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  • F-16C Block 52 vs. Mig-29S

    Which is better and why?

    I would think the F-16C is better at ranges over 10 miles because of the better avionics but would have one hell of a fight in a close in Dogfight.

  • #2
    All about the stick actuator man.

    Comment


    • #3
      ahhhh the F-16C/D vs. the MiG-29S..........

      SA = F-16C
      Range = F-16C
      Payload = F-16C
      Weapons = F-16C
      Radar = F-16C
      Mantianace = F-16C

      I would not call the MiG-29 much of a fighter. It has so far failed and been shot down over 20 times with nothing to say for it's self. About the famous HMS people should remember that the F-16 can use the AIM-132, AIM-9X, IRIS-T and Python 4/5. In BVR it's a joke the AIM-120 has been killing MiG-29s since 1994. The MiG-29 with it's worthless avoinics will probably have no idea the F-16 is in the air much less about to kill it.



      http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archi...july2a_95.html



      "Before coming here, some of our pilots may have thought of the MiG's helmet-mounted sight as an end-all to a BFM fight," explained Lt. Col. Gary West, commander of the 510th. "We have found that it is not as lethal as we had expected.

      "The Fulcrum doesn't have the crisp movements of an F-16," Sparrow continued. "You need to be an octopus in the MiG-29 to work the avionics. Those German pilots have it tough. Just to get a simple lock on and fire a missile may take a half dozen hands-off switches or so. We can do the same with a flick of the thumb while we are looking at the HUD. F-16 pilots also have a significant sight advantage. A couple of hundred feet advantage can make a difference in air-to-air combat; the actual difference is more significant than that. MiG-29 pilots have a tough time checking their six o'clock. Their canopy rail is higher. They can lose sight of us even when flying BFM."

      "Their visibility is not that good," agreed McCoy, one of the other two pilots who enjoyed a spin in the Fulcrum. "Their disadvantage is a real advantage for us. F-16 pilots sit high in the cockpit. All the MiG-29 pilots who sat in our cockpit wanted to look around with the canopy closed. They were impressed that they could turn around and look at the tail and even see the engine can."


      "Besides visibility, I expected better turning performance," McCoy continued. "The MiG-29 is not a continuous nine-g machine like the F-16. I tried to do some things I normally do in an F-16. For example, I tried a high-AOA guns jink. I got the Fulcrum down to about 180 knots and pulled ninety degrees of bank and started pulling heavy g's. I then went to idle and added a little rudder to get the jet to roll with ailerons. The pilot took control away from me in the middle of these maneuvers because the airplane was about to snap. I use the F-16's quick roll rate like this all the time with no problem.

      "I also tried to do a 250-knot loop," McCoy recalled. "I went to mil power and stabilized. As I went nose high, I asked for afterburner. I had to hamfist the airplane a little as I approached the top of the loop. I was still in afterburner at about 15,000 feet and the jet lost control. The nose started slicing left and right. I let go of the stick and the airplane righted itself and went down. It couldn't finish the loop. In the F-16, we can complete an entire loop at 250 knots."

      Like Sparrow, McCoy climbed out of the MiG-29 cockpit feeling better about the F-16, especially its automation. "The biggest instrument in the MiG-29 cockpit is the clock," McCoy said. "It took me a while to understand this. But a large clock is needed to keep track of the time after launching a missile. When they launch a missile, they have to consider their shot range and the type of missile they are shooting and estimate how long it will take to impact before firing. When they take a five-mile Alamo shot, for example, they have to calculate mentally the time required for the missile to reach its target so their radar can illuminate it for the duration. They fire and watch until they know when they can turn away. That procedure is a real disadvantage if they're flying against someone who shot a missile at them at about the same time.

      "F-16 pilots don't have to think about these things," McCoy continued. "We have great automation. When we launch a missile, the airplane performs all the calculations and displays a countdown on the head-up display for us. When we're within ten miles, we want our eyes out of the cockpit looking for flashes or smoke from an adversary. That's why our head-up display is focused to infinity. We can view information without refocusing our eyes to scan the horizon. Inside of ten miles, Fulcrum pilots are moving their hands around flipping about six switches, some they have to look at. I am moving one, maybe two switches, without taking my hands off the throttle and stick."

      German Fulcrum pilots realize the limitations, and advantages, of their aircraft. "If you define an F-16 as a third-generation fighter, it is not fair to speak of the MiG-29 as a third-generation aircraft because of its avionics," said Lt. Col. Manfred Skeries, the deputy commander of the JG-73. "Aerodynamics, now, are something different." Skeries is the former commander of all East German fighter forces and the first German pilot to fly the MiG-29. His comments came after he received his first flight in the F-16.

      "The MiG-29's avionics are a shortcoming," admitted Capt. Michael Raubbach, a Fulcrum pilot of the JG 73. "Its radar-warning and navigational equipment are not up to Western standards. The Russian idea of hands-on throttle and stick is not the same as it is in the West. It is true that we have to look in the cockpit a lot to flip switches. And the way information is provided and the accuracy with which it is provided-in the navigational equipment in particular-doesn't allow full employment in the Western concept.

      "Our visibility is not as good as an F-16 or even an F-15," Raubbach continued. "We can't see directly behind us. We have to look out the side slightly to see behind us, which doesn't allow us to maintain a visual contact and an optimum lift vector at the same time. This shortcoming can be a real problem, especially when flying against an aircraft as small as the F-16. But as a German, I can't complain about the MiG's visibility. The aircraft offers the greatest visibility in our air force."

      "The aircraft was not built for close-in dogfighting, though it is aerodynamically capable of it," Prunk continued. "The East Germans flew it as a point-defense interceptor, like a MiG-21. They were not allowed to max perform the airplane, to explore its capabilities or their own abilities. Sorties lasted about thirty minutes. The airplane was designed to scramble, jettison the tank, go supersonic, shoot its missiles, and go home." This relatively strict operational scenario presents its own limitations. Many of these involve the aircraft's centerline fuel tank. The MiG-29 cannot fly supersonic with the tank attached. Nor can pilots fire the aircraft's 30mm cannon (the tank blocks the shell discharge route) or use its speed brakes. The aircraft is limited to four g's when the tank has fuel remaining. The tank creates some drag and is also difficult to attach and remove. The MiG-29 can carry wing tanks that alleviate many of these shortcomings, but the Luftwaffe has no plans to purchase them from Russia.


      Though aerodynamically adept, the MiG-29's performance is constrained by avionics conforming to Soviet tactical doctrine. The aircraft was designed to rely heavily on a centralized system of ground controllers, which could take control of the aircraft's radar. The system could also land the plane if necessary. "Warsaw Pact pilots were not taught to evaluate a situation as it occurs in the air," Prunk explained. "Pilots were used to a system that made many decisions for them. The aircraft's guidance system had room for only six preprogrammed steerpoints, including three targets. The radio had twenty preselected channels at frequencies unknown to the pilot.

      "When our pilots first arrived here, they almost tripped over themselves because their eyes were glued to the ramp and those MiG-29s," West continued. "After a few days, though, those MiGs became just like any other aircraft. And that's the way it should be."
      To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

      Comment


      • #4
        I have to agree with that assessment.
        I'm sure the Fulcrum has some great attributes but it's kill ratio is um...well, you know.
        Even the greatest pilot will find himself needing massive amounts of training time in the Fulcrum to acclimatize himself with everything he will have to do, whereas the -16 pilot has a great deal of automation to assist him, as the article pointed out.
        On the flip side, the MiG will be easier to procure and support, what with the Russian defense industry practically starving for cash. Can we say "incentives"?
        “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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        • #5
          Who won? The Luftwaffe Migs f***** the F-16s

          Thats also what happened during the Kargil conflict in 1999 when a lone IAF Mig-29 armed with BVRAAMs locked onto 2 PAF F-16s at maximum range sending them fleeing back to base. It was that incident that got the Fulcrums nicknamed the 'Falcon Hunters' in IAF circles. There are more Airforces around the world operating the Fulcrums than the F-16 'Fighting Chicken'. Also Russian aircraft have the ability to field better missiles than American aircraft. The MiG-29's superior speed translates to increased missile launch range which means that, coupled with the Fulcrum's BVR engagement with the IRST/R-27T combination makes it the F-16s hunter killer

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Mr-Ad0lf
            Who won? The Luftwaffe Migs f***** the F-16s

            Thats also what happened during the Kargil conflict in 1999 when a lone IAF Mig-29 armed with BVRAAMs locked onto 2 PAF F-16s at maximum range sending them fleeing back to base. It was that incident that got the Fulcrums nicknamed the 'Falcon Hunters' in IAF circles. There are more Airforces around the world operating the Fulcrums than the F-16 'Fighting Chicken'. Also Russian aircraft have the ability to field better missiles than American aircraft. The MiG-29's superior speed translates to increased missile launch range which means that, coupled with the Fulcrum's BVR engagement with the IRST/R-27T combination makes it the F-16s hunter killer

            Really? Sources Please........
            "They want to test our feelings.They want to know whether Muslims are extremists or not. Death to them and their newspapers."

            Protester

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            • #7
              Originally posted by MIKEMUN
              Really? Sources Please........
              www.google.com

              Comment


              • #8
                It depends who's operating the Migs... Lets say... German Mig-29's vs. Saudi F-16's. Who would come out victorious?
                Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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                • #9


                  Luftwaffe wins :) :) :)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    ok, Adolf, you're starting to get REALLY annoying now... How about coming up with facts???, and I mean REAL facts.
                    Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                    -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Eh, the US Navy would just wipe out all the Luftwaffe airbases from the Med with cruise missiles...

                      LOL, the US can wipe out whole air forces without even bothering to give the other guys a chance to shoot back...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by M21Sniper
                        Eh, the US Navy would just wipe out all the Luftwaffe airbases from the Med with cruise missiles...

                        LOL, the US can wipe out whole air forces without even bothering to give the other guys a chance to shoot back...
                        What I was saying is... a German Mig-29 and a Saudi Arabian F-16... who would win???
                        Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                        -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The Great Kriegsmarine

                          Originally posted by M21Sniper
                          Eh, the US Navy would just wipe out all the Luftwaffe airbases from the Med with cruise missiles...

                          LOL, the US can wipe out whole air forces without even bothering to give the other guys a chance to shoot back...
                          Er, not before the German Navy subs sink the US Navy
                          :) :)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Tronic
                            What I was saying is... a German Mig-29 and a Saudi Arabian F-16... who would win???
                            Saudi Arabia doesn't operate F-16's. They use F-15's.

                            A little reality check for Mr Adolf on the German experience with the Mig-29:
                            After the 1994 Farnborough Air Show there was one such description of how the MiG-29 was performing in the new Germany. Belyakov and Waldenberg gave Luftwaffe MiG-29's credit for winning "BVR duels" against USAF F-15's and F-16's despite their use of ECM. They praised the MiG-29's well maintained radar, powerful transmitter, and "long range target detection capability" with a very small radar cross section, high ECCM hardening, and more capable BVR missiles. They did admit, however, that the MiG-29 reaches a 9G capability only after the fuel volume is internal. It was also assumed, by them in their calculations, that the Sparrow missile did not get a radar semi-active midcourse update against a maneuvering target, which is wrong. In reality, the German Air Force MiG-29 experience against other NATO aircraft has been only allowed in deliberately controlled training situations, more to educate pilots then to assess superiority. The Luftwaffe feels caught between intense political pressure by the Russians to validate the MiG-29 in a NATO environment, as well as the natural desire by the NATO pilots to "fight" the Fulcrum flown by better trained pilots.

                            Initially the newly assimilated East German MiG-29 Wing (JG.3 changed later to JG.73), at Preschen still manned by its original cadre, proved unsatisfactory according to NATO standards, in both airmanship and tactical know-how. Only after existing Luftwaffe F-4, Tornado, and F-15 exchange pilots re-built the squadron, did a more realistic use of the MiG-29 occur.

                            To say that the communist trained East Germans were innovatively hampered by their own dielectric approach to training and operationally shackled by Russian authority as to "when" and "how much" to fly, would be a gross understatement. NATO pilots were quite amazed and confused over the fact that most of these East German "elite" pilots appeared not "care" about flying and had little interest in doing anything innovative with their training once they did get a chance to fly.

                            At the NATO F-16 Fighter Weapons Instructor's (FWIT-89) symposium, with a select gathering of Instructor Pilots (IP's), not just from NATO, but all over the world, the first face-to-face discussions were made with the Commander and tactical flight leaders of the Preschen Wing. The results were heart-breaking for those US & European trained pilots who sacrificed so much to stay on the razor's edge, although it was a relief to realize that clearly the Western approach to training was far superior. The average NATO pilot in that room had a far greater comprehension of the MiG-29's capabilities than did any of the MiG pilot's themselves. Almost all of the visitors spoke German and more than half Russian. There were no communication gaps, it was a straight forward pilot-to-pilot talk. The results were simple, the MiG pilot's perceived their flying tasks as a second or third priority to their personal agendas, which were first and foremost.

                            This must have impressed the Luftwaffe enough to be concerned about their security reliability. Soon after that, the decision was made to release almost all of the ex-East German pilots from the service and the units were re-organized or disbanded. But once the political decision was made to keep the MiG-29's in the German Air Force, the pressure from the Russian military and aerospace industry became intense as they tried to find any data that would support their claims of parallel or better suitability of the MiG-29 to NATO aircraft. In fact, what they are trying to do, was to take western experience with the MiG-29 and leverage it in the export marketplace. Fortunately, but not surprisingly, it has not been believed.
                            The IAF's ecperience with the Mig-29:
                            65 x MiG-29 single-seat and 5 x dual-seat trainers with 48 x spare engines (sparing factor of 0.7/aircraft) were delivered between 1986 and 1990 at a total program cost of approximately $600 million that included initial spares and support. These aircraft were the first MiG-29's to ever leave the Soviet Union and were not up to the weapons system standard of those that went later to the Warsaw Pact allies. The aircraft were sent disassembled by sea, and re-assembled, and test flown in India. By 1990 three squadrons were operational. Two Flight Data Ground Processing Units were included to help pilots debrief their utilization of flight controls and systems. Expectations were that single-seat aircraft would fly 15 hours per month (180 hrs/yr) and dual-seat aircraft 20 hours per month (240 hrs/yr).

                            There were extensive problems encountered in operational and maintenance due to the large number of pre-mature failures of engines, components, and systems. Of the total of 189 engines in service, 139 engines (74%) failed pre-maturely and had been withdraw from service by July 1992, thus effectively shutting down operations. 62 of these engines had not even accomplished 50% of their 300 hours first overhaul point. Thus the desired serviceability showed a steadily decreasing trend.

                            Engineering reports mainly attribute RD-33 failures to design/material deficiencies causing discolored engine oil (8), cracks in the nozzle guide vanes (31), and surprisingly, foreign object damage (FOD). The eight material deficient engines (discolored oil) were repaired by the contractor under warrantee provisions, but the engines had to be recycled to the manufacturer. The thirty-one engines with cracks in their nozzle guide vanes were fixed in the field by contractor teams and adjustments were made to the entire engine fleet. But even though the incidents reduced the occurrences of the cracks, they continued. But the FOD situation is the most interesting, especially after the inlet FOD doors received world press coverage, but there were other concerns about production quality control that led to problems.

                            Since the Indian Air Force received early model Fulcrum A's, some just after the 200th production article, there were quality control deficiencies that resulted in numerous pieces of FOD (foreign object damage) and tools being left behind after final construction inside of the aircraft. Remember that the Fulcrum skeleton is made first and then the skin is riveted over top, in the way aircraft were made in the fifties and sixties in the West. Nuts, bolts, tools, etc. all made their way to the engine bays and inlet ducts and when they were loosened up after accelerations they damaged engines and equipment.

                            On top of all this, it was discovered that the unique FOD doors on the MiG-29's inlets were not stopping material from getting into the engine ducts. Since the doors retracted "up" into the inlet, debris that was kicked up by the nose wheel lodged on or at the bottom of the door seal and then was ingested into the engine when the door opened during the nose gear lifted off the ground during takeoff.

                            This problem was known from the earliest days. After the first four MiG-29 prototypes were evaluated, the nose gear was moved further back, but nose wheel "mud-flaps" or guards were still required to protect the engine from flying debris. It took until 1988 before all delivered aircraft were so equipped, therefore the initial batch of InAF aircraft had to be locally retro-fitted with mud guards and that activity was not completed until June 1992. All costs were supposed to be re-imbursed by the contractor but Mikoyan reneged and left the InAF with $300,000 in liabilities. In subsequent MiG-29K/M models the FOD doors were replaced by screens that closed "down", forcing any debris out of the louvers repositioned to the lower side of the inlet duct..

                            The Indian Air Force procurement contract was concluded in September 1986, and the first engine was expected to go into overhaul in 1989. However, four engines prematurely came up for overhaul and no repair facility had been prepared. As time went on, 115 of the 122 engines (94%) prematurely failed and had to be re-cycled through engine depots in Russia at great cost. Backlogs were created and only 79 (65%) engines returned on schedule. Even when a regional Indian repair facility was completed in August 1994, the high failure rates continued and the majority of broken engines had to be sent back to Russian depots. Self-sufficiency was achieved in 1994, only after the operations tempo was significantly reduced on a permanent basis. In the process of refurbishing failed engines, the total technical life of most of the engine fleet was effectively reduced from 800 hours / 8 years to 400 hours / 4 years, at a minimum.
                            Lessons learned:
                            1. The MiG-29 had intensive problems in operation and maintenance since its induction due to premature failure of engines, components, and systems. 74% of the engines failed within five years, were out of supply pipeline for three years, and reduced aircraft availability by 15, to 20%. This led to a decision to restrict flying efforts and therefore compromised operational and training commitments.

                            2. There were significant shortfalls in the performance of the MiG-29 fleet resulting in operational and training inadequacies. The shortfall ranged from 20 to 65% in respect to combat aircraft availability and 58 to 84% in trainers between 1987 - 1991.

                            3. There was a mismatch between induction of the aircraft (1987) and the establishment of its repair facilities (end of 1994). Until that time engines had to be continually sent to manufacturers abroad at great monetary cost, reduction of one-half total life, and a significant stretch of schedule.

                            4. Non-availability of critical radar components and spares resulted in the grounding of significant numbers of aircraft. Five aircraft were out of action for over six months while two were in the hanger for over two years. Unserviceability of computers and the inability to fix them cost excessive amounts of money to rectify.

                            5. The pilot debrief Ground Data Processing Unit, imported at high cost, was left lying around unserviceable and unused since its reception in August 1990.

                            6. The lack of nose wheel mud guards had to be solved by importing upgrade kits and expensive local re-design after material deficiencies could not be overcome.
                            Mig-29 Combat Legacy:
                            If we examine the actual combat performance of the MiG-29, the data shows a more subdued track record despite zealous reports from MAPO-MiG. During the Gulf War, the only enemy fighter to be shot down by an Iraqi MiG-29 was another Iraqi fighter. A MiG-23 who happened to be the guy's wingman and unfortunately the MiG-29 pilot hit the ground after killing it. Meanwhile the USAF downed 4 x MiG-29's during the war (all with AIM-7 Sparrow's) and a fifth one crashed as a result of a maneuvering suicide during an engagement with an F-15. The F-15's wingman downed a MiG-29 with an AIM-7. Seven more MiG-29's were destroyed by air-to-ground munitions or coalition ground forces and four defected to Iran. After the Gulf War, during the Northern Watch patrols over northern Iraq, a USAF F-16 downed a MiG-29 with an AMRAAM (AIM-120) missile.

                            In other theaters, the new Federal Yugoslav Air Force (Serbia proper), designated the "RViPVO" (Ratno Vazduhoplovstovo i Protivvazdushna Odbrana), on 08 Oct 91, attacked Croatian's Presidential Palace in Zagreb with 2 x MiG-29's delivering 57mm air-to-ground rockets. This was the first report of MiG-29's being used in the air-to-ground role since fighting began against Slovenia in June 1991. Soon after that, one MiG-29 was lost to ground fire. The RViPVO assembled their MiG-29 and MiG-21 bis (Fishbed K) units at Batajnica Air Base and they represent Serbia's best air defense resources. The MiG-29's are assigned to one squadron (the 130th LAE) and are locally designated type L-18 and NL-18 aircraft. They are kept in reserve to protect the leadership in Belgrade from NATO PGM equipped aircraft.

                            Moldova leased 12 of its 30 x MiG-29's with pilots and maintenance crews, some Iraqi, to help South Yeman fight its civil war. Seven were shot down or destroyed on the ground with the remaining five rendered unserviceable.

                            Likewise, Cuban MiG-29's have also become virtually unserviceable due to spares shortages. Recent estimates note that only three Cuban Fulcrums are still operational. They did however, get one airborne in early March to shoot down two Cessna Skymasters off the coast of Cuba.

                            So at least 22 x MiG-29's have been downed or destroyed in combat having flown only a couple hundred missions. The only MiG-29 air-to-air victory was a fratricide and at least two pilots killed themselves maneuvering the aircraft at low altitude which could be partially attributed to the way the aircraft 's weapon system is mechanized and its "un-friendly" cockpit that features a heads-down gyro reference. Also, over the years three MiG-29's have been lost in accidents at Air Shows in France and England.
                            http://www.sci.fi/~fta/MiG-29-2b.htm

                            This doesn't take into account the experience in Serbia, where several Mig-29's were shot down by F-16's and F-15's.

                            I think I will have to take the F-16, thank you very much.
                            "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

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                            • #15
                              "Saudi Arabia doesn't operate F-16's. They use F-15's."

                              Oh, ok. Well what about German Mig-29's vs. UAE F-16's??? lol
                              Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                              -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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