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  • Home defense munitions

    I posted my intro in the intro forum.
    I looked for non-lethal munitions on the net for 12 guages and all of them seem to be restricted to military and police sales only.
    I am thinking about trading my S&W .45 for a 12 guage for two reasons-

    I can use it for home defense , and also during Shotgun season for deer. Like many have posted on here I like the sound a 12 guage makes when chambering a round. Most intruders will usually take off if they hear that.

    Also, I have a larger selection of rounds from lethal to non-lethal. Personally, I want to avoid having to shoot someone. If I do have to I would prefer to take my chances with some litweight low velocity brass or some heavy grain rubber instead of having someone bleed out in my house.
    Let me have some input on preferred 12 guage ammunition. Also, and this is a completely seperate issue. I have two young kids. My .45 right now is locked in a pistol safe with it's ammo so it is basically useless if there is a break in. How do you guys keep your guns safe from children yet accessible if needed.
    Thanks Chris

  • #2
    Hollowpoint...u die or they do

    Comment


    • #3
      Here’s an article about shotgun home defense ammunition.

      Start with non-lethal loads working lethal while firing from a pump. Rock salt or rubber buckshot first then to bird and buck. IMHO.

      Here are some sources for rubber buckshot.
      Cheaper Than Dirt S&B.
      PMC.
      Fiocchi.

      Step into the bizarre loads from Hi-Vel and Mirage All Purpose Ammo that fall into the exotic range.

      Everyone wants to shoot an intruder in their house and they can’t begin to understand how hard it is to get blood out of the carpet and cleaned up in general. And now that almost everything is a biohazard too, makes it all that much more expensive to hire out clean up. Dave’s household tip for home defense #1: carpet your entire house with heavy gauge plastic drop cloths and waterproof all the walls and ceilings.
      Last edited by ak-dave; 16 Jun 05,, 09:49.
      AK-Dave

      Those who trade liberty for security have none.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by EricTheRed
        Hollowpoint...u die or they do
        Like I said- I have two kids. Drywall probably doesn't do a good job slowing down a 12 gauge hollow point.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by ak-dave
          Here’s an article about shotgun home defense ammunition.

          Start with non-lethal loads working lethal while firing from a pump. Rock salt or rubber buckshot first then to bird and buck. IMHO.

          Here are some sources for rubber buckshot.
          Cheaper Than Dirt S&B.
          PMC.
          Fiocchi.

          Step into the bizarre loads from Hi-Vel and Mirage All Purpose Ammo that fall into the exotic range.

          Everyone wants to shoot an intruder in their house and they can’t begin to understand how hard it is to get blood out of the carpet and cleaned up in general. And now that almost everything is a biohazard too, makes it all that much more expensive to hire out clean up. Dave’s household tip for home defense #1: carpet your entire house with heavy gauge plastic drop cloths and waterproof all the walls and ceilings.
          Thanks for the links!

          Comment


          • #6
            12 gauge 3" magnum #2 shot will not penetrate drywalls and will cause a tremendously destructive wound in your target.

            Why the hell anyone would want a non-lethal munition for a situation of life and death is utterly beyond my comprehension.

            The other guy won't have his weapon loaded with LTL ammo, i assure you.

            Comment


            • #7
              I don't think I would have it loaded with only ltl like AK Dave recommended. If I lived in a bad neighborhood I might have a different outlook on what ammunition I may need.
              There are many reasons I have that I would not want to blow someone's head off in my house. Too many to list actually. If the dude charges me and gets up after being knocked on his ass by an ltl round he will have to survive a harsher round or the butt end of a shotgun.
              Don't forget most of america defends there households well enough with baseball bats. Most people breaking and entering don't want any trouble so they will surrender or flee upon gunpoint. I don't think I could live with myself If I killed a teenager who just wanted my XBOX.
              You have your ideals I have mine.

              Originally posted by M21Sniper
              12 gauge 3" magnum #2 shot will not penetrate drywalls and will cause a tremendously destructive wound in your target.

              Why the hell anyone would want a non-lethal munition for a situation of life and death is utterly beyond my comprehension.

              The other guy won't have his weapon loaded with LTL ammo, i assure you.

              Comment


              • #8
                "I don't think I would have it loaded with only ltl like AK Dave recommended. If I lived in a bad neighborhood I might have a different outlook on what ammunition I may need."

                Why, someone meaning to kill you in your nice neighborhood is a less serious threat? If he's not actively threatening you, than you are not legally justified in shooting him at all. If he is, then your life is on the line, and half-measures are innapropriate in such scenarios.

                "There are many reasons I have that I would not want to blow someone's head off in my house. Too many to list actually."

                Oh, please do.

                "If the dude charges me and gets up after being knocked on his ass by an ltl round he will have to survive a harsher round or the butt end of a shotgun."

                And if he just decides to shoot you from a supine position because you were too stupid to kill him when you had the drop on him?
                Then what?

                Then your wife and kids are alone and defenseless in your home with a murderer. That hardly seems like an ideal situation to me...

                "Don't forget most of america defends there households well enough with baseball bats."

                LOL, oh? Well that's an interesting fantasy. Where ever did you come up with the data to formulate that particular opinion?

                "Most people breaking and entering don't want any trouble so they will surrender or flee upon gunpoint."

                You've conducted scientific surveys to this effect, or are you speaking from your vast personal experience in holding violent criminals at gunpoint?

                The fact is, if a burglar is breaking into an occupied house, he's not very likely to be a mere burgler. Odds are, he has much worse things in mind than stealing your stuff. If theft was his intent, he'd break in when you weren't home.

                "I don't think I could live with myself If I killed a teenager who just wanted my XBOX."

                Guess what....you have NO legal right to shoot someone if you are not in immediate fear for your life, or the lives of those you're legally eligible to protect. Shoot a non-threatening burglar and you're going to jail- regardless of the ammunition you use(and the charge will be attempted murder regardless of said ammo if he lives).

                If you are in fear for your life, or the lives of your loved ones, then LTL ammo is not just innapropriate, but irresponsible as well.

                "You have your ideals I have mine."

                Your ideals are not based on either law or common sense, and for that matter, do not appear to be very well thought out by you.

                You either have the will to kill when threatened with the same, or you don't.

                LTL ammo has no business whatsoever being loaded in a Personal defense firearm. Cops have a legal mandate to use LTL in certain LE scenarios. You, as a citizen....do not.

                How exactly you'll convince a DA or a jury that you were in fear for your life when you were using LTL ammo will be a complication that you just don't need at your trial...but hey, it's your life on the line, not mine.

                My shotgun is loaded with lethal ammo, and so are my sidearms. When my life is threatened, i am not the sort to respond with anything other than immediate and lethal force. Interestingly enough, cops are trained the same way. A cop does not reach for his tazer when faced with the threat of imminent death or grave bodily harm(which btw is the legal standard for justifiable homocide), he reaches for his firearm. A firearm loaded with lethal ammunition.
                Last edited by Bill; 16 Jun 05,, 17:12.

                Comment


                • #9
                  "Why, someone meaning to kill you in your nice neighborhood is a less serious threat? If he's not actively threatening you, than you are not legally justified in shooting him at all. If he is, then your life is on the line, and half-measures are innapropriate in such scenarios."

                  No, they are no less a threat, but crime rates and their degree of violence are drastically lower than an inner city neighborhood ( no I don't have any facts to back that up, just my opinion) . I agree if he's not threatening me he shouldn't be shot but there are certain situations which if visibility is low you can't tell if he has a gun in his hand or not. I would rather knock him down than kill him. Yes I know I will probably get sued. I'll take that chance.



                  "And if he just decides to shoot you from a supine position because you were too stupid to kill him when you had the drop on him?
                  Then what?"

                  First of all I don't know what a supine position is. Secondly, let's be realistic. My gun will be unloaded since I have kids. I live in a two story, if I get it loaded in time before he makes it upstairs I will be in a dark room where i will have the advantage of sight. If someone comes to my second floor in the middle of the night I will know he means business and will most likely put 2 rounds in him anyways when I realize he is a threat. The second round will be deadly.





                  "LOL, oh? Well that's an interesting fantasy. Where ever did you come up with the data to formulate that particular opinion?"

                  35-36% of American households have a gun. Since baseball is America's past time I assume more people have bats. Whether or not they use them when an intruder in a supine position breaks in and starts unloading on them is beyond me.


                  "You've conducted scientific surveys to this effect, or are you speaking from your vast personal experience in holding violent criminals at gunpoint?"

                  No I didn't do any surveys but I pulled this up pretty quick- There were an estimated 503,481 incidents in which the armed householder did see the burglar, [FN34] and 497,646 incidents in which the burglar was scared away by the firearm. [FN35] In other words, half a million times every year, burglars were likely forced to flee a home because they encountered an armed victim.


                  "You either have the will to kill when threatened with the same, or you don't."

                  Judging by your username I gather your trained in the military as a Sniper or it's what your persuing. You also speak at a higher level of training than I according to tactics and defense. I have been shooting since I was eight or 9 and hunting since I was 10. I spent many weekends at the rifle range with my father recording data with different loads, weather, blah blah blah, so don't talk down to me and say LTL ammo has no business being loaded in a gun. I can make that decision myself.



                  "How exactly you'll convince a DA or a jury that you were in fear for your life when you were using LTL ammo will be a complication that you just don't need at your trial...but hey, it's your life on the line, not mine."

                  I think it may be easier than trying to get out of a murder charge if you can't prove he was threatening you!

                  My shotgun is loaded with lethal ammo, and so are my sidearms. When my life is threatened, i am not the sort to respond with anything other than immediate and lethal force. Interestingly enough, cops are trained the same way. A cop does not reach for his tazer when faced with the threat of imminent death or grave bodily harm(which btw is the legal standard for justifiable homocide), he reaches for his firearm. A firearm loaded with lethal ammunition.

                  Good for you!


                  In all seriousness I wanted to avoid getting into a heated topic about this. If you are in the military- Bless you. I stand behind you and appreciate my freedom because of your efforts.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I just hate to see anyone put themselves in a bad position...and other people will read this thread in the months ahead.

                    I wanted to lay out the anti-LTL argument in an indepth fashion so that people would at least have the information to make a reasoned decision.

                    You are an American, you can load your gun with whatever you want. I just wanted to make sure you had thought it out because to me it's not a very wise decision.

                    Supine is a laying position, where you're laying on your back...as one would be after having been knocked over with a LTL beanbag.

                    I was a US Army infantry sniper during the Cold War. Thank you for the kind words regardless, those types of comments mean a lot to the guys that are still in(and there are a lot of them here at this board).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      ANytime, and I will rethink using LTL rounds.

                      Originally posted by M21Sniper
                      I just hate to see anyone put themselves in a bad position...and other people will read this thread in the months ahead.

                      I wanted to lay out the anti-LTL argument in an indepth fashion so that people would at least have the information to make a reasoned decision.

                      You are an American, you can load your gun with whatever you want. I just wanted to make sure you had thought it out because to me it's not a very wise decision.

                      Supine is a laying position, where you're laying on your back...as one would be after having been knocked over with a LTL beanbag.

                      I was a US Army infantry sniper during the Cold War. Thank you for the kind words regardless, those types of comments mean a lot to the guys that are still in(and there are a lot of them here at this board).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I don't think a 12-gauge would be the best gun for home defense, and you can easily get a break-action rifle of almost any caliber for $169. I mean sub-MOA accurate, with a scope mount on it.

                        If you care about your kids' safety with your handgun (which is great, I hate irresponsible parents) while keeping it handy, do this: Show your kids exactly where you keep this gun, but don't keep them curious - Take them to a range and fire the gun at something so that you can show them how dangerous and powerful it is. Answer all their questions, tell them how it works, etc. Just make sure they aren't curious about it. 99% of all accidental child deaths from handguns are because the kid is curious on how it works, and exactly what it is. Don't let them do that, and you and your kids will be safe.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I would never do all LTL. I believe in giving them a chance to leave or surrender before it gets nasty. My first shot would be LTL (rubber buck) and progressing to solid shot. When I was using a S&W 459 it was loaded to start with two Glaser’s, six JHP and remainder FMJ. Figured if it when on that long I would need the penetration of FMJ.
                          AK-Dave

                          Those who trade liberty for security have none.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I doubt you'd have gotten past the two glasers, lol.

                            They're pretty friggin' nasty rounds, in any caliber.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 53 Ford
                              Like I said- I have two kids. Drywall probably doesn't do a good job slowing down a 12 gauge hollow point.
                              Oh ur useing a shotgun next time I should read the post

                              Well if you use a pistol get a hollowpoint. And if you hit the target it wont hit the drywall ;)
                              Last edited by EricTheRed; 17 Jun 05,, 09:02.

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