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  • Sovereignty comes with responsibility: Clinton tells Pakistan

    Sovereignty comes with responsibility: Clinton tells Pakistan

    The US supports Pakistan's sovereignty, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said, reminding Islamabad that all sovereign nations carry certain obligations like preventing threats to neighbours and the international community. "We support Pakistan's sovereignty, but we are clear that all sovereign nations carry certain obligations: to protect the human rights of their citizens, to control their territory, to prevent threats to their neighbours and the international community," Clinton told reporters in a joint press availability with her Pakistani counterpart Hina Rabbani Khar.

    Clinton's statement came as Khar during her current Washington trip called for an end to the drone strikes alleging that they violate Pakistan's sovereignty.

    The US has ruled out stopping its highly successful drone programme which targets terrorists operating inside the Pakistan tribal areas.

    "One thing that does come in the way of us being able to inspire confidence in Pakistanis is the use of unilateral strikes such as drone strikes. Because what that does is, being illegal, being counter-productive -- most importantly what it does is that it makes it again your war and not our war," Khar said.

    "It is important that this remain something that the Pakistanis are striving for their own future, and that the Pakistanis should be allowed to look at it that way. We expect from the US a deeper understanding of Pakistan's priorities, Pakistan's concerns, Pakistan's constraints also because I think sometimes we are given an overload of capacity." ".....When drone strikes are used, the message that is sent to the Pakistani people is that of United States unilateralism, which is not what it should be and which is not the partnership that we are trying to build," she said. Clinton said there is still much to be done......

    full article at:

    Sovereignty comes with responsibility: Clinton tells Pakistan - Indian Express

    ****************

    Pakistan is a sovereign country and none can dispute that.

    Yet, the manner in which governance is executed is most chaotic since there are many seats of power, the Govt, now the very active Judiciary, the usual power brokers i.e. the Army and the ISI and not forgetting the background players i.e. the Mullahs, the homegrown terrorists and the Taliban.

    Therefore, to expect a responsible response to issues affecting international interaction would be wishful thinking.

    The fact that something does come out as some coherent response, even if in a negative way, by itself is a miracle.

    Pakistan's existence is based on foreign assistance, be it in the form of monies or military gadgets or even aid in other fields.

    Hence, can Pakistan be sovereign and yet act responsibly?
    Last edited by Ray; 22 Sep 12,, 10:15.


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

  • #2
    Originally posted by Ray
    Yet, the manner in which governance is executed is most chaotic since there are many seats of power, the Govt, now the very active Judiciary, the usual power brokers i.e. the Army and the ISI and not forgetting the background players i.e. the Mullahs, the homegrown terrorists and the Taliban.

    Therefore, to expect a responsible response to issues affecting international interaction would be wishful thinking.

    Sir, ultimately the responsibility lies upon the Pakistani people to sort things out. How can they, on one hand, balk at the prospect of being labelled terror sponsors, yet, go up in arms and protest against drone strikes or Indian dossiers on Pak-based terrorists all the while being completely silent, if not being overtly supportive, to their establishment's bonhomie with various militant groups?

    As I said to AM before, "it is Pakistan's territory which is being used to attack other countries, so the onus is actually on Pakistan to prove that they are against these, as Pakistan likes to call them, "non state actors"!"

    This realization seems to be lost on most Pakistanis. Like AM claiming how things were all nice and dandy before the US showed up.
    Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
    -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

    Comment


    • #3
      Gents,you miss a thing.You're all Kufr.
      Those who know don't speak
      He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

      Comment


      • #4
        Look at it this way Ms Khar. Kinetics could definitely be worse. The US carpet-bombed in Cambodia and Laos to disrupt the Ho Chi Minh Trail.
        sigpic

        Comment


        • #5
          US policy: "If you want it done right you gotta do it yourself."
          "Draft beer, not people."

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Mihais View Post
            Gents,you miss a thing.You're all Kufr.
            The true interpretation of Kufr are the chaps , who had claimed to have converted but in actually were not quite there, who ratted on Mohammed to the authorities when he was in Mecca causing him to flee to escape persecution in Mecca to Medina.

            Apprised in time of the plan of the Quraysh to kill him, by a secret convert, they quit.
            (http://www.al-islam.org/restatement/18.htm)

            These chaps technically had converted, but did not believe in Islam in its true sense and hence Non Believers!

            Therefore, those who do not believe in Islam are indeed Non Believers, but not the classical Kufrs!

            Likewise Muslims who do not believe in other religions are Non Believers themselves to those religions.

            No great shakes not to believe in other religions!
            Last edited by Ray; 22 Sep 12,, 18:38.


            "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

            I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

            HAKUNA MATATA

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Tronic View Post
              Sir, ultimately the responsibility lies upon the Pakistani people to sort things out. How can they, on one hand, balk at the prospect of being labelled terror sponsors, yet, go up in arms and protest against drone strikes or Indian dossiers on Pak-based terrorists all the while being completely silent, if not being overtly supportive, to their establishment's bonhomie with various militant groups?

              As I said to AM before, "it is Pakistan's territory which is being used to attack other countries, so the onus is actually on Pakistan to prove that they are against these, as Pakistan likes to call them, "non state actors"!"

              This realization seems to be lost on most Pakistanis. Like AM claiming how things were all nice and dandy before the US showed up.
              I am really impressed by the time and effort you guys spend on deluded nutjobs like AM.
              For my part I stopped caring long back, we should have purged that nation with fire and sword when we had the chance.
              Now its only a matter of time until a nuke gets to the wrong hands and then we all burn.........
              For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
                I am really impressed by the time and effort you guys spend on deluded nutjobs like AM.
                Easy there with the personal attacks ;)
                “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                Comment


                • #9
                  I've made this reminder to def.pk boardmembers years ago. It should have long ago been a central tenet of our foreign policy views on Pakistan. With sovereign authority comes obligation. You can't have one without the other. Pakistan has effectively aborgated that sovereign authority in the tribal areas ages ago...to their selective advantage by avoiding the burden of obligation attendant to such.

                  They wish their cake and eat it too.
                  "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                  "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                    Easy there with the personal attacks ;)
                    Sorry bout that, I really shouldn't post after my second beer...:red: reading AMs tortured twists and turns really gets me down
                    Last edited by bolo121; 24 Sep 12,, 03:28.
                    For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      They wish their cake and eat it too.
                      Actually they are doing that!

                      And they are having two cakes and eating it too!


                      "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                      I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                      HAKUNA MATATA

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I am personally of the opinion that they are playing a marvelous act of practical diplomacy by dividing themselves in different fractured but functional units, inside otherwise, an un-fractured dysfunctional system, by blaming each other, namely the so called, secular judiciary, the chained politically correct legislative, the nationalist Army, the independent media, the tainted intelligence and NOT finally the rabid TTP. You get paid in Dollars and saved in lives with NO B-2/52s showing up in the PAF's radars. :pari:

                        Ofcourse, the MOSSAD/CIA/RAW interplay's are't lost to any thinking Pakistani national.
                        sigpicAnd on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ray View Post
                          Sovereignty comes with responsibility: Clinton tells Pakistan

                          The US supports Pakistan's sovereignty, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said, reminding Islamabad that all sovereign nations carry certain obligations like preventing threats to neighbours and the international community. "We support Pakistan's sovereignty, but we are clear that all sovereign nations carry certain obligations: to protect the human rights of their citizens, to control their territory, to prevent threats to their neighbours and the international community," Clinton told reporters in a joint press availability with her Pakistani counterpart Hina Rabbani Khar.

                          Clinton's statement came as Khar during her current Washington trip called for an end to the drone strikes alleging that they violate Pakistan's sovereignty.

                          The US has ruled out stopping its highly successful drone programme which targets terrorists operating inside the Pakistan tribal areas.

                          "One thing that does come in the way of us being able to inspire confidence in Pakistanis is the use of unilateral strikes such as drone strikes. Because what that does is, being illegal, being counter-productive -- most importantly what it does is that it makes it again your war and not our war," Khar said.

                          "It is important that this remain something that the Pakistanis are striving for their own future, and that the Pakistanis should be allowed to look at it that way. We expect from the US a deeper understanding of Pakistan's priorities, Pakistan's concerns, Pakistan's constraints also because I think sometimes we are given an overload of capacity." ".....When drone strikes are used, the message that is sent to the Pakistani people is that of United States unilateralism, which is not what it should be and which is not the partnership that we are trying to build," she said. Clinton said there is still much to be done......

                          full article at:

                          Sovereignty comes with responsibility: Clinton tells Pakistan - Indian Express

                          ****************
                          One country cannot unilaterally determine whether or not another is fulfilling its 'obligations and responsibilities as a Sovereign Nation' and then unilaterally resort to military action to 'assist in the fulfillment of those obligations and responsibilities'.

                          The US Government can take its claim of 'Pakistani not fulfilling its obligations and responsibilities as a Sovereign Nation' to the UNSC or ICJ, get a ruling/resolution favor of its claims and its preferred means of resolution to the issue and then try and argue that its drone strikes and military operations, such as the Abbottabad raid, are not illegal and a violation of international law.

                          Until then, Clinton offered a catchy sound-byte with no substance in response to Khar's well reasoned and valid comments:

                          "One thing that does come in the way of us being able to inspire confidence in Pakistanis is the use of unilateral strikes such as drone strikes. Because what that does is, being illegal, being counter-productive -- most importantly what it does is that it makes it again your war and not our war," Khar said.

                          "It is important that this remain something that the Pakistanis are striving for their own future, and that the Pakistanis should be allowed to look at it that way. We expect from the US a deeper understanding of Pakistan's priorities, Pakistan's concerns, Pakistan's constraints also because I think sometimes we are given an overload of capacity." ".....When drone strikes are used, the message that is sent to the Pakistani people is that of United States unilateralism, which is not what it should be and which is not the partnership that we are trying to build," she said."
                          Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                          https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Minskaya View Post
                            Look at it this way Ms Khar. Kinetics could definitely be worse. The US carpet-bombed in Cambodia and Laos to disrupt the Ho Chi Minh Trail.
                            Let me try and understand this - the objective behind carpet bombing Pakistan is to somehow salvage a poorly planned and executed mission of invading and occupying Afghanistan by creating another much larger version of Afghanistan in Pakistan?
                            Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                            https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                              One country cannot unilaterally determine whether or not another is fulfilling its 'obligations and responsibilities as a Sovereign Nation' and then unilaterally resort to military action to 'assist in the fulfillment of those obligations and responsibilities'.
                              Yes it can. It's called self defence.

                              The US Government can take its claim of 'Pakistani not fulfilling its obligations and responsibilities as a Sovereign Nation' to the UNSC or ICJ, get a ruling/resolution favor of its claims and its preferred means of resolution to the issue and then try and argue that its drone strikes and military operations, such as the Abbottabad raid, are not illegal and a violation of international law.
                              Or rather, Pakistan can take it to the UNSC or ICJ if it deems those actions illegal. Why always expect to be treated like a Princess free of all obligations and responsibility?

                              Until then, Clinton offered a catchy sound-byte with no substance
                              Asking your government to take responsibility of it's own lands is just a 'catchy sound-byte'?!

                              Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                              Let me try and understand this - the objective behind carpet bombing Pakistan is to somehow salvage a poorly planned and executed mission of invading and occupying Afghanistan by creating another much larger version of Afghanistan in Pakistan?
                              Who says carpet bombing Pakistan = occupying Pakistan?
                              Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                              -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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