PDA

View Full Version : War on the Korean Peninsula: Present-day



Pages : [1] 2

Red Team
14 Mar 13,, 05:21
The news today is filled with all sorts of tantrums from our premier Communist rogue state upstart. Scrapping the armistice, cutting ties from South Korea, belligerent if not empty threats of pre-emptive nuclear strikes...war on the Korean Peninsula may still be fairly unlikely, but with a new, more potentially aggressive South Korean administration it has gotten ever closer than it has in recent years.

Assume the following scenario:

-US has two carrier battle groups deployed in the East China Sea plus an MEU on standby
-US Army BCTs are on standby on bases in Japan/Marines on Okinawa on standby
-Current US and South Korean forces on the mainland are on full alert and expect attack
-NATO nations and resources available
-China's 38th and 39th armies are at full combat readiness at the Northern Border of NK
-nearest NORK forces to the border are fully deployed and make the first move inward
-NORK Special Forces are on standby to infiltrate the country covertly
-No initial WMD usage but may be used as war progresses
-Everything else not mentioned assume status-quo

Bigfella
14 Mar 13,, 06:26
The DPRK ceases to exist in any recognizable form & a whole lot of Koreans die. The only question is whether or not the end comes at the hands of the RoK or the Chinese. There is a fair chance that as soon as things kick off Beijing rushes troops to 'aid' its 'ally' and promptly installs a friendly government that ends the war and the Kim-related foolishness. The US & RoK make a bunch of noise but quietly pop champagne because someone else is left holding the tar baby for another generation.

Parihaka
14 Mar 13,, 06:35
It only really remains as to how the Chinese explain Kim Jong Un's untimely demise so as to blame the west but not so much as anyone would want to make something of it. Fallen leading his men into battle perhaps?

Bigfella
14 Mar 13,, 07:02
It only really remains as to how the Chinese explain Kim Jong Un's untimely demise so as to blame the west but not so much as anyone would want to make something of it. Fallen leading his men into battle perhaps?

Not sure even Nth Koreans will buy an image of Kim leading troops into battle. Better to go with 'killed by evil capitalist running dog air raid', or, even better, 'killed by assasins from the puppet South Korean regime'

Of course, they could take option 'C' & recruit Yeller as a Kim lookalike. :biggrin:

Parihaka
14 Mar 13,, 07:16
Of course, they could take option 'C' & recruit Yeller as a Kim lookalike. :biggrin:
Hooray, we kill two birds with one stone!

Bigfella
14 Mar 13,, 07:31
Hooray, we kill two birds with one stone!

My thoughts exactly. Hope he likes undersized women.

Doktor
14 Mar 13,, 07:56
Imagine how worse K-Pop will get then.

Guess there are bad things in everything. Gunny wont be happy.

USSWisconsin
14 Mar 13,, 08:00
Not sure even Nth Koreans will buy an image of Kim leading troops into battle. Better to go with 'killed by evil capitalist running dog air raid', or, even better, 'killed by assasins from the puppet South Korean regime'

Of course, they could take option 'C' & recruit Yeller as a Kim lookalike. :biggrin:

Perhaps Kim jr would die in a boating mishap? While on the way to deliver another rifle to that island garrison, one of the keel planks on that overloaded wooden boat pops off and they realize the leader can't swim, as his heavy body armor drags him to the bottom.

YellowFever
14 Mar 13,, 08:17
Of course, they could take option 'C' & recruit Yeller as a Kim lookalike. :biggrin:

Every time I try to say something bad about Australia.....I can't bring myself to do it because you guys got hot chicks like this.....

32310

32311

YellowFever
14 Mar 13,, 08:19
Hooray, we kill two birds with one stone!

Every time I want to say something bad about NZ, I can't bring myself to do it...because you guys think this is a hot chick....

32312

YellowFever
14 Mar 13,, 08:25
Imagine how worse K-Pop will get then.


Guess there are bad things in everything. Gunny wont be happy.

Gunny will be happy if he manages to bring in all the beer from the car without dropping any...

Bigfella
14 Mar 13,, 08:53
At the risk of letting you in on a secret, they're just the ugly ones we let out of the country - we keep the best ones at home for ourselves. (and if BR or Pari tell you any different ignore them, they are bitter & jealous people:biggrin:).


Every time I try to say something bad about Australia.....I can't bring myself to do it because you guys got hot chicks like this.....

32310

32311

Parihaka
14 Mar 13,, 09:54
Yeah alright yellar, that made me laugh

Officer of Engineers
14 Mar 13,, 14:58
Won't come to that. As soon as Kim starts preparing for war with no stopping in sight, the Chinese stops all fuel and food shipments and the NORKs would turn on its own as a matter of survival. Families would be fighting for heating fuel rather than let it goto the tanks and planes.

It is VERY EASY to collapse NK without firing a single shot and everybody knows it.

Albany Rifles
14 Mar 13,, 15:15
I have two questions about the scenario as originally posited...

1. US BCTs on standby in Japan. What US BCTs? None are stationed there. What kind are you talking about....Stryker? Not likely to stage out of Japan. Of more import is have the afloat prepo ships from Guam and Diego Garcia made their way forward....that's where the heavy metal is.

2. Forces on full alert does not equate to fully mobilized. Do the ROKs call up their entire reserves and have them ready? Has the US moved Army assigned units into theater?

If 2 then its what the Colonel says....unless the regime is totally suicidal.

Red Team
14 Mar 13,, 15:26
I have two questions about the scenario as originally posited...

1. US BCTs on standby in Japan. What US BCTs? None are stationed there. What kind are you talking about....Stryker? Not likely to stage out of Japan. Of more import is have the afloat prepo ships from Guam and Diego Garcia made their way forward....that's where the heavy metal is.

2. Forces on full alert does not equate to fully mobilized. Do the ROKs call up their entire reserves and have them ready? Has the US moved Army assigned units into theater?

If 2 then its what the Colonel says....unless the regime is totally suicidal.

1. One Stryker and One Armored BCT stationed within deployable range, I was drawing a blank as to where they'd be deployed from so my first thoughts were from Japan. But on second thoughts someplace like Diego Garcia or Guam makes more sense.

2. Active USFK and SK forces stationed at or near the border are fully deployed but the SK reserves are still in the process of ramping up to full deployment (say 50% are combat-ready).

Off Topic: Who is that girl? :confu:

Stitch
14 Mar 13,, 18:36
Off Topic: Who is that girl? :confu:

You mean THIS one?


32312

Red Team
14 Mar 13,, 19:20
You mean THIS one?


32312

No, the less attractive one :biggrin:

Tanker
14 Mar 13,, 20:54
This is what you get when you feed women corn Australia :)




Every time I try to say something bad about Australia.....I can't bring myself to do it because you guys got hot chicks like this.....

32310

32311

Tanker
14 Mar 13,, 20:55
This is what you get when you feed women corn in New Zealand :)



Every time I want to say something bad about NZ, I can't bring myself to do it...because you guys think this is a hot chick....

32312

Tanker
14 Mar 13,, 20:56
Unfortunately, if you feed North Korean women corn you will need a mop :)

Mihais
14 Mar 13,, 20:58
If 2 then its what the Colonel says....unless the regime is totally suicidal.

They may be.Not by design,but by idiocy.The porky Kim is in his 20's.The generals that hold his hands look like they're going to the grave very soon.So Porky will be left with utter retards and sicophants.Porky,very likely,has no idea what's going on the world,nor in his own country.He looks like he lived in the ivory tower all his life.He also seems to enjoy it and I very much doubt he even scratched his hand in a tae-kwon-do training.A very dangerous mix for himself and his cronies.

Red Team
14 Mar 13,, 22:15
Assuming China cuts off fuel and food shipments to the NORKs upon a strike on South Korea, what's the estimate as to how long the NORKs would be able to conduct operations?

Blademaster
14 Mar 13,, 22:54
Won't come to that. As soon as Kim starts preparing for war with no stopping in sight, the Chinese stops all fuel and food shipments and the NORKs would turn on its own as a matter of survival. Families would be fighting for heating fuel rather than let it goto the tanks and planes.

It is VERY EASY to collapse NK without firing a single shot and everybody knows it.

Are there any stockpiling? I am more concerned about the NK's artillery barrages. It could inflict heavy damage on South Korean industries. Many of SK's industries are within 50 km of the DMZ. SK does not have to worry about refugees. After all the DMZ would take care of the refugees.

DPrime
15 Mar 13,, 01:26
Assuming China cuts off fuel and food shipments to the NORKs upon a strike on South Korea, what's the estimate as to how long the NORKs would be able to conduct operations?

Conventional?

Or can we assume the North Koreans have conducted some "lessons learned" sessions and are prepared for prolonged guerrilla combat?

All I know is don't underestimate the Koreans on either side. They are a tough people.

Officer of Engineers
15 Mar 13,, 01:35
Are there any stockpiling?You tell me.

http://molivam42.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/koreabynight.jpg


I am more concerned about the NK's artillery barrages. It could inflict heavy damage on South Korean industries. Many of SK's industries are within 50 km of the DMZ.Maybe at most a couple of days of shelling before their guns would be driven out of range or destroyed. As soon as the war starts, the artillery positions would be attacked and infantry assaults would begin immediately.

Yes. That's right. South Korean infantry assaults north.


SK does not have to worry about refugees. After all the DMZ would take care of the refugees.Unless the South is willing to machine gun refugees, the DMZ is not going to stop them. There are foot paths, all covered by machine gun nests, that South Korean troops use to patrol the DMZ.

Stitch
15 Mar 13,, 01:42
You tell me.

http://molivam42.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/koreabynight.jpg

Maybe at most a couple of days of shelling before their guns would be driven out of range or destroyed. As soon as the war starts, the artillery positions would be attacked and infantry assaults would begin immediately.

Yes. That's right. South Korean infantry assaults north.

Unless the South is willing to machine gun refugees, the DMZ is not going to stop them. There are foot paths, all covered by machine gun nests, that South Korean troops use to patrol the DMZ.

That night-time satellite photo says it all; tell me which country has the resources (and the backing of friendly nations) to sustain a war for more than a few days.

Red Team
15 Mar 13,, 02:55
Conventional?

Or can we assume the North Koreans have conducted some "lessons learned" sessions and are prepared for prolonged guerrilla combat?

All I know is don't underestimate the Koreans on either side. They are a tough people.

That was my main concern: the potential for a drawn out unconventional campaign. The NORKs are nothing if not extremely fanatic.

Officer of Engineers
15 Mar 13,, 03:18
That was my main concern: the potential for a drawn out unconventional campaign. The NORKs are nothing if not extremely fanatic.You're assuming complete devotion to Kim when in fact the North Korean army has been racked by mutinies and entire divisional staffs have been shot.

Red Team
15 Mar 13,, 03:45
You're assuming complete devotion to Kim when in fact the North Korean army has been racked by mutinies and entire divisional staffs have been shot.

That is a good point sir. Little Kim (and I use that term lightly) hasn't exactly been the figure of inspiration since he took power. But surely there'd be some form of opposition against North Korea being assimilated by the capitalist dogs of the South or becoming the newest province of the People's Republic?

Officer of Engineers
15 Mar 13,, 03:47
Sure. The Secret Police.

Blademaster
15 Mar 13,, 04:30
I don't understand South Korean thinking. Why can't they buy off the N. Koreans and convince them to surrender peacefully or encourage several elements in NK to initiate a coup de etat? If the Chinese can do it, why can't the SK?

DPrime
15 Mar 13,, 04:40
You're assuming complete devotion to Kim when in fact the North Korean army has been racked by mutinies and entire divisional staffs have been shot.

Do they need to be devoted to the new "dear leader", or just the system as a whole?

Certainly elements are not, but enough of the senior leadership and officer and NCO corps would be, I should think.

Officer of Engineers
15 Mar 13,, 04:54
I don't understand South Korean thinking. Why can't they buy off the N. Koreans and convince them to surrender peacefully or encourage several elements in NK to initiate a coup de etat? If the Chinese can do it, why can't the SK?Nobody, not the Chinese, not the South Koreans, and certainly not the Americans want to be saddled with 25 million beggars.


Do they need to be devoted to the new "dear leader", or just the system as a whole?It's a conscription system. Meaning that the soldiers are more loyal to their stomachs than to the system. One of the causes of mutiny was hunger.


Certainly elements are not, but enough of the senior leadership and officer and NCO corps would be, I should think.The Chinese think that they can be inside the North Korean capital within 2 weeks. That can only happen if they have several North Korean corps in their pockets.

DPrime
15 Mar 13,, 06:03
It's a conscription system. Meaning that the soldiers are more loyal to their stomachs than to the system. One of the causes of mutiny was hunger.

The Chinese think that they can be inside the North Korean capital within 2 weeks. That can only happen if they have several North Korean corps in their pockets.

I am very hesitant to oversimplify matters regarding the North Koreans is all I'm saying... :)

Officer of Engineers
15 Mar 13,, 06:23
I am very hesitant to oversimplify matters regarding the North Koreans is all I'm saying... :)Nothing about war is simple and unintended consequences abound left, right, and centre but we're not speaking about us. We're speaking about them, the NKs, and the simple fact is that they are not all that unified.

Mutinies and riots are testament to that.

astralis
15 Mar 13,, 13:16
The Chinese think that they can be inside the North Korean capital within 2 weeks. That can only happen if they have several North Korean corps in their pockets.

i wonder how long it'd take for the chinese to get to pyongyang even without making sure those corps look the other way.

Albany Rifles
15 Mar 13,, 16:27
They may be.Not by design,but by idiocy.The porky Kim is in his 20's.The generals that hold his hands look like they're going to the grave very soon.So Porky will be left with utter retards and sicophants.Porky,very likely,has no idea what's going on the world,nor in his own country.He looks like he lived in the ivory tower all his life.He also seems to enjoy it and I very much doubt he even scratched his hand in a tae-kwon-do training.A very dangerous mix for himself and his cronies.

Okay, suicide by stupidity then. Good points.

Albany Rifles
15 Mar 13,, 16:29
"...and entire divisional staffs have been shot."

Colonel, I recall when I was a company commander and battalion and brigade staff officer and thought this would be a great idea.

Then I became a division staff officer and it confirmed my thoughts.

And as you noted about the ROKs attacking northward....it was a little kept secret during the 1980s that an unwritten mission of the 2 ID and 8 US Army was to keep the South from going North.

Stitch
15 Mar 13,, 16:41
And as you noted about the ROKs attacking northward....it was a little kept secret during the 1980s that an unwritten mission of the 2 ID and 8 US Army was to keep the South from going North.

THAT would've been interesting; I wonder how far they thought they'd get without US assistance?

Red Team
15 Mar 13,, 16:47
I think this video is a good illustration of the North-South technological disparity.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYr-700uQUQ&list=FLVxSqt9zpchftQ3JIeFsNkw&index=1

Blademaster
15 Mar 13,, 17:01
Mutinies and riots are testament to that.

Haven't heard about them.

Officer of Engineers
15 Mar 13,, 17:20
Haven't heard about them.Google North Korea riots mutiny. Undoubtedly, some are exaggerations and complete lies by dissidents but the sheer volume of claims point to something more sinister. The Chinese reported gunfire in Pyongyang during the famines.

zraver
15 Mar 13,, 18:28
If Kim pops his cork...

He can destroy Seoul in short order, nothing any does can prevent that. However that is all he can do. Depending on what he uses to burn Seoul, his own capitol is going to get pasted. If he plays dirty the US may well glass the city. If he plays "nice" and sticks to conventional artillery the US will still hit Pyongyang but it will be targeted strikes by B-2's and missiles.

The Chinese are going to play a different game. First move is seal the border to prevent refugees. Then or maybe at the same time seize certain border towns and crossings for the same reason and to prepare jump off points. They wont jump in early to avoid the appearance of being a US ally in the destruction of Chinese a client state. They wont actually invade until the UN forces cross the DMZ driving on Pyongyang for the UN political victory. That is when the PLA will move in to play peace maker. China wants a deal that keeps norks in Korea and gets the US off the peninsula. I think they'd even be willing to massively underwrite the rebuilding effort to see such a unification come about. It gets the only US staging area on the Asian mainland off of Asia. Removes Washington's pull with the RoK via a vis Japan and strengthens RoK/PRC ties at the cost of the US.

The US will be happy to go as the cost savings will be substantial. However they wont go until the ceasefire line is secured to prevent a massive invasion of the RoK by refugees that would collapse the Korean economy.

It will take the RoK 10-20 to rebuild the north. Not sure if there will be tribunals, or if SK will follow South Africa and Rwandas' examples of sweeping it under the rug in the name of reconciliation.

Blademaster
15 Mar 13,, 18:31
Zraver,

plan on 30 years, not 20 years to completely rebuild NK and it would be on the order of several trillion dollars, let's say 4 trillion. SK has to get its economy past the $2T mark in order to get through the rebuilding on its own otherwise China would completely dominate NK.

Officer of Engineers
15 Mar 13,, 18:45
There is no way for the Chinese to seal the border with North Korea. There are two armies there already and smugglers and illegal immigration is still happening. The leakage can't be contained in that mountainous terrain. That is why the Chinese must attack if Kim pops the cork. It's the only way to keep North Koreans in North Korea.

Albany Rifles
15 Mar 13,, 18:48
THAT would've been interesting; I wonder how far they thought they'd get without US assistance?

If no one stepped in? The Yalu.

Doktor
15 Mar 13,, 18:56
Which year?

TopHatter
15 Mar 13,, 18:58
plan on 30 years, not 20 years to completely rebuild NK and it would be on the order of several trillion dollars, let's say 4 trillion.

It'll make rebuilding the DDR look like a trip to Disney World. :frown:

zraver
15 Mar 13,, 19:19
Zraver,

plan on 30 years, not 20 years to completely rebuild NK and it would be on the order of several trillion dollars, let's say 4 trillion. SK has to get its economy past the $2T mark in order to get through the rebuilding on its own otherwise China would completely dominate NK.

Disagree, RoK only needs to stabilize the north in terms of welfare and then normal market forces will do the rest allowing the Korean government to focus on infrastructure. China would rather pay someone else to do it. Occupying North Korea has zero advantages for the PRC.

zraver
15 Mar 13,, 19:39
There is no way for the Chinese to seal the border with North Korea. There are two armies there already and smugglers and illegal immigration is still happening. The leakage can't be contained in that mountainous terrain. That is why the Chinese must attack if Kim pops the cork. It's the only way to keep North Koreans in North Korea.

Sir the PLA isn't actually on the border sealing it off. If the PLA/PAP really try to seal the border against a mass exodus it would be sealed.

Mihais
15 Mar 13,, 19:44
If Kim pops his cork...

He can destroy Seoul in short order, nothing any does can prevent that.

I won't bet even on that.There are a few things,which go by the name counterbattery,attack helicopters,guided munitions,drones,IMINT and good old style recon(the sort when you just go there and take a long look at everything).Preventing the destruction of Seoul is likely priority no. 1 for the ROK,since the NORKs can't march South.Even if they try,the first thing that needs to be done is taking out their big guns.

DPrime
15 Mar 13,, 19:45
Nothing about war is simple and unintended consequences abound left, right, and centre but we're not speaking about us. We're speaking about them, the NKs, and the simple fact is that they are not all that unified.

Mutinies and riots are testament to that.

An indication, certainly - not sure if it's testament to anything.

Of course I see your point, sir, but I think putting ourselves into North Korean shoes, as it were (can they afford shoes?), is not going to result in accurate assessments. We just know so damn little about them... Motivation especially.

And as you said earlier, what we do know might just be propaganda from either side. I wonder if even South Koreans can "think" anything like a North Korean at this point.

I'm enjoying this thread very much though. I like the ideas popping up from everyone. Good brainstorm. :)

zraver
15 Mar 13,, 19:54
I won't bet even on that.There are a few things,which go by the name counterbattery,attack helicopters,guided munitions,drones,IMINT and good old style recon(the sort when you just go there and take a long look at everything).Preventing the destruction of Seoul is likely priority no. 1 for the ROK,since the NORKs can't march South.Even if they try,the first thing that needs to be done is taking out their big guns.

Do some research on HARTS. If the balloon goes up the priority missions for air and arty are going to be keeping the North Korean army from breaking through the DMZ and border areas. Taking out the HARTS would eat up most of the UN air and arty assets leaving little to support ground ops. These sites can not only hit the South Korean capitol with 122,130 and 152mm and MLRS fire but they give the Norks the ability to smother the DMZ area with up to 500 tubes per km.

Knocking out that threat is neither easy nor quick and is in reality the Norks biggest preventative against a UN invasion. They hold the RoK capitol, 10.5 million souls/seouleseans and the RoK economy hostage with those sites.

Mihais
15 Mar 13,, 20:03
We'll live and see ;)

Officer of Engineers
15 Mar 13,, 20:22
Sir the PLA isn't actually on the border sealing it off. If the PLA/PAP really try to seal the border against a mass exodus it would be sealed.Ok, the North Korean VI and VIII Corps can't stop the exodus.


Do some research on HARTS. If the balloon goes up the priority missions for air and arty are going to be keeping the North Korean army from breaking through the DMZ and border areas. Taking out the HARTS would eat up most of the UN air and arty assets leaving little to support ground ops. These sites can not only hit the South Korean capitol with 122,130 and 152mm and MLRS fire but they give the Norks the ability to smother the DMZ area with up to 500 tubes per km.As already stated, it would be the South Koreans marching north, not the North marching south.

Officer of Engineers
15 Mar 13,, 20:23
An indication, certainly - not sure if it's testament to anything.When was the last time we had a battalion level mutiny or have an entire division staff shot?

Blademaster
15 Mar 13,, 21:23
How many weeks of fuel does NK have to supply its mechanized divisions and artillery supply logistics?

zraver
15 Mar 13,, 21:31
Ok, the North Korean VI and VIII Corps can't stop the exodus.

As already stated, it would be the South Koreans marching north, not the North marching south.

That is how it will end up, but that is unlikely to be how it starts.

TopHatter
15 Mar 13,, 21:37
Disagree, RoK only needs to stabilize the north in terms of welfare and then normal market forces will do the rest allowing the Korean government to focus on infrastructure. China would rather pay someone else to do it. Occupying North Korea has zero advantages for the PRC.

Germany would probably disagree with that I'm sure

Officer of Engineers
15 Mar 13,, 21:38
Both North Korea and South Korea began military exercises this month. South Korea's was design to last 2 month. North Korea's lasted 2 days.

zraver
15 Mar 13,, 21:39
How many weeks of fuel does NK have to supply its mechanized divisions and artillery supply logistics?

Figure a minimum of 30 days in strategic reserves, but then almost nothing. North Korea has refinery capacity for 71,000 barrels of oil a day, imports 14,000 barrels a day (or did) and produces just under 130 barrels a day domestically. Plus they have a least some of their truck fleet converted to wood burning gassifiers. Gassified trucks not withstanding, if they lose access to imports they are screwed unless they have a secret synthetic fuels industry.

Officer of Engineers
15 Mar 13,, 21:39
That is how it will end up, but that is unlikely to be how it starts.I seriously doubt that. Any movement forward to jump off points will start off by the Chinese cutting off everything and the South will beat the North to the punch.

Doktor
15 Mar 13,, 22:13
Interesting discussion. So, it is not who will win, but when SK is financially ready to feed the NK.

Stitch
15 Mar 13,, 22:35
Interesting discussion. So, it is not who will win, but when SK is financially ready to feed the NK.

Along those lines, I think the example of the US invading Iraq back in 2003, but not having any "the day after the war stops" plans would be instructive; i.e.: don't invade another country unless you're planning on cleaning the mess up when you're done. I know "nation building" is NOT what the US Army is trained to do, but there should've been some sort of a "day after" plan to deal with what was left of Iraq after 2003.

zraver
16 Mar 13,, 00:04
I seriously doubt that. Any movement forward to jump off points will start off by the Chinese cutting off everything and the South will beat the North to the punch.

Sir, we have different reads on it. I am approaching it from a more Bismarkian realpolitik perspective focused on what i think are longer termed PRC goals. I say that if war comes China want's the RoK to win, but only after bleeding so much that promises of Chinese aid can buy US troops exiting the Asian mainland.

Officer of Engineers
16 Mar 13,, 00:13
Sir, we have different reads on it. I am approaching it from a more Bismarkian realpolitik perspective focused on what i think are longer termed PRC goals. I say that if war comes China want's the RoK to win, but only after bleeding so much that promises of Chinese aid can buy US troops exiting the Asian mainland.The main Chinese goal is to keep North Koreans out of China and the best way to do that is to keep Kim in power. He has the security apparatus to maintain enough order so that there is no mass exodus. However, if that apparatus is to collapse by Kim's own stupid bellicose and forced Seoul to destroy it, then, the only Chinese option is to invade and drive to the 38th, destroying everything that even stinks of Kim, and thus force the refugees south.

zraver
16 Mar 13,, 00:20
The main Chinese goal is to keep North Koreans out of China and the best way to do that is to keep Kim in power. He has the security apparatus to maintain enough order so that there is no mass exodus. However, if that apparatus is to collapse by Kim's own stupid bellicose and forced Seoul to destroy it, then, the only Chinese option is to invade and drive to the 38th, destroying everything that even stinks of Kim, and thus force the refugees south.

Hopefully we never find out.

Officer of Engineers
16 Mar 13,, 00:50
Hopefully we never find out.Baby Kim is really putting that hope to the test. Sooner or later, someone is going slap him for his temper tantrums.

TopHatter
16 Mar 13,, 01:37
As already stated, it would be the South Koreans marching north, not the North marching south.

Sir, wouldn't the NK border and the entire area around those HARTS be one giant shit-storm of area-denial weapons and equipment?
It would take forever and a day for the ROK's to reach them. In the meantime, Seoul is turned into that sea of fire that Kim and his gang are constantly promising.


Baby Kim is really putting that hope to the test. Sooner or later, someone is going slap him for his temper tantrums.

I agree. After the Cheonan sinking and the Yeonpyeong bombardment, the ROK's are hit back big time if the North decides to start shooting again.

Officer of Engineers
16 Mar 13,, 02:30
Sir, wouldn't the NK border and the entire area around those HARTS be one giant shit-storm of area-denial weapons and equipment?
It would take forever and a day for the ROK's to reach them. In the meantime, Seoul is turned into that sea of fire that Kim and his gang are constantly promising.You mean Engineers?

Blademaster
16 Mar 13,, 04:57
The main Chinese goal is to keep North Koreans out of China and the best way to do that is to keep Kim in power. He has the security apparatus to maintain enough order so that there is no mass exodus. However, if that apparatus is to collapse by Kim's own stupid bellicose and forced Seoul to destroy it, then, the only Chinese option is to invade and drive to the 38th, destroying everything that even stinks of Kim, and thus force the refugees south.

I am taking a long view on this. What is the birth rate of NKs? Is the population of NK shrinking? Perhaps that is the strategy of China. To make the population of NK wither to a few millions through famine, starvation, and whatnot so the expense of taking care of the NK population would be vastly smaller.

Are the statistics on Wiki page correct or flubbed and inflated?

Officer of Engineers
16 Mar 13,, 05:05
History would suggest otherwise. Populations always rebound after a big die off.

Blademaster
16 Mar 13,, 05:07
Figure a minimum of 30 days in strategic reserves, but then almost nothing. North Korea has refinery capacity for 71,000 barrels of oil a day, imports 14,000 barrels a day (or did) and produces just under 130 barrels a day domestically. Plus they have a least some of their truck fleet converted to wood burning gassifiers. Gassified trucks not withstanding, if they lose access to imports they are screwed unless they have a secret synthetic fuels industry.

That's it. There's absolutely no way that the NK can hold out against SKs for more than 2 weeks. It would be Dunkirk for NKs because in Dunkirk, the French were fighting until fuel ran out before German's fuel ran out.

I don't care how many soldiers or equipment NKs have, without fuel, those artillery equipment are just sitting ducks for counterfire.

How long would it take SK to pick off the 17,000 plus artillery guns that NKs have?

Officer of Engineers
16 Mar 13,, 05:12
How long would it take SK to pick off the 17,000 plus artillery guns that NKs have?As long as it took the South to breach the DMZ ... which is somewhat easier than going south. The whole thing is that the North has always geared to invade the south. Except for the FEBA, their rear is geared to move troops forward into the attack, not to impede an enemy advance. As such, roads that help troops move south can also help troops move north.

Once the South breached the DMZ, then it's another Pusan Breakout and those NORK gunners would be running for their lives.

Blademaster
16 Mar 13,, 05:27
As long as it took the South to breach the DMZ ... which is somewhat easier than going south. The whole thing is that the North has always geared to invade the south. Except for the FEBA, their rear is geared to move troops forward into the attack, not to impede an enemy advance. As such, roads that help troops move south can also help troops move north.

Once the South breached the DMZ, then it's another Pusan Breakout and those NORK gunners would be running for their lives.

When the fuel runs out, the gunners' only option would be to surrender because they cannot run fast enough to escape bloodthirsty SKs after lighting up Seoul or retreat into redoubts or caves and fight it out to the last man. How loaded are the SKs in thermobaric and bunk buster weapons?

Officer of Engineers
16 Mar 13,, 06:38
Really, really big molatovs.

doppelganger
16 Mar 13,, 07:23
Just looking around other than the Israeli chick thread and thought I'd try my hand at some serious matter as well.

I never understood this thing about North Korea and the world so thought I'd just risk sounding foolish and blurt it out here.

What IS the world's problem with North Korea?

I mean, with Pakistan I can understand. It is a rogue country fingering everyone, and is nuclear as well.

But North Korea is not a terrorist country. Sure they are nuclear and maybe not legally either. But who are they fingering? I don't think they export terror anywhere. I don't think they are militarily a serious threat to any of the big countries being discussed here (China, USA, Japan, South Korea). As the experts here agree, if they were ever to get too frisky, South Korea could finish them off, leave alone China.

So what is the real problem? That they are a communist country? I'm sure we have all moved on from the cold war era right?

So why not just leave them alone and let them sink or swim on their own?

Blademaster
16 Mar 13,, 07:26
Just looking around other than the Israeli chick thread and thought I'd try my hand at some serious matter as well.

I never understood this thing about North Korea and the world so thought I'd just risk sounding foolish and blurt it out here.

What IS the world's problem with North Korea?

I mean, with Pakistan I can understand. It is a rogue country fingering everyone, and is nuclear as well.

But North Korea is not a terrorist country. Sure they are nuclear and maybe not legally either. But who are they fingering? I don't think they export terror anywhere. I don't think they are militarily a serious threat to any of the big countries being discussed here (China, USA, Japan, South Korea). As the experts here agree, if they were ever to get too frisky, South Korea could finish them off, leave alone China.

So what is the real problem? That they are a communist country? I'm sure we have all moved on from the cold war era right?

So why not just leave them alone and let them sink or swim on their own?

Japan and South Korea would beg to disagree with you.

Doktor
16 Mar 13,, 07:28
If I read it right, NK has 24mil population if they all flee to PRC and depopulate the land, that would be 1 NORK per every Chinese village.

Hardly they will drain Chinese economy or their food storage.

Commie govs have some pretty efficient ways to disperse vast amount of people in a vast amount of landmass.

Don't see any particular reason CCP to be worried about that wave beside domestic piss off.

doppelganger
16 Mar 13,, 07:33
Japan and South Korea would beg to disagree with you.

Why?

I see North Korea's belligerence as that of an isolated nation lashing out.

What exactly have they done to South Korea or Japan?

Bigfella
16 Mar 13,, 08:40
Just looking around other than the Israeli chick thread and thought I'd try my hand at some serious matter as well.

I never understood this thing about North Korea and the world so thought I'd just risk sounding foolish and blurt it out here.

What IS the world's problem with North Korea?

I mean, with Pakistan I can understand. It is a rogue country fingering everyone, and is nuclear as well.

But North Korea is not a terrorist country. Sure they are nuclear and maybe not legally either. But who are they fingering? I don't think they export terror anywhere. I don't think they are militarily a serious threat to any of the big countries being discussed here (China, USA, Japan, South Korea). As the experts here agree, if they were ever to get too frisky, South Korea could finish them off, leave alone China.

So what is the real problem? That they are a communist country? I'm sure we have all moved on from the cold war era right?

So why not just leave them alone and let them sink or swim on their own?

Have you completely missed the past 60 years? The terrorism, the nuclear proliferation, the kidnapping, the murder, the drug dealing, the arms trading, the counterfeiting, the constant bellicose threats. Did you really miss all of that?

In fact, have you even read this thread properly? I'm guessing not.

You are new here. Take some freindly advice - before jumping into 'serious matters' do a google search & a bit of basic reading. Nothing too complex - even wikipedia will give you some basic facts. it will help you avoid making a fool of yourself and prolong your life here.

Bigfella
16 Mar 13,, 08:43
Why?

I see North Korea's belligerence as that of an isolated nation lashing out.

What exactly have they done to South Korea or Japan?

Ask the newly elected RoK President about her mother - the former First Lady.

doppelganger
16 Mar 13,, 08:46
Have you completely missed the past 60 years? The terrorism, the nuclear proliferation, the kidnapping, the murder, the drug dealing, the arms trading, the counterfeiting, the constant bellicose threats. Did you really miss all of that?

In fact, have you even read this thread properly? I'm guessing not.

You are new here. Take some freindly advice - before jumping into 'serious matters' do a google search & a bit of basic reading. Nothing too complex - even wikipedia will give you some basic facts. it will help you avoid making a fool of yourself and prolong your life here.

I was just wondering what makes North Korea special.

What you are accusing them of, most other countries do as well.

I mean seriously? Kidnapping, drug delaing, murder, arms trading, counterfreiting, bellicosity?

You sure we cannot describe at least a dozen other nations like that, if not more?

doppelganger
16 Mar 13,, 08:50
P.S. Bigfella, dont get me wrong. I am no North Korea supporter. And I'd rather go back to servicing Wisconsin sir's requests myself.

But if you're going to be calling me a fool, I will take you on. So I hope you are not.

Bigfella
16 Mar 13,, 08:51
I was just wondering what makes North Korea special.

What you are accusing them of, most other countries do as well.

I mean seriously? Kidnapping, drug delaing, murder, arms trading, counterfreiting, bellicosity?

You sure we cannot describe at least a dozen other nations like that, if not more?

OK, you want to be obtuse rather than educate yourself. Well, I guess it is less time consuming. Perhaps someone else here can be bothered to explain this to you slowly & then bat back every one of your 'yes, but I have high school debate team skills' rejoinders. I lack the patience for this.

doppelganger
16 Mar 13,, 08:52
OK, you want to be obtuse rather than educate yourself. Well, I guess it is less time consuming. Perhaps someone else here can be bothered to explain this to you slowly & then bat back every one of your 'yes, but I have high school debate team skills' rejoinders. I lack the patience for this.

What you lack is basic etiquette and the stomach for a fight.

You may move on in such case.

Bigfella
16 Mar 13,, 08:55
P.S. Bigfella, dont get me wrong. I am no North Korea supporter. And I'd rather go back to servicing Wisconsin sir's requests myself.

But if you're going to be calling me a fool, I will take you on. So I hope you are not.

I am saying that you are either ignorant or being deliberately obtuse. Anything further requires more time to decide. I have only read your contributions to this thread. they do not inspire hope. As for 'taking me on', that would require me to paritcipate. Instead of defending your intelligence, honour or whatever else you think I am insulting, take the time to read about the sorts of things the DPRK has been doing for the past 60 years. Based on your coments so far you don't have a clue.

Bigfella
16 Mar 13,, 08:55
What you lack is basic etiquette and the stomach for a fight.

You may move on in such case.

Whatever.

doppelganger
16 Mar 13,, 08:57
I am saying that you are either ignorant or being deliberately obtuse. Anything further requires more time to decide. I have only read your contributions to this thread. they do not inspire hope. As for 'taking me on', that would require me to paritcipate. Instead of defending your intelligence, honour or whatever else you think I am insulting, take the time to read about the sorts of things the DPRK has been doing for the past 60 years. Based on your coments so far you don't have a clue.

So basically you will call names and then not play when someone rolls his sleeves up.

Ok. Seems to be the new Aussie way the way your cricket team is playing here as well. :pari:

Bigfella
16 Mar 13,, 09:15
So basically you will call names and then not play when someone rolls his sleeves up.

Ok. Seems to be the new Aussie way the way your cricket team is playing here as well. :pari:

If this is how you react when someone call you out for commenting on something you clearly don't know enough about then you are going to have a short, unhappy life here. I notice that you have begun to 'spread your wings' beyond ogling pictures of women. I suggest you do better than you have here. If you think I am being harsh just wait until you irritate some of the other folks hereabouts. You ain't seen nuthin' yet.

doppelganger
16 Mar 13,, 09:18
If this is how you react when someone call you out for commenting on something you clearly don't know enough about then you are going to have a short, unhappy life here. I notice that you have begun to 'spread your wings' beyond ogling pictures of women. I suggest you do better than you have here. If you think I am being harsh just wait until you irritate some of the other folks hereabouts. You ain't seen nuthin' yet.

You are boring me now. Bye.

zraver
16 Mar 13,, 12:08
Just looking around other than the Israeli chick thread and thought I'd try my hand at some serious matter as well.

I never understood this thing about North Korea and the world so thought I'd just risk sounding foolish and blurt it out here.

What IS the world's problem with North Korea?

Nuclear Weapons Program
missile proliferation
Terrorist attacks against civilians
Terrorist attacks aimed at heads of state
international drug dealing
counterfeiting the global reserve currency
kidnapping the citizens of a foreign country and smuggling them to North Korea
gas and germ warfare experiment son their own people
concentration camps
letting millions starve
armed attacks on its neighbors by submarine delivered commando raids, tunnels, cross border fire, torpedo attacks and random artillery barrages and DMZ snipers
attacking UN peace keepers
Violating just about every treaty they are a party to
threatening to kill millions of people unless paid off (extortion)

North Korea has done quiet enough to warrant war.

zraver
16 Mar 13,, 12:12
You are boring me now. Bye.

It doesn't work that way here. You have 75 post, he has over 6000. You will rapidly face a choice, apologize and earn our respect through contribution, or likely get banned. WAB- many come, few are allowed to stay. Its a steep learning curve. We are a community and as such seniority does have its perks. Those of us with thousands upon thousands of posts are members of the same virtual village we built not you. Your welcome to move in, but we have our laws and customs we expect you to respect.

zraver
16 Mar 13,, 12:13
If this is how you react when someone call you out for commenting on something you clearly don't know enough about then you are going to have a short, unhappy life here. I notice that you have begun to 'spread your wings' beyond ogling pictures of women. I suggest you do better than you have here. If you think I am being harsh just wait until you irritate some of the other folks hereabouts. You ain't seen nuthin' yet.

Have him take a gander at Herr Wehrmacht's recent example...

Tennetc
16 Mar 13,, 12:17
If I read it right, NK has 24mil population if they all flee to PRC and depopulate the land, that would be 1 NORK per every Chinese village.

Hardly they will drain Chinese economy or their food storage.

Commie govs have some pretty efficient ways to disperse vast amount of people in a vast amount of landmass.

Don't see any particular reason CCP to be worried about that wave beside domestic piss off.


But which local village committee will be willing to add a non-chinese speaking outsider to register in the village hukuo?the locals are already not happy about the land stituation as it is (adding new people means more people to eat the pie). The centrel gov can force the local gov to do it, but why enrage them?

Bigfella
16 Mar 13,, 12:20
It doesn't work that way here. You have 75 post, he has over 6000. You will rapidly face a choice, apologize and earn our respect through contribution, or likely get banned. WAB- many come, few are allowed to stay. Its a steep learning curve. We are a community and as such seniority does have its perks. Those of us with thousands upon thousands of posts are members of the same virtual village we built not you. Your welcome to move in, but we have our laws and customs we expect you to respect.

Thanks Z. I'm not fussed about an apology, I just want him to lift his game. I'm going to assume he isn't stupid, so he can show us rather than just getting whiny when he gets called on it. If he thinks I'm tough then he'd better not irritate the Colonel. I'm a wee pussy cat by comparison. :biggrin:

zraver
16 Mar 13,, 12:36
Thanks Z. I'm not fussed about an apology, I just want him to lift his game. I'm going to assume he isn't stupid, so he can show us rather than just getting whiny when he gets called on it. If he thinks I'm tough then he'd better not irritate the Colonel. I'm a wee pussy cat by comparison. :biggrin:

eeggads, I knew i was in the multi-thousand range but 11K posts... I bet OOE is pushing 20, gotta go look.

Looked, in excess of 23,000....

Dopplerganger, take the 6124 of Bigfella times an average of 20 words per post sinve BF can be nearly as wordy as me. That is over 122k words of contribution. He joined in early 07- 6 years ago. See the community?

USSWisconsin
16 Mar 13,, 12:51
I was just wondering what makes North Korea special.

What you are accusing them of, most other countries do as well.

I mean seriously? Kidnapping, drug delaing, murder, arms trading, counterfreiting, bellicosity?

You sure we cannot describe at least a dozen other nations like that, if not more?

Please take a look at this:
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/wab-information-center/46580-semi-offical-wab-survival-guide.html


"what makes North Korea special?".
here are some articles with lots of reference links and good summaries, the thread itself has more info


North Korea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea)

[On January 24, 2013, North Korea announced its intentions to target the United States in its missile and nuclear programs. The statement called the United States, the "sworn enemy of the Korean people".[57]

On March 8, 2013, the North Korean government announced that it was withdrawing from all non-aggression pacts with South Korea in response to UN Resolution 2094.[58][59][60] The announcement said it was closing its joint border crossing with South Korea and cutting off the hotline to the South.[58][59][60]
Bombardment of Yeonpyeong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Yeonpyeong)

ROKS Cheonan sinking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROKS_Cheonan_sinking)

List of border incidents involving North Korea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_border_incidents_involving_North_Korea)

USS Pueblo (AGER-2) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Pueblo_(AGER-2))

TopHatter
16 Mar 13,, 16:02
I do love a self-policing forum :)

doppelganger, it's a shame that you have brought such a narrow-minded attitude to the World Affairs Board in general and this thread specifically.

If the age you have given on your profile is accurate then you are hardly a young person with a young person's attitude.
I suggest that you take the advice and information given by USSWisconsin and study it carefully. It will give you the answers you seek and also assist in becoming in an active and productive member of the board, if that is indeed what you wish.

Red Team
16 Mar 13,, 16:03
doppelganger: North Korea Military Guide - Global Security (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/index.html)

A bit filled with ads but a fairly decent shallow dive into the North Korean perspective.

---

Now for the next issue:

The North Koreans have built and tested a number of "nukes" and as the WAB has largely noted:

North Korea Appears to Test Nuclear Device - World Affairs Board (http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/east-asia-pacific/63682-north-korea-appears-test-nuclear-device.html)

...the thing was a nuclear dud.

However if ROK, US and/or Chinese forces do go into North Korea, what would the potential be for a desperation move by the NORKs to blow up some form of dirty bomb in a key area such as Pyongyang and how would such an event affect long-term prospects for reconstruction?

Blademaster
16 Mar 13,, 20:48
Get over yourselves, Big Fella and zraver, I remember when you guys first came aboard and did worse than what doppelganger and didn't like being called fools or such. WAB is not exclusive for long term members. Like any other forum, it needs newbies to keep from dying out.

If you wanna call somebody a fool, first at least point out why he is wrong and if he continues to go down as a being a fool, then by all means channel your inner Mr. T out in the open. Doppelganger made an open question regarding the hostility towards North Korea and since he is from India not from the western world, he has a different perspective and is asking for your perspective. After all, WAB is a global forum, not just dedicated to American & Western interest.

As for calling somebody fool, as far as I am concerned, the only person allowed to call anybody a fool the first time they post or such is our beloved OOE since he can be so entertaining.

zraver
16 Mar 13,, 21:00
Get over yourselves, Big Fella and zraver, I remember when you guys first came aboard and did worse than what doppelganger and didn't like being called fools or such. WAB is not exclusive for long term members. Like any other forum, it needs newbies to keep from dying out.

If you wanna call somebody a fool, first at least point out why he is wrong and if he continues to go down as a being a fool, then by all means channel your inner Mr. T out in the open. Doppelganger made an open question regarding the hostility towards North Korea and since he is from India not from the western world, he has a different perspective and is asking for your perspective. After all, WAB is a global forum, not just dedicated to American & Western interest.

As for calling somebody fool, as far as I am concerned, the only person allowed to call anybody a fool the first time they post or such is our beloved OOE since he can be so entertaining.

I didn't call him a fool, and I answered his question directly. And yes I came in hot and took a lot of flak, almost got bounced but managed to get it in check in time.

Blademaster
16 Mar 13,, 21:05
I didn't call him a fool, and I answered his question directly. And yes I came in hot and took a lot of flak, almost got bounced but managed to get it in check in time.
Yes I remembered and yes I know you answered his question directly but Big Fella didn't need encouraging to do what he was not qualified to do.

Officer of Engineers
16 Mar 13,, 22:26
If he thinks I'm tough then he'd better not irritate the Colonel. I'm a wee pussy cat by comparison. :biggrin:
As for calling somebody fool, as far as I am concerned, the only person allowed to call anybody a fool the first time they post or such is our beloved OOE since he can be so entertaining.I think I've just been called a meanie.

zraver
16 Mar 13,, 22:39
I think I've just been called a meanie.

But only in the most respectful way.

Doktor
16 Mar 13,, 22:56
But only in the most respectful way.


mean·ie
/ˈmēnē/
Noun
A mean or small-minded person.

Enlight me, please.

Bigfella
17 Mar 13,, 01:05
I think I've just been called a meanie.

I prefer 'strict disciplinarian'. ;)

Bigfella
17 Mar 13,, 01:24
Get over yourselves, Big Fella and zraver, I remember when you guys first came aboard and did worse than what doppelganger and didn't like being called fools or such. WAB is not exclusive for long term members. Like any other forum, it needs newbies to keep from dying out.

If you wanna call somebody a fool, first at least point out why he is wrong and if he continues to go down as a being a fool, then by all means channel your inner Mr. T out in the open. Doppelganger made an open question regarding the hostility towards North Korea and since he is from India not from the western world, he has a different perspective and is asking for your perspective. After all, WAB is a global forum, not just dedicated to American & Western interest.

As for calling somebody fool, as far as I am concerned, the only person allowed to call anybody a fool the first time they post or such is our beloved OOE since he can be so entertaining.

If you really want to help this guy BM I suggest you waste less time lecturing me (again) and more time telling him how to best survive & thrive here. Of course, that was never really the point of this, was it. I could suggest you get over yourself, but I've been here long enough to know that isn't going to happen.

Like Z & like everybody else here I copped my share of wacks when I first arrived. Rather than sulking I learned how to do my research & argue my case better. That is precisely the advice I & other senior members have given to our new member. You lecturing me won't help him survive. Following that advice will.

As for your repeated allegation that I called Doppelganger a 'fool', I did no such thing. I told him the best course of action for him to take to avoid being seen as one when he posts. At this point he seems disinclined to listen. Unfortunately your post will probably not encourage him to do so.

Parihaka
17 Mar 13,, 02:19
I think I've just been called a meanie.

Isn't that some sort of liquorice lolly?

YellowFever
17 Mar 13,, 04:25
I think I've just been called a meanie.

No way!

doppelganger
18 Mar 13,, 07:58
Get over yourselves, Big Fella and zraver, I remember when you guys first came aboard and did worse than what doppelganger and didn't like being called fools or such. WAB is not exclusive for long term members. Like any other forum, it needs newbies to keep from dying out.

If you wanna call somebody a fool, first at least point out why he is wrong and if he continues to go down as a being a fool, then by all means channel your inner Mr. T out in the open. Doppelganger made an open question regarding the hostility towards North Korea and since he is from India not from the western world, he has a different perspective and is asking for your perspective. After all, WAB is a global forum, not just dedicated to American & Western interest.

As for calling somebody fool, as far as I am concerned, the only person allowed to call anybody a fool the first time they post or such is our beloved OOE since he can be so entertaining.

Thanks BM for an Indian perspective. Yes, we in this part of the world are big on etiquette and do not stand around quietly while others call us names. Bigfella I am sorry but you do not have the liberty to call me a fool or any other word. I asked a question which I feel was answered much better by other here than yourself. You just went directly pompous and threw your weight around. Not appreciated and I told you that in no uncertain terms. You can either reply to me or ignore me. Your being senior also means you need to learn some manners to pass them on to newcomers. I feel you have failed there. I will not unnecessarily pull this further now.

Bigfella
18 Mar 13,, 08:01
Bigfella I am sorry but you do not have the liberty to call me a fool or any other word.

I didn't.

doppelganger
18 Mar 13,, 08:04
I didn't.

Semantics buddy. Face to face, its as good as calling the other guy a fool.

Also face to face there are no issues of 6000 posts versus 75.

Lets bury this. I got my answer from others.

Bigfella
18 Mar 13,, 09:10
Semantics buddy. Face to face, its as good as calling the other guy a fool.

Also face to face there are no issues of 6000 posts versus 75.

Lets bury this. I got my answer from others.

Semantically that sounds like a veiled threat.

In any case, you can choose to listen to the person who tells you what you want to hear or the people who tell you what you need to survive. Personally I'm sorta hoping you ignore us.

Doktor
18 Mar 13,, 09:11
32346

doppelganger
18 Mar 13,, 09:30
Semantically that sounds like a veiled threat.

In any case, you can choose to listen to the person who tells you what you want to hear or the people who tell you what you need to survive. Personally I'm sorta hoping you ignore us.

One would really need to be a fool to threaten someone sitting behind his computer on another continent. Just stating a fact.

I'm hoping you would ignore me as well to tell you the truth.

Tennetc
18 Mar 13,, 11:37
To bring this thread back on topic:

As I know, NK got no operational ballistic missile except for some scud copies,so is this anti-missile plan really only for NK or is this an excuse for the US to place more ABM systems against russia and china?

On second thought, this could be a message to NK that their effort to attack US allies and the US itshelf will be futile and also a message to US allies and US public to don't worry, the US can deal with NK


China criticizes U.S. anti-missile North Korea plan
Reuters – 47 mins ago
Email
Share13
Print

View Photo
Reuters/Reuters - China's Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei asks journalists for questions during a news conference in Beijing July 7, 2011. REUTERS/David Gray
BEIJING (Reuters) - China said on Monday U.S. plans to bolster missile defenses in response to provocations by North Korea would only intensify antagonism, and urged Washington to act prudently.
"The anti-missile issue has a direct bearing on global and regional balance and stability. It also concerns mutual strategic interests between countries," Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei told a daily news briefing.
U.S. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel announced plans on Friday to bolster U.S. missile defenses in response to "irresponsible and reckless provocations" by North Korea, which has threatened a preemptive nuclear strike against the United States.
Hong said China believed efforts to increase security and resolve the problem of nuclear proliferation were best achieved through diplomatic means.
"Actions such as strengthening anti-missile (defenses) will intensify antagonism and will not be beneficial to finding a solution for the problem," Hong said.
"China hopes the relevant country will proceed on the basis of peace and stability, adopt a responsible attitude and act prudently."
The Pentagon said the United States had informed China, North Korea's neighbor and closest ally, of its decision to add more interceptors but declined to characterize Beijing's reaction.
The remarks from China's Foreign Ministry come days before U.S. Under Secretary for Terrorism and Financial Intelligence David Cohen visits China to discuss implementation of economic sanctions against North Korea.
China has expressed unease at previous U.S. plans for missile defense systems, as well as sales of such systems to Taiwan and Japan, viewing it as part of an attempt to "encircle" and contain China despite U.S. efforts to ease Chinese fears.
China has responded by developing an anti-missile system of its own, announcing the latest successful test in January.
(Reporting by Sui-Lee Wee; Writing by Ben Blanchard; Editing by Robert Birsel)

Officer of Engineers
18 Mar 13,, 13:57
As I know, NK got no operational ballistic missile except for some scud copies,so is this anti-missile plan really only for NK or is this an excuse for the US to place more ABM systems against russia and china? Of course it's against China. Russia has other routes that don't come across those ABMs.

Officer of Engineers
18 Mar 13,, 14:47
Lets bury this. I got my answer from others.Your unasked question was why are we punishing North Korea to the degree that we're not punishing Pakistan. The answer was we did. We stopped Pakistani nuclear weapons advancement cold ... and truth be told, we did the same thing with India. Both countries are stuck with first generation nukes as the only reliable weapons in their inventory. Forget thermonukes, that's not going to happen without another test.

But that being said, you are being obtuse when you did not do the most basic of research. Within this thread itself, we detailed the very threat the North Koreans posed and it ain't the nukes. To put it mildly, the North Koreans make the ISI look like a bunch of school boys. They kidnapped South Korean and Japanese women and brainwashed them into suicide bombers and I'm not talking about in markets, I'm talking about carrying a bomb onto passenger airliners. The Pakistanis tried to attack your parliament. The North Koreans managed to kill an entire cabinet.

What's more? Despite some very detailed analysis here, you ignore what the real threat was. To put it in context you understand. Not only is Pakistan threatening you with nukes but they're threatening to move their entire population into India.

USSWisconsin
18 Mar 13,, 15:01
I am wondering if NK is a particularly useful "enemy state" for the US because of its proximity to China, who is "friendly" but still worries the US with its military build up. By preparing to deal with NK, the Chinese threat is also addressed to some extent, at least with logistics and the positioning of forward assests. This is just an idea I had, I am not claiming this is actually what our gov't has in mind. I understand the economic ties that the US and PRC have and the unlikelyhood of an actual military conflict, due to the financial impacts to both countries.

astralis
18 Mar 13,, 15:33
whisky,

as you say, it works either way. it's also a message to china that not dealing more proactively against North Korea has consequences.

Red Team
18 Mar 13,, 15:52
Found this good article on military doctrine for both sides in the event of war.

OPLAN 5027 Major Theater War West - Global Security (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/oplan-5027.htm)

Officer of Engineers
18 Mar 13,, 16:31
It's obsolete.

Blademaster
18 Mar 13,, 18:03
Semantically that sounds like a veiled threat.

In any case, you can choose to listen to the person who tells you what you want to hear or the people who tell you what you need to survive. Personally I'm sorta hoping you ignore us.

And I hope that others follow suit with him in ignoring you. Speak for yourself.

TopHatter
18 Mar 13,, 19:17
Please, let's end this round of mud-slinging. Stick to the topic at hand.

xinhui
19 Mar 13,, 06:36
Both North Korea and South Korea began military exercises this month. South Korea's was design to last 2 month. North Korea's lasted 2 days.

They just put on a dog-n-pony show, notice their 4th corp's 170mm Koksan SP gun-howitzers have four powder bags each.

USSWisconsin
19 Mar 13,, 16:43
They just put on a dog-n-pony show, notice their 4th corp's 170mm Koksan SP gun-howitzers have four powder bags each.

They can certainly compose a great picture; a nice battery, a gun firing with projectile captured in flight, ammo layed out on a pallet - it tells a story and provides plenty of suplememtary info. :cool: The photographer is very good. :) This weapon reminds of the old US 175mm gun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koksan_(artillery)

Dreadnought
19 Mar 13,, 22:51
IMO, When all is said and done...target the regime and its military leaders that stoke this "cause" for war first and foremost and by any and all means necessary drone strike, carrier strike, tomahawk strike etc. But make sure that all who continue to stir this get whats coming to them once and for all. In other words, before they get across the border and dont let "sanctuary" deter you one iotta.

Stitch
20 Mar 13,, 01:59
They just put on a dog-n-pony show, notice their 4th corp's 170mm Koksan SP gun-howitzers have four powder bags each.

So now our F-15E pilots know what to look for . . . . .

On a separate note (S2? Gunny? You paying attention?), how do these SP units compare to an M109A6 Paladin?

Albany Rifles
20 Mar 13,, 15:53
how do these SP units compare to an M109A6 Paladin?

It has tracks, spades and a gun tube.

That's where the comparison ends.

chanjyj
20 Mar 13,, 16:43
Actually, I'm not personally convinced that Jon-un is going to do anything, now or in the future. He may get his kicks off a little finger waving now and then but he can't be that stupid to trigger a full scale war. And I'm sure China is having some private chats with him.

I mean, don't you think?

TopHatter
20 Mar 13,, 17:10
Actually, I'm not personally convinced that Jon-un is going to do anything, now or in the future. He may get his kicks off a little finger waving now and then but he can't be that stupid to trigger a full scale war. And I'm sure China is having some private chats with him.

I mean, don't you think?

That's just the problem: He'll continue pulling stunts like the Cheonan sinking and the Yeonpyeong bombardment...and the next time it happens, South Korea is likely going to lash back with some serious firepower.

And the North Koreans don't give a single shit about what the Chinese say as long as the aid keeps rolling in. And unless China wants to trigger a full-scale catastrophe, they'll keep sending it.

1979
20 Mar 13,, 17:28
They would fire some arty rounds at the north, minutes after the nk left the premises
and claim large nk casualties to reassure the south public audience .

this is not Cb , it is a public relations stunt.:frown:

Skywatcher
20 Mar 13,, 19:19
They just put on a dog-n-pony show, notice their 4th corp's 170mm Koksan SP gun-howitzers have four powder bags each.

I think they sold some to the Iranians during that big war, to match the Iraqi G-5s.

Dreadnought
20 Mar 13,, 23:25
Theatening nuclear strikes on the US will no doubt fast track his regime to its eventual end. If we stop playing games with them and lay an ass whiping on them once and for all. Its either that or the game continues. The 28 year old has libraries to learn about threatening anyone with a nuclear strike and its consequences.

And this is where we SHOULD be pressuring China to relate a very direct and clear message since they could all become eventual Chinese immigrants.

chanjyj
21 Mar 13,, 02:55
That's just the problem: He'll continue pulling stunts like the Cheonan sinking and the Yeonpyeong bombardment...and the next time it happens, South Korea is likely going to lash back with some serious firepower.

And the North Koreans don't give a single shit about what the Chinese say as long as the aid keeps rolling in. And unless China wants to trigger a full-scale catastrophe, they'll keep sending it.

I believe the Chinese are coming to the end of the tether with NK.

Bigfella
21 Mar 13,, 07:38
I believe the Chinese are coming to the end of the tether with NK.

Which leads to the interesting question - what does that mean in concrete terms? Chna can turn the screws at whatever speed it chooses, but just what is it prepared to do & just what result might it bring? Will be curious to watch.

Tennetc
21 Mar 13,, 11:33
One way to know for sure if China is going to turn on NK is if china cancels the Sino-North Korean Mutual Aid and Cooperation Friendship Treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-North_Korean_Mutual_Aid_and_Cooperation_Friendship _Treaty), or when 2021 comes (assuming todays NK is still there) and china does not renew this treaty.

Till the above happens, I don't think china will unilaterally make any move against NK, unless provoked(like NK finally making a nuke, attacking SK etc).

Officer of Engineers
21 Mar 13,, 14:30
Which leads to the interesting question - what does that mean in concrete terms? Chna can turn the screws at whatever speed it chooses, but just what is it prepared to do & just what result might it bring? Will be curious to watch.I'm seeing the Chinese are at the end of the rope with baby Kim. They don't respect him and are about to give him a lesson on who's boss. Translation: they ain't going to ship him his Mercedes that he ordered.

They've already stopped his arms trade. North Korea have been shipping advice and blueprints. Actual rockets are off the market.

TopHatter
21 Mar 13,, 17:12
I'm seeing the Chinese are at the end of the rope with baby Kim. They don't respect him and are about to give him a lesson on who's boss. Translation: they ain't going to ship him his Mercedes that he ordered.

But otherwise it'll be business as usual?

DPrime
21 Mar 13,, 17:12
I keep hearing about Chinese fears of North Korean refugees. I must admit it's an angle I was completely unfamiliar with, but on that note, I have a couple of questions...

1. Would not China's main, long-term priority be maintaining a "buffer state" between its territory and South Korea (i.e. US military)? I would think this is more important to them than North Koreans coming across their borders, but maybe I'm missing something here...

2. Would not most refugees aim for South Korea instead? Other than the "party faithful", of course.

In a related vein, is there any possibility whatsoever that China would retaliate against US/Western action in North Korea? In a nutshell, is North Korea (whether they want to keep North Koreans out or maintain a buffer state, or whatever other reason they may have) worth going to war with the US, an important economic... well, if not "partner", then entity, I suppose you could call it. And that's only going to increase as time goes on.

For the matter (and I know I'm getting well off course now), is anything (e.g. Taiwan) worth a war between China and the US, from either country's perspective? Our economic interests are getting more and more intertwined... Seems like both sides have much more to lose than anything they could possibly gain. (Though I suppose one could make that argument for any war, to some degree.)

Of course I'm speaking about realistic possibilities, here. If China were to pull a Pearl Harbour on us, that would be worth retaliating, of course, but that would be very unlikely to occur in the foreseeable future. :)

Red Team
21 Mar 13,, 18:29
DPrime,

1. IMV the buffer state relationship between North Korea and China has been gradually declining because of greatly improved political and economic relations between Seoul and Beijing. Unlike the relationship with North Korea, China would potentially have more to gain from a long term economic standpoint (e.g., increased trade in high-end goods) if the Koreas were to be reunified under the ROK. However, this also presents the potential for a major US military presence right at China's doorstep. It all really depends if they willing to take the gamble that the latter will not happen. In which case, if the Chinese are more worried about maintaining a buffer, then North Korea may very well be the latest prospect for the newest province of the People's Republic.

2. Refugees would likely migrate to whatever border happens to be closer or more importantly, open.

Lastly, any military action between China and the US would significantly jeopardize the current global trade environment and would only serve to unnecessarily drain the resources of both sides. Never mind the potential for a nuclear weapons exchange if things got desperate.

1979
21 Mar 13,, 19:24
2. Would not most refugees aim for South Korea instead? Other than the "party faithful", of course.

They do aim for south korea, however the DMZ is actually very militarized , you can step on a mine or get shot , whereas in the north you can bribe the border guards .

Doktor
21 Mar 13,, 19:34
Unless you kill two of your superiors (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2213851/North-Korean-soldier-kills-superiors-defects-South-Korea-heavily-armed-border.html)and just cross the border.

Officer of Engineers
21 Mar 13,, 23:16
1. Would not China's main, long-term priority be maintaining a "buffer state" between its territory and South Korea (i.e. US military)? I would think this is more important to them than North Koreans coming across their borders, but maybe I'm missing something here...China, in the 80s and mid 90s, was actually envisioning a united Korea under Seoul and had began meetings with Seoul on seeking understanding of US forces in Korea. Kim Jung Il never forgave China for what he believed to be betrayal.


2. Would not most refugees aim for South Korea instead? Other than the "party faithful", of course.If we're talking a self inflicted implosion, refugees would go where it is easiest to get food. Half would goto China, the other half south. If we're talking about war, it's always in the opposite direction of the fighting.


In a related vein, is there any possibility whatsoever that China would retaliate against US/Western action in North Korea? In a nutshell, is North Korea (whether they want to keep North Koreans out or maintain a buffer state, or whatever other reason they may have) worth going to war with the US, an important economic... well, if not "partner", then entity, I suppose you could call it. And that's only going to increase as time goes on.China is not going to war for North Korea.

USSWisconsin
22 Mar 13,, 00:21
Yes, its from last year - but under the same Kim, it seems to add to the answer to "what's so special about NK?"


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2012/mar/06/north-korea-sea-flames-video

Threats about "Seoul in flames " from their "cruel" towed artillery...

Bigfella
22 Mar 13,, 01:26
But otherwise it'll be business as usual?

Thats what I'm wondering - how far will China take it & what is it likely to do that will actually force the DRPK leadership to change course.

Tennetc
22 Mar 13,, 05:07
Thats what I'm wondering - how far will China take it & what is it likely to do that will actually force the DRPK leadership to change course.

I don't know about the chinese govs true position, but in chinese news, NK is never portrayed as rogue. Also to this day China still has not canceled the Sino-North Korean Mutual Aid and Cooperation Friendship Treaty.I remember in 1979, the Sino-Soviet Treaty of Friendship, Alliance and Mutual Assistance ended before china attacked vietnam(a soviet ally).So in my opinion,the unless we see this treaty canceled,I don't think China will do anything unilaterally against NK. China will response only agianst NK actions, the more bad NK actions have agianst China, the more severe the response, including war.We see this to be true now:

NK test nuke---china suspend some aid and move some military units to NK borders

NK test nuke 2nd time---china condeme NK in public

Nk test nuke 3rd time---china allow more UN sanction

If you think I am wrong, pls feel free to correct me

Officer of Engineers
22 Mar 13,, 06:20
I don't know about the chinese govs true position, but in chinese news, NK is never portrayed as rogue.No, they're just portrayed as a bunch of illiterate peasants.


Also to this day China still has not canceled the Sino-North Korean Mutual Aid and Cooperation Friendship Treaty.I remember in 1979, the Sino-Soviet Treaty of Friendship, Alliance and Mutual Assistance ended before china attacked vietnam(a soviet ally).The Sino-Soviet Treaty didn't stop the border clashes resulting in the border war of 1970s.

Tennetc
22 Mar 13,, 06:43
The Sino-Soviet Treaty didn't stop the border clashes resulting in the border war of 1970s.

That is a good point.

After some thougth, I realized one thing, china has now move on from concentrating on ideology and is now concentrating on development(making money).There maybe is a chance china will move unilaterally against NK if it helps with china's development:

Wikileaks cables reveal China 'ready to abandon North Korea' (http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oGdS0B70tRjD0AsVdXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1ZG5kaml vBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA1ZJUDIxNl8yN DI-/SIG=1367rf0em/EXP=1363959681/**http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/29/wikileaks-cables-china-reunified-korea)

Tennetc
22 Mar 13,, 06:50
Also, better relations with SK may be desired by china to help act as counter force against Japan.

btw may I ask, with SK and Japan both being US allies and SK still having territorial issue with china, any chance of SK siding with china in a sino-japan dispute if china aids SK with NK?

Bigfella
22 Mar 13,, 07:21
Tennetc,

The problem for the DPRK is that China's leadership appears to be coming to the conclusion that having an expanded RoK as a neighbour is a better idea than having the DPRK as a dependent. There really is little upside to having to pay for the ongoing expstence of the DPRK & a lot of upside to having a stable, peaceful & prosperous RoK as a neighbour. China would go from sinking money into a bottomless pit to support a dangerous & well armed religious cult masquerading as a nation to having dramatically expanded trade links with a successful economy.

Of course, it isn't nearly that easy. China doesn't want to be seen to publically ditch a long term ally at a time when it is expanding its global presence. There is also no clear 'endgame' that is not an unholy mess for everbody. As the COlonel points out, China could shut down the DPRK more or less completely by easter....but that would be a disaster.

That is why I am interested in what China can reasonably do here. Taking actions that hurt the people of the DPRK might have an impact on the leadership, but how much hurt do you need to impose? The Kims have let millions die before. Besides, the ensuing mess might draw China into something it wants to avoid. I'm not really sure anybody involved has worked out a way to remove the DPRK leadership that doesn't involve a lot of dead bodies. If those bodies were only Nth Korean somebody might make a move, but there are going to be eihter dead CHinses, dead Sth Koreans or both to add to the pile. I can't help thinking everybody is going to just bumble along here, tinkering at the margins when possible, but without any clear idea of what to do.

Tennetc
22 Mar 13,, 09:05
Tennetc,Of course, it isn't nearly that easy. China doesn't want to be seen to publically ditch a long term ally at a time when it is expanding its global presence.

you are right here.that was why I talked about the sino-NK treaty, but as the OOE has stated, if there is conflict of interest, china may not uphold the treaty.


That is why I am interested in what China can reasonably do here. Taking actions that hurt the people of the DPRK might have an impact on the leadership, but how much hurt do you need to impose?The Kims have let millions die before. Besides, the ensuing mess might draw China into something it wants to avoid. I'm not really sure anybody involved has worked out a way to remove the DPRK leadership that doesn't involve a lot of dead bodies. If those bodies were only Nth Korean somebody might make a move, but there are going to be eihter dead CHinses, dead Sth Koreans or both to add to the pile. I can't help thinking everybody is going to just bumble along here, tinkering at the margins when possible, but without any clear idea of what to do.
you are right,it does seem everybody is not willing or don't what to do about NK

China has tried before to tell NK's leaders to copy china's opening up policy,if they had listened, there may have been a way out, but it seems they will not listened.Now it seems we are left with either change a leader who will listen or help SK unite with NK. Needless to say both of this is very hard to do and china may not be willing to use so much resource to do it.

In a ideal world, the best way will be for the US,SK,China and to some extend russia and japan to truely work together(not like now, where all nations will only look out for its own inetrest and don't trust each other much) to force unification using both outside influenced coup and military actions.The major conflict of interest here is:

1) Who pays the NK-SK reunification fee
2) Who will initially be resposible for taking care of and bringing the N koreans to the 21st century
3) For China, how much influence left after reunification
4) For USA, how much influence left after reunification

Also for china public willingness may not be too big a problem, but if USA has to send troops public willingness maybe a problem, for SK, public willingness is bigger problem.

Also,for the refugee problem,I believe if enough money and preparation time is given, it may be able to be controlled.The key is to keep the refugees in NK land, that means food must be able to get inside NK as soon as possible, and by this I don't mean setting up refugee camps inside NK, I mean the food has to get to people's home.To do this the NK leadership and loyal force must be decisively and quickly killed and major fighting done as fast as posible.I believe the combined strengh of US,SK,China can pull this off is true co-operation is there.

The SK military has trained with US military so co-operation is no problem there, as for china, since chinese and US military ways are diferent ,co-operation may be harder,but they can use the method of each force take care of different sectors and responsibilty, that means not even US air support in chinese area of responsibilty, if US is responsible for initial bombing, no chinese airplane allowed in area etc.This way military co-operation is possible

Of course because Nations will always look out for their interest in the real world, this will not happen unless NK does something so bad that US,SK and China's interests will together be hurt(eg NK makes a real working nuke, NK attack SK etc),and even then co-operation will still be shaky conflict of interest filled, thus results will not be as desired.

So,yes, as of now, I too think there is nothing china or anyone else can do.

Bigfella
22 Mar 13,, 10:32
you are right here.that was why I talked about the sino-NK treaty, but as the OOE has stated, if there is conflict of interest, china may not uphold the treaty.

China would at least need the appearance of a very good reason just to drop such an ally. Of course, that could be one big event or an accrual of smaller events over time. Certainly could be done - the DPRK is certainly dumb enough to give China an excuse....or at least dumb enough to let China manipulate it into giving one if it chooses to.


you are right,it does seem everybody is not willing or don't what to do about NK

The DPRK has made itself a problem wihtout an easy solution - to some extent this might be seen as a 'success' on the part of the Kims. Keeping power is what really matters to them.


China has tried before to tell NK's leaders to copy china's opening up policy,if they had listened, there may have been a way out, but it seems they will not listened.Now it seems we are left with either change a leader who will listen or help SK unite with NK. Needless to say both of this is very hard to do and china may not be willing to use so much resource to do it.

Nobody wants to pay that bill.


In a ideal world, the best way will be for the US,SK,China and to some extend russia and japan to truely work together(not like now, where all nations will only look out for its own inetrest and don't trust each other much) to force unification using both outside influenced coup and military actions.

In a world that ideal the DPRK would have already reformed itself. ;)


1) Who pays the NK-SK reunification fee
2) Who will initially be resposible for taking care of and bringing the N koreans to the 21st century

If there is reunification the RoK will probably get help from others. If China takes over I'm not so sure.


3) For China, how much influence left after reunification
4) For USA, how much influence left after reunification

It looks like China cares less & less about that - 'influence' over the DPRK isn't worth much. I'm honestly not sure the US cares much about 'influence' in the RoK either. Given Korea's history of being caught between its more powerful neighbours I would expect it to remain a strong US ally, though that may not mean US troops.


Also,for the refugee problem,I believe if enough money and preparation time is given, it may be able to be controlled.The key is to keep the refugees in NK land, that means food must be able to get inside NK as soon as possible, and by this I don't mean setting up refugee camps inside NK, I mean the food has to get to people's home.To do this the NK leadership and loyal force must be decisively and quickly killed and major fighting done as fast as posible.I believe the combined strengh of US,SK,China can pull this off is true co-operation is there.

All fine in theory, not sure how easy it will be in practice.


The SK military has trained with US military so co-operation is no problem there, as for china, since chinese and US military ways are diferent ,co-operation may be harder,but they can use the method of each force take care of different sectors and responsibilty, that means not even US air support in chinese area of responsibilty, if US is responsible for initial bombing, no chinese airplane allowed in area etc.This way military co-operation is possible

I don't forsee China formally co-operating with anyone militarily to take down the DPRK. I think I mentioned in another post the possibility that China might use a DPRK/RoK war as a pretext to take down the Kims, but the most 'co-operaton' there would be to avoid shooting each other by accident.

doppelganger
22 Mar 13,, 10:49
What is the scene between North and South Korea as against what we have between India and Pakistan? I mean on a people to people level? Do the two sides love each other and want reunification? Like East and West Germany?

Tennetc
22 Mar 13,, 11:38
it looks like China cares less & less about that - 'influence' over the DPRK isn't worth much. I'm honestly not sure the US cares much about 'influence' in the RoK either. Given Korea's history of being caught between its more powerful neighbours I would expect it to remain a strong US ally, though that may not mean US troops.

What I meant was influence on a united korea.China may not care for influence over a united korea, but would be wary if the united korea is firmly in the US camp, so in any event that may lead to a united korea, china will try all ways to try and keep some influence over there, same for USA, she will try to keep the united korea a US ally to counter china. Of couse the united kora hershelf will want more independence so, it is going to be interesting.

Tennetc
22 Mar 13,, 11:44
What is the scene between North and South Korea as against what we have between India and Pakistan? I mean on a people to people level? Do the two sides love each other and want reunification? Like East and West Germany?

From what I know, old people in SK still care about the families in NK, the young people don't care much,they may not hate the NK common people, but old or young, they are not willing to give up their good life now to help NK's people come to the 21st century.

The NK people's view towards SK's people is harder to know because real news from there is hard to get, but I suspect the young totally brain-washed one truely hate the S koreans

doppelganger
22 Mar 13,, 12:51
but old or young, they are not willing to give up their good life now to help NK's people come to the 21st century.

Thanks Tennetc. Sort of like what West Germans felt towards East Germans when the wall came down?

I think the good part in both cases was that there was no religious hatred involved. That tears brothers up worse than strangers in terms of enmity.

Officer of Engineers
22 Mar 13,, 19:17
Actually now that I recall, the Chinese actually wanted US troops to stay in a united Korea. It's the only thing stopping a united Korea from going to war against Japan.

Parihaka
22 Mar 13,, 21:10
In my mind the key is for the Chinese to buy off the KPA. New toys and training, bilateral exercises etc. A few fat pensions, a reasonable time spent poo throwing and the latest Kim gets shuffled off to a life of contemplation in a monastery and a 'colonial administrator' gets put in his place. Start lots of joint venture factories paying slave labour rates which are still 10 times better than what the NK population currently gets, make sure everyone gets fed and you have the model both the PRC and RoK used to lift both their countries. 20 years from now the two countries sit down and talk about some sort of Hong Kong type solution.
As for the KPA, by this time what's left of them will be rotating through the rest of China, just as the Romans did with their foreign battalions.

Blademaster
23 Mar 13,, 00:57
In my mind the key is for the Chinese to buy off the KPA. New toys and training, bilateral exercises etc. A few fat pensions, a reasonable time spent poo throwing and the latest Kim gets shuffled off to a life of contemplation in a monastery and a 'colonial administrator' gets put in his place. Start lots of joint venture factories paying slave labour rates which are still 10 times better than what the NK population currently gets, make sure everyone gets fed and you have the model both the PRC and RoK used to lift both their countries. 20 years from now the two countries sit down and talk about some sort of Hong Kong type solution.
As for the KPA, by this time what's left of them will be rotating through the rest of China, just as the Romans did with their foreign battalions.

And SK is ok with this? I mean I can understand disliking the NKs but letting NK completely go the way of Chinese is a stupid move long term. If I was SK, it would be in my long term best interest to get NK unified with SK and under SK's system.

Parihaka
23 Mar 13,, 03:13
And SK is ok with this? I mean I can understand disliking the NKs but letting NK completely go the way of Chinese is a stupid move long term. If I was SK, it would be in my long term best interest to get NK unified with SK and under SK's system.

But to balance that they'd have to cover huge costs that would make the incorporation of East Germany seem like childs play. I'm not suggesting that China take over, i'm suggesting that China has to make the first move in disposing of the Kims, then who takes over long term becomes a discussion between China and SK. I mean it can't be worse for anyone than it currently is....

Officer of Engineers
23 Mar 13,, 03:41
But to balance that they'd have to cover huge costs that would make the incorporation of East Germany seem like childs play. I'm not suggesting that China take over, i'm suggesting that China has to make the first move in disposing of the Kims, then who takes over long term becomes a discussion between China and SK. I mean it can't be worse for anyone than it currently is....Of course it can. Imagine a North Korea's Deng Xia Peng determined to win back the South.

Blademaster
23 Mar 13,, 03:46
There are times where you have to bite the bullet. In this case, letting the China completely subvert NK into another province of China is a very bad move and worse long term. If I were SK, I would secretly hope that Kim Jong Un holds out for another decade while my economy gets into $2T range and start saving some money to inject into NK once NK collapses and SK takes over.

I do not agree with China's or OOE's thinking that an unified Korea would turn its attention towards Japan. Why? Because SK would be so busy rehabilitating NK for 20 or 30 years and by that time, any memories of WWII are long dead since the surviving members are now dead or don't remember and the next generation may only remember their parents' grievances but did not have the experience that their parents had so their desire for revenge is significantly lessened over time. By the time, an unified Korea is ready to turn its attention to anywhere, the geopolitical reality would have change making those fears that Beijing and Washington have groundless.

Officer of Engineers
23 Mar 13,, 03:56
What faster way to unite North and South Korea than a common enemy?

GVChamp
23 Mar 13,, 03:58
It's not the money, it's the re-integration of people that's the problem. You can't just build factories and infrastructure in North Korea and say "okay, you has economoy nao!"

Actual economies are complex series of interactions that get built over a long period of time. Everyone in this thread has been raised as a capitalist since you were in first grade and your math questions were asking about the price of apples. The East Germans at least had some semblance of how economic relations MIGHT work, though not a great idea of institutionalized market relations.

I figure the NORKs might as well be 2 year olds that have the disadvantage of being too old to learn. Which means those 25 million NORKs are going to be a permanent dependent class on SK that is going to completely change the way SK operates, economically, politically, socially.

They will be second-class citizens and not economically integrated 200-300 years from now.

Officer of Engineers
23 Mar 13,, 04:27
South Korea, China, Taiwan, and Japan didn't take 200 years.

Skywatcher
23 Mar 13,, 04:36
In my mind the key is for the Chinese to buy off the KPA. New toys and training, bilateral exercises etc. A few fat pensions, a reasonable time spent poo throwing and the latest Kim gets shuffled off to a life of contemplation in a monastery and a 'colonial administrator' gets put in his place. Start lots of joint venture factories paying slave labour rates which are still 10 times better than what the NK population currently gets, make sure everyone gets fed and you have the model both the PRC and RoK used to lift both their countries. 20 years from now the two countries sit down and talk about some sort of Hong Kong type solution.
As for the KPA, by this time what's left of them will be rotating through the rest of China, just as the Romans did with their foreign battalions.

One of the prolbems I have is that residual lunatics and die hards in the KPA might use those new toys to go shooting at their southern brothers or take aim at the PLA.

Tennetc
23 Mar 13,, 04:47
It's not the money, it's the re-integration of people that's the problem. You can't just build factories and infrastructure in North Korea and say "okay, you has economoy nao!"

Actual economies are complex series of interactions that get built over a long period of time. Everyone in this thread has been raised as a capitalist since you were in first grade and your math questions were asking about the price of apples. The East Germans at least had some semblance of how economic relations MIGHT work, though not a great idea of institutionalized market relations.

I figure the NORKs might as well be 2 year olds that have the disadvantage of being too old to learn. Which means those 25 million NORKs are going to be a permanent dependent class on SK that is going to completely change the way SK operates, economically, politically, socially.

They will be second-class citizens and not economically integrated 200-300 years from now.

That is very true, for eg: Some SE Asian countries got lower lobour cost then china, but still can't make a cheaper knitwear then china, why? the whole industry web is just not there:mill to get the yarn, place to buy machine parts, chemical plants for dyes ,sample showrooms, gov inspectors, transport companies and many more.It took china 30 years to build all this.Knitwear is very low tech stuff, but to compete in todays global market, we need all that.And I am talking about SE Asian, NK will be at a totally different level

And another thing to consider, some young N koreans who lived all their lives under the Kims, there is no way of knowing if they can totally accept the changes that are going to happen mentally. there is going to be a lot of social and security problems in the initial years.

But, I don't think it'll take 200-300 years, judging from chinese experience, 30-50 years is OK

GVChamp
23 Mar 13,, 05:00
South Korea, China, Taiwan, and Japan didn't take 200 years.

Very true, all those places have grown richer and I am very pleased with this. They are, however, economically inferior to the core Western nations in per-hour productivity stats. Japan is closer to Italy and South Korea is closer to Russia. They are wealthy nations, but they are wealthy in part by working lots, not by being as productive as the Dutch, who have been (comparatively) productive since before the United Provinces.

I wouldn't be surprised if China tops out even sooner than SK, and India and Africa haven't really advanced much in per capita welfare at all besides a few areas.

The social/economic stuff we see now is generally the result of processes that have been playing out for centuries.

Not necessarily bad, but when you take a group of people under your political banner, how they integrate is a big issue. The African-Americans have never really integrated into the American population the way Polish-Americans have, for instance. THIS current crop of North Koreans is probably NEVER going to integrate into the general Korean population. I have no idea how they will raise their children.

But I err on the conservative when it comes to these things.

Bigfella
23 Mar 13,, 05:18
In my mind the key is for the Chinese to buy off the KPA. New toys and training, bilateral exercises etc. A few fat pensions, a reasonable time spent poo throwing and the latest Kim gets shuffled off to a life of contemplation in a monastery and a 'colonial administrator' gets put in his place. Start lots of joint venture factories paying slave labour rates which are still 10 times better than what the NK population currently gets, make sure everyone gets fed and you have the model both the PRC and RoK used to lift both their countries. 20 years from now the two countries sit down and talk about some sort of Hong Kong type solution.
As for the KPA, by this time what's left of them will be rotating through the rest of China, just as the Romans did with their foreign battalions.

The Colonel can correct me here if I get my info wrong, but I got the impression they'd already tried to buy influence in the KPA & the result was a bunch of dead KPA officers - many of whom may have had nothing to do with what China was attempting. I seem to recall some guys getting burned at the stake in front of their families. The people in charge know that the army is the only possible threat so it is watched like a hawk. My bet is that people in the army only risk turning on the Kims & their allies if the alternative looks as bad or worse.

The rest is certainly possible. I'm guessing Seouk would have mixed feelings. No reunification is bad, not footing the financial & human cost of reuinfication is good. The problem is that this wouldn't be remotely as easy as East Germany on any level. Might be easier for China to rule it as an autonomous colony.

Officer of Engineers
23 Mar 13,, 06:13
An army marches on its stomach

North Korean troops desperate to escape secretive state are caught at Chinese border | World | News | Daily Express (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/386175/North-Korean-troops-desperate-to-escape-secretive-state-are-caught-at-Chinese-border)

It's stomach is apparently empty

Red Team
23 Mar 13,, 06:21
...Because SK would be so busy rehabilitating NK for 20 or 30 years and by that time, any memories of WWII are long dead since the surviving members are now dead or don't remember and the next generation may only remember their parents' grievances but did not have the experience that their parents had so their desire for revenge is significantly lessened over time. By the time, an unified Korea is ready to turn its attention to anywhere, the geopolitical reality would have change making those fears that Beijing and Washington have groundless.

The animosity between the Koreans and Japanese runs much deeper than WWII, going back to both the former's days as a Japanese colony during the Meiji period and even as far back as the Samurai Age (although some of that area of history is still muddied with inconsistencies between Korean/Japanese Scholars). Imagine the sociopolitical bitterness between Great Britain and the United States right after the Revolutionary War, sprinkle in a little bit of millennias-old racial/cultural tension and you've basically got the idea of how the two feel about each other.

Japan-Korea Relations - Wikipedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Japan–Korea_relations#section_1)

doppelganger
23 Mar 13,, 06:55
I do not agree with China's or OOE's thinking that an unified Korea would turn its attention towards Japan. Why? Because SK would be so busy rehabilitating NK for 20 or 30 years and by that time, any memories of WWII are long dead since the surviving members are now dead or don't remember and the next generation may only remember their parents' grievances but did not have the experience that their parents had so their desire for revenge is significantly lessened over time. By the time, an unified Korea is ready to turn its attention to anywhere, the geopolitical reality would have change making those fears that Beijing and Washington have groundless.

Blade sir, 65+ years on most of the adults of undivided India are also dead. Has not lessened the love and warmth between India and Pakistan any.

Some sentiments and emotions get ingrained into one's DNA. I think Carl Gustav Jung called it the collective unconscious or something?

Bigfella
23 Mar 13,, 07:18
The animosity between the Koreans and Japanese runs much deeper than WWII, going back to both the former's days as a Japanese colony during the Meiji period and even as far back as the Samurai Age (although some of that area of history is still muddied with inconsistencies between Korean/Japanese Scholars). Imagine the sociopolitical bitterness between Great Britain and the United States right after the Revolutionary War, sprinkle in a little bit of millennias-old racial/cultural tension and you've basically got the idea of how the two feel about each other.

Japan-Korea Relations - Wikipedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Japan–Korea_relations#section_1)

Of course, a unified Korea with a big ole' land border with China might have a slightly different perspective 'realpolitik' wise. Whatever they might think about Japan, it isn't going to be a serious territorial threat in the forseeable future. I'm guessing Korea's history wiht China isn't dramatically better than wiht Japan (if more distant). They might figure security from the closer threat matters more than generations-old revenge. On a related note Vietnam is now allowing US ships to port. A border with China seems to do wonders for clearing up historical grudges. ;)

Chogy
23 Mar 13,, 14:13
An army marches on its stomach

North Korean troops desperate to escape secretive state are caught at Chinese border | World | News | Daily Express (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/386175/North-Korean-troops-desperate-to-escape-secretive-state-are-caught-at-Chinese-border)

It's stomach is apparently empty

And the NK soldiers captured by China were sent back... Life expectancy for those troops? A week at most? That's brutal.

Red Team
23 Mar 13,, 15:46
Of course, a unified Korea with a big ole' land border with China might have a slightly different perspective 'realpolitik' wise. Whatever they might think about Japan, it isn't going to be a serious territorial threat in the forseeable future. I'm guessing Korea's history wiht China isn't dramatically better than wiht Japan (if more distant). They might figure security from the closer threat matters more than generations-old revenge. On a related note Vietnam is now allowing US ships to port. A border with China seems to do wonders for clearing up historical grudges. ;)

Oh of course from a pragmatic standpoint an alliance between a unified Korea and Japan would be a perfect counterweight to potential Chinese expansion. And really if the British and French were able to make nice in the face of German aggression, I don't see much else stopping the Koreans and Japanese from experiencing the same thing. :)

Officer of Engineers
23 Mar 13,, 15:52
Of course, a unified Korea with a big ole' land border with China might have a slightly different perspective 'realpolitik' wise. Whatever they might think about Japan, it isn't going to be a serious territorial threat in the forseeable future. I'm guessing Korea's history wiht China isn't dramatically better than wiht Japan (if more distant). They might figure security from the closer threat matters more than generations-old revenge. On a related note Vietnam is now allowing US ships to port. A border with China seems to do wonders for clearing up historical grudges. ;)Despite the threat from North Korea, the South Korean Navy is looking east rather than north.

Skywatcher
23 Mar 13,, 18:36
Oh of course from a pragmatic standpoint an alliance between a unified Korea and Japan would be a perfect counterweight to potential Chinese expansion. And really if the British and French were able to make nice in the face of German aggression, I don't see much else stopping the Koreans and Japanese from experiencing the same thing. :)

The Japanese are still dumb enough to keep on claiming the Dokdos.

Officer of Engineers
23 Mar 13,, 21:13
Oh of course from a pragmatic standpoint an alliance between a unified Korea and Japan would be a perfect counterweight to potential Chinese expansion. And really if the British and French were able to make nice in the face of German aggression, I don't see much else stopping the Koreans and Japanese from experiencing the same thing. :)If a nuclear hell bent North Korea with a history of violent behaviour couldn't do it, what makes you think a business as hell bent China could?

Red Team
23 Mar 13,, 22:34
If a nuclear hell bent North Korea with a history of violent behaviour couldn't do it, what makes you think a business as hell bent China could?

Sir to clarify, I believe it would take no less than the actions of an "all bark and more bite" China with the expansionary ambitions of the Third Reich to bring the two nations together; an alliance of extreme necessity if you will. So far, the NORKs have merely portrayed themselves to the international community as an irresponsible rogue nation with a temper tantrum disproportional to its actual military capabilities and therefore, not a threat requiring such a drastic measure as a formal Japan/ROK alliance (especially with both nations being backed from the US).

Officer of Engineers
24 Mar 13,, 00:46
Ok, let me rephrase! A North Korea backed by a nuclear armed but insane China hell bent on exporting the Cultural Revolution could not get Seoul and Tokyo together.

Red Team
24 Mar 13,, 02:06
Ok, let me rephrase! A North Korea backed by a nuclear armed but insane China hell bent on exporting the Cultural Revolution could not get Seoul and Tokyo together.

Sir I understand tensions between the countries go back through centuries of war and atrocities, but has anything in particular occurred to have brought relations to this point?

Officer of Engineers
24 Mar 13,, 02:15
Korea and China hates Japan more than they fear each other.

Tennetc
24 Mar 13,, 02:50
Oh of course from a pragmatic standpoint an alliance between a unified Korea and Japan would be a perfect counterweight to potential Chinese expansion. And really if the British and French were able to make nice in the face of German aggression, I don't see much else stopping the Koreans and Japanese from experiencing the same thing. :)

Form my point of view, nothing in chinese news, gov publication, leaders speech etc ever suggests china intends to take korean land, and no chinese action at the moment is made towards future plans to take korean land.Of course there is the Suyan Rock(Socotra Rock) dispute, but that can hardly be considered a expansion threat.

Officer of Engineers
24 Mar 13,, 05:14
And Kim just got spanked

China stops oil exports to North Korea, possibly as punishment for nuclear test - Washington Times (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/mar/22/china-stops-oil-exports-north-korea-possibly-punis/?utm_source=RSS_Feed&utm_medium=RSS)

Bigfella
24 Mar 13,, 05:30
And Kim just got spanked

China stops oil exports to North Korea, possibly as punishment for nuclear test - Washington Times (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/mar/22/china-stops-oil-exports-north-korea-possibly-punis/?utm_source=RSS_Feed&utm_medium=RSS)

OUCH! Be curious to see what, if any impact this has.

Sir,

A question. If Reuters is correct the info here came from Chinese customs data. Would it be safe to assume that if China didn't want that info public it could ensure it wasn't? Following on, if China has let this info become public is that a calculated choice - letting the world know that the DPRK is off the Christmas card list, so to speak.

Officer of Engineers
24 Mar 13,, 05:53
OUCH! Be curious to see what, if any impact this has.Korea is in the northern hemisphere meaning it's still winter and there is still snow on the ground. It's hurting.


A question. If Reuters is correct the info here came from Chinese customs data. Would it be safe to assume that if China didn't want that info public it could ensure it wasn't? Following on, if China has let this info become public is that a calculated choice - letting the world know that the DPRK is off the Christmas card list, so to speak.All of Feb would imply that this was a solely Chinese action without UN approval, more likely at first a reaction to the ICBM test and then later carried on further because of the nuke test. This was designed to send Kim a message on whose boss. The UN sanctions are being implemented as we speak

China tightens trade restrictions with North Korea | Toronto Star (http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2013/03/23/china_tightens_trade_restrictions_with_north_korea .html)

chanjyj
24 Mar 13,, 05:55
Very interesting development. I feel very sorry for the NK population.

Bigfella
24 Mar 13,, 06:17
Korea is in the northern hemisphere meaning it's still winter and there is still snow on the ground. It's hurting.

I imagine it is


All of Feb would imply that this was a solely Chinese action without UN approval, more likely at first a reaction to the ICBM test and then later carried on further because of the nuke test. This was designed to send Kim a message on whose boss. The UN sanctions are being implemented as we speak

China tightens trade restrictions with North Korea | Toronto Star (http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2013/03/23/china_tightens_trade_restrictions_with_north_korea .html)

Interesting but not quite what I was trying to find out - is China making a point of letting the world know it is doing this? While I imagine the US & some others would have been able to work it out eventually, but this all seems pretty public. China seems to be sending a message to more than just the DPRK....or am I reading too much into this?

Bigfella
24 Mar 13,, 06:17
Very interesting development. I feel very sorry for the NK population.

Yep. Welcome to the last 60 years - sucks to be Nth Korean.

Officer of Engineers
24 Mar 13,, 06:21
Interesting but not quite what I was trying to find out - is China making a point of letting the world know it is doing this? While I imagine the US & some others would have been able to work it out eventually, but this all seems pretty public. China seems to be sending a message to more than just the DPRK....or am I reading too much into this?This is the CCP. If it wasn't their intent in the first place. It is now ... or rather, they will make it anything they want. In other words, I don't know but it would not be beyond the CCP to twist the situation to their advantage.

chanjyj
24 Mar 13,, 06:21
Yep. Welcome to the last 60 years - sucks to be Nth Korean.

Going to suck more. Last time you had worms to eat. This time you have to eat the grass.

1979
24 Mar 13,, 13:00
And the NK soldiers captured by China were sent back... Life expectancy for those troops? A week at most? That's brutal.

Not sending them back would equal granting them political refuge status and that was not going to happen.
If you want to defect while in uniform , south is the only option.

Mushroom
25 Mar 13,, 07:01
North Korea is more like the Empire of Japan than any of former or current communist nations. The current Kim is to the Koreans what the Emperor was to the Japanese. The population of North korean is brain washed by the 1984 government they live under and they are prepared for a fight. The NKPA is basically the Gulf War era Iraqi Army Saddam but there are two differences.

1. The troops in the NKPA are more than willing to die for the reasons mentioned above unlike the Iraqis.
2. It isn't open desert but woods, mountains and cities.

Due to the factors above taking North Korea would be a bloody mess but a victory for the US in the end. However this really doesn't matter at the moment for one reason and that is that North Korea clearly is not going to attack! How do I know this? Because they keep talking about it.

Tennetc
25 Mar 13,, 07:48
North Korea is more like the Empire of Japan than any of former or current communist nations.

Empire of Japan was able to do a pearl habour, NK can't even feed the NKPA.


The current Kim is to the Koreans what the Emperor was to the Japanese.

US did not kill Hirohito so they could control the local population. Kim's death will not effect invading powers control of the local population, food will.

t
they are prepared for a fight.

they got no food,no fuel and are training for 3-4 days of fighting.....they are not prepared.


The NKPA is basically the Gulf War era Iraqi Army Saddam but there are two differences.

1. The troops in the NKPA are more than willing to die for the reasons mentioned above unlike the Iraqis.
2. It isn't open desert but woods, mountains and cities.

I bet more NKPA soldiers will put down arms when they see food then fight.


Due to the factors above taking North Korea would be a bloody mess but a victory for the US in the end. However this really doesn't matter at the moment for one reason and that is that North Korea clearly is not going to attack! How do I know this? Because they keep talking about it.

what victory for the US?pls explain?the fear is not NK will attack, the fear is NK will implode

Bigfella
25 Mar 13,, 07:58
North Korea is more like the Empire of Japan than any of former or current communist nations.

Only in limited ways.


The current Kim is to the Koreans what the Emperor was to the Japanese. The population of North korean is brain washed by the 1984 government they live under and they are prepared for a fight.

The Japanese people didn't spend two generations on the verge of starving, ekeing out an existence in the knowledge that others were doing MUCH better and living under a totalitarian state where whole families were punished & the alleged crimes of a person could be borne by their family for generations. There is a comparison, but don't stretch it too far.


The NKPA is basically the Gulf War era Iraqi Army Saddam but there are two differences.

1. The troops in the NKPA are more than willing to die for the reasons mentioned above unlike the Iraqis.
2. It isn't open desert but woods, mountains and cities.

Sorry, there are a LOT more differences than that. I expect the Colonel can knock up a more comprehensive list than me, but allow me to offer a few more rather important differences. The Iraqi army in 1991, especially the high quality divisions at its core, were well armed troops with a wealth of combat experience. They had fought a tough war against a numerically superior enemy for 8 years & held their own, and then were able to rebuild. While outmatched by the US military, these guys had quality modern weapons systems & the skills to use them under fire. After decades of having oil money pour through their coffers they were also well resourced - fuel, spares, ammo - all the stuff an army needs. As Third World armies go they were pretty good. In the US Army they were also fighting an enemy that only had months to put togetehr a plan to beat them. They also had a relatively modern airforce....that was sent out of harms way early.

Lets compare to the KPA. These guys are mostly running stuff that was out of date in 1990. Some of it was probably out of date in 1970. They have zero combat experience. In fact, while the Iraqis spent 8 years fighting, the KPA can barely mount a small exercise lsting a few weeks. They simply lack the fuel, spares & ammo to do it. Their airforce is made up of either poorly maintained museum pieces or the cheapest available versions of newer Russian & Chinese exports. Issues with fuel & spares mean that pilots & ground crews don't get to train anywhere near as much as their RoK or US equivalents. They will have little more impact than the Iraqi airforce did. In 1990 Iraqi forces were about a generation behind US forces on average (though they had some equipment that was of equal or sometimes better quality). The best KPA units are worse than that on paper and dramatically worse than that in reality. Once the fighting starts they will be cut off & without resupply....including food.

The KPA are also facing an enemy that has spent 60+ years training to fight this war on this terrain and are WAY better in every respect. Don't forget what percentage of the RoK population live within artillery range of the DMZ. Those RoK guys charging north aren't fighting for some tin god who has kept them poor, hungry & scared, they are fightng for their homes & families. Don't underestimate them.

You are right about the KPA being dug in. They have a ton of artillery & they have spent decades entrenching. There will be areas where the fighting is tough & bloody, but the great thing about entrenched forces is that they can't move & they can't project combat power very far from themselves.


Due to the factors above taking North Korea would be a bloody mess but a victory for the US in the end.

In this scenario it will be an RoK victory with US assistance. Bloody? probably, but most of the bodies will be on the northern side of the DMZ.


However this really doesn't matter at the moment for one reason and that is that North Korea clearly is not going to attack! How do I know this? Because they keep talking about it.

That & the fact that China just reminded them that it can cut off oil & food at a moment's notice. The Colonel quoted napoleon a page or so back about an Army marching on its stomach. In modern warfare that means two things - food & fuel. The KPA will most likely have to fight without much of either.

Officer of Engineers
25 Mar 13,, 13:35
North Korea is more like the Empire of Japan than any of former or current communist nations. The current Kim is to the Koreans what the Emperor was to the Japanese. The population of North korean is brain washed by the 1984 government they live under and they are prepared for a fight.No, not brainwashed, isolated. They don't know any better because their access to the outside world is extremely limited. However, while they don't know that we have cars as much as they have plates, they do know what fat people looks like ... and they ain't fat but the Chinese are.


The NKPA is basically the Gulf War era Iraqi Army Saddam but there are two differences.It's a WWI Army set up to do a WWI style assualt.


1. The troops in the NKPA are more than willing to die for the reasons mentioned above unlike the Iraqis.That's fine. If they're willing to die, we're willing to kill them.


2. It isn't open desert but woods, mountains and cities.You can fight a maneuver war in any terrain. Inchon and the Pusan Breakout would tell you that.


Due to the factors above taking North Korea would be a bloody mess but a victory for the US in the end.Air Assualt.


However this really doesn't matter at the moment for one reason and that is that North Korea clearly is not going to attack! How do I know this? Because they keep talking about it.But they might do something stupid.

TopHatter
25 Mar 13,, 16:02
DPRK propaganda video...looks like they're intending to refight the '50-'53 war with those infantry charges.
I love the standard-bearer, makes them look like one of Pickett's brigades heading for The Angle.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VQ7NjGeIRw&feature=share&list=UUknqqNd3-joIjWzf1Jn4oVQ

erik
25 Mar 13,, 17:15
I was just about to post that video. Supposedly in that video, it will be a 3 day war where North Korea takes Seoul, defeats the U.S. military, and takes over 150,000 American citizens as hostage.

Would be an interesting video game.

YellowFever
25 Mar 13,, 17:40
Bitchin' video, man.

Some of the highlights:

First day: over 250, 000 pieces of munition will be launched/shot towards the south on the first day.

Second day: Some 4000 tanks and 3000 troop carriers will launch a massive strike, and the US and ROK airforces can not do anything about it because they will be swept out of the sky because of the superiority of the DPRK aam missiles. . (And yes, it did mention 150, 000 American soldiers becoming POWs)

Third day: People of Seoul will be dejected and starving and will be ready to give up.

Conclusion: Pentagon computer simulations have shown the same thing but they are too scared to release the results of the excercise.

Officer of Engineers
25 Mar 13,, 17:44
Funny thing is that there are North Korean Officers who actually believes this crap ... and a whole bunch of South Korean university students.

YellowFever
25 Mar 13,, 17:48
Correction: 250, 000 arty shells will be shot and 1000 missiles will be launched.

And 150, 000 Americans citizens and soldiers will be captured....lol

YellowFever
25 Mar 13,, 17:52
".. and a whole bunch of South Korean university students"

Tell me a about it, Col....

Some of the campuses in SK makes Berkley look like a conservative college...

TopHatter
25 Mar 13,, 17:55
Correction: 250, 000 arty shells will be shot and 1000 missiles will be launched.

And 150, 000 Americans citizens and soldiers will be captured....lol

Yellow, what were they saying during the pictures of the US CVN's? Was that the "Pentagon computer simulations" part?

I was hoping to hear the narrator say " Inmin'gun" a few more times...I don't think he did it enough :redface:


Third day: People of Seoul will be dejected and starving and will be ready to give up.
Not hard for the NK script-writer to imagine...all he'd have to do is look out his window :(

erik
25 Mar 13,, 17:58
Funny thing is that there are North Korean Officers who actually believes this crap ... and a whole bunch of South Korean university students.

As a university student myself in the U.S., the things I hear coming from other students is just mind boggling.

YellowFever
25 Mar 13,, 18:02
Just the way I wrote it.

The part about the 250, 000 shells and 150, 000 prisoners are in the first third of the video ( the first day) .

The scenes with the carrier was just propaganda speech ("of course the Americans Will send their navy but those ships will be simultaneously destroyed") and the pentagon study was the last 20 seconds of the video when they showed the picture of the Pentagon.

Parihaka
25 Mar 13,, 20:01
Magnificent!

YellowFever
25 Mar 13,, 20:54
Seems like a propaganda piece more for Western/SK consumption.

The narrator was speaking with a SK accent and the background music was more western (albeit 60's).

If it was for domestic consumption, no way they would have shown a skyline of Seoul.

Mihais
25 Mar 13,, 22:26
If it was for domestic consumption, no way they would have shown a skyline of Seoul.

Dude,you can speak inmingunese and understand their thinking.Are you sure you're not a spy infiltrated among the capitalists ? :biggrin:

Was about to ask you about Seoul,when I saw your last post.It was really too in your face the difference between the magnificence of the oppressor's capital and the abject commie style of Pyongyang.
Thinking of this a bit,even if by some miracle the NKPA could advance South,they'll start having discipline problems very soon.The Red Army had such issues during the war and the Soviet society had similar problems after the war.There was a big contrast even between USSR and the poor Eastern Europe that was 'liberated'.
Marching into a society that has more food for its pets than NK has for its people is way too dangerous.

USSWisconsin
25 Mar 13,, 23:08
I liked the flamethrower tanks, squirting away as they advanced at full speed, driving right into the inferno they just laid down. Perhaps those units could handle taking themselves out. The way they bunched up all those guns and rocket launchers was very impressive, I suspect the ROK forces would have been impressed too, as they targeted them. Maybe they can teleport those towed guns to new positions before the counterbattery fire hits? What stopped all those DMZ minefields from going off as that infantry ran through them? Perhaps they are really just propaganda? Of course SK is going to simply cower in fear as the NK unleashs their "cruel" attacks. Perhaps someone over there will sacrifice themselves, for the good of their country, by standing next to the great leader with a belt of explosives wrapped around them? Hitler had some appearently loyal people who were willing to sacrifice themselves for the good of Germany. Is Kim un completely immune to such situations?

TopHatter
25 Mar 13,, 23:39
The scenes with the carrier was just propaganda speech ("of course the Americans Will send their navy but those ships will be simultaneously destroyed")

I love it..."simultaneously destroyed".

I wonder if the NK's that watch that video will ask:

1. Where are our carriers if we're so damn great?

2. How are the bandit Americans able to build such massive floating airfields in the first place?

Bigfella
25 Mar 13,, 23:46
DPRK propaganda video...looks like they're intending to refight the '50-'53 war with those infantry charges.
I love the standard-bearer, makes them look like one of Pickett's brigades heading for The Angle.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VQ7NjGeIRw&feature=share&list=UUknqqNd3-joIjWzf1Jn4oVQ

The scary thing is that it took several years for the KPA to recover from the filming of the video - chewed up all their fuel allocations & spare ammo. :Dancing-Banana:

....but whiskey was right, flamethrower tanks are cool. I imagine the capitalist running dogs will turn tail at first sight.

Bigfella
25 Mar 13,, 23:47
Bitchin' video, man.

Some of the highlights:

First day: over 250, 000 pieces of munition will be launched/shot towards the south on the first day.

Second day: Some 4000 tanks and 3000 troop carriers will launch a massive strike, and the US and ROK airforces can not do anything about it because they will be swept out of the sky because of the superiority of the DPRK aam missiles. . (And yes, it did mention 150, 000 American soldiers becoming POWs)

Third day: People of Seoul will be dejected and starving and will be ready to give up.

Conclusion: Pentagon computer simulations have shown the same thing but they are too scared to release the results of the excercise.

Well....I'm convinced!

Pedicabby
26 Mar 13,, 00:10
Have you guys seen the new Red Dawn yet? The Norks are on the way!

Bigfella
26 Mar 13,, 00:51
Have you guys seen the new Red Dawn yet? The Norks are on the way!

I suspect the DPRK thinks the film is actually an accurate depiction of its strength!

zraver
26 Mar 13,, 01:15
I liked the flamethrower tanks, squirting away as they advanced at full speed, driving right into the inferno they just laid down. Perhaps those units could handle taking themselves out. The way they bunched up all those guns and rocket launchers was very impressive, I suspect the ROK forces would have been impressed too, as they targeted them. Maybe they can teleport those towed guns to new positions before the counterbattery fire hits? What stopped all those DMZ minefields from going off as that infantry ran through them? Perhaps they are really just propaganda? Of course SK is going to simply cower in fear as the NK unleashs their "cruel" attacks. Perhaps someone over there will sacrifice themselves, for the good of their country, by standing next to the great leader with a belt of explosives wrapped around them? Hitler had some appearently loyal people who were willing to sacrifice themselves for the good of Germany. Is Kim un completely immune to such situations?

Jay, its natural to compress unit spacings for propaganda films, we do it too.

Albany Rifles
26 Mar 13,, 02:32
I like flamethrower tanks too. They look so 1944 in my gun sights!

Blademaster
26 Mar 13,, 05:13
How is the DRPK video any different from Independence Day or Battleship?

Officer of Engineers
26 Mar 13,, 05:17
We lost 6 hours of our lives that we never get back from those movies. We only lost 6 minutes with this vid.

Bigfella
26 Mar 13,, 09:10
I like flamethrower tanks too. They look so 1944 in my gun sights!

They also make a bigger 'boom'.

erik
28 Mar 13,, 14:36
B-2's sent to perform a mission over South Korea.



U.S. B-2 bombers conduct extended deterrence mission to the Republic of Korea

YONGSAN GARRISON, Seoul – Demonstrating the commitment of the United States and its capability to defend the Republic of Korea and to provide extended deterrence to our allies in the Asia-Pacific region, U.S. Strategic Command sent two B-2 Spirit bombers for a long-duration, round-trip training mission from Whiteman Air Force Base, Mo., to the Republic of Korea March 28 as part of the ongoing bilateral Foal Eagle training exercise.

This mission by two B-2 Spirit bombers assigned to 509th Bomb Wing, which demonstrates the United States’ ability to conduct long range, precision strikes quickly and at will, involved flying more than 6,500 miles to the Korean Peninsula, dropping inert munitions on the Jik Do Range, and returning to the continental U.S. in a single, continuous mission.

The United States is steadfast in its alliance commitment to the defense of the Republic of Korea, to deterring aggression, and to ensuring peace and stability in the region. The B-2 bomber is an important element of America's enduring and robust extended deterrence capability in the Asia-Pacific region.

United States Forces Korea | U.S. B-2 bombers conduct extended deterrence mission to the Republic of Korea (http://www.usfk.mil/usfk/Article.aspx?ID=1041)

TopHatter
28 Mar 13,, 21:28
How is the DRPK video any different from Independence Day or Battleship?

Really? :frown:

ID4 and Battleship:

1. Entirely fictional and advertised as such
2. Have aliens from outer space as the "villain"
3. Show multiple instances of the "good guys" getting beaten to a pulp by the "bad guys"

And that's just off the top of my head.

S2
29 Mar 13,, 03:44
Jeez, hub-to-hub towed arty.

Somewhere there's a retired Red Army arty commander watching this with a half-empty bottle of vodka and smiling to himself about the good ol' days.

Bigfella
29 Mar 13,, 03:55
Jeez, hub-to-hub towed arty.

Somewhere there's a retired Red Army arty commander watching this with a half-empty bottle of vodka and smiling to himself about the good ol' days.

It was all a bit 'Battle of Berlin' wasn't it? I'm sure that the artillery view of paradise looks a bit like that. :biggrin:

I'm also betting somewhere there is an ROKAF or USAF squadron commader praying to his god that the KPA actually deploy like that. The phrase 'target rich environment' leaps to mind.

Stitch
29 Mar 13,, 04:46
I'm also betting somewhere there is an ROKAF or USAF squadron commader praying to his god that the KPA actually deploy like that. The phrase 'target rich environment' leaps to mind.

Yeah, just salvo your AIM-120D's and see what happens . . .

Chogy
29 Mar 13,, 17:28
DPRK propaganda video...looks like they're intending to refight the '50-'53 war with those infantry charges.
I love the standard-bearer, makes them look like one of Pickett's brigades heading for The Angle.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VQ7NjGeIRw&feature=share&list=UUknqqNd3-joIjWzf1Jn4oVQ

Lacking air superiority or any significant air defense, these massive formations will be interdicted loooooong before they get to where they are needed.

They will be sensed from space, from the air, from ELINT. And they will be paid a visit from the air that will make the Highway of Death look like an Oklahoma traffic stop.

Albany Rifles
29 Mar 13,, 21:40
Jeez, hub-to-hub towed arty.

Somewhere there's a retired Red Army arty commander watching this with a half-empty bottle of vodka and smiling to himself about the good ol' days.

And probably the biggest erection he has ever had in his life!


Meanwhile there an MLRS battery commander smiles and takes a swig of coffee from his mug just before he gives the command to fire.

Bigfella
30 Mar 13,, 00:29
And probably the biggest erection he has ever had in his life!


Meanwhile there an MLRS battery commander smiles and takes a swig of coffee from his mug just before he gives the command to fire.

Sounds like Chogy wants to spoil your fun & hit them before they can line up all nice - typical pilot! :biggrin:

Stitch
30 Mar 13,, 00:44
Yeah, just salvo your AIM-120D's and see what happens . . .

Oops! Wrong ordnance . . . I should've said CBU-105 WCMD's.

Dago
30 Mar 13,, 08:22
Oops! Wrong ordnance . . . I should've said CBU-105 WCMD's.

What about those MLRS batteries South Korea possesses? Those M26 rockets landing nearby with 644 M77's munitions? 12 Rockets on one M270, that is about 7,728 cluster munitions. Steel rain? Than you also have SADARM rounds, that are smart munitions that search for armor. The submunitions can be used in rockets as well. South Korea has 58 of these M270. They also have the MGM-140 Army Tactical Missile System. Yet most of these are quite ineffective for hardened sites. You need larger payload like larger smart bombs. And we'll, that is alot of targeting of hard sites. More targets than Iraq.

Albany Rifles
30 Mar 13,, 14:38
Dago, a lot of those can and would be hit by TLAMs from USN and JNSDF ships as well as SLAMs, etc. Oh and the 155mm Excalibur GPS round will also defeat a lot of bunkers.

But so will the ROK engineers as they attack northward.

Bigfella
30 Mar 13,, 14:56
Dago, a lot of those can and would be hit by TLAMs from USN and JNSDF ships as well as SLAMs, etc. Oh and the 155mm Excalibur GPS round will also defeat a lot of bunkers.

But so will the ROK engineers as they attack northward.

Clearly one of the missions of ROK artillery & other ROK/US assets will be to keep the guns & missiles in their holes until the ground forces arrive. If you can't stick your head out of your hardened shelter to shoot that achieves the same immediate goal as killing you. Obviously it isn't going to be possible to get every tube & missile, but a lot can be suppressed without immediately taking them out

Officer of Engineers
30 Mar 13,, 16:31
How funny it is that people are still under the illusion that North Korea has a chance in hell of conquering the south ... but then, there are still South Korean university students who wants the North to conquer the South.

chanjyj
30 Mar 13,, 17:36
Clearly one of the missions of ROK artillery & other ROK/US assets will be to keep the guns & missiles in their holes until the ground forces arrive. If you can't stick your head out of your hardened shelter to shoot that achieves the same immediate goal as killing you. Obviously it isn't going to be possible to get every tube & missile, but a lot can be suppressed without immediately taking them out

In this scenario they would have to strike first. Assuming that is not the case, I don't see how Seoul can be protected adequately.

Skywatcher
30 Mar 13,, 17:46
How funny it is that people are still under the illusion that North Korea has a chance in hell of conquering the south ... but then, there are still South Korean university students who wants the North to conquer the South.

Well, you're always going to have crazy idiots, like people who think Taiwan should unify with Japan, the UK should conquer Ireland as a first step in restoring the British Empire, Texas should secede, and that sort of garden variety nuthouse-ness. The question is, do the crazies have any influence?

Officer of Engineers
30 Mar 13,, 18:12
Well, you're always going to have crazy idiots, like people who think Taiwan should unify with Japan, the UK should conquer Ireland as a first step in restoring the British Empire, Texas should secede, and that sort of garden variety nuthouse-ness. The question is, do the crazies have any influence?Yeah, Kim Jong Un

Doktor
30 Mar 13,, 19:59
Is there any chance his generals to overthrow him?

Officer of Engineers
30 Mar 13,, 20:07
Is there any chance his generals to overthrow him?Three Generals his father put in place to help guide him has disappeared from the face of the earth.

Blademaster
30 Mar 13,, 20:29
Three Generals his father put in place to help guide him has disappeared from the face of the earth.

Sounds like Kim Jong Un is trying to keep the other generals who made those generals disappear from doing the same thing to him. The ironic thing is that he is helping those people to put him away because the more bellicose he talks the more pressure China will put on those people and once he makes a mistake, he is gone. The best way to overthrow a dictator or tyrant is to first target his lieutenants or able advisers. Once the dictator or tyrant is left without competent advisors, he has nobody to save him from his mistakes.

citanon
31 Mar 13,, 00:05
Sounds like Kim Jong Un is trying to keep the other generals who made those generals disappear from doing the same thing to him. The ironic thing is that he is helping those people to put him away because the more bellicose he talks the more pressure China will put on those people and once he makes a mistake, he is gone. The best way to overthrow a dictator or tyrant is to first target his lieutenants or able advisers. Once the dictator or tyrant is left without competent advisers, he has nobody to save him from his mistakes.

I'm not sure if it's the other generals that made the three disappear, or Kim himself. Either way something something has gone awry. Maybe the recent troubles could help keep the army occupied with defending against the US instead of removing Kim the fatter.

YellowFever
31 Mar 13,, 00:29
Three Generals his father put in place to help guide him has disappeared from the face of the earth.

Colonel, are these the generals you're talking about?





2012-12-16 17:15

Disappearance of generals


By Andrei Lankov

The picture is still probably fresh in our readers’ memory: Pyongyang, December 2011. A large black hearse with the coffin of the recently departed Marshall Kim Jong-il slowly moves through the streets of the North Korean capital. Eight people are walking alongside side it ― four uniformed military commanders on the left and four top civilian bureaucrats on the right, with Kim Jong-un (yet to be seen wearing a military uniform) at the head of the civilian line.

Well what has happened to these eight people over the last year? Their fate is quite remarkable: all the military officers have lost their positions, while all the civilians remain in place. This is important, not least because one of the few changes which could be observed in North Korea over the last year was a slow, but significant shift of power away from the military and back to the party-state.

Let’s have a close look at the generals who held the highest military positions in the land as of late last year. Only one of them is known to be alive, his standing has diminished dramatically. His name is Kim Yong-chun, at the time of the funeral he was the first deputy defence minister ― second-in-command of the North Korean military. As one would expect, he was placed second in the line of four generals next to the hearse.

Kim Yong Chun lost his job in April ― allegedly because of bad health. He has not disappeared from public view, though he is now responsible for civil defence nationwide. This is not a complete disgrace for the man, but is clearly nonetheless a significant demotion.

The other three have fared much worse. At the funeral, the most prominent role was reserved for Ri Yong-ho, then chief of North Korea’s general staff. On July 17, the North Korean public learnt that a special Politburo session relieved Ri of his troublesome duties. Nothing has been heard about him since then _ but if persistent rumours are to be believed his name is spoken of most unfavourably behind the scenes and in indoctrination sessions. It is not impossible that the old general is now under arrest, and it is all but certain that he has completely fallen from grace.

The third among the four generals was Kim Chong-kak, who at the time of the funeral was the first deputy head of the Korean People’s Army (KPA) General Political Office. His job was in essence to be the top liaison between the party and military. He was briefly promoted in April, but in November he also lost his position and has not been seen since.

The last man is U Tong-chik, the first deputy minister of state security ― i.e. the real head of North Korea’s secret police, intelligence and counterespionage service (quite a scary job, I would say). U was also fired in April and since then nothing has been heard about him.

We have witnessed the sudden dismissal of all four people who were just one year ago publically presented as the top military leaders of the country. This is a big deal, but purges of the military itself have gone much further than just the apex of its hierarchy. Many North Korean generals of lesser standing, including corps commanders, have also been dismissed. It also seems that a few weeks ago, North Korea acquired a new minister of defence, Gen. Kim Kyok-sik, whose appointment has not been made public so far.

So in spite of all the lip-service paid to the ''military-first” policy, the military has been marginalised and the centre stage has come to be dominated by lifelong party functionaries and technocrats. Kim Jong-un’s uncle, Jang Seong-thaek, seems to be the most influential member of this emerging group. Predictably, he also participated in the funeral, he walked just behind Kim Jong-un himself.

People often present these purges as the struggle between moderate civilians and hard-line generals. There is little doubt that across the globe, the military tends to gravitate towards hard-line policies. Generals often believe that in this world there are few problems which cannot be solved by an artillery barrage or, better still, a precision missile strike. Nonetheless, we cannot know whether this is the case in North Korea. We know precious little about the actual political views, inclinations, and values of North Korea’s top officials ― military and civilian alike.

So it is therefore possible that what we see is merely a power struggle between two interest groups who differ little in their actual approach to political questions. Sometimes a power struggle is just a struggle for power. At any rate, the removal of top military commanders has yet to have any visible impact on North Korean government policy.

Professor Andrei Lankov was born in St. Petersburg, Russia, and now teaches at Kookmin University in Seoul. You can reach him at anlankov@yahoo.com.

Officer of Engineers
31 Mar 13,, 00:42
Yes.

lemontree
01 Apr 13,, 09:02
I have a funny feeling that this whole North Korean war drum beat is a diversion strategy by China.
We should see something happen in another part of the world rather soon enough.

Reason: NK cannot be so dumb to threaten the south and the US with the crap they have.
China feeds and arms them, hence NK will do what China commands.

Something major will happen in another part of the globe where Chinese interests matter.

Tennetc
01 Apr 13,, 09:30
I have a funny feeling that this whole North Korean war drum beat is a diversion strategy by China.
We should see something happen in another part of the world rather soon enough.

Reason: NK cannot be so dumb to threaten the south and the US with the crap they have.
China feeds and arms them, hence NK will do what China commands.

Something major will happen in another part of the globe where Chinese interests matter.

Hi Lemontree,

I don't think so. You are giving too much credit to the Chinese Gov's ability and infuence in foreign land

Bigfella
01 Apr 13,, 10:19
Hi Lemontree,

I don't think so. You are giving too much credit to the Chinese Gov's ability and infuence in foreign land

...and underestimating how dumb the DPRK leadership is. They just got their major ally to cut off their monthly oil supply. Pretty dumb. North Korea is doing what it so often does - trying to bluster its way into getting something. The threats are hollow. The time to worry is not when they are blustering, but when they are quietly building up.

Tennetc
01 Apr 13,, 15:38
wow, first B2s, now F22s, what do you guys think? Is this to fight against the 20-30 mig-29s? A bit of an overkill.Matbe to escort the B-2s?

North Korea is now becoming a real headach for china...the US is now using the NK crisis to secure and reenforce her military bases around china and that is not good for us(china).The b2s and f22s will not be fighting j10s and j11s anytime soon, but this symbolic deployment will really force the chinese gov to think hard before doing anything that may harm the interest of US allies, which will mean some of china's interest will need to be put aside to avoid a war( due to OOE's deterent is not war fighting thinking, i am still trying to find more info in this thinking, but not much info in the internet about this).

In other words, NK's reckless ways is now directly harming china, question is what is the CCP leadership going to do about it?


U.S. F-22 stealth jets join South Korea drills amid saber-rattling (http://news.yahoo.com/u-f-22-stealth-jets-join-south-korea-220123588.html;_ylt=AwrNUbLJl1lRCHkAOGHQtDMD)


The United States sent F-22 stealth fighter jets to South Korea on Sunday to join military drills aimed at underscoring the U.S. commitment to defend Seoul in the face of an intensifying campaign of threats from North Korea.

TopHatter
01 Apr 13,, 17:13
wow, first B2s, now F22s, what do you guys think? Is this to fight against the 20-30 mig-29s? A bit of an overkill.Matbe to escort the B-2s?

It's simply a friendly reminder to Kim and his gang that their threats are an absolute joke, their military is limited to YouTube propaganda videos and their prospects for survival in wartime are exactly zero.

Red Team
01 Apr 13,, 17:24
It's simply a friendly reminder to Kim and his gang that their threats are an absolute joke, their military is limited to YouTube propaganda videos and their prospects for survival in wartime are exactly zero.

To be fair, their production values are pretty decent for a deluded and mentally deficient Stalinist regime. :biggrin: