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View Full Version : How India mistreats Kashmir



troung
19 Nov 12,, 02:46
How India mistreats Kashmir
How India mistreats Kashmir – Global Public Square - CNN.com Blogs (http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/15/how-india-mistreats-kashmir/)
By Kapil Komireddi, Special to CNN

Editor’s note: Kapil Komireddi is an Indian journalist. He has written from South Asia, Eastern Europe, and the Middle East. The views expressed are his own.

Returning home from a visit to Pakistan in 2009, I was invited to have tea with one of the Indian army officials stationed on the international border. Inside his office, I was introduced to another traveler, a middle-aged Kashmiri man who was also on his way back from Pakistan. The three of us spent the next two hours talking about Pakistan. I spoke fondly of Lahore, but the Kashmiri was full of scorn.

“Take my word on this, sir: Pakistan will break apart,” he told the officer. “They are all starving over there.” Later that day, on our way to Delhi, the Kashmiri spoke with great feeling about his friends in Pakistan and the wedding he’d just attended there. He had put on a performance for the officer, demonstrated his commitment to India by eagerly ratifying the most common Indian prejudices about Pakistan. It was a practiced effort. “I am happy in India,” he later told me. “But our loyalty is always questioned.”

People in abusive relationships must adopt such displays of intense loyalty, and Kashmiris have been in an abusive relationship with the Indian state for more than two decades. What’s striking, particularly in a country that takes so much pride in its democracy, is the refusal of a large number of Indians even to acknowledge this reality. India’s much-revered public intellectuals and its voluble news media maintain a near total silence on the subject. Insulated from any serious debate on New Delhi’s conduct in Kashmir, many Indians fall back on old shibboleths to make sense of what is happening there. In these uncomplicated narratives, Kashmiri Muslims who speak up against New Delhi are naturally Pakistan-sponsored jihadis; Indian armed forces are incapable of wrongdoing; and Kashmir, without exception, is an “integral part” of India.

It’s a belief system that asserts India’s ownership of Kashmir by effectively disenfranchising Kashmiris. Kashmiris are demonized as fifth columnists and denied the treatment extended to “fellow citizens” in other parts of the country. But they are expected, in all circumstances, to pledge constant allegiance to India.

This explains why even the most benign reproof of New Delhi by Kashmiris can prompt so many Indians to erupt with self-righteous indignation. This happened on Monday, when Mustafa Kamal, a senior leader of Jammu & Kashmir’s ruling National Conference Party, upbraided New Delhi for not bringing down troop levels in Kashmir. The Indian Army continues to function under the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) in Kashmir. The AFSPA is one of the cruelest pieces of legislation on India’s statue books. It provides immunity from prosecution to the troops operating in Kashmir and other restive regions of the country.

India advertises itself to the planet as the world’s largest democracy, a nation of laws, but consider the plight of the Kashmiris who are persecuted on the mere presumption of being enemies of Indian democracy – and then denied the legal remedies of democratic India to challenge that premise. The Indian government has invoked the AFSPA in more than 40 instances to prevent soldiers from being prosecuted for crimes ranging from torture and murder to rape.

None of this has produced any public outcry in India – unlike Kamal’s remarks. Speaking to a gathering of his party workers, Kamal bemoaned, somewhat idealistically, India’s refusal to sign a “no-war” treaty with Pakistan, before saying, as part of a much larger conversation about resolving the Kashmir crisis, that “I feel our enemy is our own country, not Pakistan.” This was enough to sound the jingoist tocsins across India. Times Now, the broadcasting arm of the Times of India and India’s answer to Fox News, almost exploded with nationalist rage. “Can Mustafa Kamal get away by calling India the enemy and Pakistan the friend?” asked one of the channel’s anchors. The Times of India published stories accusing Kamal of describing India as an enemy.

It’s clear from Kamal’s statement that he acknowledged India as “our country” and, as a citizen, placed the burden of responsibility for Kashmir on New Delhi rather than Islamabad. But the effort to portray him as a separatist only intensified. Kamal appeared this week on Times Now’s flagship show to clarify his position. But the host, Arnab Goswami, a blowhard whose act combines the buffoonery of Glenn Beck with the belligerence of Mark Levin, cut him off. “Is India not your country?” he shouted. It was an absurd and humiliating inquisition. I don’t know if Kamal ever harbored separatist sentiments. But if he comes out in favor of Kashmir’s secession tomorrow, nobody should be surprised.

Contrast this “controversy” with the arid reaction to the discovery just last year of unmarked graves containing more than 2,000 bodies in Kashmir. There were no angry newscasters demanding answers from the Indian government. Extraordinarily, a discovery of such magnitude, instead of waking us to the brutality of the AFSPA, was cast as evidence of India’s redeeming features, a cause for self-congratulation: it was a governmental body that unearthed the graves, after all. Instead of questioning a policy that so randomly distributed death among Kashmiris, India celebrated its capacity for self-monitoring.

The novelist Amit Chaudhuri once wrote that “Indians don’t know how to fashion eloquence out of a sense of being wronged or having wronged, at least not without the unmistakable timbre of self-congratulation.” This is primarily because we ”have never really known what it means to inhabit a morally uneasy position.” The hysterical reaction to Kamal is a measure of Indian society’s sense of its own unimpeachable righteousness, and its imperviousness to the appeals of those seeking the restitution of their dignity.

Bloodshed has ebbed in Kashmir and something like peace is returning to the valley, yet closure will not come unless there is repentance on the part of those who claim Kashmiris as their “fellow citizens” but withhold from them the privileges of citizenship.

Kapil Komireddi can be reached at komireddi@aol.com

Tronic
19 Nov 12,, 06:02
It's true, and Kashmir isn't a special case. The states of Manipur, Assam, Mizoram, Nagaland, Meghalaya, Tripura and Arunachal Pradesh have lived under AFSPA far longer than the Kashmiris. As for the attitudes, a lot of Indians in the hinterland have twisted notions of what India actually is. They feel entitled to the land without giving a hoot about the sentiments of the people living on that land. Hell, I'm an anti-India Khalistani secessionist to a section of Indian members on another forum. :biggrin: Don't know how to change these attitudes. Though it doesn't really matter much back home since each state tends to do it's own thing, except ofcourse when the central government's imposed laws come into the picture, such as the AFSPA. Finding a mechanism to resolve those issues is still allusive.

ambidex
19 Nov 12,, 10:03
^ as long as they do not pick up the gun, the land is very their own and they are free to do all the politico-social nonsense they want to do. If you can find me an exception without gun in use and mistreatment of Union (AFSPA) together I would thank your above post. There is consensus amongst middle class Indians and unsaid mandate given to Union of India to handle anyone with Iron gloves whosoever pick up the gun.

Double Edge
19 Nov 12,, 16:42
What’s striking, particularly in a country that takes so much pride in its democracy, is the refusal of a large number of Indians even to acknowledge this reality. India’s much-revered public intellectuals and its voluble news media maintain a near total silence on the subject. Insulated from any serious debate on New Delhi’s conduct in Kashmir, many Indians fall back on old shibboleths to make sense of what is happening there.
Because AFSPA prevents any reporting from the area. Its the same with the NE, another black area.


The Indian Army continues to function under the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) in Kashmir. The AFSPA is one of the cruelest pieces of legislation on India’s statue books. It provides immunity from prosecution to the troops operating in Kashmir and other restive regions of the country.
So here is the payload, a diatribe against AFSPA. Why hasn't this reporter interviewed any army spokespeople and asked them their opinion on whether they are confident as yet whether AFSPA can be removed.


This was enough to sound the jingoist tocsins across India. Times Now, the broadcasting arm of the Times of India and India’s answer to Fox News, almost exploded with nationalist rage.
Heh, not only Times NOW but every private news channel in India has to follow the FOX model, that is to say build up their bottom line without any obligation to inform their viewers.


“Can Mustafa Kamal get away by calling India the enemy and Pakistan the friend?” asked one of the channel’s anchors. The Times of India published stories accusing Kamal of describing India as an enemy.
Lol, that must be Arnab.


It’s clear from Kamal’s statement that he acknowledged India as “our country” and, as a citizen, placed the burden of responsibility for Kashmir on New Delhi rather than Islamabad. But the effort to portray him as a separatist only intensified. Kamal appeared this week on Times Now’s flagship show to clarify his position. But the host, Arnab Goswami, a blowhard whose act combines the buffoonery of Glenn Beck with the belligerence of Mark Levin, cut him off. “Is India not your country?” he shouted. It was an absurd and humiliating inquisition. I don’t know if Kamal ever harbored separatist sentiments. But if he comes out in favor of Kashmir’s secession tomorrow, nobody should be surprised.
Arnab like every other private anchor is doing his job, holding onto the viewers. Its frickin' entertainment, not news.


Contrast this “controversy” with the arid reaction to the discovery just last year of unmarked graves containing more than 2,000 bodies in Kashmir. There were no angry newscasters demanding answers from the Indian government.
Can't talk about it. Can't send any correspondents in there to report on it either.


Extraordinarily, a discovery of such magnitude, instead of waking us to the brutality of the AFSPA, was cast as evidence of India’s redeeming features, a cause for self-congratulation: it was a governmental body that unearthed the graves, after all. Instead of questioning a policy that so randomly distributed death among Kashmiris, India celebrated its capacity for self-monitoring.
When the army says AFSPA may be removed then it goes, until such time it stays. In the end its the army's job to defend the area. The buck stops with them.


The novelist Amit Chaudhuri once wrote that “Indians don’t know how to fashion eloquence out of a sense of being wronged or having wronged, at least not without the unmistakable timbre of self-congratulation.” This is primarily because we ”have never really known what it means to inhabit a morally uneasy position.” The hysterical reaction to Kamal is a measure of Indian society’s sense of its own unimpeachable righteousness, and its imperviousness to the appeals of those seeking the restitution of their dignity.
All well and good but the peace in that area is being held to India's advantage because of AFSPA.

cataphract
19 Nov 12,, 18:37
It's true, and Kashmir isn't a special case. The states of Manipur, Assam, Mizoram, Nagaland, Meghalaya, Tripura and Arunachal Pradesh have lived under AFSPA far longer than the Kashmiris. As for the attitudes, a lot of Indians in the hinterland have twisted notions of what India actually is. They feel entitled to the land without giving a hoot about the sentiments of the people living on that land. Hell, I'm an anti-India Khalistani secessionist to a section of Indian members on another forum. :biggrin: Don't know how to change these attitudes. Though it doesn't really matter much back home since each state tends to do it's own thing, except ofcourse when the central government's imposed laws come into the picture, such as the AFSPA. Finding a mechanism to resolve those issues is still allusive.

Most Indians in the hinterland have far more important things to think about than what goes on in Punjab, J&K or northeast. And for whatever little their opinion matters, it is moulded by our ridiculous media.

Yusuf
19 Nov 12,, 18:48
The author can rename himself as CommieRed.

India has been forced to do what it has because it's neighbors won't let it live in peace.

And certainly the west should not lecture India on human rights.
Even someone like Ajmal Kasab who killed scores of people was afforded a fair trial and is so far living very comfortably in Indian jail and even demanding his favorite food and getting it.

If the army is not there, terrorists will run amok. India has shown remarkable patience I would say. Kashmir and North East is quite "out of bounds" for other citizens quite against the constitution but Kashmiris have been given special status.

@Tronic mate you know how the right wing is in India. It is quick to brand.

bolo121
20 Nov 12,, 14:53
I do feel sympathy for civilians caught in the middle and its true that there have been plenty of misdeeds and wrongful killings in both J&K and the North East.

But....the bottom line is, The Union Must Be Preserved and secession prevented no matter the cost.
Anyone who picks up a weapon or supports those who do is an enemy of the state and expendable.

We should have realized much earlier that nothing we do will ever endear these people to us. They will always dream of getting out of India and standing alone.
Follow the Han policy, flood the state with money and people from the Indian heartland.
Within a few generations demographics will ensure that separatism is much more difficult.

667medic
20 Nov 12,, 23:29
I had my first interaction with Indian-Kashmiris recently at my Ivy League University. These are educated men who did their PhD in Western countries. They squarely blame India for the mess. The issue is not about who is at fault but how can their opinions be accommodated.....

Double Edge
21 Nov 12,, 04:41
We should have realized much earlier that nothing we do will ever endear these people to us. They will always dream of getting out of India and standing alone.
From what i understand secession is less of an issue nowadays, it tends to be more about governance.


Follow the Han policy, flood the state with money and people from the Indian heartland.
Within a few generations demographics will ensure that separatism is much more difficult.
Article 370

lemontree
21 Nov 12,, 08:22
Well next time the author can write why the Kashmiri's dont want Article 370 to be abolished,.. so that fellow Indians get the same rights as Kashmiris' get in other Indian states. So that children of fellow Indians get seats in the quotas reserved in Kashmiri medical and engineering colleges. etc, etc....Till then the author can correct improve his writing skills.

Deltacamelately
21 Nov 12,, 09:38
How many states enjoy Article 370?
How much dough does the Centre gives to Govt. of J&K?
How many Kashmiri Muslims trading and working in other Indian States get roughened up or marginalized?
Kashmiri Muslims have owned land in other states, how many Non-Kashmiris own real estate in Kashmir?
Who killed/raped/threw out their racial kins, the Kashmiri Pundits?
How many Indian troop died in the hands of gun-weiling militants hiding inside mobs of stone pelting protesters, including women and children?

The author has a lot to answer before aspiring to get the Noble Peace Prize.

Tronic
21 Nov 12,, 10:34
Hate to be the one pointing out the Elephant in the room, but it seems like most folks here have reached a consensus that the game in Kashmir is about how best to hold a people against their will.


I had my first interaction with Indian-Kashmiris recently at my Ivy League University. These are educated men who did their PhD in Western countries. They squarely blame India for the mess. The issue is not about who is at fault but how can their opinions be accommodated.....

Kudos for addressing the real issue!

Everyone else here only seems to have vindicated the article. The article isn't about AFSPA or even the army. It is about the attitudes of the hinterland Indians against people living in conflict zones such as Kashmir. We have people scrambling to defend the policies of the government, without anyone addressing those alienating attitudes, which can even be seen in the posts here.

ambidex
21 Nov 12,, 12:11
Hate to be the one pointing out the Elephant in the room, but it seems like most folks here have reached a consensus that the game in Kashmir is about how best to hold a people against their will.



Kudos for addressing the real issue!

Everyone else here only seems to have vindicated the article. The article isn't about AFSPA or even the army. It is about the attitudes of the hinterland Indians against people living in conflict zones such as Kashmir. We have people scrambling to defend the policies of the government, without anyone addressing those alienating attitudes, which can even be seen in the posts here.

It was you who brought AFSPA in, otherwise thread was quite dormant for one or two days.

Then few posters have proved your point wrong by mentioning article 370, that GoI is interfering in business of natives of those states. May be you are seeing all problems in those states through the same prism you see issues pertaining to Punjab/Sikhs ?

bolo121
21 Nov 12,, 12:29
From what i understand secession is less of an issue nowadays, it tends to be more about governance.


Article 370

Secession is still simmering away below the surface. Its just that they haven't recovered their energy from the last round of protests.

Article 370 is unjust and un Indian. Every one of us should have the right to purchase land, live and work in any part of the country.

The only realistic long term fix is to change the demographics in the state ala China.
Otherwise it will remain as it is now, a bleeding ulcer costing endless amounts of blood and treasure.

Tronic
21 Nov 12,, 12:31
It was you who brought AFSPA in, otherwise thread was quite dormant for one or two days.

Then few posters have proved your point wrong by mentioning article 370, that GoI is interfering in business of natives of those states.

Errmm... Proved my point wrong? Quote from my post and highlight exactly which point of mines was proven wrong. :rolleyes:

And take one look at the date and timings of the posts before making ridiculous assertions.


May be you are seeing all problems in those states through the same prism you see issues pertaining to Punjab/Sikhs ?

You want different yardsticks for different people?

lemontree
21 Nov 12,, 12:31
Hate to be the one pointing out the Elephant in the room, but it seems like most folks here have reached a consensus that the game in Kashmir is about how best to hold a people against their will.


They squarely blame India for the mess. The issue is not about who is at fault but how can their opinions be accommodated.....

Kudos for addressing the real issue!

Everyone else here only seems to have vindicated the article. The article isn't about AFSPA or even the army. It is about the attitudes of the hinterland Indians against people living in conflict zones such as Kashmir. We have people scrambling to defend the policies of the government, without anyone addressing those alienating attitudes, which can even be seen in the posts here.
Tronic, dont catch the bull by its tail. Most posters including me have listed the benefits obtained by the Kashmiris and the safe guard of their special rights.

Now J&K is not Karnataka or TN, or Mizoram or Nagaland - it is a piece of geopolitical real estate, that is vital for India. Now if the opinion of the Phd or Mphil educated Kashmiri is to make the state independent or give it to Pakistan - that is just not acceptable for India. So their opinion does not count. Period.
The fate of Kashmir is not going to be decided because of the religious affinity of the population.

Tronic
21 Nov 12,, 12:51
Tronic, dont catch the bull by its tail. Most posters including me have listed the benefits obtained by the Kashmiris and the safe guard of their special rights.

Now J&K is not Karnataka or TN, or Mizoram or Nagaland - it is a piece of geopolitical real estate, that is vital for India. Now if the opinion of the Phd or Mphil educated Kashmiri is to make the state independent or give it to Pakistan - that is just not acceptable for India. So their opinion does not count. Period.
The fate of Kashmir is not going to be decided because of the religious affinity of the population.

Let the Kashmiris list their own benefits and their own losses. Actually listening to what their opinion is rather than preconceiving it and shutting it out would be a good start. You're vindicating the article; the Kashmiris are automatically assumed to be anti-nationals and must constantly prove their loyalty to the country. If you want their land, at the least, give them their share of dignity.

ambidex
21 Nov 12,, 13:22
It's true, and Kashmir isn't a special case. The states of Manipur, Assam, Mizoram, Nagaland, Meghalaya, Tripura and Arunachal Pradesh have lived under AFSPA far longer than the Kashmiris.

You brought in ASFPA into discussion, I will repeat it. Then you blamed others for the same. People are entitled to answer your questions.


As for the attitudes, a lot of Indians in the hinterland have twisted notions of what India actually is. They feel entitled to the land without giving a hoot about the sentiments of the people living on that land.


What do you mean by Indians not giving hoot about their sentiments but feel entitled to the land ? Indians have embedded their will in constitution of India and the same constitution has bestowed them with Article 370 which gives all the hoots they want on many issues including immunity against all the social-cultural-political interferences and complete entitlements of their lands and property, minus security. This is what I was pointing out and you have been proved wrong on this.


Errmm... Proved my point wrong? Quote from my post and highlight exactly which point of mines was proven wrong. :rolleyes:

And take one look at the date and timings of the posts before making ridiculous assertions.

I have quoted your very first post.


You want different yardsticks for different people?

So my diagnosis was right.

Every ASFPA state has issues unrelated to each other. Every insurgency has its own type and different ways in use to tackle it.

Today there is no ASFPA in Punjab and no other restrictions like Kashmiris complaint about. I believe in experts who make decision on these special provisions of the law and other rights not given to them strictly because of security situation. GoI is not snatching their lands no one is converting them back to Hinduism etc.

Punjabi suba issue, issue of Chandigarh, issue of water, (excluding 1984 riots) is no where on earth is an excuse to become a terrorist or secessionist. Also many throats have been slit and blood spilled by both the sides till today. Only an apologist will now demand sense of closure after weighing the blood is grams on a centre beam scale.

Deltacamelately
21 Nov 12,, 15:13
@Tronic,

I could have continued discussing and lamenting about the son of the soil thingy vis-a-vis Kashmiris and their land, however I decided otherwise, because the way I see it, its all about bloody religion and extremism. When a community...any community, mixes politics with religion and starts thinking that wielding arms and pretending to be the big-burly is going to force the establishment to yield, high chances are, they are destined to get their arses whipped pretty hard.

And coming to the Kashmiris and their plight - Bluntly put, they forgot to watch-out for the door while going out of the civil-dialogue/discussion room with GoI, when they didn't rally against their kin/militants against the routing of the Pundits, their slaughter and uprooting and know what, the door didn't either care about the outgoing butts.

If a Gujrati or a Bengali is mad about the secessionist Kashmiri, its not because he has hideous plans of grabbing the Kashmiris land or daughter, it is all because he/she watched the Pundits getting butchered and routed from their ancestral land, just because the Pundit failed to convert to Islam and the Kashmiri driving him out didn't.

As about the strategic geopolitical realities that Adrian pointed out - Well I really don't know you would care or understand.

Period.

Tronic
21 Nov 12,, 22:13
You brought in ASFPA into discussion, I will repeat it. Then you blamed others for the same. People are entitled to answer your questions.

If all you took from my first post, was the first line, before hitting reply and going all defensive, than that's fine too. We can discuss AFSPA, which is an un-democratic and a draconian law, but you do so knowingly ignoring that there is more in the article, aswell as my first post, than that. Though, the attitudes themselves are becoming apparent.



As for the attitudes, a lot of Indians in the hinterland have twisted notions of what India actually is. They feel entitled to the land without giving a hoot about the sentiments of the people living on that land.
What do you mean by Indians not giving hoot about their sentiments but feel entitled to the land ? Indians have embedded their will in constitution of India and the same constitution has bestowed them with Article 370 which gives all the hoots they want on many issues including immunity against all the social-cultural-political interferences and complete entitlements of their lands and property, minus security. This is what I was pointing out and you have been proved wrong on this.

I have quoted your very first post.

You know very well what attitudes I am talking about there, though a good attempt at twisting it. To further prove my point, how many folks here think Article 370 should be abolished? (Oh wait, someone has already posted this, calling out for a demographic bomb in Kashmir to bring hinterland Indians to outnumber the Kashmiris.) Cheers!



So my diagnosis was right.

Every ASFPA state has issues unrelated to each other. Every insurgency has its own type and different ways in use to tackle it.

Today there is no ASFPA in Punjab and no other restrictions like Kashmiris complaint about. I believe in experts who make decision on these special provisions of the law and other rights not given to them strictly because of security situation. GoI is not snatching their lands no one is converting them back to Hinduism etc.

Punjabi suba issue, issue of Chandigarh, issue of water, (excluding 1984 riots) is no where on earth is an excuse to become a terrorist or secessionist. Also many throats have been slit and blood spilled by both the sides till today. Only an apologist will now demand sense of closure after weighing the blood is grams on a centre beam scale.

All it takes to reimpose AFSPA in Punjab is the central government terming it as a "disturbed area". All the legislation for Punjab exists since 1983. Without clearly defining what constitutes a "disturbed area", it hands draconian power to a system which has historically shown authoritarian tendencies. Maybe you were't aware, but Chandigarh remained a "disturbed area" until only a month ago, and even than, the home ministry refused to lift AFSPA from the city because of "the possibility of revival of Khalistani seccionists in the city". Second important point is that, if today there is no militancy in Punjab, it is largely due to Pakistan deciding to pull support from the Khalistanis in the early 90s. The Kashmiris have not been so lucky, and today we see the Kashmiris suffering the brunt, while the militants are funneling in from Pakistan.

Tronic
21 Nov 12,, 22:35
@Tronic,

I could have continued discussing and lamenting about the son of the soil thingy vis-a-vis Kashmiris and their land, however I decided otherwise, because the way I see it, its all about bloody religion and extremism. When a community...any community, mixes politics with religion and starts thinking that wielding arms and pretending to be the big-burly is going to force the establishment to yield, high chances are, they are destined to get their arses whipped pretty hard.

For you to make that argument, this country needed a civil war in '47, not a two nation theory. When you have already divided the country based on religion, how can you suppress one community from making a call? (Though it must be pointed out that the Kashmiris wished to remain independent from both India and Pakistan. The Pakistanis hijacked the platform in '89, and India helped by rigging the elections).


And coming to the Kashmiris and their plight - Bluntly put, they forgot to watch-out for the door while going out of the civil-dialogue/discussion room with GoI, when they didn't rally against their kin/militants against the routing of the Pundits, their slaughter and uprooting and know what, the door didn't either care about the outgoing butts.

Again, It was thanks to India's dirty political games in Kashmir that Pakistan was running the show in the valley by the late '80s. The Hindu Kashmiris never had issues prior to the '80s. Why is that?


If a Gujrati or a Bengali is mad about the secessionist Kashmiri, its not because he has hideous plans of grabbing the Kashmiris land or daughter, it is all because he/she watched the Pundits getting butchered and routed from their ancestral land, just because the Pundit failed to convert to Islam and the Kashmiri driving him out didn't.

So at the end of the day, it is about religion. And I would have that Gujarati or Bengali get his government to take the fight across the border, where the real source of the problem is. That Bengali or Gujrati is wrong to hold soft targets such as the common Kashmiri culpable.


As about the strategic geopolitical realities that Adrian pointed out - Well I really don't know you would care or understand.

Period.

I very well understand those geopolitical realities. However, let me just point out that when a people of the same country share an unequal relationship, the relationship becomes one of imperialists and their subjects. My country is supposed to look after my well-being, not make me expendable over the land I live on. This holds true not only in Kashmir, but the North East as well.

Firestorm
21 Nov 12,, 22:53
We have to realize that the counter-insurgency operations being performed by the Army in J&K and other places, are operations which ideally, should be performed by the paramilitary and state police forces. The very fact that we need the Army to do them means that the conditions have deteriorated to such an extent that it is beyond the capability of the State Police, CRPF, etc. to maintain law and order. Now if the Army is supposed to do their job, they need to be given the constitutional authority to carry out their operations in the affected areas. Unless the AFSPA is imposed, they do not have that authority. If we revoke the AFSPA from Kashmir, we'll be forcing the IA to fight the insurgency with both hands tied behind their back. They are guaranteed to fail. We should also keep in mind that the constitutional validity of the act has been upheld by the Supreme Court. So it is not illegal or unconstitutional by any means.



Again, It was thanks to India's dirty political games in Kashmir that Pakistan was running the show in the valley by the late '80s. The Hindu Kashmiris never had issues prior to the '80s. Why is that?

Ah, so because the Central government rigged an election, the Kashmiri Muslims (or more specifically, Kashmir valley Sunni Muslims) are justified in threatening, killing or hounding out nearly all the Kashmiri Pandits from their homeland.

antimony
21 Nov 12,, 22:57
I am all for banning AFSPA, but lets also abolish Article 370 and find a way for Kashmiri pundits to return to their homeland. Funny how no one mentions them.

Doktor
21 Nov 12,, 22:59
Deploying army at home is always wrong option.

Firestorm
21 Nov 12,, 23:12
That Bengali or Gujrati is wrong to hold soft targets such as the common Kashmiri culpable.
Please talk to Pandit families who fled the state back then. They will tell you that the common Kashmiri wholeheartedly participated in the pogrom against the Pandits.

Another thing to understand is that the whole of kashmir doesn't belong to Kashmir valley Sunni Muslims. Even though they may be a majority in the state, there are several other communities in the state such as Shias, Muslim Gujjars, Buddhists, etc. who seem to have no problem with the center. Their only grouse is that in trying to pacify the valley Muslims, the other communities have been completely ignored by the GoI while handing out central funds for infrastructure and other programs in J&K. This is not surprising however. In any troubled region of India, the community with the most nuisance value is always given the most importance, many a times to the detriment of everybody else.

Ray
22 Nov 12,, 08:10
Deploying army at home is always wrong option.

Deploying the Army and using Artillery and Air Force that are area weapons capable of immense destruction without even observation as did Pakistan and other countries is wrong.

At home would be at home, if there were not foreign terrorist operating or if they were not foreign sponsored.

The Indian Police is not like the US police which has SWAT, which are as good and destructive as any other infantry personnel, if not more brutal.

Deltacamelately
22 Nov 12,, 08:20
For you to make that argument, this country needed a civil war in '47, not a two nation theory. When you have already divided the country based on religion, how can you suppress one community from making a call? (Though it must be pointed out that the Kashmiris wished to remain independent from both India and Pakistan. The Pakistanis hijacked the platform in '89, and India helped by rigging the elections).
Its you who is rigging the discussion here. Its absolutely pointless to flash back to the partition. People were given a choice to chose their loyalities, while the GoI made it absolutely clear that the country won't tolerate any further secessionist demand based on religion. Heck, that's the corner stone of our opposition to a Muslim Kashmiri state based on religion. Some understood, some didn't and that brings the country's armed forces into play. Because the constitution places the onus of India's territorial integrity on her armed forces and as I have previously quoated, "even if that warrants disproportionate force". Accept this and grow up. Once the Chechens chose the guns, there was nothing stopping the Russsians to crush, which were otherwise her own citizen.



Again, It was thanks to India's dirty political games in Kashmir that Pakistan was running the show in the valley by the late '80s. The Hindu Kashmiris never had issues prior to the '80s. Why is that?
I doubt you to be a an astute authority to label whatever transpired in Kashmir since the Pakistani intrusion till 80's to be India's dirty political games. Lot many military and civilian officials who have served in that part of the country, with a LOT more authority and experience do not make such sweeping allegations.


So at the end of the day, it is about religion. And I would have that Gujarati or Bengali get his government to take the fight across the border, where the real source of the problem is. That Bengali or Gujrati is wrong to hold soft targets such as the common Kashmiri culpable.
The Kashmiri, valley Muslims are not that soft a target, when they have the Pundit's and other Hindus blood on their sleeves and are shamelessly perching on looted property.
And YES, it IS about religion and religion being used as a weapon, while it should have been a thing of personal faith.


I very well understand those geopolitical realities. However, let me just point out that when a people of the same country share an unequal relationship, the relationship becomes one of imperialists and their subjects. My country is supposed to look after my well-being, not make me expendable over the land I live on. This holds true not only in Kashmir, but the North East as well.
They chose that unequal relationship, when they murdered people, raped women, called them Indians, burnt the Tricolour, raised the Pakistani flags in Lal Chowk and called for a secession and gave a damn to the consitution of the State of India. They have blood in their sleeves and we are still feeding them. Don't lampoon me.

Ray
22 Nov 12,, 08:31
I had my first interaction with Indian-Kashmiris recently at my Ivy League University. These are educated men who did their PhD in Western countries. They squarely blame India for the mess. The issue is not about who is at fault but how can their opinions be accommodated.....

Which part of Kashmir?

Here what a person from the Pakistani Occupied Kashmir Mirpuri who is highly educated to say. He is is a political analyst and author of many books and booklets. Also he is Director Institute of Kashmir Affairs.



Throughout my struggle for united and independent Jammu and Kashmir I have been subject to multiple pressures, some pressure from my colleagues or senior leaders and some from those who did not like what I did to promote an independent Kashmir, and expose black sheep in the struggle.

Time and again ban was imposed on my thinking and writings. I was asked not to write as it created problems for the top leaders (who had mortgaged their struggle and conscience for the sake of political and monetary gains) because their bosses in Islamabad were angry because of what I wrote. In one such situation my friend and colleague Abbas Butt, who succeeded me as the President was asked to take some action against me. Abbas Butt replied action against him for what. He has not done anything against the party, party constitution or the struggle for an independent Jammu and Kashmir.

Despite this bold stand, Abbas Butt had to set up a committee to scrutinise my articles. The committee after analysing my articles concluded that my articles were in line with the party constitution and represented true ideology of united and independent Jammu and Kashmir. After this the top leader ordered that Shabir Choudhry should not write anything for the period of six months; and when he writes he should submit his articles to a committee of three men; and if they were satisfied then they would allow him to publish the articles.

This was a great insult to my wisdom, talent and research on Kashmir; and to rub salt they included a name of a man in a committee who had only seen colleges and universities from a distance, as the man was only educated to class 7 from Pakistani Administered Kashmir. I thought it was better not to write anything on Kashmir, or write another novel instead of submitting my articles to those who lacked wisdom, qualification and intellect. I did not write anything for many months, but when Abdul Ghani Lone was massacred for opposing a dictation of Islamabad, I started writing again by saying that it was criminal negligence to remain quiet now.

Forces of occupation and their agents know a pen of a true nationalist writer is very effective weapon. It is because of this they try to impose restrictions on free thinking and debates and try to gag writers and analysts, as they don’t want people to know their game plan. These directionless people promoted as leaders want the status quo to continue, as this suits their agenda and agenda of their pay masters. When I get personal attacks and abuse on social media, I understand why that was happening. I say to myself, once again I have hit the target and upset those powers that want the status quo to continue. I feel I have upset forces of extremism, violence and hatred; and attracted their wrath.
Dr Shabir Choudhry's blog (http://www.drshabirchoudhry.blogspot.in/)

PROFILE OF Dr SHABIR CHOUDHRY

Dr Shabir Choudhry was born in Nakker Shamali (near Panjeri) in District Bhimber, Azad Kashmir. He went to UK in 1966, and holds a dual nationality.

Dr Shabir Choudhry has done extensive research on the issue of Kashmir and Indo Pakistan relations. He passed BA Honours in Politics and History, and Mphil in International Relations (title of the thesis, ‘Kashmir and Partition of India’); and title of his PhD thesis is ‘Kashmir- An issue of a nation not a dispute of a land’.

Apart from this Dr Shabir Choudhry passed Post Graduates Certificates in Education, and NVQ Assessor’s qualifications; and taught English in London.

Political Achievements
Founder member of JKLF (Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front established in 1977) and got elected as a Press Secretary in 1984.

Became its Secretary General in 1985, and resigned from this post in 1996.
Got elected President of JKLF and Europe in May 1999, and decided not to contest in elections of July 2001.
Said good – bye to the JKLF as it is in many groups and is largely seen as advancing a Pakistani agenda on Kashmir dispute, and set up a new party Kashmir National Party in May 2008.
.

At present, he is:

Spokesman Kashmir National Party and Director Diplomatic Committee;


Founder member and Director Institute of Kashmir Affairs;


A founder Member and Trustee/ Director of London based registered charity, Kashmir Foundation International and resigned from this position in August 2001

Ray
22 Nov 12,, 08:49
Let the Kashmiris list their own benefits and their own losses. Actually listening to what their opinion is rather than preconceiving it and shutting it out would be a good start. You're vindicating the article; the Kashmiris are automatically assumed to be anti-nationals and must constantly prove their loyalty to the country. If you want their land, at the least, give them their share of dignity.

You had somewhere also written that the issue of Kashmir is religion.

Who insists on using religion as the political and blackmail tool? Search your heart and you shall find the answer. Sunni Kashmiris of the Valley or the majority of Indians?

India has the second largest Muslim population of the world. Do you find them feeling that the mess in India is all because of the others?

Of course, if one has an axe to grind, then indeed one could find so many errors in India to highlight without any logic.

On AFSPA, you have to understand the environment.

Have you been to Kashmir and do you think Kashmir lies astride the NH 1A? How are the interiors connected? With broad wide autobahns where if a terrorist is apprehended, he can be with speed and with alacrity be taken to the nearest Police Station?

Try going into the high mountains where it is pine forests and snow. Check the time it takes to reach those places. Now, if a terrorist holes in a village in such a terrain, you will wait for the police to fetch up before you apprehend the terrorist? He would have fled thumbing his nose at the SF.

Therefore, AFSPA.

You apprehend, interrogate and hand him over to the Police.

Why interrogate?

Because of the universal adage of every single country - intelligence gained late is no intelligence.

By spot interrogation one finds out the aim, the numbers in the group of terrorists and where they have holed up and where they have made the cache.

It is the air conditioned drawing room, pink champagne drinking, diamond oozing 'intellectuals' who have no clue of reality who undertake the glib talk of removing the AFSPA.

AFSPA does not absolve the Army from cases filed on Human Rights.

Further, the Army would prefer that they are relieved of the duty. It will ensure less deployment and so there will be longer peace tenures where they will be with their families instead of this long tenures in operational areas.

My children saw 11 schools in their 12 classes that was essential for High School education. Just to tell you how these long operational tenures affect normal family lives. You call that fair? And you feel that makes the Army men happy that they have these long operational tenures in CI areas?

But then, what will happen if AFSPA is removed? Guess? The Pakistan sponsored terrorist will flow in and there will be mayhem and if that is what is your idea of a solution, then go ahead with your contentions.

Even the hinterland of India is not safe from the terrorists. In Mumbai, the NSG had to be brought in where some of the glittering chatterati would have said that why bring in the Army? However, it hit them in their drawing rooms and so they were scared out of their underwear and there was no such liberal peep out of them.

ambidex
22 Nov 12,, 14:39
Kashmiri Pandits offered three choices by radical Islamists » Indian Defence Review (http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news/kashmiri-pandits-offered-three-choices-by-radical-islamists/)

This is what they were doing in Kashmir during 90s.


“Zalimo, O Kafiro, Kashmir harmara chod do”.
(O! Merciless, O! Kafirs leave our Kashmir)

“Kashmir mein agar rehna hai, Allah-ho-Akbar kahna hoga”
(Any one wanting to live in Kashmir will have to convert to Islam)

La Sharqia la gharbia, Islamia! Islamia!
From East to West, there will be only Islam

“Musalmano jago, Kafiro bhago”,
(O! Muslims, Arise, O! Kafirs, scoot)

“Islam hamara maqsad hai, Quran hamara dastur hai, jehad hamara Rasta hai”
(Islam is our objective, Q’uran is our constitution, Jehad is our way of our life)

“Kashmir banega Pakistan”
(Kashmir will become Pakistan)

“Kashir banawon Pakistan, Bataw varaie, Batneiw saan”
(We will turn Kashmir into Pakistan alongwith Kashmiri Pandit women, but without their men folk)

“Pakistan se kya Rishta? La Ilah-e- Illalah”
(Islam defines our relationship with Pakistan)

Dil mein rakho Allah ka khauf; Hath mein rakho Kalashnikov.
(With fear of Allah ruling your hearts, wield a Kalashnikov)

“Yahan kya chalega, Nizam-e- Mustafa”
(We want to be ruled under Shari’ah)

“People’s League ka kya paigam, Fateh, Azadi aur Islam”
(“What is the message of People’s League? Victory, Freedom and Islam.”)

Wall posters in fairly large letters, proclaiming Kashmir as ‘Islamic Republic of Kashmir’, became a common sight in the entire Valley. So were the big and prominent advertisements in local dailies, proclaiming their intent:

‘Aim of the present struggle is the supremacy of Islam in Kashmir, in all walks of life and nothing else. Any one who puts a hurdle in our way will be annihilated’.
Press release of Hizb-ul-Mujahideen (HM) published in the morning edition of Urdu Daily ‘Aftab’ of April, 01, 1990.

‘Kashmiri Pandits responsible for duress against Muslims should leave the Valley within two days’.
Head lines of Urdu Daily, Al Safa, of April, 14, 1990.

‘With Kalashnikov in one hand and Quran in the other the Mujahids would openly roam the streets singing the Tarana-e- Kashmir.’

lemontree
29 Nov 12,, 06:28
Let the Kashmiris list their own benefits and their own losses. Actually listening to what their opinion is rather than preconceiving it and shutting it out would be a good start....
List one valid opinion by them, that is not linked to separatism?

You're vindicating the article; the Kashmiris are automatically assumed to be anti-nationals and must constantly prove their loyalty to the country.
(a) If the Kashmiri supports separatism - then he/she is anti-national for me.
(b) If the Kashmiri supports foreign terrorists and holds bandhs (strikes) in the cities when these terrorists are gunned down by security forces - then he/she is anti-national for me.
(c) When we see the Kashmiri's leaders and institutions suppressing the Hindu pilgrimage programmes - then yes he/she becomes communal and anti-national for me.

If you want their land, at the least, give them their share of dignity.
They had more dignity and enjoyed more prosperity than the rest of India,....but they chose otherwise.
FYI, the national poverty index in 1989 - Kashmir has 4% people below the poverty line, while the average was 26% for the rest of India.

Double Edge
29 Nov 12,, 11:38
Everyone else here only seems to have vindicated the article. The article isn't about AFSPA or even the army. It is about the attitudes of the hinterland Indians against people living in conflict zones such as Kashmir. We have people scrambling to defend the policies of the government, without anyone addressing those alienating attitudes, which can even be seen in the posts here.
Tell me how to do it. We don't get any balanced coverage from the area at all.

All we get are HR reports about violations past or present in the area. We lack the perspective to address those points in a balanced & realistic manner. We cannot adequately respond to the PR game at play here. In the extreme case you end up with partisan replies and the impression is unwittingly created that the rest of us do not care. My approach is to point to the law in place. Its not nice but it's the only objective point there is.

That law is in place for a reason. Remove it and we turn the clock back to the 90s. Is that a better outcome than the present. Even more people will die as a consequence. Army has a thankless job here, keep the peace and suffer HR violations or lose the peace and be accused of incompetence and even more HR violations. Army is damned whatever they do. Army is just a tool in the backdrop of the larger gepolitical game at play here. Lets be clear that so long as AFSPA is in place that there is no peace and a state of war is still on. It might not be kinetic but it still exists.

For the Paks, Kashmir is fair game as they see it and they are going to keep pushing for it. Its ironic the need for Kashmir for both India & the Pakistan. The Paks need Kashmir to distract and focus away from unrest in other areas of their country and as a consequence maintain their military state.. We need Kashmir because if it breaks away then we believe that the whole country will collapse. Same goes for any other state with break away intentions. Your average kashmiri is caught in the cross fire.


Let the Kashmiris list their own benefits and their own losses. Actually listening to what their opinion is rather than preconceiving it and shutting it out would be a good start. You're vindicating the article; the Kashmiris are automatically assumed to be anti-nationals and must constantly prove their loyalty to the country. If you want their land, at the least, give them their share of dignity.
Didn't they have this recently with the interlocutors. I'm not sure if their report has been released as yet. But i understand their report has already been submitted to the govt. Now, once that report comes out maybe the situation will become more clear. When will the report come out ? as usual there will be domestic political calculations to be considered.

Tronic
29 Nov 12,, 18:37
Tell me how to do it. We don't get any balanced coverage from the area at all.

All we get are HR reports about violations past or present in the area. We lack the perspective to address those points in a balanced & realistic manner. We cannot adequately respond to the PR game at play here. In the extreme case you end up with partisan replies and the impression is unwittingly created that the rest of us do not care. My approach is to point to the law in place. Its not nice but it's the only objective point there is.

That law is in place for a reason. Remove it and we turn the clock back to the 90s. Is that a better outcome than the present. Even more people will die as a consequence. Army has a thankless job here, keep the peace and suffer HR violations or lose the peace and be accused of incompetence and even more HR violations. Army is damned whatever they do. Army is just a tool in the backdrop of the larger gepolitical game at play here. Lets be clear that so long as AFSPA is in place that there is no peace and a state of war is still on. It might not be kinetic but it still exists.

You are scared that everything will go back to the 90s, so a repressive state is your answer. The North Eastern states have had brutal laws in place for more than 40 years now! To say that the only way for India to remain intact is through brutal and repressive laws, it reinforces an idea that India is, in fact, a non-viable state!

The only way for India to grow as one society is through recognizing that injustice actually tears our country apart, not meld it together. It is a sense of justice that binds people together, it is justice which makes us one society, and any threat to that sense of justice undermines the entire system. Sooner or later, the country will fall apart if it continues on this path. There is nothing to show that the North Easterners feel any more Indian than they did 40 years ago. Infact, I wouldn't be surprised if the opposite is true today. It can easily be seen through the rise to power of regional political parties, who rally people around the cause for justice.



For the Paks, Kashmir is fair game as they see it and they are going to keep pushing for it. Its ironic the need for Kashmir for both India & the Pakistan. The Paks need Kashmir to distract and focus away from unrest in other areas of their country and as a consequence maintain their military state.. We need Kashmir because if it breaks away then we believe that the whole country will collapse. Same goes for any other state with break away intentions. Your average kashmiri is caught in the cross fire.

The greater factor for wanting Kashmir is water, more than anything else. Kashmir feeds major water sources of India and is the lifeline for Pakistan. The ideological angle is also there, playing second fiddle to the water, and India is doing a terrible job at making it's ideological argument.



Didn't they have this recently with the interlocutors. I'm not sure if their report has been released as yet. But i understand their report has already been submitted to the govt. Now, once that report comes out maybe the situation will become more clear. When will the report come out ? as usual there will be domestic political calculations to be considered.

Interlocutors were a very recent step. Should have happened long ago. That said, it's still a step in the right direction, even if it's a very small one.

Tronic
29 Nov 12,, 18:50
Its you who is rigging the discussion here. Its absolutely pointless to flash back to the partition. People were given a choice to chose their loyalities....

Kashmiris were given a choice? What bullocks! Your argument ends here.

Though, I have to admit, the best part of your argument was this beauty:

Because the constitution places the onus of India's territorial integrity on her armed forces and as I have previously quoated, "even if that warrants disproportionate force". Accept this and grow up. Once the Chechens chose the guns, there was nothing stopping the Russsians to crush, which were otherwise her own citizen.

Do I need to point out the obvious? I think it speaks for itself. :rolleyes:

Firestorm
30 Nov 12,, 00:55
We are being told that we do not listen to the opinions of Kashmiris. I took the advice to heart. Does listening to this count?

Kashmiris hold funeral prayers for Kasab (http://freepresskashmir.com/funeral-prayer-held-for-kasab-in-kashmir-valley/)



Hundreds of people today offered funeral-in-absentia or ‘gaibana nimaz-e-jinaza’ for Mumbai terror attack convict Ajmal Kasab who was hanged in Pune’s Yerwada Jail on Wednesday.

Hardline separatist leader Syed Ali Geelani had appealed to people to hold his funeral prayers. Kasab’s funeral was offered today afternoon at the city’s Barzulla area. The people also offered funeral-in-absentia for Palestinians killed in Israeli air strikes on Gaza.

“Funeral prayers should be held for (Palestinian) martyrs and Kasab should also be remembered. Nimaz-e-Jinaza (funeral prayers) should also be offered to him,”

In May 2011, Geelani had led hundreds of people in the city’s Batamaloo neighbourhood to offer funeral prayers for Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, days after he was killed in a US raid in Pakistan.


Not surprisingly, India's liberal mainstream media blacked this out.

Tronic
30 Nov 12,, 02:16
We are being told that we do not listen to the opinions of Kashmiris. I took the advice to heart. Does listening to this count?

Kashmiris hold funeral prayers for Kasab (http://freepresskashmir.com/funeral-prayer-held-for-kasab-in-kashmir-valley/)


Not surprisingly, India's liberal mainstream media blacked this out.

lol... Quoting the extremist elements within the extremists, the Jamaat-e-Islami gathering a few hundred Kashmiris, as the representatives of the entire Kashmir Valley. Yeah, you really took the advice to heart. :rolleyes: What you're doing is akin to quoting Thackeray preaching Hindus to form suicide squads and putting it on a platter as the opinions of the entire Hindu community. Atleast the SS can still lay claim to some section of support, as they manage to win the municipal elections; the Hurriyat cannot even do that!

bolo121
30 Nov 12,, 04:17
You are scared that everything will go back to the 90s, so a repressive state is your answer. The North Eastern states have had brutal laws in place for more than 40 years now! To say that the only way for India to remain intact is through brutal and repressive laws, it reinforces an idea that India is, in fact, a non-viable state!

The only way for India to grow as one society is through recognizing that injustice actually tears our country apart, not meld it together. It is a sense of justice that binds people together, it is justice which makes us one society, and any threat to that sense of justice undermines the entire system. Sooner or later, the country will fall apart if it continues on this path. There is nothing to show that the North Easterners feel any more Indian than they did 40 years ago.

Of course we are a non viable state!
Outside of the educated middle class our identity is constructed around caste, religion and ethnicity complete with different languages and cultures.
We have hundreds of separatist movements and the fastest growing part of our political spectrum are the various regional parties.
We have only been a united nation for 65 years.
We have to do everything we can to patch together this nation and keep it going.

Being nice to the Kashmiris and NE peoples will not take away their desire for secession.
Look at Spain and Catalonia, UK and Scotland, Canada and Quebec. Separatism still exists no matter how wealthy the region becomes even in spite of a vast amount of power devolution.

Put simply, your kumbayah lets all hold hands and be pals concept is pie in the sky liberal nonsense.
I am very sympathetic to the plight of civilians stuck in the mess, but if if Kashmir must suffer so that the rest of india suffers less, then so be it.
Under no circumstances can this nation afford to lose Kashmir, it would be a body blow to our continued survival as a nation state.

Its a simple choice, the Kashmiri people have to stand up and prove that they are loyal to the Indian Union, that they will not secede.
After this AFSPA and other repressive laws will not be needed.

Tronic
30 Nov 12,, 05:39
Of course we are a non viable state!
Outside of the educated middle class our identity is constructed around caste, religion and ethnicity complete with different languages and cultures.
We have hundreds of separatist movements and the fastest growing part of our political spectrum are the various regional parties.
We have only been a united nation for 65 years.
We have to do everything we can to patch together this nation and keep it going.

Being nice to the Kashmiris and NE peoples will not take away their desire for secession.
Look at Spain and Catalonia, UK and Scotland, Canada and Quebec. Separatism still exists no matter how wealthy the region becomes even in spite of a vast amount of power devolution.

Put simply, your kumbayah lets all hold hands and be pals concept is pie in the sky liberal nonsense.
I am very sympathetic to the plight of civilians stuck in the mess, but if if Kashmir must suffer so that the rest of india suffers less, then so be it.
Under no circumstances can this nation afford to lose Kashmir, it would be a body blow to our continued survival as a nation state.

Its a simple choice, the Kashmiri people have to stand up and prove that they are loyal to the Indian Union, that they will not secede.
After this AFSPA and other repressive laws will not be needed.

On one hand, someone gives me an example of Russia-Chechnya as justification for armed repression of a population, while on the other, you give examples of Spain-Catalonia, UK-Scotland and Canada-Quebec as if they are a dreadful, failed scenario. Don't think I can possibly argue in the face of such logic. Adios!

bolo121
30 Nov 12,, 07:25
On one hand, someone gives me an example of Russia-Chechnya as justification for armed repression of a population, while on the other, you give examples of Spain-Catalonia, UK-Scotland and Canada-Quebec as if they are a dreadful, failed scenario. Don't think I can possibly argue in the face of such logic. Adios!
You have been saying that removal of the AFSPA and military presence will prove to Kashmiris that we believe in Justice for them.
This is supposed to suddenly endear them to us, we will all magically get along, no new insurgency will arise and everyone will dance around trees with pink unicorns singing bollywood songs.
We both know that the islamists will take such actions as admitting weakness and weariness. We would have a much worse insurgency on our hands.

What I am saying is that no matter how nice you treat a population or how peaceful and wealthy they get they will still desire independence, that is the context in which i mentioned the rich nations above.

They can afford in the end to give up and say go your own way.
We cannot, not now not ever.

Tronic
30 Nov 12,, 08:17
You have been saying that removal of the AFSPA and military presence will prove to Kashmiris that we believe in Justice for them.

Have I been saying that? :rolleyes: I guess those are the shallow conclusions you reach when you take my thoughts, expressed in lengthy paragraphs, and summarize them all in one line.

Anyhow, the maturity level is obviously not enough to introspect on the problem it seems.


This is supposed to suddenly endear them to us, we will all magically get along, no new insurgency will arise and everyone will dance around trees with pink unicorns singing bollywood songs.
We both know that the islamists will take such actions as admitting weakness and weariness. We would have a much worse insurgency on our hands.

You might as well put the Bollywood songs into it, since it definitely sits well with your line of argument and logic.


What I am saying is that no matter how nice you treat a population or how peaceful and wealthy they get they will still desire independence, that is the context in which i mentioned the rich nations above.

They can afford in the end to give up and say go your own way.
We cannot, not now not ever.

Those countries you mentioned have been doing a far better job with their secessionist movements than the Russians in Chechnya who have been fighting in that tiny republic since the 18th century.

Anyhow, I can clearly see that you have nothing to offer and no solutions to discuss. You come here with nothing but a fear topped with a bucket full of arrogance.

lemontree
30 Nov 12,, 09:33
lol... Quoting the extremist elements within the extremists, the Jamaat-e-Islami gathering a few hundred Kashmiris, as the representatives of the entire Kashmir Valley. Yeah, you really took the advice to heart. :rolleyes:
(a) That is a very lame excuse. The fact that Kashmiris went to pray for a dead terrorist, whos' acts of murder were widely covered in the media, shows their mindset.
(b) These processions/ protests are common in villages whenever terrorists are gunned down.

For me they have choosen their side -they are on the side of the terrorists.

Atleast the SS can still lay claim to some section of support, as they manage to win the municipal elections; the Hurriyat cannot even do that!
Their aims differ, SS wants political power, while the Hurriyat is the overt sessionist movement wing of Pakistan.

bolo121
30 Nov 12,, 10:09
Have I been saying that? :rolleyes: I guess those are the shallow conclusions you reach when you take my thoughts, expressed in lengthy paragraphs, and summarize them all in one line.

Anyhow, the maturity level is obviously not enough to introspect on the problem it seems.

I summarised the salient points from your several pages of blather. You state the following:
Indian government is repressive towards the people.
This in not in keeping with indian democracy.
Kasmiris have therefore been let down by the government and should be allowed to choose their own path.

All I have mentioned is that this is a very idealistic and silly idea, India cannot risk it.



You might as well put the Bollywood songs into it, since it definitely sits well with your line of argument and logic.

My logic is fine. You dont like it and so naturally you have stooped to attacking the person instead of the message.



Those countries you mentioned have been doing a far better job with their secessionist movements than the Russians in Chechnya who have been fighting in that tiny republic since the 18th century.
Anyhow, I can clearly see that you have nothing to offer and no solutions to discuss. You come here with nothing but a fear topped with a bucket full of arrogance.

Again, Chechnya was not mentioned by me nor did I compare success in dealing with it.
We do not have the money or the government efficiency to do what these nations did.
Our problem is much older and will last as long as hindus and muslims exist in South Asia. No solution exists.
All we can do is manage it with what funds and tools are available to us. This is pretty much what the government has been doing.


With regards to your reaction baiting comments on maturity and arrogance, you show both those problems. Look in the mirror.

Deltacamelately
30 Nov 12,, 14:22
Kashmiris were given a choice? What bullocks! Your argument ends here.
Read the post more intently before bragging bullocks. The context was regarding your bringing in the 1947 partition.
And my argument stands, as vindicated by the present policy that is endorsed by all most EVERYBODY who matter or who have authority on the subject in hand.

As I have said before, I don't believe you have the authority or qualifications to challenge the current approach towards addressing the Kashmir insurgency, that is endorsed by people who have real-life experience and serving authority on the matter. Had your ideological pontification had any realpolitik or practical credibility, I am sure many in the decision loop would have advocated the same and the same would have been implemented. About time for you to smell the coffee.


Though, I have to admit, the best part of your argument was this beauty:


Because the constitution places the onus of India's territorial integrity on her armed forces and as I have previously quoated, "even if that warrants disproportionate force". Accept this and grow up. Once the Chechens chose the guns, there was nothing stopping the Russsians to crush, which were otherwise her own citizen.

Do I need to point out the obvious? I think it speaks for itself. :rolleyes:
I repeat, "even if that warrants disproportionate force", when it comes to the question of India's territorial integrity. It IS that beautiful, grow up.
You have brandished your nonchalance for the nation's territorial integrity on two instances already, argueing in favour of secessionists forces on religious and ethenic lines and have been confronted by ALL your countrymen with NOBODY endorsing your reasoning and commentary.

So yes, I think it speaks for itself. ROLLEYES.

Tronic
30 Nov 12,, 23:17
(a) That is a very lame excuse. The fact that Kashmiris went to pray for a dead terrorist, whos' acts of murder were widely covered in the media, shows their mindset.

Your city elects the Shiv Sena and puts them into power, while not a single Kashmiri has ever voted for Geelani. This makes your argument lame.


(b) These processions/ protests are common in villages whenever terrorists are gunned down.

I have seen Kashmiri processions/protests at the deaths on civilians and even at the deaths of fellow Kashmiri soldiers.

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Never any mass protest at the death of a terrorist. Though, as your example of Geelani shows, even if 4 people gather to protest the death of a terrorist, you will willingly label it as "Kashmiris protest at the death of a terrorist". This is exactly what you have done with Geelani's example.


For me they have choosen their side -they are on the side of the terrorists.

That's a misnomer. A terrorist is only a terrorist if and when he targets civilians, and if the Kashmiris are being targeted, than I highly doubt they will support the terrorists. On the other hand, if the target are the armed forces, than technically, those are not "terrorists". Either way, had the Kashmiris chosen sides, the Kashmiris would not have defied death threats from the LeT and a call for boycott from the Hurriyat to go out and vote in one of the largest electoral turnouts to elect their representatives. Ofcourse, the bigots on both sides will always seek to look at the Hurriyat as the representatives of the Kashmiris, no matter how much the Kashmiris defy the Hurriyat and elect their own representatives.



Their aims differ, SS wants political power, while the Hurriyat is the overt sessionist movement wing of Pakistan.

SS is legitimatized by the people's vote, Hurriyat is not.

Tronic
30 Nov 12,, 23:31
I summarised the salient points from your several pages of blather. You state the following:
Indian government is repressive towards the people.
This in not in keeping with indian democracy.
Kasmiris have therefore been let down by the government and should be allowed to choose their own path.

All I have mentioned is that this is a very idealistic and silly idea, India cannot risk it.

You're reaching your own conclusions. I have only presented the problem to the people here and that alone is making people anxious. I guess it suites folks better to keep things tucked under the carpet and out of site. I never discussed any such solution. If it's 'blather', than let it be. Don't come and try argue with me over conclusions I never presented.



My logic is fine. You dont like it and so naturally you have stooped to attacking the person instead of the message.

Your message was pink unicorns and bollywood singers dancing around trees. How were you expecting me to respond? :rolleyes:



Again, Chechnya was not mentioned by me nor did I compare success in dealing with it.

You "liked" the post which compared Chechnya with Kashmir, and than presented me with some quite successful examples of conflict resolutions as if they were some dire failures. I cannot argue with someone who agrees with the methodology of Chechnya and sees Quebec as a failure.


We do not have the money or the government efficiency to do what these nations did.

Bleeding militarily, and economically, is not the cheaper option.


Our problem is much older and will last as long as hindus and muslims exist in South Asia. No solution exists.
All we can do is manage it with what funds and tools are available to us. This is pretty much what the government has been doing.

I disagree, and if that's the case, I don't want to be a party to some Hindu-Muslim blood feud.


With regards to your reaction baiting comments on maturity and arrogance, you show both those problems. Look in the mirror.

I often do reflect and concede all the time that I may be immature at many instances, but in this instance, I believe the Indian fanboys are outdoing me.

Tronic
01 Dec 12,, 00:23
Read the post more intently before bragging bullocks. The context was regarding your bringing in the 1947 partition.

The context may be the partition, but your argument still doesn't add up. No one asked the Kashmiris what they wanted in '47, so your point was moot. You stated, "People were given a choice to chose their loyalities," and I merely corrected you, no they weren't! I'm not saying we should go back in history, but just saying that we should not lie to ourselves. It doesn't help anyone.



And my argument stands, as vindicated by the present policy that is endorsed by all most EVERYBODY who matter or who have authority on the subject in hand.

That's again not true. There is a wide debate on this policy and a big push to revoke AFSPA in many parts of Kashmir and India. I know where I stand, and I know where you stand. Leave it at that. AFSPA will have to go today or tomorrow, and the pressure against it continues to build up.


As I have said before, I don't believe you have the authority or qualifications to challenge the current approach towards addressing the Kashmir insurgency, that is endorsed by people who have real-life experience and serving authority on the matter. Had your ideological pontification had any realpolitik or practical credibility, I am sure many in the decision loop would have advocated the same and the same would have been implemented. About time for you to smell the coffee.

It's being challenged by a lot more folks than just me. Be it the National Security Advisory Board for the North East (National Security Advisory Board (NSAB) for repealing AFSPA : 21st nov12 ~ E-Pao! Headlines (http://e-pao.net/GP.asp?src=24..211112.nov12)) or even a former GOC (4:35 Truth Vs Hype: Kashmir - The riddle of AFSPA - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa7KMmCiASo)). AFSPA continues to become a bigger question mark every passing day. It is rather time for you to smell the coffee.



I repeat, "even if that warrants disproportionate force", when it comes to the question of India's territorial integrity. It IS that beautiful, grow up.

I think it is you who needs to realize that Chechnya isn't actually a beautiful example. The Russians have been fighting there for the last three centuries, and continue to fight to this day. It's the worst example to ape and your short-sightedness fails to see the wound being left open to be exploited by India's rivals at any moment of weakness in India's future. Maybe there's a reason the Chinese have chosen to settle their land-disputes with all their other neighbours except with India, with whom they choose to keep open a dispute over some worthless rocks.



You have brandished your nonchalance for the nation's territorial integrity on two instances already, argueing in favour of secessionists forces on religious and ethenic lines and have been confronted by ALL your countrymen with NOBODY endorsing your reasoning and commentary.

Actually, I have only voiced my support for the PEOPLE, never the secessionists. Everything else is people's insecurities at work.

All I have done is tried to put in a realization that if you do not win over the people, you will never win over the land, and will continue to be embroiled in wars for centuries.

Double Edge
02 Dec 12,, 17:54
You are scared that everything will go back to the 90s, so a repressive state is your answer. The North Eastern states have had brutal laws in place for more than 40 years now! To say that the only way for India to remain intact is through brutal and repressive laws, it reinforces an idea that India is, in fact, a non-viable state!
A couple of disturbed areas along with a Maoist insurgency does not make for a non-viable state :)

The Paks lost a significant portion of their country in '71 and have been under worse and are still not a non-viable state. So lets not apply this 'failed' thinking towards our country as well.


The only way for India to grow as one society is through recognizing that injustice actually tears our country apart, not meld it together. It is a sense of justice that binds people together, it is justice which makes us one society, and any threat to that sense of justice undermines the entire system. Sooner or later, the country will fall apart if it continues on this path. There is nothing to show that the North Easterners feel any more Indian than they did 40 years ago. Infact, I wouldn't be surprised if the opposite is true today. It can easily be seen through the rise to power of regional political parties, who rally people around the cause for justice.
What are we trading for to provide the Kashmiris with their rightful claim on justice ? Nothing

Is there any peace accord in place with the Paks to enable such ? Nope

Therefore there are no protections whatsoever should AFSPA be removed nor guarantees that an insurgency will not take root and inflame the region. Remember, all the Paks need for a short term tactical gain is to put Kashmir on the front pages of western media. Our job is to deny them.

So lets not put the cart before the horse, moral values and justice notwithstanding.

Now, we have stated that we will not talk about Kashmir until the unfinished business of 26/11 reaches a satisfactory conclusion. That process is also going nowhere. We never seem to have enough proof to get at the masterminds behind 26/11. The UPA or any other party cannot let this one slide or they will pay a heavy price at the next elections for relinquishing their duty to get to the bottom of that atrocity. Failure to do so means we give the Paks carte blanche to attack anywhere else in the country with impunity.

Unfortunately, the Kashmiris are just going to have to get in line here.


The greater factor for wanting Kashmir is water, more than anything else. Kashmir feeds major water sources of India and is the lifeline for Pakistan. The ideological angle is also there, playing second fiddle to the water, and India is doing a terrible job at making it's ideological argument.
Am beginning to suspect its more a case of Pak domestic politics than geopolitics. How do the Pak leaders tell their people that they have to make do with less water than the previous year, surely the Indian must be hogging the water, How dare they (!~)

Take the Cauvery dispute between my state and the Tammys. They say we are not releasing the agreed to amount of Cauvery water to them. But the real problem is the monsoons failed this year. Therefore we do not have enough water for ourselves before we can give them their share. This has resulted in no end of jousting between our party & their party. This circus will continue until next year where we hope the monsoons will be more plentiful and the dispute magically goes away like it did the last time it came up in 2006 for similar reasons, a failed monsoon.

There are no issues with the Indus water treaty as you well know, we never held any water back even during war time. So take the Cauvery dispute and apply it here as well. Monsoons succeed everybody is happy otherwise there is much hot air & contention.


Interlocutors were a very recent step. Should have happened long ago. That said, it's still a step in the right direction, even if it's a very small one.
Regardless, it is an effort by the state to understand Kashmiri grievances in their own terms.

Until the interlocutors report comes out in public, is discussed in Parliament as well as in the media the bulk of us are not really going to have much of a basis to talk more objectively about the subject.

Deltacamelately
03 Dec 12,, 11:22
The context may be the partition, but your argument still doesn't add up. No one asked the Kashmiris what they wanted in '47, so your point was moot. You stated, "People were given a choice to chose their loyalities," and I merely corrected you, no they weren't! I'm not saying we should go back in history, but just saying that we should not lie to ourselves. It doesn't help anyone.
You brought in the partition, hence the context. The Kashmiris were represented by their ruling King, just like many other Princely States and hence the decision will be considered legit by the GoI.


That's again not true. There is a wide debate on this policy and a big push to revoke AFSPA in many parts of Kashmir and India. I know where I stand, and I know where you stand. Leave it at that. AFSPA will have to go today or tomorrow, and the pressure against it continues to build up.
Tomorrow's ground realities will dictate whether AFSPA stays or not. As of now, the Army requires it. We have no ambitions to enforce such in Kashmir to "rule" that place. However, as long as the government wants the IA to conduct CI, the AFSPA is the only immunity against the militants, so it stays now.


It's being challenged by a lot more folks than just me. Be it the National Security Advisory Board for the North East (National Security Advisory Board (NSAB) for repealing AFSPA : 21st nov12 ~ E-Pao! Headlines (http://e-pao.net/GP.asp?src=24..211112.nov12)) or even a former GOC (4:35 Truth Vs Hype: Kashmir - The riddle of AFSPA - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa7KMmCiASo)). AFSPA continues to become a bigger question mark every passing day. It is rather time for you to smell the coffee.
Questioning and revoking/abrogating are two different things. The very fact that AFSPA is still in place vindicates that policy makers view it as vital to our efforts in Kashmir.


I think it is you who needs to realize that Chechnya isn't actually a beautiful example. The Russians have been fighting there for the last three centuries, and continue to fight to this day. It's the worst example to ape and your short-sightedness fails to see the wound being left open to be exploited by India's rivals at any moment of weakness in India's future. Maybe there's a reason the Chinese have chosen to settle their land-disputes with all their other neighbours except with India, with whom they choose to keep open a dispute over some worthless rocks.

Your thoughts. I am not beholding the Chechen operation as something to be happy about. Note I said, once the Chechens sought guns, there was nothing else left for the Russian military than to respond with violence. Same in the case of Kashmir, you wield guns, you invite bullets. You bring more violence to bear on the defending security forces, you invite disproportionate force. There's no other alternative. You seek long term solutions to political problem, you better drop guns and get into the discussion room with the civilian leadership and spare us folks. Even the Army believes that political problems are best solved by political solutions, as long as secessionist forces do not grab the guns and challenge the territorial integrity of the state itself. That brings us in.


Actually, I have only voiced my support for the PEOPLE, never the secessionists. Everything else is people's insecurities at work.

Unfortunately, that's exactly the opposite of what your posts in these two debates have demonstrated here.

All I have done is tried to put in a realization that if you do not win over the people, you will never win over the land, and will continue to be embroiled in wars for centuries.
Armed forces are technically not designed to actually "win hearts" of people who challenge the writ of the state, which they are part of. Not while the dissidents have not fully consumed every possible political process/solutions. Not while a substantial portion of them wield fire arms, rape and loot fellow-beings and publicly showcase their allegiance to an overtly hostile enemy, including raising her Flag.

lemontree
04 Dec 12,, 06:27
Your city elects the Shiv Sena and puts them into power, while not a single Kashmiri has ever voted for Geelani. This makes your argument lame....SS is legitimatized by the people's vote, Hurriyat is not.
Please understand Shiv Sena is a political party, their airm is to gain power through the ballot. They have facist policies but are proud Indians.
The Hurriyat is the overt sessionist wing of the ISI. Their aim is not to get legitmacy through the ballot, but through the bullet.

Once you have understood the nuances of guerilla warfare you will understand the aim and actions of the different factions.


I have seen Kashmiri processions/protests at the deaths on civilians and even at the deaths of fellow Kashmiri soldiers.

Never any mass protest at the death of a terrorist. Though, as your example of Geelani shows, even if 4 people gather to protest the death of a terrorist, you will willingly label it as "Kashmiris protest at the death of a terrorist". This is exactly what you have done with Geelani's example.
See the link below and educate yourself. The link shows the funeral of a killed HM terrorist.....looks much more that 4 people gathered there. http://english.sina.com/world/p/2010/0305/307270.html


That's a misnomer. A terrorist is only a terrorist if and when he targets civilians, and if the Kashmiris are being targeted, than I highly doubt they will support the terrorists. On the other hand, if the target are the armed forces, than technically, those are not "terrorists". Either way, had the Kashmiris chosen sides, the Kashmiris would not have defied death threats from the LeT and a call for boycott from the Hurriyat to go out and vote in one of the largest electoral turnouts to elect their representatives. Ofcourse, the bigots on both sides will always seek to look at the Hurriyat as the representatives of the Kashmiris, no matter how much the Kashmiris defy the Hurriyat and elect their own representatives.
Things are not as simple and black and white....