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bigross86
03 Mar 13,, 10:47
We all know that at the Battle of Agincourt Henry V whupped the French and tore them a new arsehole in a situation that was both strategically disadvantageous and until Henry V changed the battleground, tactically as well. Henry V's army was strung out, low on logistics and resources, sick, and in horrible positioning. All the French had to do was wait and eventually Henry V would have capitulated on his own. Instead, Henry V had his army advance upon the French, which left them (the British) highly vulnerable for a while in the time it took them to move camps, replant the stakes, etc... but that put them within range of the Welsh longbow archers, who immediately started taking their toll on the French forces, goading the French army into attacking under terrain and tactical conditions that were highly unfavorable (many French knights were nowhere even near the main body of the French army, having decided to go for pleasure rides, knowing "for a fact" the British would never attack).

So here's the question: What would happen if the French had either decided to A) Keep waiting Henry V out or B) Attack while Henry V's army was advancing? A defeat here would echo down through the centuries. It would change the entire face of the Hundred Years War, possibly leading it to ending much earlier, and would also nix Henry V marrying a French princess and taking over the French throne. Further on, this strike to morale and defeat might have military repercussions which might even be felt all the way on to Napoleonic times, since the English loss here would lead to connected French strengthening. The monarchy might have been strong enough to prevent or withstand the French Revolution, and there might not have ever been a need for Napoleon to even grab the reins of power. As another aside, there might have been no reason for Joan of Arc to start hearing voices and strengthening to kick les Anglais out, they already would have been gone.

So what do you think? Is all the stuff I wrote here utter trite, or could a Henry V loss at Agincourt possibly lead to the existence of a modern French monarchy?

Stitch
04 Mar 13,, 01:11
Entirely possible; the English had already won major victories at Crecy and Poitiers, but Agincourt could've been a major turning point for the French, IF they had won. I don't think it would've been a game-changer, it just would've meant the Hundred-Years War ended 35 years earlier.

astralis
04 Mar 13,, 14:38
I don't think it would've been a game-changer, it just would've meant the Hundred-Years War ended 35 years earlier.

pretty much. the second-order effects are hard to measure; perhaps less centralization of the french monarchy because there's less of a pressing english threat? past the longbow, the real reason why the english did so well against the french was because the french was considerably more feudal than the english, whom had the beginnings of centralized organization, bureaucracy, and a directive monarchy.

if henry V dies, something akin to the War of the Roses happens in England a lot earlier. wouldn't be pretty.

ironically if henry V won even more conclusively in his war, we'd all be speaking french right now.

BR,


Further on, this strike to morale and defeat might have military repercussions which might even be felt all the way on to Napoleonic times, since the English loss here would lead to connected French strengthening. The monarchy might have been strong enough to prevent or withstand the French Revolution, and there might not have ever been a need for Napoleon to even grab the reins of power. As another aside, there might have been no reason for Joan of Arc to start hearing voices and strengthening to kick les Anglais out, they already would have been gone.


well, with all the butterfly wings flapping there certainly wouldn't be a french revolution or napoleon, at least not as we know it.

zraver
04 Mar 13,, 22:06
pretty much. the second-order effects are hard to measure; perhaps less centralization of the french monarchy because there's less of a pressing english threat? past the longbow, the real reason why the english did so well against the french was because the french was considerably more feudal than the english, whom had the beginnings of centralized organization, bureaucracy, and a directive monarchy.

The major development of what would define England- a parliament of a strong nobility and later representation of the common man was already underway. The wars in France to secure Aquitaine were expensive and forced the English monarchs who were also Norman French nobles to rely increasingly on the backwater kingdom to finance the wars in France thus turning England into a major kingdom.


if henry V dies, something akin to the War of the Roses happens in England a lot earlier. wouldn't be pretty.

Not so sure about that. An early end to the fighting in France with an English defeat may mean Henry V never sires Henry the VI. Or it may mean that he is sired early or into a kingdom whose king has had more time to worry about domestic affairs and thus a secure line of succession.



well, with all the butterfly wings flapping there certainly wouldn't be a french revolution or napoleon, at least not as we know it.

Imagine a stronger monarchy with the advent of the protestant reformation, French claims in Italy, against Spain and on the Holy Roman Empire.

Albany Rifles
05 Mar 13,, 03:47
Yeah, but one of Shakespeare's best speeches would never have been written!!!!

Officer of Engineers
05 Mar 13,, 04:24
Yeah, but one of Shakespeare's best speeches would never have been written!!!!Oh yes, it would have ... in French.

bigross86
05 Mar 13,, 10:32
Yeah, but one of Shakespeare's best speeches would never have been written!!!!

That's the main reason I asked the question, because I just finished reading Henry V and decided to do some historical digging into the battle itself.

Parihaka
05 Mar 13,, 11:39
Je vois que vous se dressent comme des lévriers dans les feuillets, Effort sur le départ. Le jeu se trame: Suivez votre esprit, et sur cette charge Cry 'Dieu pour Harry, l'Angleterre, et Saint-Georges!
Nah, don't think so......

Albany Rifles
05 Mar 13,, 21:01
Oh yes, it would have ... in French.

But it sounds much more bad ass when spoken in English!!!