PDA

View Full Version : Shooting at Jewish School Leaves Rabbi, 3 Kids Dead in France



bigross86
19 Mar 12,, 15:27
Shooting at Jewish School Leaves Rabbi, 3 Kids Dead in France (http://gma.yahoo.com/shooting-jewish-school-leaves-rabbi-3-kids-dead-120914121--abc-news.html)


By CHRISTOPHE SCHPOLIANSKY and NICK SCHIFRIN | Good Morning America – 2 hours 11 minutes ago

A shooter opened fire on a Jewish school in Toulouse, France, this morning just as students arrived, killing four, including a 30-year-old rabbi and his two children, officials said.

The shooter, who arrived and fled from the Ozar Hatorah school on a scooter or a motorcycle, "shot at everything he could see," according to local prosecutor Michel Valet.

The dead included Rabbi Jonathan Sandler, who taught at the school, his 3- and 6-year-old sons Gabriel and Arieh, and the school headmaster's 8-year-old daughter, according to the Israeli newspaper Ynet. Sandler, a French-Israeli national, had left Israel last September to begin a two year teaching stint at the school, according to the Le Parisien newspaper.

A 17-year-old and two other students were seriously wounded.

Authorities are investigating whether the shooting is linked to two other incidents where a shooter targeted his victims while driving a motorcycle in the same area.
Last Sunday, a paratrooper out of uniform was killed by a gunman on a motorbike outside of a gym in a suburb of Toulouse.

On Thursday, two soldiers were killed and a third wounded by a shooter on a
scooter as they used an ATM in Montauban, about 30 miles away.

The same caliber weapon – a .45 handgun, referred to in France as an 11.43 – was used in the shootings last week and this morning, police officials told local
media.

"It is too early to link the different shootings, but there are similarities between these shootings: same modus operandi, same area," French Interior Ministry spokesman Pierre-Henry Brandet told ABC News. "The shooter in all these cases was very determined."

Witnesses of today's shooting described a horrific scene at the drop-off point for nursery- and primary-age students. The killer arrived with two weapons, and one jammed, according to AFP.

"I saw two people dead in front of the school, an adult and a child ... It was a vision of horror, the bodies of two small children," a father whose child attends the school told RTL radio. "I did not find my son. Apparently he fled when he saw what happened. How can they attack something as sacred as a school?"

"Just because we are different doesn't mean we should be killed," one student's father, in tears, told the local newspaper Sud Quest from outside the school.

One student described how the shooting began just as she arrived for her morning prayers. "We were really afraid," she told Sud Quest. She said after police arrived, the children sat down, were given water, and prayed together.

The killer arrived at the school carrying two weapons, including the same .45 caliber gun that killed one of the soldiers in Thursday's attack, according to the Toulouse-based La Depeche newspaper.

Police say they have locked Toulouse down as they hunt for the killer, and the government tightened security at all religious sites in France, particularly Jewish schools. Sixty police officers, including anti-terrorist police, are helping with this investigation after they had already begun examining the attacks on the troops.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who is running for re-election, immediately flew to Toulouse, which is about 425 miles south of Paris.

"Whatever happens," he said, "faced with this kind of toll, we can say that the French Republic as a whole has been hit by this appalling tragedy."

USSWisconsin
19 Mar 12,, 16:08
They need to take this guy to a dark, dank place and spend some time killing him. I would think a couple years of slow killing was in order for a special case like this.

bigross86
19 Mar 12,, 16:18
Because the person is also suspected of shooting soldiers last week, there is a chance that this isn't JUST an anti-Semitic thing, but yes, this guy does need killing, and quick

zraver
20 Mar 12,, 03:25
Because the person is also suspected of shooting soldiers last week, there is a chance that this isn't JUST an anti-Semitic thing, but yes, this guy does need killing, and quick

100% agree, but its even money for right wing fascist or jihadist since its France. But it may be different actors or a madman as well. Killing soldiers implies and act of war by a revolutionary group, while shooting up a Jewish religious school implies Islamic or neo-nazi terrorism... I say this becuase of the Manson Family, they proved that sometimes the players on the field are from a different game entirely.

kato
20 Mar 12,, 07:09
Killing soldiers implies and act of war by a revolutionary group, while shooting up a Jewish religious school implies Islamic or neo-nazi terrorism...
Two of the three dead soldiers were of visible North African descent, the third was a mulatto from Guadeloupe, the seriously wounded one was black. French authorities now consider the series to have a racist and anti-semitic background; up to the shooting at the Jewish school this detail was considered irrelevant, as the only thing connecting the victims was that they were soldiers.

The security lock-down in and around Toulouse btw isn't limited to Jewish schools and sites, but Muslim schools, mosques etc are also getting more protection.

zraver
20 Mar 12,, 17:00
Two of the three dead soldiers were of visible North African descent, the third was a mulatto from Guadeloupe, the seriously wounded one was black. French authorities now consider the series to have a racist and anti-semitic background; up to the shooting at the Jewish school this detail was considered irrelevant, as the only thing connecting the victims was that they were soldiers.

The security lock-down in and around Toulouse btw isn't limited to Jewish schools and sites, but Muslim schools, mosques etc are also getting more protection.

RW fascist then...

S2
21 Mar 12,, 05:09
Damned shame. My condolences to the families and friends of those lost and prayers for the quick recovery of the injured. May God have mercy on that miserable fcuk's soul because, were it I that caught him, there'd be none.

diablo49
21 Mar 12,, 10:19
Turns out its a Jihadist

Killed children for justice...:puck:
Suspect in School Shooting in France Expected to Surrender | Europe | English (http://www.voanews.com/english/news/europe/Suspect-in-School-Shooting-in-France-Expected-to-Surrender-143612456.html)

hope he is captured alive, then falls off the media radar very quickly...

dave lukins
21 Mar 12,, 10:51
At a stand off at the moment and negotiators will be hoping it ends with taking him into custody.

BBC News

"Mohammed Merah, the man believed to be the gunman on a scooter who killed seven people in south-western France, is a 24-year-old French citizen of Algerian extraction. Before the shootings in Toulouse and Montauban, he was known to the French authorities because he had a criminal record for non-terrorist crimes. According to the French authorities, he said he had sought to avenge Palestinian children and to attack the French army because of its foreign interventions".

MIKEMUN
21 Mar 12,, 11:04
The BBC was pushing the Far Right extremist angle pretty hard for the past few days. Now that the suspected gunman has been identified, they have backed off from making any kinds of speculations.

Doktor
21 Mar 12,, 11:11
Hope the French will capture him alive, without any more casualties and leave him alone in a dark room with the French version of Beria.

Bigfella
21 Mar 12,, 12:46
This whole thing has just been terrible. First off duty soldiers, then children. Shocking, sad & awful.

Much like the Brevik murders, this event has embarrassed those who jumped to conclusions too quickly. The pattern was open to interpretation. My own betting was actually 50/50 muslim extremist/right wing extremist. Beyond the tragedy of the murders this is going to become nasty politics pretty quickly. France is in the middle of a particularly vicious election & this will rapidly become ammunition. More's the pity.

As for the suspect. If he is the man in question I would simply drop him off at the local military base & let them deal with him.

MIKEMUN
21 Mar 12,, 13:22
This whole thing has just been terrible. First off duty soldiers, then children. Shocking, sad & awful.

Much like the Brevik murders, this event has embarrassed those who jumped to conclusions too quickly. The pattern was open to interpretation. My own betting was actually 50/50 muslim extremist/right wing extremist. Beyond the tragedy of the murders this is going to become nasty politics pretty quickly. France is in the middle of a particularly vicious election & this will rapidly become ammunition. More's the pity.

As for the suspect. If he is the man in question I would simply drop him off at the local military base & let them deal with him.

It is sad that grieving families will now be dragged into the spotlight for photo ops with politicians who couldn't care less what they are going through, as long as they get that bump in the polls.

dave lukins
21 Mar 12,, 13:51
Beyond the tragedy of the murders this is going to become nasty politics pretty quickly. France is in the middle of a particularly vicious election & this will rapidly become ammunition.

Some will be rubbing their hands with glee. Marine LePen, the daughter of Jean Marie LePen and likely the next leader of the National Front will as you say use this as ammo in all the forthcoming rallies and speeches.

kato
22 Mar 12,, 07:54
Le Pens candidacy - she didn't have the necessary support votes to even run until a week ago - will only hurt Sarkozy and result in Hollande becoming new president, which will result in the rest of Europe probably finally ridding itself of the conservative plague we've had in the offices the last couple years. Rejoice!

Marine le Pen already is the leader of FN btw. Her father is only honorary chairman.

Bigfella
22 Mar 12,, 08:11
It is sad that grieving families will now be dragged into the spotlight for photo ops with politicians who couldn't care less what they are going through, as long as they get that bump in the polls.

One of the more disgusting political sights this week was of Le Pen attending the funerals of men who, because of their race, she doesn't actually want as French citizens. Other than that there seemed to be a brief lull in the politicking, but I am not enogh of an optimist to believe that will last.

Bigfella
22 Mar 12,, 08:13
Le Pens candidacy - she didn't have the necessary support votes to even run until a week ago - will only hurt Sarkozy and result in Hollande becoming new president, which will result in the rest of Europe probably finally ridding itself of the conservative plague we've had in the offices the last couple years. Rejoice!

Marine le Pen already is the leader of FN btw. Her father is only honorary chairman.

Kato,

Is that necessarily how it will play out? I am no expert in French electoral law, but if no candidate gets a majority isn't there a runoff? I'm assuming Le Pen won't get more votes tha nSarkozy & that very little (if any) of her vote will bleed to the left in a runoff. If these events push a few voters from the Socialists to Sarkozy, might it give him a chance in a runoff?

kato
22 Mar 12,, 10:49
If these events push a few voters from the Socialists to Sarkozy, might it give him a chance in a runoff?
Current projection:
first election - Sarkozy 28.5%, Hollande 27.0%, Le Pen 16.0%, Bayrou 11%, Melenchon 10%
runoff - Hollande 54.4%, Sarkozy 45.6%

Hollande (Socialists, social democrat) essentially gets the voter share from Bayrou (Democrats, centrist) and Melenchon (Left Front, communist) in the run-off, Sarkozy (Popular Party, gaullist/conservative) the voter share from Le Pen (National Front, nazis).

dave lukins
22 Mar 12,, 12:19
Hope the French will capture him alive, without any more casualties and leave him alone in a dark room with the French version of Beria.

It's not going to happen...he's dead after a shoot out

Doktor
22 Mar 12,, 12:37
It's not going to happen...he's dead after a shoot out

Chicken!

dave lukins
22 Mar 12,, 13:22
Chicken!

At least he is saving the tax payer millions of €. No doubt the Lawyers and human rights brigade are a bit peeved about that. It would have been better justice if he was taken to Court, sentenced, then spent the rest of his days in jail.

astralis
22 Mar 12,, 13:29
dave,

dunno, french police don't have a good reputation for gentleness in questioning. too bad they didn't catch the guy and make him squeal like a stuck pig; i'm curious as to how the guy got his hands on so many weapons...especially when newspaper reports that french intelligence was supposedly tracking the guy after he made 2(!) stops to afghanistan.

kato
22 Mar 12,, 13:51
i'm curious as to how the guy got his hands on so many weapons...
It's France. The place where the number of illegal guns exceeds that of legal guns nearly tenfold.

Doktor
22 Mar 12,, 14:01
dave,

dunno, french police don't have a good reputation for gentleness in questioning. too bad they didn't catch the guy and make him squeal like a stuck pig; i'm curious as to how the guy got his hands on so many weapons...especially when newspaper reports that french intelligence was supposedly tracking the guy after he made 2(!) stops to afghanistan.

French police would have (IIRC) 48h to question him before HR and lawyers come to the scene. Wonder if that'd be enough of a punishment.

He was also in Pakistan on those 2 tours.

FJV
22 Mar 12,, 20:43
French police would have (IIRC) 48h to question him before HR and lawyers come to the scene. Wonder if that'd be enough of a punishment.

He was also in Pakistan on those 2 tours.

He would likely fall under French terrorism laws, which would make things much different from what is implied here.

PS
I have the same feelings for this guy as for the guy in Afghanistan that killed an entire family.

dave lukins
22 Mar 12,, 22:09
french intelligence was supposedly tracking the guy after he made 2(!) stops to afghanistan.

"Afghan security forces detained Merah on Dec. 19, 2007, and he was sentenced to three years in jail for planting bombs in the southern province of Kandahar, the Taliban’s birthplace, Kandahar prison chief Ghulam Faruq said, citing prison documents. Merah escaped along with up to 1,000 prisoners, including 400 Taliban insurgents. At the time of the break a Taliban soldier drove up to the prisons main gate and detonated a truck bomb opening the door"

Did the French have this knowledge and if so why didn't they arrest him? He was planting bombs to kill troops but allowed to travel freely under the noses of French Intelligence. As a convicted bomber he should have at least been arrested and deported back to Afghanistan. Too late now the horse has bolted.

Bigfella
22 Mar 12,, 23:34
"Afghan security forces detained Merah on Dec. 19, 2007, and he was sentenced to three years in jail for planting bombs in the southern province of Kandahar, the Taliban’s birthplace, Kandahar prison chief Ghulam Faruq said, citing prison documents. Merah escaped along with up to 1,000 prisoners, including 400 Taliban insurgents. At the time of the break a Taliban soldier drove up to the prisons main gate and detonated a truck bomb opening the door"

Did the French have this knowledge and if so why didn't they arrest him? He was planting bombs to kill troops but allowed to travel freely under the noses of French Intelligence. As a convicted bomber he should have at least been arrested and deported back to Afghanistan. Too late now the horse has bolted.

I beleive they did know & that he was know to the security services, who were supposed to be 'monitoring' him. I'm not sure quite what thet means, but it clearly isn't very effective. There are going to be some awkward questions to answer here.

Bigfella
22 Mar 12,, 23:36
Current projection:
first election - Sarkozy 28.5%, Hollande 27.0%, Le Pen 16.0%, Bayrou 11%, Melenchon 10%
runoff - Hollande 54.4%, Sarkozy 45.6%

Hollande (Socialists, social democrat) essentially gets the voter share from Bayrou (Democrats, centrist) and Melenchon (Left Front, communist) in the run-off, Sarkozy (Popular Party, gaullist/conservative) the voter share from Le Pen (National Front, nazis).

Thanks Kato. I haven't been watching closely so I wasn't aware of the left wing parties.

kato
23 Mar 12,, 06:44
As a convicted bomber he should have at least been arrested and deported back to Afghanistan.
He's a French citizen, born and raised in Toulouse. No European state other than maybe the UK would deport an own citizen to Afghanistan or any other nation.

In fact, only that Afghan prison chief claim he's a convicted bomber - for whatever reason. The official line from all other authorities is that he was arrested by Afghan police when crossing the border from Pakistan into Kandahar province half a year ago, and was handed over to US forces who deported him to France. The DCRI (French intelligence) was aware of this, and had even had a number of meetings with the guy back in November to scope out why he tried to enter Afghanistan.

MIKEMUN
24 Mar 12,, 08:43
And the French are about to criminalize visiting "hate" websites.

Firestorm
25 Mar 12,, 00:50
Apparently the shooter Mohammed Merah's brother is a sick twisted SOB as well.

Mohammed Merah's brother: I’m proud he executed those 3 kids (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4215262/Im-proud-my-brother-executed-those-3-kids.html)

dave lukins
25 Mar 12,, 01:13
Apparently the shooter Mohammed Merah's brother is a sick twisted SOB as well.

Mohammed Merah's brother: I’m proud he executed those 3 kids (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4215262/Im-proud-my-brother-executed-those-3-kids.html)

He is, but the coward didn't back up his SOB brother and stay until the end.

dave lukins
25 Mar 12,, 01:16
He's a French citizen, born and raised in Toulouse

We have his kind in the UK..most don't speak english and hate the country. ;)

Parihaka
25 Mar 12,, 02:54
Toulouse killings: in France or elsewhere, let's not play politics with murder (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/mar/25/nick-cohen-toulouse-shootings)

Who would want to kill Arab soldiers serving in a western army, a rabbi and three Jewish children? The white far right or the Islamist religious right? The inability of leftists and conservatives to reply "both" explains half the political hypocrisy of our time.

When they thought the killer was a neo-Nazi, French and British leftists were at one. The "root cause" of the slaughter was the "dog whistle" politics of the right. Desperate for the votes of National Front supporters in the presidential election, Nicolas Sarkozy suggested that immigrant butchers were duping decent French men and women into eating food produced by barbarous methods. The labelling of halal and kosher meat was an urgent political priority, he said, and went on to demand tighter controls on immigration.

Determined not to be outflanked, Marine Le Pen (daughter of Jean-Marie) complained about a "dictatorship of minorities" obliterating French identity. Her National Front and Sarkozy's traditional conservatives, created a xenophobic atmosphere, the left alleged. A psychopathic fascist smelt the hate in the air and killed Muslims and Jews.

Asking politicians and journalists to keep quiet until they know what they are talking about is demanding too much – many would never speak again. But you can suggest with as much politeness as you can muster that a fear of looking ridiculous or some vague sense of self-preservation should stop them pontificating until a rolling news story is over.

The killer turned out not to be a tattooed white thug who had hung around the fringes of Le Pen rallies but an Islamist thug who had hung around the fringes of jihadist Islam. The unsubstantiated accusations of the left boomeranged back through the air to smack it in the face. Since the police revealed the murderer's identity, Sarkozy has overtaken François Hollande in the polls. He looks a revived man rather than a loser. Worse, Marine Le Pen, who wondered whether the killer was a member of her own party, now claims that the events vindicated her attacks on Muslims.

The right is making the unsubstantiated smears now. It accuses "soft" socialists of failing to support the tough anti-terrorism measures that could save lives.

Notice how popular murder is: how seductive and how useful. Neither left nor right wanted Jewish children and Arab soldiers dead, of course. But both were willing to pick up their corpses and use them as weapons in a propaganda war. Each side charged the other with fostering a climate in which terrorism can thrive. The right opposed Islamists and accused the left of collusion. The left opposed neo-fascists and accused the right of collusion. Neither understood that the similarities between the Islamists and neo-fascists are more important than the differences.

Neo-fascists want to kill Jews and Muslims; Islamists want to kill Jews. One of Europe's most successful exports to the Middle East was the Nazi conspiracy theory, and it flourishes like a toxic weed to this day. But Islamists also want to terrorise Muslims because the first aim of any dictatorial movement is control of "their" people. In the case of radical Islam, its adherents enforce taboos by policing the behaviour of women, and murdering homosexuals, apostates and members of rival sects.



You do not have to look at the assassinations in Pakistan or the tyranny in Iran to see Islamist persecution in action. Across Europe, liberal Muslims and ex-Muslims are living in fear because fanatics want to punish them for speaking out of turn. The Dutch artist Sooreh Hera had to go into hiding after satirising Iran's judicial murder of homosexuals. The brilliant and beautiful Deeyah – the "Muslim Madonna" – first fled her native Norway and then fled Britain to escape fundamentalist intimidation. Terrified gallery owners pulled the work of the Moroccan-Dutch artist Rachid Ben Ali because he had responded to the murder of Theo van Gogh and death threats against Ayaan Hirsi Ali by producing pertinent pictures of "hate imams" spewing bombs and excrement.

Above all, both versions of extremism want to punish "traitors". It is a sign of how political commentary trundles like a freight train down the tracks that journalists could assure the public that Mohamed Merah was the polar opposite of Anders Breivik, when the differences between them were merely superficial. Breivik might have raved about immigrants turning Europe into "Eurabia" – a colonised outpost of the Muslim world – but when he murdered last year his victims were not immigrants but young members of the Norwegian Labour party, traitors to their race and culture.

Breivik's mentality matched that of Parviz Khan, a bloodthirsty fanatic from Birmingham. At his trial in 2008, the police provided tapes of Khan saying that he would behead a British Muslim soldier like "you cut a pig". Then he would "put it on a stick and say, this is to all Muslims, [you] want to join the kuffar army, this is what will happen to you". In his study of the case, Shiraz Maher of King's College London said that most terrorists spread fear indiscriminately. Khan and his fellow plotters were different. They aimed to terrify Muslims who choose to integrate, identify themselves as British and serve British institutions; to let them know that it was an act of "betrayal" to support their own country.

After the Khan case, no one had the right to be surprised that an Islamist could murder North African soldiers in Toulouse. That many were surprised, that they persisted with the notion that the white far right and the Islamist far right were strangers rather than twins, told you that the delusion serves a political purpose.

For conservatives, opposition to radical Islam and indulgence of the white far right allows them to ignore the persistence of racism, most notably in France. They want to comfort their voters by telling them that whatever charges their critics throw at them, they are not as misogynist, homophobic or anti-Semitic as their Islamist enemies are. For leftists, opposition to the white far right and indulgence of radical Islam allows them to hide the descent of their programme of identity politics into squalor and shame, most notably in Britain. As long as they have the British National party and English Defence League to fight, leftists can forget about their failures to help liberal Muslims and ex-Muslims in their struggles against theocratic power.

Many on both sides will not admit that the motives and targets of totalitarian movements are often identical. After what Europe went through in the 20th century, their ignorance is beyond disgraceful. It is astonishing.

Tronic
25 Mar 12,, 10:59
I beleive they did know & that he was know to the security services, who were supposed to be 'monitoring' him. I'm not sure quite what thet means, but it clearly isn't very effective. There are going to be some awkward questions to answer here.

Maybe they were hoping that he'd lead them to bag other local fish. Unfortunately, he wasn't as smart as they took him to be.

Tronic
25 Mar 12,, 11:14
Toulouse killings: in France or elsewhere, let's not play politics with murder (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/mar/25/nick-cohen-toulouse-shootings)

I have always maintained and argued profoundly in favour of the view that there is no difference between the Islamic right and, as my discussions on Indian boards, the Hindu far right; with the Hindu far right being easily replaced by any other far right groups in the world, including the slowly creeping up Christian far right in Europe. These right wing extremists feed off each other to grow stronger with their mutual hatred and intolerance. The Islamic right wing extremists have been a boon for their far right brethren the world over.

Double Edge
25 Mar 12,, 12:00
I have always maintained and argued profoundly in favour of the view that there is no difference between the Islamic right and, as my discussions on Indian boards, the Hindu far right; with the Hindu far right being easily replaced by any other far right groups in the world, including the slowly creeping up Christian far right in Europe.
Agree, i've noticed a similarity in their thinking. Course when you point this out lots of sparks start to fly :biggrin:

Pari's article could very easily have been written to an Indian context.


These right wing extremists feed off each other to grow stronger with their mutual hatred and intolerance. The Islamic right wing extremists have been a boon for their far right brethren the world over.
They hijack the conversation and monopolise it for their own ends by using emotional triggers. This is why i continue to beleive anytime somebody tries to scare or piss you off then you're being set up for a con.

Mihais
25 Mar 12,, 13:58
The Islamic right wing extremists have been a boon for their far right brethren the world over.

No Islamic extremists or otherwise without the European left.The left also has a fertile ground.But its true a battlefield is a very fertile piece of land.Paradoxes of life.

USSWisconsin
25 Mar 12,, 19:57
He told cops: "I am very proud of my brother. I regret nothing for him and approve of what he did."

Hmmm - sounds like he needs slow keelhaulin' after the flogging around the fleet. :pari: He rates some chum and sharks in the water too. :puck:

Tronic
26 Mar 12,, 02:49
No Islamic extremists or otherwise without the European left.

I don't know much about the European left; but what is it about the left which gets Islamic extremist's goat? Too much idealized human equality than what the Islamists are able to bear? :biggrin:


The left also has a fertile ground.But its true a battlefield is a very fertile piece of land.Paradoxes of life.

Does it? I seem to be of the view that the left is loosing out to the right wing extremists because most people seem to feel that the only counter to right wing "A" is to respond with a right wing of their own, right wing "B". The middle east has been a good example where the left wing socialists have been loosing ground for decades to the Right. Ironically, Assad seems to be one of the last remaining leftists left in the region. With the Muslim brotherhood taking Egypt, I can only cringe at who will possibly replace Assad.

Mihais
26 Mar 12,, 08:24
I can't say I'm right,but my impression is that the left suffered a mutation after WW2,particularly after the 60's.They replaced(or mixed)class struggle with race and religion struggle.Native europeans are the new aristocrats and burgeoise,while the others are the new proletarians.Hence,the more proletarians the better.The fact that some proletarians are rabid Muslims doesn't matter,because they are still against Christianity.I'm speaking strictly in a western Euro context and I'm aware there's a massive simplification.

I don't know if we can apply the usual left and right concepts in the Arab world.They occured in the West when the nation-state appeared.The Arab nation obviously is no nation state and the arab states have the tribe as the main force,just beneath a veneer of western inspired institutions.