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Communist German/Soviet Pact against Allies in 1939

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  • Communist German/Soviet Pact against Allies in 1939

    The change in history occurred in the Fall of 1918 during one of many gas attacks. A runner, a corporal estranged from his family and a loaner in his regiment is one of many who died that day, if perhaps even more un-mourned than most.

    As a result the right wing nationalist movements at odds with the Wiemar Republic were never able to coalesce into a unified voice. Not that this did the Social Democrats any good. Without a strong right wing to counter them the numerous, organized and externally directed communists first gained dominance over the other leftists and then turn on the left of center SDP. By 1933 they gained control of the Reichstag with a slim minority followed by the SDP and then numerous smaller interest and regional parties among them a Bavarian right wing party called the National Socialist. Just days after the communist victory the Reichstag burned to the ground. The accused Arsonist Ernst Rhom was quickly convicted and executed.

    However the shock of the fire and his right wing connections provided the cover for the communists to force Hindenburg to pass a series of emergency laws which quickly turned on him and forced out the aging but militantly right wing president out in favor of Ernst Togler the recently appointed chancellor. With the powers of both offices and with civil liberties suspended the communist moved rapidly to ban, suppress and persecute the leadership of all other parties.

    The army threatened to intervene supported by the members of the various freikorps and civil war loomed. However in an impassioned address to the army Tolger managed a remarkable feat and convinced the army and much of the population that it was not Stalin who was a threat, but France. After all it was France who had troops on German soil, who has pressed for the ruinous reparations, who took the Saarlands coal even if taking it mean women and children freezing to death.

    With the army at bay at least for now, the communist moved on the junkers and industrial concerns like I.G. Farben. This move was widely supported by populace who wanted employment and stable prices. With the army bowing out the junkers who were the last visible right wing hold outs were quickly dispossessed. But the army was not forgotten. In mid 1934 a young officer of French Huguenot decent was arrested and accused of being a spy for France. In his confession he named a member of the general staff. While the colonel accused should have had an impeccable record of loyalty the communist investigation turned up a Belgian mistress and a strange relationship with a Bavarian Catholic named Himmler, plus strange cash deposits in his accounts. This was enough to start a witch hunt and before the army could re-act its core of older Prussian generals was relieved to make way for a new generation of "modern" Germans. Eager to avoid their mentors fate and equally eager to get one of the new command billets several officers quickly sided with the communists in a very timely career move. Arming them were Mainstein, Rommel, Hausser.

    The communists next move stunned the world and almost brought war... almost. In November 1934 the communist nationalized the banks of Germany and turned them into simple sites of deposit. All excess funds above a surprisingly low limit were seized, as were all foreign assets held in German banks including balance of payment transfers to France and UK. The communist announced that the seized assets totaled triple what most had thought was held.

    Britain and France both threatened to invade and Italy and Poland actually began mobilization until Tolger asked for Soviet help. Stalin quickly announced that 40 divisions were en-route. Since the most direct route was through Poland, Poland's plans to wage war on Germany quickly fell apart. This left Mussolini as the only European leader willing to fight Germany. However Britain and France were too scared of the ghosts of the last war and quickly settled the issue by declaring the reparations over and the seized assets as just remuneration. This added to international financial woes, but it avoided war.

    But the threat of war gave the KDP the cover it needed to re-arm. The massive windfall which many suspected was made up of whole cloth was abl;e to finance a massive expansion of the Duetschvolkheer. Soon Soviet designs like the BT-3 and T-26 were rolling off German assembly lines alongside some native weapons like the MG34 and the venerable Mauser K98.

    The VolksLuftwaffe was also soon created equipped initially with Soviet supplied Polikarov I-5 bi-plane fighters but all German designs were on the drawing board. Not to be outdone, the German shipyards were soon working extra shifts building submarines. No fixation of capitol ships, likely because Stalin would not permit Germany to have a larger surface fleet than the Soviet union.

    The weakness of western leaders to act gave the communists in Austria freedom to act and they soon toppled the Austrian government and petitioned for inclusion in a new Union of German Socialist Republics (GUSR). This was quickly achieved and then Tolger suddenly died. Many believe it was a Soviet coup because several other senior German communists: Nuemann, Remmele, Schulte and Sherbert all quickly retired and faded from view at least for awhile. The new head of the German state was Wilhemn Pieck was was named as president of the German Politburo. However most observers believe that the real power not controlled from the Kremlin was in the hands of Walter Ulbricht.

    The fall of Austria which went by without so much as a murmur from England or France, Italy having since gotten tied up in Ethiopia seemed to herald the fall the traditional Republican ideals or so said a Spanish colonel taking umbrage over his nations attempts to deal with the Germans. Franco and his Republicans quickly gained control of Spanish North Africa and with covert British and French help was able to land an army on Spain's southern coast.

    Over time the Spanish civil war would see volunteers from many countries. the USSR and GUSR supported the government while Britain, France, and Italy supported Franco. The war revealed several things which likely caused the conflagration that would follow.

    First the communist tanks were markedly superior to most Spanish tanks which were based on either the French Renault FT-17 or the British Vickers 6 ton. Neither of which could compete with the T-26 in terms of firepower. The T-26 was itself a development of the Vickers 6 ton, but a radical one. The French response was to provide large numbers of R35 tanks to Franco. This tank was virtually immune to the communist tanks. The T-26 didn't have a powerful enough gun, enough armor or the mobility to survive and the BT series designed to be a cavalry tank and not deployed until after the R35's introduction were ill suited to the war in Spain and as a result Franco was able to gain the initiative and he never gave it back. By early 1938 the communists abandoned the Spanish government in Madrid.

    The war finally convinced the UK to begin its own re-armament, principally in the air. One area where the communists had not lost was the air. The Soviet I-15 and then I-16 were superior to Western fighters. However in late 1937 the first all German fighter entered the war. The Mep-10-9 (Mechanical Equipment Plant 10- design number 9 was a sleek low wing all metal monoplane fighter using a stolen copy of a British inline engine. Nothing in the air could even come close.

    The French began a desultory development program to match, but believed that their combination of the Maginot line and superior tanks made them invulnerable to communist attack. While this was an undeniably defensive posture, the words coming out of Paris were very much aggressive in nature. This boldness combined with the twin British bulldogs of Chamberlain and Churchill convinced Czechoslovakia to try and make an alliance before the growing communist movement among the German minority toppled the government or lead to war. Bold behind their own fortress line, armed with their own world class tanks and armed with British and French assurances the Czechs began a brutal purge of communists and suppression of the minority German population.

    The GUSR threatened war and was supported by the USSR and Stalin.This time however things when differently. Surprised by the arrival of 40 divisions a few years earlier Romania and Hungary had both acceded to Soviet territorial demands and Bulgaria had quickly entered into a Friendship Pact with both the GUSR and USSR. This gave the communists the ability to outflank the Czechs if they were willing to march through other obviously pacifistic countries.

    The only barrier was Poland, who despite her earlier betrayal had been enticed back into an alliance with France. The large Polish army was the brake on communist aspirations. Polish Hussars were portrayed in the English papers as heroic guardians of liberalism. The vulnerability of horseflesh to machine gun bullets seemingly forgotten. A rough stalemate a phony war of words developed.

    In part the standoff in Europe had to do with Developments in Asia. Japan and USSR clashed in 1938 and Japan clashed again and again with Mao's Chinese Communist Party. The clashes resulted in a shocking Soviet defeat at Khalkhiln Ghol. During the Spanish civil war the British had decided to renew the Anglo-Japanese alliance. The promise of oil and technology, as well as a freehand in China was the price. The Japanese now feeling they had a secure border deployed overwhelming air power in response to a Soviet attack by Zhukov. What was verging on a Soviet victory fell apart under the onslaught of a 1000 plane armada.

    Unwilling to import the Mep 10-9 from the GUSR lest it be seen as a sign of weakness. Stalin decided to go on the defensive in Asia and concentrate once again on Europe. Due to the purges it took some time to get the Soviet military which had been shifting Eastward to shift again to the West. The target now was not some worthless chunks of Mongolia, but the linchpins of Western Imperialist Resistance- Poland and Czechoslovakia.

    On September 1, 1939 the GUSR invaded both countries. Against Poland were committed most of the GUSR's mobile and air forces while against the Czechs infantry remained the order of the day. The Czech fortresses held up well, but the Poles got smashed by what the Germans were calling Blitzkrieg. Poland quickly asked for help but France with its loud bark but timid deployments replied that they had already dispatched troops to Czechoslovakia via Italy and would have to wait on the arrival of the BEF.

    Britain duly declared war and Churchill at the behest of Chamberlain sought answers from the Soviets as to their involvement. Stalin replied that it was a German-Polish argument, not a Russian one. Churchill took this to mean the USSR was going to let the GUSR gut itself in order to preserve Soviet dominance. This information was relayed to Warsaw who saw it as an opportunity to shift forces from the East to try and contain the German penetrations.

    On 17 September, Stalin made his move and the Red Army crossed the Polish frontier. By 6 October Poland was gone and the two communist superpowers were territorially united. The fall of Poland quickly caused the collapse of the Czech effort as well and a communist puppet government was soon installed. The invasion of Poland was the cassus beli for the UK vs Germany and on the 17th against the USSR as well. France followed suit joined quickly by Italy and then Japan.

    However the war ended up causing the collapse of one of the British bulldogs. Churchill, once again in charge of the admiralty was held to blame for the shortage of escorts as a fleet of over 100 German u-boats ravaged British shipping. There was a very real danger that the UK would be starved out this time. Even the diversion of French, Japanese and Italian destroyers could only slow the onslaught. Unless the US could be brought into the war Blightly might well lose, and lose Europe in so doing.

    This is the situation on jan 1, 1940..... HAVE FUN

  • #2
    man, if USSR attacks then she is toast.

    the issue with the germans was that they could never get at all of the soviet formations-- always more hanging in reserve, and german intelligence was horrible. also as the germans went deeper into russia, geography expanded so that the germans had to cover more and more space with fewer and fewer troops. that won't be the case if the soviets decide to wade into germany. it'll allow all the german operational/tactical strengths to come to the fore, and ameriolize a lot of the strategic missteps the germans took in OTL.

    also, with a USSR attack you can wave good-bye to lend-lease, which is hell on the mobility aspects of deep battle. BTW, france and UK had a secret plan to attack the USSR in such a scenario. it was sort of lame but it was there.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    • #3
      Then all of us would have been toast.Doesn't matter what Stalin doesn't get from Lend-Lease.He doesn't lose what he lost in 1941.By late 1940 there will be many new Soviet Republics,many tens of millions dead or dying.By 1943 at the very latest,Eurasia and Africa would be Soviet.The Cold war would have lasted another half a century,until the inherent weakness of Communism would have led to a collapse.Most of the world would have looked like North Korea.The good part is that there would have been no demographic boom in the present 3d world.They would have starved to death and all those capable of feeding them would have also starved long ago.Another one is that I would have never been born,in case you dislike me.

      The scenario is faulty however,but I'm not going to jump Z on this.However charismatic Adolf was,he wasn't alone.Anti communism in Europe wasn't his doing,there were significant forces opposing the red plague.
      Those who know don't speak
      He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Mihais View Post
        Then all of us would have been toast.Doesn't matter what Stalin doesn't get from Lend-Lease.He doesn't lose what he lost in 1941.By late 1940 there will be many new Soviet Republics,many tens of millions dead or dying.By 1943 at the very latest,Eurasia and Africa would be Soviet.The Cold war would have lasted another half a century,until the inherent weakness of Communism would have led to a collapse.Most of the world would have looked like North Korea.The good part is that there would have been no demographic boom in the present 3d world.They would have starved to death and all those capable of feeding them would have also starved long ago.Another one is that I would have never been born,in case you dislike me.
        what cold war ? :confu:

        In a few words: there is no such thing as Soviet technology. Almost all — perhaps 90-95 percent — came directly or indirectly from the United States and its allies. In effect the United States and the NATO countries have built the Soviet Union. Its industrial and its military capabilities. This massive construction job has taken 50 years. Since the Revolution in 1917. It has been carried out through trade and the sale of plants, equipment and technical assistance

        Antony C. Sutton
        J'ai en marre.

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        • #5
          NKVD,MGB,NKGB,KGB,GRU.What is this series of letters?

          All that's needed for a cold war is couple of fellows helping put a nuclear warhead on an ICMB.The designers of said rockets,German,Russian or other nationality were happy to work extra-time for an extra half a bread and the feeling of not feeling a cold metal barrel in the back of the head.
          Those who know don't speak
          He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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          • #6
            no actually the point was to provide a counterbalance to German dominance on European continent either it was lead by the kaiser or fuhrer,
            with Germany ceased to be a threat the next enemy , that needed a counterbalance , became the SU.
            J'ai en marre.

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            • #7
              Yes.So?
              Those who know don't speak
              He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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              • #8
                I do not assume that SU would win in 1939.
                J'ai en marre.

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                • #9
                  If the Soviets attack France wins the war by default. In order to have a chance at beating the Soviets in 1940, the already thin defenses on the Western border would be thinned out further, with French intelligence at some point being able to convince Petain to move further than just 10 km onto German soil. Use the mobile forces already arrayed in Belgium to strike east towards Cologne and roll up the Rhine valley from there while infantry supporting the Maginot at Bitche and west of it move north to occupy the Saar area and Southern Palatinate.

                  At minimum, France and the UK would be able to push the Germans back across the Rhine within weeks, putting the German military-industral complex out of operation long-term as the Ruhr area comes into easy air strike range, the BASF plant at Ludwigshafen is seized and the second large chemical complex in Germany at Höchst falls within artillery range.

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                  • #10
                    Communist advantages

                    Massive production, abundant oil, iron, coal, combined population of around 250 million people, about 600 standing divisions, only 2 main languages, no exposed sea lanes, gobs of strategic depth huge air force and a modern air force, 23,000 tanks.

                    Communist problems- Soviet wariness of the German successes, German wariness of massive numbers of Soviet troops in Germany. Red Army bumbling due to the purge, most of the communist tanks are markedly inferior, not enough trucks, low war stocks of ammunition, at war on multiple fronts

                    Western advantages, powerful surface fleet, better tanks overall, better pilots overall than the Russians. Larger potential manpower pool. Economic advantage from an area even more secure than factories located behind the Urals.

                    Western problems, French faith in the fortress. Lack of real Japanese armor, the US is still officially neutral so direct armaments and war loans are out. Active communist 5th column. While current tanks like the Souma S-35 and Matilda II are light years better than the PZbT-5's and PzT-26's used by the Germans, they are an evolutionary dead end. unbeknownst to all the Soviets have begun production of the T-34 and the Kv-1m39 is already in service. Finally the allies do not have a unified war plan. France hates Germany but is scared to bleed, Mussolini hates communists and is itching for a fight, too bad he is the only man in Italy who is, Britain wants to preserve her empire but do it on the cheap and Japan wants an empire regardless of the cost. The potential ace up the allies sleeve just wants to be left alone.

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                    • #11
                      please read the scenario, it is not stalin attacking hitler, it is a communist germany and ussr attacking the west
                      Last edited by zraver; 27 Mar 12,, 22:16.

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                      • #12
                        the soviet armed forces in 1939 had 110 infantry divisions and 44 cavalry div + 25 tank brigades compared to 303 div in 1941.

                        as for the west the 30 div on the border can buy enough time for germany to mobilize.
                        J'ai en marre.

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                        • #13
                          C'mon man,read Z.He said USSR and Germany vs the world.

                          Btw,you do realise that Red Army outnumbered the Wehrmacht by 2 to 1 in real history.Both had no experience in 1939,but this is also the Red Army before the expansion.Meaning a greater proportion of trained officers.Trained in the Deep Battle and Deep Operations I mean.
                          Those who know don't speak
                          He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by zraver View Post
                            please read the scenario, it is not stalin attacking hitler, it is a communist germany and ussr attacking the west[/size]
                            in that case the french are toast...
                            J'ai en marre.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                              Btw,you do realise that Red Army outnumbered the Wehrmacht by 2 to 1 in real history.
                              1940 figures are 1.5 to 1.
                              J'ai en marre.

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