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ambidex
02 Oct 12,, 07:22
Lt Gen Brar: It was an assassination attempt by 'pro-Khalistan elements' - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Lt-Gen-Brar-It-was-an-assassination-attempt-by-pro-Khalistan-elements/articleshow/16637016.cms)


LONDON: Lt Gen K S Brar, who was assaulted by four people in central London on Sunday night, is convinced that it was an attempt to assassinate him by " pro-Khalistan elements" for his role in the 1984 "Operation Bluestar".

Brar, who kicked and fought three of the four assailants, suffered a knife wound in the neck and is recovering after receiving medical treatment at a London hospital soon after the attack near the busy Marble Arch area. He is due to return to India on Tuesday.

"This was a pure assassination attempt on me. Even on Internet there are so many threats being sent to me to say that there have been many attempts on your life but they haven't succeeded, but the next one will succeed. They've been after me." Brar told a television channel on Monday night.

"On 6th of June, which is the anniversary of Bluestar every year, particularly in London, the radical Sikhs come out in procession with banners and make pledges to kill me. So it was a pure assassination attempt," he said.

Brar said it was "obvious" that the assailants were Khalistan sympathisers, who, he added, wanted to kill him since "Operation Bluestar".

Describing the incident, the 78-year-old Brar said he fought with the assailants, with "abnormal strength", and added: "Now when I think back I can't imagine how I fought with those three big guys. But I suppose being a soldier and having been in the army for so many years, one learns to defend oneself".

One of the four assailants, he said, separated his wife from him, while the other three "went for me". His wife fell down when one of the assailants pushed her against the wall, he said.

Everything happened within a couple of minutes, "maybe one minute", he said.

The police, Brar said, had told him that a mobile phone had been recovered from the site of assault, which may lead them to the assailants.

The retired Lt General praised the police and hospital authorities who treated him after the assault.

Operation Bluestar was aimed at flushing out Sikh terrorists led by Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale from the Golden Temple, who was demanding a separate state for Sikhs called Khalistan.

A decorated soldier, Brar saw action in the 1971 war with Pakistan, and was among the first to enter Dhaka when the Indian Army forced Pakistani army into surrender.

General A S Vaidya who was the Army chief in 1984 planned the highly controversial Operation Bluestar. Vaidya was shot dead in Pune in 1986.

Brar assailants had 'long beards': Police

Scotland Yard has appealed for information from members of the public on the Sunday night assault on Lt Gen K S Brar, and described the four assailants as wearing dark clothing, long black jackets and having "long beards".

Stating that detectives were keeping an open mind on the motivation behind the attack, the police said in a statement on Monday that they were particularly keen to speak to people who assisted Brar and his wife after the attack on Old Quebec Street in central London.

No arrests had been made until last night, the police said.

"The four men are described as wearing dark clothing and long black jackets. They all had long beards. One of the men is described as younger and slimmer than the other three. They all fled in the direction of Oxford Street," the statement said.

"Detectives are keen to speak to anyone who was in the area at the time or who may have information about the incident. In particular they want to speak to those people who assisted the wife and the victim at the scene following the attack," it added.

According to Brar, a mobile phone had been recovered from the scene, which may help lead the police to the assailants. The police were also expected to go through CCTV footage from the area that has several cameras.

*******************

The brave man fought back his assailants, my salute.

Tronic
02 Oct 12,, 09:41
Brar has lived under category Z security in India for over 2 decades, so it was rather careless of him not to inform the high commission while he was in England.

Also, while it is very likely that Sikh secessionists may have been behind this attack, I think the Indian media has been a tad bit unprofessional in establishing the verdict even before a single assailant has been identified! Talk about jumping the gun! The comments in that ToI article against Sikhs are just plain ugly, despite the fact that the General himself is a Sikh.

From the BBC, IMO, a more balanced report;



Indian general who led Golden Temple raid stabbed in London


The Indian general who led a 1984 raid on Sikh militants in Amritsar's Golden Temple has been stabbed in London.

Lt-General Kuldeep Singh Brar sustained serious but not life-threatening injuries when four men attacked him.

The 78-year-old is thought to still be a target for extremist Sikhs, but there has been no suggestion yet as to the identity of his attackers.

Lt Gen Brar's Operation Bluestar left around 1,000 people dead.

The army raided the Golden Temple in the Sikh holy city of Amritsar in June 1984 to flush out armed Sikh militants who were fighting for an independent homeland of Khalistan.

Reports on the exact number of people killed vary but it is thought about 1,000 people were killed in the ensuing struggle, including women and children on pilgrimage and soldiers.

Lt Gen Kuldeep Singh Brar was one of the key architects of the operation.

He was attacked on Old Quebec Street in the Oxford Circus area of London on Sunday night by unknown assailants, with no suggestion so far that his attackers were Sikhs.

After spending the night in hospital he was released on Monday.

BBC News - Indian general who led Golden Temple raid stabbed in London (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19790926)

hammer
02 Oct 12,, 09:42
Describing the incident, the 78-year-old Brar said he fought with the assailants, with "abnormal strength", and added: "Now when I think back I can't imagine how I fought with those three big guys. But I suppose being a soldier and having been in the army for so many years, one learns to defend oneself".


Pretty much explains what happened. They didn't expect the old guy to fight back.

ambidex
02 Oct 12,, 11:17
Also, while it is very likely that Sikh secessionists may have been behind this attack, I think the Indian media has been a tad bit unprofessional in establishing the verdict even before a single assailant has been identified! Talk about jumping the gun!

By media verdict you mean whether assailants were Sikhs or not ?

Please point out on above article where Indian media is jumping the gun.

Lt. Gen is the best person to identify them if they were Sikhs or not. He is convinced that it was an attempt to assassinate him by pro-khalistani elements. I don't think there is further need to be politically correct given his experience and him being a Sikh himself.

You found BBC article more balanced because instead of the incident they rant more about what happened during bluestar or how many or many not were killed during that army operation ?

kato
02 Oct 12,, 13:48
You found BBC article more balanced because instead of the incident they rant more about what happened during bluestar or how many or many not were killed during that army operation ?
Rant? Operation Blue Star was the Indian equivalent of Tiananmen. And that's only if we downplay its significance.

ambidex
02 Oct 12,, 15:13
Rant? Operation Blue Star was the Indian equivalent of Tiananmen. And that's only if we downplay its significance.

Please mention your flag first.

I have no intention to downplay significance of anything rather there should be a balance. Indian source gave news about the incidence in detail and the past in brief. But BBC source RANT more about operation Blue Star which other poster felt the right approach to deal with this issue. May be he is trying to justify that attack someway, somehow ? If this is not the case (apologies in advance) then he should point out wrong reporting and good reporting from mine source and his source.

Please present Operation Blue star's equivalence to Tiananmen Square as well.

Thanks

Mohan
02 Oct 12,, 17:14
I feel its very much wrong to equate operation blue star with Tiananmen square.

Firestorm
02 Oct 12,, 17:32
Rant? Operation Blue Star was the Indian equivalent of Tiananmen. And that's only if we downplay its significance.

I could have understood if you compared it to the Grand Mosque seizure of 1979. But Tiananmen? Seriously? The Chinese government used military force against peaceful protesters in the middle of the city. The Indian government used military force with an aim to flush out known terrorists who were treating the Golden Temple as their personal fortress. The planning and execution of the operation was flawed and it ended with many civilian deaths in addition to those of the terrorists and military personnel. How you can possibly compare the two is beyond me.

Tronic
02 Oct 12,, 18:51
By media verdict you mean whether assailants were Sikhs or not ?

Please point out on above article where Indian media is jumping the gun.

I don't believe I need to point it out, the above article is screaming "Pro-Khalistani assailants". Infact, even before Gen Brar said a single word, the headlines were the same yesterday.


Lt. Gen is the best person to identify them if they were Sikhs or not. He is convinced that it was an attempt to assassinate him by pro-khalistani elements. I don't think there is further need to be politically correct given his experience and him being a Sikh himself.

He's actually not the best person to identify them as he has been living under duress from Sikh militants for the last 2 decades. His only identification of them was that they had "long beards". How many practicing Sikhs do you see with long beards who do not wear turbans? As I said, the attackers may well have been Sikhs, but their "beards" are not a giveaway as the Indian media has portrayed it. :rolleyes:

Lt Gen Hoon disagrees that this was a planned attack by Khalistanis, because he thinks that had it been so, Gen Brar would've been dead: Ex-Army Lt. Gen. Hoon rules out Khalistani attack on Operation Blue Star hero (http://www.newstrackindia.com/newsdetails/2012/10/02/167-Ex-Army-Lt-Gen-Hoon-rules-out-Khalistani-attack-on-Operation-Blue-Star-hero.html)


You found BBC article more balanced because instead of the incident they rant more about what happened during bluestar or how many or many not were killed during that army operation ?

They describe the incident as it is, don't jump to conclusions, and describe why it may have been Sikh secessionists. Indian media ought to learn.

Tronic
02 Oct 12,, 19:04
I could have understood if you compared it to the Grand Mosque seizure of 1979.

The Grand Mosque seizure pales in comparison in everything; the types of weapons used (small arms in GM seizure vs tanks and mortars in Golden Temple assault) and the number of civilians killed (a few dozen to a hundred at most at GM vs close to a thousand at GT assault).

Firestorm
02 Oct 12,, 19:21
The Grand Mosque seizure pales in comparison in everything; the types of weapons used (small arms in GM seizure vs tanks and mortars in Golden Temple assault) and the number of civilians killed (a few dozen to a hundred at most at GM vs close to a thousand at GT assault).
Yes, but the circumstances were similar. An important place of worship taken over by terrorists and with a large number of civilians trapped inside. That a military operation was needed to clear out the terrorists was beyond question. The government had no other choice. The ultimate execution of the operation turned out to be a disaster.

In any case my point was that it is absolutely ridiculous to compare Bluestar to the Tianamen square massacre.

Tronic
02 Oct 12,, 20:58
Yes, but the circumstances were similar. An important place of worship taken over by terrorists and with a large number of civilians trapped inside. That a military operation was needed to clear out the terrorists was beyond question. The government had no other choice. The ultimate execution of the operation turned out to be a disaster.

In any case my point was that it is absolutely ridiculous to compare Bluestar to the Tianamen square massacre.


FS, Only if you look at it vaguely do the circumstances seem similar. In reality, the incidents are miles apart.

The militants at the Golden Temple had been based and operating from the Golden Temple unimpeded for 6 months! (They were previous tools of the Indian government and had an open hand). The civilians were used to having the militants present inside, and continuous requests by the Punjab Police to arrest the militants had been turned down by the Indian central government.

When the army was sent in, they did not cordon off the temple and continued to allow free movement of civilians to enter and exit the Temple, until the night of September 31st. The army sealed off the Temple without warning on the date of one of the holiest days in Sikhism and left thousands of civilians trapped inside who weren't allowed to exit! The media was rounded up, put on buses and shipped out of Punjab, while the water and electricity was cut off on June 2nd. The army assault began on the 3rd and by the 4th, the army was using 25 pounder artillery guns and mortars to shell the premises of the Golden Temple, where thousands of civilians were present! By the 5th, the army had sent in APCs inside the temple, and by the morning of the 6th, Centurion tanks were being called in to directly shell the Akal Takth.

In these 4 days of fighting, the thousands of civilians inside were cut off from water and food, and by eyewitness accounts, when a group of thirsty civilians stormed outside the temple to run to the pool for water, they were mowed down by army machine guns who mistakenly thought they were being assaulted.

Furthermore, Op Bluestar was not restricted to the Golden Temple and was a Punjab wide operation where Gurudwaras in all of Punjab were assaulted simultaneously. The white paper by the Indian government puts the figure at 42 Gurudwaras being assaulted, but the numbers are speculated to be about 3 dozen more.

This is the reason which led many Sikhs to believe that the Operation was actually an assault on their identity and a Psych Op sanctioned by the Congress government to suppress Punjab's political demands.

The circumstances are actually very different than the Grand Mosque seize and the manner of the operation becomes closer to Tienanmen when the callous regard for civilians in considered.

Firestorm
02 Oct 12,, 21:16
The circumstances are actually very different than the Grand Mosque seize and the manner of the operation becomes closer to Tienanmen when the callous regard for civilians in considered.
Tronic, there were NO armed militants in Tiananmen square. Every single civilian who died there was a protester asking for freedom of speech, freedom of press and better governance. There were students leading a hunger strike. Now contrast this with the situation in the Golden Temple. Bhindranwale had converted the Akal Takht into an ammo dump. He had a few hundred militants under his command and a veteran Major General to lead them in battle.

I already agreed that the eventual execution of the operation was disastrous. The number of civilian as well as IA deaths was unacceptable as was the damage done to the temple. But the GoI was primarily dealing with armed militants whose stated purpose was the secession of Punjab to form a separate state. The Chinese government AFAIK was dealing with unarmed workers and students.

ambidex
02 Oct 12,, 21:46
I don't believe I need to point it out, the above article is screaming "Pro-Khalistani assailants". Infact, even before Gen Brar said a single word, the headlines were the same yesterday.


ToI has quoted Lt. Gen Brar in above news article. The newspapers were rightly pointing out at that possibility yesterday. Even you have suggested about the same possibility.

He's actually not the best person to identify them as he has been living under duress from Sikh militants for the last 2 decades. His only identification of them was that they had "long beards". How many practicing Sikhs do you see with long beards who do not wear turbans? As I said, the attackers may well have been Sikhs, but their "beards" are not a giveaway as the Indian media has portrayed it. :rolleyes:

You can use him being a Sikh and at the same time doubt his judgement about Sikhs (to Identify) :rolleyes:. I have seen a video on NDTV where he has clearly stated word 'Sikhs' for them.

Lt Gen Hoon disagrees that this was a planned attack by Khalistanis, because he thinks that had it been so, Gen Brar would've been dead: Ex-Army Lt. Gen. Hoon rules out Khalistani attack on Operation Blue Star hero (http://www.newstrackindia.com/newsdetails/2012/10/02/167-Ex-Army-Lt-Gen-Hoon-rules-out-Khalistani-attack-on-Operation-Blue-Star-hero.html)

And you buy that prediction of Lt. Gen Hoon, who wasn't even there ? I do 10s of bedside tracheostomies every year with one small surgical blade trust me Lt. Brar just got lucky and the help came in time.

BTW the link is not working.

They (BBC) describe the incident as it is, don't jump to conclusions, and describe why it may have been Sikh secessionists. Indian media ought to learn.

I found everything same about the incident reporting with BBC source (apart from their generic Blue Star operation details) and Indian media reporting. Don't know what made you pontificate at Indian media and derail the discussion.

ambidex
02 Oct 12,, 22:02
I should have mentioned it before. My purpose to start this thread was to mention one of the hazards an armed force personnel can face, haunting him even post retirement. Maybe this is an isolated unique case of Lt.Gen. Brar who is living under threat to his personal and family security because he did his duty.

Blademaster
03 Oct 12,, 03:52
Rant? Operation Blue Star was the Indian equivalent of Tiananmen. And that's only if we downplay its significance.

Oh bullshit!!! What a load of crock!!!

GOI gave the terrorists every chance to surrender. The terrorists booby trapped the entire temple, descrecating the very grounds. It is not like Tiananmen where the soldiers mowed down innocent and unarmed people.

What utter rubbish!!

Officer of Engineers
03 Oct 12,, 04:47
GOI gave the terrorists every chance to surrender.I think that is where Kato is alluding to. Both governments gave every opportunity for the dissidents to end their protests peacefully. Both governments could not and did not allow the challenges to their authority to go unanswered.

Ray
03 Oct 12,, 05:19
Bluestar was against armed to the teeth terrorists and Tienanmen was against unarmed protesters.

Officer of Engineers
03 Oct 12,, 05:24
Not all the protesters were unarmed, Sir

https://www.google.ca/search?q=tiananmen+square+dead+soldiers&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=eRc&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=2r1rUPu1B-W30AHNj4DAAg&ved=0CEsQsAQ&biw=1120&bih=880

Pedicabby
03 Oct 12,, 10:42
From the BBC article.


He was attacked on Old Quebec Street in the Oxford Circus area of London on Sunday night by unknown assailants, with no suggestion so far that his attackers were Sikhs.

They could have beem Romanian Gypseys.

ambidex
03 Oct 12,, 11:30
From the BBC article.



They could have beem Romanian Gypseys.

Lt. Gen is the best person to identify them as Sikhs and he has said so in an interview to NDTV post attack.

ambidex
03 Oct 12,, 11:35
Not all the protesters were unarmed, Sir

https://www.google.ca/search?q=tiananmen+square+dead+soldiers&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=eRc&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=2r1rUPu1B-W30AHNj4DAAg&ved=0CEsQsAQ&biw=1120&bih=880

Sir,

Non of the picture showing armed civilians. May be I am missing something.

.................................................. ...................................
On Topic.

Just posting a video of Lt. Gen Brar's last interview before attack..

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/lieutenant-general-kuldeep-singh-brar-s-tv-interview-in-june-2012-274429?h_related_also_see

second video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjkDc0Mnh14&feature=relmfu

Deltacamelately
03 Oct 12,, 11:44
Not all the protesters were unarmed, Sir

https://www.google.ca/search?q=tiananmen+square+dead+soldiers&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=eRc&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=2r1rUPu1B-W30AHNj4DAAg&ved=0CEsQsAQ&biw=1120&bih=880
Sir,

There is absolutely no comparison in the magnitude and type/amount of arms that the militants had in Golden Temple and the Tianamen protestors.
Operation Blue Star was launched against hardcore militants led by a veteran InA General and they were confident to hold onto their positions, believing that the InA would blink twice before launching a full blown assault and also banked on the GoI's hesitance against buying the ire of the Sikh community pan India.

What happened afterwards is very very unfortunate, but it was more about bad-management of the Operation rather than the GoI/InA's deliberate attempt to slaughter its own citizen.

Deltacamelately
03 Oct 12,, 11:50
The Kashmiri militants have also resorted to similar techniques, often siezing religious shrines and holding people hostage. The Army had no choice but to storm the shrines often leading to civilian casualities and damage to the shrines. However, the onus lies with the militants who have no qualms in militarizing the shrines, rather than the security forces who have to commit to the thankless job of storming the religious shrines and flushing the militants out. The writ of the state had to be enforced, even if that translates into damaged property and dead people.

Officer of Engineers
03 Oct 12,, 13:12
Sir,

Non of the picture showing armed civilians. May be I am missing something. You're seeing the pictures of dead soldiers and burnt APC. The weapon used was Molotov Cocktail.


Sir,

There is absolutely no comparison in the magnitude and type/amount of arms that the militants had in Golden Temple and the Tianamen protestors.
Operation Blue Star was launched against hardcore militants led by a veteran InA General and they were confident to hold onto their positions, believing that the InA would blink twice before launching a full blown assault and also banked on the GoI's hesitance against buying the ire of the Sikh community pan India.

What happened afterwards is very very unfortunate, but it was more about bad-management of the Operation rather than the GoI/InA's deliberate attempt to slaughter its own citizen.The point is Major that in both cases, the protesters have stopped being civilians and had become the enemy. Chinese soldiers are human beings. They were trained, indoctrinated to protect the people. They were called the People's Liberation Army. Turning guns on your own people is not any more natural for Chinese soldiers than it was for Indian soldiers.

Until the protesters stopped being the people and became the enemy. The Chinese protesters spilled first blood and killed first. The regular Chinese soldier lost all inhibition to shoot them soon after that.

Officer of Engineers
03 Oct 12,, 13:22
Lt. Gen is the best person to identify them as Sikhs and he has said so in an interview to NDTV post attack.He's the best person to give a description but even I would hesitate to identify them as Sikhs until further information becomes available. First rule of contact. Initial reports are always wrong ... even when they're right.

ambidex
03 Oct 12,, 14:23
He's the best person to give a description but even I would hesitate to identify them as Sikhs until further information becomes available. First rule of contact. Initial reports are always wrong... even when they're right.

Sir,

I bet, you can.

If Lt. Gen must talk PC then it is totally a different discussion.

I would believe his word and its not difficult to identify someone from your own ethnicity or background. Having a scuffle with few of them and they way they might have been talking/yaling can reveal their ethnicity and background with ease.

ambidex
03 Oct 12,, 14:47
You're seeing the pictures of dead soldiers and burnt APC. The weapon used was Molotov Cocktail.


I see, few were hanged and strangled by protesters too.

If PLA was out then they must be having a military objective. The way mob behave was typical of a riot not an armed stand off.

There is no equivalence between act of mad mobs out powering a soldier or a group of Soldiers or throwing fire bombs (which happens in many riots we see) and someone at ambush behind machinegun net or a bunker.

PS: I am not exonerating protesters of Tiananmen Square for their violence.

Officer of Engineers
03 Oct 12,, 16:04
I would believe his word and its not difficult to identify someone from your own ethnicity or background. Having a scuffle with few of them and they way they might have been talking/yaling can reveal their ethnicity and background with ease.There's no such mention other than physical appearance based upon the articles presented. As such, I cannot assume the initial reports of Sikhs to be correct.


There is no equivalence between act of mad mobs out powering a soldier or a group of Soldiers or throwing fire bombs (which happens in many riots we see) and someone at ambush behind machinegun net or a bunker.First off, it was a cluster fuck of an operation. Ground communications between units were non-existing and no RRF was on standby to rescue these poor blokes.

The order for lethal force was issued by the commander on the scene after these incidents. And if you have followed the events. Those troops remembering what happened to their brothers did not hesitate one second when the order to fire came.

Tronic
03 Oct 12,, 17:27
ToI has quoted Lt. Gen Brar in above news article. The newspapers were rightly pointing out at that possibility yesterday. Even you have suggested about the same possibility.

As I mentioned, the headlines in the Indian media have been the same even before Gen Brar made that statement. Suggesting a possibility is one thing, making a headline out of it, totally another.



You can use him being a Sikh and at the same time doubt his judgement about Sikhs (to Identify) :rolleyes:. I have seen a video on NDTV where he has clearly stated word 'Sikhs' for them.

How have I "used" him being a Sikh? That is total BS. And yes, I will cast doubts on his judgement because it is not unreasonable for humans under duress to make flawed judgements. It could very well be that they were Sikhs, but I'll wait for the Police to tell me that, other possibilities are still wide open as far as I'm concerned.



And you buy that prediction of Lt. Gen Hoon, who wasn't even there ? I do 10s of bedside tracheostomies every year with one small surgical blade trust me Lt. Brar just got lucky and the help came in time.

I don't "buy" anything until the Police come out with the suspects; his example was merely used to point out the possibilities and that the Indian media has been jumping the gun in establishing the verdict.


BTW the link is not working.

It is for me.



I found everything same about the incident reporting with BBC source (apart from their generic Blue Star operation details) and Indian media reporting. Don't know what made you pontificate at Indian media and derail the discussion.

Well, I didn't find the reporting to be unbiased, so I posted another link. You took issue at that link, so I'll put the "derailment", if there was any, on your shoulders. Cheers!



If Lt. Gen must talk PC then it is totally a different discussion.

If he was to walk down the streets of Southhall with a shirt saying "I'm General Brar", he'd probably be lynched alive by the Sikhs. So it has absolutely nothing to do with being "politically correct"! It has to do with the motive of the attack. Everything is still only speculation until the Police make a statement on it.

Tronic
03 Oct 12,, 18:00
The Kashmiri militants have also resorted to similar techniques, often siezing religious shrines and holding people hostage. The Army had no choice but to storm the shrines often leading to civilian casualities and damage to the shrines. However, the onus lies with the militants who have no qualms in militarizing the shrines, rather than the security forces who have to commit to the thankless job of storming the religious shrines and flushing the militants out. The writ of the state had to be enforced, even if that translates into damaged property and dead people.

DCL, I disagree. All responsibility of Bluestar falls upon the central government since those militants were nothing but the same government's stooges not 3 years before '84! It was the state's responsibility to disarm the militants, but the central government armed them and provided political cover for them for 2 whole years. The central government dismissed the state government, banned elections, propped up militant fundamentalists like Bhinderenwala against the more popular Sikh moderates, the Akali party, and than when things turned sour, called in the army to take their own stooge out with artillery and tanks in the middle of a crowded city. How can they deny responsibility?

It's really no surprise that the Khalistani insurgency, which followed OpBluestar, was actually led by groups who were always opposed to and were bitter enemies of Bhinderenwala and the rest of the Golden Temple militants!

Deltacamelately
04 Oct 12,, 06:50
DCL, I disagree. All responsibility of Bluestar falls upon the central government since those militants were nothing but the same government's stooges not 3 years before '84! It was the state's responsibility to disarm the militants, but the central government armed them and provided political cover for them for 2 whole years. The central government dismissed the state government, banned elections, propped up militant fundamentalists like Bhinderenwala against the more popular Sikh moderates, the Akali party, and than when things turned sour, called in the army to take their own stooge out with artillery and tanks in the middle of a crowded city. How can they deny responsibility?

It's really no surprise that the Khalistani insurgency, which followed OpBluestar, was actually led by groups who were always opposed to and were bitter enemies of Bhinderenwala and the rest of the Golden Temple militants!
Tronic,

We are talking past each other. I have no doubts about the Congress goverment's ill conceived and draconian political gimmicks during those days.
You are free to put 100% responsibility on the Government and not even 1% on the militants. I'm okay with it.

However, I'll reiterate that the onus of Operation Blue Star doesn't lies on the security forces who had to commit to the thankless job of storming the shrine and flush out the militants, even if that translated into damaged property and dead people. You may max blame the Indian Army for not planning the operation more meticulously that could lessen the collateral damages. If our countrymen are proud that the InA doesn't indulges or takes political decissions, they must also understand that we are trained and tasked to establish the writ of the state, even if that requires disproportionate force.

Deltacamelately
04 Oct 12,, 08:40
The point is Major that in both cases, the protesters have stopped being civilians and had become the enemy. Chinese soldiers are human beings. They were trained, indoctrinated to protect the people. They were called the People's Liberation Army. Turning guns on your own people is not any more natural for Chinese soldiers than it was for Indian soldiers.

Until the protesters stopped being the people and became the enemy. The Chinese protesters spilled first blood and killed first. The regular Chinese soldier lost all inhibition to shoot them soon after that.
Sir,

I am afraid using this line of reasoning where mobs turn violent, all such protests could get bracketed with Operation Blue Star. Political protesters turning violent can not be equated with armed militants trained to kill a professional army. I could justify the PLA or the InA opening fire on both such protesters, but the protesters just can not be equated.

Officer of Engineers
04 Oct 12,, 13:19
I am afraid using this line of reasoning where mobs turn violent, all such protests could get bracketed with Operation Blue Star.They are. Look at Libya and Syria and even Iran. They started out as protests and proceeded to civil war. The difference with Iran ... and India and China is that they struck before the protesters could have gotten stronger.


Political protesters turning violent can not be equated with armed militants trained to kill a professional army.Major, both sets of protesters were in no position to challenge the national army. Both sets, however, were aiming to inspire an uprising that could.


I could justify the PLA or the InA opening fire on both such protesters, but the protesters just can not be equated.Militarily, no, but politically yes. Both sets were dictating terms to the national government. The students when meeting with the CCP trying to diffuse the situation said, "we're not here to negotiate. We're here to tell you what to do." If that didn't anger the CCP into deciding military force, then they should not have been in power.

One thing I want to make clear, Major. The governments of the West do not consider either Op BLUESTAR and Tianamen Square to be illegal actions.

Edit to add: In the case of Tianamen, history comes into play. The CCP was borned out of student protest movements. The old guard, especially Deng Xia Peng could recall how they plan their revolution in student group meetings.

Tronic
04 Oct 12,, 23:13
Tronic,

We are talking past each other. I have no doubts about the Congress goverment's ill conceived and draconian political gimmicks during those days.
You are free to put 100% responsibility on the Government and not even 1% on the militants. I'm okay with it.

However, I'll reiterate that the onus of Operation Blue Star doesn't lies on the security forces who had to commit to the thankless job of storming the shrine and flush out the militants, even if that translated into damaged property and dead people. You may max blame the Indian Army for not planning the operation more meticulously that could lessen the collateral damages. If our countrymen are proud that the InA doesn't indulges or takes political decissions, they must also understand that we are trained and tasked to establish the writ of the state, even if that requires disproportionate force.

DCL, The question has never been why the security forces assaulted the temple. The question is why did they wait 6 months to do so? Why did they pick the most holiest of days, when the shrine was packed with thousands of pilgrims from around the world? Why did they allow those pilgrims to even enter the temple when they knew they would be shelling that place with artillery the same night?

The point about militants barricading the temple is well understood and the militants are widely blamed, but that just doesn’t absolve the security forces of responsibility for carrying out such a callous operation which resulted in a massacre of innocent civilians.

Blademaster
05 Oct 12,, 01:43
Militarily, no, but politically yes. Both sets were dictating terms to the national government. The students when meeting with the CCP trying to diffuse the situation said, "we're not here to negotiate. We're here to tell you what to do." If that didn't anger the CCP into deciding military force, then they should not have been in power.

The students had no other choice. The CCP's behavior was "My way or the highway." They did not even tolerate dissent.




One thing I want to make clear, Major. The governments of the West do not consider either Op BLUESTAR and Tianamen Square to be illegal actions.


I am not so sure. After the Tianamen Square happened, China was immediately placed under embargo and sanctions. That means the western governments at that time considered the actions of Tianamen Square to be illegal and immoral.

Officer of Engineers
05 Oct 12,, 01:50
I am not so sure. After the Tianamen Square happened, China was immediately placed under embargo and sanctions. That means the western governments at that time considered the actions of Tianamen Square to be illegal and immoral.The action was brutal. Over aggressive. Most certainly over-reactive but what law was broken? Martial law was declared days before.

Deltacamelately
05 Oct 12,, 06:51
DCL, The question has never been why the security forces assaulted the temple. The question is why did they wait 6 months to do so? Why did they pick the most holiest of days, when the shrine was packed with thousands of pilgrims from around the world? Why did they allow those pilgrims to even enter the temple when they knew they would be shelling that place with artillery the same night?

The point about militants barricading the temple is well understood and the militants are widely blamed, but that just doesn’t absolve the security forces of responsibility for carrying out such a callous operation which resulted in a massacre of innocent civilians.
I sense you suspect foul play. I on my part believe believe that the Military could initiate armed action only after a draft political go ahead, neither before nor after.

Tronic
05 Oct 12,, 10:46
I sense you suspect foul play.

DCL, I’m not really ‘suspecting’ anything since it doesn’t really matter if it is deliberate foul play or a total indifference; the end result is the same. I mean, we had to agitate and fight for over two decades to even have the basic right of our language to be recognized, before which, the Indian government did not accord Punjabi any status in the constitution and Hindi was being forced in all of Punjab’s schools. The only other state which comes close to this agitation are the Tamils, yet the Tamils revolted despite already having their language recognized and only being asked to adopt Hindi as a secondary language! And that’s just one tiny example!


I on my part believe believe that the Military could initiate armed action only after a draft political go ahead, neither before nor after.

Well, that’s why you see the central government facing the brunt of the blame, the army is merely an extension of that government.

Secondly, I would love to get answers for those questions. The militants had to be killed, but why carry out an operation when civilian casualties would be the highest they could be? They had 6 months! Why not carry it out a week earlier? Or a week later? Why on a holy day when Golden Temple routinely hosts the highest number of pilgrims? The militants had already been choked off from water and food, so why not allow the pilgrims to exit? That's probably one of a kind operation where it was actually the army trapping the civilians in the middle of a planned warzone, rather than militants taking hostages. What's your take on these questions?

hammer
06 Oct 12,, 10:00
The only other state which comes close to this agitation are the Tamils, yet the Tamils revolted despite already having their language recognized and only being asked to adopt Hindi as a secondary language! And that’s just one tiny example!

A small correction. TN did not have a problem with Hindi being an "optional" second language course. The agitation was about "compulsory" teaching of Hindi in schools, which btw would also have affected the final scores of students. Even today, students have an option to choose Hindi or Tamil as their second language. And Hindi was/is being taught in private tuition centers all over TN.

Tronic
06 Oct 12,, 11:59
A small correction. TN did not have a problem with Hindi being an "optional" second language course.The agitation was about "compulsory" teaching of Hindi in schools, which btw would also have affected the final scores of students.

That's a given. I can't imagine an agitation being against an 'optional' teaching of a language. My old school (YPS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yadavindra_Public_School)) teaches French as an optional language, while Punjabi University Patiala has Farsi as an optional language. When I say, asked to 'adopt' a secondary language, naturally, it only means having it compulsorily taught in schools.

In retrospect, when it came to Punjab, the Indian central government did not recognize Punjabi as Punjab's language and forced Hindi to be taught in all of Punjab's schools as a compulsory primary language. It took 2 decades of agitation to finally get the central government to recognize Punjabi as Punjab's official language in 1966, and it was only very recently in 2008 that the compulsory teaching of Hindi in Punjab was revoked and Hindi made an optional language.


Even today, students have an option to choose Hindi or Tamil as their second language. And Hindi was/is being taught in private tuition centers all over TN.

I'm guessing you meant to say Hindi or English as their second language?

hammer
06 Oct 12,, 14:27
That's a given. I can't imagine an agitation being against an 'optional' teaching of a language. My old school (YPS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yadavindra_Public_School)) teaches French as an optional language, while Punjabi University Patiala has Farsi as an optional language. When I say, asked to 'adopt' a secondary language, naturally, it only means having it compulsorily taught in schools.

In retrospect, when it came to Punjab, the Indian central government did not recognize Punjabi as Punjab's language and forced Hindi to be taught in all of Punjab's schools as a compulsory primary language. It took 2 decades of agitation to finally get the central government to recognize Punjabi as Punjab's official language in 1966, and it was only very recently in 2008 that the compulsory teaching of Hindi in Punjab was revoked and Hindi made an optional language.


The then Central govt was experimenting with this idea of having Hindi as a common/official Indian language. Nothing wrong with that idea. The problem started when they wanted to do it immediately and enforced it on everybody. Fortunately, better sense prevailed and it was revoked. Interestingly Pakistan faced a similar problem in their Eastern wing and tried to deal with that problem with an iron hand and ended up alienating an big part of their population.

Bollywood movies did a much better job of popularizing Hindi in southern states, than any of those stupid ideas the erstwhile Congress govts came up with.




I'm guessing you meant to say Hindi or English as their second language?

Only in Govt run schools, where the primary medium of education is Tamil. All other schools have English as the primary, with Hindi or Tamil being their second language.

Tronic
06 Oct 12,, 21:18
The then Central govt was experimenting with this idea of having Hindi as a common/official Indian language. Nothing wrong with that idea. The problem started when they wanted to do it immediately and enforced it on everybody.

That depends on which side of the language debate you're on. The Tamils on the other Indian board are quite vigorous in their anti-Hindi stance, and I don't disagree with them. Linguistic imperialism is never a good idea for deeply pluralistic states. English should be kept the primary link language throughout India (as it is an internationally useful language) while the Hindi belt can keep their mother-tongue Hindi as their secondary language and the other states keep their own native tongues.



Fortunately, better sense prevailed and it was revoked. Interestingly Pakistan faced a similar problem in their Eastern wing and tried to deal with that problem with an iron hand and ended up alienating an big part of their population.

Pakistan hasn't really learned from that mistake. They never do.



Bollywood movies did a much better job of popularizing Hindi in southern states, than any of those stupid ideas the erstwhile Congress govts came up with.

I'm surprised since I normally find Tamil cinema churning out better movies than Bollywood. :biggrin:


Only in Govt run schools, where the primary medium of education is Tamil. All other schools have English as the primary, with Hindi or Tamil being their second language.

Ah, I see. That's actually not a bad idea. In Punjab, Punjabi is the primary language, no matter if they are public or private schools. English is the compulsory second language, and till 2008, Hindi too was compulsory but now it's given as optional. No wonder Indian kids are under so much school stress; they're normally learning 3 different languages by the 1st grade!

And I just realized, we've gone completely OT.

Deltacamelately
07 Oct 12,, 08:00
DCL, I’m not really ‘suspecting’ anything since it doesn’t really matter if it is deliberate foul play or a total indifference; the end result is the same. I mean, we had to agitate and fight for over two decades to even have the basic right of our language to be recognized, before which, the Indian government did not accord Punjabi any status in the constitution and Hindi was being forced in all of Punjab’s schools. The only other state which comes close to this agitation are the Tamils, yet the Tamils revolted despite already having their language recognized and only being asked to adopt Hindi as a secondary language! And that’s just one tiny example!

Punjab incidently isn't a special case in this, as the same was tried in various other states during the initial years of our nation building project. Yet, other's didn't resort to AK-47s to solve this problem, neither did they turn to one of our arch enemy to solve their problem. The rest of the country didn't take this very sympathetically.

Secondly, I would love to get answers for those questions. The militants had to be killed, but why carry out an operation when civilian casualties would be the highest they could be? They had 6 months! Why not carry it out a week earlier? Or a week later? Why on a holy day when Golden Temple routinely hosts the highest number of pilgrims? The militants had already been choked off from water and food, so why not allow the pilgrims to exit? That's probably one of a kind operation where it was actually the army trapping the civilians in the middle of a planned warzone, rather than militants taking hostages. What's your take on these questions?
Bad timing in terms of go ahead given. The Army didn't have a voice in this. Also, everybody I have spoken to involved in Op BS agrees that the chosen day was just a bad bad error, no deliberate plan to kill citizen. The InA never had a history of planning civilian kills.

Regarding not allowing exits, well the blame falls squarely on all three parties involved, the people, the militants and also the Army. The Army just didn't take the risk of allowing militants getting mixed up with the people. It was damn difficult to decide who's a militant and who's not.

[I would rather let the matter drop here. No point in digging the graves one more time. Let us agree to disagree]

Tronic
07 Oct 12,, 09:08
Punjab incidently isn't a special case in this, as the same was tried in various other states during the initial years of our nation building project. Yet, other's didn't resort to AK-47s to solve this problem, neither did they turn to one of our arch enemy to solve their problem. The rest of the country didn't take this very sympathetically.

Not a single Punjabi picked up an AK-47 due to the language, plus a whole list of other issues. Most of those issues remain till today and are still being fought politically as they had been since 1947-1984. The AKs only came out after Op Bluestar.


Bad timing in terms of go ahead given. The Army didn't have a voice in this. Also, everybody I have spoken to involved in Op BS agrees that the chosen day was just a bad bad error, no deliberate plan to kill citizen. The InA never had a history of planning civilian kills. Regarding not allowing exits, well the blame falls squarely on all three parties involved, the people, the militants and also the Army.

Than I hope you'll agree that those were some very incompetent commanders.


The Army just didn't take the risk of allowing militants getting mixed up with the people. It was damn difficult to decide who's a militant and who's not.

By not allowing the civilians to exit, they did just mix them both up.


[I would rather let the matter drop here. No point in digging the graves one more time. Let us agree to disagree]

Sure. Though I do hope when these things prop up time and again in the future, this angle isn't forgotten and the Sikh community squarely blamed for all things that went wrong in the '80s, as has already been done here on another thread.

lemontree
08 Oct 12,, 10:03
Rant? Operation Blue Star was the Indian equivalent of Tiananmen. And that's only if we downplay its significance.

Pardon me, but your anology is ignorant bull-shit.

Tiananmen was the use of force by the PLA against unarmed students, while Op Blue Star was to flush out fully armed terrorists holed-up in the Golden Temple. The Golden Temple was redesigned by the terrorists with pill boxes and machine gun nests.

lemontree
08 Oct 12,, 10:59
....the army was using 25 pounder artillery guns and mortars to shell the premises of the Golden Temple,....
I have immense respect for your knowledge, but mate you get blinded when Op Bluestar is mentioned. Please refrain from posting mis-infromation. 25 pounders were not used during the operation, but 3.7 inch howitzers belonging to the BSF were used to knock out the MG nests in the water tanks. To the best of my knowledge. Also no mortars were used, instead it was 106 mm RCLs.

The very fact that there were no shell craters after the operation knocks off this fallacy.


...where thousands of civilians were present!.....
10,000 to be exact...

By the 5th, the army had sent in APCs inside the temple, and by the morning of the 6th, Centurion tanks were being called in to directly shell the Akal Takth.

The APCs (not sure if these were Topaz or BMP-1s) were used as the MG nests were pouring murderous fire, but when the tracks of an APC were hit by a Chineese made RPG round, then tanks were called in.

The army used force as was required and dictated by the actions of the terrorist holed up inside.

In these 4 days of fighting, the thousands of civilians inside were cut off from water and food, and by eyewitness accounts, when a group of thirsty civilians stormed outside the temple to run to the pool for water, they were mowed down by army machine guns who mistakenly thought they were being assaulted.
That incident never took place.


Furthermore, Op Bluestar was not restricted to the Golden Temple and was a Punjab wide operation where Gurudwaras in all of Punjab were assaulted simultaneously. The white paper by the Indian government puts the figure at 42 Gurudwaras being assaulted, but the numbers are speculated to be about 3 dozen more.
Dont use wikipedia as your only source of information. Any Gurudwara that was found to be used as hideout and weapons dump was targetted.


This is the reason which led many Sikhs to believe that the Operation was actually an assault on their identity and a Psych Op sanctioned by the Congress government to suppress Punjab's political demands.
Op Bluestar was never and attack on the Sikhs, but on the sessionists demanding a separate state with the connivance of Pakistan.


...the manner of the operation becomes closer to Tienanmen when the callous regard for civilians in considered.
New reports say about 450 cicilians were killed. How many of these were killed by Khalistanis?...have you ever thought of that.
450 civilians out of 10,000 who were trapped means that 95.5% of the civilians were safe and alive after 5 days of heavy gun fire. Had the assaulting troops been callous about the civilians then there would have been many more dead. Dont belief the crap that is fed to you by the Khalistanis.

Blademaster
08 Oct 12,, 14:05
The action was brutal. Over aggressive. Most certainly over-reactive but what law was broken? Martial law was declared days before.

Were they lawful orders? After all, every officer and soldier in the western armies are trained and taught to disobey certain orders, especially after the Nuremberg trials. Declaring martial law does not in itself predicate a lawful order to shoot unarmed protesters. Otherwise, Al-Bassad regime of Syria and Gaddafi would easily get away with your parameters. Stop trying to find a loophole for the CCP while castigating others for not following the law.

Officer of Engineers
08 Oct 12,, 15:37
Were they lawful orders? After all, every officer and soldier in the western armies are trained and taught to disobey certain orders, especially after the Nuremberg trials. Declaring martial law does not in itself predicate a lawful order to shoot unarmed protesters.They were not unarmed and they spilt first blood.


Otherwise, Al-Bassad regime of Syria and Gaddafi would easily get away with your parameters.As did the Serbs in Kosovo and the Russians in Chechnya and the Indians in Kashmir. The only crime Qaddafy committed was that he lost. No one would have brought him before any court, even the street court had he won. The same with Saddam.


Stop trying to find a loophole for the CCP while castigating others for not following the law.There is no loophole. The protesters were given plenty of warning and they killed first. They were the ones who took off the gloves first. After that, they ceased being protesters and became an armed rebellion. Lethal force is a very viable and legal action, especially when defending a national right of power.

Ray
08 Oct 12,, 15:46
No artillery was used.

Ray
08 Oct 12,, 15:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGJoaHr2QdM

Tienanmen Square.

It is in Chinese.

Firestorm
08 Oct 12,, 20:11
Not a single Punjabi picked up an AK-47 due to the language, plus a whole list of other issues. Most of those issues remain till today and are still being fought politically as they had been since 1947-1984. The AKs only came out after Op Bluestar.


You talk as if Bluestar happened out of the blue (no pun intended) without any provocation. Why didn't the leaders of the Sikh community ever unambiguously condemn Bhindranwale and his activities? He turned the Golden Temple into a fortress and used the Akal Takht as an ammo dump. He and his militants added machine gun nests to it and used it as a base to challenge the authority of the state. They murdered an unarmed police officer (DIG Atwal) while he was praying in the temple. The Sikh community always says that the Indian Army desecrated their holiest site. Wasn't it already being desecrated on a daily basis by a man they now remember as a martyr instead of the monster that he was? Granted that if he was the monster, then Indira Gandhi was Dr. Frankenstein. Still no reason for the Sikh community to revere him.

Double Edge
08 Oct 12,, 23:37
Lt Gen Hoon disagrees that this was a planned attack by Khalistanis, because he thinks that had it been so, Gen Brar would've been dead: Ex-Army Lt. Gen. Hoon rules out Khalistani attack on Operation Blue Star hero (http://www.newstrackindia.com/newsdetails/2012/10/02/167-Ex-Army-Lt-Gen-Hoon-rules-out-Khalistani-attack-on-Operation-Blue-Star-hero.html)
Agree with what Hoon says.

4 guys, with a knife or was it more vs a 78 yr old.

The 78 yr old survived with minor injuries. I'm amazed.

Good on him.

Evidently the perps were afraid of being spotted. Other thing is if they were radicals they would have to be pretty good to know where the general would be at the right time and then some how botch the job. Does not add up.

Is this just a random mugging ?

Saw this (http://www.deccanherald.com/content/283675/massive-fund-raising-campaign-west.html) in my daily today. You can see the direction this is going in.


Brar has lived under category Z security in India for over 2 decades, so it was rather careless of him not to inform the high commission while he was in England.
Yep

Private visit, he must have figured it'd be safe.

Was a bit shocked & saddenned to read about this incident a few days ago.

Tronic
09 Oct 12,, 01:50
I have immense respect for your knowledge, but mate you get blinded when Op Bluestar is mentioned.

You know very well I have been most vigorous in criticizing the separatists and have actively countered Khalistani propaganda even here on WAB. Since I'm starting to see a complete vilification of one side happening amongst many Indians here and elsewhere while viewing things through a black or white perspective. I feel it's only fair if both perspectives are presented forward. In doing so, you may feel that I am biased in my views, and I won't contest that, being a Punjabi Sikh, and a Jatt Sikh at that, but than, I feel most folks on this thread also realize that they are no less biased towards a particular side.

I may be playing the Devil's advocate here, and in doing so, I realize it brings up a totally different perspective and difficult questions which, either can't be answered, or are tried to brush aside and shove under the carpet.



Please refrain from posting mis-infromation. 25 pounders were not used during the operation, but 3.7 inch howitzers belonging to the BSF were used to knock out the MG nests in the water tanks. To the best of my knowledge. Also no mortars were used, instead it was 106 mm RCLs.

What is 'misinformation'? I'm using whatever is available in open source accounts to come to my conclusions, which sadly, thanks to the Indian government's media blackout, does not include the free media. By many accounts, 25 pounders and mortars were used. In the end, it does not really matter. The end result and the narrative is the same.



The very fact that there were no shell craters after the operation knocks off this fallacy.

And how are you concluding that there were no shell craters after the operation? :confused:



The APCs (not sure if these were Topaz or BMP-1s) were used as the MG nests were pouring murderous fire, but when the tracks of an APC were hit by a Chineese made RPG round, then tanks were called in.

Yes, I also got that much from General Brar's interview.



The army used force as was required and dictated by the actions of the terrorist holed up inside.

General Brar thought of the safety of his troops above all else. Fair enough.



That incident never took place.

You're in no position to make such a statement. I can post a dozen youtube videos of interviews with the civilians that were present inside the temple during Operation Bluestar. You're free to call them all liars, but than, they were the ones who were there, they lost family members, they are living today physically scarred and handicapped for the rest of their lives.



Dont use wikipedia as your only source of information. Any Gurudwara that was found to be used as hideout and weapons dump was targetted.

You forget, our parents lived in Punjab, through those times. They did not get their daily news from the state newspaper.



Op Bluestar was never and attack on the Sikhs, but on the sessionists demanding a separate state with the connivance of Pakistan.

I'm not the one you have to convince.



New reports say about 450 cicilians were killed. How many of these were killed by Khalistanis?...have you ever thought of that.
450 civilians out of 10,000 who were trapped means that 95.5% of the civilians were safe and alive after 5 days of heavy gun fire.

450 is the government's figure. Independent Western sources put the figure closer to a 1000 civilians killed. Sikh separatist organizations put the figure in multiple thousands. I don't trust either the government's figure, nor the Sikh separatist's figures. Why not? Because they haven't earned that trust. Not even 3 decades after that operation.



Had the assaulting troops been callous about the civilians then there would have been many more dead. Dont belief the crap that is fed to you by the Khalistanis.

There were indeed more dead. I don't believe in the crap that is fed to me by Khalistanis, but you too shouldn't believe the crap fed to you by the state media. Cheers!

Tronic
09 Oct 12,, 02:17
You talk as if Bluestar happened out of the blue (no pun intended) without any provocation. Why didn't the leaders of the Sikh community ever unambiguously condemn Bhindranwale and his activities? He turned the Golden Temple into a fortress and used the Akal Takht as an ammo dump. He and his militants added machine gun nests to it and used it as a base to challenge the authority of the state. They murdered an unarmed police officer (DIG Atwal) while he was praying in the temple. The Sikh community always says that the Indian Army desecrated their holiest site. Wasn't it already being desecrated on a daily basis by a man they now remember as a martyr instead of the monster that he was? Granted that if he was the monster, then Indira Gandhi was Dr. Frankenstein. Still no reason for the Sikh community to revere him.


You don't know what you're talking about. It was none other than the Sikh Akalis who were condemning him. They condemned him all along, from his days as a Congress stooge, to his time at the Golden Temple. Infact, it was none other than the Sikh Akali leader Tohra who went into the temple in the middle of the operation to try and convince him to either lay down his arms or take the fight outside the temple.

As for Sikh youth revering him today. I know he was a very controversial and disliked figure throughout the 90s as I was growing up, but with time, he has been turned into a hero by the newer generations, simply because none of Punjab's political grievances have been heard, and the youth have started to see him as someone who rightfully fought for their rights.

As LT says, don't believe in all the crap fed to you by one side. :rolleyes:



Agree with what Hoon says.

4 guys, with a knife or was it more vs a 78 yr old.

The 78 yr old survived with minor injuries. I'm amazed.

Good on him.

Evidently the perps were afraid of being spotted. Other thing is if they were radicals they would have to be pretty good to know where the general would be at the right time and then some how botch the job. Does not add up.

Is this just a random mugging ?

Two people have been caught. They are indeed Sikhs, but the charges against them have been softened from "intent to murder" to "intent to cause bodily harm". It doesn't look the two arrested men are linked to any group, and most likely this was a random revenge attack on Brar. I'm guessing he was spotted by someone who recognized him, wrong place at the wrong time, and the stabbings were an unplanned hate attack.


Saw this (http://www.deccanherald.com/content/283675/massive-fund-raising-campaign-west.html) in my daily today. You can see the direction this is going in.

I honestly believe that this is nothing more than propaganda to rile up feelings by giving it a nefarious Pakistani-Sikh angle. I would've believed this to be true had this been a decade from today, but things are not the same in the West. The Gurudwaras in the West are slowly being taken over by the Sikh youth, born and bred in the West. I know this is the case in North America. The theme of the Gurudwaras has gone from staunchly anti-India, pro-Khalistan rally points, towards a reorientation focusing more on the Sikh faith and spirituality itself. Canadian and American born Sikhs are not very interested with Indian Punjab anymore, and look at it as a lost cause. They are more oriented towards preserving their identity, and I know most Sikh missions even in Punjab today are missionary in nature and are far from politics. The Punjabi SGPC on the other hand, is the total opposite!

lemontree
09 Oct 12,, 09:36
You know very well I have been most vigorous in criticizing the separatists and have actively countered Khalistani propaganda even here on WAB. Since I'm starting to see a complete vilification of one side happening amongst many Indians here and elsewhere while viewing things through a black or white perspective. I feel it's only fair if both perspectives are presented forward. In doing so, you may feel that I am biased in my views, and I won't contest that, being a Punjabi Sikh, and a Jatt Sikh at that, but than, I feel most folks on this thread also realize that they are no less biased towards a particular side.

I may be playing the Devil's advocate here, and in doing so, I realize it brings up a totally different perspective and difficult questions which, either can't be answered, or are tried to brush aside and shove under the carpet.
Tronic, be the devils advocate by all means, but just as you blame the other Indians on WAB for being pro-Op Bluestar, the others increasingly see your views as pro-Khalistani.


What is 'misinformation'? I'm using whatever is available in open source accounts to come to my conclusions, which sadly, thanks to the Indian government's media blackout, does not include the free media. By many accounts, 25 pounders and mortars were used. In the end, it does not really matter. The end result and the narrative is the same.

The open media sources that state this are pro-Khalistani/anti-Indian.


And how are you concluding that there were no shell craters after the operation? :confused:
I was old enough to see the TV footage, but you would not believe me, so check out an "open source" website that has a lot of pictures of the aftermath of the operation - Operation Blue Star 1984 Golden Temple Attack Sikhs (http://www.sikhmuseum.com/bluestar/photographs/index.html)

See if you can spot any shell craters on the floor around the holy pond.


You're in no position to make such a statement. I can post a dozen youtube videos of interviews with the civilians that were present inside the temple during Operation Bluestar. You're free to call them all liars, but than, they were the ones who were there, they lost family members, they are living today physically scarred and handicapped for the rest of their lives.
I'm giving you first hand accounts from what I learnt from soldiers and officers who took part in the operation.
Regarding the IA being callous...I'll give you a real account of "how callous" they were. Judge for yourself. The RMO (Regt medical officer) of one of the infantry battalions (I forget his name, but he was from Lima Batch AFMC, was my father's student during his MOBC course), saw a wounded terrorist, and went to attend to his wounds. Suddenly from one of the rooms (along the side walls of the complex), a couple of other terrorists jumped him and his nursing assistant (NA). The NA was shot and the RMOs arms where chopped with a sword. He later died of blood loss. I'm sure you would have not heard these aspects of the battle either.

Read this article and you will get some idea of the thought process that went in to the operation - Bluestar: 'Right decision, wrong implementation' (http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/sep/14pca.htm)


You forget, our parents lived in Punjab, through those times. They did not get their daily news from the state newspaper.
That is why I am trying to fill in the gaps for you.


I'm not the one you have to convince.
By the looks of it you need the most healing. You are very hurt and the information of whatever has been told to you about the operation has only festered your emotional wounds. There are others like you too. But I can reach out only to you.


450 is the government's figure. Independent Western sources put the figure closer to a 1000 civilians killed. Sikh separatist organizations put the figure in multiple thousands.
If you want to go by western sources, then also 90% of the civilians were saved by the IA. This figure is much better than the rescue operations carried out by the Spetsnaz in the Moscow theater siege or the Belsan school incident.


Why not? Because they haven't earned that trust. Not even 3 decades after that operation.
No, because they have more faith in the separatists and their issues. As long as people take the side of convicts like Rajhona then they remain on the other side of the fence. It is these very people who go hunting for retired policemen to avenge the arrests and execution of assasins (refer to the retired hangman who executed the assasins of former COAS Gen AK Vaidya).


....I don't believe in the crap that is fed to me by Khalistanis, but you too shouldn't believe the crap fed to you by the state media. Cheers!
Most of what I have given you is 1st hand information from people who took part in that operation.

Double Edge
09 Oct 12,, 15:11
I honestly believe that this is nothing more than propaganda to rile up feelings by giving it a nefarious Pakistani-Sikh angle.
What that PTI articles does not specify is when the IB director made that statement. Turns out it was on Sept 6 as an inauguration speech (http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20120907/main1.htm) of the DGP/IGP conference. Note that the Tribune article does not explicitly quote him mentioning the ISI. Unfortunately have not managed to locate IB Director Sandhu's exact speech from that conference. The IB has no official website.

Wrt to the minister of state for home affairs Jitendra Singh who makes the ISI connection as quoted in that PTI article, its in his reply (http://164.100.47.132/LssNew/psearch/QResult15.aspx?qref=127871) given during question hour on Sep 4 in the Lok Sabha .

Is this propaganda and if so whose (http://www.deccanherald.com/content/283945/attack-lt-gen-brar-reflects.html) propaganda is it ?


Chief minister Parkash Singh Badal discounts the political overtones surrounding the attack on Lt Gen Brar as a deliberate attempt of the Congress party to distract the attention of public from the multi lakh crore scams including the Coalgate. “Earlier, they tried to distract public by opening FDI in retail sector and now they have raised the bogey of militancy,” the chief minister said. The fact is Lt Gen Brar is a protectee of the Union home ministry and any attack on him reflects the failure of the Union government and not of the Punjab police, he maintains.

Thing is propaganda happens between the govt and the people. I find it strange that the IB director would resort to it in front of DGP & IGP's. Or that a minister would tender the same during question hour.


I would've believed this to be true had this been a decade from today, but things are not the same in the West.
A decade from today is 2022, what you meant to say is a decade ago ie 2002.


The Gurudwaras in the West are slowly being taken over by the Sikh youth, born and bred in the West. I know this is the case in North America. The theme of the Gurudwaras has gone from staunchly anti-India, pro-Khalistan rally points, towards a reorientation focusing more on the Sikh faith and spirituality itself. Canadian and American born Sikhs are not very interested with Indian Punjab anymore, and look at it as a lost cause. They are more oriented towards preserving their identity, and I know most Sikh missions even in Punjab today are missionary in nature and are far from politics. The Punjabi SGPC on the other hand, is the total opposite!
The SGPC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SGPC)...

is an organization in India responsible for the upkeep of gurdwaras, Sikh places of worship in three states of Punjab, Haryana and Himachal Pradesh. SGPC also administers Harmandir Sahib in Amritsar. Gurdwaras in Delhi are the administered by Delhi Sikh Gurudwara Management Committee. These committees are composed of officials elected in open conclaves held at Harmandir Sahib in which all Sikhs may participate.

You're saying the SGPC is radical ?


The question is
- why did they wait 6 months to do so? Why did they pick the most holiest of days, when the shrine was packed with thousands of pilgrims from around the world?
- Why did they allow those pilgrims to even enter the temple when they knew they would be shelling that place with artillery the same night?


Secondly, I would love to get answers for those questions. The militants had to be killed, but
- why carry out an operation when civilian casualties would be the highest they could be? They had 6 months! Why not carry it out a week earlier? Or a week later?

- Why on a holy day when Golden Temple routinely hosts the highest number of pilgrims?
The militants had already been choked off from water and food, so why not allow the pilgrims to exit? That's probably one of a kind operation where it was actually the army trapping the civilians in the middle of a planned warzone, rather than militants taking hostages. What's your take on these questions?
Answers to the above may be forthcoming if you manage to track down Brar's '93 book on the operation.

Operation Blue Star: The True Story (UBS Publishers, 1993)

Ray
09 Oct 12,, 19:19
being a Punjabi Sikh, and a Jatt Sikh at that

With all due regards to you, I find that a very callous statement to put it mildly.

May I remind you that you would not have been a Sikh in the first place, Jat or otherwise, but for Guru Nanak who was of a Hindu Khatri family in the village of Rāi Bhōi dī Talwandī.

Note Khatri! A Khatri by caste of the Bedi clan.

I believe all the Sikh Gurus were Khatris.

Guru Nanak was a Bedi, Guru Angad was a Trehan, Guru Amar Das was a Bhalla, and the rest of the Gurus were Sodhis.

During the lifetime of the Gurus, most of their major supporters and Sikhs were Khatris. A list of this is provided by Bhai Gurdas in Varan Bhai Gurdas, a contemporary of the Sikh Gurus.

This is what I learn and maybe I am wrong and you can correct me.

May I request that you temper down the issue even though I will concede that 7 of the 12 Sikh Misls were headed by the Jat Sikhs.

The issue to remember is that if there was no Guru Nanak, a Khatri, there would be no Sikh religion.

So don't hurt the sentiments of others!

Tronic
09 Oct 12,, 21:20
With all due regards to you, I find that a very callous statement to put it mildly.

May I remind you that you would not have been a Sikh in the first place, Jat or otherwise, but for Guru Nanak who was of a Hindu Khatri family in the village of Rāi Bhōi dī Talwandī.

Note Khatri! A Khatri by caste of the Bedi clan.

I believe all the Sikh Gurus were Khatris.

Guru Nanak was a Bedi, Guru Angad was a Trehan, Guru Amar Das was a Bhalla, and the rest of the Gurus were Sodhis.

During the lifetime of the Gurus, most of their major supporters and Sikhs were Khatris. A list of this is provided by Bhai Gurdas in Varan Bhai Gurdas, a contemporary of the Sikh Gurus.

This is what I learn and maybe I am wrong and you can correct me.

May I request that you temper down the issue even though I will concede that 7 of the 12 Sikh Misls were headed by the Jat Sikhs.

The issue to remember is that if there was no Guru Nanak, a Khatri, there would be no Sikh religion.

So don't hurt the sentiments of others!


Brigadier Ray, I'm amused. I've only mentioned that since I believe it is only you who always seem to stress upon the "Jatt Sikh" identity of the militants. I'm the last person to indulge in divisions based on clans, race, religion or even nationality. My ex-girlfriend, who I had been with for almost 5 years, was a Muslim Pakistani. So don't blame me for hurting the sentiments of others, when forget Jatt clans, you have even preached me about differences between Grewal Jatts and other Jatt clans on another forum. You're an elder to me, so I do respect you, but I will not take an attack on my character kindly.

Tronic
09 Oct 12,, 23:16
What that PTI articles does not specify is when the IB director made that statement. Turns out it was on Sept 6 as an inauguration speech (http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20120907/main1.htm) of the DGP/IGP conference. Note that the Tribune article does not explicitly quote him mentioning the ISI. Unfortunately have not managed to locate IB Director Sandhu's exact speech from that conference. The IB has no official website.

Wrt to the minister of state for home affairs Jitendra Singh who makes the ISI connection as quoted in that PTI article, its in his reply (http://164.100.47.132/LssNew/psearch/QResult15.aspx?qref=127871) given during question hour on Sep 4 in the Lok Sabha .

Is this propaganda and if so whose (http://www.deccanherald.com/content/283945/attack-lt-gen-brar-reflects.html) propaganda is it ?


Thanks for tracking it down. Now realize that both those stories have been reprinted as flashing headlines on October 7th! What's the motive behind reprinting and re-flashing a month old news as the current headline? And by the way, Deccan Herald is not the only one which did it, but pretty much all major Indian newspapers and even television media reflashed that headline!

It is ironical that they are constantly pointing fingers at the Sikh diaspora while a train from Pakistan to Punjab has just been found with crores worth of drugs and ammunition. Pointing fingers at the Sikh diaspora is nothing more than the government deflecting blame of it's own shortcomings in Punjab. The cross-border drug trafficking in Punjab from Pakistan is worth billions and is done under the noses of corrupt BSF officials and the drug enforcement agencies. That same drug money is likely financing the arms and ammunition trickling into Punjab, as those weapons caches are constantly discovered alongside large amounts of drug caches. Instead of pointing fingers at foreign boogeymen, the government should fix up its own shortcomings.



Thing is propaganda happens between the govt and the people. I find it strange that the IB director would resort to it in front of DGP & IGP's. Or that a minister would tender the same during question hour.

India is not a very transparent country, so as long as what is said is in the public domain and in front of media, it is a message to the people. An IB director does not give a public brief to DGP and IGPs.



A decade from today is 2022, what you meant to say is a decade ago ie 2002.

Thanks for the correction. You get what I mean...


The SGPC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SGPC)...

is an organization in India responsible for the upkeep of gurdwaras, Sikh places of worship in three states of Punjab, Haryana and Himachal Pradesh. SGPC also administers Harmandir Sahib in Amritsar. Gurdwaras in Delhi are the administered by Delhi Sikh Gurudwara Management Committee. These committees are composed of officials elected in open conclaves held at Harmandir Sahib in which all Sikhs may participate.

You're saying the SGPC is radical ?

I think they are opportunists, and I'll leave it at that. What I was trying to imply is that SGPC is political in nature, while the foreign Sikh organizations are more missionary in nature.



Answers to the above may be forthcoming if you manage to track down Brar's '93 book on the operation.

Operation Blue Star: The True Story (UBS Publishers, 1993)

DE, I'll definitely give it a read, but you have to take it with a pinch of salt. This is the same army which imposed a ban on the media and shipped the journalists out of Punjab on buses.

Tronic
10 Oct 12,, 01:45
Tronic, be the devils advocate by all means, but just as you blame the other Indians on WAB for being pro-Op Bluestar,

I have not "blamed" anyone on WAB for being anything, LT. Everyone has their own perspectives, narratives and biases, not excluding myself, and I'm only challenging those narratives. Resorting to labels such as "pro" or "anti" something so deep into the middle of a discussion would be nothing but petty.



the others increasingly see your views as pro-Khalistani.

I'll take it that you're referring to yourself here.

Is that somehow suppose to deter me from criticizing the army and/or the government?

It's that attitude which has constantly suppressed the Sikh voices in Delhi when they clamour for justice. When the blow back is seen in cases like Rajoana, the finger is again pointed towards the Sikhs.



The open media sources that state this are pro-Khalistani/anti-Indian.

Than let's stick with what Shekhar Gupta has reported, and General Brar has admitted. Artillery and Tanks were used.


I was old enough to see the TV footage, but you would not believe me, so check out an "open source" website that has a lot of pictures of the aftermath of the operation - Operation Blue Star 1984 Golden Temple Attack Sikhs (http://www.sikhmuseum.com/bluestar/photographs/index.html)

See if you can spot any shell craters on the floor around the holy pond.

I hope you do realize that the first picture is merely a reference picture of the undestroyed compound and not of operation Bluestar.

Only army photographers were allowed inside so the pictures are restricted, and do not show the entire compound but nevertheless, it's enough to gauge the use of heavy weapons;

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/856/pc1r.png

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/197/pc4r.png

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/687/pc5i.png

That's some small arms fire, LT... In a place hosting 10,000 civilians.



I'm giving you first hand accounts from what I learnt from soldiers and officers who took part in the operation.
Regarding the IA being callous...I'll give you a real account of "how callous" they were. Judge for yourself. The RMO (Regt medical officer) of one of the infantry battalions (I forget his name, but he was from Lima Batch AFMC, was my father's student during his MOBC course), saw a wounded terrorist, and went to attend to his wounds. Suddenly from one of the rooms (along the side walls of the complex), a couple of other terrorists jumped him and his nursing assistant (NA). The NA was shot and the RMOs arms where chopped with a sword. He later died of blood loss. I'm sure you would have not heard these aspects of the battle either.

The RMO's actions are commendable. I'm not the one seeing this as black and white as you are. The soldiers on the frontlines are also human. I'm not in the business of demonizing anyone. If the soldiers mow down unarmed civilians rushing for water, it's only because of their survival instincts kicking in after being thrown into a pressure cooker situation by their incompetent commanders despite them being, "massacred wave after wave", as General Brar put it.

It's the military commanders and the central government on whose head I'm putting the 1000 dead civilians.


Read this article and you will get some idea of the thought process that went in to the operation - Bluestar: 'Right decision, wrong implementation' (http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/sep/14pca.htm)

He's a Congress loyal man, so he's shifting the whole blame away from the Congress and onto the army, but regardless, the article only reinforces my point. The Operation was a fcuk up by some very incompetent commanders who had all the time in the world to plan it.


That is why I am trying to fill in the gaps for you.

And I'm trying to explain to you that you cannot fill in the gaps, because you do not know any more than the common man on the street. Your only access to information was the same government which was carrying out an information blackout in Punjab. As for trickling down information from army circles, I've had enough family in the army to know how much of that information is reality and how much hearsay.


By the looks of it you need the most healing. You are very hurt and the information of whatever has been told to you about the operation has only festered your emotional wounds. There are others like you too. But I can reach out only to you.

I need the most healing? Mate, try Punjab!

The circumstances surrounding Operation Bluestar can be very well understood. If you genuinely wish to heal over 20 million of your countrymen's emotional wounds, than start writing to your MLAs, MPs and other constituency heads and start demanding justice for the '84 pogroms.



If you want to go by western sources, then also 90% of the civilians were saved by the IA. This figure is much better than the rescue operations carried out by the Spetsnaz in the Moscow theater siege or the Belsan school incident.

The civilians at the Golden Temple didn't need to be "saved", they could've easily walked out of the temple. They were not being held hostages. I think you mean to say that the Indian army managed not to kill 90% of civilians, since "saving" the civilians was never the intent of that operation. (And that 90% figure only looks good when you're talking about a group of 10 or even 100 people, not when you're talking about 10,000 people!)

You can't compare Moscow theatre siege and Beslan school incident with Bluestar. The former were pre-planned and rigged operations by terrorists to deliberately kill civilians who were being held hostage, while Bluestar resulted in a 1000 dead civilians who were free to walk out of the Temple but were disallowed to by the security forces. Apples and Oranges.



No, because they have more faith in the separatists and their issues. As long as people take the side of convicts like Rajhona then they remain on the other side of the fence.

Distrusting the Indian government does not mean trusting the separatists. Punish the '84 pogroms culprits and you'll regain the trust of Sikhs and folks such as Rajoana won't matter. You keep forgetting that it's the Sikhs who have gotten the shorter end of the stick, not the other way around.


It is these very people who go hunting for retired policemen to avenge the arrests and execution of assasins (refer to the retired hangman who executed the assasins of former COAS Gen AK Vaidya).

Now you have turned them into boogeymen. They are normal people who feel they have been wronged and distrust the Indian government with good reason.

The moment Sikhs start to criticize the government or army, they are quickly vilified and clubbed together with extremists.

Well, here are your "extremist radical bloodthirsty" Sikh youth mate:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrtgyoOEB0s

The events of '84 have been etched into the identity of the next gen Sikh youth mate. The Indian government should start taking steps to address the grievances and make up for the wrongs while they still have time, before Tytler and company pass away natural deaths, and the separatists get a permanent cause to rally around.


Most of what I have given you is 1st hand information from people who took part in that operation.

I have already touched on this, but let me just add, 1st hand information from an army which carried out an information blackout.

Officer of Engineers
10 Oct 12,, 03:49
Only army photographers were allowed inside so the pictures are restricted, and do not show the entire compound but nevertheless, it's enough to gauge the use of heavy weapons;I see MG damage. I don't see mortar nor any indirect weapons damage.

Tronic, there is no way to hide craters. The best you can do is refill it with quick drying cement but the area is extremely noticeable and any high school chemist can detect blast residues.

Tronic, I am Canadian and I am ethnic Chinese. I have no dog in this fight. If you are willing to provide photographic evidence to your claims, I will look at it.

But at this point, I have no reason to doubt the InA.

Tronic
10 Oct 12,, 04:24
I see MG damage. I don't see mortar nor any indirect weapons damage.

Tronic, there is no way to hide craters. The best you can do is refill it with quick drying cement but the area is extremely noticeable and any high school chemist can detect blast residues.

Tronic, I am Canadian and I am ethnic Chinese. I have no dog in this fight. If you are willing to provide photographic evidence to your claims, I will look at it.

But at this point, I have no reason to doubt the InA.

Sir, the only pictures are of those released by the army, but regardless, General Brar has himself went on record several times and admitted that tanks were used. I'm sure marble would not be able to withstand the weight of a tank either, but we do not have pictures of the entire compound. Only a portion, which are released by the army. I'm not able to find an old interview of his on youtube, but here's a excerpt from a very recent interview of his conducted after this recent attack on him:



Journo: I’ve had a strong personal professional view that the one big blunder that all of you made in Operation Blue Star was throwing the media out. Although you did not manage to quite throw me out. I stayed back and for a while all of you complained about the fact that I stayed back. If I may say so, it was we who first revealed the fact that you used tanks and artillery. Was the idea that somehow it will remain hidden from the rest of the country that you used tanks and artillery?

General Brar: I don’t know what the idea really was because this was something that my superiors thought of. But I agree with you that the media must remain there. They must see everything. And I think that after that we have learnt a lesson.

‘It was wrong to keep media out of Amritsar during Op Blue Star. Without them, there were rumours and a lot of mutinies’ - Indian Express (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/-it-was-wrong-to-keep-media-out-of-amritsar-during-op-blue-star.-without-them-there-were-rumours-and-a-lot-of-mutinies-/1013785/4)

Officer of Engineers
10 Oct 12,, 04:27
Sir, General Brar has himself went on record several times and admitted that tanks were used. I'm not able to find an old interview of his on youtube, but here's a excerpt from a very recent interview of his conducted after this recent attack on him:That fits what you have shown me. Direct weapons fire. You've stated artillery and I have not seen it.

Firestorm
10 Oct 12,, 04:32
Sir, General Brar has himself went on record several times and admitted that tanks were used. I'm not able to find an old interview of his on youtube, but here's a excerpt from a very recent interview of his conducted after this recent attack on him:

So how do you suggest that the IA soldiers should have shielded themselves from the MG nests that were mowing them down without APC's and tanks? Captain LT already explained why tanks were brought in, in a previous post.


The APCs (not sure if these were Topaz or BMP-1s) were used as the MG nests were pouring murderous fire, but when the tracks of an APC were hit by a Chineese made RPG round, then tanks were called in.

In all the posts criticizing the IA and comparing the operation with Tiananmen square, people conveniently choose to ignore the kind of adversary that the IA was facing. These were trained militants carrying assault rifles and were organized and led by an combat experienced ex-IA Major General .

Officer of Engineers
10 Oct 12,, 04:39
Were they lawful orders? After all, every officer and soldier in the western armies are trained and taught to disobey certain orders, especially after the Nuremberg trials. Declaring martial law does not in itself predicate a lawful order to shoot unarmed protesters. Otherwise, Al-Bassad regime of Syria and Gaddafi would easily get away with your parameters. Stop trying to find a loophole for the CCP while castigating others for not following the law.Actually, you are right. Chinese law was broken. 38GA MGen Xu Qinxian was relieved because he refused to deploy.

Gen Cao, 2 decades later, reaffirm the legality to refuse such an order.

You will have to walk me through this. If I read this right, an illegal order to deploy does not mean the order for lethal force is illegal. The Chinese do not follow common law and thus, I am at a loss to understand this all.

Tronic
10 Oct 12,, 04:46
That fits what you have shown me. Direct weapons fire. You've stated artillery and I have not seen it.

Sir, it was Shekhar Gupta of India today who reported the use of artillery, and while the India Today does not host archives on it's site, it does mention in a later article that;


Foot soldiers marching towards the Akal Takht ran into heavy machine-gun barrage from the Harmandir Sahib. Artillery pounded the Akal Takht and the heavily fortified piliboxes on the top of the 18th century towers and the langar building.
How Operation Bluestar was carried out? : Latest Headlines, News - India Today (http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/How+Operation+Bluestar+was+carried+out/1/44978.html)


Anyways doing some digging, here is a reproduction of Gupta's original article, but, by a Sikh site, so take it as you may;


The commanders were now faced with a terribly difficult situation. The dawn was not too far away and as a senior officer recalls, once the place was lighted, each of the nearly 1800 troops inside the Parikarma could have been picked out by snipers. This is when tanks of the 16 Cavalry were asked to come in. The tank-men were initially told to use only the “secondary armament” meaning thereby the machine-gun on the turret. Later however the main gun was used too.

Simultaneously an artillery colonel was asked to take an ancient 3.7 inch howitzer atop a tall building overlooking the Akal Takht. Officers explain the howitzer was chosen for shelling since it can fire straight on-horizontally, promising greater accuracy at close range. Initially the artillery men tried to mount the gun atop the building of a nationalised bank. But in spite of generous help from the scores of civilians it proved impossible to haul up the heavy artillery piece with ropes. Later another building was chosen. To ensure that the aim was accurate, the gunners first fired smoke shells, then the real fireworks began.

Sikh Roots - Sikh Roots - Operation Bluestar: Night Of Blood (http://www.sikhroots.com/sikh-literature/operation-bluestar/3040-operation-bluestar-night-of-blood.html)


And most importantly, the General has never denied the use of artillery.

Tronic
10 Oct 12,, 04:55
So how do you suggest that the IA soldiers should have shielded themselves from the MG nests that were mowing them down without APC's and tanks? Captain LT already explained why tanks were brought in, in a previous post.

And for the nth time, it's not about the APCs or tanks, but the civilians! The timing of the operation on a day when the place was packed with pilgrims! They had 6 months, and they chose the one day which would result in the highest number of people caught in the crossfire. It reeks of incompetency.

Officer of Engineers
10 Oct 12,, 04:57
And most importantly, the General has never denied the use of artillery.That is not evidence. I don't deny aliens helped Canada during WWII. I just ignore such claims.

However, the point remains, you cannot hide a crater. You can refill it, pave over it, and then pretend it doesn't exist. However, given that the temple is now in Sikh civilian hands and with such eye witness accounts, it is not hard to dig up the supposed crater and submit the dirt for forensic evidence.

Tronic
10 Oct 12,, 05:03
That is not evidence. I don't deny aliens helped Canada during WWII. I just ignore such claims.

However, the point remains, you cannot hide a crater. You can refill it, pave over it, and then pretend it doesn't exist. However, given that the temple is now in Sikh civilian hands and with such eye witness accounts, it is not hard to dig up the supposed crater and submit the dirt for forensic evidence.

We haven't been able to get justice after digging up mass graves in Haryana, so I doubt digging up craters will do much good. Though I'll concede that point. But sir, does that change the discourse of this discussion?

Officer of Engineers
10 Oct 12,, 05:12
But sir, does that change the discourse of this discussion?I don't know.

I don't have a dog in this fight ... and I don't have a a dog in Tienanmen Square nor Libya nor Syria nor Chechnya ... though I do have a dog in the Kosovo fight. The KLA is a drug smuggling, gun running, child prostitution ring.

What I really want to do here is to present the evidence to your side - to provide a balance view. That the army fucked up ... but thus far, you have not presented anything that the army has not already admitted that they fucked up.

lemontree
10 Oct 12,, 05:36
I'll take it that you're referring to yourself here.
Is that somehow suppose to deter me from criticizing the army and/or the government?
We are a democracy and you are free to speak and be critical of the army or government, but when you defend and justify a terrorist like Rajhona...you put yourself on the other side of the fence.


It's that attitude which has constantly suppressed the Sikh voices in Delhi when they clamour for justice. When the blow back is seen in cases like Rajoana, the finger is again pointed towards the Sikhs.
Then focus on getting the culprits of 1984 riots, don't defend convicted terrorists. The moment you defend convicted terrorists you become no different than the Hurriayat that defends Afzal guru.


Than let's stick with what Shekhar Gupta has reported, and General Brar has admitted. Artillery and Tanks were used.
3.7 inch howitzers is an arty weapon and was used to hit the MG nests on the water towers.


I hope you do realize that the first picture is merely a reference picture of the undestroyed compound and not of operation Bluestar.
Only army photographers were allowed inside so the pictures are restricted, and do not show the entire compound but nevertheless, it's enough to gauge the use of heavy weapons;
That's some small arms fire, LT... In a place hosting 10,000 civilians.
Those are smalls arms and direct fire weapon marks. OOE has already explained to you.
I have given you the best proof that you can get, and you still dont believe...!!!!


It's the military commanders and the central government on whose head I'm putting the 1000 dead civilians.
....and you put no blame on Bhindranwale and his gang. They were given ample opportunity to let the pilgrims go, but they kept them as human shields.

He's a Congress loyal man, so he's shifting the whole blame away from the Congress and onto the army, but regardless, the article only reinforces my point. The Operation was a fcuk up by some very incompetent commanders who had all the time in the world to plan it.
Whatever be his loyalties, the article shows that there was no anti-Sikh motive....the plannig and conduct of the operation was a different matter.


I need the most healing? Mate, try Punjab!....
Punjab is run by SAD....(the pun is intended).


The circumstances surrounding Operation Bluestar can be very well understood. If you genuinely wish to heal over 20 million of your countrymen's emotional wounds, than start writing to your MLAs, MPs and other constituency heads and start demanding justice for the '84 pogroms.
I would also like justice for the many non-sikh civilians killed by the separatists...who does one write to?


The civilians at the Golden Temple didn't need to be "saved", they could've easily walked out of the temple. They were not being held hostages. I think you mean to say that the Indian army managed not to kill 90% of civilians, since "saving" the civilians was never the intent of that operation. (And that 90% figure only looks good when you're talking about a group of 10 or even 100 people, not when you're talking about 10,000 people!)
The civilians were human shields...and still 90% escaped death and injury,...


You can't compare Moscow theatre siege and Beslan school incident with Bluestar. The former were pre-planned and rigged operations by terrorists to deliberately kill civilians who were being held hostage, while Bluestar resulted in a 1000 dead civilians who were free to walk out of the Temple but were disallowed to by the security forces. Apples and Oranges.
So what do you thing Shahbeg was doing in the temple complex?...he designed the automatic weapon emplacements and his course of defensive battle. Again you seem to see no fault with the terrorists....


Distrusting the Indian government does not mean trusting the separatists. Punish the '84 pogroms culprits and you'll regain the trust of Sikhs and folks such as Rajoana won't matter. You keep forgetting that it's the Sikhs who have gotten the shorter end of the stick, not the other way around.
I agree with you,...but my friend the SGPC needs to stop glorifying the terrorists. As long as their portraits hang in the Golden Temple, the nation will have very little inclination to punish the riot accused.


Now you have turned them into boogeymen. They are normal people who feel they have been wronged and distrust the Indian government with good reason.
So now you are calling these men who hunt to kill "normal people"!!!!

The moment Sikhs start to criticize the government or army, they are quickly vilified and clubbed together with extremists.
We the criticizism crosses the line and ends in an attack or threat - it becomes terrorism.


The events of '84 have been etched into the identity of the next gen Sikh youth mate. The Indian government should start taking steps to address the grievances and make up for the wrongs while they still have time, before Tytler and company pass away natural deaths, and the separatists get a permanent cause to rally around.
Is'nt a trail going on on Sajjan Kumar, the former Cong politician and 1984 riot accused?....You are aware of the system.
The nation has no sympathy for Tytler or Sajjan Kumar...

lemontree
10 Oct 12,, 05:45
.... The timing of the operation on a day when the place was packed with pilgrims! They had 6 months, and they chose the one day which would result in the highest number of people caught in the crossfire.....
The operation was hurriedly planned and executed due to the intelligence intercept received from the KGB. Bhindranwale was to declare independence and the Pak Army would cross the border to assist them.

It reeks of incompetency
Maybe, but it was far better than to allow a lunatic to wage war on the nation.

Tronic
10 Oct 12,, 07:04
We are a democracy and you are free to speak and be critical of the army or government, but when you defend and justify a terrorist like Rajhona...you put yourself on the other side of the fence.


Then focus on getting the culprits of 1984 riots, don't defend convicted terrorists. The moment you defend convicted terrorists you become no different than the Hurriayat that defends Afzal guru.

From where has Rajoana come into this discussion?

Regardless, there was no Rajoana in 1995. What stopped the culprits who carried out that pogrom from being trialed a decade before that? Most Sikhs had not even heard the name Rajoana till this year. Before him, countless Sikh assassins and terrorists have been trialed and hanged, without anyone making any noise. So what makes Rajoana so different? You tell me.



3.7 inch howitzers is an arty weapon and was used to hit the MG nests on the water towers.

Water towers or the Akal Takth? Akal Takth too had MG nests btw.


That is smalls arms and direct fire weapons. OOE has already explained to you.
I have given you the best proof that you can get, and you still dont believe...!!!!

OoE can come in again but from what I understood he was contesting the point about artillery fire. Direct Weapons fire is still tank rounds.



....and you put no blame on Bhindranwale and his gangs. They were given ample opportunity to let the pilgrims go, but they kept them as human shields.

Bhinderenwala was a very big ****, but what ample time are you talking about LT? The operation started without any prior warning and with the sealing of the temple; the stated objective of the army was to get in before sunrise. Therefore there's nothing that indicates that the army was prepared to evacuate 10,000 pilgrims within that time frame. I also don't see 200 militants holding 10,000 people hostage against their will.



Whatever be his loyalties, the article shows that there was no anti-Sikh motive....the plannig and conduct of the operation was a different matter.

Just go back through my posts. I have been lamenting the incompetency of the military commanders, not some anti-Sikh ploy.



Punjab is run by SAD....(the pun is intended).

The pogroms took place in Delhi, not Punjab.



I would also like justice for the many no-sikh civilians killed by the separatists...who does one write to?

15,000 - 25,000 dead, mostly Sikhs, not justice enough for you?



The civilians were human shields...and still 90% escaped death and injury,...

You don't use tanks to knock down human shields. 90% of 10,000 is nothing to be proud of.



So what do you thing Shahbeg was doing in the temple complex?...he designed the automatic weapon emplacements and his course of defensive battle.

Shahbeg designed a kill zone for the army, not the civilians. Beslan was a direct attack on the civilians, not government forces.


Again you seem to see no fault with the terrorists....

The terrorists are at fault by their presence, but the it's the army which chose the time and the day.


I agree with you,...but my friend the SGPC needs to stop glorifying the terrorists. As long as their portraits hang in the Golden Temple, the nation will have very little inclination to punish the riot accused.

They hadn't glorified the terrorists for the last 2 decades, so what was inclining the nation to turn their backs back than?



So no you are calling these men "normal people"!!!!

Don't step out of context. I'm talking about your normal everyday youth, not gun totting terrorists. You are clubbing everyone together. That's a mistake.


We the criticizism crosses the line and ends in an attack or threat - it becomes terrorism.

So you're saying that I'm culpable for terrorism by criticizing the Indian government?


Is'nt a trail going on on Sajjan Kumar, the former Cong politician and 1984 riot accused?....You are aware of the system.
The nation has no sympathy for Tytler or Sajjan Kumar...

LT, the real news would be if they actually are convicted, otherwise, there have been several mock trials over the past two and a half decades, which usually either end up with "lost" evidence from CBI offices, witnesses changing their testimony, and most amusing as it happened in Tytler's trial, the prosecution labeling a key witness as "missing" and "unavailable" only to have that person go on tv smashing the prosecution for failing to contact him. I'm aware of the system. It's pathetic to say the least.

Tronic
10 Oct 12,, 07:10
I don't know.

I don't have a dog in this fight ... and I don't have a a dog in Tienanmen Square nor Libya nor Syria nor Chechnya ... though I do have a dog in the Kosovo fight. The KLA is a drug smuggling, gun running, child prostitution ring.

The Khalistanis mainly went under the umbrella of the ISI, but now are starting to play a part in the drug trade as well, something the Indian government does not want to admit to and continues to use Sikh diaspora as the scapegoats.


What I really want to do here is to present the evidence to your side - to provide a balance view. That the army fucked up ... but thus far, you have not presented anything that the army has not already admitted that they fucked up.

There's nothing more to present OoE. It's good enough to admit that Op Bluestar was a major fcuk up which sparked the Khalistan insurgency, and that the anti-Sikh pogroms added fuel to the fire.

My bone of contention with LT has been the total deflection of responsibility away from the government and onto the militants.

Tronic
10 Oct 12,, 07:17
The operation was hurriedly planned and executed due to the intelligence intercept received from the KGB. Bhindranwale was to declare independence and the Pak Army would cross the border to assist them.

You're saying the Pak army was sitting deployed to invade India at a moment's notice in '84?


Maybe, but it was far better than to allow a lunatic to wage war on the nation.

Funny you're still clinging onto that narrative despite the hindsight you have today. That lunatic couldn't even muster up a small fraction of the insurgency which rose up after Bluestar.

appu_sen
10 Oct 12,, 11:45
I couldn't believe 10000 people went into the temple knowing there were MG nests in the temple.
Agreed the Gov. fcuked up for not acting for 6 months. But what were the people and the priest doing for 6 months?
They should have asked the terrorists to vacate or should have abondened the temple long ago (any way it is no more a temple if there are MG nests and ammo dump inside it, its just a fortress).
How were the terrorists getting food and water for 6 months without local support?

I don't have any deep knowledge or background of the operation. So plese excuse me if any of my questions are stupid.

appu_sen
10 Oct 12,, 16:10
This is horrible and setting a very wrong precedent :mad:

SGPC honours kin of former Army chief Gen AS Vaidya's killers - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/SGPC-honours-kin-of-former-Army-chief-Gen-AS-Vaidyas-killers/articleshow/16754525.cms)

Tronic
10 Oct 12,, 19:27
I couldn't believe 10000 people went into the temple knowing there were MG nests in the temple.
Agreed the Gov. fcuked up for not acting for 6 months. But what were the people and the priest doing for 6 months?
They should have asked the terrorists to vacate or should have abondened the temple long ago (any way it is no more a temple if there are MG nests and ammo dump inside it, its just a fortress).
How were the terrorists getting food and water for 6 months without local support?

I don't have any deep knowledge or background of the operation. So plese excuse me if any of my questions are stupid.

It was the Akal Takth which was taken over by the militants, not the Golden Temple. And the GT is one of the holiest places for the Sikhs. How long can you expect the people to boycott it? The proper thing to do would have been for the government to publicly declare an attack on the militants as soon as they stepped inside the Golden Temple, or at the very least, honour the Punjab Police's requests to arrest them. You can't let a terrorist freely operate for 6 months and than lay the blame on the people. Infact, forget the Golden Temple, Bhinderenwale's men used to roam around all of Punjab fully armed for 2 full years. Are the people responsible for that or the government?

As for getting food and water, that's a normal function of any Gurudwara in the world, and an important part of the Sikh faith. No one is turned down, everyone gets fed. Infact, you can go to your nearest Gurudwara right now, and you'll be fully fed no matter your race, religion or creed. Golden Temple hosts the world's largest free kitchen.

appu_sen
10 Oct 12,, 21:52
It was the Akal Takth which was taken over by the militants, not the Golden Temple. And the GT is one of the holiest places for the Sikhs. How long can you expect the people to boycott it? The proper thing to do would have been for the government to publicly declare an attack on the militants as soon as they stepped inside the Golden Temple, or at the very least, honour the Punjab Police's requests to arrest them. You can't let a terrorist freely operate for 6 months and than lay the blame on the people. Infact, forget the Golden Temple, Bhinderenwale's men used to roam around all of Punjab fully armed for 2 full years. Are the people responsible for that or the government?

As for getting food and water, that's a normal function of any Gurudwara in the world, and an important part of the Sikh faith. No one is turned down, everyone gets fed. Infact, you can go to your nearest Gurudwara right now, and you'll be fully fed no matter your race, religion or creed. Golden Temple hosts the world's largest free kitchen.

I agree with your point and pointed out myself that the gov. fcuked up but from a common man's pov its crazy to go to a place where you know terrorists have put up MG nests. Even if it was any other day and even if it was SF operation, I would not like to be in such place.
And for food part, I know I won't return from a gurudwara empty stomach but if I am going to destroy the decorum of the place, I am not sure.

appu_sen
10 Oct 12,, 21:57
LT, this question is for you. Strictly from military pov, why this operation couldn't have been an SF operation assisted by snipers?

Tronic
11 Oct 12,, 01:35
but if I am going to destroy the decorum of the place, I am not sure.

The worship at the temple has never been interrupted for the past 400 years. The only exception has been the Afghan invasions, and the Afghans only stopped the worship briefly by first attempting to occupy the temple by force in 1740, which backfired badly for them, and eventually by destroying the temple in 1760. That act put an end to Durrani's rule over Punjab, and he even ended up loosing the eastern portion of his empire. Peshawar used to be Afghanistan's summer capitol before being permanently overrun by Sikh armies under Nalwa, aiming to occupy and close the Khyber Pass for good.


LT, this question is for you. Strictly from military pov, why this operation couldn't have been an SF operation assisted by snipers?

appu, I'll let LT answer the question fully but I just want to point out that it infact was an SF operation. The paratroopers lead the attack, but back than, the Indian army used SF soldiers as shock troops.

Blademaster
11 Oct 12,, 01:39
Actually, you are right. Chinese law was broken. 38GA MGen Xu Qinxian was relieved because he refused to deploy.

Gen Cao, 2 decades later, reaffirm the legality to refuse such an order.

You will have to walk me through this. If I read this right, an illegal order to deploy does not mean the order for lethal force is illegal. The Chinese do not follow common law and thus, I am at a loss to understand this all.

As you indicated the communism movement started with a student and the young rebellion and the CCP derived its mandate from it. To continue to justifying its mandate to rule while using the very same tactics that the previous regime used has deprived the CCP any legality or morality.

Look at Bashar. The movement started out as peacefully demanding reforms and expecting Bashar to listen. What did they get? Bashar declaring them to be disloyal to the state and rebellious and then using force to quell the movement. Now the movement turned violent because of Bashar using force. In Tianemen Square, the students were protesting peacefully. When news came that the army would be deployed and use violence, of course the students were gonna fight back. The students did not use violence first. The CCP did.

In Operation Bluestar, the terrorists who holed up in the Golden Temple used violence first and had a history of fomenting violence and was in direct contact with an enemy state of India. In short, the terrorists' actions precipitated the need for swift violent force employed by the government. The CCP used force not as a last resort and certainly not at first shot but they didn't exhaust every legal remedy they had because they knew that they were losing popular support. Afraid of losing popular support through these peaceful means, they employed violence as a tactic to quell down the uprising and seized on any flimsy evidence of force or violence by the students as justification even though those force or violence occurred after the army started cracking down. Same thing with Bashar.

lemontree
11 Oct 12,, 07:58
You're saying the Pak army was sitting deployed to invade India at a moment's notice in '84?
Pakistan was smarting after the creation of Bangladesh. They were the blue eyed boys of the US after the Soviets entered Afghanistan in 1979.
They had all the help in terms of moral, political, military and financial support of the US.

As per intelligence reports supplied by KGB, the Pakistani's were awaiting the declaration of Khalistan and they would move in to support the movement.
If you are not aware, please see how close the Pak Army cantonments are to the IB. Their strike formations can mobilize within a week.

Khalistan was going to be declared any moment. The Khalistani currency had already been distributed, and Pakistan was pumping in money, they wanted a strong part of India, which is Punjab, to secede and for India to disintegrate.


Funny you're still clinging onto that narrative despite the hindsight you have today. That lunatic couldn't even muster up a small fraction of the insurgency which rose up after Bluestar.
You could'nt be further from the truth. He had created a frenzy with his hate speeches.
Hindus being regularly offloaded from Buses & trains & mercilessly gunned down by the croonies of Bhindranwale. Districts of Hoshiarpur, Gurdaspur Amritsar, Taran Taran, Jalandhar & Bhatinda recorded maximum killing sprees in this era. 1984 started with an increased numbers of killing by the terrorists.

Cassestes with speeches of Bhindranwale using vulgar language for Hindus spreading in the Gurdwaras & homes of rural Sikhs, threatening the Hindus of dire consequences if they did not leave Punjab. Hindus and non-Sikh were moving out of Punjab and Sikhs from Haryana and Delhi were moving in. This was creating a very non-condusive situation.

lemontree
11 Oct 12,, 08:21
From where has Rajoana come into this discussion?
I gave him as an example.


Water towers or the Akal Takth? Akal Takth too had MG nests btw.
That is why they were hit it RCL and tank fire. The water tanks could not be hit due to the elevation required in the barrels with RCLs or tanks.


Bhinderenwala was a very big ****, but what ample time are you talking about LT? The operation started without any prior warning and with the sealing of the temple; the stated objective of the army was to get in before sunrise. Therefore there's nothing that indicates that the army was prepared to evacuate 10,000 pilgrims within that time frame. I also don't see 200 militants holding 10,000 people hostage against their will.
As per the book by Lt Gen Brar, ...5th June afternoon onwards, the army kept asking the militants to surrender, using the public address system. The militants were asked to send the pilgrims out of the temple premises to the safety, before they started fighting the army. But nothing happened till 7 PM.

The police, if they could send emissaries inside to help get the civilians out, but the police said that anyone sent inside would be killed by the militants. They believed that the militants were keeping the pilgrims inside to stop the army from entering the temple. Finally, around a hundred sick and old people were let out. These people informed the army that the others were not being allowed to come out.


The pogroms took place in Delhi, not Punjab.
You suggested that I heal the people in Punjab, hence I stated that Punjab was ruled by SAD.


15,000 - 25,000 dead, mostly Sikhs, not justice enough for you?
Where do you get you figures from? As per the South Asia terror portal total civilian fatalities in terrorist related violence from 1981 to 2007 = 11,783. This figure includes both Hindu and Sikh.

But you did not answer, who should I write to for the non-sikh who were killed by Bhindranwale?...


The terrorists are at fault by their presence, but the it's the army which chose the time and the day.
The day of choice was a coincidence, and forced by the intell pouring in and the analysis done.


They hadn't glorified the terrorists for the last 2 decades, so what was inclining the nation to turn their backs back than?
The terrorists were glorified from day 1, and you can hardly deniy that.


Don't step out of context. I'm talking about your normal everyday youth, not gun totting terrorists. You are clubbing everyone together. That's a mistake.
You dont seem to appriciate, that if you go hunting for retired personal who did their jobs in the govt, to punish them, it constitutes an act of terror and the perpetrator becomes a terrorist.

The retired hangman from Pune's Yerwada jail was being hunted by Khalistani terrorists for hanging the assasins of Gen AK Vaidya. But you call them normal everyday youth.

Do normal everyday youth carry knives in the UK?


So you're saying that I'm culpable for terrorism by criticizing the Indian government?
Not at all. But if you support terrorists you become their sympathiser.


LT, the real news would be if they actually are convicted, otherwise, there have been several mock trials over the past two and a half decades, which usually either end up with "lost" evidence from CBI offices, witnesses changing their testimony, and most amusing as it happened in Tytler's trial, the prosecution labeling a key witness as "missing" and "unavailable" only to have that person go on tv smashing the prosecution for failing to contact him. I'm aware of the system. It's pathetic to say the least.
Give it time. Please understand the power of the Gandhi family is immense in India.
The very fact that the CBI has been able to accuse Sajjan Kumar, means that they are not under pressure. But to obtain proof that will stand in a court of law is what matters.

lemontree
11 Oct 12,, 08:35
LT, this question is for you. Strictly from military pov, why this operation couldn't have been an SF operation assisted by snipers?

The operation had elements of SF units and infantry battalions. But the automatic weapon placements in bunkers created a murderous cross fire that had to be neutralised by heavier munitions.

By sinpers you would mean a siege type of operation. But the operation had to be completed in a short time, before dawn. Otherwise, exaggerated messages of army besieging the temple would have attracted mobs to the temple premises. The army could not have fired upon these civilians. More importantly, Pakistan would have come in the picture, declaring its support for Khalistan.

There was a very real fear of police deserters crossing over after the declaration of Khalistan by Bhindranwale.

appu_sen
11 Oct 12,, 09:11
Oh!! I didn't know the situation was so bad.
Anyway even without considering what LT posted in #86, I see certain loose ends in Tronic's posts:

1. When Army was hardpressed to bring in Tanks (remember, they were not originally part of plan but were required as the fighting went on), how was Punjab police expected to arrest the terrorists? Hell, how did Punjab police even think about it. :eek:

2. From your posts I understand that under no circumstances, the temple could be closed (those who did had to face dire consequences: 'Afgans'). So no matter what day the operation would have been choosen, there would have been lot of civilians inside (which is also beyond my understanding even though Tronic tried to convince me, but.....).

3. If the initial operation was SF, what else the army could have done to flush out/kill the terrorists. The tanks and arty were called upon later when SF/infantry couldn't supress the terrorists.

4. If the army sealed off the area, then it could have been portayed as it is trying to stop worship in the temple and the terrorists could have used it as propoganda.

If you were the commander and were asked to flush out/kill the terrorists, what would have you done. Remember the intel inputs,as LT pointed out, when planning your operation.

Officer of Engineers
11 Oct 12,, 14:00
As you indicated the communism movement started with a student and the young rebellion and the CCP derived its mandate from it. To continue to justifying its mandate to rule while using the very same tactics that the previous regime used has deprived the CCP any legality or morality.My question was more about how this type of law works. It's more in tune that a bounty hunter going outside the US to arrest someone can be extradited for kidnapping charges but the arrested party will not be set free.


Look at Bashar. The movement started out as peacefully demanding reforms and expecting Bashar to listen. What did they get? Bashar declaring them to be disloyal to the state and rebellious and then using force to quell the movement. Now the movement turned violent because of Bashar using force.After seeing what happened to Mubarak, I can understand why he chose to go down fighting.


In Tianemen Square, the students were protesting peacefully. When news came that the army would be deployed and use violence, of course the students were gonna fight back. The students did not use violence first. The CCP did.I do not buy this argument one bit. We were deployed against the Warriors during the Oka Crisis and the National Guard was called out for the LA Riots. Deploying military force for home use does not give legitimacy for the Students to start killing and to man barricades.


The CCP used force not as a last resort and certainly not at first shot but they didn't exhaust every legal remedy they had because they knew that they were losing popular support.Actually, the threat of Civil War was very real. You have one Army MGen refusing orders. The Beijing Garrison was ordered to stay in barracks because the Conservative Faction did not trust him. And Zhao Ziyang trying to use the students to overthrow Deng Xia Peng. It is more correct to say that Deng's patience ran out.

Tronic
11 Oct 12,, 21:14
Pakistan was smarting after the creation of Bangladesh. They were the blue eyed boys of the US after the Soviets entered Afghanistan in 1979.
They had all the help in terms of moral, political, military and financial support of the US.

As per intelligence reports supplied by KGB, the Pakistani's were awaiting the declaration of Khalistan and they would move in to support the movement.
If you are not aware, please see how close the Pak Army cantonments are to the IB. Their strike formations can mobilize within a week.

That bit is interesting. From what I know, you cannot just jump out of the barracks and into the battlefield. Mobilizing strike formations within a week is beyond impressive. I'm skeptical. What makes our army so slow? It would take no less than a month, and you would not be able to hide the buildup, unless they try to mask a mobilization as an exercise.


Khalistan was going to be declared any moment. The Khalistani currency had already been distributed, and Pakistan was pumping in money, they wanted a strong part of India, which is Punjab, to secede and for India to disintegrate.

I'm not questioning Pakistan's motives. I'm questioning their ability.


You could'nt be further from the truth. He had created a frenzy with his hate speeches.
Hindus being regularly offloaded from Buses & trains & mercilessly gunned down by the croonies of Bhindranwale. Districts of Hoshiarpur, Gurdaspur Amritsar, Taran Taran, Jalandhar & Bhatinda recorded maximum killing sprees in this era. 1984 started with an increased numbers of killing by the terrorists.

You have your time frame wrong LT. It was the KCF which was targeting Hindus, not Bhinderenwala. They are not the same thing, as Bhinderenwala and the Babbar Khalsa aligned KCF were bitter enemies. There was a bus killing of Hindus and a shooting spree in a train bogie on Punjab Police Personnel in October '83. Bhinderenwala denied this attack and blamed it on government agencies, but it is very likely that it was carried out by other militants. The majority of attacks against Hindus took place from '85 to '89, with 2 high profile ones after that. The KCF accepted responsibility initially but after the lashback they received from majority of Punjab's Sikhs, they denied responsibility and tried to wash their hands off from those killings.


Cassestes with speeches of Bhindranwale using vulgar language for Hindus spreading in the Gurdwaras & homes of rural Sikhs, threatening the Hindus of dire consequences if they did not leave Punjab. Hindus and non-Sikh were moving out of Punjab and Sikhs from Haryana and Delhi were moving in. This was creating a very non-condusive situation.

Yup, that's what I thought too. But all of these 'cassettes' are widely available on youtube, LT, and with subtitles to boot. Please link me which ones you're talking about. From the ones I have seen, he's actually trying to play to the Hindu gallery.

Tronic
11 Oct 12,, 21:15
Oh!! I didn't know the situation was so bad.
Anyway even without considering what LT posted in #86, I see certain loose ends in Tronic's posts:

1. When Army was hardpressed to bring in Tanks (remember, they were not originally part of plan but were required as the fighting went on), how was Punjab police expected to arrest the terrorists? Hell, how did Punjab police even think about it. :eek:

Those MG nests and fortifications did not pop up over night. They were allowed to be built up over a coarse of 6 months, while the Police stood by helpless, disallowed from arresting Bhinderenwala when it was as simple as walking in and taking him in handcuffs. Infact, an earlier arrest warrant by the Punjab Police had Bhinderenwala walk himself to the Police station to surrender. That's how confident he was that his ass was covered by the central government. And surely enough, it was.


2. From your posts I understand that under no circumstances, the temple could be closed (those who did had to face dire consequences: 'Afgans'). So no matter what day the operation would have been choosen, there would have been lot of civilians inside (which is also beyond my understanding even though Tronic tried to convince me, but.....).

You're telling me that there would be the same amount of civilians inside on any other say as on one of the holiest days in Sikhism? You don't understand the significance of the day. It was Guru Arjan's martyrdom day where Sikhs from around the world come to pay their respects.


3. If the initial operation was SF, what else the army could have done to flush out/kill the terrorists. The tanks and arty were called upon later when SF/infantry couldn't supress the terrorists.

Not conduct the operation on that day.


4. If the army sealed off the area, then it could have been portayed as it is trying to stop worship in the temple and the terrorists could have used it as propoganda.

Couldn't have given any stronger propaganda than sealing it on one of the holiest days and killing a 1000 civilians.


If you were the commander and were asked to flush out/kill the terrorists, what would have you done. Remember the intel inputs,as LT pointed out, when planning your operation.

Well for one, I wouldn't buy it that the Pakistanis can just roll into Punjab within a fortnight. An invasion requires a mobilization, which at best takes more than a month. An intelligence intercept is one thing, an actual mobilization on the ground a whole another. We did not just wake up and roll into East Pakistan one fine day. It took months of planning, training and mobilization. And since my shit ass MI wasted 6 months sitting on their asses without gathering proper intelligence on the place; I would start off with that. So when I send my soldiers in, I know what I'm dealing with rather than work on assumptions. And ultimately, not attack on one of the holiest days when storming the place. And that's the basics. I'm not a military man.

Tronic
11 Oct 12,, 22:31
As per the book by Lt Gen Brar, ...5th June afternoon onwards, the army kept asking the militants to surrender, using the public address system. The militants were asked to send the pilgrims out of the temple premises to the safety, before they started fighting the army. But nothing happened till 7 PM.

The police, if they could send emissaries inside to help get the civilians out, but the police said that anyone sent inside would be killed by the militants. They believed that the militants were keeping the pilgrims inside to stop the army from entering the temple. Finally, around a hundred sick and old people were let out. These people informed the army that the others were not being allowed to come out.

Accounts differ with what the civilians inside are saying LT, while all the independent journalists who managed to lay low and avoid being tossed out were arrested and jailed for sedition for reporting accounts not in line with the army's version. Brahma Chellaney, Harji Malik, Krishna Raj, Ghanshyam Singh, and even a Canadian reporter, Jonathan Mann, were all tossed in jail.



You suggested that I heal the people in Punjab, hence I stated that Punjab was ruled by SAD.

I did not suggest anything LT; you wished to take part in the healing process on your own behalf. And I'm not able to follow. Are you putting the condition that Punjab has to first vote in the Congress Party for justice to be delivered? :biggrin:



Where do you get you figures from? As per the South Asia terror portal total civilian fatalities in terrorist related violence from 1981 to 2007 = 11,783. This figure includes both Hindu and Sikh.

As per Human Rights Asia, the toll is closer to 25,000, which includes the "missing" individuals, who were rounded up by the Police never to be seen again.

And yes, the casualty figure includes Hindus too but I'm speaking proportions. There was never a mass killing spree against Hindus if that's what you're trying to paint here. Hindus were targeted, but by select terror outfits, and in several isolated terrorist incidents. There was never an organized massacre of Hindus in Punjab, as it happened in Delhi and Haryana against Sikhs.

The Khalistani insurgency and terrorism bore out of political issues, not communal.

Here is Indira Gandhi's assassin's words before his execution;

"I have no hatred for any Hindu, Muslim, Christian, neither hatred for any religion. After my Shaheedi, let no Sikh throw any rock at any Hindu. I am not in favor of any retaliation or bloodshed over my Shaheedi. If we do create bloodshed, then there is no difference between us and Rajiv Gandhi. I am proud of the task that I did! I do ardas (prayers) in front of Waheguru (god)! If I am blessed with a human life, then give me a death of the brave when I am hanged. Forget one life, if I could I would give up a thousand lives to kill dushts (devils) like Indira Gandhi, and laugh as I become Shaheed (martyr) by hanging.

-Satwant Singh in court"

ExecutedToday.com » 1989: Kehar Singh and Satwant Singh, assassins of Indira Gandhi (http://www.executedtoday.com/2012/01/06/1989-kehar-singh-and-satwat-singh-assassins-of-indira-gandhi/)

Doesn't sound like a man with a hatred of Hindus, but a man with an axe to grind against the Indian government.



But you did not answer, who should I write to for the non-sikh who were killed by Bhindranwale?...

If you wish to equate terrorists with the Indian government, than write to Pakistan, the sponsors of KCF.


The day of choice was a coincidence, and forced by the intell pouring in and the analysis done.

So own up the mistake without both fingers pointing to Bhinderenwala all the time. We know he was a ****, so what? It doesn't excuse the fcuk ups. His trail leads to the Indian government as well. And when that is pointed out, than you fall back on blaming the entire Sikh community. Owning up to fcuk ups is a good start for reconciliation.


The terrorists were glorified from day 1, and you can hardly deniy that.

Yes, I can deny that. All these "honouring" the terrorists and all such BS has only started happening post-2000. Why? Because I reckon a lot of Sikhs in Punjab have started to loose hope that the culprits of the '84 pogroms will ever be punished. It's a way to give the central government the middle finger.



You dont seem to appriciate, that if you go hunting for retired personal who did their jobs in the govt, to punish them, it constitutes an act of terror and the perpetrator becomes a terrorist.

Than trial them for terrorism. I'm not speaking on their behalf.


The retired hangman from Pune's Yerwada jail was being hunted by Khalistani terrorists for hanging the assasins of Gen AK Vaidya. But you call them normal everyday youth.

Point out where I have called terrorists everyday youth. It's a preconceived notion of yours that you see all the Sikh youth who don't agree with your perspective as terrorists, not the other way around.


Do normal everyday youth carry knives in the UK?

Was I referring to Brar's assailants?


Not at all. But if you support terrorists you become their sympathiser.

Calling a spade a spade is not supporting terrorists.


Give it time. Please understand the power of the Gandhi family is immense in India.
The very fact that the CBI has been able to accuse Sajjan Kumar, means that they are not under pressure. But to obtain proof that will stand in a court of law is what matters.

Than it's only proper that these sham Congress controlled institutions are exposed for what they really are. 27 years and counting LT. The evidence has only been eroding with time, not building up. It's a sham. Notice the clear contradictions on how loudly they moved against the Gujarat riot perpetrators simply because those chaps were linked to an opposition party, while when it comes to their own actions, they chant the mantra, "forget and move on".

lemontree
12 Oct 12,, 06:35
That bit is interesting. From what I know, you cannot just jump out of the barracks and into the battlefield. Mobilizing strike formations within a week is beyond impressive. I'm skeptical. What makes our army so slow? It would take no less than a month, and you would not be able to hide the buildup, unless they try to mask a mobilization as an exercise.

Well, Pakistan has two strike corps - I Corps (HQ in Mangala) & II Corps (HQ in Multan). II Corps is also known as it army reserve for south.

I Corps:
6 Armd Div - Kharian 10km from RS Pura near Jammu OR 150 km from any choice of axis on the IB with Indian Punjab.
17 Inf Div - Kharian 10km from RS Pura near Jammu OR 150 km from any choice of axis on the IB with Indian Punjab.
37 Inf Div - Gujranwala 70 km from any choice of axis on the IB with Indian Punjab.

II Corps
1st Armd Div - Multan, 80 km from IB with Indian Punjab
14 Inf Div - based in Okara, 50 km from IB with Indian Punjab
40 Inf Div - based in Okara, 50 km from IB with Indian Punjab

Please note the distance and time taken form movement. No army worth its salt will take more that a week to mobilise.


I'm not questioning Pakistan's motives. I'm questioning their ability.
They do not have the ability, BUT did that stop 1965 or 1999 Kargil. They have enough of hallucinating nutcase generals.


You have your time frame wrong LT. It was the KCF which was targeting Hindus, not Bhinderenwala. They are not the same thing, as Bhinderenwala and the Babbar Khalsa aligned KCF were bitter enemies. There was a bus killing of Hindus and a shooting spree in a train bogie on Punjab Police Personnel in October '83. Bhinderenwala denied this attack and blamed it on government agencies, but it is very likely that it was carried out by other militants. The majority of attacks against Hindus took place from '85 to '89, with 2 high profile ones after that. The KCF accepted responsibility initially but after the lashback they received from majority of Punjab's Sikhs, they denied responsibility and tried to wash their hands off from those killings.
I am talking of the spurt in killings from January 1984 to May 1984. Prior to that there were an average of 5-6 civilians killed. But from Jan 1984 the average rose to 30-40 killings per month.

I am not even talking of KCF or BKI,..KCF they came into the picture after 1986.
Babbar Khalsa - existed before 1978, but they were mainly anti-Nirankari. This group was consolidated and led by Canadian Sikhs, who came into lime light after the 1985 Air India Kanishaka bombing.


Yup, that's what I thought too. But all of these 'cassettes' are widely available on youtube, LT, and with subtitles to boot. Please link me which ones you're talking about. From the ones I have seen, he's actually trying to play to the Hindu gallery.
You dont really expect to find '84 era audio speeches on youtube...these were stored in audio cassettes. I do not know if any of the old cassettes are on youtube.

ambidex
12 Oct 12,, 06:53
People can go down low by telling that more Sikh were killed in Punjab during Sikh militancy so hindus have no business to play victim like Sikhs have.

Here my answer and they should suck it up...

Hindus were the target of Sikh militancy in Punjab and Sikh killed were the collateral damage. The score should have been leveled for few days of riots vs many years of militancy.

The Sikhs in armed forces who lead the fight and got killed to increase proportion of Sikh casualties were doing it for their own job and monetary benefits like hindus joined Sikhs armies in past were doing not because of their respect for Sikhism but money and land.

Bhindrawala was a mother fucker bigot who spwed hate against hindus quoting Sikh holy book. I heard him on a Youtube video that hindus are one who always rule land by offering/trading their daughters. "eh diyan deeke raj karan wale ne''. He even said that he will kill thousands of hindus in one day.

1. If Khalistan would have been made after partition and if same situation might have had happened where Sikhs might have had used force against occupation like Bhindranwale did no Sikh might have cried foul, like muslims doesn't rant about siege of mecca mosque. But since the army was of hindu India gut of few will burn for many centuries to come. Sikh throughout their history did armed struggles to get their Gurudwaras freed from ''mahants'' and other priests working like mafias in their temples. Just recently they fought each other with swords and daggers injuring each other inside their places of worship.

2. Akali Dal party is bad because they are now sworn in minister to constitution of India and they have surrendered the cause of Khalistan.

3. All the fault is of GoI and a political party who was supposed to do the politics to negotiate terms with a state and its people like they do with any other state but failed to foresee bigotry of Sikhs that they will side with ''so called Sikh Sants (saints)'' who will end up hiding in their temples with arms ammunition and with radio links with Pakistan.

4. It is all the fault of army who sieged the area on some special day when for that same day Sikhs were doing propaganda of declaring independence with 1 Sikh taking care of 10 hindus onwards.

5. It is all the fault of GoI that Sikhs see every (socio-political) unfair treatment as attack on Sikhs not state of Punjab where population of hindus was around 40-30 % all the time but they all were traitors of Sikhs because they were not impulsive like them.

6. Since there is no sense of closure, Sikhs will keep using violence against Indian army soldiers who were there to maintain the sanity of that place and hell they were successful to do so, that the temple was up and running for the cause it was built for, within days for everyone including pilgrimages from any caste, creed and religion including hindus till today, which was never the case when Bhindranwale was out there abusing hindus.

7. In near future it will be fault of GoI and its forces of India when they enter those premises again to bring down portraits of traitors who conspired against Union of India, killed Indian Army Generals or rectify the records where Sikhs are glorifying human bombs with consensus and consent of all present day Sikhs. Same consensus and consent they had/gave to the tactics and agenda of Bhindranwale.

lemontree
12 Oct 12,, 07:50
Accounts differ with what the civilians inside are saying LT, while all the independent journalists who managed to lay low and avoid being tossed out were arrested and jailed for sedition for reporting accounts not in line with the army's version. Brahma Chellaney, Harji Malik, Krishna Raj, Ghanshyam Singh, and even a Canadian reporter, Jonathan Mann, were all tossed in jail.
Agreed that accounts may differ, but at no point were the people allowed to leave the temple. Maj Gen Shahbeg assumed that the army would not entre with so many pilgrims inside. They were used as human shields.


I did not suggest anything LT; you wished to take part in the healing process on your own behalf. And I'm not able to follow. Are you putting the condition that Punjab has to first vote in the Congress Party for justice to be delivered? :biggrin:
Well, they did vote the Congress in power too, you had Capt. Amrinder Singh as CM before SAD took over...


As per Human Rights Asia, the toll is closer to 25,000, which includes the "missing" individuals, who were rounded up by the Police never to be seen again.
I take Human Rights data with a bag full of salt.


And yes, the casualty figure includes Hindus too but I'm speaking proportions. There was never a mass killing spree against Hindus if that's what you're trying to paint here. Hindus were targeted, but by select terror outfits, and in several isolated terrorist incidents.
61% of terror violence in Punjab were Sikhs and the rest non-sikh.

Incidents of mass killings against hindus:
12 Sept 1983: 8 hindu bus passengers killed.
October 1983: 6 Hindu bus passengers killed by militants.
8 October 1983: Hindus killed through out Punjab in retaliation for Police detaining a bus with his men in it.
14 October 1983: bomb blast in Chandigarh on Diwali.
9 Feb 1984: Bomb a hindu wedding procession (or baraat as we call it).
23 Feb 1984: 11 Hindus pulled off from trains and buses and killed, 27 wounded.


There was never an organized massacre of Hindus in Punjab, as it happened in Delhi and Haryana against Sikhs.
The above mentioned data and actions speak otherwise. The riots after Indira's assasination was a result of the the collective frustration and polarization due to the systematic targeting of hindus.

The Khalistani insurgency and terrorism bore out of political issues, not communal.
It was given a communal colour by Bhindranwale and the targetting of hindus and the hate speeches made it so.

Here is Indira Gandhi's assassin's words before his execution;
.....
Doesn't sound like a man with a hatred of Hindus, but a man with an axe to grind against the Indian government.
These were poodles manupilated to carry out a task. The gunmen how pulled the trigger, were already dead after a fire-fight in the guard house with the other ITBP guards.
You are portraying the "Piety" of an assasination conspirator at the time of execution - this is meaningless. The actions of their comrades prior and post Op Blue Star gave it a communal colour.


If you wish to equate terrorists with the Indian government, than write to Pakistan, the sponsors of KCF.
No, I am going to question all Silkhs for glorifying terrorists with posters hanging in their Gurudwaras. Pakistanis just used the Sikhs.


So own up the mistake without both fingers pointing to Bhinderenwala all the time. We know he was a ****, so what? It doesn't excuse the fcuk ups. His trail leads to the Indian government as well. And when that is pointed out, than you fall back on blaming the entire Sikh community. Owning up to fcuk ups is a good start for reconciliation.
No one has ever denied the mistakes of the Congress in using Bhindranwale for their political aspirations in Punjab,...but has ever made a difference.


Yes, I can deny that. All these "honouring" the terrorists and all such BS has only started happening post-2000. Why? Because I reckon a lot of Sikhs in Punjab have started to loose hope that the culprits of the '84 pogroms will ever be punished. It's a way to give the central government the middle finger.
That is BS. I was in the Golden Temple in September 1993 and saw a small memorial where Bhindranwale had fallen, and his portraits and those of the assasins of Indira Gandhi and Gen Vaidya in the martyers hall in the museum section.

Honouring terrorists polarises the nation against them.


Point out where I have called terrorists everyday youth. It's a preconceived notion of yours that you see all the Sikh youth who don't agree with your perspective as terrorists, not the other way around.
I was referring to the men who have been hunting of retired police personal instrumental in killing terrorist leaders or executing convicted terrorists.

Was I referring to Brar's assailants?
How do you know they were ordinary youth or feed by BKI ideology?


Calling a spade a spade is not supporting terrorists.
It makes one a terrorist sympathiser.


Than it's only proper that these sham Congress controlled institutions are exposed for what they really are. 27 years and counting LT. The evidence has only been eroding with time, not building up. It's a sham. Notice the clear contradictions on how loudly they moved against the Gujarat riot perpetrators simply because those chaps were linked to an opposition party, while when it comes to their own actions, they chant the mantra, "forget and move on".
The pity is that there is no voice taking it forward.

appu_sen
12 Oct 12,, 09:34
Tronic,
I am speaking as an ordinary Indian. The riots were a big black patch in Indian history. We all (in my circle of family and friends) regret it. And waiting for justice is in wane. I have seen no member of political party been accused of anything and jailed. Even the other rich and powerful (only a handful) are going behin bars after the previous trila let them off and media made a loud hue and cry.

So there are 2 options. - "learn and move on" - it is better for the country!! Never fall in the trap again as a community. (The political parties will keep making new traps for their own gains).

Revolt against the gov (as you stated give the gov middle finger). ( by the way as a democracy we always get a chance atleast after every 5 years!!!) Revolting will again be in form of terrorism (sooner or later) and will again attract Pak in to break away Punjab.

If people had issues with the way the operation was cunducted, they could have sued the army of filed a PIL in court. If everybody starts taking up guns for the fcuk ups of the gov. or its agencies, there will be no India.

So whatever may be the cause, there is no justification of voilence. Think about it. No body tradegy is less than anybody elses.

Double Edge
12 Oct 12,, 20:49
Thanks for tracking it down. Now realize that both those stories have been reprinted as flashing headlines on October 7th! What's the motive behind reprinting and re-flashing a month old news as the current headline? And by the way, Deccan Herald is not the only one which did it, but pretty much all major Indian newspapers and even television media reflashed that headline!

It is ironical that they are constantly pointing fingers at the Sikh diaspora...
Less than a month after those statements were made Brar got attacked. Coincidence or what.

How did that happen and who is behind the attack. How did they even find Brar in a city as large & spread out as London.


Instead of pointing fingers at foreign boogeymen, the government should fix up its own shortcomings.
You don't think its a valid suspicion at this point. I think its natural for people to start seeing some connection however tenuous it may later prove to be.

Earlier you said the focus of sikh groups abroad is different nowadays but we still have an unexplained attack to account for.


India is not a very transparent country, so as long as what is said is in the public domain and in front of media, it is a message to the people. An IB director does not give a public brief to DGP and IGPs.
See above


DE, I'll definitely give it a read, but you have to take it with a pinch of salt. This is the same army which imposed a ban on the media and shipped the journalists out of Punjab on buses.
Yes but to be fair you have to allow the General his say and then reconcile it with what you already know. Imagine there would be a lot of operational decisions explained therein that you could clarify with people here.

Or can remain cynical and think of such accounts as self-exonerating and CYA but thats just avoiding the other side of the story ;)

Double Edge
12 Oct 12,, 21:07
Well for one, I wouldn't buy it that the Pakistanis can just roll into Punjab within a fortnight. An invasion requires a mobilization, which at best takes more than a month. An intelligence intercept is one thing, an actual mobilization on the ground a whole another. We did not just wake up and roll into East Pakistan one fine day. It took months of planning, training and mobilization. And since my shit ass MI wasted 6 months sitting on their asses without gathering proper intelligence on the place; I would start off with that. So when I send my soldiers in, I know what I'm dealing with rather than work on assumptions. And ultimately, not attack on one of the holiest days when storming the place. And that's the basics. I'm not a military man.
Yeah, i don't quite agree with LT's phrasing & sequencing there. Instead prefer to think of the Paks as a future threat over the horizon.

However LT's next bit is more important....


There was a very real fear of police deserters crossing over after the declaration of Khalistan by Bhindranwale.
what matters in the immediate term is the potential threat of an insurgency turning into a civil war. Does not have to be a civil war, any further deterioration with all the unpredictability it brings of the already volatile situation would be unacceptable.

Now that is something that would concentrate minds much more than anything the Paks may or might not do in the future. If a civil war erupts it presents numerous opportunities as well as time for the Paks to exploit. Indian forces now have two problems to deal with.


Actually, the threat of Civil War was very real. You have one Army MGen refusing orders. The Beijing Garrison was ordered to stay in barracks because the Conservative Faction did not trust him. And Zhao Ziyang trying to use the students to overthrow Deng Xia Peng. It is more correct to say that Deng's patience ran out.
Same thing again albeit under different circumstances.

What both adminstrations were antsy about was the threat of a civil war. So it follows then that disproportionate force is going to be used and that is how it turned out in both cases.


Rant? Operation Blue Star was the Indian equivalent of Tiananmen. And that's only if we downplay its significance.
Only in terms of the urgency in which both operations were executed. The significance or similarity is both prevented a potential civil war from breaking out. India's Tianmen or China's Golden temple (sounds catchy?) are not equivalent beyond.

From this pov its a superficial comparison as the causes & motivations in both are different.

Firestorm
12 Oct 12,, 22:06
An actual invasion by the PA wasn't the only threat. It was certain that the Pakistanis would immediately recognize Khalistan if the declaration was made. And there was no telling who might join them in doing so considering that the cold war was still going on at the time, with India being on the wrong (soviet) side of the fence.

Tronic
13 Oct 12,, 07:21
Gentlemen, my undergrad exams have arrived, and I cannot afford to spend the time carrying this discussion forward at the moment as it is very time consuming.

LT, I still contest most of what you have said, but I am pressed for time at the moment so maybe a month from now.

DE, I don't disagree with a lot you have said, except your connecting that news with the stabbing incident. 2 men have been arrested, just follow the case. Every criminal is not necessarily connected to an organized gang.

appu, I agree with you but we have had national parties revolting and rioting over a 500 year old Babri-Ram issue, so asking justice for an event which took place not 3 decades ago doesn't seem unreasonable.

That's my last word on the topic for a while. Peace!

lemontree
15 Oct 12,, 04:50
All the best for your exams..there will be ample time for us to head bang again....:tankie:

Deltacamelately
15 Oct 12,, 08:14
Best of luck for your exams Tronic!

Come out in flying colours.

appu_sen
15 Oct 12,, 09:04
All the best for your exams:)

Double Edge
15 Oct 12,, 12:21
An actual invasion by the PA wasn't the only threat. It was certain that the Pakistanis would immediately recognize Khalistan if the declaration was made. And there was no telling who might join them in doing so considering that the cold war was still going on at the time, with India being on the wrong (soviet) side of the fence.
What are the minimum requirements to be met before such a declaration can be made ?

Should certain amount of territory be won & held from Indian forces. At the time all they had was just the golden temple. Anything more ?

Otherwise such a declaration serves as a rallying cry, the purpose is to instigate more domestic unrest.

Any active international interest soon after the declaration seems premature at least not until the Khalistanis actually have a fighting chance of winning the state. Or if Indian attrocities arouse a intl outrage to match what the Paks did in East Pakistan in '71. And this would require credible reporting to be accepted. I find it difficult to accept that foreign powers would just step up to support secession just for the sake of it.

Thing is cold war days tended to mute this kind of opposition in comparison to today. The options available then were more limited.

I'm thinking of Kosovo, war in '99, independence declaration with US interest only ten years later. If the Soviets were still around in the 90s & beyond i doubt Yugoslavia would have broken up.

Double Edge
15 Oct 12,, 12:29
Pending your reply i thought i would put this in.


The question is
- why did they wait 6 months to do so? Why did they pick the most holiest of days, when the shrine was packed with thousands of pilgrims from around the world?

- Why did they allow those pilgrims to even enter the temple when they knew they would be shelling that place with artillery the same night?

Secondly, I would love to get answers for those questions. The militants had to be killed, but
- why carry out an operation when civilian casualties would be the highest they could be? They had 6 months! Why not carry it out a week earlier? Or a week later?

- Why on a holy day when Golden Temple routinely hosts the highest number of pilgrims?
The militants had already been choked off from water and food, so why not allow the pilgrims to exit? That's probably one of a kind operation where it was actually the army trapping the civilians in the middle of a planned warzone, rather than militants taking hostages. What's your take on these questions?
Unless you or somebody else wants to contest what LT said about state fears over the militants intent...

In a nutshell, all of your above questions can be answered by saying that not acting when they did would be more expensive or detrimental to the state's position.

Doktor
15 Oct 12,, 13:06
I'm thinking of Kosovo, war in '99, independence declaration with US interest only ten years later. If the Soviets were still around in the 90s & beyond i doubt Yugoslavia would have broken up.

Don't bang your head to much.

If USSR was still around Yugoslavia would have existed. The removal from the USSR on the world stage, removed the cause for Yugoslavia to exists (buffer zone).

Too bad the politicians didn't saw that on time and changed the role of the country if it was somehow possible.

subba
18 Oct 12,, 05:52
Some basic facts:

1. Bhrindranwale got arms into the Golden Temple. Not just a Holy place for Sikhs alone, but for those Dharmics who consider Jain or a Buddhist Temple, a Shiv Mandir, A Krishna temple just as holy.

2. Bhrindranwale and the Khalistani's who started managing GT affairs, prepared for War.

3. They prepared for a secession and were ably guided, armed, motivated by the Pakistani ISI.

4. A plebiscite would NEVER have yielded an Independent Khalistan then or now.

5. Since 4 was not an option, armed force and terror to paralyze the State were used up to the Operations at the GT.


In short the sanctity of the Golden Temple is not destroyed by Artillery or Mortar. The damage is done by those Adharmics that bring in weapons, arms into a place that is supposed to be exclusive to Dharmic worship. The sanctity is being destroyed by those that place pictures of killers and assassins in the hallowed premises. Those Sikhs that do so must decide whether they are on the side of Dharma or against. If against, then sorry to say, Dharma will be ruthless yet again for sure and root the Adharmic element.

Just like Dharmics visit Shiv, Vishnu, Jain and Buddhist Temples, so do they also the Golden Temple. Those that manage the Golden Temple must also fear enraging the Dharmics when they bring in arms and ammo and hang pictures of terrorists.

I would not mind Artillery being used to flush out armed Panda's or their armed cohorts that manage the Jagannath Temple or Priests that do so in Tirupati for political purposes. I would actively support the gorging out of such elements from the hallowed precincts of either the Jagannath, Amarnath, Tirupati, Golden Temple or wherever they have desecrate a Dharmic place of worship.

Just like a Shiva temple is the propriety of the Dharmic faith, so is a Vishnu Temple, so is a Jain Temple, So is a Buddhist Temple, so is the Golden Temple. Let not in the first place the guardians of each temple disturb the sanctity of Dharma. And Sikhism is after all a Dharmic faith. So Dharma will always prevail over a few emotional and violent Yahoo's who claim exclusivity to the Messages of the Guru's.

PS: Brig Ray Sir, nice to see you back. Hope all is well with you.

Tronic
18 Oct 12,, 08:00
Won't comment on the other points, but couldn't miss this. :biggrin:


Not just a Holy place for Sikhs alone, but for those Dharmics who consider Jain or a Buddhist Temple, a Shiv Mandir, A Krishna temple just as holy....

....The damage is done by those Adharmics that bring in weapons, arms into a place that is supposed to be exclusive to Dharmic worship.

....Those Sikhs that do so must decide whether they are on the side of Dharma or against. If against, then sorry to say, Dharma will be ruthless yet again for sure and root the Adharmic element....

...Just like Dharmics visit Shiv, Vishnu, Jain and Buddhist Temples, so do they also the Golden Temple. Those that manage the Golden Temple must also fear enraging the Dharmics when they bring in arms and ammo and hang pictures of terrorists....

...I would actively support the gorging out of such elements from the hallowed precincts of either the Jagannath, Amarnath, Tirupati, Golden Temple or wherever they have desecrate a Dharmic place of worship....

,...Just like a Shiva temple is the propriety of the Dharmic faith, so is a Vishnu Temple, so is a Jain Temple, So is a Buddhist Temple, so is the Golden Temple. Let not in the first place the guardians of each temple disturb the sanctity of Dharma. And Sikhism is after all a Dharmic faith. So Dharma will always prevail over a few emotional and violent Yahoo's who claim exclusivity to the Messages of the Guru's.


Golden Temple "exclusive" place for "Dharmic worship"(whatever that is)? "Propriety of the Dharmic faith"? Is that why it's foundation was actually laid down by a Sufi Muslim? ;) Is that why the Ahmadis lay claim to Baba Nanak to be a Muslim prophet, while the Sufi Muslims claim him to be a Faqir (Holyman)?

The message of Baba Nanak is not exclusive to the Sikhs but it is for the oneness of all of humankind. That's actually a basic principle of Sikhism. It makes your assertions look weak.

'Sarbat Da Bhalla'.

That's what is said at the end of our prayers.

It means, "May all of humanity be blessed". Not, "May Sikhs be blessed", or "Dharmics be blessed". It's for the good of the world.

Anyone, no matter what your caste, creed or religion, can come to any Sikh temple to repent for their sins and partake in community service, called 'sewa'.

A small example: Pakistan deputy attorney-general performs sewa at Golden Temple | Day & Night News (http://www.dayandnightnews.com/2012/03/pak-deputy-attorney-general-performs-sewa-at-golden-temple/) Pakistan deputy attorney-general to clean shoes at Amritsar Golden Temple - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9167237/Pakistan-deputy-attorney-general-to-clean-shoes-at-Amritsar-Golden-Temple.html)

I know that your Hindu far-right literature will disagree, but it's ok, so do the Wahabbists across the border.

subba
18 Oct 12,, 08:38
Tronic, if you don't know what Dharma/ Dharmic means i am sorry, you cannot claim to be Sikh. Your own Guru's will disagree with you.

I never said GT is exclusive to Dharmic Worship, is aid the opposite. Neither i said is a Vishnu, Shiv temple. The exclusivity claimed is your claim alone, not mine. I have not quoted any extreme Hindu right literature or text, (that is a personal attack, absolutely unwarranted).

I wrote just what is reality. If you think GT is exclusive only to Sikhs say so.

I don't care if the GT foundation stone was by a Sufi, as much as i care that the Ramayana was written by Valmiki a reformed Robber.


'Sarbat Da Bhalla'.

That's what is said at the end of our prayers.

It means, "May all of humanity be blessed".

But that is something Dharmic prayers like this have said long before Sikhism emerged, you shouldn't even be quoting that. Unless you think that blessing Humanity is an Exclusive Sikh affair and the below is just Right wing Hindu Nonsense.


Oh God, lead us from the
unreal to the Real.

Oh God, lead us from darkness to light.

Oh God, lead us from death to immortality.
Shanti, Shanti, Shanti unto all.

Oh Lord God almighty, may there be peace in
celestial regions.


May there be peace on Earth.
May the waters be appeasing.

May herbs be wholesome, and may trees
plants bring peace to all. May all beneficent
beings bring peace to us.

May all things be a source of peace to us.
And may thy peace itself, bestow peace on all
and may that peace come to me also.

And yes, the crux remains if hanging pics of terrorists and killers in the the temple does not stop, it will lead to a redux Bluestar sometime. This is a natural law. If some Sikhs choose to bring arms into the temple, don't expect no reaction. There is no point in thinking the operation was botched, mismanaged or whatever. Even Ram and Krishna were considered sacred by your Guru's. So give it a break. I am not attacking the Sikh right or left. I am attacking those that bring in arms/ ammo and prepare for War inside a Dharmic place of worship.

Tronic
18 Oct 12,, 18:43
Tronic, if you don't know what Dharma/ Dharmic means i am sorry, you cannot claim to be Sikh. Your own Guru's will disagree with you.

So says you.

One who knows nothing about the Sikh faith.

"Dharma" is not even mentioned in the 3 major pillars of Sikhism defining Sikhism.

"Dharma", in Sikhism, is merely a sanskrit word which translates to "duty". And the "duty" of Sikhs (or rather, of humans), is to seek and reunite with God. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not exclusive to Eastern religions, as the "Dharma" of Western religions is to seek heaven, the "dharma" of Eastern Orthodox Christianity is to seek a communion with God.


I never said GT is exclusive to Dharmic Worship, is aid the opposite.

You repeated some make-believe "Dharmic" exclusivity. Otherwise, I would never have responded.


Neither i said is a Vishnu, Shiv temple. The exclusivity claimed is your claim alone, not mine.

"...a place that is supposed to be exclusive to Dharmic worship."

"...is the propriety of the Dharmic faith.."

Your words. Not mine.


I have not quoted any extreme Hindu right literature or text, (that is a personal attack, absolutely unwarranted).

Hardly a personal attack. There is only one type of organization which actively promotes this "Dharmic" exclusivity, to bring all Eastern religions under one fold in an attempt to segregate people against the "evil" Abrahamic religions. It's the Hindu far right.


I wrote just what is reality. If you think GT is exclusive only to Sikhs say so.

You wrote delusional nonsense, and why attempt to put words in my mouth? Golden Temple would cease to be a Gurudwara if it became exclusive to only one section of people. GT is designed with 4 entrances, one on each side, representing openness to all of mankind.


I don't care if the GT foundation stone was by a Sufi, as much as i care that the Ramayana was written by Valmiki a reformed Robber.

But that is something Dharmic prayers like this have said long before Sikhism emerged, you shouldn't even be quoting that. Unless you think that blessing Humanity is an Exclusive Sikh affair and the below is just Right wing Hindu Nonsense.

Comparing a Muslim Sufi saint to a 'reformed Robber', while putting a spin on things to project some "Dharmic prayers" exclusivity. Why am I not surprised? :rolleyes:

Only reason I'm calling you out on this is because the only motive of chaps with your ideology is to drive wedges against Muslims and Christians.



Even Ram and Krishna were considered sacred by your Guru's. So give it a break.

In Sikhism, Ram, Krishna, Gosan, Allah, Khuda, Kareem, Raheem, etc, are all merely names used to refer to the same one entity, i.e. God. Sikhs believe that God is the same for all humans and they merely call him by different names. That was the whole point of using those names in the first place.

Baba Nanak made it quite clear in his message, "Some call the Lord 'Ram, Ram', and some 'Khuda'. Some serve Him as 'Gusain', others as 'Allah'. He is the Cause of causes, and Generous. He showers His Grace and Mercy upon us. Some pilgrims bathe at sacred shrines, others go on Hajj to Mecca. Some do devotional worship, whilst others bow their heads in prayer. Some read the Vedas, and some the Koran. Some wear blue robes, and some wear white. Some call themselves Muslim, and some call themselves Hindu. Some yearn for communion, and others long for heaven. Says Nanak, one who realizes the Hukam of God's Will, knows the secrets of his Lord Master."

Firestorm
18 Oct 12,, 20:39
In short the sanctity of the Golden Temple is not destroyed by Artillery or Mortar. The damage is done by those Adharmics that bring in weapons, arms into a place that is supposed to be exclusive to Dharmic worship. The sanctity is being destroyed by those that place pictures of killers and assassins in the hallowed premises. Those Sikhs that do so must decide whether they are on the side of Dharma or against. If against, then sorry to say, Dharma will be ruthless yet again for sure and root the Adharmic element.

Your delusions of Bluestar being part of some Dharma vs Adharma battle are amusing. BS happened because, Bhindranwale challenged the writ of the Indian govt. and was actively planning on seceding from the Indian union. Nothing else.

subba
18 Oct 12,, 22:26
Tronic:


Dharma About this sound listen (help·info) (Sanskrit: धर्म dhárma, Pali: धम्म dhamma; lit. that which upholds, supports or maintains the regulatory order of the universe[1]) means Law or Natural Law and is a concept of central importance in Indian philosophy and religion. As well as referring to Law in the universal or abstract sense dharma designates those behaviours considered necessary for the maintenance of the natural order of things.[2] Therefore dharma may encompass ideas such as duty,[3] vocation, religion and everything that is considered correct, proper or decent behaviour. The idea of dharma as duty or propriety derives from an idea found in India's ancient legal and religious texts that there is a divinely instituted natural order of things (rta) and justice, social harmony and human happiness require that human beings discern and live in a manner appropriate to the requirements of that order. Dharma states that there are guidelines or rules that must be obeyed varying from place to place . The source of any individual dharma lies in the nature of each individual and is part of their customs and practices. [4] According to the various Indian religions, such as Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, and Sikhism, beings that live in accordance with dharma proceed more quickly toward dharma yukam, moksha or nirvana (personal liberation). The antonym of dharma is adharma, meaning unnatural or immoral.

So Dharma and Adharma is not some trumped word exclusive to some Hindu right. It has been there in Indic faiths for a long long time.

I used Exclusive Dharmic worship because the Place of worship becomes Adharmic/ Immoral/ not correct/ not decent/ nor proper /not right, if arms, ammunition and pics of terrorists are brought in. You may choose English words, but Dharmic is a very common word in use for millenia in India and now in English and other languages too.


There is only one type of organization which actively promotes this "Dharmic" exclusivity, to bring all Eastern religions under one fold in an attempt to segregate people against the "evil" Abrahamic religions. It's the Hindu far right.

All places of worship in the laws of all countries are allowed on the premise that weapons, arms, ammo are not stocked inside. Try stocking up a Gurdwara with arms in the US or Canada, and see how exclusive the authorities become.

However you cleverly digress on the real issue that of armed militant groups taking over a place of worship and using it for political purposes to undermine the integrity of a State and it's laws. Thus a place of Worship like a Temple, Gurdwara is also meant to be exclusively a place of worship.


GT is designed with 4 entrances, one on each side, representing openness to all of mankind.

Right, so don't blame mankind and others for action taken against people/ some Sikhs who turn it (the GT) into an arms and ammo dump. If it belongs to mankind then don't start hanging pictures of Terrorists and killers on it's precincts. Be sensitive to their concerns also. Don't start assigning motives as below:,


Only reason I'm calling you out on this is because the only motive of chaps with your ideology is to drive wedges against Muslims and Christians.



Wow! Where have i driven wedges against Christians and Muslims? Using an ancient term Dharmic? You are the one putting words into my mouth. Just like in Christianity Good Vs Evil battles are norm Dharmic vs Adharmic has always been used for millenia by Indics. This is not some right wing Hindu creation.


yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata
abhyutthanam adharmasya tadatmanam srijamy aham

paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca dushkritam
dharma-samsthapanarthaya sambhavami yuge yuge
(Bhagavad-gita 4.7-8)

“Whenever there is a decline of dharma (righteousness) and a prevalence of adharma (unrighteousness), the Supreme Lord appears, millennium after millennium, to deliver the pious and annihilate the dishonest, as well as to re-establish dharma.”

That message is ingrained not in the far right but a majority of Indians and even people outside. And Krishna is considered an Avatar by your Guru's.


Sikhs believe that God is the same for all humans and they merely call him by different names. That was the whole point of using those names in the first place.


It's in the Rig Veda too. God is one but different Seers call him by different names. So it's not some exclusive Sikh belief. It's a belief prevalent in India for long before Sikhism emerged.

Tronic on the contrary the stuff that Dharma is alien to Sikhism and the preserve of a far right attempting to drive wedges against Abrahmic faiths comes only from one source amongst Sikhs. The far right.


Your delusions of Bluestar being part of some Dharma vs Adharma battle are amusing. BS happened because, Bhindranwale challenged the writ of the Indian govt. and was actively planning on seceding from the Indian union. Nothing else.


Of course. That is my premise. Do you think the GoI would have allowed stocking of arms and ammo into the premises go unchecked. Did you read my first post:


1. Bhrindranwale got arms into the Golden Temple. Not just a Holy place for Sikhs alone, but for those Dharmics who consider Jain or a Buddhist Temple, a Shiv Mandir, A Krishna temple just as holy.

2. Bhrindranwale and the Khalistani's who started managing GT affairs, prepared for War.

3. They prepared for a secession and were ably guided, armed, motivated by the Pakistani ISI.

Now here from the basic definition of Dharma given above at the top:


dharma designates those behaviours considered necessary for the maintenance of the natural order of things.[2] Therefore dharma may encompass ideas such as duty,[3] vocation, religion and everything that is considered correct, proper or decent behaviour.[/B]


If you consider bring arms into the GT as behaviour that is proper, decent, correct then i stand corrected for using the term Adharma for what Bhrindranwale and other militants did. Else i did use the right terminology wrt an Indic faith.

Double Edge
18 Oct 12,, 22:41
DE, I don't disagree with a lot you have said, except your connecting that news with the stabbing incident. 2 men have been arrested, just follow the case. Every criminal is not necessarily connected to an organized gang.
Court case begins (http://westminster.londoninformer.co.uk/2012/10/two-in-court-over-knife-attack.html) on Dec 7


Police are appealing for information after issuing descriptions of the men as of Asian appearance and wearing dark clothing, including long black jackets.

On Monday 33-year-old Barjinder Singh Sangha, from Wolverhampton, and 34-year-old Mandeep Singh Sandhu, from Birmingham, were charged with wounding with intent to cause grievously bodily harm to Lieut-General Brar.

Sangha was also charged with assaulting Mrs Brar.

Westminster magistrates remanded them in custody and adjourned the case to December 7 when they are due to appear at Southwark Crown Court.

A 27-year-old man was arrested on Sunday on suspicion of conspiracy to murder and bailed pending further inquiries.

Mixed views over the attack from UK Sikhs here (http://thelinkpaper.ca/?p=23160)

Tronic
19 Oct 12,, 00:36
So Dharma and Adharma is not some trumped word exclusive to some Hindu right. It has been there in Indic faiths for a long long time.

Just scroll down in your own wiki link to the Sikhism section. Even it tells you that the word "Dharma" means nothing more than it's English translation "Religion". As I said, it is not some individual concept; it is merely an ancient Sanskrit word meaning "Religion" as far as Sikhs are concerned.


I used Exclusive Dharmic worship because the Place of worship becomes Adharmic/ Immoral/ not correct/ not decent/ nor proper /not right, if arms, ammunition and pics of terrorists are brought in. You may choose English words, but Dharmic is a very common word in use for millenia in India and now in English and other languages too.

It may be common in your neck of woods, but not all of India. Certainly not Punjab. The word "Dharmic" means nothing in Punjabi. "Dharm" is a direct translation of the word "Religion", nothing more.

Use English if you do not wish to have your use of such words being associated with a certain ideology, since not all people come from your neck of woods.



However you cleverly digress on the real issue that of armed militant groups taking over a place of worship and using it for political purposes to undermine the integrity of a State and it's laws. Thus a place of Worship like a Temple, Gurdwara is also meant to be exclusively a place of worship.

I haven't "digressed" on anything. You are 7 pages too late into the discussion, and are just parroting what has already been said and discussed. I don't have that much time to waste.



Wow! Where have i driven wedges against Christians and Muslims? Using an ancient term Dharmic? You are the one putting words into my mouth. Just like in Christianity Good Vs Evil battles are norm Dharmic vs Adharmic has always been used for millenia by Indics. This is not some right wing Hindu creation.

If you don't mean to use those words in any other manner, than use English. It's an English forum. Dharma-Adharma mean diddly squat here.



That message is ingrained not in the far right but a majority of Indians and even people outside. And Krishna is considered an Avatar by your Guru's.

Go say that on a Sikh community forum, and I'd like to see how long you last there. :rolleyes:

Live and let live. Don't encroach on other people's religion. It's not the "majority of Indians", but you and your Hindu far right buddies which needs to understand this.



It's in the Rig Veda too. God is one but different Seers call him by different names. So it's not some exclusive Sikh belief. It's a belief prevalent in India for long before Sikhism emerged.

Good on you!

I'm not here to indulge in dick measuring contests over religion.


Tronic on the contrary the stuff that Dharma is alien to Sikhism and the preserve of a far right attempting to drive wedges against Abrahmic faiths comes only from one source amongst Sikhs. The far right.

You'd like to think that. As I say again. Go repeat all this BS on a Sikh forum, and than send me a link showing how much love you'll be receiving for making such claims.

These absurd claims are only made by the insecure Hindu far right which seeks to root out Islam and Christianity from India, while attempting to nullify independent religions such as Sikhism and Buddhism by claiming that the founders of these religions worshiped Hindu gods. You're saying nothing different here, and I'm amused that you claimed that me calling you a far Right Hindu was a "personal attack". :rolleyes:

Tronic
19 Oct 12,, 00:40
Court case begins (http://westminster.londoninformer.co.uk/2012/10/two-in-court-over-knife-attack.html) on Dec 7



Mixed views over the attack from UK Sikhs here (http://thelinkpaper.ca/?p=23160)


DE, one thing to take away from that article is that all Sikhs, be they Khalistani secessionists, or the moderates are viewing this attack as showing the community in a bad light.

lemontree
19 Oct 12,, 06:17
The message of Baba Nanak is not exclusive to the Sikhs but it is for the oneness of all of humankind.....

John Lennon -
"Imagine all the people living life in peace. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope someday you'll join us, and the world will be as one."

subba
19 Oct 12,, 07:42
Tronic:


it is merely an ancient Sanskrit word meaning "Religion" as far as Sikhs are concerned.

Tronic:


translates to "duty".
And the "duty" of Sikhs (or rather, of humans), is to seek and reunite with God. Nothing more, nothing less.

And YOU say Dharma means nothing else to Sikhs? It's just a piece of Right wing Hindu nonsense that we Sikhs merely use as a 'duty' to reuniting with God, nothing more and nothing less? Is that not just exactly what you posted?


For Sikhs, the word Dharm means the "path of righteousness". What is the "righteous path"? That is the question that the Sikh scriptures attempt to answer. The main holy scriptures of the Sikhs is called the Guru Granth Sahib. It is considered to be more than a holy book of the Sikhs. The Sikhs treat this Granth (holy book) as a living Guru. The holy text spans 1430 pages and contains the actual words spoken by the Sikh Gurus and various other Saints from other religions including Hinduism and Islam.

And that is 'mere' to Sikhs you claim? So the Path to God is mere. The path to bringing arms into GT is OK. Which side of Dharma are you on? On the 'Mere' for sure.

Dharma is 'mere' to you. Any mention of Dharma is Right wing Nonsense...yet:


The Guru Granth Sahib lays down the foundation of this "righteous path" and various salient points are found.

Sikh is bound by Dharma: The followers of this faith are bound by Dharma as advocated in their holy scriptures. The committed Sikh is encouraged to follow this path at all times. The first recitation of the Guru Granth Sahib called the Japji Sahib says the following: "The path of the faithful shall never be blocked. The faithful shall depart with honor and fame. The faithful do not follow empty religious rituals. The faithful people are fully bound to do whatever the Dharma wants them to do. Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord. Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind." (14) (Guru Granth Sahib Japji page 3.)

Deeds are recorded: The persons thoughts and deeds are said to be recorded and the faithful is warned that these will be read out in the presence of the "Lord of Dharma". Two scribes called Chitr and Gupt,[14] the angels of the conscious and the subconscious mind are busy writing ones thought and deeds. On death, the soul of the person he brought before "Lord of Dharma" are these account are read out as recoded in this quote: "Day and night are the two nurses, in whose lap all the world is at play. Good deeds and bad deeds – the record is read out in the Presence of the Lord of Dharma. According to their own actions, some are drawn closer, and some are driven farther away."[15]

Dharma administered by God: The scriptures further outline how the "Judge of Dharma" administers justice depending on the way that one has conducted life on Earth. The soul is either "cleared" or "subject to God's command" depending on the review of the person history. The holy text says: "The Righteous Judge of Dharma, by the Hukam of God's Command, sits and administers True Justice".[16] and those followers who "chant the name of the Lord" are cleared as outlined thus: "Her account is cleared by the Righteous Judge of Dharma, when she chants the Name of the Lord, Har, Har."[17]

Dharma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma)


It may be common in your neck of woods, but not all of India. Certainly not Punjab. The word "Dharmic" means nothing in Punjabi. "Dharm" is a direct translation of the word "Religion", nothing more.

Use English if you do not wish to have your use of such words being associated with a certain ideology, since not all people come from your neck of woods.


Personal attack again. My neck of woods? No the very neck of woods that your Guru's drank the nector from and formed a path we all respect, but the excluvist Khalistani's don't and you who undermine Dharma every post.


It's an English forum. Dharma-Adharma mean diddly squat here.

Nice try. But Dharma is very much in the English Vocab and all articles on Sikh Dharma i posted were in English.


Go say that on a Sikh community forum, and I'd like to see how long you last there.

Guru Nanak if he came today also would not have lasted long in your present Sikh community..it seems.


Live and let live. Don't encroach on other people's religion. It's not the "majority of Indians", but you and your Hindu far right buddies which needs to understand this.

Form a religion then, that draws nothing out of the Dharmic tradition, then talk. Don't talk about Moksha, Dharma, which you have stopped obviously. But not your texts or Guru's or the Old guy up there, the Judge of Dharma..don't borrow from the Veda, or Upanishad.. don't borrow from the Dharmic. See what you come out with.

Yes Result of that scenario: Pakistani ISI friends, Guns and Ammo and Artillery and HMGs in the Golden Temple.


I'm not here to indulge in dick measuring contests over religion.

Tronic i did not. You did. Saying Sikhism believes in this and that. You give thea airs of exclusivity. Not me. I am struggling to include folks like you in the common sense strand, that it is improper, incorrect, indecent to bring in Ammo, Arms, artillery, HMG, RPG into a place of worship.

Instead of even acknowledging once you have attacked me personally as being far right, where i am not. You have attacked Hindu's where many have given blood to protect the sanctity of the GT from those that want it to be a haven of armed political brinkmanship.


You'd like to think that. As I say again. Go repeat all this BS on a Sikh forum, and than send me a link showing how much love you'll be receiving for making such claims.

Again wrt Dharma, you seem so irked by that word. Simple question if that word irritates you, would you prefer to be called Adharmic? But while i am trying and giving my utmost respect to the Guru's and the GT, you don't hesitate to hurt my sentiments and those of millions who feel the same.

Anyways go your path. As far as i am concerned, the moment arms inflow into the GT, i will support any armed action to remove those. Your lot wants to keep the precincts hallowed, then don't put pics of terrorists and bring arms inside. That's in plain English. Don't yell human rights and mismanagement and Mortar if we evict those that do so. Simple. Whether that is Dharmic or not, God will decide. We are sure which side we are on. All the best.

Tronic
19 Oct 12,, 09:35
And YOU say Dharma means nothing else to Sikhs? It's just a piece of Right wing Hindu nonsense that we Sikhs merely use as a 'duty' to reuniting with God, nothing more and nothing less? Is that not just exactly what you posted?

That's not what I said. I said that "Dharm" in the Punjabi language is merely a word which is used interchangeably with the word "Mazab", and is a direct translation of the word "Religion".

You're clearly implying something else.


And that is 'mere' to Sikhs you claim? So the Path to God is mere. The path to bringing arms into GT is OK. Which side of Dharma are you on? On the 'Mere' for sure.

Dharma is 'mere' to you. Any mention of Dharma is Right wing Nonsense...yet:


Personal attack again.

My neck of woods? No the very neck of woods that your Guru's drank the nector from and formed a path we all respect, but the excluvist Khalistani's don't and you who undermine Dharma every post.

Nice try. But Dharma is very much in the English Vocab and all articles on Sikh Dharma i posted were in English.

Cut the crap please. You still haven't explained your use of the word Dharma.

As far as the Punjabi language goes, Sikh Dharm = Sikh Mazhab = Sikh Religion. You are clearly implying something else.

The only other implication is the "Dharma" as conceptualized by the Hindu far right, which is basically a bigot ideology postured against the Abrahamic faiths as well as nullifying the Indic religions by implying that Sikh, Buddhist, Jain messengers/prophets were practicing Hindus who worshiped Hindu dieties. Something you have already done here.



Guru Nanak if he came today also would not have lasted long in your present Sikh community..it seems.

Ofcourse, since the only folks who know the real meaning of Sikhism are the Hindu far right chaps. :biggrin:



Form a religion then, that draws nothing out of the Dharmic tradition, then talk. Don't talk about Moksha, Dharma, which you have stopped obviously. But not your texts or Guru's or the Old guy up there, the Judge of Dharma..don't borrow from the Veda, or Upanishad.. don't borrow from the Dharmic. See what you come out with.

You mean to say, don't borrow from Sanskrit. ;) Just because the words are the same does not mean that they mean the same thing for all Indic religions. For Sikhism, Moksha = Salvation. Every Sanskrit word can easily be replaced by an English word to describe the meaning. So I don't see where you're going with this.



Tronic i did not. You did. Saying Sikhism believes in this and that. You give thea airs of exclusivity.

Errrr... lol?

Because Sikhism does believe in this and that? Every religion is exclusive from one another?

The attempt at establishing a "Dharmic" front against the Abrahamic religions is quite blatantly obvious. Otherwise, why else would you beat your chest over "Dharmic", yet cry against perceived 'exclusiveness' of Sikhs. Clearly, your inclusiveness does not include the Christians and the Muslims, now does it? ;) Concealed bigotry at its best.


Not me. I am struggling to include folks like you in the common sense strand, that it is improper, incorrect, indecent to bring in Ammo, Arms, artillery, HMG, RPG into a place of worship.

I have no clue how you're connecting that with this "Dharma" song you're peddling.


Instead of even acknowledging once you have attacked me personally as being far right, where i am not. You have attacked Hindu's where many have given blood to protect the sanctity of the GT from those that want it to be a haven of armed political brinkmanship.

So now you equate the Indian army with Hindus, yet in the same breath, protest at being called a Hindu far right chap?


Again wrt Dharma, you seem so irked by that word. Simple question if that word irritates you, would you prefer to be called Adharmic? But while i am trying and giving my utmost respect to the Guru's and the GT, you don't hesitate to hurt my sentiments and those of millions who feel the same.

So me saying that Sikhism is it's own religion is hurting your sentiments, while you saying that Sikh Gurus worshiped Hindu Gods is you respecting Sikhism. :rolleyes:


Anyways go your path. As far as i am concerned, the moment arms inflow into the GT, i will support any armed action to remove those. Your lot wants to keep the precincts hallowed, then don't put pics of terrorists and bring arms inside. That's in plain English. Don't yell human rights and mismanagement and Mortar if we evict those that do so. Simple. Whether that is Dharmic or not, God will decide. We are sure which side we are on. All the best.

I still don't know what is Dharmic and how it connects to the topic.

Tronic
19 Oct 12,, 09:36
John Lennon -
"Imagine all the people living life in peace. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope someday you'll join us, and the world will be as one."

Love the song:

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/multimedia-jukebox-room/12338-what-song-you-listening-410.html#post886181

:)

Double Edge
19 Oct 12,, 10:43
DE, one thing to take away from that article is that all Sikhs, be they Khalistani secessionists, or the moderates are viewing this attack as showing the community in a bad light.
They don't want to be tainted and are trying to distance themselves from the actions of a radical few. You are in agreement here by stating that ten years ago the anti-india sentiment was stronger among sikhs living abroad than compared to the present day. The comments by the secessionists are telling in that they too don't want to be seen as a part of this whereas i'd have thought they'd be celebrating the fact that Brar got attacked. Maybe they're just a bit miffed the job was not successful :)

Whereas over here we see the actions of the radical few as a grassroots movement that could only sustain itself by the approval of the larger Sikh community abroad. We are generalising the actions of the radical few towards the majority. The attack on Brar is largely responsible for that perception taking hold. Then again minister of state & IB chief already said similar a month before Brar was attacked. So there is a self-reinforcing dynamic of both Brar & the month ago leaders narratives here.

There was one comment by the Dal Khalsa in that article i found very puzzling. It struck as being completely out of touch with ground realities in Punjab


One surprisingly held view is that the Brar affair was a “false flag” operation, another way of suggesting that this was a put up job for political reasons. “The Congress is weak and they need something to galvanise the votes before the next election”, one unnamed Sikh told a Tribune India reporter at the popular Singh Sabha Gurdwara on Park Road, Southall. He and his family make a weekly pilgrimage to this gurdwara where they take langar every Sunday before settling down to listen to the day’s kirtan. “Otherwise how is it possible that four people failed to overcome and kill one old man? There is more to this than meets the eye.”

A similar kind of argument also resonates with supporters of the militant Dal Khalsa movement in the UK. “We are facing a mass anti-Sikh media campaign by Hindutva India,” says a statement published on behalf of Dal Khalsa. “This is being done to finish off our morale to speak out against human rights abuses, to create suspicion amongst each other to divide us and to instill fear within the community up and down the UK.”
The govt in Punjab presently is a BJP ally. There is a very strong anti-congress sentiment in Punjab over the way they were treated in the 80s. So way i see it there is no way the BJP are ever going to anatagonise their Punjabi allies. In fact they will appease them to the extent possible and the proof of this is when we hear talk about memorials to Bhindranwale & his militants to be built but not for forces that lost their lives over the affair. So just cannot see any Hindutva anti-sikh interest here.

Do you know of any instances where Hindutva was championed over Sikh interests ?

Double Edge
19 Oct 12,, 11:15
If you don't mean to use those words in any other manner, than use English. It's an English forum.
Been meaning to point this out to you for a while now and you gave me the chance. Don't take it the wrong way.

I've noticed you have a tendency to say 'than' instead of 'then'. You do this often and its no typo.

than is comparative, smaller than, larger than etc.

then is imperative. telling someone to do something.

Tronic
19 Oct 12,, 20:14
They don't want to be tainted and are trying to distance themselves from the actions of a radical few. You are in agreement here by stating that ten years ago the anti-india sentiment was stronger among sikhs living abroad than compared to the present day. The comments by the secessionists are telling in that they too don't want to be seen as a part of this whereas i'd have thought they'd be celebrating the fact that Brar got attacked. Maybe they're just a bit miffed the job was not successful :)

DE, That's exactly the bias I've been trying to point out for a while now. These are nothing but preconceived notions, and whenever challenged like they have been now, are shrugged off as "maybe they're just a bit miffed the job was not successful". ;) As I said even before, a lot of Sikhs in the West are Khalistani secessionists, but that does not automatically mean that they are terrorists. It is still, at the end of the day, a political issue.



Whereas over here we see the actions of the radical few as a grassroots movement that could only sustain itself by the approval of the larger Sikh community abroad. We are generalising the actions of the radical few towards the majority. The attack on Brar is largely responsible for that perception taking hold. Then again minister of state & IB chief already said similar a month before Brar was attacked. So there is a self-reinforcing dynamic of both Brar & the month ago leaders narratives here.

DE, than the flaw is in your perception of the issue. See it from another angle, it would be akin to saying that the fringe Hindu far right groups involved in murdering Muslims in Gujarat or Christians in Orissa are only being sustained by the approval of the majority Hindu community. That perception is used by the Sikh far right groups such as Dal Khalsa, which you quoted below.


There was one comment by the Dal Khalsa in that article i found very puzzling. It struck as being completely out of touch with ground realities in Punjab

Dal Khalsa is a fringe right wing group, and their narrative is not that much different than the Indian narrative against the Sikh community abroad. The difference is that the accusations are just in the opposite direction. While one section of Indians demonizes the Sikh community abroad as a whole, the Sikh right wing demonizes the Indian community as a whole. Neither side is in touch with ground realities, or even wants to responsibly deal with the real problem.


The govt in Punjab presently is a BJP ally. There is a very strong anti-congress sentiment in Punjab over the way they were treated in the 80s. So way i see it there is no way the BJP are ever going to anatagonise their Punjabi allies. In fact they will appease them to the extent possible and the proof of this is when we hear talk about memorials to Bhindranwale & his militants to be built but not for forces that lost their lives over the affair. So just cannot see any Hindutva anti-sikh interest here.

Indian politics runs less on ideology and more on opportunistic ideals. Akalis and BJP are only allies against the Congress; while the Akali youth wing and the RSS were rioting against each other on the streets of Punjab not 6 months ago!


Do you know of any instances where Hindutva was championed over Sikh interests ?

Hindutva = Hindu nationalism. I don't see how it is possible for the BJP to champion Hindutva in a Sikh dominated state?



Been meaning to point this out to you for a while now and you gave me the chance. Don't take it the wrong way.

I've noticed you have a tendency to say 'than' instead of 'then'. You do this often and its no typo.

than is comparative, smaller than, larger than etc.

then is imperative. telling someone to do something.

Prolonged use of the internet has done terrible things to my writing skills. Being in engineering doesn't help, as writing skills are largely looked over and not given much importance. Thanks for correcting me.

Double Edge
19 Oct 12,, 22:36
DE, That's exactly the bias I've been trying to point out for a while now. These are nothing but preconceived notions, and whenever challenged like they have been now, are shrugged off as "maybe they're just a bit miffed the job was not successful". ;) As I said even before, a lot of Sikhs in the West are Khalistani secessionists, but that does not automatically mean that they are terrorists. It is still, at the end of the day, a political issue.
Right, the point about the secessionists (the two that were interviewed) is they are making out as if they've been framed. An odd response that is if one goes on the premise that groups like them were somehow involved. Miffed or not, planned or not, I don't sense any approval on their part over what happened to Brar. Nobody AFAIK has yet claimed credit for the attack.


DE, than the flaw is in your perception of the issue. See it from another angle, it would be akin to saying that the fringe Hindu far right groups involved in murdering Muslims in Gujarat or Christians in Orissa are only being sustained by the approval of the majority Hindu community. That perception is used by the Sikh far right groups such as Dal Khalsa, which you quoted below.
Like the way you turned that inside out. I've got an open mind over this as there are few odd points. We'll see what the case reveals.

What i'm trying to figure out is what's driving the narrative i've been reading about in the press here.

I think up to now for a lot of us, Punjab was a done deal, Punjab is peaceful & prosperous nowadays. Whatever happened was in the past. Finished. Over.

Then we get jolted by a shot from the past. What we thought was over isn't quite so. It seems there is a new generation out there that wants to pick up where the previous generation left off and we do not as yet know the extent of their ambition.

I've not seen any Indian articles that actually interview sikhs abroad and ask them their opinions over this incident, its just been locally generated and centred around Brar. So its very one sided that way.


Dal Khalsa is a fringe right wing group, and their narrative is not that much different than the Indian narrative against the Sikh community abroad. The difference is that the accusations are just in the opposite direction. While one section of Indians demonizes the Sikh community abroad as a whole, the Sikh right wing demonizes the Indian community as a whole. Neither side is in touch with ground realities, or even wants to responsibly deal with the real problem.
The real problem here being getting justice for those killed in the sikh riots.

I would have expected Dal Khalsa to have been more supportive of the attack but its clear they're not.


Indian politics runs less on ideology and more on opportunistic ideals.
Remember that underlined bit as i'm going to use it in part to a reply to your post in another thread.


Akalis and BJP are only allies against the Congress; while the Akali youth wing and the RSS were rioting against each other on the streets of Punjab not 6 months ago!
Yes and i don't see that changing any time soon.

How significant is this youth riot ?


Hindutva = Hindu nationalism. I don't see how it is possible for the BJP to champion Hindutva in a Sikh dominated state?
Don't follow ?

Championing Hindutva in the sense to make Punjab feel a part of India and discourage/counter secessionism. Anything beyond runs the risk of alienating the sikhs and is therefore counter-productive in the present alliance.

Firestorm
17 Jul 13,, 19:30
Sorry for resurrecting this thread, but the trial is going on now

Sikh separatists tried to slash throat of retired Indian general in London revenge attack, court hears (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/sikh-separatists-tried-to-slash-throat-of-retired-indian-general-in-london-revenge-attack-court-hears-8711051.html)




Four Sikh separatists tried to slash the throat of a retired Indian general in a revenge attack carried out on the streets of London, a court heard today.

Two of the men and a female co-defendant appeared in court accused of attacking Lt Gen Kuldip Singh Brar last year. They, along with one man who has already admitted his part in the attack and another who has never been arrested, believed retired Lt Gen Brar to be responsible for atrocities committed at the Golden Temple of Amritsar during the Indian army's crackdown on Sikh separatists in 1984, the prosecution alleged.

The prosecutor Annabel Darlow said that one of the defendants Harjit Kaur, 39, tracked the retired soldier as he holidayed in the West End with his wife Meena. She told the jury her case would prove that Ms Kaur passed on the Brars' whereabouts to the attackers on the day of the alleged assault in September last year.

The other two men Mandeep Sandhu, 34, Dilbag Singh, 37, were accused of carrying out the attack itself. All three standing trial have been charged with wounding the 78-year-old Lt Gen Brar with intent. Barjinder Sangha, 33, has admitted the same charge, the court heard. The last alleged accomplice is not involved in the case at Southwark Crown Court.

"Kuldip Brar was slashed right across the neck with a knife. He sustained very deep cuts to his face and neck," said prosecutor Annabel Darlow. She added: "Each took part in an enterprise to cause Kuldip Brar serious harm."

And Ms Darlow said: "The four [men] acted in a group, deterring anyone else from becoming involved and going to General Brar's aid and sheltering the knifeman from view. Harjit Kaur too played a crucial role silently, unobtrusively following the Brars."

Harjit Kaur wore a pink shirt as she listened to the proceedings from the dock. Her co-defendant Mandeep Sandhu wore a white shirt with dark pinstripes and Dilbag Singh a grey t-shirt. The men wore Turbans and long, dark beards. None spoke and interpreters assisted all three throughout.

Lt Gen Brar, himself a Sikh, said that he was given one of India's highest levels of protection as a result of "unlimited" threats to his life. Giving evidence via videolink from India this afternoon, he said that one website declared him the "number one enemy of the Sikhs". Another threat he said he received read: "there have been seven attempts on his life which have not succeeded, but the eighth one will."

He was not protected, however, on his trip to London, which he said was a private holiday. He added that he and his wife, who have been regular visitors to London for more than a decade, did not want a security detail because they preferred to enjoy a normal holiday. "We wanted to meet our friends and walk in Hyde Park," he said. Their protection has now been stepped up as a result of the attack, the General added.

As the prosecution opened its case today, the jury saw CCTV evidence Ms Darlow said showed the four men running away from the scene of the crime. The jury also saw footage the prosecution said showed the General falling to the floor immediately after the attack.

The jury heard that the prosecution will attempt to show that the defendants were in constant contact via mobile phone, despite rarely contacting each other before that weekend. Ms Darlow alleged that most of the group met in London at the city’s Central Gurdwara, before reconnoitring the hotel their alleged target was staying in and launching their attack.

They were tracked down, Ms Darlow said, after one of the group's discarded mobile phone was found at the scene and handed in.

Mandeep Sandhu, from Birmingham, Dilbag Singh, from London, and Harjit Kaur, from London, all deny the charges. The trial continues.