistanis were suffering and dying from poverty, disease and terrorism. I don't see a threat of 'intervention' bringing them to their senses.


The MEK issue is separate, and has nothing to do with Islamist causes. It is doubtful that Iranian collaborators and saboteurs that have targeted Iran's nuclear program and scientists are affiliated with the MEK, tho there is little doubt that whoever these people are have done so with Israeli and/or US backing. Regarding Jundollah, my reply to you is the same as i have already given. Nobody takes the claim that Jundollah was CIA backed seriously. You of course, can do so if you wish. But it no longer matters, that network doesnt exist anymore.
So not only are you 'cherry-picking' which statements from Iranian officials blaming other nations for terrorism you consider 'legitimate and serious', you are trying to distinguish between terrorist organizations based on whether or not they perpetrate terrorism for religious or political goals ...

1980s
02 May 13,, 21:34
So not only are you 'cherry-picking' which statements from Iranian officials blaming other nations for terrorism you consider 'legitimate and serious', you are trying to distinguish between terrorist organizations based on whether or not they perpetrate terrorism for religious or political goals ...

I have no idea what you're talking about, and zero interest in repeating myself. See my earlier reply, thats my last word on it. Take it or leave it, it doesnt matter to me.

Agnostic Muslim
03 May 13,, 13:12
I have no idea what you're talking about, and zero interest in repeating myself. See my earlier reply, thats my last word on it. Take it or leave it, it doesnt matter to me.
It is quite simple really - you are insisting that statements by Iranian officials blaming Pakistan for supporting terrorist groups attacking Iran be considered legitimate and valid, and at the same time insisting that other statements by Iranian officials and accounts of American support for terrorist groups not be taken seriously. You are therefore cherry-picking to bash Pakistan while trying to exonerate the US from allegations of supporting terrorism in Iran.

1980s
03 May 13,, 14:57
It is quite simple really - you are insisting that statements by Iranian officials blaming Pakistan for supporting terrorist groups attacking Iran be considered legitimate and valid, and at the same time insisting that other statements by Iranian officials and accounts of American support for terrorist groups not be taken seriously. You are therefore cherry-picking to bash Pakistan while trying to exonerate the US from allegations of supporting terrorism in Iran.

1) I already told you that you can believe whatever you want to about the Jundollah issue. It makes no difference to me what you think.

2) Yes people took the regime's denouncements against Pakistan more seriously because actual counter-terrorism measures by the Iranian state to squash Jundollah were practically all aimed at Pakistan. Such measures included the frequent closure of the border crossing at mirjaveh (in Sistan o Baluchestan), increased police operations against Pakistanis found entering or living illegally in Iran and their expulsion (there have been reports of Pakistanis being shot at, even killed by Iranian forces), the construction of ditches, barbed wire fences and a 10ft high concrete wall along the border with Pakistan, placing overall security in Sistan o Baluchestan province into the hands of the IRGC, frequent IRGC military drills and war games in that province, Iranian police incursions into Pakistani Balochistan (one was even intercepted by Pakistan's FC), occasional reports in the media (usually Pakistani) that Iranian forces would fire rockets into Pakistani territory, the dispatching of Iran's Interior Minister and other officials to Pakistan after various terrorist attacks.

These are some of the measures and reactions that Iran took that come to the top of my head. It wasnt just public denouncements from Iranian officials.

gf0012-aust
04 May 13,, 04:35
This is starting to go around in circles.

It's not going to continue to go around in circles

I'm not interested in threads turning into chest thumping and bumping, and I suspect that the other Mods aren't either

Move on or move out

Chogy
04 May 13,, 15:57
Would it be possible to use technology to locate these camps?

1) Plant camouflaged sensors with spacing of approx. 1 to 2 miles in appropriate areas, linked via UHF or higher freq's to satellites.

2) Sensors detect automatic weapons fire via acoustics; software crunches data, triangulates approximate sources of fire.

3) Using simple UAV's, helicopters, or ground units, recon the designated area.

4) Neutralize.

Doktor
04 May 13,, 16:28
Wanna bet the outcry from neutralizing a camp of cheerful children?

Chogy
04 May 13,, 18:43
Neutralize... to render ineffective.

Why did you automatically assume I'd want to pummel them with JDAMs? I'd recommend sending in angry parents, foster if necessary, with paddles for their rear ends.

Doktor
04 May 13,, 19:23
Because you put so many mil gadgets around it never ocured me what will follow would have been parents with clubs :)

Chogy
04 May 13,, 19:29
I'm a techno-geek. I think in weird ways, especially outside of the field where I do know a little... aviation.

They "mined" the Ho Chi Minh trail during the Vietnam war with sensors, and they also had ELINT aircraft airborne that could detect the spark from motor vehicle engines. Pretty high-tech for the era. I'm not sure it did all that much good, and I doubt my scenario here would work. Just fantasizing.

I think in terms of a suburban USA guy. When Joe Citizen hears automatic weapons fire, he'll call the police, who will investigate. In this case, we have little sensors do the work for us.

Double Edge
05 May 13,, 12:34
Don't know how effective these kids will be with real guns.

But if it was laser tag, watch out :eek:

They manage to squirrel away themselves into hidden positions and just take out everybody. Just could not see the little buggers.

It was embarassing to see their hit counts at the top of the table during the initial rounds.

We then decided to just elbow them a bit and THEN the scores started changing :biggrin:

omon
05 May 13,, 18:49
Don't know how effective these kids will be with real guns.

:
pretty effective, just ask any soviet that fought ussr- afghan war

1980s
23 Oct 13,, 04:12
Just came across these disturbing pictures that were uploaded online in early September. The children are claimed to be ethnic Baluchs from southeast Iran, and are being indoctrinated for terrorism by a jihadist group called Jaish-e Adel, which is the rebranded remnants of Jondallah - a group said to have collapsed in 2010. But not so, as they are still clearly around.

I had never heard of Jondallah (active between 2002/3 - 2010) using children. So this phenomenon seems to be following in line with the trend of child training camps belonging to an array of international terrorist groups seen elsewhere in Pakistan's ungoverned badlands along its borders with Afghanistan and Iran.

You'll see little kids with pistols and rifles in the first picture:

antimony
23 Oct 13,, 18:49
Just came across these disturbing pictures that were uploaded online in early September. The children are claimed to be ethnic Baluchs from southeast Iran, and are being indoctrinated for terrorism by a jihadist group called Jaish-e Adel, which is the rebranded remnants of Jondallah - a group said to have collapsed in 2010. But not so, as they are still clearly around.

I had never heard of Jondallah (active between 2002/3 - 2010) using children. So this phenomenon seems to be following in line with the trend of child training camps belonging to an array of international terrorist groups seen elsewhere in Pakistan's ungoverned badlands along its borders with Afghanistan and Iran.

You'll see little kids with pistols and rifles in the first picture:

Can't provide shoes for some of the younglings but sports a nice vest himself. Fucking bastard

zraver
24 Oct 13,, 01:12
Can't provide shoes for some of the younglings but sports a nice vest himself. Fucking bastard


Only one, probably a rural kid who eschews shoes by choice when the weather permits. Kid probably has soles 2-3" thick and wider than normal as well. have kids like that here in the American south, have watched them walk across hot asphalt, run across gravel and through brambles bare foot. The kids do not appear gaunt, just doomed. It makes sense for the instructors to drive them hard, but treat them well and provide for them. Love will motivate those kids to excell.... They are basically a mix of spartan and slave soldiers and will be incredibly effective if sent on missions.

Honestly, with those kids of pics, I would pummel them with JDAM's... Those kids would find easy access to too many soft targets otherwise.

1980s
26 Oct 13,, 18:15
In a weird coincidence this group (Jaish-al Adel) has just broke into the media with a big hit on Iranian border police.

BBC News - Iran hangs 16 rebels 'in reprisal for border deaths' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24682729)
Farsnews - Iran Upset about Pakistanís Lax Border Control (http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13920804001212)
Iran 'hangs 16' in reprisal for Pakistan border killings (http://news.yahoo.com/14-iran-guards-killed-clashes-pakistan-border-060832305.html)

1980s
15 Dec 14,, 17:40
BBC News - How the Taliban groom child suicide bombers (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-27250144)
By Dawood Azami
BBC World Service

On a cold winter's day, a stream of relatives, neighbours and well-wishers come to see 10-year-old Naqibullah at his uncle's mud house in Pakistan's Balochistan province. They are happy to see him alive.

Naqibullah had mysteriously disappeared from the madrassa in Balochistan where he had been studying.

There were five months of silence until one day a neighbour watching an Afghan TV station recognised Naqibullah in a police "line-up" of insurgents captured in the southern Afghan town of Kandahar.

"I ran and told Naqibullah's uncle that I just saw him on TV and that he had been arrested for trying to carry out a suicide attack in Kandahar," neighbour Abdul Ahad said.

Naqibullah's story is an unsettling insight into how the Taliban and other militants groom child suicide bombers.

Identify the vulnerable

Afghans have a proud warrior tradition, but suicide attacks were never a part of it. They emerged as a regular deadly reality of Afghan life in 2005 - a tactic adopted from Iraq's theatre or war.

And children have suffered disproportionately in the Afghan conflict, where government and international forces have been fighting the Taliban since it was toppled in 2001.

Children have long been deployed for insurgent activities such as blowing up IEDs (Improvised Explosive Devices), surveillance and information about the whereabouts and location of Afghan and Nato security forces and government officials.

Teenagers have been found dragging away wounded Taliban, collecting dropped weapons and even fighting. Afghan authorities say they have arrested up to 250 children over the past 10 years for such activities.

The disturbing regional twist is the increasing number of child suicide bombers. Children are recruited simply for being children.

The capacity of Afghan security forces has increased and adult suicide bombers find it increasingly difficult to hit their target. Children are seen as more "recruitable" - easily influenced to carry out an attack and rarely suspected by security forces.

Madrassas as recruiting grounds

Just like hundreds of thousands of other boys, Naqibullah's uncle - who cared for him since the death of his father - enrolled him into a religious school. Poor families in Pakistan and Afghanistan send their sons to such madrassas for free education and lodging.

Such madrassas are prime recruiting ground for Taliban groomers. Interviews with detained children reveal they are picked up from the streets as well and from low-income neighbourhoods.

In many cases, parents and guardians say they are totally unaware.

Girl recruits

There are extremely rare cases of girls being recruited.

One 10-year-old girl, Spozhmai, got international media attention when she was detained on 6 January 2014 in southern Helmand province. She said her brother tried to make her blow herself up at a police checkpoint.

In 2011, an eight-year-old girl was killed in central Uruzgan province when she carried remotely controlled explosives to a police checkpoint in a cloth bag.

Pakistan the training ground

More than 90% of juvenile would-be suicide bombers who have been arrested are "trained, lied to, and brainwashed or coerced in Pakistan", Afghan officials say.

But there is also evidence of training in Taliban-controlled parts of Afghanistan.

Last year, a father in Afghanistan's northern city of Kunduz handed over his teenage son to police.

"I did so because I feared [he] might have been radicalised when he disappeared for a few months," said the 50-year old man. His family had returned from Pakistan a year earlier.

Some have successfully carried out suicide attacks in Pakistan. One 12-year-old boy wearing a school uniform blew himself up killing around 30 in the town of Mardan in February 2011.

Promise of brighter future

Naqibullah says his handlers told him he would go to heaven and all his problems will end. Officials say children are offered a path out the boredom and drudgery of poverty by preachers with promises.

"They offer them visions of paradise, where rivers of milk and honey flowed, in exchange for giving up his life by becoming a suicide bomber," one official said.

Although confessions obtained from juveniles can sometimes be unreliable, they provide chilling accounts of how they were persuaded.


They are told that Afghan girls and women are raped by "invading foreign forces" and that the Koran is being burned by Americans
The children are told that it is their religious duty to resist the "infidel" coalition forces and that they and their parents will go to paradise
They are told that the Afghans they intend to kill "deserve to die" because "they are not true Muslims", or are "American collaborators"
Nevertheless, children are rarely told who their specific target is and why they deserve to die.
In some cases, they are simply lied to. Some were given an amulet containing Koranic verses and told it would help them survive. Some handlers gave children keys to hang round their necks and were told the gates of paradise will open for them


Taliban denials

There are of course international laws against the use of children in conflict.

According to the Article 1 of the 1989 Convention on the Rights of the Child, everyone under 18 is a child. Afghan law also forbids the recruitment of minors into armed forces or the police.

Taliban spokesmen usually deny using children, especially girls. Indeed all the three Laihas [Codes of Conduct and Regulations] issued after the fall of the Taliban regime in late 2001 prohibit youths with no beard to join their ranks.

But one Taliban official acknowledged that there may be violations by local commanders acting alone. For many the exact age is not important. Anyone beyond puberty and mentally sound is considered fit for fighting.

Rehabilitating children

According to Afghan security officials, more than 30 children accused of having links with the insurgency are still held at detention facilities.

Rehabilitation is complicated with scant resources. While some children go through rehabilitation steadily enough, according to one insider, a few even regret failing to carry out suicide missions.

Naqibullah describes what happened to him: "They kept me in the other madrassa for a few months. Then other men came and took me to Kandahar.

"One day they took me in a car, gave me a heavy vest to wear and pointed to [some] soldiers."

But the police stopped him before he exploded his vest and his handlers who were looking on from a distance left in the car.

To secure his release his uncle contacted local tribal elders, religious scholars and lobbied Afghan officials.

Back at his home the boy tells every well-wisher how happy he is to have returned.