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Tronic
21 Sep 12,, 23:27
Pak to observe September 21 as 'Love the Prophet Day'


Pakistan government today decided to observe the coming Friday as 'Love the Prophet Day' and declared it a national holiday, condemning an anti-Islam film that has led to protests across the world and here too.

The federal cabinet set aside its agenda during a meeting chaired by Prime Minister Raja Pervez Ashraf to condemn the film that has triggered protests across the Muslim world.

The cabinet decided to observe September 21 as "Youm-e-Ishq-e-Rasool" (Love the Prophet Day) to convey the government's protest. The day was also declared a national holiday.

"I intend that a message should go to the world that the federal cabinet of Pakistan strongly condemns this sacrilegious film which has created unrest amongst Muslims.

"At this moment, I call upon the people of Pakistan to register their protest peacefully but to observe restraint and not to damage their own property," Ashraf said while addressing the cabinet.

Ashraf said he had already directed the Information Technology Ministry to block YouTube "to register our protest at the availability of this sacrilegious film on the website" and to demand its immediate removal.

Interior Minister Rehman Malik told reporters that the government intended to join protests being organised on Friday after the weekly prayers as no one could tolerate the contents of the anti-Islam film.

The government will organise an 'Ishq-e-Rasool' (Love the Prophet) conference in Islamabad on Friday, Information Minister Qamar Zaman Kaira told a news conference.

Envoys of Muslim nations, federal ministers and political leaders are expected to participate in it.

"We respect the freedom of speech and expression but we cannot allow anyone or any organisation to issue hate material which is painful or defamatory to other religions," Kaira said.

A film that insults the Prophet cannot be part of freedom of expression, he said.

In Islamabad, some 500 lawyers stormed through the outer gate of the heavily fortified diplomatic enclave after marching through the streets to protest against the film.

They were later stopped at an inner cordon by riot police and a small group of lawyers was allowed to go to the US Embassy to present a memorandum.

Some of the lawyers wore headbands inscribed with slogans like "Lovers of the Prophet, death to blasphemers" and "America's friends are traitors".

They shouted slogans while their leaders made speeches against the US. The lawyers demanded that the Pakistan government should expel the US ambassador. They also laid a US flag on the ground walked over it before burning it.

In Lahore, the capital of the most populous province of Punjab, hundreds of members of the Jamaat-e-Islami and its students┐ wing, Islami Jamiat-e-Talaba, gathered near the US Consulate and protested for several hours.

Police prevented them from approaching the consulate by blocking several roads with empty containers.

The US Consulate declared a holiday for its employees to avert untoward incidents.

Students of Islamia College and Punjab University too organised demonstrations against the film. Journalists under the banner of the Punjab Union of Journalists organised a rally at Davis Road.

At most protests, people shouted slogans against the US and demanded the expulsion of the US envoy.

Jamaat-e-Islami leaders warned that they would not stop their protests till the makers of the film are hanged.

Traffic was affected on all main roads of Lahore, causing great inconvenience for motorists.

Protests were also reported from Multan, RahimYar Khan and Chakwal in Punjab, Dera Ismail Khan and Shangla in Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa, Sukkur, Karachi, Larkana, Dadu and Mirpur Khas in Sindh, and Mirpur and Muzaffarabad in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.

At many places, students, traders and members of religious groups joined the protests. Students boycotted classes and markets and schools were closed at some places.

So far, two persons have died in violent protests against the film in the southern port city of Karachi and Dir region in the northwest.

Dozens more have been injured in the protests, mostly organised by religious and hardline groups like the Jamaat-e-Islami.

Pak to observe September 21 as 'Love the Prophet Day' (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/pak-to-observe-september-21-as-love-the-prophet-day/1005018/1)

For a country with so many more pressing issues to deal with, it's really amazing that the Pak government is fixated on this! Just another day for the Pak government in diverting the attention of Pakistani masses away from the real issues facing the country. Only if educated, and middle class Pakistanis could see through this.

Agnostic Muslim
21 Sep 12,, 23:30
Only if educated, and middle class Pakistanis could see through this.

For the most part most Pakistanis do, hence the PPP led government's abysmally low popularity right now.

USSWisconsin
22 Sep 12,, 00:13
"At this moment, I call upon the people of Pakistan to register their protest peacefully but to observe restraint and not to damage their own property," Ashraf said while addressing the cabinet.



Some of the lawyers wore headbands inscribed with slogans like "Lovers of the Prophet, death to blasphemers" and "America's friends are traitors".

They shouted slogans while their leaders made speeches against the US. The lawyers demanded that the Pakistan government should expel the US ambassador. They also laid a US flag on the ground walked over it before burning it.

In Lahore, the capital of the most populous province of Punjab, hundreds of members of the Jamaat-e-Islami and its students┐ wing, Islami Jamiat-e-Talaba, gathered near the US Consulate and protested for several hours.

Police prevented them from approaching the consulate by blocking several roads with empty containers.

The US Consulate declared a holiday for its employees to avert untoward incidents.

Students of Islamia College and Punjab University too organised demonstrations against the film. Journalists under the banner of the Punjab Union of Journalists organised a rally at Davis Road.

At most protests, people shouted slogans against the US and demanded the expulsion of the US envoy.

Jamaat-e-Islami leaders warned that they would not stop their protests till the makers of the film are hanged.

It's sort of a stretch to call this protest peaceful when it solicits murder... These were lawyers? That doesn't sound much like poor, uneducated people being lead to me.

Firestorm
22 Sep 12,, 00:45
I had posted about this in the "Torn" thread. Didn't think a new thread was necessary. But now that there is one, cross posting here:

Well, trust the Pakistanis to outdo everybody else. Friday was declared a national holiday in Pakistan, to be observed as "Love the Prophet Day" so that people could protest against the now famous film without having to worry about inconvenient things like work. During the course of these government sanctioned protests, twenty people were killed including some policemen (and 160 injured), protesters set fire to multiple movie theaters, stoned a KFC outlet, robbed ATMs and indulged in creating random mayhem.

The creators of the film tried to make people believe that Islam was a violent religion. The Pakistanis sure proved them wrong.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/22/world/asia/protests-in-pakistan-over-anti-islam-film.html?pagewanted=all&_moc.semityn.www

And listen to this


The (US) State Department spent $70,000 on Urdu-language advertisements that aired on several television channels, dissociating the United States government from the inflammatory film.

Apparently this wasn't enough.

Pakistan summons acting US envoy to lodge protest against film (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/pakistan/Pakistan-summons-acting-US-envoy-to-lodge-protest-against-film/articleshow/16490020.cms)

"The US Charge D'Affaires Ambassador Richard Hoagland was summoned today by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and a strong protest was lodged with him over the blasphemous video posted on YouTube attacking the personage of the Holy Prophet Mohammed," said a statement issued by the foreign ministry.

Hoagland was told that the "US government should immediately take measures to remove the sacrilegious video from YouTube and take action against its author".

"He was reminded that all faiths need to promote inter-religious harmony and tolerance. The intentional spread of hatred among faiths is an attack on humanity itself," the statement said

Another interesting nugget: Embassies close in fear of more protests | News - Home (http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/Embassies-close-in-fear-of-more-protests/-/1719418/16672654/-/djkrl1z/-/index.html)


Children chant 'Death to America'

This comes a day after about 100 small children in Karachi repeated anti-American slogans during a protest in the coastal Pakistani city, a police official said.

Video showed children repeating an adult voice, "Death to America" and "Any friend of America is a traitor."

"Punish the blasphemer," children chanted Thursday. One placard read, "Shut down website of blasphemous film."

At least four teachers accompanied the children to the demonstration, Qadir said. There did not appear to be any parents there.
The children are being indoctrinated.

Bigfella
22 Sep 12,, 01:01
Last I heard there were over a dozen dead & numerous buildings trashed.

I suspect there is some sort of metaphor for Pakistan over the last 30 odd years here: the government brings the entire nation to a halt to pander to religious extremism & the result is a bunch of dead Pakistanis, property damage & yet one more step away from being a functional society. Way to go Pakistan government!

Tronic
22 Sep 12,, 02:20
For the most part most Pakistanis do, hence the PPP led government's abysmally low popularity right now.

And the Mullah loving PTI's increasingly high popularity.

lemontree
24 Sep 12,, 05:23
Well, the idiots in Pakistan, went and burnt an 82 year old Lutheran church and school in the town of Mardan, near Peshawar...and desecrated the alter and tore copies of the Bible, this happened on "Love your Prophet Day". I'm glad they separated from India in 1947.

Ray
24 Sep 12,, 12:55
Well, the idiots in Pakistan, went and burnt an 82 year old Lutheran church and school in the town of Mardan, near Peshawar...and desecrated the alter and tore copies of the Bible, this happened on "Love your Prophet Day". I'm glad they separated from India in 1947.

Why are you surprised?

That is their style!

Did you not notice how they threw out the NE Indians (and there were a sizeable Christians) out of Mumbai and elsewhere back to the NE because the tribal Bodo (Lutheran Church, if you will) kicked the living hell out of the illegal Muslim Bangladeshis who were taking over their land inspite of Indian laws not allowing anyone to buy or usurp tribal land?

Tronic
25 Sep 12,, 03:40
Why are you surprised?

That is their style!

Did you not notice how they threw out the NE Indians (and there were a sizeable Christians) out of Mumbai and elsewhere back to the NE because the tribal Bodo (Lutheran Church, if you will) kicked the living hell out of the illegal Muslim Bangladeshis who were taking over their land inspite of Indian laws not allowing anyone to buy or usurp tribal land?


To be fair, sir, there have been Christian churches burnt down by Hindu right wing groups in Eastern India and Sikh Gurudwaras have been burnt down in the US, Australia and England. These nutjobs are not specific only to Pakistan, or specific to Muslims alone.

The difference here is the reaction to such nutjobs. When Christian churches were being burnt down in Orissa, the rest of India went up in arms! When the recent Gurudwara shooting happened in the US, you saw all Americans stand up in support of the Sikh community! But when we see minorities under attack in Pakistan, all Pakistanis seem to look the other way. Not one protest, not one voice rising up against persecution of minorities. When a voice, Salman Taseer, did rise in support of minorities, he was promptly shot dead and his killer celebrated as a public hero in Pakistan! Taseer was a "liberal extremist" you see. :rolleyes:



Well, the idiots in Pakistan, went and burnt an 82 year old Lutheran church and school in the town of Mardan, near Peshawar...and desecrated the alter and tore copies of the Bible, this happened on "Love your Prophet Day". I'm glad they separated from India in 1947.

LT, the same as I said above to the Brigadier. The act itself is gruesome but not Pakistan specific. It is the Pakistani permissiveness towards such acts which is disturbing.

That said, I feel for that tiny minority of Pakistanis who are helplessly watching their country slide down into the abyss. I came across an article from a Pakistani source and it goes to show the frustrations of the very small moderate minority of Pakistan! An unposted letter to PM Singh | DAWN.COM (http://dawn.com/2012/09/10/an-unposted-letter-to-pm-singh/)

lemontree
25 Sep 12,, 05:16
Why are you surprised?

That is their style!
Sir, not surprised, just amused at how "Love your Propfet Day" is interpreted...


Did you not notice how they threw out the NE Indians (and there were a sizeable Christians) out of Mumbai and elsewhere back to the NE because the tribal Bodo (Lutheran Church, if you will) kicked the living hell out of the illegal Muslim Bangladeshis who were taking over their land inspite of Indian laws not allowing anyone to buy or usurp tribal land?
This attacks on NEs happened in Bangalore, Mysore, some attacks in Pune...but as far I as I know there were no attacks in Mumbai. Most of the NE live in christian majority localities. Another reason for the absence on attacks was the Muslim protest turns riot on 11 Aug in south Mumbai, this left all the trouble makers in jail or on the run.

The best part is that the Mumbai Police tracked and arrested the two men who desecrated the unknown soldier memorial.

lemontree
25 Sep 12,, 05:19
LT, the same as I said above to the Brigadier. The act itself is gruesome but not Pakistan specific. It is the Pakistani permissiveness towards such acts which is disturbing.
But is'nt that the case even in Kashmir....the muslims leaders there are quiet when the terrorists commit atrocities.
The muslim world remains quiet when the Syrian govt butchers hundreds of its muslim citizens....

Tronic
25 Sep 12,, 08:38
But is'nt that the case even in Kashmir....the muslims leaders there are quiet when the terrorists commit atrocities.

I disagree LT. There are several Kashmiri clerics who speak against the terrorists and they have sometimes even paid with their lives to do so: Bomb Kills Muslim Cleric in Kashmir (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/09/world/asia/09kashmir.html?_r=0)


The muslim world remains quiet when the Syrian govt butchers hundreds of its muslim citizens....

I wasn't contesting that point.

lemontree
25 Sep 12,, 13:04
I disagree LT. There are several Kashmiri clerics who speak against the terrorists and they have sometimes even paid with their lives to do so: Bomb Kills Muslim Cleric in Kashmir (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/09/world/asia/09kashmir.html?_r=0)

The Hurriyat is quiet today when a village sarpanch has been killed for not resiging from his elected post, but they were very vocal in asking Americans to leave the Kashmir valley because of a hate film on youtube.

They have always remained quiet.

The clerics who have been killed are because of their views towards being pro or anti Pakistan.

Tronic
25 Sep 12,, 21:03
The Hurriyat is quiet today when a village sarpanch has been killed for not resiging from his elected post, but they were very vocal in asking Americans to leave the Kashmir valley because of a hate film on youtube.

They have always remained quiet.

LT, I'm appalled that you consider Hurriyat, the chaps who are shit scared to run in Kashmir's elections, to be the representatives of Kashmiri Muslims and to be their "Muslim leaders"!


The clerics who have been killed are because of their views towards being pro or anti Pakistan.

Well, speaking against terrorists is an anti-Pak stance, I suppose.

cr9527
25 Sep 12,, 21:56
"We respect the freedom of speech and expression but we cannot allow anyone or any organisation to issue hate material which is painful or defamatory to other religions," ~Information Minister Qamar Zaman Kaira


Oh that statement makes me laugh...

Firestorm
25 Sep 12,, 23:33
LT, I'm appalled that you consider Hurriyat, the chaps who are shit scared to run in Kashmir's elections, to be the representatives of Kashmiri Muslims and to be their "Muslim leaders"!
Well, whoever the representatives of the Kashmiri Muslims are, all of them either remained quiet or joined the bandwagon when Kashmiri Pandits were hounded out of their own homes and forced to live a life of penury as refugees in their own country. Many of them still live in makeshift homes. Ask any Kashmiri Pandit who lived through those times and they'll tell you stories of how their neighbors and friends whom they had known for years turned against them when the extremists started cleansing the valley of Hindus.

You agree that Pakistani permissiveness towards the persecution of minorities in their country is egregious. You need to ask the question why such permissiveness was on full display in India when the only Muslim majority state in the country started kicking out its minorities.

antimony
26 Sep 12,, 00:37
Well, whoever the representatives of the Kashmiri Muslims are, all of them either remained quiet or joined the bandwagon when Kashmiri Pandits were hounded out of their own homes and forced to live a life of penury as refugees in their own country. Many of them still live in makeshift homes. Ask any Kashmiri Pandit who lived through those times and they'll tell you stories of how their neighbors and friends whom they had known for years turned against them when the extremists started cleansing the valley of Hindus.

You agree that Pakistani permissiveness towards the persecution of minorities in their country is egregious. You need to ask the question why such permissiveness was on full display in India when the only Muslim majority state in the country started kicking out its minorities.

A crying shame.

I am no friend of BJP, but I completely support their platform of repealing Article 370 and ending this special status stupidity. Kashmir belongs to us all, end of story.

Ray
26 Sep 12,, 04:39
You agree that Pakistani permissiveness towards the persecution of minorities in their country is egregious. You need to ask the question why such permissiveness was on full display in India when the only Muslim majority state in the country started kicking out its minorities.

It is called the 'Vote Bank'.

The Muslims can tilt the vote result in India and so they have to be kept happy.

Apparently, the Muslims the world over are very sensitive when it comes to their co religionists.

Britain is facing the same issue - Vote Bank politics!

lemontree
26 Sep 12,, 04:47
LT, I'm appalled that you consider Hurriyat, the chaps who are shit scared to run in Kashmir's elections, to be the representatives of Kashmiri Muslims and to be their "Muslim leaders"!
Whether you like it or not and concsider them the "voice of Pakistan" or the voice of the people. You must visit Lal Chowk during friday prayers and hear the Mirwiz speak, and see the support he gets.


Well, speaking against terrorists is an anti-Pak stance, I suppose.
There examples are very very few. They are at best people who did not toe the Pak line and were eliminated.

Tronic
26 Sep 12,, 05:14
Well, whoever the representatives of the Kashmiri Muslims are, all of them either remained quiet or joined the bandwagon when Kashmiri Pandits were hounded out of their own homes and forced to live a life of penury as refugees in their own country. Many of them still live in makeshift homes. Ask any Kashmiri Pandit who lived through those times and they'll tell you stories of how their neighbors and friends whom they had known for years turned against them when the extremists started cleansing the valley of Hindus.

You agree that Pakistani permissiveness towards the persecution of minorities in their country is egregious. You need to ask the question why such permissiveness was on full display in India when the only Muslim majority state in the country started kicking out its minorities.


It is the responsibility of the government to protect it's minorities, and sadly, everyone played politics with the Kashmiri pandits. The BJP has an equal hand in the mass exodus of the Pandits from the valley, just because they wanted to score brownie points against their rivals! When I speak of Pakistani 'permissiveness', I'm not merely talking about the people, but the entire system! The Pakistani government itself has systematically eradicated the minorities; will you say the same for the Kashmiri government? The Kashmiri government has been courting the pandits to return!

Tronic
26 Sep 12,, 05:22
Whether you like it or not and concsider them the "voice of Pakistan" or the voice of the people. You must visit Lal Chowk during friday prayers and hear the Mirwiz speak, and see the support he gets.

LT, but the fact remains, the people continue to vote for a moderate government with record voting turnouts!


There examples are very very few. They are at best people who did not toe the Pak line and were eliminated.

The religious extremists are also a minority, but it is only because we give them precedence and brush aside the moderates like this, that they hog the limelight.

Firestorm
26 Sep 12,, 07:43
It is the responsibility of the government to protect it's minorities, and sadly, everyone played politics with the Kashmiri pandits. The BJP has an equal hand in the mass exodus of the Pandits from the valley, just because they wanted to score brownie points against their rivals!

You seem to display an uncharacteristic ignorance of ground realities I must say. The Pandit population was being mercilessly terrorized. There had been many targeted killings. Every evening taped slogans of "Kashmir me agar rehna hai, Allah-o Akbar kehna hai" (If you want to live in Kashmir, you have to say Allah is great) and "Yahan kya chalega, Nizam-e-Mustafa" (what will work here? Muhammad's law i.e Rule of Shariah) were blaring from the mosque loudspeakers. And the state administration, nearly all of whom were muslims merely sat back and watched. The most that the BJP did was help some of them get out of Kashmir. And you are accusing them of having an equal hand and scoring brownie points? Ridiculous!



When I speak of Pakistani 'permissiveness', I'm not merely talking about the people, but the entire system! The Pakistani government itself has systematically eradicated the minorities; will you say the same for the Kashmiri government? The Kashmiri government has been courting the pandits to return!
Empty offers! Are they willing to guarantee their safety this time? Why should the Kashmiri pandits expect different treatment now? Furthermore many of the ancestral properties of pandits were vandalized and taken over by their neighbors after the exodus. Who will return them? It is easy for the government to "court" them 20 years later knowing fully well that many of them have started new lives in other parts of the country and are unlikely to return.

Edit: Another disgusting slogan that was heard from Kashmiri mosques during those days: "Asi gachchi Pakistan, Batao roas te Batanev san" (We want Pakistan along with Hindu women but without their men).
It's in Kashmiri.

Tronic
26 Sep 12,, 09:18
You seem to display an uncharacteristic ignorance of ground realities I must say. The Pandit population was being mercilessly terrorized. There had been many targeted killings. Every evening taped slogans of "Kashmir me agar rehna hai, Allah-o Akbar kehna hai" (If you want to live in Kashmir, you have to say Allah is great) and "Yahan kya chalega, Nizam-e-Mustafa" (what will work here? Muhammad's law i.e Rule of Shariah) were blaring from the mosque loudspeakers. And the state administration, nearly all of whom were muslims merely sat back and watched. The most that the BJP did was help some of them get out of Kashmir. And you are accusing them of having an equal hand and scoring brownie points? Ridiculous!

Not saying that the Pandits didn't have it bad in the valley, afterall, the late '80s were the start of Pakistan's Jihad against Kashmir. What I'm stating is that it was the responsibility of the state to look after the Pandits, but after Tika Lal's death, BJP went into overdrive, politically inducing the Kashmiris to leave the valley, claiming the Indian state had failed them. This was to show the Congress government in a bad light while stoking the Hindu right wing movement, playing on people's anger. The Indian state was never given the chance to step in, and once India did move in, the Kashmiri pandits had already left. This only played to the separatists, as the BJP effectively segregated Kashmiris and derailed India's argument for a secular state; which in turn showed that India does not belong in Kashmir!



Empty offers! Are they willing to guarantee their safety this time? Why should the Kashmiri pandits expect different treatment now? Furthermore many of the ancestral properties of pandits were vandalized and taken over by their neighbors after the exodus. Who will return them? It is easy for the government to "court" them 20 years later knowing fully well that many of them have started new lives in other parts of the country and are unlikely to return.

Well, I can't answer the rhetorical questions, but yes, the Kashmir government has not only guaranteed their safety, but has even laid out a roadmap for such. Although, it is also true that the valley's economy is in tatters and there are no opportunities, hence there is little incentive for the Kashmiri pandits to return. The separatists are still there, but the writ of the Indian state is now fully enforced, unlike the late '80s.

lemontree
26 Sep 12,, 11:40
LT, but the fact remains, the people continue to vote for a moderate government with record voting turnouts!
Tronic, it is not so simple. One has interacted with the local population at great lengths, since I was posted there. I have spent a lot of time with the village elders in my area of responsibility sharing a hookah with them. For them, they vote for NC in the assembly elections and Congress in the General elections. PDP had the other J&K parties were non-significant in the Poonch/ Rajouri sectors. There is no other choice for the population but to vote for the NC.


The religious extremists are also a minority, but it is only because we give them precedence and brush aside the moderates like this, that they hog the limelight.
It is not who hogs the lime light, but who controls the people that matters, either by terror, by governance or charisma.

lemontree
26 Sep 12,, 11:45
Not saying that the Pandits didn't have it bad in the valley, afterall, the late '80s were the start of Pakistan's Jihad against Kashmir. What I'm stating is that it was the responsibility of the state to look after the Pandits, but after Tika Lal's death, BJP went into overdrive, politically inducing the Kashmiris to leave the valley, claiming the Indian state had failed them. This was to show the Congress government in a bad light while stoking the Hindu right wing movement, playing on people's anger. The Indian state was never given the chance to step in, and once India did move in, the Kashmiri pandits had already left. This only played to the separatists, as the BJP effectively segregated Kashmiris and derailed India's argument for a secular state; which in turn showed that India does not belong in Kashmir!

BJP had little role in the decisions of the people. Try and get your hands on a book written by Ved Marwah "Uncivil Wars". It gives a vivid account of the various crisis situations were the govt of India gooffed up or came through.

USSWisconsin
26 Sep 12,, 14:16
I don't know what to think of Pakistan :confused:

A few observations

I personally know some Pakistani's - I work with them - they are good people, I suspect the majority of the people there are good people
I am aware of drone attacks in Pakistan - IMO, this can't be helping US/Pakistan relations
Pakistan appears to be a hotbed for terrorist activities
This gov't sponsored holiday - which appears to be a hate the US day is mind numbing


Is Pakistan's Government Secular or a Theocracy?

Officer of Engineers
26 Sep 12,, 16:58
It amazes me that people think that God needs defenders.

ambidex
26 Sep 12,, 17:19
Not saying that the Pandits didn't have it bad in the valley, afterall, the late '80s were the start of Pakistan's Jihad against Kashmir. What I'm stating is that it was the responsibility of the state to look after the Pandits, but after Tika Lal's death, BJP went into overdrive, politically inducing the Kashmiris to leave the valley, claiming the Indian state had failed them. This was to show the Congress government in a bad light while stoking the Hindu right wing movement, playing on people's anger. The Indian state was never given the chance to step in, and once India did move in, the Kashmiri pandits had already left. This only played to the separatists, as the BJP effectively segregated Kashmiris and derailed India's argument for a secular state; which in turn showed that India does not belong in Kashmir!

This like reading a Jihad apologist living in J&K, giving clean chit to Muslims of J&K who were supporting jihad against India and Hindus.

What Pandits did was after a long wait and inaction by part of GoI for not intervening in time. What BJP did was natural of any opposition or a political party ridiculing government in power. There was nothing over done, this what they all do, this what Sikhs did after few days of riots they fled from all over India to take refuge in Punjab, this what people from NE living in Southern parts of India did just after 2 days of hate SMS dissemination by rouge elements recently.

Murder of Kashmiri Hindus and their prominent leader, hate speeches from mosques that Hindus should flea the valley but leave their women behind was good enough excuse for their mass exodus from Kashmir.

Your logic that it BJP segregated Muslims from Hindus or vise a verse is laughable.

Firestorm
26 Sep 12,, 22:10
Not saying that the Pandits didn't have it bad in the valley, afterall, the late '80s were the start of Pakistan's Jihad against Kashmir. What I'm stating is that it was the responsibility of the state to look after the Pandits, but after Tika Lal's death, BJP went into overdrive, politically inducing the Kashmiris to leave the valley, claiming the Indian state had failed them. This was to show the Congress government in a bad light while stoking the Hindu right wing movement, playing on people's anger. The Indian state was never given the chance to step in, and once India did move in, the Kashmiri pandits had already left. This only played to the separatists, as the BJP effectively segregated Kashmiris and derailed India's argument for a secular state; which in turn showed that India does not belong in Kashmir!


It is quite painful to see an otherwise well-read and intelligent young Indian post this. I have seen similar arguments before though. Usually the entire blame for the exodus is put either on the then governor Jagmohan (for "scripting" the exodus) or even sometimes on the pandits themselves for leaving the state. You have expanded that to blame the BJP. This is no different from sundry Indian politicians hinting at the role of "Hindu fanatics" whenever there is a terrorist attack in India (which eventually all turn out to be the handiwork of radical Muslim groups).

In this case the basic technique is to blame anyone and everyone but the ordinary Kashmiri Muslims who wholeheartedly joined in terrorizing the Pandits and making it clear to them that they were no longer welcome to stay in their own homeland. What Jagmohan and the BJP did was to help the Kashmiris leave, to avoid further loss of innocent life. Helping them implement a decision which they had taken themselves. Nobody induced them to go. Jagmohan did this when the state government had abdicated its responsibility towards the Pandits. Make no mistake, if the Pandits hadn't left, there would have been a massacre.

It must have taken a lot for a Gandhi family confidant like jagmohan to turn his back on the Congress. He, unlike other leaders of the time, could not bear to sit idly by while a small helpless community was terrorized by a much larger bloodthirsty one. At that point the Pandits had pretty much no other alternative but to leave.

Of course in the interests of being "secular" the guilt of the Kashmiri Muslims has been white-washed and the blame conveniently put on the BJP for "segregating" Kashmiri pandits and spoiling India's "secular" credentials. Those who gleefully kicked out minorities from their state remain "secular" in the eyes of people who make such arguments.

Pedicabby
27 Sep 12,, 01:01
I personally know some Pakistani's - I work with them - they are good people, I suspect the majority of the people there are good people


They are a nice enough group of people. I have been to Pak twice and expect to roll through about this time next year and i have never had a problem. Very hospitable as Muslem's tend to be.

Agnostic Muslim
27 Sep 12,, 12:42
And the Mullah loving PTI's increasingly high popularity.

PTI is popular because of the nationalistic and anti-corruption positions it takes, and not because of its positions on religious issues. If religion was a driving factor in the popularity of political parties, then the existing Islamist parties such as the Jamat-e-Islami etc, which are considered to be the most organized political institutions at the grass-roots level, would have easily been the most popular political entities in Pakistan.

Agnostic Muslim
27 Sep 12,, 12:50
Is Pakistan's Government Secular or a Theocracy?
The government is an extremist pandering, corrupt and utterly inept bunch of criminals.

The first part, extremist pandering, is a necessity for this government since they have little to no public support given their corruption and failure at running the country in almost every aspect. The extremist groups will continue to display their 'street power' until the government decides to take a stance and accept the political cost of the bloodshed that will ensue when it deploys security forces to shoot down mobs resorting to violence and raids and shuts down the Madrassa's that provide the manpower for the violence (which does not mean that all the protesters and madrassas are complicit in the violence merely because they show up to protest) and arrest and incarcerate their leadership.

Firestorm
28 Sep 12,, 01:08
After indulging in "peaceful" and "tolerant" rioting on Aashiq-e-rasool (Love the Prophet) day in their own country, Pakistanis are set to bring the peace and tolerance to their close ally the US of A.

Pakistani community in USA to project message of tolerance through Ashiq-e-Rasool Conferences (http://app.com.pk/en_/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=209819&Itemid=1)

I'm sure the Americans will be delighted.

lemontree
28 Sep 12,, 05:54
After indulging in "peaceful" and "tolerant" rioting on Aashiq-e-rasool (Love the Prophet) day in their own country, Pakistanis are set to bring the peace and tolerance to their close ally the US of A.

Pakistani community in USA to project message of tolerance through Ashiq-e-Rasool Conferences (http://app.com.pk/en_/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=209819&Itemid=1)


I'm sure the Americans will be delighted.

:biggrin:

Tronic
28 Sep 12,, 06:10
PTI is popular because of the nationalistic and anti-corruption positions it takes, and not because of its positions on religious issues. If religion was a driving factor in the popularity of political parties, then the existing Islamist parties such as the Jamat-e-Islami etc, which are considered to be the most organized political institutions at the grass-roots level, would have easily been the most popular political entities in Pakistan.

A few points here, AM.

People in Pakistan would not like to be ruled by Mullahs whose only political argument has been in regards to people's adherence to strict religious code, without having any economic policy at all or even a plan on how to run a country! The Mullah certification is only an important factor for Pakistanis to establish a "nationalistic" identity, and to tread the argument for a two-nation theory.

Without the Mullahs, the anti-US posturing, the bonhomie with Kashmiri militants, PTI looses it's "nationalistic" appeal. It's a symptom of the Pakistani identity crisis, and it is with good reason that even Pakistan's socialist leader, Zulfiqar Bhutto, felt the need to keep the Mullahs happy by establishing discriminatory laws against Pakistan's minorities such as the Ahmadis.

Secondly, when I call PTI, 'the darling of the Pakistani masses', I mean it in the exact same context as the Jamat-e-Islami mullahs. A party which mobilizes at the grass roots level to pressurize the government to sway one way or another. The PTI itself plays no significant political role itself, and I highly doubt that it will be able to seriously challenge Pakistan's established parties even in the future. The PTI will remain a minnow in Pakistani politics, and, will continue to be even less significant than the Jamaat! Ofcourse, you're probably cringing at all this, so let's just wait till the next elections to prove me right. :biggrin:

Oh, and from a Pakistani music band video. ;)

30330

Deltacamelately
28 Sep 12,, 14:10
After indulging in "peaceful" and "tolerant" rioting on Aashiq-e-rasool (Love the Prophet) day in their own country, Pakistanis are set to bring the peace and tolerance to their close ally the US of A.

Pakistani community in USA to project message of tolerance through Ashiq-e-Rasool Conferences (http://app.com.pk/en_/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=209819&Itemid=1)

I'm sure the Americans will be delighted.
:biggrin::tongue:

Agnostic Muslim
01 Oct 12,, 13:24
A few points here, AM.

People in Pakistan would not like to be ruled by Mullahs whose only political argument has been in regards to people's adherence to strict religious code, without having any economic policy at all or even a plan on how to run a country! The Mullah certification is only an important factor for Pakistanis to establish a "nationalistic" identity, and to tread the argument for a two-nation theory.

Without the Mullahs, the anti-US posturing, the bonhomie with Kashmiri militants, PTI looses it's "nationalistic" appeal. It's a symptom of the Pakistani identity crisis, and it is with good reason that even Pakistan's socialist leader, Zulfiqar Bhutto, felt the need to keep the Mullahs happy by establishing discriminatory laws against Pakistan's minorities such as the Ahmadis.

Secondly, when I call PTI, 'the darling of the Pakistani masses', I mean it in the exact same context as the Jamat-e-Islami mullahs. A party which mobilizes at the grass roots level to pressurize the government to sway one way or another. The PTI itself plays no significant political role itself, and I highly doubt that it will be able to seriously challenge Pakistan's established parties even in the future. The PTI will remain a minnow in Pakistani politics, and, will continue to be even less significant than the Jamaat! Ofcourse, you're probably cringing at all this, so let's just wait till the next elections to prove me right. :biggrin:



The religious element in Pakistani politics is not that different from the religious element in US politics (especially on the conservative/Republican side, though it appears to be lessening with time). In my opinion you are performing a lot of mental contortions to try and make the presence of religion in Pakistani politics something unique to Pakistan.

The PTI had its nationalistic appeal before any of its members showed up at the DFP rallies. The PTI and Imran Khan also continue to be the target of abuse and allegations by more conservative elements in Pakistani society, of being too 'liberal'. I fail to see the reason behind the label of 'Mullah supporter' given to the PTI since neither Imran Khan, nor the PTI manifesto, speak of 'reducing rights for women, gender segregation, shutting down music, film and art, ending education for women' etc. These 'Mullah' accusations are largely propagated by that very 'liberal extremist/fascist crowd' that we debated earlier, because they simply cannot stomach an alternative to their beloved, corrupt PPP and its Bhutto monarchy.

The PTI, if it ever comes to power, will probably be the equivalent of the AKP in Turkey, ideologically at least.