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French National Assembly Criminalize Denying Armenian Genocide

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  • French National Assembly Criminalize Denying Armenian Genocide

    They will probably refuse it in the senate as they did the last time. These vote gathering tricks are an affront to both us and armenians IMO.

  • #2
    The Armenian Genocide should always be acknowledged and recognized as such, it was a genocide and no amount of revisionalist Turkish propaganda can change that.

    It is however a bad idea in any circumstance to pass a law criminalizing someone taking a politically revisionalist stand - they can be treated with scorn and rebuffed with facts, but it shouldn't be a crime to express such a view. This is (along with the law criminalizing Holocaust denial) a sad step backwards for personal liberty and freedom of speech.
    Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
    - John Stuart Mill.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by crooks View Post
      The Armenian Genocide should always be acknowledged and recognized as such, it was a genocide and no amount of revisionalist Turkish propaganda can change that.

      It is however a bad idea in any circumstance to pass a law criminalizing someone taking a politically revisionalist stand - they can be treated with scorn and rebuffed with facts, but it shouldn't be a crime to express such a view. This is (along with the law criminalizing Holocaust denial) a sad step backwards for personal liberty and freedom of speech.
      Agree entirely. My position on this is 'a pox on all their houses'. Turkey is in no position to get self righteous over an issue of free speech here given they way that some who disagree with the party line have been treated. France is doing something something disgraceful by removing this issue from the realm of historical discussion & turning it over to legislators & courts. Another sad day for freedom of speech & free discussion of ideas.
      sigpic

      Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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      • #4
        Merci.....Vive la France, no matter if it really happens.

        This law will not apply to people on the Paris streets who want to deny a (or any) recognized Genocide by France. If passes then I think it will only effect organizations running denial campaigns (there are many, especially in the USA)against a known historical fact that has been recognized by the government and the French people. They are tired of it.
        Wolf Hunter

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        • #5


          French...



          i just wonder that this means that French can do same thing for lets say American-Indians!?!?...



          or this is just for us!?!

          nwm, this is just French...
          Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

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          • #6
            Can't say it was unexpected

            Istanbul (CNN) -- Turkey's leader accused France of "genocide" last century during the war in Algeria, a ratcheting up of rhetoric over controversial French legislation that would criminalize any public denial of what the bill calls the Armenian genocide last century in Ottoman Turkey.

            "In Algeria, an estimated 15 percent of the population had been subjected to the massacre of French from 1945 on. This is genocide," Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said during a conference in Istanbul on Friday.
            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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            • #7
              This tat for tat approach won't do us any good. We should rather focus on denouncing use of our problems with armenia as a political tool by others.

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              • #8
                Those who deny genocide always dismiss the abundance of documents and testimony as contrived or coerced, or as forgeries and falsehoods.

                Free speech does not guarantee the deniers the right to be treated as the "other" side of a legitimate debate when there is no credible "other side;" nor does it guarantee the deniers space in the classroom or curriculum, or in any other forum.

                Genocide denial is an insidious form of intellectual and moral degradation and a violation of what a university represents.
                Denial of genocide strives to reshape history in order to demonize the victims and rehabilitate the perpetrators. Denial of genocide is the final stage of genocide; it is what Elie Wiesel has called a "double killing."

                Denial murders the dignity of the survivors and seeks to destroy the remembrance of the crime.
                Wolf Hunter

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Big K View Post


                  French...



                  i just wonder that this means that French can do same thing for lets say American-Indians!?!?...



                  or this is just for us!?!

                  nwm, this is just French...
                  still i wait for this...
                  Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Denial of Armenian Genocide punished in Slovakia
                    November 23, 2011 | 17:28



                    Bill criminalizing denial of the Armenian Genocide is ratified by National Council of Slovakia, Deputy Prime Minister Stefan Harabin told the leader of Armenian community of Slovakia Ashot Grigoryan, report Nouvelles d`Arménie.

                    Resolution on Armenian Genocide was passed by Slovak National Council in 2004. Two years ago the then Deputy Prime Minister Stefan Harabin stated he was preparing amendments to the criminalizing denial of Holocaust which will be also applied for those denying the Armenian Genocide.

                    Every citizen of Slovakia denying the Armenian Genocide in any country should be punished with imprisonment of up to 5 years.
                    Denial of Armenian Genocide punished in Slovakia | Armenia News - NEWS.am
                    Wolf Hunter

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ararat View Post
                      Every citizen of Slovakia denying the Armenian Genocide in any country should be punished with imprisonment of up to 5 years.
                      Denial of Armenian Genocide punished in Slovakia | Armenia News - NEWS.am
                      W.....T.....F.....?

                      Anything I say will be a repeat of what crooks and BF wrote so I'll just say ditto to what they wrote.

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                      • #12
                        "I disagree with what you say, and I will defend to the death the courts right to lock you up for it".
                        Ego Numquam

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Chunder,

                          Nice twisting of "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
                          No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                          To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Can't realy see the point of this; sure a ethnic based 'cleansing' occured (some Greeks weree caught up in too) but isn't it more to the point to build bridges and say sorry etc than pass stupid laws in a country the other side of Europe for which nobody will ever be prosecuted? It's a bit like making a law making it criminal to deny that people ate pigs in 1400... so what? More French imbecility when they should be dealing with more serious issues... seriously they get payed for this?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by snapper View Post
                              Can't realy see the point of this; sure a ethnic based 'cleansing' occured (some Greeks weree caught up in too) but isn't it more to the point to build bridges and say sorry etc than pass stupid laws in a country the other side of Europe for which nobody will ever be prosecuted? It's a bit like making a law making it criminal to deny that people ate pigs in 1400... so what? More French imbecility when they should be dealing with more serious issues... seriously they get payed for this?
                              I think French had just about enough of Turkish overblown nationalism and chess pumping shauvinism.....btw, ethnic cleansing and Genocide are not the same.



                              famous French writer Bernard-Henri Lévy defending the criminalization of Armenian genocide denial:

                              On the Armenian Genocide: The Response of a Handful of Historians

                              Are these people really incapable of comprehending? Or are they just pretending not to understand?

                              The law whose purpose is to penalize negationist revisionism, voted before Christmas by the French parliament, does not propose to write history in the place of historians. And this for the simple reason that this history has been told and written, well written, for a long time. This we have always known: that, beginning in 1915, the Armenians were the victims of a methodic attempt at annihilation. A wealth of literature has been devoted to the subject, based in particular upon the confessions offered by the Turkish criminals themselves, starting with Hoca Ilyas Sami, almost immediately after the fact. From Yehuda Bauer to Raul Hilberg, from researchers at Yad Vashem to Yves Ternon and others, no serious historian casts doubt upon this reality or denies it. In other words, this law has nothing to do with the will to establish a truth of state. No representative of the French National Assembly who voted for it saw himself as a substitute for historians or their work. Together, they only intended to recall this simple right, that of each of us not to be publicly attacked -- and its corollary, the right to demand reparations for this particularly outrageous offense which is the insult to the memory of the dead. It is a question of law, not one of history.

                              Presenting this law as one that denies liberty, one likely to hamper the work of historians is another strange argument that makes one wonder. It is the negationist revisionists who, up until now, have hampered the work of historians. It is their mad ideas, their hare-brained concepts, their twisting of facts, their terrifying and breathtaking lies that shake the earth upon which, in principle, a science should be built. And in punishing them, making their task more complicated, alerting the public that it is dealing not with scholars but with those who would enflame minds, that the law protects and shelters history. Is there one historian who has been prevented from working on the Shoah by the Gayssot law punishing denial of the Holocaust? Is there one author who, in good conscience, can claim that it has limited his freedom to do research and to raise questions? And isn't it clear that the only ones this law has seriously hindered are the Faurissons, the Irvings, and the other Le Pens? Well, the same applies to the genocide of the Armenians. This law, when the Senate will have ratified it, will be a stroke of fortune for historians, who can finally work in peace. Unless... Yes, unless those who oppose the law express this other, cloudier reservation: that it would be a bit premature to come to a conclusion, precisely and for nearly a century, of "genocide".

                              Some still say, isn't there some other way than the law to intimidate the "assassins on paper"? And hasn't the truth in itself, in its starkness and its rigour, the means to defend itself and to triumph over those who would deny it? It is a vast debate, one which has been discussed, in parenthesis, since the origins of philosophy. And to which one adds, in the case at hand, a specific parameter stating that, when in doubt, it is prudent to make sure one is backed up by the law. This parameter is the negationist revisionism of the Turkish State. And this specificity is that the negationists there are not just a vague bunch of cranks, but people who are supported by resources, diplomacy, the capacity for blackmail and retaliation of a powerful State. Imagine the situation of the survivors of the Shoah had the German State been a negationist State after the war. Imagine the immensity of their additional distress and anger had they been confronted, not with a sect of loonies, but with an unrepentant Germany that brought pressure upon their partners by threatening them with angry retaliation should they call the extermination of the Jews at Auschwitz genocide. It is, mutatis mutandis, the situation of the Armenians. And that is also why they have the right to a law.

                              And finally, I would add that it's time to stop mixing everything up and drowning the Armenian tragedy in the ritualized blahblahblah assailing the "memorial laws". For this law is not a memorial law. It is not one of those dangerous power plays capable of laying the path for dozens if not hundreds of absurd or blackguardly rules, codifying what one has the right to say about the Saint Bartholomew's Day massacre, the meaning of colonization, slavery, the Civil War, the misdemeanor of blasphemy and heaven knows what else. It is a law concerning a genocide -- which is not the same. It is a law sanctioning those who, in denying it, intensify and perpetuate the genocidal act -- which is something else entirely. There are not, thank God, hundreds of genocides, or even dozens. There are three. Four, if we add the Cambodians to the Armenians, the Jews, and the Rwandans. And to place these three or four genocides on the same level as all the rest, to make their penalization the antechamber of a political correctness that authorizes a stream of useless or perverse laws on the disputed aspects of our national memory, to say, "Watch it! You're opening a Pandora's box from which everything and anything can pop out !" is another imbecility, exacerbated by another infamy and sealed with a dishonesty that is, really, grotesque.

                              Let us confront this specious line of argument with the wisdom of national representation. And may the senators complete the process by refusing to be intimidated by this little band of historians.
                              Bernard-Henri Lévy: On the Armenian Genocide: The Response of a Handful of Historians
                              Big K, pay attention to the bold part, you might get the answer you are waiting for from this French guy.....you know he reminds of your Turkish noble price winner Ohran Pamuk who has fled Turkey for threats on his life trying to make things right.
                              Wolf Hunter

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