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troung
13 May 12,, 04:38
Ladakh clash: CO relieved of charge, unit to be disbanded
TNN | May 13, 2012, 01.53AM IST
Ladakh clash: CO relieved of charge, unit to be disbanded - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Ladakh-clash-CO-relieved-of-charge-unit-to-be-disbanded/articleshow/13114452.cms)
Ladakh clash: CO relieved of charge, unit to be disbanded
Indian Army is Shaken by the violent clash between officers and jawans of an artillery regiment at Nyoma in eastern Ladakh on Thursday.

NEW DELHI: Shaken by the violent clash between officers and jawans of an artillery regiment at Nyoma in eastern Ladakh, the Army on Saturday started a court of inquiry (CoI) into the breach of discipline and "relieved" the commanding officer of his charge.

The Army also began to "move back" the 226 Field Artillery Regiment to its "permanent location" at Durbuk from the Mahe field firing range, where the brawl on Thursday evening had led to Colonel Prasad Kadam, Major A K Sharma and sepoy Suman Ghosh, among others, being hospitalized with fractures, bruises and other injuries.

Sources said Colonel Yatinder Nandal has been temporarily given the command of the artillery unit in place of Colonel Kadam.

The CoI, headed by a brigadier, will establish the chain of events and the "complicity" of the officers and jawans involved, who would then face a court-martial and dismissal from service. The 226 Field Regiment itself will be "disbanded" at a later stage, with the around 550 soldiers being posted to different units.

All this came amid defence minister A K Antony directing the Army to present a "detailed report".

Clash was an act of indiscipline, not a mutiny: Army

The Army on Saturday continued to maintain that the Ladakh clash on Thursday evening was "an isolated act of indiscipline", insisting it could "in no way be termed a mutiny". "Neither were any arms and ammunition used during the incident, nor did the jawans capture the armoury," said a senior officer.

The Army also denied that the stand-off was still in progress with the jawans, who got agitated after sepoy Suman Ghosh was mercilessly thrashed by young officers for daring to complain about the behaviour of a major's wife during the firing training camp at the Mahe ranges.

"The situation was defused on Friday itself after 3 Division commander Major General A L Chavan and the artillery brigade commander rushed to the spot and interacted with the troops," said the officer.

The startling free-for-all in the highly disciplined environs of the Army has sent shock waves down the ranks, with the episode being viewed as "a complete failure of command and control" in the unit.

Earlier, an extensive study conducted into the high suicide rate in the 1.13-million-strong Army by the Defence Institute of Psychological Research had held that "perceived humiliation and harassment" at the hands of their superiors often served as the final "trigger" for jawans to take their own lives.

Blademaster
13 May 12,, 16:32
A serious breakdown of order and discipline. InA is right to be shocked. I would not be surprised if there are more heads to be rolled starting with the generals. There will be a serious reckoning with this. Is there an US or NATO equivalent of this sorry state of events?

Most likely, the regiment would be disbanded and all of the officers in the regiment would have a permanent stigma on their records for the rest of their lives. Maybe the lowest level of officers could escape the stigma but not the higher levels of officers and the soldiers would be most likely demoted and placed in other regiments and would have to start all over to re-earn the trust. Some soldiers would be forced out.

Officer of Engineers
13 May 12,, 17:10
Is there an US or NATO equivalent of this sorry state of events?The Canadian Airborne Regiment.

S2
13 May 12,, 18:39
"The Army also denied that the stand-off was still in progress with the jawans, who got agitated after sepoy Suman Ghosh was mercilessly thrashed by young officers for daring to complain about the behaviour of a major's wife during the firing training camp at the Mahe ranges."

The notion of females on a firing point is unusual but not unheard of in the U.S. Army/Marine Corps. Wives are occasionally permitted downrange to view the work performed by their husbands. What occurred here is difficult to imagine. Provocation? Rudeness? I don't know.

Still, junior officers whom "...mercilessly thrashed..." a private soldier is thoroughly antithetical to our principles of leadership. I simply can't imagine it. Ever. Not by N.C.O.s either. Either instance would aborgate any right/privilege to lead.

I haven't, but many of my peers witnessed brutal acts of discipline within the S. Korean army. Commonplace and publically done. At least in the seventies and eighties.

Tronic
13 May 12,, 21:41
The notion of females on a firing point is unusual but not unheard of in the U.S. Army/Marine Corps. Wives are occasionally permitted downrange to view the work performed by their husbands. What occurred here is difficult to imagine. Provocation? Rudeness? I don't know.

Its difficult to say what exactly transpired this early on, as there are plenty of versions flying around. It is either that the Sepoy/Private accidentally walked in on the Major's wife in one of the tents on the field, or, if the incident took place at a nearby GREF (General Reserve Engineer Force) camp, entered a room without knocking at the door first and walked in on the Major's wife.

After the incident, depending on the version of events, either the Sepoy/Private himself went to the Major to complain about the presence of his wife, or, the wife made a ruckus about being walked in on.

Now if this event took place on the field, than the Major and the other officers involved were already in a clear breach of rules as families are not allowed to be at firing sessions, except during specially set up firing demos for families.

The Major and the officers involved were again in breach of rules, when they physically assaulted the Sepoy/Private instead of reporting him, if indeed he had done something wrong. To top it all, they refused him medical aid (possibly fearing an inquiry for misconduct set up against them), and were quickly confronted by other Jawans who were seeing the incident take place, which resulted in a minor brawl.

At the camp, upon hearing about the Sepoy/Private being beaten and than denied medical aid, another group of infuriated soldiers went to the Officer's mess (temporary on-field arrangement) and started to create a ruckus. The CO, Colonel Kadam showed up on the spot and tried to diffuse the situation but he too was assaulted and injured, which resulted in another brawl between officers, who came to the Colonels rescue, and Jawans.

It is also reported that some soldiers may have gone out of their camp at Nyoma and into the town to hunt down the two Majors who had started the entire episode.

Meanwhile, upon hearing the whole incident, senior officers sent in an infantry unit from the Rajputana Rifles stationed nearby, who quickly moved in and secured 226's armoury and their big guns.

This is all what is being reported, and it may not be accurate. What exactly happened will only be revealed after the Court of Inquiry.

ambidex
14 May 12,, 05:20
Behind Army Leh clash, breach of rules, failure of command - Indian Express (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/behind-army-leh-clash-breach-of-rules-failure-of-command/948675/0)

A reconstruction of what transpired at the Army’s Mahi firing range in Nyoma, around 150 km from Leh, on Thursday:

The 226 Field Regiment had moved from Darbuk to the range for firing practice, and officers and men were staying in temporary tents. However, in a breach of rules, at least five officers allegedly also had their wives accompanying them. While families are usually invited for firing demos of artillery guns, wives and children are strictly not allowed at a firing practice session. Even at Darbuk, only a limited number of families are allowed, given that it is a designated “field area”. The Army says the wives were staying at a nearby GREF (General Reserve Engineer Force) camp.

On Thursday, as the firing practice was on, the regiment barber, identified as Suman Ghosh, is believed to have entered a major’s tent. The sequence of events is unclear, but a version says that on seeing the officer’s wife in the tent, Ghosh ran out in alarm. Following this, the wife allegedly created a furore.

The major, along with two other officers, is believed to have then thrashed Ghosh, as well as denied him medical aid. This was a second breach of rules as in such cases, disciplinary action is taken while physical assault is forbidden. However, the matter was believed to have been sorted out following the intervention of Commanding Officer Kadam. Ghosh was sent for medical care to a nearby field hospital.

In the evening though, things took an ugly turn when all the soldiers of the regiment (close to 500) returned to the barracks. A strong rumour spread that Ghosh had died after the severe beating. In a third violation of rules, the subedar major of the battalion — who is the representative of the troops — failed to quell these rumours.

Convinced that Ghosh had died, a group of soldiers went to the temporary officer’s mess and created a ruckus. As things started getting out of control and physical, Col Kadam, who was staying at the GREF camp, rushed to the spot to calm the troops. Here is when the fourth breach of discipline took place. Even as Kadam was reasoning with the troops, he was hit on the head by a stone thrown by one of the soldiers.

A fight then broke out between the officers and men. The temporary mess is believed to have been vandalised with some fittings being burnt down by the soldiers. However, weapons are not believed to have been used.

Officers of the unit fled from the spot, some rushing to their wives. At least two wives are believed to have been “rescued” by personnel from the GREF camp, fearing the anger of the jawans. By evening, all the officers had been accounted for, with one having fled to an Army camp in Chushul.

By late evening, as reports of the violence reached senior officers, troops were rushed from a nearby Rajputana Rifles regiment camp. While rumours of the soldiers seizing the armoury were found to be untrue, the Raj Rif secured the artillery guns of the unit. By Friday morning, normalcy had been restored as senior officers rushed to the spot.

A shaken-up Army is now trying to get things on track. Col Yogi Sheoran, who commanded the regiment before Kadam and is believed to have a good rapport with the troops, has been rushed to the unit. The Army denied that Kadam had been attacked by fellow officers. The commander of the Nimu-based 3 Artillery Brigade was also sent to the Nyoma camp.

While the unit was to earlier stay at Mahi for a month with its artillery, the firing practice has now been cancelled and all temporary shelters set up near the Nyoma range dismantled.

The Army court of inquiry will be headed by an officer of the rank of Brigadier or above. Given the serious breach of disciple, strict action, including court martial, is likely. A preliminary report on the incident has already been forwarded by the 3 Division 14 Corps. Incidentally, the 226 Field Regiment has had disciplinary problems in the past too. An inquiry had been ordered into allegations against the commanding officer of the same unit while it was deployed on the western frontier during Operation Parakram, following a series of anonymous letters.

zraver
18 May 12,, 08:53
A serious breakdown of order and discipline. InA is right to be shocked. I would not be surprised if there are more heads to be rolled starting with the generals. There will be a serious reckoning with this. Is there an US or NATO equivalent of this sorry state of events?

1917 French Mutiny, 1917 Italian collapse along the Izonzo, US fragging of officers in Vietnam, 1919 British Calais strike, Canadian navy mutiny (3x), Easy Co NCO mutiny 1944, 1994-5 US Army awol plague, Abu Gaihab, officer condoned [possibly led] beating and hazing leading to a enlisted mans suicide in Afghanistan....

When officers fail, the unit fails, how it fails may differ, but fail it will. NCO's may be the backbone of the modern military, but officers are its heart, the men will perform as well or as poorly as they are led- no better and no worse.

Deltacamelately
19 May 12,, 09:27
1917 French Mutiny, 1917 Italian collapse along the Izonzo, US fragging of officers in Vietnam, 1919 British Calais strike, Canadian navy mutiny (3x), Easy Co NCO mutiny 1944, 1994-5 US Army awol plague, Abu Gaihab, officer condoned [possibly led] beating and hazing leading to a enlisted mans suicide in Afghanistan....

When officers fail, the unit fails, how it fails may differ, but fail it will. NCO's may be the backbone of the modern military, but officers are its heart, the men will perform as well or as poorly as they are led- no better and no worse.
Well said!

The Unit is just as good as its Officers in charge. That being said, there are often one odd Officer or Jawan in any Unit who may potentialy turn a triffle into a big problem .

Blademaster
19 May 12,, 18:37
Yes but in this case, it started with the Colonel. Witness how the majors had callous respect for the Colonel. That alone tells me that he has lost confidence and respect in his men, a very serious breach of leadership.

Officer of Engineers
23 May 12,, 16:22
It goes more than the Colonel and the Majors. The regiment's entire command is rotten to the core. When you have an RSM who failed to quash rumours and also failed at instilling discipline (I like to see any troop who has the guts to stand to to a real RSM), it goes to show the lack of respect the men have for the regiment.

What boggles me is that I could not find one effort to save the regiment. No one offered to resign than to strip the regiment of her Colours. That the entire Command should be tossed out into the streets goes without question. But it's a sad state of affairs that a regiment is allowed to reach this low and sadder still that no one wants to save her Colours.

lemontree
05 Jun 12,, 05:48
What boggles me is that I could not find one effort to save the regiment. No one offered to resign than to strip the regiment of her Colours. That the entire Command should be tossed out into the streets goes without question. But it's a sad state of affairs that a regiment is allowed to reach this low and sadder still that no one wants to save her Colours.

Sir, as per old traditions we disband a unit if there has been an instance of mutiny in it.

A unit in which an officer manhandles his orderly, and an officer dares to assault his CO is a fit case for disbanding.
Our troops are the easiest to command if one behaves like an officer.

Officer of Engineers
06 Jun 12,, 01:37
Sir, as per old traditions we disband a unit if there has been an instance of mutiny in it.Raising new regiments cannot be easy. It took over 20 years to get the Ottawa 33rd Field Engineering Squadron its Regiment's Colours. To lose the Colours is a disgrace to those who spent sweat and blood raising and keeping the Colours.


A unit in which an officer manhandles his orderly, and an officer dares to assault his CO is a fit case for disbanding.
Our troops are the easiest to command if one behaves like an officer.I doubt that very much, Captain. Good troops demand the best from their Officers and being the best at all times is never easy. It's, however, very easy to behave disgracefully.

lemontree
06 Jun 12,, 09:44
Raising new regiments cannot be easy. It took over 20 years to get the Ottawa 33rd Field Engineering Squadron its Regiment's Colours. To lose the Colours is a disgrace to those who spent sweat and blood raising and keeping the Colours.
Very true sir, but a unit in which command failure has occured cannot exist as a fighting unit.
The entire command structure failed.


I doubt that very much, Captain. Good troops demand the best from their Officers and being the best at all times is never easy. It's, however, very easy to behave disgracefully.
Sir, as the saying goes. There are no good or bad units, only good and bad officers exist. Officers have to behave above board at all times, that is what makes their men follow them into the jaws to death. This is what differentiates us from civilian managers. Maybe I m old school sir.

Officer of Engineers
06 Jun 12,, 15:48
Captain,

You must have had some people who drove you nuts. Good soldiers but damned, their antics are just hair pulling. I've had one sergeant who as a practical joke on my engagement, filled my office with paper flowers. This on the day when I have an appointment with my Brigade Colonel.

Then, you've got guys like Tankie who somehow thought that guard duty is a license to steal.

And I've got a sergeant who asked me not to ask him where he got certain items. He said, if you don't ask me, I don't have to lie.

Then, the kids who tried so hard that they injure themselves by over-exertion and when tired, don't know the signs to slow down and think things through.

astralis
06 Jun 12,, 16:11
S2,

off-topic but hey, why not.


I haven't, but many of my peers witnessed brutal acts of discipline within the S. Korean army. Commonplace and publically done. At least in the seventies and eighties.

still true today, but hushed up a bit better.

i was once sent to ft huachuca for a week-long meeting with the SKs. after the second day, the 1LT translator came up to me and asked if i wanted to get dinner with him, for the rest of the week. "but what about your delegation?" "screw them, i hate every last one of them...they're going to spend the next few nights hitting up every t*tty bar in arizona and ask me to translate stuff like 'Can I touch here' or 'How much for a personal session'".

while we're eating i ask him why he suddenly switched to an upper-class british accent vice the General American he had been using for translating. he said he had grown up in the UK (son of a diplomat) and learned his english there, but was now serving his conscription time as a translator. he said the first time he had translated for an american group, he had used british english.

after the meeting, the Korean O-6 took him aside and punched him in the face, and told him that the next time he "insulted the americans that way" (by using british english) the O-6 would personally beat the living crap out of him, and not just his face.

i asked him when this occurred. "last year."

this was in 2010, by the way.

lemontree
07 Jun 12,, 06:16
Captain,

You must have had some people who drove you nuts.....

Oh yes sir, I had my share....one young chap who had to for a medical review (as he was under treatment for VD), was sent to the military hospital (MH). The transport used was a bus used to transport troops from forward locations to the nearest rail head. This chap felt home sick when he saw other men going on leave, so he did not get off at the MH, but tags along and goes home on leave. After one week I get to know from our duty NCO that he never reported to the MH, so I had to publish a desertion roll. But got him back to the unit through the other troops who were from his village.

One time I had to snatch a rifle from a soldier who had cocked it while having an argument with his platoon sgt for leave. I sent him to the quarter guard and reported the matter and got him posted out.

I had spent 4 days of hell tracing a belt of 7.62 mm MAG-58 ammo, during a board of officers inspection in a operational area.

Spent time expalining to a JCO (warrant officer) who was commanding a forward post, that why he should not fire tracer ammo on an enemy post that is on the same spur as us. His enthusiasm to harrass a PAk post (that was 70 mtrs below him), resulted in a starting a forest fire that spread to the the whole brigade sector, and blew up a large number of mines in the defensive mine fields all around the posts.

These are some of them sir.

Double Edge
01 Sep 12,, 16:21
Impression i get is we can expect more clashes in the future as the bonds between officers & soldiers are no longer as tight as they used to be.

Need to quickly redress officer-soldier discords in Indian Army | DH | Sept 1 2012 (http://www.deccanherald.com/content/275612/need-quickly-redress-officer-soldier.html)

Need to quickly redress officer-soldier discords in Indian Army
Brig R S Chhikara , Sept 1 , 2012

Over the past year, the ministry of defence and the three defence services have been in the news for all the wrong reasons. Thus far, it was primarily a matter of them being ill-equipped for war because of corruption in acquisitions and lack of performance of indigenous development.

But during the past few months, focus has shifted to a deeper malaise, particularly in the Indian Army.

What was projected as a self-serving stand taken by Gen V K Singh in the matter of his retirement and the twist given to reported movement of troops towards Delhi, hogged much national attention.

This has been followed by reports of collective insubordination and serious officer- soldier discord in two major incidents and the latest standoff in Samba which have truly focused attention on matters of welfare, command responsibility and morale within one of the best professional standing armies in the world.

Add to it, over 100 soldier lives are lost annually to suicides and fratricide. That the Navy and the Air force have come out largely unscathed is attributable to their minimal deployment under stressful conditions. It is necessary and urgent to diagnose the malady that has inflicted this great institution which was, till recently, lauded as the last bastion of values in an otherwise polluted environment.

Courts of enquiry will certainly find out the exact causes in each case but the problem no longer appears to be in the nature of isolated incidents. The incident in Ladakh reportedly resulted from unfounded rumours. But why did soldiers believe rumours and why were their officers found wanting in reassurance? Obviously, mutual faith has been a casualty.

Faith and camaraderie no longer seem to be the legendary bonds that they once were. A discerning mind will indicate several possible reasons ranging from the immediate to the underlying.

First, the intimate and regular interaction between the soldier and his commander on the PT ground, a game of football in the afternoon and a frequent tot of rum shared in the company langar has weakened.

Is that because there is only one officer available in a company against the authorised strength of four or is it because the officer is now busy building his career with a pen and not with sweat on the field. Is it because emphasis has shifted from playing, eating and spending time to learn when his wife is due for a delivery or if his old mother is ill.

Blood in battle

Traditionally platoon and company commanders were expected to know their men and their concerns to the last detail. Sweat on the play ground was an insurance against blood in battle. This relationship is all the more critical when troops are deployed away from their families for unduly prolonged periods. Stress levels are high and the emotional safety valve is non functional.

Second; Officers were known to stand for the rights, privilege and welfare of their men. They were expected to take risks for their men while pressing for leave, quality of food and promotions etc. There was complete sharing of privations and risks. The soldier did not need to go beyond his platoon or company commander for solving a problem.

Today, he thinks nothing of going to the commanding officer and may quite often contemplate legal solutions. Does he find the officer disinterested about those issues or does he find the officer helpless in the matter?

In either case he would tend to seek redressal at higher levels, and may sometimes feel tempted or compelled to taking matters into his own hands. Is it that the tight command structure leaves little to the initiative and discretion of junior leaders? Is it a case of the zero error syndrome prevalent these days?

Junior leaders are no longer encouraged to take decisions and risk making mistakes. A commanding officer now feels vulnerable to even silly little errors by bubbling young officers. All he needs is to project problems or represent with his superior and he is likely to end up with a 7 point report – enough to deny further promotion. So, it’s take no risk and make no mistake. The typical ‘Cover Your Ass Syndrome’.

Of course there are serious basic reasons underlying these behavioural changes. First and foremost, the officer has lost self esteem because he has been robbed of his due Izzat. He no longer perceives himself as an important person charged with a national responsibility. It is now seen as just another lower order employment opportunity.

No wonder that the quality of young men applying for a commission in the armed forces has come down several notches and many get selected for officer training on the strength of grace marks at the Services Selection Board.

And yet, a third of all vacancies go unfilled. Training courses, attachments and leave, result in units (already working with hard scales) being left with just 7 to 8 officers at any one time. Even they are required to spend much time on station duties like boards of officers and members of courts of enquiries etc.

On the other hand, the soldier today is better educated and his awareness levels and aspirations are much higher. It is natural for him to find fault and criticise the system - a tendency that is infectious and damaging to discipline in the absence of timely reassurance. It is time to take serious cognizance and provide the much needed healing balm before things get out of hand.

The least that needs to be done is to take urgent steps to make the profession of soldiering a lot more attractive.

lemontree
03 Sep 12,, 08:11
DE,

We shall continue to face these issues due to the paucity of good officers.
Today the armed forces is not a lucrative career option, thanks to the political and civil services.

Officer of Engineers
03 Sep 12,, 16:20
They lost you, didn't they Captain?

lemontree
04 Sep 12,, 05:25
They lost you, didn't they Captain?
I dont know sir, but I'm a happier man today. I am seeing my daughter grow up and I'm there for her.

Double Edge
29 Oct 12,, 16:33
DE,

We shall continue to face these issues due to the paucity of good officers.
Today the armed forces is not a lucrative career option, thanks to the political and civil services.
Not a lucrative career is the case in many developed countries too as the state does not seek to make a profit. To me becoming a soldier is a calling akin to a teacher or a priest. You don't get into it for the money to begin with. Yeah, you could have chosen to do something else and raked in more but this is what you chose to do. Naturally in doing so you expect to be treated with respect and compensated fairly.

However in the developed countries they have more options for those that finished their first 20, something i would like to see happen in our country too. In the good old days we had the morale but not the money, today we have the money but morale is declining. Is it that difficult to have both. Things are going to have to change in the future. The threats are not going away and always present if not increasing now that we are entering a multi-polar world.

But we seem to have other issues in addition to as the brigadier mentions in his informative article. Exactly what is required, for those in the forces to take a public platform and tell the lay person exactly what is going on. Otherwise we live under this romantic notion that the forces are the finest institution in the country that is magically immune to the rot that surrounds us in other areas of society. No doubt bollywood will only add to & strengthen that notion.

Corruption in uniform: A huge crisis in the making | DH | Oct 28 2012 (http://www.deccanherald.com/content/288474/corruption-uniform-huge-crisis-making.html)

Corruption in uniform: A huge crisis in the making
Brig R S Chhikara, Oct 28, 2012 :

Of late, there have been many cases of corruption among Generals, sleaze among middle level officers and deteriorating discipline among the officer corps in the defence services.

Shocking absolutely. Shocking to the people, even more shocking to any self-respecting soldier of India. By no means are such acts pardonable. Let us however examine what might be the genesis of the problem and what could be the causes underlying this malaise?

Where there are humans and especially where humans are under stress, individual indiscretions can never be entirely eliminated but organisations retain their efficiency and elan as long as these are contained effectively.

That is the role and responsibility of officers – Junior, middle or senior. If they recognise and respect what is good and discard, condemn and punish what is bad, the organisation will continue to flourish. There is an old saying in the Army “ No unit is good or bad – Officers make it so – Senior officers even more so”. That exactly is the area where things appear to have gone wrong in recent times.

This is not to say that the officers of today are any worse than those of yesterday. This is not to say that in my time military officers were made of different material. Times have changed, the job has changed, the challenges have multiplied.

In these times of degraded moral values across the nation, being an exemplary upright military officer has become excruciatingly challenging. Corruption, bribery, give and take, accommodate, have become such acceptable words affecting every Indian right from his formative years. A country where even the public has forgotten that plundering public money means robbing your own people.

Leaders are not born. They are made. So are military leaders. Look at the way India has started treating its military men. Rather than creating a memorial for its military martyrs the country is witnessing construction of one for the assassins of its generals. Not only are insipid supreme commanders foisted on the armed forces, political selection has even gotten down to generals and middle rung officers.

Our politicians are too eager to penalize generals for speaking the truth. Admiral Ramdas and General VK Singh could never get away with what Sam Manekshaw did. Each successive pay commission has downgraded soldiers vis a vis every other govt functionary.

A soldier is now placed below a peon and a Brigadier who used to be above Joint Secretary in the central Government is now equated with a director. The Chief of Army Staff who was earlier called Commander-in-Chief is now a non entity in governmental hierarchy. He is overruled by the Defence Secretary even in professional military matters of which the later knows little.

Immediate action

I remember a time when a lieutenant could directly walk upto the Chief Minister and be heard (and I did). A letter to the Deputy Commissioner about the domestic problems of a soldier evoked immediate remedial action. Today a commanding officer cannot get to meet or speak to the deputy commissioner or superintendent of police. Who has time for the well being of a soldier’s family? They are busy pleasing the local politicians.

The soldier himself of course cannot get past the daftry. Our public servants don’t think anything of asking their soldiers for bribes. Most second generation armymen today are denied domicile of any state in the country because their fathers could not stay long enough in any single state of India.

Their deserving children struggle for admissions in good schools and colleges. Is it strange then that the sons of distinguished Generals think little of their fathers’ ideals and do not want to join the forces, at least not the fighting arms? Is it strange that a young defence officer is no longer considered much of a suitable match for a daughter?

No family of means today wants to send their sons and daughters to the armed forces. How many of our politicians and bureaucrats have their sons in the military?

A sizeable proportion of the officers today come to the services looking not for a profession of honour and dignity, valour and adventure but for the job security it affords. There are of cource, some sentimental fools still around- second or third generation military kids looking for the lost respect and admiration of their countrymen.

It is said that respect begets respect. Respect has been denied to them. What then, can we ask of our military officers? How then, can one expect military officers to be paragons of honour? How easy then is it for an officer to extol the virtues of integrity to his men? Are you not pushing him into getting swept away with the prevailing national flow?

Is it possible to change the environment in which they are groomed?

Can we have separate boarding schools for these gentlemen? should politicians. babus and media be expected to treat them with a little more respect? Must the people behave differently towards them on buses and trains? Do we need to learn from other countries how to treat our soldiers? Does the change have to start from the top?

When push comes to shove, the military will be called upon to protect national interest and integrity. A well officered military has a better chance of doing so successfully. It is as much for the government of India as it is for the people of India to seriously ponder and ensure that the profession of soldiering is protected against the evil influences of an otherwise rotting social, administrative and political environment.

lemontree
30 Oct 12,, 05:15
Not a lucrative career is the case in many developed countries too as the state does not seek to make a profit. To me becoming a soldier is a calling akin to a teacher or a priest. You don't get into it for the money to begin with. Yeah, you could have chosen to do something else and raked in more but this is what you chose to do. Naturally in doing so you expect to be treated with respect and compensated fairly.

However in the developed countries they have more options for those that finished their first 20, something i would like to see happen in our country too. In the good old days we had the morale but not the money, today we have the money but morale is declining. Is it that difficult to have both. Things are going to have to change in the future. The threats are not going away and always present if not increasing now that we are entering a multi-polar world.

But we seem to have other issues in addition to as the brigadier mentions in his informative article. Exactly what is required, for those in the forces to take a public platform and tell the lay person exactly what is going on. Otherwise we live under this romantic notion that the forces are the finest institution in the country that is magically immune to the rot that surrounds us in other areas of society. No doubt bollywood will only add to & strengthen that notion.
I totally agree with you.

Some of my comments on the article you posted.


Corruption in uniform: A huge crisis in the making | DH | Oct 28 2012 (http://www.deccanherald.com/content/288474/corruption-uniform-huge-crisis-making.html)

Corruption in uniform: A huge crisis in the making
Brig R S Chhikara, Oct 28, 2012 :


Of late, there have been many cases of corruption among Generals, sleaze among middle level officers and deteriorating discipline among the officer corps in the defence services.
An example: The 2IC of my unit had the habit of being driven to the local brothel, a 2nd Lieut had to do it of the johnnies would come to know, I naturally always made an excuse. He would expect to be fetted with a "grand" meal if he ever visited a forward post. I on the other hand would feed him whatever he supplied my forward posts with. He was a louse who tried to make my rifle company NCO pay for damages to property in the Officers Mess, that his sons were responsile for. I would have none of it and refused to allow my NCO to be victimised. No other senior officer helped me, but I cared a damn. I have 1 1/2 yrs of service and he was 15 years my senior. As punishment, I was denied leave whenever I wanted it and was bad mouthed against with the new CO.


In these times of degraded moral values across the nation, being an exemplary upright military officer has become excruciatingly challenging. Corruption, bribery, give and take, accommodate, have become such acceptable words affecting every Indian right from his formative years. A country where even the public has forgotten that plundering public money means robbing your own people.
Totally agree with this statement.


Leaders are not born. They are made. So are military leaders. Look at the way India has started treating its military men. Rather than creating a memorial for its military martyrs the country is witnessing construction of one for the assassins of its generals. Not only are insipid supreme commanders foisted on the armed forces,...
Can anyone even deny this....


Our politicians are too eager to penalize generals for speaking the truth. Admiral Ramdas and General VK Singh could never get away with what Sam Manekshaw did. Each successive pay commission has downgraded soldiers vis a vis every other govt functionary.
The problem is not the politicians, but officers who did not speak up. They dont speak up at unit level and they dont speak up at AHQ, so generations suffer.
Sam Maneckshaw was rescued by the Chinese. Had the Chinese attack not torn up the reputations of Krishna Menon and Lt. Gen BM Kaul (Nehru's cousin), the Field Marshal would have retired a Maj General.

Double Edge
01 Nov 12,, 10:48
Yes, you and DCL always say the Chinese did us a favour.

But when i read parts of that article i still get the impression that the paranoia (reasonable or unreasonable) of a military coup that the politicians have has not gone away. Oh, you get more money to buy lots of toys nowadays but there is still a distrust and its corrosive.

Can see the same with the police forces too. There could be some crazy attrocity taking place right in front of their very eyes but they will stand still and do nothing. Why ? If they do their job their boss will get his ass chewed up by the local politician.

I don't know how to characterise this sort of behaviour but its very detrimental.

Doktor
01 Nov 12,, 11:06
Corruption.

Not only money, but promotions (in ranks), incentives (training in a country the officer asks...)...

Double Edge
01 Nov 12,, 11:35
I'm also wondering whether we've got some historical baggage embeeded in our DNA that gets in the way here.

The kshatriyas were the warriors, the ruling castes. How do we distinguish between warrior and ruler ?

Is it the dharma of a soldier to rule the country. Is it inevitable that the army must take over eventually.

So then the rulers must ensure that soldiers never get such ideas and hold them back any way possible.

Otherwise as night follows day they will take over.

Deltacamelately
01 Nov 12,, 13:03
I'm also wondering whether we've got some historical baggage embeeded in our DNA that gets in the way here.

The kshatriyas were the warriors, the ruling castes. How do we distinguish between warrior and ruler ?

Is it the dharma of a soldier to rule the country. Is it inevitable that the army must take over eventually.

So then the rulers must ensure that soldiers never get such ideas and hold them back any way possible.

Otherwise as night follows day they will take over.
:biggrin:

lemontree
02 Nov 12,, 06:35
I'm also wondering whether we've got some historical baggage embeeded in our DNA that gets in the way here.

The kshatriyas were the warriors, the ruling castes. How do we distinguish between warrior and ruler ?

Is it the dharma of a soldier to rule the country. Is it inevitable that the army must take over eventually.

So then the rulers must ensure that soldiers never get such ideas and hold them back any way possible.

Otherwise as night follows day they will take over.

Lol...no the army in India must remain away from power. He have too many sadists and buffons that will make the worst politician look like a puppy.

Double Edge
02 Nov 12,, 11:11
The PA was fulfilling its fundamental dharmic duties when it took over their country.

If it could happen there, it might happen here.

Lets make sure it never does.

I'm not saying the army should take over. I'm, wondering whether our traditional way of thinking about soldiers leads our leaders to distrust our army a great deal more than western leaders do. As I don't see a qualitative change in attitude since independence despite what you both say about '62. Oh, they don't starve you as much as they did then but otherwise what more improvement is there.

What is it about the west that makes such an event so unlikely that you could get away with saying its almost impossible. What more guarantees do they have that we lack. I can't see any, the Brits left us with a similar configuration. Whatever legalese they have we do too.

The only thing that is different is the mindset of our leaders which is influenced by culture and history.

And that is what i'm trying to get at.

Firestorm
02 Nov 12,, 20:18
The PA was fulfilling its fundamental dharmic duties when it took over their country.

Using the PA and "dharmic" in the same sentence is wrong on all sorts of levels. :pari:

Double Edge
02 Nov 12,, 23:27
Just an example, point was any army that takes over or does a coup is doing their JOB, nothing particular about PA.

That it is in the inherent nature of a soldier to RULE.

This is an old way of thinking where the concept of a 'civilian' does not exist.

Its only rulers & subjects.

lemontree
09 Jan 13,, 03:19
Update on the incident
5 officers held guilty in J&K clash with jawans - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/5-officers-held-guilty-in-JK-clash-with-jawans/articleshow/17946927.cms)


NEW DELHI: As many as 56 soldiers, including at least five officers, have been indicted by the Army court of inquiry (CoI) which probed the violent clash between officers and jawans of an artillery regiment in Nyoma sector of eastern Ladakh last May.

The CoI, chaired by the deputy chief of the 3 Infantry Division Brigadier Ajay Talwar, has recommended disciplinary action or court martial against 16 personnel, including the unit commanding officer, second-in-command and three other officers for abject failure of command and control, violence and other lapses....