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Mihais
13 Jan 12,, 12:06
Found this stuff.It is of course illegal and imoral to debate such things and I'm not the one to put my beloved WAB in such strains.Of course I'm not pi$$ed at the hypocrisy,because there is no such thing.And of course there is no highly selective read of history and no minding in others bussiness.And of course there's no shoveling of one's vision in others throats ''my may or the highway'' style.Some could say there's a blatant disregard for the history and the sufferings of some in favour of others,but I'm not saying such vile things.

All I'm doing is posting an article.No comment is expected and I won't comment anymore on the matter(unless I'll change my mind:rolleyes: ).

Don't rehabilitate the guilty - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News (http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/don-t-rehabilitate-the-guilty-1.407063)

''Recent events in four different Eastern European countries have once again highlighted the ongoing assault on the accepted Holocaust narrative in the post-communist world. Three attracted considerable attention, while the fourth, which perhaps affords us the best insight into the phenomenon of Eastern European attempts to rewrite World War II history, was virtually ignored, until it aroused a solitary Jewish protest.

In Kiev, Odessa and Lviv, on January 1, hundreds marched to mark the birthday of Ukrainian nationalist hero Stepan Bandera, who headed the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN ), which collaborated with the Nazis and actively participated in the mass murder of Jews following the German occupation of Ukraine in 1941. A few days later, the regional council of the Ukrainian oblast of Ivano-Frankivsk declared 2012 the year of the UPA, the military wing of the OUN.

From Estonia, on December 27, it was reported that the country's defense ministry planned to submit a bill to parliament that would recognize Estonians who served in the 20th Waffen-SS Grenadier Division, which fought alongside German troops as "freedom fighters" for the country's independence - despite the fact that Nazi Germany had no intention of granting Estonia freedom. While the Waffen-SS division did not participate in Holocaust crimes (by the time it was established the Jews of Estonia had already been murdered ), its members included men who had previously been involved in killing Jews and Gypsies.

In Zagreb and Split, Croatia, memorial masses were conducted on December 28 to honor Ante Pavelic, its World War II head of state, who bears responsibility for the mass murder of hundreds-of-thousands of Serbs, 30,000 Jews and several thousand Roma. Pavelic, who was installed by the Germans, created one of the most lethal and brutal regimes in Axis-dominated Europe.

The fourth event involved former Lithuanian foreign minister Vygaudas Usackas, currently the EU Special Representative to Afghanistan, who wrote a Wall Street Journal op-ed in which he characterized the Nazi occupation of his homeland during the years 1941-1945 as "a few years' respite from the communists."

In view of the fact that 96.4 percent of the 220,000 Lithuanian Jews who lived there under the German occupation were murdered (along with thousands more Jews deported there from Western and Central Europe ), many by local Nazi collaborators, Usackas' description was grossly insensitive, if not outright outrageous. Yet in response to my criticism, Usackas issued a public statement in which he justified his original text by pointing to the unbalanced treatment in Western public opinion of "the crimes of Stalin's regime ... and the tragedy of its victims," which had only recently received due legal recognition, "in contrast to Nazi crimes which have been universally condemned by all civilized humanity." And while he did reiterate an earlier condemnation of Holocaust crimes in general, his comments did not mention a word about the tragic plight of Lithuanian Jewry or the horrific crimes committed by Lithuanians during the "respite" from Soviet occupation.

Such callous indifference to the fate of over 200,000 Lithuanian citizens, murdered in many cases by their own countrymen, may seem shocking coming from an official representative of the European Union, but recent events in Lithuania clearly indicate the government's determination to rewrite the history books to cover up the crimes of local Nazi collaborators. In this regard, one example stands out: a conference held in the Seimas (Lithuanian parliament ) last June to mark the 70th anniversary of the German invasion. The conference's main purpose was to glorify the Lithuanian Activist Front, a political group that collaborated with the Nazis in the hope of reestablishing Lithuanian independence, and that openly called for violence against the Jews. This incitement was a factor in the widespread attacks on Jews in 46 Lithuanian communities even before the arrival of Nazi troops - a well-documented phenomenon whose existence was denied at the conference.

All of the above cases can best be described as "Holocaust distortion" (as opposed to denial ), which seeks to promote the canard of historical equivalency between Nazi and communist crimes, thereby denying the Holocaust its rightful place as a unique case of genocide. Such distortion also minimizes the highly significant role of Hitler's Eastern European collaborators in Holocaust crimes and paves the way for the rehabilitation of those who fought against the Soviets, regardless of any crimes they may have committed against Jews. It is this ideological foundation that spawned all four events described above.

This approach was originally formulated in the Prague Declaration of June 3, 2008, which can properly be categorized as the official "manifesto of Holocaust distortion." The declaration's original signatories - 27 leading Eastern European political leaders and intellectuals - openly warn that Europe will never be united until it "recognize[s] communism and Nazism as a common legacy," and makes practical demands that if accepted would lead to a revolutionary reevaluation of World War II history, and turn the Holocaust into just another of many similar tragedies. Unfortunately, resolutions supporting these principles have already passed by a wide margin in the European Parliament and the Parliamentary Assembly of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe.

It is time for the Israeli government and Jewish defense organizations to begin actively combating these dangerous phenomena, lest the successes achieved during recent decades in Holocaust commemoration and education worldwide be erased by those trying to conceal the crimes of their countrymen.

Dr. Efraim Zuroff is the chief Nazi-hunter of the Simon Wiesenthal Center and the director of its Israel Office. A German edition of his latest book, "Operation Last Chance: One Man's Quest to Bring Nazi Criminals to Justice," was published last month by Prospero Verlag.

omon
13 Jan 12,, 19:48
We have a program here at history channel called Nazi collaborators, one episode was about Jews that were on Nazis side, one such Jew was a respected member of ss, of course no one in ss knew about him being a Jew. There were thousands Jews that killed their own, while working for Nazis, another such individual was interviewed on the program, he was working at the death camp. Telling ppl “put your shoes and clothes neatly, so you'll find them quick when you get out of the shower", of course there was no shower, but gas.

bigross86
13 Jan 12,, 23:39
Power corrupts, regardless of which god you claim to worship

Bigfella
13 Jan 12,, 23:42
Power corrupts, regardless of which god you claim to worship

I also find it amusing that the same people who are so quick to point the finger at jewish 'collaborators' in ghettoes & camps are also the first to make excuses for Germans, Austrians & Eastern Europeans who, with a dramatically greater set of choices, still chose to participate in the holocaust.

Parihaka
14 Jan 12,, 00:07
I also find it amusing that the same people who are so quick to point the finger at jewish 'collaborators' in ghettoes & camps are also the first to make excuses for Germans, Austrians & Eastern Europeans who, with a dramatically greater set of choices, still chose to participate in the holocaust.
Boots and all. The standard script immediately post WWII was it was all the nasty Nazi's, ignoring the 1000 years of history culturally endemic across Europe and the happy assistance provided to the Nazi's, again across Europe.
In simple truth, the first time a central administration gained control across the continent everybody from France to Finland started singing 'heh ho, heh ho, it's out the Jews will go" (not to forget the Gypo's, homo's, and all the rest of the refuse.)
Finger pointing at any given group now makes me laugh

Mihais
14 Jan 12,, 00:13
That's weird.Napoleon had a similar control of Europe and nothing happened.Plenty of states had more or less autocratic regimes,and again,nothing happened.

Bigfella
14 Jan 12,, 00:33
Boots and all. The standard script immediately post WWII was it was all the nasty Nazi's, ignoring the 1000 years of history culturally endemic across Europe and the happy assistance provided to the Nazi's, again across Europe.
In simple truth, the first time a central administration gained control across the continent everybody from France to Finland started singing 'heh ho, heh ho, it's out the Jews will go" (not to forget the Gypo's, homo's, and all the rest of the refuse.)
Finger pointing at any given group now makes me laugh

In some parts of E.Europe they didn't even wait for the Nazis to take over before the pogroms began.

Parihaka
14 Jan 12,, 04:37
That's weird.Napoleon had a similar control of Europe and nothing happened.Plenty of states had more or less autocratic regimes,and again,nothing happened.

Depended in the govt./king/ruler. So in one rule, Jews lived happily. Same place a hundred years later, pogrom. As for Napoleon, he emancipated Jews within France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon#Jewish_emancipation) believing they were a benefit (despite enormous opposition in France) but never controlled all of Europe, hence the constant warfare against the various coalitions

1979
14 Jan 12,, 09:03
In some parts of E.Europe they didn't even wait for the Nazis to take over before the pogroms began.

Must be those countries the red army occupied and started deporting local population to Siberia.

Dreadnought
14 Jan 12,, 15:43
That's weird.Napoleon had a similar control of Europe and nothing happened.Plenty of states had more or less autocratic regimes,and again,nothing happened.

Men still rode horses or walked and the biggest weapon they had were cannon and also medical was in its infancy. If he had more advanced weapons back then he would have been no different then Hitler in the 20th century. Just a bit shorter.

Roosveltrepub
15 Jan 12,, 04:59
Depended in the govt./king/ruler. So in one rule, Jews lived happily. Same place a hundred years later, pogrom. As for Napoleon, he emancipated Jews within France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon#Jewish_emancipation) believing they were a benefit (despite enormous opposition in France) but never controlled all of Europe, hence the constant warfare against the various coalitions

European persecution and murder of jews is a 1700 yr old tradition no part of the continent is free of.

zraver
15 Jan 12,, 08:34
I think the problem is one of marketing.

The smaller countries found themselves under a double boot of invasion and oppression by the Nazis and Communists. The resistance and nationalist organizations thus do fit the role of national heroes. However the crimes against humanity by both the resistance/nationalist groups and communists remain crimes against humanity. I think it should be possible with a deft enough hand to tell the truth about both truths without detracting from either. Especially if the age old animosity towards the Jews is written into the narrative.

Example- From 1941 to 44 the Legion of Freedom of Misculedovia fought the Soviet Union who invaded Minisculedovia in 1941. They killed thousands of Soviet troops and tied down a number of divisions and kept the dream of an independent Minisculedovia alive through some of the darkest times man has ever known. In 1944, they switched sides and fought the Nazis and hastened the collapse of the Third Reich. However, despite fighting for the freedom of Minisculedovians, they failed to see how their persecution and murder of Jewish Minisculedovians at the behest of the Nazi's betrayed the ideal that a people has a right to live in peace and self determination. This sadly reflects on the history of Europe as a hot bed of antisemitism. Thus while the government of Minisculedovia revers these freedom fighters, we are also committed to learning from their mistake in failing to see that a Minisculedovian is not determined by religion, but by birth. Likewise the government of Minisculedovia remains committed to freedom of religion and opposed to discrimination based on religious preference.

Roosveltrepub
15 Jan 12,, 09:25
If a pogrom occurred tommorow I wouldnt be shocked, The fact the poles engaged in one in 1946 changed my asumption the evil of the holocaust made that kind of action unthinkable

Bigfella
15 Jan 12,, 09:26
Unfortunately it is a human trait to insist that our heroes not have feet of clay. We seem to genuinely struggle with the idea that people can simultaneously do great good & great evil. In fact, some of us even struggle with the idea that someone praiseworthy in one respect can be criticized for serious failings elsewhere. You need only wander onto a WW2 site & see the love letters of modern fanbois to german Generals (especially Rommel) to see this. Personally I'm a 'shades of grey' kind of guy, but evil is still evil. It doesn't go away because a person fought for their nation's freedom or knew which direction to point a tank. A world in which we can freely acknowledge this would be a much better one.

Mihais
15 Jan 12,, 09:40
Some Minisculedovias had tens of millions.Some weren't even invaded in 1940,but in 1920.
The point you're missing is that these had nothing to do with whatever age old persecutions of Jews.That's BS.There was no policy of deportations,mass killings and the likes against Jews not under direct German control and at the same time not invaded by USSR.There is correlation and causation between Soviet ''liberation'',those that sang The Internationale the loudest and subsequent violence(and certainly there's a correlation to the degree of violence prior to the arrival of Axis troops).
The school of thought promoted by the likes of Zuroff sees the Jewish bolsheviks or associated with them as tragic victims of the Holocaust.But they're murderers,not victims.The innocents that were considered guilty by association are indeed victims,but the context and the cause of them falling victims isn't the killing of Christ or some other crap.It's them being part of a group that was perceived as profiting from the occupation.To what degree that perception was right can be debated.There were Jewish victims of the Soviets.But there's also evidence that a disproportionate number among them welcomed the reds and played an active role.
I've also heard the argument,coming from the same school of thought as the author above that Jewish commies weren't Jewish but commies.That can cut both ways.The victims can also be considered not Jewish but Poles,Ukrainians etc....Not a single person living in a European nation ever touched a Jew in WW2.Only Nazis did by this argument.Two or three wrongs don't make a right,and all the statements above are false to anyone with the slightest knowledge coupled with the slightest decency.There were killings and abuses that need to be known and recognized as such.But this should come from all sides involved.There weren't separate events,it was a continuum and correlation.There weren't 100% victims and 100% killers.Grief for one's suffering need not overshadow the suffering of others and definetely shouldn't lead to sufficiency,superiority,disdain and lie.Past need to known and embraced as it is and all need to pay the pennance for it.And move on.

Now,I promised not to post and I do intend to post on this as little as possible.I'm not in a crusade,I was just somewhat pi$$ed.Like me are many.If anyone will think from I wrote that anti-semitism is within my DNA and blind hatred drove me,than he's idiot in my book.

zraver
15 Jan 12,, 09:52
Like me are many.If anyone will think from I wrote that anti-semitism is within my DNA and blind hatred drove me,than he's idiot in my book.

In your blood no of course not. But Europe was a hot bed of antisemitism stemming from a long policy by the church that the Jews killed Christ. Which is a sad reflection on the literacy of the clergy in past times since no where in the Bible is there any evidence Christ was killed and thus because he was innocent murdered.

zraver
15 Jan 12,, 10:08
Personally I'm a 'shades of grey' kind of guy, but evil is still evil. It doesn't go away because a person fought for their nation's freedom or knew which direction to point a tank. A world in which we can freely acknowledge this would be a much better one.

But sometimes evil can tarnish men who are otherwise innocent. For example the Finnish Volunteer regiment of the SS, or SS Norland. Neither has ever been accused of war crimes, while the SS as a whole is as evil as evil gets.

Doktor
15 Jan 12,, 12:42
In your blood no of course not. But Europe was a hot bed of antisemitism stemming from a long policy by the church that the Jews killed Christ. Which is a sad reflection on the literacy of the clergy in past times since no where in the Bible is there any evidence Christ was killed and thus because he was innocent murdered.
Can you back this? Exclude Spain.
And define long policy.

zraver
15 Jan 12,, 13:40
Can you back this? Exclude Spain.
And define long policy.

quick and simple timeline.

Christians and Anti-Semitism: A Calendar of Jewish Persecution (http://www.hearnow.org/caljp.html)

Martin Luther, the biggest of the reformation personalities wrote a book called, "The Jews and Their Lies"

The whole twisted sick vomit called the protocols of Zion came out of Czarist Russia.

The Dreyfus Affair in France.

The refusal to let Jews immigrate to get away from the Nazi's.

The terms in English,
"to jew someone out of something" ie to rip them off, or get such good deal the other party suffered loss.
'don't be a jew/ stop jewwing" don't be stingy/ stop being stingy

Doktor
15 Jan 12,, 14:16
There were Jews in Balkans, Poland, Italy, GB...

Parihaka
15 Jan 12,, 18:19
I'm pretty careful to use the word 'endemic' when discussing matters like this, it's a very precise term. It doesn't imply a genetic predisposition by those with European genes to kill Jews, culturally endemic means that it's an attribute common to that culture.
Anti-semitism has been common in European culture for over a thousand years, specifically because of the Christian church. It has long since reached the point where it is a shibboleth of the culture. At this point I will remind our European members I too am European in that I have inherited the same culture you have, your history is my history until 100-200 years ago.
Under this definition no single European is by default anti-semetic: some may make Jew jokes, some may mutter about Jews controlling the banks, some may stoke the oven fires to burn the bodies and some may hide Anne Frank in the roof.
A Long winded way of saying that it's pointless examining a group known for something else in terms of anti-semitism, you're going to find that everywhere.

ArmchairGeneral
15 Jan 12,, 18:26
Which is a sad reflection on the literacy of the clergy in past times since no where in the Bible is there any evidence Christ was killed and thus because he was innocent murdered.

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

Doktor
15 Jan 12,, 19:24
The main problem with the Jews in Europe is that they were foreigners who (in the eyes of the natives) had more money in general.

The propaganda about them being guilty about this or that, is just that, a propaganda of the day to seize their belongings.

I have no other explanation why it wasn't a continuous effort since in all major European countries at some point the Jews were the unwanted, but not all of he time.

Methinks it is OK to reread the history from today's stance and see if the actions from those marked as bad was political or factual labeling.
Celebrating war criminals does no good neither to those willing to celebrate them nor to the descendants of the victims.

zraver
15 Jan 12,, 21:08
I'm not sure what you're saying here.

1.The medieval to late 19th cen catholic church endorsed the idea that the Jews killed Jesus.

2. Since Jesus was the perfect sacrafice- sinless and blameless he was innocent so killing him was an act of murder.

3. If you actually read the Bible, Jesus cries out and his divine nature leaves his earthly body which dies, he was not killed.

4. His whole intent was to die the perfect sacrifice to perfectly wash away the sins of man and restore us to perfect communion with God.
his death was sinless, blameless and a free will love offering.

zraver
15 Jan 12,, 21:11
The main problem with the Jews in Europe is that they were foreigners who (in the eyes of the natives) had more money in general.

You might find this strange, but actually its the Europeans who are the forgieners. Except for a few groups like the Latins, Celts, Basque, Greeks, Georgians etc the major European ethnic groups arrived in Europe after the Jews the did- Saxons, Normans, Franks, Germans, Maygars, Goths, Slavs etc all moved into areas that already had a Jewish presence.

kato
15 Jan 12,, 21:16
The main problem with the Jews in Europe is that they were foreigners who (in the eyes of the natives) had more money in general.
Umm, no - they were not. Historically it's a matter of segregation, and to some extent the middle-age European version of traditional caste systems. And segregation always breeds racist (or whatever term you want to use) attitudes in the population no matter where and when, especially when the segregation induces a difference in economic status (which it did for jews in Europe mostly in the 18th and 19th century).

The same happened with every other segregationist attitude in Europe in the past millenium, especially where the segregation stemmed from such irrelevant issues as religion.


the major European ethnic groups arrived in Europe after the Jews.
The entire Migration was an intra-European one (save for the Vandals effectively emigrating from Europe...). And - "after the jews"? Religion does not spread through migration but through conversion.

1979
15 Jan 12,, 21:40
or whatever term you want to use

xenophobia would be better since it includes members of one own race.

kato
15 Jan 12,, 22:53
Yeah, but it also just means "fear of the strange/stranger" and doesn't properly express the "caste lines" within a polylithic single culture.

Chauvinism in some variations of its classical meaning might also fit, although that incorrectly implies somewhat that each strata sees itself as a nation in itself...

Doktor
15 Jan 12,, 22:58
Umm, no - they were not. Historically it's a matter of segregation, and to some extent the middle-age European version of traditional caste systems. And segregation always breeds racist (or whatever term you want to use) attitudes in the population no matter where and when, especially when the segregation induces a difference in economic status (which it did for jews in Europe mostly in the 18th and 19th century).

The same happened with every other segregationist attitude in Europe in the past millenium, especially where the segregation stemmed from such irrelevant issues as religion.
Did the Jews segregate voluntarily?

zraver
15 Jan 12,, 23:08
Did the Jews segregate voluntarily?

In part yes, in part no. The ability to form small cohesive an sustainable communities was first developed during the Babylonian Exile. By the time of Cyrus the great there were Jewish enclaves across the ancient world- Babylon, Egypt, Ethiopia, North Africa...

1979
16 Jan 12,, 00:07
and doesn't properly express the "caste lines" within a polylithic single culture.


Actually I did not fully understood where you were going with that line of thought, other than pointing out the religious wars of our little continent.

Parihaka
16 Jan 12,, 00:42
Did the Jews segregate voluntarily?

Jewish ghettos in Europe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_ghettos_in_Europe). Chicken and egg situation really.