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Triple C
05 Aug 12,, 22:56
Seven dead including the shooter. One police officer and two others were wounded; officer in critical condition.

Sikh temple shooting: at least six worshippers killed in Wisconsin | World news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/05/gunman-sikh-temple-wisconsin)

Gunman, six others dead at Wisconsin Sikh temple - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/05/us/wisconsin-temple-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1)

Oakland PD calls this an incident of domestic terrorism; FBI is leading investigations.

Triple C
05 Aug 12,, 22:58
Those of you who believe in a higher power might want to send a prayer for the wounded. The wounded officer is the one who arrived first, engaged, and put down the shooter.

JAD_333
05 Aug 12,, 23:17
I hope people are as horrified by this shooting as they were by the Colorado theater shooting.

devgupt
05 Aug 12,, 23:31
Sikh Temple shooting being treated as domestic terrorism, Oak Creek police say - JSOnline (http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/reports-of-people-shot-at-sikh-temple-in-oak-creek-qc6cgc0-165059506.html)

FBI is treating it as a domestic terrorism issue.

bigross86
05 Aug 12,, 23:40
Condolences

Bigfella
06 Aug 12,, 00:13
terrible

Officer of Engineers
06 Aug 12,, 00:52
God Bless

Double Edge
06 Aug 12,, 01:30
FBI is treating it as a domestic terrorism issue.
Huh ? :confused:


One of the temple's committee members, Ven Boba Ri, said that based on communication with people inside the temple, the shooter was a white male in his 30s.

"We have no idea," he said of the motive. "It's pretty much a hate crime. It's not an insider."

According to Ri, the man started shooting after he walked up to a priest who was standing outside, and shot him.

Then he went inside and started shooting.


Gurcharan Grewal, president of the Sikh Religious Society of Wisconsin said he has heard no theories on the shooter's motivation.

"Nobody knows," he said. "There was no indication, no warning, nothing. I think it was just some isolated hate crime or something. "

However


Oak Creek Police Chief John Edwards said he could not release any information on the shooter, including what the shooter was wearing, saying there are "multiple reports" of different things. He said there were multiple weapons at the scene, but did not say how many or what variety.

Whilst channel surfing between the olympics, i heard an interviewer ask a sikh this question.

What are your religion's core beliefs :rolleyes:

JAD_333
06 Aug 12,, 01:49
Whilst channel surfing between the olympics, i heard an interviewer ask a sikh this question.

What are your religion's core beliefs :rolleyes:


Needs to be asked. We don't know much about sikhs in this country. Here's a snippet from BBC news. Probably a very superficial skim.




Sikhism at a glance

Sikhism is a monotheistic faith founded more than 500 years ago in South Asia
Observant Sikhs do not cut their hair; male followers often wear turbans and do not shave their beards
The faith has about 27 million followers worldwide. There are up to 500,000 Sikhs in the US, where they have sometimes been confused with Muslims
In Sept 2001, an Arizona gas station owner, Balbir Singh Sodhi, was shot dead by a man said to be seeking revenge on Muslims for 9/11
BBC News - Seven killed in Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19138754)

Tronic
06 Aug 12,, 02:39
May the departed souls find peace, and may God grant strength to the families of the victims. I also pray for a quick recovery of all the injured people still in critical condition, including the brave officer who took down the culprit and saved more innocent lives despite being critically wounded himself.

Tronic
06 Aug 12,, 02:48
Whilst channel surfing between the olympics, i heard an interviewer ask a sikh this question.

What are your religion's core beliefs :rolleyes:

Considering the fact that post-9/11, Sikhs have faced the brunt of the hate attacks in the US, from a Gurudwara being burnt down to several Sikh men being shot dead over the years, the question is not misplaced at all. Sikhs are often wrongly associated with Bin Laden or the Taliban, due to the turbans, therefore that question merely attempts to address the real problem, i.e., ignorance.

antimony
06 Aug 12,, 02:55
Despicable,

Innocent and brave lives lost and a peaceful place violated :((

USSWisconsin
06 Aug 12,, 03:26
Shocking and terrible. A monstrous deed. Very close to home too.

My Sympathies to the victims. Many thanks to the brave policeman who ended the rampage, I wish him a speedy recovery - he is a hero IMO.

S2
06 Aug 12,, 05:10
"...Very close to home too..."

Indeed. Just read about it in the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel. Like others here, my prayers for the victims, condolences to the families left behind and grateful thanks to the police officer that ended these heinous killings.

devgupt
06 Aug 12,, 05:42
I went to a candlelight vigil event in memory of the Sikh victims in downtown Milwaukee. What was comforting was that it was organised by locals and they were present in large numbers.Many of them shook hands with the memebrs of Indian community and asked us to talk about Sikhism.We all chanted prayers for the victims and wished recovery to those injured.

hammer
06 Aug 12,, 08:03
Very sad. :-(

tankie
06 Aug 12,, 08:21
I hope people are as horrified by this shooting as they were by the Colorado theater shooting.

I see no reason for there not to be .

RIP .

Hats off to the cop who wasted the bastard perp .

Tronic
06 Aug 12,, 08:28
Good to see the Officer being recognized for his bravery. It also reminds us of the constant risk these men in uniform face.



Gurudwara killings: Sikh group announces gallantry reward for 'ambushed' cop (http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/gurudwara-killings-sikh-group-announces-gallantry-award-for-ambushed-cop-251601)

Oak Creek, Wisconsin: Sikhs for Justice, a US-based human rights advocacy group, has announced a gallantry award of USD 10,000 for the police officer, who was injured in Sunday's Gurudwara shooting incident, said Sikhsiyasat, a Sikh-centric website.

Six people were killed and three others were wounded in a Gurudwara in Oak Creek in Wisconsin when a gunman opened fire.

One of the first officers to arrive at the scene after the gunman's indiscriminate firing was shot multiple times, according to Oak Creek Police Chief John Edwards. The officer, who was ambushed, is undergoing surgery at a nearby hospital and is expected to survive, said the police chief.

The killer, whose identity is not known yet, was killed by a second police officer, who arrived at the scene.

Bigfella
06 Aug 12,, 08:46
I went to a candlelight vigil event in memory of the Sikh victims in downtown Milwaukee. What was comforting was that it was organised by locals and they were present in large numbers.Many of them shook hands with the memebrs of Indian community and asked us to talk about Sikhism.We all chanted prayers for the victims and wished recovery to those injured.

It is a pity that sometimes it takes the most terrible events to remind us how much our similarities overpower our differences. Congratulations to all those who attended. I knw that Australia's growing Sikh community will be feeling this deeply today. Fortunately such incidents are relatively rare here.

JAD_333
06 Aug 12,, 16:06
I went to a candlelight vigil event in memory of the Sikh victims in downtown Milwaukee. What was comforting was that it was organised by locals and they were present in large numbers.Many of them shook hands with the memebrs of Indian community and asked us to talk about Sikhism.We all chanted prayers for the victims and wished recovery to those injured.

This is very heartening. Bravo to the good people of Milwaukee.

Vinod2070
06 Aug 12,, 16:45
RIP to the victims and gratitude to the brave officer for saving many innocent lives.

A really shocking incidence. It seems more awareness needs to be created about Sikhism to avoid such events, all for no fault of the Sikhs. They are just being caught in the crossfire.

Officer of Engineers
06 Aug 12,, 16:58
I hope to hell that brave officer is married. Otherwise, the offers of marriage would be unbearable.

Firestorm
06 Aug 12,, 17:32
My heartfelt condolences to the families of the victims. And gratitude for the brave police officers who battled the madman.

Apparently the shooter was ex-army.

Video: Sikh temple massacre gunman named as Wade Michael Page - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9454685/Sikh-temple-massacre-gunman-named-as-Wade-Michael-Page.html)




Sikh temple massacre gunman named as Wade Michael Page

The gunman who killed six Sikh worshippers at their temple in Wisconsin before being shot dead by police has been named as Wade Michael Page, a 40-year old army veteran who was discharged for drunkeness.

According to US Army sources, Page enlisted in April 1992 and was given a "less-than-honorable discharge" in October 1998, CBS reported.

He served at Fort Bliss, Texas, in a Hawk missile repair unit in 1994, and was last stationed with the rank of sergeant at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, also attached to the psychological operations unit. The details of his discharge were not immediately clear.

American law enforcement officers and the FBI raided a duplex on Monday morning thought to belong to the gunman, described as a tall, bald, tattooed white man in his 40s, who opened fire on Sikhs just before Sunday services had begun.

Page was a "frustrated neo-Nazi" who led a racist white supremacist band, the Southern Poverty Law Centre's Hatewatch websitee saidon Monday.

According to the civil rights organisation, he told a white supremacist website in an interview in 2010 that he had been part of the "white power "music scene since 2000, when he left his native Colorado and started the band, End Apathy, in 2005..
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Four people were shot dead inside the sprawling Sikh temple in Oak Creek, Milwaukee. Three more, including the gunman, were killed outside.

Witnesses to the shooting and neighbours of Page said that he had had a tattoo marking the September 11 2001 attacks.

Thomas Ahern, a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms Special Agent said the suspect had tattoos that led the authorities to investigate whether he was a "skin head or "white supremacist".

"It is being investigated. And what his tattoos signified is being investigated. They are all pieces of a possible puzzle to learn what was his motive in carrying out such a horrific act," he said.

Teresa Carlson, the FBI’s Milwaukee Special Agent in charge of the investigation said: “While the FBI is investigating whether this matter might be an act of domestic terrorism, no motive has been determined at this time.”

Manmohan Singh, the Indian Prime Minister, and a Sikh, said he was shocked and saddened by the attack.

"That this senseless act of violence should be targeted at a place of religious worship is particularly painful," he said.

"I hope the American authorities would investigate who is behind this dastardly attack on innocent devotees and that they will ensure that such ghastly events do not take place."

A police operation on Monday morning in Cudahy, a nearby suburb in Milwaukee county, involved numerous law enforcement agencies and heavy military-style equipment in a raid on an apartment thought to be rented by the gunman..

Kurt Weins, the suspected gunman’s landlord, said the flat, an upper story duplex, was rented by the single man in his 40s last month. He is believed to have moving there are breaking up wiuth his girlfriend.

“I had him checked out and he definitely checked out,” he told the Wisconsin Sentinel newspaper.

Mr Weins said the FBI had asked him not to name the man. “The cops told me they don't want me to say nothing right now.”

Officials said the gunman had entered the kitchen of the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin in suburban Milwaukee at about 10:30am (4.30pm BST) where women were preparing a Sunday meal.

After opening fire on Sikh worshippers and killing four people, the gunman ambushed and shot a police officer who was responding to a 911 emergency call. A second officer shot and killed the gunman.

"The officer stopped a tragic event that could've been a lot worse," said John Edwards, the Oak Creek police chief.

The wounded officer was taken to a hospital and is expected to survive. Hospital officials said two other victims, also in critical condition, were being treated.

There is suspicion in the Sikh community that they targeted because they were mistaken for Muslims.

Religious tradition means that Sikh Indians wear turbans to cover their uncut hair and sport long beards.

In the United States they have often been mistaken for Muslims and have been targeted by anti-Islam activists, particularly after the September 11, 2001 attacks.

“I think it is a case of mistaken identity. Sikhs are often mistaken to be from the Middle East,” Manpreet Singh Badal, founder-president of People's Party of Punjab told AFP.

“America is a place where you have the occasional loony, the misguided lot, firing randomly at vulnerable people.”

American white supremacists expressed concern on web forums on Sunday that the mass killing at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin might hurt their cause.

Analysis by the SITE terrorist monitoring service of extremist online chat found commentators gloomily predicting that the attack would strengthen the hand of minority groups and gun control advocates.

“This isn't good folks, no matter which way you slice it! Damn,” declared a webuser posting as “Proud White Chap” as news broke of the shooting, in which six people plus the shooter died.

“I fully expect Jewish, Black, Latino, Muslim and Gay special interest groups railing against our right to guns,” he predicted, adding: “All because of some mental case or buffoon nitwit.”

"JoeyJoeJoe" on the Stormfront "white nationalist" forum posted: “We'll probably hear how he thought they were Muslims and went on some rant. GOD DAMMIT. I'm sick of these God damn idiots ruining the reputation of our race," he complained.”

Stormfront member "whitehouse90310" warned: "This was a BIG mistake if white nationalists were involved. Let's hope they are white Muslims."

The attack came just over two weeks after a gunman killed 12 people at a theater in Aurora, Colorado, where they were watching a screening of new Batman movie "The Dark Night."

Double Edge
06 Aug 12,, 17:41
I knw that Australia's growing Sikh community will be feeling this deeply today. Fortunately such incidents are relatively rare here.
Attacks on gurdwaras (no casualties)
Shepparton (http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/gurdwara-attacked-in-australia-sikhs-appeal-for-security-report/1/140185.html), Victoria, Austraila in Jun 2011

But the wisconsin attack is a first if you compare with recent incidents which were all sikh on sikh.

Surrey (http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/08/29/15183476.html), BC, Canada in Aug 2010 - personal feud, 1 shot

Bedford (http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/04/sikh_community_baffled_by_memb.html), Cleveland, OH in Apr 2010 - deranged member, killed by the police. no casualties

Vienna (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/vienna-gurdwara-shooting-visiting-sikh-guru-dies/465401/0), Austria in May 2009 - Feud between two groups, 30 injured

Sacramento (http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Men_shot_outside_Sikh_Temple), CA in Sept 2008 - personal feud, 1 shot

Smethwick (http://www.birminghampost.net/news/west-midlands-news/tm_headline=police-seek--disguised--gunman&method=full&objectid=18177048&siteid=50002-name_page.html), Birmingham, UK in Nov 2006 - personal feud, 2 injured

antimony
06 Aug 12,, 18:08
While following this thread, I came across member of the Sikh community as well as members of the media stressing that Sikhs are not, in fact, Muslims. This leaves me feeling a bit weird.

I understand that consternation on the part of the Sikh community given how they have been affected. However I cannot help but feel that religion or in fact any identity does not matter in a case Would it have been any less despicable if this killer had done his rampage in a mosque, or in any gathering of any type of innocent unarmed people? I think not...

McFire
06 Aug 12,, 18:08
RIP to the Sikhs in Wisconsin. Yet another tragedy caused by a whack-job.


Meanwhile, in Barry/Barrack's hometown of Chicago (where guns are outlawed)...the news we don't see reported from Big Media:


Chicago July 24th: 14 people shot, 2 dead

Chicago July 22nd: 4 people shot – two age 13, two age 16

Chicago July 21st: 21 people shot, 3 dead

Chicago July 20th: 6 people shot, two sixteen year olds dead


I'm thinking a vacation to Afghanistan would be safer than a trip to Chicago! :eek:

Albany Rifles
06 Aug 12,, 18:53
McFire,

Leave the politics out of this thread.....take it to the American Politics thread.

A crying shame.

USSWisconsin
06 Aug 12,, 19:23
Attacks on gurdwaras (no casualties)
Shepparton (http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/gurdwara-attacked-in-australia-sikhs-appeal-for-security-report/1/140185.html), Victoria, Austraila in Jun 2011

But the wisconsin attack is a first if you compare with recent incidents which were all sikh on sikh.

Surrey (http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/08/29/15183476.html), BC, Canada in Aug 2010 - personal feud, 1 shot

Bedford (http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/04/sikh_community_baffled_by_memb.html), Cleveland, OH in Apr 2010 - deranged member, killed by the police. no casualties

Vienna (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/vienna-gurdwara-shooting-visiting-sikh-guru-dies/465401/0), Austria in May 2009 - Feud between two groups, 30 injured

Sacramento (http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Men_shot_outside_Sikh_Temple), CA in Sept 2008 - personal feud, 1 shot

Smethwick (http://www.birminghampost.net/news/west-midlands-news/tm_headline=police-seek--disguised--gunman&method=full&objectid=18177048&siteid=50002-name_page.html), Birmingham, UK in Nov 2006 - personal feud, 2 injured

We don't know the gunman's motive yet. So far it looks like a case of hatred directed against people who superficially resemble Muslims. There are many cases on record of murderous acts done with this feeble excuse.

Double Edge
06 Aug 12,, 20:57
We don't know the gunman's motive yet. So far it looks like a case of hatred directed against people who superficially resemble Muslims.
Sure, it would be very interesting to know what this guys MO was.

Confusing Sikhs with muslims 11 years after 9-11 seems a stretch to me.


There are many cases on record of murderous acts done with this feeble excuse.
Beatings, harrassment & vandalism yes, murderous acts only a handful (http://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/06/us/sikhs-bias-crimes/index.html).

Certainly nothing of this magnitude before ever. Where the attacker goes to a place of worship or any establishment where one can expect to find numerous members of the community with the intention of killing as many as he can. That is a first.

USSWisconsin
06 Aug 12,, 23:24
Sure, it would be very interesting to know what this guys MO was.

Confusing Sikhs with muslims 11 years after 9-11 seems a stretch to me.


Beatings, harrassment & vandalism yes, murderous acts only a handful (http://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/06/us/sikhs-bias-crimes/index.html).

Certainly nothing of this magnitude before ever. Where the attacker goes to a place of worship or any establishment where one can expect to find numerous members of the community with the intention of killing as many as he can. That is a first.

It would be a huge stretch if there was a normal human being involved. The media could very well be wrong - these hypothetical motives are just guesses by journalists who are looking at an incomprehensible act of terror.

It is a horrible thing, which defies understanding. The perp should get some special treatment in hell, IMO. Its just as well that he was not captured alive - someone like that would only hurt more people if given a chance (even if they were his guards or fellow inmates).

Double Edge
07 Aug 12,, 00:41
It would be a huge stretch if there was a normal human being involved. The media could very well be wrong - these hypothetical motives are just guesses by journalists who are looking at an incomprehensible act of terror.
White guy goes to a gurudwara to shoot up a bunch of Sikhs. How does that work.

I can't get my head around that. Why go to the trouble to figure out where Sikhs hang out.

Why target Sikhs in particular. Sikhs are in minority within a minority.

There's any number of other communities he could have picked on.

The guy in Aurora was more normal. He did not care who he shot so long as he shot somebody.

Officer of Engineers
07 Aug 12,, 00:53
I can't get my head around that.Don't try. I put down rabid animals without ever trying to get into their heads.

USSWisconsin
07 Aug 12,, 00:58
Gurudwara's offer community meals to anyone of any faith.


Worship in a gurdwara consists chiefly of singing of passages from the scripture. Sikhs will commonly enter the gurdwara, touch the ground before the holy scripture with their foreheads. The recitation of the eighteenth century ardās is also customary for attending Sikhs. The ardās recalls past sufferings and glories of the community, invoking divine grace for all humanity.[39]

The Sikh faith also participates in the custom of "Langar" or the community meal. All gurdwaras are open to anyone of any faith for a free meal. People can enter and eat together and are served by faithful members of the community. This is the main cost associated with gurdwaras and where monetary donations are primarily spent.
Sikhism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism)

Tronic
07 Aug 12,, 02:08
While following this thread, I came across member of the Sikh community as well as members of the media stressing that Sikhs are not, in fact, Muslims. This leaves me feeling a bit weird.

I understand that consternation on the part of the Sikh community given how they have been affected. However I cannot help but feel that religion or in fact any identity does not matter in a case Would it have been any less despicable if this killer had done his rampage in a mosque, or in any gathering of any type of innocent unarmed people? I think not...

The identity matters since this is a hate crime in a series of hate crimes where Sikhs have been singled out and targeted post-9/11 due to their distinct turbans. Some people automatically associate the turban with Bin Laden and his ideology, which is wrong. The point is not at all to discriminate between Muslims and Sikhs, and I felt this point was put forth quite concisely by the chairman of the Sikh Council on Religion and Education, Rajwant Singh, on CNN when he talked of how the Gurudwaras are open to all faiths and how historically in Punjab, Muslims, Christians and Hindus alike visit and pray at the Golden Temple and other Gurudwaras. The point is to fight ignorance where some people associate the turban with religious extremism in general. This is not the case.

Tronic
07 Aug 12,, 02:18
Gurudwara's offer community meals to anyone of any faith.


Sikhism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism)

Community service, or service to humanity, is seen as a way to become closer to God.

BBC has a nicely summarized page on the core Sikh beliefs: BBC - Religions - Sikhism: Sikh Beliefs (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/sikhism/beliefs/beliefs.shtml)

Bigfella
07 Aug 12,, 03:04
Looks like the shooter was ex-military & had been involved in white supremacist groups for over a decade.


WASHINGTON: The Sikh community was in shock and mourning last night after six people were killed in another mass shooting in the US, this time at a Sikh temple in Oak Creek, a suburb of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. The shooter was also killed.

He has been named by a US defence official as Wade Michael Page, a 40-year-old army veteran. Page was discharged honourably from the army in 1998 after six years of service. He had been a Hawk missile repairman and a ''psychological operations specialist,'' said the official, who asked for anonymity to release the details.

Page was described as 183 centimetres tall, light skinned, bald, and with a ''9-11'' tattoo. He appeared to target turbaned men as he moved through the building yesterday and fired without speaking, temple member Kanwardeep Singh Kaleka told CNN.

A spokesman for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, Thomas Ahern, said FBI agents said they were treating the shootings as a ''domestic terrorism-type incident''


Read more: Army veteran named as gunman who killed six Sikhs at temple (http://www.theage.com.au/world/army-veteran-named-as-gunman-who-killed-six-sikhs-at-temple-20120806-23q4z.html#ixzz22p1ImhSE)

Tronic
07 Aug 12,, 03:05
Mourning Victims, Sikhs Lament Being Mistaken for Radicals or Militants


Sikhs in New York and across the country on Monday mourned the deaths in the shooting rampage at one of their temples outside Milwaukee, and some said the killings revived bitter memories of the period just after the Sept. 11 attacks when their distinctive turbans and beards seemed to trigger harassment and violence by people who wrongly assumed that they were militant Muslims.

Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg went to a Sikh temple in Queens and praised Sikhs for their contributions to the community. The mayor vowed to maintain security for New Yorkers of all faiths.

Nancy Powell, the American ambassador to India, where the vast majority of the world’s 25 million Sikhs live, visited a temple in New Delhi and expressed horror and solidarity. Elsewhere, Sikhs reflected on the uncomfortable fact that because their appearance sets them apart, they are sometimes mistakenly singled out as targets. Observant Sikh men often wear turbans and do not cut their hair or shave their beards.

“I have been called Osama bin Laden walking down the street, because in the popular imagination a turban is associated with bin Laden and Al Qaeda,” said Prabhjot Singh, who works in the high-tech industry near San Francisco. “But 99 percent of the people who wear turbans in the United States are Sikhs, so they face a disproportionate number of acts of discrimination.”

In collecting data about post-Sept. 11 hate crimes, the Justice Department does not draw a distinction between Sikhs and Muslims, an entirely separate religion. A report from October says, “In the first six years after 9/11, the department investigated more than 800 incidents involving violence, threats, vandalism and arson against persons perceived to be Muslim or Sikh, or of Arab, Middle Eastern or South Asian origin.”

Sikhism, a monotheistic faith that emerged from the Punjab region of India about 500 years ago, is one of the world’s youngest major religions. It emphasizes self-reliance and individual responsibility and draws its tenets from the words of 10 gurus. The last guru, named Singh, as are many Sikhs today, died in 1708.

More than many other religious practitioners, Sikh men wear a uniform: unshorn hair and a small comb covered by a turban; a steel bracelet; and, for a certain group of initiates, a sword known as a kirpan.

The religion is known for promoting women to positions of power, and has championed social justice.

British colonialists in India tended to favor the Sikhs, viewing them as more Western than the Hindus and Muslims, who made up the vast majority of the population there.

“Historically in India there has been tension between the Sikhs and the ruling elite, whether Muslim or Hindu,” said Harpreet Singh, a Sikh who is finishing a doctorate in South Asian religions at Harvard and helped found the Sikh Coalition in 2001 to help Sikhs stand up for their rights. “The gurus didn’t want to pay the non-Muslim tax. Sikhs grew in numbers and became a political force.”

The prime minister of India, Manmohan Singh, is a Sikh from Punjab, and on Monday he expressed sorrow and condemnation for the killings of six people at a Wisconsin temple on Sunday by a man who appeared to have ties to a white supremacist movement. The gunman was killed by the police.

Other recent acts of violence against Sikhs — the defacing in February of a temple in Michigan, the beating of a cabdriver in California in late 2010 — involved mistaken references to Al Qaeda or militant Islam. The first post-Sept. 11 killing classified as a hate crime took place in Arizona, where a Sikh was gunned down by a man who is now serving a life sentence.

In the Jackson Heights section of Queens on Monday, Sikh men in russet, black and peach-colored turbans swept leaves from the fronts of stores selling saris and gold jewelry, and offered discounts to passers-by. Many talked about the Wisconsin rampage.

“Very sad. I was shocked,” said Harbinder Singh, who works at a grocery. “We have not done any harm to anyone. Why are we targeted? Maybe some other religions have done harm. They think that we are the same. Maybe that’s the reason.”

Inder Mohan Singh, 73, who owns a Western Union location, lives in Woodbury on Long Island and has been in the United States for 40 years.

“I’m just an ordinary man, just like other people, just like other Americans,” he said. “I should cut my hair? No one is going to change. I’m wearing the turban. I have to do it. I don’t want to say, ‘No, now I’m not going to wear my turban because of this man.’ ”

He added: “This is our religion. We cannot leave our religion for one man.”

Sarah Maslin Nir, Sharon Otterman and Kate Taylor contributed reporting.

Sikhs Mourn Victims and Lament Post-9/11 Targeting - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/07/us/sikhs-mourn-victims-and-lament-post-9-11-targeting.html)[/QUOTE]

Tronic
07 Aug 12,, 03:07
Looks like the shooter was ex-military & had been involved in white supremacist groups for over a decade.




Read more: Army veteran named as gunman who killed six Sikhs at temple (http://www.theage.com.au/world/army-veteran-named-as-gunman-who-killed-six-sikhs-at-temple-20120806-23q4z.html#ixzz22p1ImhSE)

They seemed to have had tabs on him for a long time, but since he never had a criminal record, they never expected him to go rabid against innocents.

Blademaster
07 Aug 12,, 03:20
Don't try. I put down rabid animals without ever trying to get into their heads.

"He needed killin'"

lemontree
07 Aug 12,, 05:26
If an ex-army guy was ignorant about the differences between Sikhs and muslims, then it is time that difference is illustrated.
The irony is that the Sikh or the Khalsa (pure) is a warrior who rose for the defence of the hindus during the tyranny of the islamic ruler of the Mughal Empire.

A lot awareness in needed to avoid such tragic incidents.

Blademaster
07 Aug 12,, 05:33
If an ex-army guy was ignorant about the differences between Sikhs and muslims, then it is time that difference is illustrated.
The irony is that the Sikh or the Khalsa (pure) is warrior who rose for the defence of the hindus during the tyranny of the islamic ruler of the Mughal Empire.

A lot awareness in needed to avoid such tragic incidents.

But why do we need to illustrate such differences? It should be enough to know that the people at the temple were law abiding citizens and not terrorists or such. There shouldn't be any difference between Sikhs, muslims, Hindus, Christians, or Jews.

The point remains that the scumbag shouldn't have killed those people because killing an innocent is wrong no matter what their faith, creed, or orientation are. It is one of the bedrock of this American country. This scumbag was no American. He was a traitor to the ideals of this country that many soldiers and brave law abiding citizens have fought for.

Deltacamelately
07 Aug 12,, 06:26
Police identify Army veteran as Wisconsin temple shooting gunman

By the CNN Wire Staff

August 7, 2012 -- Updated 0230 GMT (1030 HKT)

Oak Creek, Wisconsin (CNN) -- An Army veteran who neighbors say played in a far-right punk band was the lone shooter in the rampage at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin that killed six people and wounded four, according to information Monday from law enforcement authorities.

Wade Michael Page, 40, was shot to death by police responding to the Sunday morning attack in the Milwaukee suburb of Oak Creek, the community's chief of police told reporters.

A long history of bias crimes against Sikhs

Sunday's attack occurred 16 days after a gunman killed 12 people and wounded scores in a Colorado movie theater, reigniting the gun-control debate in the United States.

"These kinds of terrible and tragic events are happening with too much regularity for us not do some soul-searching and examine additional ways that we can prevent" such violence, President Barack Obama told reporters when asked about the Wisconsin shooting at a White House bill-signing ceremony.

However, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg criticized Obama and certain Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney for not advocating tougher laws to prevent dangerous people from obtaining guns.

Witnesses: This is sad, devastating
"The fact that criminals, terrorists and other mentally ill people have access to guns is a national crisis," Bloomberg said during a visit to a Sikh community center in Queens.

Bernard Zapor -- the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives special agent in the investigation -- said Monday that the 9mm semiautomatic handgun with multiple ammunition magazines used by the attacker had been legally purchased.

Page bought the gun on July 28 at the Shooters Shop in West Allis, Wisconsin, and picked it up two days later, according to a law enforcement official. The suspect bought ammunition there and used the shop's range at some point, said the official.

The gunman shot people inside and outside the Sikh house of worship, including a police officer, Oak Creek Police Chief John Edwards said. Another police officer with a rifle then shot the gunman, who died at the scene.

Read Obama's statement on the Wisconsin shooting

While authorities said Page was the only gunman, they also had been looking for another man spotted at the crime scene Sunday who left before anyone could identify him. On Monday, the FBI's Paul Bresson said the man being sought had been "located, interviewed and cleared." Edwards said authorities were still in contact with that person.

According to Edwards and the FBI, authorities have received tips that Page might have links to the white supremacist movement, but nothing had been confirmed. "I don't want to use that term (white supremacist) until we want to put it out there for sure," Edwards said Monday night. "That's not something I can take back."

Authorities are following up on numerous leads and are still reviewing exterior videos of the temple, Edwards told CNN's "AC360." Investigators haven't identified a known motive, he said.

Two neighbors of Page identified him in photos that showed him playing in the far-right punk band "End Apathy," and the nephew of the slain president of the Sikh temple said the attacker had a 9/11 tattoo on his arm.

Teresa Carlson, the FBI special agent in charge of the investigation of Sunday's shooting, said no motive for the attack has been established. The FBI was looking into whether it was domestic terrorism, which is the use of violence for political or social gain, Carlson said.

"We are looking at ties to white supremacist groups," Carlson told a news conference, adding there was no active investigation of Page prior to Sunday's attack.

According to a man who described himself as an old Army buddy of Page's, the attacker talked about "racial holy war" when they served together in the 1990s. Christopher Robillard of Oregon, who said he lost contact with Page more than a decade ago, added that when Page would rant, "it would be about mostly any non-white person."

"He didn't seem like the type of person to go out and hurt people," Robillard said. "He would talk about it all the time, but it was more like he was waiting for the ... revolution to start."

Page, born on Veterans Day in 1971, joined the Army in 1992 and left the service in 1998, according to Army spokesman George Wright. His service was marked by "patterns of misconduct," though he received an honorable discharge, according to a Pentagon official.

The suspect did have a criminal record, Edwards said. A background check showed Page had separate convictions for DUI in Colorado in 1999 and for criminal mischief in Texas in 1994.

A federal law enforcement official told CNN that investigators interviewed a former girlfriend of Page. The woman said the pair had recently broken up, and she told investigators she had no indication Page planned such an attack. She provided the names of friends and associates of Page, the official said.

Page's family said it was "devastated by the horrific events," according to the Journal Sentinel newspaper.

"While there can be no words of comfort that will make sense of what happened that day, please be aware that our thoughts and prayers go out to all the victims and their families," the family said in a text message, according to the newspaper.

"We share in their grief for all who lost their lives that day and for those survivors, we hope for a speedy recovery. We have been cooperating and will continue to cooperate with the investigation in any way we can. Please respect our privacy as we try to deal with the tragic loss of life and family."

Obama noted Monday that the motive for attack had yet to be determined, but if it turns out to be based on the ethnicity of the worshipers, "I think the American people immediately recoil from those kinds of attitudes."

Because of their customary beards and turbans, Sikh men are often confused with Muslims, and they have been the targets of hate crimes since the 9/11 terrorist attacks on New York and Washington.

The six victims of Sunday's attack were identified by police as five men -- Sita Singh, 41; Ranjit Singh, 49; Satwant Singh Kaleka, 65; Prakash Singh, 39, and Suveg Singh, 84 -- and one woman, 41-year-old Paramjit Kaur.

Photos: Shooting at the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin

Two other Sikh victims remained hospitalized in critical condition, while a third was treated and released, Edwards said.

Prayer vigils were held Monday night in the Milwaukee metropolitan area, with another scheduled for Tuesday evening.

The wounded police officer, identified as 51-year-old Lt. Brian Murphy, also was in critical condition, the police chief said. Edwards told CNN's "Erin Burnett OutFront" that Murphy had a "promising," but long, recovery ahead. The officer suffered nine gunshot wounds.

One of the dead, Prakash Singh, was a priest who recently immigrated to the United States with his wife and two young children, said Justice Singh Khalsa, a temple member since the 1990s.

Relatives of Kaleka, the president of the temple in Oak Creek, Wisconsin, said that he was killed fighting the attacker.

"From what we understand, he basically fought to the very end and suffered gunshot wounds while trying to take down the gunman," said Kanwardeep Singh Kaleka, his nephew.

Kaleka said those inside the gurdwara, or Sikh house of worship, described the attacker as a bald white man, dressed in a white T-shirt and black pants and with the 9/11 tattoo on one arm, which "implies to me that there's some level of hate crime there."

Belief Blog: Who are Sikhs?

While officials try to piece together what prompted the man to go on his shooting spree, America's Sikh community struggled to come to grips with the brutal attack.

A Sikh human rights group said it would give a $10,000 reward to Murphy, the police officer wounded in the attack.

"Our government must take urgent steps to educate the country about the Sikh population and help put an end to these horrific and deadly acts of violence," said a statement by the group, Sikhs for Justice.

Kaleka was horrified to have such violence occur at his place of worship, especially so soon after the 12 killings at a screening of the Batman movie "The Dark Knight Rises" in Aurora, Colorado.

"You're talking about Aurora one minute, and the next minute it's you and your family," Kaleka said.

Meanwhile in India, the birthplace of Sikhism, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said he was "shocked and saddened" by the shooting.

"That this senseless act of violence should be targeted at a place of religious worship is particularly painful," Singh, himself a Sikh, said.

The country's main Sikh political party, the Shiromani Akali Dal, held a demonstration in New Delhi's embassy district Monday to protest.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton spoke by phone with India's foreign minister, and U.S. Ambassador Nancy Powell met with Sikh community leaders in New Delhi and visited the largest Sikh temple in the city, said State Department spokesman Patrick Ventrell.

Sunday's attack occurred about 10:30 a.m., when temple members were reading scriptures and cooking food in preparation for the main Sunday service and community lunch. The temple has more than 350 members.

According to witnesses, the gunman started shooting in the parking lot, killing at least one person. He then entered the temple and continued firing, they said. Police spent Sunday night searching the shooter's home in nearby Cudahy, a short distance from the temple.

Political leaders at the national, state and local level offered condolences for the killings and declared solidarity with the Sikh community.

Obama ordered U.S flags flown at half-staff through Friday "as a mark of respect for the victims of the senseless acts of violence."

In a statement Sunday, Obama said the United States had been "enriched" by Sikhs, and that his administration "will provide whatever support is necessary to the officials who are responding to this tragic shooting and moving forward with an investigation."

Romney, meanwhile, called the slayings "a senseless act of violence and a tragedy that should never befall any house of worship."

Romney: A 'senseless act of violence'

The United States is home to about 700,000 Sikhs, nearly all of Indian origin, according to the Sikh American Legal Defense and Education Fund. The men are easily identifiable by their beards and turbans, a tradition that's lasted for 500 years.

Obama: Shooting a 'tragedy'

Six people were killed in a shooting rampage. Share your thoughts and remembrances.

CNN's Tom Cohen, Brian Todd, Harmeet Shah Singh, Poppy Harlow, Ed Payne, Ted Rowlands, Marlena Baldacci, Matt Smith, Steve Almasy, Greg Botelho, Phil Gast, Shawn Nottingham, Carol Cratty, Susan Candiotti and Deborah Feyerick contributed to this report.
Police identify Army veteran as Wisconsin temple shooting gunman - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/06/us/wisconsin-temple-shooting/index.html)

Rest in peace.

One wonders how banning legally owned firearms for civilians, can possibly stop such incidents? Psychologically ill, criminal minded, people with terrorist links and sundry will not vanish over night, nor will they fail to procure such weapons from illicit sources. Some may even manufacture such domestically.

We have a very stringent weapon licence procuring system back in India, that doesn't stops firearms killing anyway. Not that I personally advocate for the system of any country to allow sale of fire weapons OTC, but it just doesn't seems sufficient that such a step can alome eradicate this menace.

Deltacamelately
07 Aug 12,, 06:37
Well, it seems there already exists another thread on the same topic in the WAB Pub.

Mods, request you to kindly merge both the threads.

Tronic
07 Aug 12,, 07:53
If an ex-army guy was ignorant about the differences between Sikhs and muslims, then it is time that difference is illustrated.
The irony is that the Sikh or the Khalsa (pure) is a warrior who rose for the defence of the hindus during the tyranny of the islamic ruler of the Mughal Empire.

OT;

Captain, the wars of that time were largely political, although they were fought with great religious zeal.

It was the 9th Guru, Tegh Bahadur, who stood up for the Kashmiri Hindus after observing the Mughal army under their General, Iftikhar Khan, forcefully threatening to convert them by force. Guru Tegh Bahadur had however been on cordial terms with the Mughals prior to this (despite the Sikhs previously being on the opposing side during the Mughal war of succession) and had even traveled with the Mughal army to Assam to try and broker an agreement between the Mughals and the Ahom. Nevertheless, Guru Tegh Bahadur's opposition to the Mughal policies in Kashmir (Aurangzeb had ordered Iftikhar Khan to give the Kashmiri pandits six months to convert or face death) resulted in his execution.

His son, Guru Gobind Singh's first ever battle was against the Sivalik Rajas who felt threatened by the growing Sikh political power and attempted to wipe him and his small Sikh contingent out at the Battle of Bhangani. It was the Sufi saint, Pir Buddhu Shah, who sent an army of Pasthuns led by Kale Khan to assist the Sikh armies at the time. After the establishment of the Khalsa, it was not only the Mughals, but a combined force of Mughals and the Sivalik Rajas which descended upon Anandpur Sahib to wipe out the Khalsa army, during the first and second Battles of Anandpur.

The Khalsa army rose to prominence and grew in its wars against the Afghans and the Durrani Empire, not as much during the wars against the Mughals.

The subcontinent's history has become a victim due to the communal whitewash of history in Pakistan, and the indifference and lack of pre-partition history in the education curriculum in India.

Double Edge
07 Aug 12,, 08:52
in collecting data about post-sept. 11 hate crimes, the justice department does not draw a distinction between sikhs and muslims, an entirely separate religion. A report from october says, “in the first six years after 9/11, the department investigated more than 800 incidents involving violence, threats, vandalism and arson against persons perceived to be muslim or sikh, or of arab, middle eastern or south asian origin.”
A very pertinent point !

Just see (http://www.deccanherald.com/content/269693/sikhs-have-faced-over-700.html) the way my local daily put it :rolleyes:

lemontree
07 Aug 12,, 13:01
But why do we need to illustrate such differences? It should be enough to know that the people at the temple were law abiding citizens and not terrorists or such. There shouldn't be any difference between Sikhs, muslims, Hindus, Christians, or Jews.

The point remains that the scumbag shouldn't have killed those people because killing an innocent is wrong no matter what their faith, creed, or orientation are. It is one of the bedrock of this American country. This scumbag was no American. He was a traitor to the ideals of this country that many soldiers and brave law abiding citizens have fought for.

Fine dont educate the masses.

lemontree
07 Aug 12,, 13:03
OT;

Captain, the wars of that time were largely political, although they were fought with great religious zeal.

My point was to show that the Khalsa panth grew as a force against islamic tyranny.
Pre-partition history of the Sikh empire is better left alone, the intrigue and treachery numbs the soul.

Officer of Engineers
07 Aug 12,, 14:43
Fine dont educate the masses.Critical mass, Captain, there simply is not enough Sikhs in the US to have an impact on the American psyche to differentiate. Your efforts would be equal to that of scientology in India.

Deltacamelately
07 Aug 12,, 17:25
Critical mass, Captain, there simply is not enough Sikhs in the US to have an impact on the American psyche to differentiate. Your efforts would be equal to that of scientology in India.
Sir,

Who do you think spared your good life my transporting SWSNBN to the Vegas?
The Sikhs of Canada seem more merciful than their Yankee cousins. Otherwise....you would have to bear with Pamela in place of your favourite TV show.

Deltacamelately
07 Aug 12,, 17:39
OT;

Captain, the wars of that time were largely political, although they were fought with great religious zeal.

It was the 9th Guru, Tegh Bahadur, who stood up for the Kashmiri Hindus after observing the Mughal army under their General, Iftikhar Khan, forcefully threatening to convert them by force. Guru Tegh Bahadur had however been on cordial terms with the Mughals prior to this (despite the Sikhs previously being on the opposing side during the Mughal war of succession) and had even traveled with the Mughal army to Assam to try and broker an agreement between the Mughals and the Ahom. Nevertheless, Guru Tegh Bahadur's opposition to the Mughal policies in Kashmir (Aurangzeb had ordered Iftikhar Khan to give the Kashmiri pandits six months to convert or face death) resulted in his execution.

Not political at all. It was a matter of sheer survival and military logic.
Next, we all know what resulted after the second highlighted part. Punjab since then has bled more blood than many a canals in ME/CAR.

I could go round and round....but then you know the obvious. Sikhs have to find a larger life in their own turf, their own soil, rather than looking beyond the window. Pack the marital corporation, get back home. Punjab is still beautiful.

Firestorm
07 Aug 12,, 18:00
Regarding, educating the masses regarding Sikhism, would it have mattered in this case? The shooter was a white supremacist. He would consider anybody who is not a caucasian Christian to be an enemy. I don't think it would really make a difference to him whether they were Sikhs or Muslims. His next targets could have very well been Jews or African Americans.

Double Edge
07 Aug 12,, 18:26
Fine dont educate the masses.
29732

Tronic
07 Aug 12,, 18:59
Not political at all. It was a matter of sheer survival and military logic.
Next, we all know what resulted after the second highlighted part. Punjab since then has bled more blood than many a canals in ME/CAR.

Major, I agree, but I was inferring to the causes of those wars. In the wider subcontinent, there is a habit to communalize history in a "us" vs "them" fashion. The truth is, those were indeed wars for survival, but the causes were political, not entirely religious. The Mughals aswell as the Hindu kingdoms of the upper Himalayas feared a growing political and military force in the plains of Punjab which could, and eventually did, check their hold on power, and hence, both declared war on the Sikhs in an attempt to wipe them out before they could politically grow strong. The relations with the Mughals had always been a see-saw depending on who sat on the throne in Delhi. Sikhs had played a major part in pretty much every war of succession in the Mughal Empire. During the time of Guru Arjan Dev, they assisted Khusrau Mirza against Jehangir in his war to take the Mughal throne. Later, Sikhs under Guru Har Rai supported Shah Jahan's favoured son, Dara Shikoh, against Aurangzeb in a war of succession but lost, resulting in Aurangzeb forcefully taking the Mughal throne, publicly executing his elder brother, and putting his father, Shah Jahan, under house arrest. The Sikh wars against Aurangzeb are probably the most well known, but again, they must be seen in a wider perspective. During the same time, the Pashtuns, led by Khushal Khan, were also waging a similar war against the Mughals and totally uprooted the Mughal armies from the entire Pashtun tribal belt, which the Mughals were never able to regain. After Aurangzeb's death, the Sikh armies went to war against Azam Shah and overthrew him to install Muazzam (Bahadur Shah) as the next Mughal emperor in his place.

The massacres of Sikh populations, which is known as the Sikh Galugharas (holocaust), in 1746 and 1762, was carried put by the Afghan Durrani Empire, and thus, the Khalsa armies wars against the Afghans were far bloodier and on a much grander scale than anything against the Mughals.


I could go round and round....but then you know the obvious. Sikhs have to find a larger life in their own turf, their own soil, rather than looking beyond the window. Pack the marital corporation, get back home. Punjab is still beautiful.

I agree Major, but Punjab lacks opportunities.

Tronic
07 Aug 12,, 19:06
29732

Cheers for the bigotry!

What's your point DE?

You're the only one attempting to highlight such a bigoted message here. I have not seen a single news channel refer to Muslims in such a way. Maybe if the Muslims wore turbans, I could understand your point, but that's not the case, is it?

Officer of Engineers
07 Aug 12,, 19:12
Sir,

Who do you think spared your good life my transporting SWSNBN to the Vegas?
The Sikhs of Canada seem more merciful than their Yankee cousins. Otherwise....you would have to bear with Pamela in place of your favourite TV show.Nothing to it, Maj, just pure self preservation of their homeland. There's a reason why SWSNBN has not visited India ... and not for a lack of trying by the Indians.

Double Edge
07 Aug 12,, 19:31
Cheers for the bigotry!

What's your point DE?

You're the only one attempting to highlight such a bigoted message here. I have not seen a single news channel refer to Muslims in such a way. Maybe if the Muslims wore turbans, I could understand your point, but that's not the case, is it?
A joke.

Also a shot at the question i mentioned in my first post.

Tronic
07 Aug 12,, 19:56
A joke.

Also a shot at the question i mentioned in my first post.

Well, it's a poor try and in bad taste, posting a photoshopped pic such as that, manipulated from wedding pics. (Sherwani Stock Photos / Pictures / Photography / Royalty Free Images at Inmagine (http://www.inmagine.com/searchterms/sherwani.html))
Some more to photoshop: Sikh Couple Holding A Blank Placard (http://www.inmagine.com/phins115/phins115001-photo)
Sikh Couple Holding A Blank Placard (http://www.inmagine.com/phins115/phins115001-photo)
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

And your first question has been addressed I believe, but let me try again.

Awareness about the Sikh religion is needed because Sikh men are often wrongly associated with the Taliban or AQ due to the turbans! Muslims do not wear the turbans, since its a cultural dress of the Afghans, therefore, the point is not to say, "we're not Muslims!", but the point is, "We're not the Taliban!". There is a very big and sharp difference here. Sikhism itself is deeply intertwined with peaceful Sufi Islam, and the most important and revered Sikh saints, such as Baba Farid or Sant Kabeer, are Sufi Muslims! Most Punjab's Muslims consider Baba Nanak as a Faqir, or holy man, while a section of them, the Qadianis, even considered Baba Nanak an Islamic prophet! So anyone who is aware of Sikhism will also know of the mystic spirituality shared and intertwined with peaceful Sufi Islam. Therefore, any question of attempting to single out Muslims is unfounded and also results from ignorance. Cheers!

omon
07 Aug 12,, 20:05
Cheers for the bigotry!

What's your point DE?

You're the only one attempting to highlight such a bigoted message here. I have not seen a single news channel refer to Muslims in such a way. Maybe if the Muslims wore turbans, I could understand your point, but that's not the case, is it?

but it is true, isn't it?

Double Edge
07 Aug 12,, 20:27
Well, it's a poor try and in bad taste, posting a photoshopped pic such as that, manipulated from wedding pics. (Sherwani Stock Photos / Pictures / Photography / Royalty Free Images at Inmagine (http://www.inmagine.com/searchterms/sherwani.html))
Some more to photoshop: Sikh Couple Holding A Blank Placard (http://www.inmagine.com/phins115/phins115001-photo)
Sikh Couple Holding A Blank Placard (http://www.inmagine.com/phins115/phins115001-photo)
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Thx for the info.


And your first question has been addressed I believe, but let me try again.
Did a Sikh shoot up others or vice-versa ? What was the intent of that question.

To me it sounded like do Sikhs resort to violence and justify it with their religion. The same nonsense gets said about muslims.

None of this may have been necessarily implied but that's how i interpreted it.


Awareness about the Sikh religion is needed because Sikh men are often wrongly associated with the Taliban or AQ due to the turbans! Muslims do not wear the turbans, since its a cultural dress of the Afghans, therefore, the point is not to say, "we're not Muslims!", but the point is, "We're not the Taliban!". There is a very big and sharp difference here.

I would say subtle. If it was sharp ie stood out there would be low chances of confusing the two.


Sikhism itself is deeply intertwined with peaceful Sufi Islam, and the most important and revered Sikh saints, such as Baba Farid or Sant Kabeer, are Sufi Muslims! Most Punjab's Muslims consider Baba Nanak as a Faqir, or holy man, while a section of them, the Qadianis, even considered Baba Nanak an Islamic prophet! So anyone who is aware of Sikhism will also know of the mystic spirituality shared and intertwined with peaceful Sufi Islam. Therefore, any question of attempting to single out Muslims is unfounded and also results from ignorance. Cheers!
Good, to me that qualifies as a valid counter to the image text.

Now i understand why you found it bigoted.

Blademaster
07 Aug 12,, 23:46
Fine dont educate the masses.

:rolleyes: Sure thing! Don't kill innocents! How hard is that? :rolleyes:

Blademaster
07 Aug 12,, 23:49
And your first question has been addressed I believe, but let me try again.

Awareness about the Sikh religion is needed because Sikh men are often wrongly associated with the Taliban or AQ due to the turbans! Muslims do not wear the turbans, since its a cultural dress of the Afghans, therefore, the point is not to say, "we're not Muslims!", but the point is, "We're not the Taliban!". There is a very big and sharp difference here. Sikhism itself is deeply intertwined with peaceful Sufi Islam, and the most important and revered Sikh saints, such as Baba Farid or Sant Kabeer, are Sufi Muslims! Most Punjab's Muslims consider Baba Nanak as a Faqir, or holy man, while a section of them, the Qadianis, even considered Baba Nanak an Islamic prophet! So anyone who is aware of Sikhism will also know of the mystic spirituality shared and intertwined with peaceful Sufi Islam. Therefore, any question of attempting to single out Muslims is unfounded and also results from ignorance. Cheers!

But why do we have to say "We are not the Taliban!" Vigilantism should not be tolerated ever. If you suspect somebody of terrorism, you alert the authorities, not take the law into your hands unless you are in imminent danger or other people are in imminent and clear present danger.

JAD_333
08 Aug 12,, 00:08
But why do we have to say "We are not the Taliban!" Vigilantism should not be tolerated ever. If you suspect somebody of terrorism, you alert the authorities, not take the law into your hands unless you are in imminent danger or other people are in imminent and clear present danger.

I am going to hazard a rough guess that this white supremacist was not after Muslims, but non-Aryians, and that he had a run in with a Sikh clerk in a shop or a teller in a bank or a businessman or possibly a government worker, perhaps more than once, and sat around brooding about "them brown skinned rag heads who are taking over our country", and being being thoroughly indoctrinated into a hate culture and not entirely 100% sane, he decided to strike. It's even possible he was egged on by his white supremacist buddies, who didn't think he had the guts to do it.

While the state is saved the expense of a costly trial by his death, I wish he had been taken alive so we could get some answers about his sanity and reasoning, and whether he had co-conspirators.

Double Edge
08 Aug 12,, 00:25
But why do we have to say "We are not the Taliban!"
That is the other argument being made.

Sikhs should say what they ARE instead of what they are NOT.

But all this hinges on the assumption that this was a misdirected attack. Gut feel i don't believe it was.


I am going to hazard a rough guess that this white supremacist was not after Muslims, but non-Aryians, and that he had a run in with a Sikh clerk in a shop or a teller in a bank or a businessman or possibly a government worker, perhaps more than once, and sat around brooding about "them brown skinned rag heads who are taking over our country", and being being thoroughly indoctrinated into a hate culture and not entirely 100% sane, he decided to strike. It's even possible he was egged on by his white supremacist buddies, who didn't think he had the guts to do it.
Plausible and pretty much where i am at this point. Its pushing the odds though because there are any other people from other backgrounds that could have entered in here as well.

Whether this was just one of those spur of the moment things or more.

This guy is capable of settling scores on an individual basis. The question i have is what makes him go from targeting individuals to a group. And to the point where he is willing to die for it.


While the state is saved the expense of a costly trial by his death, I wish he had been taken alive so we could get some answers about his sanity and reasoning, and whether he had co-conspirators.
Agree, knowing the answers helps the community to move on.

That to me is the most important reason to figure out what happened.

Tronic
08 Aug 12,, 03:55
But why do we have to say "We are not the Taliban!" Vigilantism should not be tolerated ever. If you suspect somebody of terrorism, you alert the authorities, not take the law into your hands unless you are in imminent danger or other people are in imminent and clear present danger.

BM, you are absolutely correct, and spreading more awareness about who they are is nothing but a defence mechanism to protect themselves.

I missed DE's earlier post, but it shows you why the reaction has been what it is.



in collecting data about post-sept. 11 hate crimes, the justice department does not draw a distinction between sikhs and muslims, an entirely separate religion. A report from october says, “in the first six years after 9/11, the department investigated more than 800 incidents involving violence, threats, vandalism and arson against persons perceived to be muslim or sikh, or of arab, middle eastern or south asian origin.”

A very pertinent point !

Just see (http://www.deccanherald.com/content/269693/sikhs-have-faced-over-700.html) the way my local daily put it :rolleyes:

The US government has investigated over 800 hate crimes on 'persons perceived to be muslim or sikh, or of arab, middle eastern or south asian origin' since 9/11, but what that report doesn't tell you is that 700 out of those 800 attacks were actually against Sikhs and were reported by the Sikh Coalition!


The first person murdered in retaliation for the 9/11 attacks was a Sikh -- a gas station owner in Mesa, Arizona, named Balbir Singh Sodhi who was shot five times by aircraft mechanic Frank Roque.

In the intervening years, the Sikh Coalition, a New York-based advocacy group, reported more than 700 attacks or bias-related incidents.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/06/us/sikhs-bias-crimes/index.html


There is a very clear and disproportionate number of attacks against turbaned Sikhs, who have quite often become targets due to the wrong perception of them being associated with the Taliban, AQ, or radical Islamists. There have been countless examples of this. A few quite obvious ones;


December 2001: Two men beat store owner Surinder Singh 20 times with metal poles in Los Angeles while they utter, "We'll kill bin Laden today."

July 2004: Rajinder Singh Khalsa is beaten unconscious by six men in New York City, after they taunt him and his friend about their turban. The beating leaves Khalsa with multiple fractures.

August 2006: Iqbal Singh is stabbed in the neck with a steak knife in San Jose, California, while he is standing in the carport of his house. The attacker later tells police he wanted to "kill a Taliban."

November 2010: Two passengers beat Harbhajan Singh, a Sikh cabdriver, in Sacramento, California, with one of them calling him "Osama bin Laden."

February 2012: A Sikh temple under construction in Sterling Heights, Michigan, is defaced, with graffiti on the wall depicting a gun and a Christian cross. Someone also scrawls "Mohmed," perhaps in reference to the Muslim prophet Mohammed.
Sikhs Endure Long History Of Bias Crimes - Indiana News Story - WRTV Indianapolis (http://www.theindychannel.com/news/31333918/detail.html)


Therefore, attempting to talk and spread awareness about the Sikh religion is a defensive mechanism by the Sikh community to try and shed away this ignorance.

zraver
08 Aug 12,, 04:12
Regarding, educating the masses regarding Sikhism, would it have mattered in this case? The shooter was a white supremacist. He would consider anybody who is not a caucasian Christian to be an enemy. I don't think it would really make a difference to him whether they were Sikhs or Muslims. His next targets could have very well been Jews or African Americans.

Or whites, or children.... These type of people don't really have politics no matter what they claim. They are amoral sociopathic animals. There is a reason they target areas where the victims can't shoot back.

lemontree
08 Aug 12,, 05:28
Critical mass, Captain, there simply is not enough Sikhs in the US to have an impact on the American psyche to differentiate. Your efforts would be equal to that of scientology in India.
Sir,

Canada is considered the 3rd Punjab in India (after the Indian & Pakistani Punjabi provinces).
USA has just a shade lesser Sikhs than Canada. So yes the critical masss exists.

lemontree
08 Aug 12,, 05:31
:rolleyes: Sure thing! Don't kill innocents! How hard is that? :rolleyes:
????...you are not making sense.

Blademaster
08 Aug 12,, 05:36
????...you are not making sense.

You alluded to the fact that we need to educate the masses regarding the difference between a Sikh and a Muslim. I am saying that is not necessary. The only thing necessary is to educate them that killing innocents regardless of their beliefs, creed, or religion is not acceptable and neither is vigilantism in any kind of form except acting in times of imminent clear and present danger.

Officer of Engineers
08 Aug 12,, 06:33
Jason is the only one on point. No amount of education was going to stop this man. If it wasn't a Sikh temple, it would have been a mosque, synagogue, or an inner city school. What you all are suggesting is hit the other guy, not me. This animal needed to be put down. Not understood.

Tronic
08 Aug 12,, 06:56
Jason is the only one on point. No amount of education was going to stop this man. If it wasn't a Sikh temple, it would have been a mosque, synagogue, or an inner city school. What you all are suggesting is hit the other guy, not me. This animal needed to be put down. Not understood.

OoE, we're all treading along the same point and agreeing with that.

I'm just alluding to the fact that Sikhs are often targeted, being perceived as, not just any Muslims but "radical Muslims" simply due to the turban. Regarding this particular case, it is true that this rabid animal was a white supremacist and possibly would have lashed out indiscriminately. However, the reason the first reaction was to spread awareness is because hate attacks against turbaned Sikhs has been a common phenomena post-9/11. No one is suggesting to hit the other guy; the 'other guy' does not wear a turban nor resemble anything like the Afghan men shown on tv!

Double Edge
08 Aug 12,, 11:28
I missed DE's earlier post, but it shows you why the reaction has been what it is.


The US government has investigated over 800 hate crimes on 'persons perceived to be muslim or sikh, or of arab, middle eastern or south asian origin' since 9/11, but what that report doesn't tell you is that 700 out of those 800 attacks were actually against Sikhs and were reported by the Sikh Coalition!
What was the nature of those 700 attacks ? Can't find anything on their site. The Sikh Coalition (http://www.sikhcoalition.org/)

I dispute (http://www.justice.gov/crt/legalinfo/discrimupdate.php) that 700 out of the 800 investigated attacks were against Sikhs.

However 700 attacks cummulatively reported since 9-11 is plausible as there are hundreds (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/hate-crime/2010/tables/table-1-incidents-offenses-victims-and-known-offenders-by-bias-motivation-2010.xls) in numerous categories every year in the hate crimes stats.

See the Hate crime statistics section on the FBI's site which annually details crimes in the US.
Uniform Crime Reports Homepage | FBI (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr#hate)


Go to page 8 of this DOJ report (http://www.justice.gov/crt/publications/post911/post911summit_report_2012-04.pdf) from Apr 2012.

In the first six years after 9/11, the Department investigated more than 800 incidents involving violence, threats, vandalism, and arson against persons perceived to be Muslim or Sikh, or of Arab, Middle Eastern, or South Asian origin.
Presumably this report is what your NYT article used as its source.

Pg 17

Although the FBI tracks hate crimes motivated by the victim’s real or perceived religion, it currently does not track hate crimes committed specifically against Sikhs. Some of the advocates recommended that the FBI create a special tracking code for Sikhs to support the Division’s outreach and criminal enforcement efforts.

Tronic
08 Aug 12,, 18:55
What was the nature of those 700 attacks ? Can't find anything on their site. The Sikh Coalition (http://www.sikhcoalition.org/)

I dispute (http://www.justice.gov/crt/legalinfo/discrimupdate.php) that 700 out of the 800 investigated attacks were against Sikhs.

However 700 attacks cummulatively reported since 9-11 is plausible as there are hundreds (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/hate-crime/2010/tables/table-1-incidents-offenses-victims-and-known-offenders-by-bias-motivation-2010.xls) in numerous categories every year in the hate crimes stats.

See the Hate crime statistics section on the FBI's site which annually details crimes in the US.
Uniform Crime Reports Homepage | FBI (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr#hate)


Go to page 8 of this DOJ report (http://www.justice.gov/crt/publications/post911/post911summit_report_2012-04.pdf) from Apr 2012.

Presumably this report is what your NYT article used as its source.

Pg 17

DE, we already know that Sikhs in the FBI report are lumped in together with the Arabs, Middle Easterners and other Muslims, that's nothing new. The feeling among Sikhs is that they are more susceptible to attacks than other groups due to their physical appearance, and thus, adequate resources may not be allocated where they are needed.

The 700 number is a number being given by the Sikh Coalition itself. Amandeep Singh, the co-founder of the Sikh Coalition has been on CNN providing that number, and it was likely the coalition which provided it to the NYT. Sikh Coalition has a dedicated legal aid department called Khalsa Aid which represents victims of these hate crimes in a court of law.

Earlier this year this issue had been brought to the attention of the Congress: http://crowley.house.gov/sites/crowley.house.gov/files/Letter%20to%20DOJ%20on%20Hate%20Crimes%20Against%2 0Sikh-Americans%2004-19-2012_0.pdf

At the end of the day, America is a democratic country and the American Sikhs there have political space and channels to express their concerns, and something which they have been doing. Agencies of the US government have previously worked with Sikhs on other issues aswell, such as airport screening.

Firestorm
08 Aug 12,, 22:59
Time article about attacks against Sikhs

Timeline: A History of Violence against Sikhs in the Wake of 9/11 | NewsFeed | TIME.com (http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/08/06/timeline-a-history-of-violence-against-sikhs-in-the-wake-of-911/)



Sunday’s shooting incident at a Sikh gurdwara in a Milwaukee suburb is only the latest example of a history of violence against devotees of the centuries-old South Asian religion since the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. In the majority of these cases, Sikhs say, they were mistaken for Muslims, because of their religious dress, which includes turbans, beards and long robes. The Sikh community, which totals around 314,000 in the U.S., is entirely separate from the Muslim faith. But in the wake of 9/11, violence against Sikhs spiked.

Prabhjot Singh, co-founder and trustee of the New York-based Sikh Coalition, started the group on the evening of 9/11 “to respond to the tragic events of that day,” he tells TIME. Sikh-Americans were attacked twice that day, he says: once by the terrorists, and once by “fellow Americans” who mistook Sikhs for Muslims. His organization, which fields reports of discrimination against Sikhs across the nation, serves as an advocate for all devotees of the religion and attempts to foster goodwill between Sikhs and other Americans. “We’re hoping this tragic incident can be used as an opportunity to engage in maybe a broader dialogue of xenophobia in America,” he says. The Sikh Coalition has received more than 1,000 complaints of violence or discrimination against Sikhs since September 11, 2001. Here are some of the worst attacks:

Sept. 15, 2001: The Sikh owner of a Chevron gas station in a Phoenix suburb was murdered by a gunman just days after 9/11, in one of the first major cases of violence against a Sikh-American in the wake of the attacks. Balbir Singh Sodhi, 49, was fatally shot by 42-year-old Frank Roque, a Mesa, Ariz. resident, who said he was lashing out at “Arabs” after watching repeated footage of the World Trade Center attacks on television. He also attempted to shoot a Lebanese-American clerk at a nearby Mobil station and fired at a home owned by Afghan-Americans. As he was being arrested on charges of first-degree murder, Roque reportedly shouted, “I stand for America all the way.” He was convicted of Sodhi’s murder and was sentenced to death, which was later reduced to life in prison. Sodhi’s name was added to Arizona’s 9/11 memorial in the wake of the tragedy.


Nov 18, 2001: A Sikh house of worship, the Gobind Sadan, was severely damaged in an arson attack just months after 9/11. Located in Palermo, N.Y., 30 miles north of Syracuse, the temple was set ablaze by three local teenagers who reportedly mistook the name as “Go bin Laden.” :bang: Located in an old farmhouse, most of the structure was destroyed after the teens tossed beer bottles at the windows and then set it on fire; the only surviving rooms were the ones containing the Sikhs’ holy scriptures. The temple was later demolished to make way for a new one, which reopened in 2008. The three teenagers were charged with arson in the blaze, which caused $120,000 worth of damage.

Dec 10, 2001: Surinder Singh Sidhu had been wearing a star-spangled turban in the wake of the terrorist attacks to show his patriotism, but it couldn’t stop the Los Angeles liquor store owner from being the victim of a vicious anti-religious attack. As the 47-year-old closed his shop, two men entered with 4-foot metal poles and beat him more than 20 times, reportedly saying “We’ll kill bin Laden today.” Sidhu was treated for head injuries but survived.

March 14, 2004: Vandals spray-painted anti-Sikh graffiti on a Fresno, Calif. temple just before worshippers gathered for Sunday services. The racist phrases ‘Rags Go Home’ and ‘It’s Not Your Country’ were scrawled on the outside walls of the Gurdwara Sahib in the northern Calif. city. No one was ever arrested in connection with the graffiti.

July 11, 2004: Two Sikh cousins were attacked by a group of six people as they walked into an Indian restaurant in the New York City borough of Queens. Rajinder Singh Khalsa and his cousin Gurcharan Singh, the restaurant’s owner, were stopped by the group of allegedly drunk men outside the restaurant. “Give me back my curtain,” one allegedly said to Singh before beating them. The 54-year-old Khalsa lay unconscious after the attack, taken to the hospital with a broken nose and bruised eye socket.


July 30, 2006: A Sikh grandfather was stabbed in the neck with a steak knife by a man who wanted “to kill a Taliban.” Iqbal Singh was standing in his driveway in Santa Clara, Calif., preparing to depart for religious services, when Everett Thompson, 20, ran up to him and stabbed him with the knife. Thompson was arrested and charged with attempted murder and a hate crime.

November 28, 2010: A Sacramento, Calif. cab driver was beaten by two Hispanic men after dropping off them and their wives. Harbhajan Singh, 56, was left bleeding in his cab after the attack, during which one of the men asked if he was Osama bin Laden. Singh, a Sikh, was beaten more than 10 times and suffered facial fractures. He stumbled to a nearby housing complex to ask for help. After a five-day manhunt, the two men turned themselves in to police. One received 13 years in jail for the attack.

March 4, 2011: Two elderly Sikhs were shot as they took an afternoon stroll in Elk Grove, Calif., a suburb of Sacramento. Surinder Singh, 65, was pronounced dead at the scene, while his friend Gurmej Atwal, 78, was rushed to the hospital in critical condition and died six weeks later. Both men were gunned down as they ambled slowly through a quiet neighborhood, seeming victims of a drive-by shooting. The gunmen were never found.

Tronic
09 Aug 12,, 01:06
Timeline: A History of Violence against Sikhs in the Wake of 9/11 | NewsFeed | TIME.com (http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/08/06/timeline-a-history-of-violence-against-sikhs-in-the-wake-of-911/)


"In the majority of these cases, Sikhs say, they were mistaken for Muslims, because of their religious dress, which includes turbans, beards and long robes...."

"Sikh-Americans were attacked twice that day, he says: once by the terrorists, and once by “fellow Americans” who mistook Sikhs for Muslims."[





I think the article is just plain wrong here. It's not at all about being mistaken for being Muslim. I think NYT put it a lot better;


Mourning Victims, Sikhs Lament Being Mistaken for Radicals or Militants (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/07/us/sikhs-mourn-victims-and-lament-post-9-11-targeting.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)

...the killings revived bitter memories of the period just after the Sept. 11 attacks when their distinctive turbans and beards seemed to trigger harassment and violence by people who wrongly assumed that they were militant Muslims.

.....

“I have been called Osama bin Laden walking down the street, because in the popular imagination a turban is associated with bin Laden and Al Qaeda,” said Prabhjot Singh, who works in the high-tech industry near San Francisco. “But 99 percent of the people who wear turbans in the United States are Sikhs, so they face a disproportionate number of acts of discrimination.”
.....

Other recent acts of violence against Sikhs — the defacing in February of a temple in Michigan, the beating of a cabdriver in California in late 2010 — involved mistaken references to Al Qaeda or militant Islam.


Its very important to draw this distinction here. Muslims don't wear turbans in the West, therefore, its not accurate to say that they get attacked mistaken for being Muslims, rather, they get attacked mistaken for being radical Islamists, the likes of which you see on CNN.

Double Edge
09 Aug 12,, 02:09
The feeling among Sikhs is that they are more susceptible to attacks than other groups due to their physical appearance, and thus, adequate resources may not be allocated where they are needed.
This is a common perception but how do we test it.

I think post 9-11 attacks went up compared to pre-9-11. If you looked vaguely middle eastern and south asians can pass for that then they become fair game. So you have a number of groups here that saw more attacks. Which one got more is hard to say without numbers but Sikhs are not alone here.

What resources can be brought in ? Armed guards outside congregation halls.

You're up against a mindset that only time can change. It gets less as time goes on.

It reminds me of an episode on NYPD blue where this Asian was complaining about an attack and the sergeant (Dennis Franz) tells him, there was a time when blacks, Italians, Irish, Germans, Japanese faced the same. It will pass.

Oak Creek does not fall into this category, its in one of its own. But for a lot of those other attacks i think the statement holds.


The 700 number is a number being given by the Sikh Coalition itself. Amandeep Singh, the co-founder of the Sikh Coalition has been on CNN providing that number, and it was likely the coalition which provided it to the NYT. Sikh Coalition has a dedicated legal aid department called Khalsa Aid which represents victims of these hate crimes in a court of law.
I see this number repeated in a number of reports since. Without knowing the breakdown and kind of attacks its remains just a number. When it gets mentioned in the same space as Oak Creek it takes on a more urgent & ominous tone.


At the end of the day, America is a democratic country and the American Sikhs there have political space and channels to express their concerns, and something which they have been doing. Agencies of the US government have previously worked with Sikhs on other issues aswell, such as airport screening.
What changes do they expect ?

Should people start looking into their own protection. Start carrying. The option exists. Won't matter in that case how one looks. Taliban or not.

Vinod2070
09 Aug 12,, 03:55
I think the article is just plain wrong here. It's not at all about being mistaken for being Muslim. I think NYT put it a lot better;

Its very important to draw this distinction here. Muslims don't wear turbans in the West, therefore, its not accurate to say that they get attacked mistaken for being Muslims, rather, they get attacked mistaken for being radical Islamists, the likes of which you see on CNN.

The ones who attacked the Sikhs don't make the distinction. If they don't know a Sikh from a Muslim, they can hardly be bothered with the difference between a Muslim and a "radical Muslim" (as if the radicals wear a different dress).

The pictures that they see on TV just shows the Arab/Afghan way of dressing, which is also adopted by the terrorists (as most of them are from that background).

There is nothing specially "radical Muslim" about the turban. It is just a tradition in certain parts of the Islamic world as it is for Sikhs (albeit with more religious significance for the Sikhs).

Tronic
09 Aug 12,, 05:09
This is a common perception but how do we test it.

Easy. Track those hate crimes as suggested here: http://crowley.house.gov/sites/crowley.house.gov/files/Letter%20to%20DOJ%20on%20Hate%20Crimes%20Against%2 0Sikh-Americans%2004-19-2012_0.pdf



I think post 9-11 attacks went up compared to pre-9-11. If you looked vaguely middle eastern and south asians can pass for that then they become fair game. So you have a number of groups here that saw more attacks. Which one got more is hard to say without numbers but Sikhs are not alone here.

I disagree. I'm not a turbaned Sikh myself, and so, I'm well aware that I am more easily able to escape stereotypes than Sikhs who wear turbans and have beards. Sikhs with turbans are an easier pick for stereotypes and once you're already being negatively singled out, you become more susceptible to face hate attacks, be they physical or verbal. Many people stereotype, either consciously or subconsciously, when they are confronted with an image they are averse to. Its a fact that Sikhism is a very little known religion in the West, and that Sikh men may at first glance resemble the images of Taliban or Bin Laden shown on tv to most people who are unaware of this religion. There is nothing illogical or unnatural about these stereotypes considering the lack of knowledge about Sikhism in the West. The crime only begins when people go a step further and carry out hate acts against others due to their ignorance. Again, I don't find it to be a realistic proposition to claim to have the same chances of being stereotyped in the same manner as a man with a turban and a beard!



What resources can be brought in ? Armed guards outside congregation halls.

Totally unnecessary. No one is asking to bring in new resources. The law enforcement departments are already well equipped to deal with the problem through specialized hate crime departments in the police, victim assistance programs, community outreach centres, etc. All these already exist! It's about efficiently allocating those resources by first having an efficient hate crime database which will give a more clearer picture how to allocate those resources more efficiently.


You're up against a mindset that only time can change. It gets less as time goes on.

It reminds me of an episode on NYPD blue where this Asian was complaining about an attack and the sergeant (Dennis Franz) tells him, there was a time when blacks, Italians, Irish, Germans, Japanese faced the same. It will pass.

Oak Creek does not fall into this category, its in one of its own. But for a lot of those other attacks i think the statement holds.

It's a mindset which changes due to awareness and education. The onus here is on the Sikh community to spread that awareness.


I see this number repeated in a number of reports since. Without knowing the breakdown and kind of attacks its remains just a number. When it gets mentioned in the same space as Oak Creek it takes on a more urgent & ominous tone.

Well, there's your reason to agree with: 94 Members of Congress Demand that FBI Track Anti-Sikh Hate Crimes (http://www.sikhcoalition.org/component/content/article/3-advocacy/620-94-members-of-congress-demand-that-fbi-track-anti-sikh-hate-crimes)


What changes do they expect ?

I've already answered this above in this post, but again, it helps the law enforcement agencies to get a more detailed picture of the problem.


Should people start looking into their own protection. Start carrying. The option exists. Won't matter in that case how one looks. Taliban or not.

No, its simple, and goes back to the basis of this discussion. The need for the Sikh community to educate and spread more awareness about our little known religion.

Tronic
09 Aug 12,, 05:13
The ones who attacked the Sikhs don't make the distinction. If they don't know a Sikh from a Muslim, they can hardly be bothered with the difference between a Muslim and a "radical Muslim" (as if the radicals wear a different dress).

There's your answer. To the ill-learned, naive, or the ignorant, the "radical Muslims" do wear a different dress. It's a turban. How many Muslims in the West wear the turban?


The pictures that they see on TV just shows the Arab/Afghan way of dressing, which is also adopted by the terrorists (as most of them are from that background).

There is nothing specially "radical Muslim" about the turban. It is just a tradition in certain parts of the Islamic world as it is for Sikhs (albeit with more religious significance for the Sikhs).

The only people most Westerners see wearing the turban are the "radical Muslims" on tv. So when they see a turbaned Sikh, who do they associate that person with? Your average Muslim, or the radicals they see on tv?

There is a clear distinction made here.

Double Edge
09 Aug 12,, 10:53
Easy. Track those hate crimes as suggested here: http://crowley.house.gov/sites/crowley.house.gov/files/Letter%20to%20DOJ%20on%20Hate%20Crimes%20Against%2 0Sikh-Americans%2004-19-2012_0.pdf
Take a look at the HCS page here (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/hate-crime/2010/tables/table-1-incidents-offenses-victims-and-known-offenders-by-bias-motivation-2010.xls) for 2010

Sikhs are not going to be targeted on the basis of their religion, it works based on the way they look.

Anti-black under incidents (2,201) alone are more than all of religion (1,322) PLUS ethnicity/national origin (847) combined. (=2,169)

The same applies under the victims column.

Sikhs would fall under ethnicity/national orgin along with a bunch of other communities.

Crimes on Sikhs may not be specifically tracked but they make their way into those stats regardless.

Now there's 700k Sikhs to 40 million plus blacks. But there's a larger number of other communities covered in the religious section plus hispanics & multiple other groups under ethnicity. Some further normalisation has to be done here.

I suspect if the numbers were there that Sikhs would not be an exception. Maybe slightly more but not significantly. Tolerance or its lack thereof proportionately affects everybody that is different. Turban or not.


I disagree. I'm not a turbaned Sikh myself, and so, I'm well aware that I am more easily able to escape stereotypes than Sikhs who wear turbans and have beards. Sikhs with turbans are an easier pick for stereotypes and once you're already being negatively singled out, you become more susceptible to face hate attacks, be they physical or verbal. Many people stereotype, either consciously or subconsciously, when they are confronted with an image they are averse to. Its a fact that Sikhism is a very little known religion in the West, and that Sikh men may at first glance resemble the images of Taliban or Bin Laden shown on tv to most people who are unaware of this religion. There is nothing illogical or unnatural about these stereotypes considering the lack of knowledge about Sikhism in the West. The crime only begins when people go a step further and carry out hate acts against others due to their ignorance. Again, I don't find it to be a realistic proposition to claim to have the same chances of being stereotyped in the same manner as a man with a turban and a beard!
This is anecdotal.

Without numbers its hard to challenge or defend that position. That to me is a weakness in the perception because it cannot be tested. To date its just asserted.

Unless it can be backed up with evidence i would be reserved on taking a position either way.



Totally unnecessary. No one is asking to bring in new resources. The law enforcement departments are already well equipped to deal with the problem through specialized hate crime departments in the police, victim assistance programs, community outreach centres, etc. All these already exist! It's about efficiently allocating those resources by first having an efficient hate crime database which will give a more clearer picture how to allocate those resources more efficiently.

It's a mindset which changes due to awareness and education. The onus here is on the Sikh community to spread that awareness.

I've already answered this above in this post, but again, it helps the law enforcement agencies to get a more detailed picture of the problem.


No, its simple, and goes back to the basis of this discussion. The need for the Sikh community to educate and spread more awareness about our little known religion.
ok


Well, there's your reason to agree with: 94 Members of Congress Demand that FBI Track Anti-Sikh Hate Crimes (http://www.sikhcoalition.org/component/content/article/3-advocacy/620-94-members-of-congress-demand-that-fbi-track-anti-sikh-hate-crimes)
I count 73 faces in there :)

But once the numbers are there you have your basis.

Vinod2070
09 Aug 12,, 13:29
There's your answer. To the ill-learned, naive, or the ignorant, the "radical Muslims" do wear a different dress. It's a turban. How many Muslims in the West wear the turban?

That is not really the issue!

Not all non turban wearing Muslims in the West are non-radicals and not all turban wearing Muslims are radicals.


The only people most Westerners see wearing the turban are the "radical Muslims" on tv. So when they see a turbaned Sikh, who do they associate that person with? Your average Muslim, or the radicals they see on tv?

There is a clear distinction made here.

Not so sure about this. The TV shows include common Arabs and Afghans wearing the same dress. May be the association is strong in the ignorant mind but it is with Muslims in general and not in particular with "radical Muslims". They probably don't know or don't care for the difference.

Tronic
09 Aug 12,, 19:21
Take a look at the HCS page here (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/hate-crime/2010/tables/table-1-incidents-offenses-victims-and-known-offenders-by-bias-motivation-2010.xls) for 2010

Sikhs are not going to be targeted on the basis of their religion, it works based on the way they look.

All major hate killings and crimes against Sikhs since 9/11 has illustrated the motive to be due to their religious beliefs, which are stereotyped to be based on their look! What distinction are you trying to draw here?



Anti-black under incidents (2,201) alone are more than all of religion (1,322) PLUS ethnicity/national origin (847) combined. (=2,169)

The same applies under the victims column.

There are 42 million Blacks in the US, so its pointless to throw out those numbers without talking proportions.



Sikhs would fall under ethnicity/national orgin along with a bunch of other communities.

How do you know that? Speculating?


Crimes on Sikhs may not be specifically tracked but they make their way into those stats regardless.

No one has denied that. We're asking the FBI to track those crimes separately to give a clearer picture so you won't have to speculate.


Now there's 700k Sikhs to 40 million plus blacks. But there's a larger number of other communities covered in the religious section plus hispanics & multiple other groups under ethnicity. Some further normalisation has to be done here.

I suspect if the numbers were there that Sikhs would not be an exception. Maybe slightly more but not significantly. Tolerance or its lack thereof proportionately affects everybody that is different. Turban or not.

You are speculating, and secondly, its absurd to claim that it affects everyone proportionately. All Sikhs are not turban wearing Sikhs, so we can judge better of what makes us stereotyped disproportionally and what does not. It is the turban! Next time you're in the US, throw on a turban on your head and go visit the local mall, and than come tell me it affects everyone proportionally!

Here's one perspective of life with a turban vs a life without: The Sikh turban: at once personal and extremely public – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs (http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/08/the-sikh-turban-at-once-personal-and-extremely-public/)



This is anecdotal.

Without numbers its hard to challenge or defend that position. That to me is a weakness in the perception because it cannot be tested. To date its just asserted.

Unless it can be backed up with evidence i would be reserved on taking a position either way.

That's the whole point of asking the FBI to track those crimes separately, so those perceptions can very well be tested. You have already taken your position despite admitting to not having those numbers when you staked the claim of everyone being proportionally affected by stereotyped hatred. I haven't been any more anecdotal than you, probably less, considering the fact I have the insight into both turbaned Sikhs and non-turbaned.



I count 73 faces in there :)

Better to count signatures than faces :biggrin::
http://crowley.house.gov/sites/crowley.house.gov/files/Letter%20to%20DOJ%20on%20Hate%20Crimes%20Against%2 0Sikh-Americans%2004-19-2012_0.pdf

Tronic
09 Aug 12,, 19:26
That is not really the issue!

Not all non turban wearing Muslims in the West are non-radicals and not all turban wearing Muslims are radicals.

Not so sure about this. The TV shows include common Arabs and Afghans wearing the same dress. May be the association is strong in the ignorant mind but it is with Muslims in general and not in particular with "radical Muslims". They probably don't know or don't care for the difference.

What tv shows do you watch? :biggrin:

I don't think the Arabs wear turbans anyways, its mostly only worn casually by Afghan, Baloch, Gujjar or Punjabi people.

Double Edge
09 Aug 12,, 21:06
I am going to hazard a rough guess that this white supremacist was not after Muslims, but non-Aryians, and that he had a run in with a Sikh clerk in a shop or a teller in a bank or a businessman or possibly a government worker, perhaps more than once, and sat around brooding about "them brown skinned rag heads who are taking over our country", and being being thoroughly indoctrinated into a hate culture and not entirely 100% sane, he decided to strike. It's even possible he was egged on by his white supremacist buddies, who didn't think he had the guts to do it.
There's an implication here that I missed earlier.

If it transpired the way you say, then being a Sikh made no difference.

If the experiences had been with another community they could have been attacked as well.

Whether it would also lead to a group attack is unclear.

Tronic
09 Aug 12,, 22:50
There's an implication here that I missed earlier.

If it transpired the way you say, then being a Sikh made no difference.

If the experiences had been with another community they could have been attacked as well.

Whether it would also lead to a group attack is unclear.


You're on a different page now. There is little doubt that this attack was carried out by a white supremacist who could've lashed out at other Americans aswell. I've already made this point in post #70.


I'm just alluding to the fact that Sikhs are often targeted, being perceived as, not just any Muslims but "radical Muslims" simply due to the turban. Regarding this particular case, it is true that this rabid animal was a white supremacist and possibly would have lashed out indiscriminately. However, the reason the first reaction was to spread awareness is because hate attacks against turbaned Sikhs has been a common phenomena post-9/11. No one is suggesting to hit the other guy; the 'other guy' does not wear a turban nor resemble anything like the Afghan men shown on tv!


The discussion is in regards to wider hate crimes against the Sikh community which have taken place post 9/11, which has been the reason why the reaction in this case was what it was.

We feel there is a disproportionate problem facing the Sikh community, and that is why we feel the need to educate and spread awareness.

Doktor
09 Aug 12,, 23:10
We don't have Sikhs nor Talibans here, but I thought that in 90% of the cases people would make the difference. I think I can. Not that I need it at the moment :rolleyes:

Can see the reason why the Sikhs wants to educate people around - not to get killed by mistake and that's fine, just wonder if things go souther with Pakistan what campaign would Indians take.

Concur with Firestorm regarding this lunatic, if it wasn't Sikhs, maybe it would have been Jews or Blacks or whoever is on the list of usual suspects of the white supremacists.

Double Edge
10 Aug 12,, 00:13
All major hate killings and crimes against Sikhs since 9/11 has illustrated the motive to be due to their religious beliefs, which are stereotyped to be based on their look! What distinction are you trying to draw here?
Arson attack on a gurdwara - attack on religion
Beatings - attack on ethnicity

I figured ethnicity as those doing the attacking do not have a clue about the religion to begin with.

Are you saying it should be viewed primarily as attack on religion. As you tie appearance to religion.


How do you know that? Speculating?
Now that you pointed it out, i don't. Was looking at the columns and trying to figure out which fit.


You are speculating, and secondly, its absurd to claim that it affects everyone proportionately. All Sikhs are not turban wearing Sikhs, so we can judge better of what makes us stereotyped disproportionally and what does not. It is the turban!
Yes, because to me it isn't a stretch to say if you ain't the right colour is no different to wearing a turban for what we're talking about here. They're both just as visible.

How do you control for it ? Its very unpredictable. I've lived in dodgy areas in the UK and never had any problems and gotten abused on shorter stays in decent areas. What does that signify. I'd have thought it would be the other way around.

Send a guy out with a turban and one without on the same route and record who gets more abuse. So many variables here. The guy's personality and how street smart he is being major ones. There are some situations you want to avoid not wearing a turban let alone wearing one. How confident is the person. Then there is the randomness that creeps in, being in the right place at the wrong time and so on. If all else fails how fast can either run from becoming a statistic.

I had a couple of sikh friends in the UK who cut their hair. From them it was more about blending in than being discriminated. This was much before 9-11. They were in their teens when they did it, I get the impression that it matters more at that age than when you're older.

Anyway, i'm offering an alternative opinion. Thinking differently. I figure i've got a chance until the numbers come out. My philosophy with communal violence is harm reduction especially with the aggrieved party. That they not be made to feel more victimised than already.

If i was a sikh i'd cling on to anything that said i had just as good a chance as anybody else being what i was. As good a chance at luck or not. Not one which said i was at a disadvantage compared to others. I would resist seeing my religion as a disadvantage. When incidents happen that belief gets threatened and it needs to be reinforced and defended. That is crucial to moving on and being able to weather adverse situations in the future. There is no room for cynicism here at all. Don't tell me to be afraid because i wear a turban.

That largely forms my basis for opposing the conventional view you've offered :)


Next time you're in the US, throw on a turban on your head and go visit the local mall, and than come tell me it affects everyone proportionally!
Done ;)

In NYC, i doubt it would raise much of a flutter. Elsewhere maybe different.

The mall ? I'd wear a turban for shits & giggles. For the life of me i cannot imagine a mall as an intimidating place. My biggest fear in that case would be running into a real sikh :eek::biggrin: How would i explain it !!

I was thinking more challenging situations ie night life and walking back shitfaced. When there more young & drunk people on the streets.


Here's one perspective of life with a turban vs a life without: The Sikh turban: at once personal and extremely public – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs (http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/08/the-sikh-turban-at-once-personal-and-extremely-public/)
A lot of this is down to attitude & personality. Harmeet the older brother still wears one. Why ?

The interesting thing is they only decided to cut their hair when they were 18. I'd have thought the bullying would be a lot less after than going through high school with it. Then again my two friends did the same.


That's the whole point of asking the FBI to track those crimes separately, so those perceptions can very well be tested. You have already taken your position despite admitting to not having those numbers when you staked the claim of everyone being proportionally affected by stereotyped hatred. I haven't been any more anecdotal than you, probably less, considering the fact I have the insight into both turbaned Sikhs and non-turbaned.
Sure, i'm going on a gut feel here, just as you are. My anecdotes vs yours.

Vinod2070
10 Aug 12,, 03:34
What tv shows do you watch? :biggrin:

I don't have to watch TV to know it. ;)

Any TV program will likely do.


I don't think the Arabs wear turbans anyways, its mostly only worn casually by Afghan, Baloch, Gujjar or Punjabi people.

Here is a famous Arab. Google (or your favorite search engine) is your friend to get any number of images with Arabs in turbans.

29763

Yes, it is kaffiyeh, not strictly a turban. The difference is probably too subtle for the audience we are discussing here. ;)

Tronic
10 Aug 12,, 04:09
We don't have Sikhs nor Talibans here, but I thought that in 90% of the cases people would make the difference. I think I can. Not that I need it at the moment :rolleyes:

Dok, I'm impressed you knew about the existence of Sikhs on this planet and can differentiate. ;)

You knew this before you asked me about the avatar or after? :biggrin:


Can see the reason why the Sikhs wants to educate people around - not to get killed by mistake and that's fine, just wonder if things go souther with Pakistan what campaign would Indians take.

A little lost, mate. Where do India and Pakistan fit in?

Officer of Engineers
10 Aug 12,, 05:03
I had a couple of sikh friends in the UK who cut their hair. From them it was more about blending in than being discriminated. Funny you should mention that. We have a Sikh here who shall remain nameless (Tronic) who refused to wear any head wear in -20C weather and when told that 80% of his body heat leaves through the head, he rather be cold than look bad.

Heaven forbid, it reached -30C, Toronto would have to call out the army again (I'm still fuming that I was dragged out of my warm bed to goto CFB Downsview to sit around just because TO can't handle 12 inches of snow).

Tronic
10 Aug 12,, 06:09
Funny you should mention that. We have a Sikh here who shall remain nameless (Tronic) who refused to wear any head wear in -20C weather and when told that 80% of his body heat leaves through the head, he rather be cold than look bad.

Thanks for ratting me out Colonel! :rolleyes:

In my defence, I couldn't find myself a hip turban like this Frenchie :biggrin::

29766



Heaven forbid, it reached -30C, Toronto would have to call out the army again (I'm still fuming that I was dragged out of my warm bed to goto CFB Downsview to sit around just because TO can't handle 12 inches of snow).

I know eh! Those Southern wussies!

I've shifted base to Thunder Bay nowadays, will be flying there in September. By next summer, looking to shift further up north to Fort McMurray. I don't think I'll be running away from head wear up there, partly due to the cold, and partly due to the fact that you don't need to look good among a town full of alcoholics and crackheads. :biggrin:

Tronic
10 Aug 12,, 06:11
Pretty interesting doc on British Sikhs:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYi8KSwWzqM

Doktor
10 Aug 12,, 07:19
Dok, I'm impressed you knew about the existence of Sikhs on this planet and can differentiate. ;)

You knew this before you asked me about the avatar or after? :biggrin:
:biggrin: Saw this comming. I would call them Indians, not Sikhs, but would have differentiated them from Talibans ;) And as I said we have none here.


A little lost, mate. Where do India and Pakistan fit in?
If tomorrow Pakistan does something and Pakistani community in USA becomes a target of hate crimes I wonder what campaign would have been done to make a difference on first sight.

Tronic
10 Aug 12,, 20:39
:biggrin: Saw this comming. I would call them Indians, not Sikhs, but would have differentiated them from Talibans ;) And as I said we have none here.


If tomorrow Pakistan does something and Pakistani community in USA becomes a target of hate crimes I wonder what campaign would have been done to make a difference on first sight.

Dok, the Indian-Pakistani politics doesn't come into play here since a large portion of Sikhs in the Americas, especially the ones on the West coast, are second or third generation Sikhs and don't identify themselves as Indians. Their great-grandfathers migrated to the Americas in the late 1800s or early 1900s, at a time when Pakistan did not exist and Punjab was undivided, meaning many of their ancestral homes are today in the Punjabi lands which became a part of Pakistan in 1947. Besides them, the Sikh community in the West is also made up of a large portion of the over 100,000 Afghan Sikhs which have been fleeing Afghanistan since the '80s due to religious persecution in that country. The subcontinent's geopolitics are of little concern to the larger Sikh communities in the West.

Vinod2070
12 Aug 12,, 11:11
Dok, the Indian-Pakistani politics doesn't come into play here since a large portion of Sikhs in the Americas, especially the ones on the West coast, are second or third generation Sikhs and don't identify themselves as Indians. Their great-grandfathers migrated to the Americas in the late 1800s or early 1900s, at a time when Pakistan did not exist and Punjab was undivided, meaning many of their ancestral homes are today in the Punjabi lands which became a part of Pakistan in 1947. Besides them, the Sikh community in the West is also made up of a large portion of the over 100,000 Afghan Sikhs which have been fleeing Afghanistan since the '80s due to religious persecution in that country. The subcontinent's geopolitics are of little concern to the larger Sikh communities in the West.

How large is that portion?

I have met a few on the West coast and most of them still have families/property and interests in India. They travel there quite frequently and consider themselves American Indians like many other American Indians.

Of course, this is not to say there may not be many who identify themselves as just American. Especially after the tragic events of 1984. Many in areas like Vancouver have become quite radical as well.

Some have come quite far from the days when Hindu families sent their oldest kids to become Sikhs and go save the Dharma. ;)

Tronic
13 Aug 12,, 05:47
How large is that portion?

I have met a few on the West coast and most of them still have families/property and interests in India. They travel there quite frequently and consider themselves American Indians like many other American Indians.

Of course, this is not to say there may not be many who identify themselves as just American. Especially after the tragic events of 1984.

Vinod, the point being that the Sikh community in the Americas (both Canada and the US) is very diverse; therefore, they do not collectively identify themselves as Indian.

I’ve travelled to BC and seen the Vancouver lowlands, places like Surrey, largely consist of recent immigrants from India and they all huddle up in the same suburbs. The older generation Sikh migrants are largely spread out through Northern areas of Vancouver, as well as rural BC. They are more integrated and spread out unlike the recent immigrant communities. The farms and lumber mills in BC mostly belong to the older gen Sikh community.

If you were to travel to Espanola in New Mexico, the Sikh community there is largely Caucasian, with some Afro-American converts. They belong to an American sect of Sikhism called the “Sikh Dharma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh_Dharma)", and although they are seen as heretics by the Punjabi clergy, they still form a part of the wider American Sikh community, numbering in their thousands.


Many in areas like Vancouver have become quite radical as well.

Radical in their support of Punjab's secession from India, yes. Religiously radical? Not really.


Some have come quite far from the days when Hindu families sent their oldest kids to become Sikhs and go save the Dharma. ;)

Vinod, that's largely a myth. The Sikh Empire was established on the backbone of 12 independent Sikh 'Misls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misl)'. Each Misl was composed of a particular Punjabi clan. The Dhillon clan made up the Bhangi Misl, the Sidhu clan made up the Phulkian Misl, the Sandhu clan made up the Kanhaiya and the Nakai Misls, the Shaheedan Misl was made up of the very orthodox Damdama Sikhs (same fundamentalist religious school, Damdami Taksal, which Bhinderenwala would be a product of centuries later), etc, etc. The eldest Hindu son being raised a Sikh may have been a later practice, due to the discrimination in military recruitment practiced by the British in Punjab.

Vinod2070
13 Aug 12,, 06:04
The eldest Hindu son being raised a Sikh may have been a later practice, due to the discrimination in military recruitment practiced by the British in Punjab.

I guess I need to read up more on this aspect.