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tbm3fan
19 Jun 12,, 04:56
You know for a supposedly up and coming country this stuff still stuns me. This is really depraved for lack of a better word. Such a contradiction for women from one end of the spectrum to the other...



New Delhi, India (CNN)
-- Police in the northern India state of Rajasthan say they were stunned when a man showed up at a police outpost holding a bloody human head in one hand and a sword in another.The head was that of the man's daughter, chopped off because of her "indecent behavior," Umesh Ojha, deputy superintendent of the district police, told CNN.Investigators say the man, Oghad Singh, had paraded the head through the village on his way to the police station.Singh's daughter, Manju Kunwar, was in her 20s and was living with her parents after divorcing her husband two years ago. Her father accused her of acting indecently with other men.Authorities say Kunwar's mother is a farmer who was working in the fields at the time and was too distraught to talk. Singh works in a marble quarry.The beheading happened on Tuesday in Dengar Ka Guda, a village in Rajsamand District about 400 kilometers, or 250 miles, from Jaipur in the state of Rajasthan.Kunwar's head and the rest of her body were cremated according to Hindu tradition, police said.India is filled with extremes on many levels, including how women are treated. In India women hold some of the highest positions in society, from company CEOs to the president and speaker of the House, but this case highlights another side of India, one in which women still suffer the consequences of long-held traditions that govern their behavior in Indian society.This month India topped the Thomas Reuters Foundation poll as the worst place to be a woman among the top 19 economies in the world. The foundation cited abuse, killings and discrimination on a scale unparalleled in the other developed nations.

Tronic
19 Jun 12,, 10:15
You know for a supposedly up and coming country this stuff still stuns me. This is really depraved for lack of a better word. Such a contradiction for women from one end of the spectrum to the other...

Chopping heads off is as common in India as it is chopping off body parts and shipping them to public places in Canada. Sick bastards exist all over the world.

Double Edge
19 Jun 12,, 10:47
Aforementioned poll & its methodology.

Canada best G20 country to be a woman, India worst - TrustLaw (http://www.trust.org/trustlaw/news/special-coverage/g20women/)

Tarek Morgen
19 Jun 12,, 11:47
A female head of state is a major boost but Germany...

Merkel is not the head of state, that is President Gauck. Merkel is head of the government.

Bigfella
19 Jun 12,, 12:25
Chopping heads off is as common in India as it is chopping off body parts and shipping them to public places in Canada. Sick bastards exist all over the world.

So it has only happened once then? That go for bride burning & other sorts of 'honor killings' related to gender, religion & caste? How about ritual human sacrifices?

DarthSiddius
19 Jun 12,, 14:37
Aforementioned poll & its methodology.

Canada best G20 country to be a woman, India worst - TrustLaw (http://www.trust.org/trustlaw/news/special-coverage/g20women/)

India worse than Saudi Arabia? :eek: (that's just sad :confused:)


So it has only happened once then? That go for bride burning & other sorts of 'honor killings' related to gender, religion & caste? How about ritual human sacrifices?

Nope it has happened an aweful lot of times before, mostly in northern Indian states like Rajasthan, UP, Punjab, etc. But looking at our overwhelmingly large population, our bad apples are likely to be way more than what other countries can boast of. (Not that it lessens the severity of the practice in any way :mad:!)

hammer
19 Jun 12,, 16:53
So it has only happened once then? That go for bride burning & other sorts of 'honor killings' related to gender, religion & caste? How about ritual human sacrifices?

Stereotyping is very easy. In India we do read about how all Australians are racists, perfected the art of sledging in cricket, almost wiped out the native race, forcefully snatched their children to teach them "white" ways... etc etc... But the truth is, everyone should get down from their moral high horse and see the issue for what it really is.

We are 1 billion! how many of these incidents have happened? Nobody here justifies these actions. Police and law act against these animals. This is our problem and we will deal with it. Thanks for your concern. :rolleyes:

Double Edge
19 Jun 12,, 19:03
So it has only happened once then?
heh, you're thinking about this (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9216576/Bollywood-actress-beheaded-Indian-police-find-torso-but-not-head.html)

A beheading is unusual by indian standards.


That go for bride burning

How about ritual human sacrifices?
Sati ? Rare in the modern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sati_(practice)#Modern_times) era.


& other sorts of 'honor killings' related to gender, religion & caste?
Honour killings do occur with regular frequency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honour_killing#India). Gets coverage in the national media, everybody wrings their hands until it happens the next time and the cycle repeats. People ask for more legislation but i don't think that will make a difference. I used to think this only happened in the north, but a google shows there are cases that have occurred recently in the south and its on the rise.

In the OP's post, a daughter was killed, the father will go to jail now. So that's a double blow to the family. if the state acts & jails him for the full life term it remains to be seen how it will be received. What happens if more family members were involved. There is a lot that does not get said here.

There is a famous case going on atm, the Aarushi Talwar case. 14yr old mysteriously dies along with the male domestic. The street says it was an honour killing by the parents who are both dentists but there is no evidence. And the local cops messed up whatever little evidence there was. Cannot convict until there is evidence. But in this case there seems to be a lot of public pressure to prosecute. So the case endures even though i think it has no chance as the evidence just isn't there.

Just the other day i read about a final yr law student who went back to her village to prepare for her finals. Her classmates in Bangalore were shocked to hear she died. Suspecting foul play they rushed over to find that her family had already cremated her and they said it was a suicide. Where is the evidence ? forget any autotopsy. These are the kinds of challenges you have to deal with.

Evidently there is a lack of sufficient public revulsion about the issue. This is one attempt to force the issue into the open.

Satyamev Jayate: Aamir Khan opposes honour killings in episode 5 | CNN IBN | Jun 03, 2012 (http://ibnlive.in.com/news/satyamev-jayate-aamir-opposes-honour-killing/264046-44-124.html)

Aamir Khan is a well known bollywood actor.

Tronic
19 Jun 12,, 21:28
So it has only happened once then? That go for bride burning & other sorts of 'honor killings' related to gender, religion & caste? How about ritual human sacrifices?

It is a gross generalization and a stereotype.

For one; while family honour, dowry, caste differentiation, et all, are all very real issues, to assume that these result in daily "honour killings" and "bride burnings" is an exaggeration. Children get disowned by their families, marriages are rejected or broken due to dowry, inter-caste marriages are shunned and force young folks to elope from their houses; but it is abnormal for a man to chop his dauther's head off due to "honour". If this was such a normal occurrence, it would not be national news.

Secondly, India is a union of various different states, each with their own social characteristics. Gender inequality is rampant in the North; Punjab, Harayana, Rajasthan, Kashmir, and parts of UP; a regional phenomena ranging all the way up to Afghanistan. On the flip side however, South India and North Eastern Indian societies are a complete opposite, and from them, India also boasts of having the largest matriarchal society in the world! The people of Khasi are one example. The Nairs, Bunts, Mappilas, Garos, Nambudiris, and several others, are Indian ethnic groups which are strongly matriarchal and place an emphasis on women as the head!

These societal differences are further illustrated in a blog I read a while ago, from a South Indian girl venting her frustrations about the Northerners: Broken Morning: AN OPEN LETTER TO A DELHI BOY (http://raagshahana.blogspot.ca/2011/09/open-letter-to-delhi-boy.html) :redface:

So to generalize an entire nation is not true. I admit that gender discrimination is indeed there in my neck of the woods, Punjab, but it is as unfair to put this label on the entire country, as much as it is unfair to put the practice of "Sati" on head of the entire country, when infact it was only carried out by the people of Rajputana. Either way, it is an extinct practice and amounts to murder in today's India.

Tronic
19 Jun 12,, 21:40
Aforementioned poll & its methodology.

Canada best G20 country to be a woman, India worst - TrustLaw (http://www.trust.org/trustlaw/news/special-coverage/g20women/)

Here's the link for the methodology: http://www.trust.org/documents/womens-rights/resources/G20Poll2012-methodologyandresults.pdf

I can't agree with it. Although rankings in this manner are worthless, how does India rank one of the lowest even in politics, where the most powerful political person in India has been a woman ever since 1967, give or take a couple of years in between. Even on the state level, a large number of states either have a woman in power, or a woman as the leader of the main opposition!

Officer of Engineers
20 Jun 12,, 01:40
Out of curiosity, what are this man's chances in General Population?

Deltacamelately
20 Jun 12,, 08:03
Out of curiosity, what are this man's chances in General Population?
He is fukced. Both legally as well as financially if he tries to come out free.

Bigfella
20 Jun 12,, 09:32
Stereotyping is very easy.

Indeed it is, but since that wasn't what my post was doing your response really isn't relevent.


In India we do read about how all Australians are racists, perfected the art of sledging in cricket, almost wiped out the native race, forcefully snatched their children to teach them "white" ways... etc etc... But the truth is, everyone should get down from their moral high horse and see the issue for what it really is.

All of those things are or were true to some extent. My response is to say that our culture and history contains elements and aspects of which we should be ashamed & should strive to change. See if you can tell the difference between that and this:


Chopping heads off is as common in India as it is chopping off body parts and shipping them to public places in Canada. Sick bastards exist all over the world.

(actually, keep reading the following replies, I'll give you the answer for free)


We are 1 billion! how many of these incidents have happened? Nobody here justifies these actions. Police and law act against these animals. This is our problem and we will deal with it. Thanks for your concern. :rolleyes:

Thank you for your evasion.

Bigfella
20 Jun 12,, 09:42
heh, you're thinking about this (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9216576/Bollywood-actress-beheaded-Indian-police-find-torso-but-not-head.html)

A beheading is unusual by indian standards.

I had actually forgotten about that. I was just taking a punt that it wasn't quite the isolated example it was being made out to be.



Sati ? Rare in the modern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sati_(practice)#Modern_times) era.

Wasn't actually talking about Sati - I actually did know aobut the '87 one & thought it was the last. The reference was to a particular species of bride murder - perhaps 'dowry killing' might have covered it better (though I'm not sure the practice is struictly limited to that circumstance).

The human sacrifice thing appears both more recent and more common than sati.


Honour killings do occur with regular frequency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honour_killing#India). Gets coverage in the national media, everybody wrings their hands until it happens the next time and the cycle repeats. People ask for more legislation but i don't think that will make a difference. I used to think this only happened in the north, but a google shows there are cases that have occurred recently in the south and its on the rise.

That is sort of what I was getting at - this sort of thing isn't just the work of the sort of sociopath involved in the Canadian killing & dismemberment. There are powerful cultural factors at work.


Evidently there is a lack of sufficient public revulsion about the issue.

Which is also what I was getting at. No one in Canada is going to pretend that what this guy did is anything other than inexcusably evil.

Bigfella
20 Jun 12,, 10:03
It is a gross generalization and a stereotype.

It was a response to an exteremely poor comparison. I find it interesting that each response to my post has preven exactly the point I was making - this isn't simply about a lone sociopath killing for kicks.


For one; while family honour, dowry, caste differentiation, et all, are all very real issues, to assume that these result in daily "honour killings" and "bride burnings" is an exaggeration.

....and that has what to do with my post? Are these all the acts of lone sociopaths? I neither said nor implied any of this.


Children get disowned by their families, marriages are rejected or broken due to dowry, inter-caste marriages are shunned and force young folks to elope from their houses; but it is abnormal for a man to chop his dauther's head off due to "honour". If this was such a normal occurrence, it would not be national news.

So if he had shot or burned the child you wouldn't have compared him to a lone sociopath?


Secondly, India is a union of various different states, each with their own social characteristics. Gender inequality is rampant in the North; Punjab, Harayana, Rajasthan, Kashmir, and parts of UP; a regional phenomena ranging all the way up to Afghanistan. On the flip side however, South India and North Eastern Indian societies are a complete opposite, and from them, India also boasts of having the largest matriarchal society in the world! The people of Khasi are one example. The Nairs, Bunts, Mappilas, Garos, Nambudiris, and several others, are Indian ethnic groups which are strongly matriarchal and place an emphasis on women as the head!

These societal differences are further illustrated in a blog I read a while ago, from a South Indian girl venting her frustrations about the Northerners: Broken Morning: AN OPEN LETTER TO A DELHI BOY (http://raagshahana.blogspot.ca/2011/09/open-letter-to-delhi-boy.html) :redface:

...ummm, that's nice. Interesting even. It has noting to do with my comments nor their purpose.


So to generalize an entire nation is not true. I admit that gender discrimination is indeed there in my neck of the woods, Punjab, but it is as unfair to put this label on the entire country, as much as it is unfair to put the practice of "Sati" on head of the entire country, when infact it was only carried out by the people of Rajputana. Either way, it is an extinct practice and amounts to murder in today's India.

Wasn't talking about 'sati', but more common versions of socailly sacntioned murder of women.

As for 'generalizing' I wasn't. I was pointing out that your choice to characterize this murder as akin to the actions of a lone sociopath was at best unintentionally misleading & at worst deliberately so. I was pointing out that some of us are aware that variations of 'honour killing' and other socially & religiously sanctioned forms of murder are not unusual in India have roots in Indian culture. They do not stand outside it in the way that the murder & dismemberment in Canada so clearly does. Your reply & others here have neatly made my point for me. Whether or not this makes India the 'worst' nation in the world for women is neither here nor there. Your society has gender problems that have either never existed in places like Canada (or Australia) or are so far in the past they are beyond human memory. I'm afraid that as long as those problems exist you will have to put up with the judgement of more successful societies (and yes, that was a judgement - a pretty polite one given some of the issues here).

Had you chosen a different & more accurate form of words I would not have replied.

Oh, and if this guy's name had been 'Muhammed' rather than 'Singh' I doubt any of us would be having these detailed discussions of Indian society and culture.

Double Edge
20 Jun 12,, 12:01
this sort of thing isn't just the work of the sort of sociopath involved in the Canadian killing & dismemberment. There are powerful cultural factors at work.
Agree so now how do we tackle it ?

First, there is a tendency not to acknowledge the problem. TV shows try to counter that but they also generate a load of hot air that quickly dissipates without any tangible results to show for.

Second, this is a total inside job, law depends on sufficient evidence and there is a very good chance of hostile witness and even recanting.

Circumstantially its easy to build a case but thats not the correct way.

Blademaster
20 Jun 12,, 12:41
So it has only happened once then? That go for bride burning & other sorts of 'honor killings' related to gender, religion & caste? How about ritual human sacrifices?

Ohh what about Australia? taking away children from Aborgines and teaching them to hate themselves? "Whites" only policies? I am sure we can all dredge up your country's past so please get over yourself and your holier than thou horse.

Double Edge
20 Jun 12,, 13:10
Ohh what about Australia? taking away children from Aborgines and teaching them to hate themselves? "Whites" only policies? I am sure we can all dredge up your country's past so please get over yourself and your holier than thou horse.
What if we make BF or anybody else an honourary Indian for the duration of this discussion ?

Will that smoothe over the ruffled feathers :)

Bigfella
20 Jun 12,, 13:12
Agree so now how do we tackle it ?

First, there is a tendency not to acknowledge the problem. TV shows try to counter that but they also generate a load of hot air that quickly dissipates without any tangible results to show for.

Second, this is a total inside job, law depends on sufficient evidence and there is a very good chance of hostile witness and even recanting.

Circumstantially its easy to build a case but thats not the correct way.

Fortunately dealing with it isn't my problem. Certainly the 'its a random psycho' approach won't do it. Going to be one of those horrible 'concerted efforts across society for decades' jobbies. Unpleasant & difficult. I wish you all good luck.

Bigfella
20 Jun 12,, 13:13
What if we make BF or anybody else an honourary Indian for the duration of this discussion ?

Will that smoothe over the ruffled feathers :)

Hey, deal with your own problems! ;)

Bigfella
20 Jun 12,, 13:23
Ohh what about Australia? taking away children from Aborgines and teaching them to hate themselves? "Whites" only policies? I am sure we can all dredge up your country's past so please get over yourself and your holier than thou horse.

Go right ahead, but why not talk about the present - that was what I was talking about. Didn't need to dredge up India's history to make my point.

Fascinating that a simple statement of fact in response to a clear evasion of fact should bring out such uniform responses. With one notable exception every other Indian poster either assumed I was saying something I wasn't, immediately went on the defensive or both. I wasn't being 'holier than thou', I was pointing out that Tronic was making a patently misleading analogy. Still, don't let that get in the way of a bit of self-righteousness. I must also compliment you on the consistency of the script - looks like your media has trained you as well as any Chinese nietzen.

Double Edge
20 Jun 12,, 13:24
Going to be one of those horrible 'concerted efforts across society for decades' jobbies. Unpleasant & difficult. I wish you all good luck.
Exactly. You're going to read about honour killings tomorrow and even in a decade from now.

Not everybody is going to walk into a police station with a decapitated head and turn themselves in.

We are still just at the 'raising awareness about this issue' stage.

And we've been at that stage for far too long IMO.

DarthSiddius
20 Jun 12,, 13:41
It was a response to an exteremely poor comparison. I find it interesting that each response to my post has preven exactly the point I was making - this isn't simply about a lone sociopath killing for kicks.



Yes, it is not a lone sociopath killing for kicks, neither is it something sanctioned by our society and culture. Infact this is rather an outcome of what that particular individual felt his culture supposedly was. (misogynistic misinterpretation?) The term 'honour killing' does'nt imply that killing one's offspring/family is honourable. He will not have increased respect from his peers. He is in jail. This was widely reported in the media. A vast majority of people in India are disgusted by this barbaric act. Even the CNN article posted here says that the police was stunned to see the guy walking in with his daughters head!


Wasn't talking about 'sati', but more common versions of socailly sacntioned murder of women.

What kind of murders are common and socially sanctioned? Your ignorance is becoming borderline offensive! A murder can never be socially sanctioned!! It is illegal and would land the guilty in all sorts of trouble irrespective of the reason he/she offers. The act of demanding dowry before/after marriage in itself is punishable by law in India let alone killing in the name of it. What makes you think these things are socially acceptable?

Things could have been better, no doubt about that, but don't call these "evils" to be common and socially sanctioned.



Oh, and if this guy's name had been 'Muhammed' rather than 'Singh' I doubt any of us would be having these detailed discussions of Indian society and culture.

No, we would still be having this conversation because of the simple fact that Indian culture among other things has had a significant muslim heritage and population. (which we do not brush under the carpet)

Cheers!

bolo121
20 Jun 12,, 14:13
Although BF may be a bit pompous on occasion, he's got a pretty fair point here.

Nobody other that DE was actually addressing his contention: That this points to more than one crazy guy, that there are powerful societal and cultural factors at work.
A bit of a media fuss is raised, the dust settles and then things go on as usual.
Instead we get the typical moral equivalence arguments about Australia also having bad stuff so somehow they are on a high horse.
For a while i felt like I was reading the the comments of any China article in the Economist.

Officer of Engineers
20 Jun 12,, 14:41
Nobody other that DE was actually addressing his contention: That this points to more than one crazy guy, that there are powerful societal and cultural factors at work.I cannot and frankly I will not believe that any culture willingly turn a father into butchering his little girl. It may have ended up that way for whatever reason but I sure as hell will not believe it started out that way.

Officer of Engineers
20 Jun 12,, 14:46
What if we make BF or anybody else an honourary Indian for the duration of this discussion ?There is nothing honourary about someone who is proud about exporting Fosters.

Doktor
20 Jun 12,, 14:50
There is nothing honourary about someone who is proud about exporting Fosters.

He is proud about exporting it so he doesn't have to drink it.

Officer of Engineers
20 Jun 12,, 15:02
And give a bad name to Australia with the real beer drinkers.

Double Edge
20 Jun 12,, 16:45
I cannot and frankly I will not believe that any culture willingly turn a father into butchering his little girl. It may have ended up that way for whatever reason but I sure as hell will not believe it started out that way.
We don't know the details around that story, just that he killed his daughter and the reason given. We put it together and proclaim yet another honour killing.

The underlined bit is pretty complex to explain and solve. The question is what are the factors and forces of the culture that promote and even defend the practice. The people that perpetuate this sort of behaviour do not define the culture, they just belong to it. Some communities or regions are more susceptible than others.

Social change is the biggest factor offered to explain the increase in honour killings. The last twenty years has created an environment for the old to clash with the new.

India's is a shame based culture. Honour & reputation are paramount. For some they come before everything. They view as treason where individual actions produce consequences that affect a collective, which in this case could be caste, village or family.

So the theory goes that in order to uphold honour people are willing to condone slaughter of their own flesh & blood and be protected by the community in doing so.

The difficult bit is changing this equation from feeling shame about what one's kid did to the family or village or caste name & reputation and then acting to protect it in an extreme manner.

Into feeling shame about killing one's own in order to defend said honour. In which case what happens to the honour. How does that get reconciled.

Are they factors beyond the immediate family that promote even coerce this sort of behaviour. What role do village councils play in condoning this sort of behaviour is unknown. There are all sorts of power equations at work there that people are reluctant to tamper with.

May have posted this earlier but here is a discussion on the subject. India tonight was among the best news shows we had largely due to the anchor, unfortunately the channel discontinued the prgram this year.

88EHvAzUW1g

Double Edge
20 Jun 12,, 18:37
Here's the link for the methodology: http://www.trust.org/documents/womens-rights/resources/G20Poll2012-methodologyandresults.pdf

I can't agree with it.
Its very brief so hard to say.


Although rankings in this manner are worthless,
Well, can we say that India is the best place to be a man in the G20 ? :Dancing-Banana:


how does India rank one of the lowest even in politics, where the most powerful political person in India has been a woman ever since 1967, give or take a couple of years in between.
Technically yes, but would she have had a chance if she was not Nehru's daughter ?


Even on the state level, a large number of states either have a woman in power, or a woman as the leader of the main opposition!
But their representation in parliament is low. This is why they've had to put in quotas couple of years ago to help the numbers. 50% in village councils, 25% in parliament. That is positive discrimination.

In the 90s there were more women in politics than in the noughties. Some say the extra money that got into the system favoured a criminal element that made it harder for women to run for office. Look at the present women in office, many are related to politicians, either the wife, sister, daughter or relative. Didi, Amma & Behenj are just that exceptions.

Its rare to get in without such a connection. Though the quotas might change this a bit.

gunnut
20 Jun 12,, 19:57
You know for a supposedly up and coming country this stuff still stuns me. This is really depraved for lack of a better word. Such a contradiction for women from one end of the spectrum to the other...

Shouldn't we be more tolerant of other cultures? After all, there is no such thing as "moral absolutism." We should view these acts in context with their cultural practices as opposed to apply our subjective concept of morality to them.

Tronic
20 Jun 12,, 20:26
My last word on the topic.


It was a response to an exteremely poor comparison.

Than see the post I was responding to. It was not an extremely poor comparison given the fact that the culprits in both cases face the exact same social stigma in the general populace. What I take being implied by both you, and the member who started this thread, is that these such “honour killings” are an accepted norm in society, therefore are not “sociopathic killings”.

The only differences between the two are the events leading up to the sociopathic behavior. It is still sociopathic behavior nevertheless. Yes, the perceived insult to honour may lead up to possible emotional trauma, deterioration of family ties and social isolation, triggering ASPD, leading up to sociopathic behavior. It does not mean it is an India wide ‘socially sanctioned’ phenomena as you imply below.


As for 'generalizing' I wasn't. I was pointing out that your choice to characterize this murder as akin to the actions of a lone sociopath was at best unintentionally misleading & at worst deliberately so. I was pointing out that some of us are aware that variations of 'honour killing' and other socially & religiously sanctioned forms of murder are not unusual in India have roots in Indian culture. They do not stand outside it in the way that the murder & dismemberment in Canada so clearly does. Your reply & others here have neatly made my point for me. Whether or not this makes India the 'worst' nation in the world for women is neither here nor there. Your society has gender problems that have either never existed in places like Canada (or Australia) or are so far in the past they are beyond human memory. I'm afraid that as long as those problems exist you will have to put up with the judgement of more successful societies (and yes, that was a judgement - a pretty polite one given some of the issues here).

The problem with your generalization is that India is not a single cultural entity. Yes, there may even still be illegal ‘socially sanctioned’ killings in some northern rural areas practicing tribal laws, but than that is akin to stating that all Australians are historically social cannibals due to the traits of some native tribes. These concepts are alien to many Indian societies, even on this board (Hammer's for one).

Given the homogeneous nature of Australian society, it is perfectly understandable for you to think the same of Indian society.


Oh, and if this guy's name had been 'Muhammed' rather than 'Singh' I doubt any of us would be having these detailed discussions of Indian society and culture.

Not to throw a wrench into your comparison, but with the small difference of “honour killings” being legal under Shariat law.

And detailed discussions of Indian society and culture is automatic after stereotyping an entire population. Otherwise, it is deliberate ignorance.

Double Edge
20 Jun 12,, 21:50
Not to throw a wrench into your comparison, but with the small difference of “honour killings” being legal under Shariat law.
Its not legal under Sharia. Religion has nothing to do with it.

In the muslim countries where this occurs there is a similar dynamic of tribal customs intervening.

Bigfella
20 Jun 12,, 21:57
Although BF may be a bit pompous on occasion, he's got a pretty fair point here.

Gee, thanks.


Nobody other that DE was actually addressing his contention: That this points to more than one crazy guy, that there are powerful societal and cultural factors at work.
A bit of a media fuss is raised, the dust settles and then things go on as usual.
Instead we get the typical moral equivalence arguments about Australia also having bad stuff so somehow they are on a high horse.
For a while i felt like I was reading the the comments of any China article in the Economist.

Glad somebody else got it.

Bigfella
20 Jun 12,, 22:01
There is nothing honourary about someone who is proud about exporting Fosters.

Sir,

I take exception to that.:mad: Fosters is the swill we sell to foriegners. I have never expressed pride about selling it, just bemusement that anyone would actually buy it. Still, as a small nation dependent on exports we have long since learned not to ask awkward questions about why people buy our stuff. :biggrin:

Double Edge
20 Jun 12,, 22:28
I take exception to that.:mad: Fosters is the swill we sell to foriegners.
And i take exception that this is the only swill you export instead of the stuff you like. Why is that.


I have never expressed pride about selling it, just bemusement that anyone would actually buy it.
They've been told its Australian for beer :eek:

Bigfella
20 Jun 12,, 22:37
My last word on the topic.

As you wish


Than see the post I was responding to. It was not an extremely poor comparison given the fact that the culprits in both cases face the exact same social stigma in the general populace. What I take being implied by both you, and the member who started this thread, is that these such “honour killings” are an accepted norm in society, therefore are not “sociopathic killings”.

The only differences between the two are the events leading up to the sociopathic behavior. It is still sociopathic behavior nevertheless. Yes, the perceived insult to honour may lead up to possible emotional trauma, deterioration of family ties and social isolation, triggering ASPD, leading up to sociopathic behavior. It does not mean it is an India wide ‘socially sanctioned’ phenomena as you imply below.

Once again you are being evasive. As you wish.



The problem with your generalization is that India is not a single cultural entity. Yes, there may even still be illegal ‘socially sanctioned’ killings in some northern rural areas practicing tribal laws, but than that is akin to stating that all Australians are historically social cannibals due to the traits of some native tribes. These concepts are alien to many Indian societies, even on this board (Hammer's for one).

India is a single nation and I have seen posters on these board & elseahere loudly proclaim an 'Indian culture' that preceded the British political structure which modern day India inherited. I am not claiming & have not implied that this behaviour is broadly acceptable, but it is beyond question (as a number of posts here by a number of indians has made clear) that there are parts of India where it is. Rationalize it any way you choose, but it is very definately an 'indian' problem.

As for your 'cannibals, another poor analogy. If you are aware of examples of this behaviour persisting into Australia's existence as a nation by all means point them out. My understanding is that the literal handful of tribes that did this ceased to do so before an Australian nation existed.


Given the homogeneous nature of Australian society, it is perfectly understandable for you to think the same of Indian society.

Having lectured me on my 'generalizing about India' and then using the example of pre-Australian tribal behaviour with no links to the European-based culture that defines 'Australia' you then do precisely what you have falsely accused me of doing - gross generalization. For example, Aboriginal cultures sit considerably further outside 'Australian' culture than the dowry killers & human sacrificers do outside 'Indian' culture. Once again, por arguments seem to lend themselves to poor analogies.


Not to throw a wrench into your comparison, but with the small difference of “honour killings” being legal under Shariat law.

No, they are generally due to cultural practices that people have chosen to associate with Islam. That is why non-Muslim Arabs (Christian & Alevi) have similar problems.


And detailed discussions of Indian society and culture is automatic after stereotyping an entire population. Otherwise, it is deliberate ignorance.

The only 'stereotyping' here is either occouring in the imagination of Indians ore being done by them (you in particular). As I pointed out earlier, this resembles nothing so much as a discussion of pretty much anything with those Chinese posters who spontaneously appear whenever there is a controversy - the replies are so predictibly pro forma that they bear little relationship to what they are actually responding to.

If this beheading had been in a Pakistani tribal area & a Pakistani poster had come on here proclaiming that pakistan is a complex society & these areas are not really representitive of pakistan or the person who did it was a sociopath etc. etc. he or she would be howled down by WABbers with Indians leading the charge. Your response to my point about a double standard had the killer been muslim simply confirm my suspicions. If people want to condemn this behaviour in some Muslim cultures for the barbarism it clearly is and condemn thoes cultures for their failure to prevent it then I don't see why those Indian cultures that allow it and the nation that encompasses them should get better treatment.

Blademaster
21 Jun 12,, 00:13
I cannot and frankly I will not believe that any culture willingly turn a father into butchering his little girl. It may have ended up that way for whatever reason but I sure as hell will not believe it started out that way.

All I know is that if the guy came up to me holding up his daughter's head and told me that he chopped her head off because she dishonoured him, I would not even think but act - clock him cuckoo and string him up and cut off his penis and his nose and disfigure his face and chop off his hand and flog him and make a living example of him and make him live out his life in shame.

There would be no trial no hearing. Impromptu justice on the spot. And I will personally shoot any lawyer that tries to defend him on the spot.

Tronic
21 Jun 12,, 01:19
Just to defend against your accusation.


If this beheading had been in a Pakistani tribal area & a Pakistani poster had come on here proclaiming that pakistan is a complex society & these areas are not really representitive of pakistan or the person who did it was a sociopath etc. etc. he or she would be howled down by WABbers with Indians leading the charge.

Errmm, no. That's a biased assumption. In post 9, I have already stated that, "Gender inequality is rampant in the North; Punjab, Harayana, Rajasthan, Kashmir, and parts of UP; a regional phenomena ranging all the way up to Afghanistan." So to say I'm being evasive is hardly true. I'm merely pointing out your fallacy. Pakistanis are by and large, Punjabis, Jats, Gujjars, Rajputs, Dogras, Sindhis, Kashmiris and Pashtuns; North West India is by and large Punjabis, Jats, Gujjars, Rajputs, Dogras, Sindhis, Kashmiris and Pasthuns (Rohillas). The ethnic, cultural and social composure of these communities on both sides of the border is the same. You're the one adamant on labeling these specific practices as "Indian culture". I'm not the one indulging in stereotypes here.

With the same ignorance, let's just condemn the "Indian culture" of Afghanistan and Pakistan for allowing such barbaric practices! :rolleyes:


Your response to my point about a double standard had the killer been muslim simply confirm my suspicions. If people want to condemn this behaviour in some Muslim cultures for the barbarism it clearly is and condemn thoes cultures for their failure to prevent it then I don't see why those Indian cultures that allow it and the nation that encompasses them should get better treatment.

I never condemned any Muslim "culture". I condemned the Sharia laws which practice this. A women being stoned to death for stepping out of her house with a non-related male is a little more than "culture". It's state sanctioned discrimination.

Secondly, I'm well aware that there is scarcely a uniform pan-Islamic culture. For me to label everyone from Pakistan to North Africa as "Muslim culture" would be ignorance. I'm well aware of the difference between the many Arabic governments persecuting their women, and the social persecution which happens of women in North West India, Pakistan and Afghanistan. I don't have cultural biases drawn along the national boundaries of specific countries.

ambidex
21 Jun 12,, 05:27
If this beheading had been in a Pakistani tribal area & a Pakistani poster had come on here proclaiming that pakistan is a complex society & these areas are not really representitive of pakistan or the person who did it was a sociopath etc. etc. he or she would be howled down by WABbers with Indians leading the charge. Your response to my point about a double standard had the killer been muslim simply confirm my suspicions. If people want to condemn this behaviour in some Muslim cultures for the barbarism it clearly is and condemn thoes cultures for their failure to prevent it then I don't see why those Indian cultures that allow it and the nation that encompasses them should get better treatment.


Don't talk for Pakistanis or may be you should give some examples where Indians are always found leading the charge.

Its not the first time you are called out for gross generalization of Indians and I can precisely quote your assertion back here. Your defensive tactic that Indians will appear like Chinese (generalization of Chinese posters) on controversial issues is not going to deter others who are free to participate in an open forum whenever they want.

Double Edge
21 Jun 12,, 07:29
I condemned the Sharia laws which practice this. A women being stoned to death for stepping out of her house with a non-related male is a little more than "culture". It's state sanctioned discrimination.
The underlined bit is false. There are zero stonings sanctioned by the Pakistani state to date despite Zia passing Hudood laws in the 80s. Musahrraf has moved to reverse some of the damage done by those laws before he left office in this regard by passing a women's protection law.

If any stonings have occurred then they took place in the tribal areas where the state does not have control. The taliban do a lousy job with Sharia laws rather they follow a mix of Deoband lite plus their customary tribal laws.

tbm3fan
21 Jun 12,, 07:33
Shouldn't we be more tolerant of other cultures? After all, there is no such thing as "moral absolutism." We should view these acts in context with their cultural practices as opposed to apply our subjective concept of morality to them.

You are cool with murder. Ok...

tbm3fan
21 Jun 12,, 07:42
India's is a shame based culture. Honour & reputation are paramount. For some they come before everything. They view as treason where individual actions produce consequences that affect a collective, which in this case could be caste, village or family.

So the theory goes that in order to uphold honour people are willing to condone slaughter of their own flesh & blood and be protected by the community in doing so.

The difficult bit is changing this equation from feeling shame about what one's kid did to the family or village or caste name & reputation and then acting to protect it in an extreme manner.

Into feeling shame about killing one's own in order to defend said honour. In which case what happens to the honour. How does that get reconciled.

This is the part that interests me the most. Theoretically, children are valued in all societies. Many societies put love of the child (flesh and blood) before all else. Procreation and the need to protect the next generation. In other societies this thing about one's honor can be more paramount than the love of the child as you seem to allude to above. So I am sitting here wondering how the hell that happens since genetically the desire is to create new life for most people and then for a culture to evolve where one could take that life because of honor. Can't get my head around that...

Tronic
21 Jun 12,, 08:27
The underlined bit is false. There are zero stonings sanctioned by the Pakistani state to date despite Zia passing Hudood laws in the 80s. Musahrraf has moved to reverse some of the damage done by those laws before he left office in this regard by passing a women's protection law.

If any stonings have occurred then they took place in the tribal areas where the state does not have control. The taliban do a lousy job with Sharia laws rather they follow a mix of Deoband lite plus their customary tribal laws.

DE, what gives you the impression I was inferring to Pakistan? Pakistan is hardly an example of a Sharia state; it still by and large follows the British penal system, not Sharia.

Try Saudi Arabia, Iran, Yemen, Jordan, Libya, Oman, etc, if you wish to discuss Sharia. Pakistan is a poor example.

Double Edge
21 Jun 12,, 08:49
DE, what gives you the impression I was inferring to Pakistan? Pakistan is hardly an example of a Sharia state; it still by and large follows the British penal system, not Sharia.

Try Saudi Arabia, Iran, Yemen, Jordan, Libya, Oman, etc, if you wish to discuss Sharia. Pakistan is a poor example.
Very good

hammer
21 Jun 12,, 10:08
Your response to my point about a double standard had the killer been muslim simply confirm my suspicions. If people want to condemn this behaviour in some Muslim cultures for the barbarism it clearly is and condemn thoes cultures for their failure to prevent it then I don't see why those Indian cultures that allow it and the nation that encompasses them should get better treatment.

Really? Indian culture allows it? Did we shower him with flowers and carry him on our shoulders all the way to the Police van? Did the lawyers cheer him all the way to the court? Did we call him a "Shaheed" for butchering his own daughter ?

My point is very simple, We in India reacted the same way anyone else would have reacted after reading this news. With horror. Nobody justifies it. We don't condone it. Period. If you are trying to imply otherwise, then all i can say is you really don't know what you are talking about.

Double Edge
21 Jun 12,, 10:13
This is the part that interests me the most.
Good because so far i've been winging it :biggrin:


Theoretically, children are valued in all societies. Many societies put love of the child (flesh and blood) before all else. Procreation and the need to protect the next generation. In other societies this thing about one's honor can be more paramount than the love of the child as you seem to allude to above. So I am sitting here wondering how the hell that happens since genetically the desire is to create new life for most people and then for a culture to evolve where one could take that life because of honor. Can't get my head around that...
This will take some research from Sociology & Anthropology to answer. There isn't a whole lot out there as yet. In the tv show i linked earlier, Nandy mentioned there isn't enough data (just the last five years) to draw conclusions about whether it has increased or not. And to be able to tackle this issue the problem has to be better understood.

It is counter-intuitive as you say as I would think we are hard wired into providing for & protecting the next generation. So how is this instinct being bypassed or overcome. Because for all intents & purposes the families of the victims are seen as coimplicit if not in actually committing the act then condoning it by others. That there are certain red lines that just cannot be crossed.

It makes me suspect that the need of the collective overcomes that of the individual. That there is some degree of coercion and the individual is powerless to stop the collective from asserting itself in an otherwise private domain.

If the individual resists then they are excommunicated from the village or community. When people have alternatives this isn't an issue but it could be for those who are unable to leave. Thing is there are instances of the same happening in cities in India and even in the west among immigrant communities. So how is it that this long arm of the village reaches out and still plays a role.

People are becoming more mobile now, their sources of income are increasing and the young are becoming assertive and want to live their lives on their terms rather than some codes from the past. This is causing friction as those that have the most to lose, namely power sense a threat who then act in ways or influence actions to preserve that power. Saying who one cannot marry is vesting an incredible amount of control over others.

This i think is the crux of it but getting to the bottom of it is likely to be difficult as this control can manifest itself in many ways. The state cannot do much and is best to keep out of it. Commiting murder or abetment to murder are already culpable offences.

This can only be addressed through social reform. A movement that has been pretty much dead in India since the last eighty years.

hammer
21 Jun 12,, 10:32
All of those things are or were true to some extent. My response is to say that our culture and history contains elements and aspects of which we should be ashamed & should strive to change. See if you can tell the difference between that and this:

And we are very proud about this guy and his actions ? The point is about Stereotyping. We are not proud about these social evils. We want it gone more than you can ever imagine. But if you think for one sec that our culture condones these acts or turns a blind eye then you are way off the mark.

Double Edge
21 Jun 12,, 11:02
Wasn't actually talking about Sati - I actually did know aobut the '87 one & thought it was the last. The reference was to a particular species of bride murder - perhaps 'dowry killing' might have covered it better (though I'm not sure the practice is struictly limited to that circumstance).

The human sacrifice thing appears both more recent and more common than sati.
This is the other part of your post i wanted to explore. I suppose this would be a reasonable starter

Indian dowry deaths on the rise | Telegraph | Feb 27 2012 (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9108642/Indian-dowry-deaths-on-the-rise.html)

By Rahul Bedi in New Delhi 4:50PM GMT 27 Feb 2012

Dowry was banned by law in 1961 but never seriously enforced

In 2010, 8391 dowry death cases were reported across India, meaning a bride was burned every 90 minutes, according to statistics recently released by the National Crime Records Bureau.

A decade earlier this number was 6995, but climbed to 8093 dowry deaths in 2007.

Dowry, although banned by law in 1961 but never seriously enforced, is an ancient tradition prevalent amongst most Indian families.

With prosperity burgeoning after the early 1990s when India's state-controlled economy opened up to a free market system, this pernicious custom became more acute with greedy grooms backed by their families seeking to get rich through their hapless brides.
But if a bride refused to satisfy incessant demands by her husband and in-laws for money and goods, despite having brought with her the mandatory dowry at the time of marriage, she was subjected to inhuman treatment.

Thereafter, the luckless girl was either starved, administered frequent beatings or simply "jailed" inside her bridal home and denied all contact with her family.

If her family either declined to pay or were simply unable to do so, many in-laws in connivance with their sons forced the bride into an flammable nylon sari, doused her with paraffin and set her alight, claiming she had caught fire whilst cooking.

In the early 1980s such dowry deaths became so commonplace – climbing up to even five a day in the federal capital New Delhi-that anti-dowry activists forced the government in 1986 to change prevailing laws stacked against the bride.

Consequently, all such deaths by burning within seven years of marriage were deemed 'unnatural' and cases of murder were immediately registered against the husband and his parents.

The brides' dying statements were also treated as inviolate evidence, a move that led to a reduction in the number of such cases soon after the law was first passed.

But hundreds of bride burning cases go unreported.

It also takes decades for the simplest of cases in India's overloaded courts to be decided, after which the litigants invariably file appeal petitions leading to further interminable delays and denial of timely justice.

Three years ago India's Supreme Court declared that no mercy should be shown to those found guilty of burning brides for not bringing adequate dowry.

"On one hand people regard women as devi (goddess), on the other hand they burn them alive. This is against the norms of civilised society. It's barbaric," former Justice Markandey Katju remarked in response to an appeal filed by a husband handed a life sentence by a Sessions court for burning his wife.


I'm afraid that as long as those problems exist you will have to put up with the judgement of more successful societies (and yes, that was a judgement - a pretty polite one given some of the issues here).
And that is fine by me, i'm glad that at this moment India is getting compared with more advanced countries rather than being relegated to the developing bracket. That to me is an achievement.

The challenge as always is it has to come from within. Building up that critical mass is going to take concerted efforts. There are so many pressing issues to solve that difficult problems such as these tend to be neglected.

Hopefully this will spur change in the right direction. Help NGO's wth funding that seek to more directly target these issues. And that makes me think India in last place has to be an excellent sales pitch for NGO's seeking funding to address these issues.

Awesome idea for more aid $$ :biggrin:

Bigfella
21 Jun 12,, 11:09
Just to defend against your accusation.

This could go on for some time


Errmm, no. That's a biased assumption.

So if a Pakistani poster likened a killing like this to the act of a sociopath WABbers would just shrug their shoulders & go 'OK'. Sure.


In post 9, I have already stated that, "Gender inequality is rampant in the North; Punjab, Harayana, Rajasthan, Kashmir, and parts of UP; a regional phenomena ranging all the way up to Afghanistan." So to say I'm being evasive is hardly true.

That you accept gender inequality does not change the fact that repeatedly likening this killing to the behaviour of a sociopath acting completely outside any acceptable social norms is evasive & misleading. This killing & others like it happen because of cultural factors.


I'm merely pointing out your fallacy. Pakistanis are by and large, Punjabis, Jats, Gujjars, Rajputs, Dogras, Sindhis, Kashmiris and Pashtuns; North West India is by and large Punjabis, Jats, Gujjars, Rajputs, Dogras, Sindhis, Kashmiris and Pasthuns (Rohillas). The ethnic, cultural and social composure of these communities on both sides of the border is the same. You're the one adamant on labeling these specific practices as "Indian culture". I'm not the one indulging in stereotypes here.

These practices are a part of 'Indian Culture' just as thay are a part of the cultures of other nations & societies. That they are limited to particular sub-cultures does not change this. The only stereotypes here are the ones you imagine I am using. Your problem, not mine.


With the same ignorance, let's just condemn the "Indian culture" of Afghanistan and Pakistan for allowing such barbaric practices! :rolleyes:

Characterize it however you want. personally I would have said that those practices were part of the culture of Afghanistan, Pakistan (and Bangladesh for that matter). They may also be part of sub-cultures or cultures that are transnational. In this case those practices are belong to cultures that are indigneous to those areas so the nation-states that have been formed by those people get lumped with them as long as the practices continue to exist.


I never condemned any Muslim "culture". I condemned the Sharia laws which practice this. A women being stoned to death for stepping out of her house with a non-related male is a little more than "culture". It's state sanctioned discrimination.

I stick by my original point, if this guy had been Muslim no small number of people here would have jumped straight to 'this is barbaric' rather than engaging in a lengthy discourse about the complexities of muslim culture or comparisons to sociopathy.


Secondly, I'm well aware that there is scarcely a uniform pan-Islamic culture. For me to label everyone from Pakistan to North Africa as "Muslim culture" would be ignorance. I'm well aware of the difference between the many Arabic governments persecuting their women, and the social persecution which happens of women in North West India, Pakistan and Afghanistan. I don't have cultural biases drawn along the national boundaries of specific countries.

Then I guess we have something in common.

Bigfella
21 Jun 12,, 11:19
Its not the first time you are called out for gross generalization of Indians and I can precisely quote your assertion back here.

Go ahead. Just make sure you link to the threads in question so we can get the context and your contibutions too. It will give me the chance to remind the forum just how prejudiced you are.


Your defensive tactic that Indians will appear like Chinese (generalization of Chinese posters) on controversial issues is not going to deter others who are free to participate in an open forum whenever they want.

Nice to see that your analytical skills are intact. I wasn't the only one to make the observation. The only difference in the Indian & Chinese dot points was the inclusion of cricket. The notion that this observation is somehow designed to 'deter' people is somewhere between funny & sad. I am managing to participate in this open forum despite all the incorrect claims being made about my opinions, I assume others can cope with a simple & accurate observation about theirs.

Still, if it is all to much for you then don't stay around. I'm sure the skiing in NZ is nice this time of year - much more fun.

Bigfella
21 Jun 12,, 11:29
Really? Indian culture allows it? Did we shower him with flowers and carry him on our shoulders all the way to the Police van? Did the lawyers cheer him all the way to the court? Did we call him a "Shaheed" for butchering his own daughter ?

So Sikh culture is not Indian? It doesn't exist in India? This guy is a migrant from a distant land?


My point is very simple, We in India reacted the same way anyone else would have reacted after reading this news. With horror.

Yes, I know.



Nobody justifies it.

If that were true it would never have happend & nor would similar killings take place. By all means point out that this is not the norm, is not broadly accepted, is isolated, is illegal & treated as so by legal authorities etc. Completely reasonable points to make. However, the idea that nobody in India justifies 'honour killings' is simply not true. If it were they would not happen.


We don't condone it. Period. If you are trying to imply otherwise, then all i can say is you really don't know what you are talking about.

All the 'implying' here is being done by other people. What I have pointed out & continue to point out is what most Indian posters here have conceded (including the one I initially disagreed with) - honour killings (of which this is one) continue to take place in India. They are the product of specific cultural beliefs indigenous to particular parts of India just as they are the product of such beliefs in other societies. This is not the random act of a sociopath. That is it. That is all. Show me I'm wrong - no one has so far.

Doktor
21 Jun 12,, 11:33
BF,

I understand your fury that such practices occur somewhere, even more close to you, but I have an impression you are barking the wrong tree here.

All of the Indian WABbers are discussed of the act and are very aware of the problem.

If someone didn't compare the situation with Canada or Oz, this conversation would have been over (I guess)

Bigfella
21 Jun 12,, 11:34
And we are very proud about this guy and his actions ? The point is about Stereotyping. We are not proud about these social evils. We want it gone more than you can ever imagine. But if you think for one sec that our culture condones these acts or turns a blind eye then you are way off the mark.

Not even worth wasting more time on.

Bigfella
21 Jun 12,, 12:13
This thread has been utterly fascinating. This one line has taken on the form of a Rorshach In blot test:


So it has only happened once then? That go for bride burning & other sorts of 'honor killings' related to gender, religion & caste? How about ritual human sacrifices?

Not only has virtually everybody read into it things tha twere never there, but I those readings say a great deal more about those people than they do about me. That some people have been so keen to make this discussion about me & my (alleged) views is also telling

This discussion has rapidly gotten into the sort of 'back and forth' that makes clear statement of opinion & intent difficult. For the record (and to repeat...again) my point was a narrow one - that the actions of this man cannot be reasonably compared to those of a particular sociopath because it was not an isolated & aberrant act but the product of his culture. He thought murder was the appropriate response to a social transgression because he had been acculturated to think that way, not because he was crazy. This man & the hundreds of others who commit these crimes in India are Indians. Their culture is Indian.

That was and is my point. that is it. I did not claim this practice is widespread nor did I imply it. I did not claim this practice is representitive of Indian culture nor did I imply it. I did not imply that this is widely condoned in India nor did I imply it. I did not claim that this is legal in India nor did I imply it. I did not claim that Indians are proud of this nor did I imply it. That it has been repeatedly stated that I have claimed or implied any and all of these things speaks to the assumptions of others and that alone. The constant accusations of 'stereotyping' are fantasy pure and simple. There has ben a good deal more stereotyping done of me than by me.

I'm not going to continue with the 'back and forth', so I'll leave the last words to others if they want them (well, I might make an exception, but just one). Thanks to those posters who actually understood my point & have been prepared to discuss the real issue here rather than waste time getting shirty about my opinions (real or imagined).

DarthSiddius
21 Jun 12,, 13:34
This discussion has rapidly gotten into the sort of 'back and forth' that makes clear statement of opinion & intent difficult. For the record (and to repeat...again) my point was a narrow one - that the actions of this man cannot be reasonably compared to those of a particular sociopath because it was not an isolated & aberrant act but the product of his culture. He thought murder was the appropriate response to a social transgression because he had been acculturated to think that way, not because he was crazy. This man & the hundreds of others who commit these crimes in India are Indians. Their culture is Indian.


The actions of this man "cannot be reasonably compared to those of a particular sociopath", agreed and moreover, "it was not an isolated & aberrant act but the product of his culture." (atleast what he thinks his culture requires him to do that is)

This man is Indian and others who commit those crimes are Indian as well so is there culture "Indian". But what can be said to be Indian culture can easily conflict with what is considered to be Indian culture in some other (or even that very same) part of India. This can be challenging to understand for people from homogenious societies to undertand. Before formulating a rebuke do give a chance to my reasoning, will you?

For example: My family always gave importance to raising me and my sister "equally". I wasn't given any special treatment/importance vis-a-vis my sister or other siblings. (Not even if I wanted it :Dancing-Banana:). Women in my family have traditionally been independent and have equal say (if not more, my dad didn't particularly like sleeping on the couch! :tongue:) in matters, etc. This has been more or less how my friends have it in their families as well.

My point is, if you consider a father beheading/killing his own daughter (due to whatever reasoning he cooked up) as part of Indian culture, than you must consider my example as part of Indian culture as well, isn't it? Aren't these in direct conflict with each other? Keeping this in mind do try to understand that when you make a statement about a culture as a whole you have a very narrow margin to go by, and 9 times out of 10 you would inadvertently generalize and spout a logical fallacy.



That was and is my point. that is it. I did not claim this practice is widespread nor did I imply it. I did not claim this practice is representitive of Indian culture nor did I imply it. I did not imply that this is widely condoned in India nor did I imply it. I did not claim that this is legal in India nor did I imply it. I did not claim that Indians are proud of this nor did I imply it. That it has been repeatedly stated that I have claimed or implied any and all of these things speaks to the assumptions of others and that alone. The constant accusations of 'stereotyping' are fantasy pure and simple. There has ben a good deal more stereotyping done of me than by me.


What you say above contradicts what you said just before it! :confused: Any how it was good to know your stand on the matter.



I'm not going to continue with the 'back and forth', so I'll leave the last words to others if they want them (well, I might make an exception, but just one). Thanks to those posters who actually understood my point & have been prepared to discuss the real issue here rather than waste time getting shirty about my opinions (real or imagined).


As long as we remain civil and clear minded I don't see any harm in this 'back and forth', after all this is what this forum is for, isn't it? Plus, if not for this 'back and forth' I'd not have read DE's posts which were in some ways eye opening with respect to the magnitude of the problem India and its culture faces, even today!

However, position of women in India worse than Saudi Arabia is something I refuse to believe. (Unless proven otherwise!)

Officer of Engineers
21 Jun 12,, 13:46
I think it was Spartan who posted stories about gender killings in Pakistan. And then how fathers and brothers were waiting outside the court house with AK-47s to shoot the bastards.

ambidex
21 Jun 12,, 14:57
Go ahead. Just make sure you link to the threads in question so we can get the context and your contibutions too. It will give me the chance to remind the forum just how prejudiced you are.

Prejudice against whom ?

You are the one who adjudged posters from Pakistan and India as ruckus creating in a thread I addressed to moderators on moderation of posters with small post counts.

Please provide links that only Indians have been leading the charge against Pakistanis. Your ~ generalization in your first post might have been defend-able or misunderstood but what came after showed how defensive you became by generalizing Chinese, speaking for Pakistanis; assuming some fictional scenarios with ifs about the case how WABer and Indians might have reacted if the same would have happened in Pakistan, when no Indian is defending this disgusting act.


The notion that this observation is somehow designed to 'deter' people is somewhere between funny & sad.

You have stated in this very thread that Chinese jumps into only controversial threads otherwise they remain dormant.
I can not comprehend any other reason but what I have stated, for your generalization on blogging [spellings] trends of others .

I am managing to participate in this open forum despite all the incorrect claims being made about my opinions, I assume others can cope with a simple & accurate observation about theirs.


Like I said, you might have been misunderstood but what came after was very general of you.

I'm sure the skiing in NZ is nice this time of year - much more fun.

Weather is too bad for last four days. Though I pay a very good amount of tax every year but I still think Skiing cost fortune.

hammer
21 Jun 12,, 15:36
So Sikh culture is not Indian? It doesn't exist in India? This guy is a migrant from a distant land?

All Singhs are not Sikhs. You assume too much.

29455

Take a look at him yourself.



Yes, I know.


Really, then how come the Indians on this board who are also products of the same culture are as repulsed as you are by this man?




This discussion has rapidly gotten into the sort of 'back and forth' that makes clear statement of opinion & intent difficult. For the record (and to repeat...again) my point was a narrow one - that the actions of this man cannot be reasonably compared to those of a particular sociopath because it was not an isolated & aberrant act but the product of his culture. He thought murder was the appropriate response to a social transgression because he had been acculturated to think that way, not because he was crazy. This man & the hundreds of others who commit these crimes in India are Indians. Their culture is Indian.

Utter garbage. You know squat about Indian culture, to sit on a moral high horse and judge it.

tankie
21 Jun 12,, 17:18
Culture/vulture /sculpture/rupture .pfffffffffffffft.

I HOPE THE BASTARD BURNS TO DEATH ,,,,,,,VERY SLOWLY , THE MISERABLE LAMED BRAINED EXCUSE FOR A HUMAN BEING .AND EVERY OTHER SHITHOUSE WHO TREADS THE SAME PATH :mad:

Tronic
21 Jun 12,, 20:30
So if a Pakistani poster likened a killing like this to the act of a sociopath WABbers would just shrug their shoulders & go 'OK'. Sure.

That you accept gender inequality does not change the fact that repeatedly likening this killing to the behaviour of a sociopath acting completely outside any acceptable social norms is evasive & misleading. This killing & others like it happen because of cultural factors.

Fine, sociopath was a wrong choice of words.

I'll just stick with the indigenous word reserved for these people, Jahil, i.e., barbaric and uncultured.

And I couldn't care less if a poster was Pakistani, I belong to the same region, I would completely understand why they would choose to call such monsters sociopaths.



These practices are a part of 'Indian Culture' just as thay are a part of the cultures of other nations & societies. That they are limited to particular sub-cultures does not change this. The only stereotypes here are the ones you imagine I am using. Your problem, not mine.

Characterize it however you want. personally I would have said that those practices were part of the culture of Afghanistan, Pakistan (and Bangladesh for that matter). They may also be part of sub-cultures or cultures that are transnational. In this case those practices are belong to cultures that are indigneous to those areas so the nation-states that have been formed by those people get lumped with them as long as the practices continue to exist.


How can social evils of one specific region be used to label a "culture" of the entire country? Even if we agree that this "Indian culture" is the male dominated female oppressing culture of the North West, Pakistan and Afghanistan, what does that say? That the matriarchal societies of the East and South India are not "Indian culture"? As clearly that creates a contradiction in the narrative of this "culture". Another example, "Sati" was practiced by the people of Rajasthan, and widely condemned and seen as a disgrace in Punjab, yet this blatant generalization overlooks the reality and stigmatizes all Indians with all the evils of all the totally unrelated and separate practices of various different people. So quite obviously it is a gross generalization.

As for Pakistanis, as you have invoked them in this discussion quite a few times, than let me reiterate again, Punjab and Kashmir exists on both sides of the border, as do the Punjabis and Kashmiris. We're ethnically and even culturally the same people.

Anyhow, continue however you like.



I stick by my original point, if this guy had been Muslim no small number of people here would have jumped straight to 'this is barbaric' rather than engaging in a lengthy discourse about the complexities of muslim culture or comparisons to sociopathy.

I can't answer for your pre-conceived notions.


So Sikh culture is not Indian? It doesn't exist in India? This guy is a migrant from a distant land?

Another stereotype. The man isn't a Sikh.

Funny how you accuse others for allegedly stereotyping people for their religion, yet you do the exact same here. :rolleyes:

Gender discrimination has nothing to do with the Sikh culture.

Sikh women were leading armies into battle as commanders and laying the foundations of Sikh kingdoms long before Australia even existed on the map!

Tronic
21 Jun 12,, 20:30
Culture/vulture /sculpture/rupture .pfffffffffffffft.

I HOPE THE BASTARD BURNS TO DEATH ,,,,,,,VERY SLOWLY , THE MISERABLE LAMED BRAINED EXCUSE FOR A HUMAN BEING .AND EVERY OTHER SHITHOUSE WHO TREADS THE SAME PATH :mad:

Amen to that.

Officer of Engineers
21 Jun 12,, 20:38
Sikh women were leading armies into battle as commanders and laying the foundations of Sikh kingdoms long before Australia even existed on the map!Figures. They've been telling men what to do for thousands of years. It's a wonder why the Sikh men never came up with scotch.

Double Edge
21 Jun 12,, 20:46
They're up there, what is it #1 or #2 in the country in terms of its consumption. Kerela tends to beat them now & then.

Tronic
21 Jun 12,, 21:40
Figures. They've been telling men what to do for thousands of years. It's a wonder why the Sikh men never came up with scotch.

Sir, neither women, nor the conservative religions in the region could stop Punjabis from producing nicely aged "Desi daru" and "Tharra" in their fields (Punjabi moonshine). Now, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole (I'm soft), but they seem quite proud of it. :biggrin:

tankie
21 Jun 12,, 22:18
Sir, neither women, nor the conservative religions in the region could stop Punjabis from producing nicely aged "Desi daru" and "Tharra" in their fields (Punjabi moonshine). Now, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole (I'm soft), but they seem quite proud of it. :biggrin:

Send some here for a taster :tankie::tankie:

tbm3fan
21 Jun 12,, 22:39
Amazing how scotch can smooth over ruffled feathers so quickly which proves we need more scotch...;)

Tronic
21 Jun 12,, 23:22
Send some here for a taster :tankie::tankie:

Hehe, must warn you mate, last time I went in for a taster, it was a one shot knockout. :redface:

I woke up, puked all over my cousin who came to check up on me, and it was lights out again. :biggrin:

Crazy times. :tankie:

Tronic
21 Jun 12,, 23:23
Amazing how scotch can smooth over ruffled feathers so quickly which proves we need more scotch...;)

I'm not much of a whisky drinker honestly. It's vodka for me. :)

gunnut
22 Jun 12,, 01:21
You are cool with murder. Ok...

I am not cool with murder. However, I am cool with "late term" abortion. Or are you saying a man does not have the right to choose?

Also, you didn't seem to catch the sarcasm in my post...