Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Over-regulation/taxation or not enough investment?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Over-regulation/taxation or not enough investment?

    Obama’s economic speech shifts the focus from deficits - The Washington Post

    Obama’s economic speech shifts the focus from deficits
    Fareed Zakaria, Published: December 7

    With his speech in Kansas, President Obama has begun a national conversation about the economy and the role of government. In presenting his view, Obama shifted the economic conversation from deficits to the crucial issue of growth. After all, deficits matter because they could have a harmful effect on growth. The question we should all ask is: What would make this economy grow?

    One theory heard a lot these days is that the economy is burdened by excessive government regulation, interference and taxes. All these pressures on business, especially small business, are keeping the economy down. Cut them, the Republican candidates all say, and the economy will be unleashed. It’s a compelling picture, but the data simply do not support it.

    A World Economic Forum survey that ranks countries on their overall economic competitiveness puts the United States fifth; the countries ahead of it, including Singapore and Finland, are tiny, with populations around 5 percent that of the United States. The World Bank publishes a report that looks at “Doing Business” across the globe. The United States ranks No. 4, again behind a handful of tiny countries. As is the case with the World Economic Forum, that ranking has not changed much over the years.

    The Kauffman Foundation, which looks at the level of U.S. entre*pre*neur*ship, found that in 2010, 340 out of every 100,000 Americans started a business each month. That rate hasn’t changed much in the past few years; it is only slightly higher than in 2007, before the recession. Regarding regulations, Bloomberg News has crunched the numbers and found that the Obama administration has not reviewed or issued significantly more rules than its predecessors.

    The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) released a study last week measuring tax revenue as a percentage of gross domestic product. The United States came in 27th out of 30 countries. Taxes are low in historical terms as well, the lowest since the early 1950s. But the complexity of the U.S. tax code clearly exacts a price in terms of economic growth and competitiveness. The World Bank study finds that the only category in which the United States is not in the top 20 is “paying taxes,” where it ranks a miserable 72. (The U.S. ranking has shifted from 76 in the 2008 report to 46 in 2009 to 61 in 2010.) Tax reform that gets rid of the loopholes, deductions and credits — and the inherent corruption related to them — would clearly help the economy.

    So, outside of the tax code, the United States does not seem to have slipped very much in terms of competitiveness and ease of doing business. What has changed? The answer is pretty clear. Only five years ago, American infrastructure used to be ranked in the top 10 by the World Economic Forum. Now we’re 24th. U.S. air infrastructure has gone from 12th to 31st, roads from eighth to 20th.

    The drop in human capital is greater. The United States used to have the world’s largest percentage of college graduates. We’re now No. 14, according to the most recent OECD data, and American students routinely rank toward the bottom of the developed world. The situation in science education is more drastic. The number of engineering degrees conferred annually decreased more than 11 percent between 1989 and 2000. Even with the increase in college attendance over the past two decades, there were fewer engineering and engineering technologies graduates in 2009 (84,636) than in 1989 (85,002). Research and development spending has risen under Obama, but the basic trend has been downward for two decades. In percentage terms, the federal share of research spending — which funds basic science — is half of what it was in the 1950s.

    In other words, the big shift in the United States over the past two decades is not a rise in regulations and taxation but a decline in investment — in physical and human capital. And investment is the crucial locomotive of long-term growth. Michael Spence, the Nobel Prize-winning economist, points out that the United States got out of the Great Depression because of the spending associated with World War II but also because during the war, it dramatically reduced its consumption and expanded investments. People spent less, saved more and bought war bonds. That surge in investment — by people and government — produced a generation of growth after the war. If we want the next generation of growth, we need a similarly serious strategy of investment.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  • #2
    Originally posted by astralis View Post
    In other words, the big shift in the United States over the past two decades is not a rise in regulations and taxation but a decline in investment — in physical and human capital. And investment is the crucial locomotive of long-term growth. Michael Spence, the Nobel Prize-winning economist, points out that the United States got out of the Great Depression because of the spending associated with World War II but also because during the war, it dramatically reduced its consumption and expanded investments. People spent less, saved more and bought war bonds. That surge in investment — by people and government — produced a generation of growth after the war. If we want the next generation of growth, we need a similarly serious strategy of investment.
    Another rehash of "spend more money, grow the economy", nice. And Mr. Nobel Spence states that the U.S "reduced its consumption and expanded investments." during WWII and treats it like that was a choice? The average American reduced their consumption of what? M3A1 halftracks? Fletcher class destroyers? Because that's all that was being built for 4 years - war materiel. Even if people HAD money, what the hell were they going to spend it on?

    Until people like you and Mr. Spence can show me how you plan to start a 4 year, worldwide conventional total war, you need to shut the hell up about how WWII fixed the economy.

    -dale

    Comment


    • #3
      Hey I don't mind having a half-track.
      "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

      Comment


      • #4
        I started to read the whole thing. But then I realized it was more of that same old blather and hoopla that those who want me to support them always come up with! Especially the "academics". That ol' saying about not seeing the forest through the trees comes to mind!
        To ask
        Over-regulation/taxation or not enough investment?
        Makes me just cringe! Someone must have been living in either a cave or a condo in Washington!

        Comment


        • #5
          dale,

          Another rehash of "spend more money, grow the economy", nice. And Mr. Nobel Spence states that the U.S "reduced its consumption and expanded investments." during WWII and treats it like that was a choice? The average American reduced their consumption of what? M3A1 halftracks? Fletcher class destroyers? Because that's all that was being built for 4 years - war materiel. Even if people HAD money, what the hell were they going to spend it on?

          Until people like you and Mr. Spence can show me how you plan to start a 4 year, worldwide conventional total war, you need to shut the hell up about how WWII fixed the economy.

          -dale
          the point is that WWII forced policies that boosted personal savings/investment and reduced personal consumption...and that it had a great benefit on the economy afterwards. the broader lessons are applicable today, given our endemically low savings rate and obvious decay of national infrastructure.

          there are multiple ways to do the same today without starting a global war-- heck, there are a few ways of re-organization that doesn't even involve greater taxation. a few ways i can think of off the top of my head would be a system of a steeply progressive consumption tax; reduction of long-term capital gains tax; increase the amount of money that can be sheltered in roth/traditional IRAs.

          and, as zakaria notes, on the government side, increase investment in basic/applied R&D, which has been steadily reduced in favor of payments that support the elderly and low tax rates for the ultra-wealthy.
          Last edited by astralis; 08 Dec 11,, 20:36.
          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

          Comment


          • #6
            Progressive sales tax?
            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Doktor View Post
              Progressive sales tax?
              Only progressives would pay this.

              A man can dream, can't he?
              "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

              Comment


              • #8
                i corrected it to state progressive consumption tax.

                for instance, report your taxable income and your annual savings (we already do both). the difference is consumption. determine a suitable deduction and rate, and tax that on a very progressive basis.

                by the way, this idea is NOT a "lefty" idea-- it's a perennial favorite among center-right economists and was considered by bush's tax reform panel.
                Last edited by astralis; 08 Dec 11,, 20:45.
                There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by astralis View Post
                  i corrected it to state progressive consumption tax.

                  for instance, report your taxable income and your annual savings (we already do both). the difference is consumption. determine a suitable deduction and rate, and tax that on a very progressive basis.

                  by the way, this idea is NOT a "lefty" idea-- it's a perennial favorite among center-right economists and was considered by bush's tax reform panel.
                  Would this replace income tax, which is already very progressive?
                  "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by astralis View Post
                    i corrected it to state progressive consumption tax.

                    for instance, report your taxable income and your annual savings (we already do both). the difference is consumption. determine a suitable deduction and rate, and tax that on a very progressive basis.

                    by the way, this idea is NOT a "lefty" idea-- it's a perennial favorite among center-right economists and was considered by bush's tax reform panel.
                    So if I spend 95% and deduction is 10% they will pay me back 5%. I am not getting it.

                    I never said it's leftie or rightie, just the way I read it, thought the more expensive the goods you purchase, the more tax% on it.
                    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      gunnut,

                      Would this replace income tax, which is already very progressive?
                      IIRC the original idea was to find a replacement for an income tax.

                      this would work quite well, IMHO, once the nitty gritty of deductions and the actual rates are assigned. one of the reasons why it's not too popular politically, though, is that the rates themselves look big: because you're taxing an even smaller proportion of income, and to reduce the naturally regressive impact of a consumption tax, the wealthy would have to be taxed at rates probably approaching 60-70%.
                      There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        doktor,

                        So if I spend 95% and deduction is 10% they will pay me back 5%. I am not getting it.
                        the deduction should be a flat rate, not a percentage.

                        so say you earn $1 mil a year and spend $950K-- take off a standard deduction of 30K-- you would be taxed on $920K at whatever rate is decided for your income bracket.

                        in this scenario you'd probably be in trouble, unless you could liquidate your other assets.

                        OTOH, say you only spend $95K-- take off the standard deduction-- and you'd be doing quite well indeed.

                        this would give people an additional incentive to plan ahead on their spending and take control of their personal finances.
                        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Astralis,

                          Won't that decrease the demand side of the economy?
                          No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                          To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            doktor,

                            Astralis,

                            Won't that decrease the demand side of the economy?
                            it would in the short-term, but over the medium/long-term the extra investment would drive demand.

                            that's why any implementation should be done over a period of time, and i'd say only when the economy recovers. this type of thing would actually be ideally implemented during a boom, because it would take a lot of hot money out of the immediate market.
                            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              So basically you wouldn't increase taxes now, would you?
                              No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                              To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X