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lemontree
21 Nov 11,, 12:24
What tolerance can one expect when muslims are in majority?...contrast this to the innocent appeals made by them for a "community centre" in ground zero in NYC:mad:


SRINAGAR: All Saints church pastor C M Khanna, accused of converting young Muslim boys and girls, was arrested by the Jammu & Kashmir police late on Saturday and charged under Section 153-A and 295-A, with "deliberately hurting the religious sentiments of the people to disturb peace".

J&K does not have laws against religious conversions through allurement, etc. Fr Khanna's criminality was established by a grainy cellphone video showing him baptising some Kashmiri Muslim men.

This video (on youtube) surfaced a few weeks ago and caused a stir. The head of the Sharia court in Kashmir, Mufti Mohd Bashiruddin, "summoned" Fr Khanna. There, the pastor is said to have "confessed" to his crime. The grand mufti later told local reporters that the reverend's activities would not be tolerated. "There will be serious consequences of this. We will implement our part and the government should implement its," the Mufti said. Less than 24 hours later, the priest was in the lockup.

On Sunday, at the All Saints church, fear was palpable. Khanna's flock huddled around as cops stood guard. A CID team rummaged through his office documents. The allegation against him is that 15 boys and girls converted by Khanna were lured by money, a charge denied by Fr Khanna and other church officials.

The police, too, have several different versions. While senior officers said they are investigating the case, others allege they have sworn statements from two converts that they indeed did accept money to convert. The FIR against the priest, however, makes no mention of these statements.

The FIR was lodged by the cops themselves late on Saturday; there's no complainant. "We took suo motu notice and booked the priest," said IGP Kashmir S M Sahai. Meanwhile, Srinagar's Christians allege that some of those converted shown in the video were picked up by the police.

It does appear that the administration's action against the priest is in response to street protests triggered by the news of conversions as well as a recent Facebook page containing blasphemous photographs on Islam. Even Kashmir University students came out and raised slogans against conversions. But the government was left without an option after a public display of unity by separatist leaders.

Strangely, the pastor's arrest has been met with complete silence from human rights groups.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Jammu-and-Kashmir-priest-arrested-for-religious-conversions/articleshow/10811002.cms

Officer of Engineers
22 Nov 11,, 04:42
What tolerance can one expect when muslims are in majority?...contrast this to the innocent appeals made by them for a "community centre" in ground zero in NYC:mad:


Jammu and Kashmir priest arrested for religious conversions - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Jammu-and-Kashmir-priest-arrested-for-religious-conversions/articleshow/10811002.cms)Captain,

I see a case for India's ambulance chasers ... and perhaps one good lawyer who will make supreme court judge.

lemontree
22 Nov 11,, 04:51
Captain,

I see a case for India's ambulance chasers ... and perhaps one good lawyer who will make supreme court judge.
Sir,

The priest was arrested to appease the hardliners....and charged with "hurting religious sentiments"...Nothing much will happen, simply because the pastor belongs to a Methodist or Protestant church, which is not as powerful as the Catholic church (simply because they have one voice) in India.

Officer of Engineers
22 Nov 11,, 04:58
Sir,

The priest was arrested to appease the hardliners....and charged with "hurting religious sentiments"...Nothing much will happen, simply because the pastor belongs to a Methodist or Protestant church, which is not as powerful as the Catholic church (simply because they have one voice) in India.Captain,

You mean to tell me that no lawyer in India does not relish this case?

lemontree
22 Nov 11,, 05:45
Captain,

You mean to tell me that no lawyer in India does not relish this case?

None sir, even the human rights groups are silent.

667medic
22 Nov 11,, 06:12
If Pastor Khanna can be arrested for "forced conversions" then why isn't the police taking action against these gentlemen.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzlKorFgKfw


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J1gJOiH2qI&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zPFCQ44Ul4&feature=related

And where are the bleeding heart liberals.

667medic
22 Nov 11,, 06:21
And I always thought that the Chinese were sane people who didn't believe in religion


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zaOrXgjteE&feature=related

lemontree
22 Nov 11,, 07:11
medic,
If you can send me the links, maybe I can send it to the people who can use it.

Officer of Engineers
22 Nov 11,, 07:46
None sir, even the human rights groups are silent.I cannot believe that there's no lawyer in India who does not relish in establishing Constitutional Law.

667medic
22 Nov 11,, 07:54
medic,
If you can send me the links, maybe I can send it to the people who can use it.

Sir, these videos are only the tip of the iceberg. It took me 5 seconds to get them. Do a search on Zakir Naik and you will get tons of videos. It typically features a lecture session and then questions from the audience.

15 People Convert to Islam in Mumbai By Dr Zakir Naik - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rzlKorFgKfw)

An Indian Girl Converted to Islam...Dr.Zakir Naik - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2J1gJOiH2qI)

Hindu Girl 'Muni Archan' Embracing Islam by the hand of Mufti Naeem Head of Jamia Binori Madressah Karachi 14 04 2010 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9zPFCQ44Ul4)

50 Chinese convert to Islam in Saudi Arabia - July 2011 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7zaOrXgjteE)

667medic
22 Nov 11,, 07:59
I cannot believe that there's no lawyer in India who does not relish in establishing Constitutional Law.

Sir, the moment any lawyer even beeps for Pastor Khanna, he will be accused as an RSS/BJP agent. That's the way things run in India.
Poor people suffer here including Hindus/Muslims/Christians but the "victims" only seem to be Muslims. And the people at the forefront of "protecting" the Muslims are the liberals who are trying to be the Indian version of the fools living in USA.

hammer
22 Nov 11,, 09:52
No lawyer would take up this case. Not in pseudo secular India. Replace muslims with Hindus here and you would've have had the entire media, human rights Orgs, NGO, leftists, self righteous btchs and what not, to jump into the fray to defend the "minority".

After all, we have a central minister in India (who is a hindu btw) who addressed Osama as Osamaji (with complete respect) and still continues to be a influential figure in Indian politics.

Why they have a separate nation for muslims in sub-continent is beyond me. They might as well join the Indian union and rule by proxy. There are thousands of politicians who are only happy to do their bidding.

Doktor
22 Nov 11,, 10:14
IIRC, ~1 million lawyers in India and not ONE to make a case? :slap:

Oh and I think Methodists are also a minority. Even more, a minor minority:whome:

nvishal
22 Nov 11,, 12:19
What is the reason behind posting this news in a defense and geopolitics thread?

cdude
22 Nov 11,, 23:34
And I always thought that the Chinese were sane people who didn't believe in religion


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zaOrXgjteE&feature=related

Are you saying religious people are insane?

And out of 1.3 billion Chinese, 50 is like, really significant.

lemontree
23 Nov 11,, 05:51
What is the reason behind posting this news in a defense and geopolitics thread?
Its got nothing to do with religion, but related to separatist activities in J&K. The "talibanisation" of a state is a matter of concern and automatically comes in the defence section.

nvishal
23 Nov 11,, 12:26
Its got nothing to do with religion, but related to separatist activities in J&K. The "talibanisation" of a state is a matter of concern and automatically comes in the defence section.
You're using some facts to put across your own agenda. You just made a case which tilts in favour of the christian guy and makes him look as a victim. That is rubbish.

Do you remember the cloud burst in ladakh(a buddhist region) a few months ago and how the bible nuts made a bee line towards it and took away a few kids back to j&k? No?

28 kids kidnapped from Leh rescued from Jammu hostel (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/28-kids-kidnapped-from-Leh-rescued-from-Jammu-hostel-/iplarticleshow/6805985.cms)

JAMMU: Twenty-eight children from Ladakh, including four girls, were rescued by the police from a Jammu hostel run by an NGO. Five members of Jammu-based NGO, Youth Movement for Peace (YMP), were arrested after parents complained that the children had been kidnapped.

According to sources, the children were probably brought to Jammu for religious conversion. Earlier, YMP had been accused of conversion and its funding had come under scanner. A police team led by DIG Farooq Khan had begun investigation. During the probe, YMP failed to give satisfactory reasons for bringing the Ladakh children to Jammu, said sources.
Why would any indian lawyer come forward to assist these opportunists?

hammer
23 Nov 11,, 18:01
You're using some facts to put across your own agenda. You just made a case which tilts in favour of the christian guy and makes him look as a victim. That is rubbish.


LT was an IA officer who served his country proudly. He does have an agenda, but its not a religious one. You should think twice before you even begin to guess his agenda.



Do you remember the cloud burst in ladakh(a buddhist region) a few months ago and how the bible nuts made a bee line towards it and took away a few kids back to j&k? No?
28 kids kidnapped from Leh rescued from Jammu hostel (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/28-kids-kidnapped-from-Leh-rescued-from-Jammu-hostel-/iplarticleshow/6805985.cms)
Why would any indian lawyer come forward to assist these opportunists?

The incident that you have quoted above was case of kidnapping and forced conversion and cannot be compared with the present scenario. There were no kidnappings in this case. And LT was actually pointing out the hypocrisy and intolerance of the fundamentalists.

Sharapthai
23 Nov 11,, 20:42
You're using some facts to put across your own agenda. You just made a case which tilts in favour of the christian guy and makes him look as a victim. That is rubbish.

Do you remember the cloud burst in ladakh(a buddhist region) a few months ago and how the bible nuts made a bee line towards it and took away a few kids back to j&k? No?

28 kids kidnapped from Leh rescued from Jammu hostel (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/28-kids-kidnapped-from-Leh-rescued-from-Jammu-hostel-/iplarticleshow/6805985.cms)


Why would any indian lawyer come forward to assist these opportunists?

Truth, if you can digest - Christians are the most progressive people of the world today. And it is because of Christians, that NE India is developed, however it is.

lemontree
24 Nov 11,, 09:21
You're using some facts to put across your own agenda.
...and what is my agenda?


You just made a case which tilts in favour of the christian guy and makes him look as a victim. That is rubbish.
I did'nt make a case. I just pointed out the hipocrisy of the Islamic society in general. They cannot tolerate evangalism in their majority areas but demanded a "community center" in New York, near ground zero.



Do you remember the cloud burst in ladakh(a buddhist region) a few months ago and how the bible nuts made a bee line towards it and took away a few kids back to j&k? No?

28 kids kidnapped from Leh rescued from Jammu hostel

JAMMU: Twenty-eight children from Ladakh, including four girls, were rescued by the police from a Jammu hostel run by an NGO. Five members of Jammu-based NGO, Youth Movement for Peace (YMP), were arrested after parents complained that the children had been kidnapped.
According to sources, the children were probably brought to Jammu for religious conversion. Earlier, YMP had been accused of conversion and its funding had come under scanner. A police team led by DIG Farooq Khan had begun investigation. During the probe, YMP failed to give satisfactory reasons for bringing the Ladakh children to Jammu, said sources.
Why would any indian lawyer come forward to assist these opportunists?
I would not defend such actions, these are nut cases and should be treated as such. They fall in the same category of the fanatics who riot and killed muslims and christians in Gujarat 2002 and Orissa.

A pity you hate us so much. BTW about 10% of gallantry awards in the armed forces have gone to christians in India and we make up only 2.2% of the population.

nvishal
24 Nov 11,, 15:26
Truth, if you can digest - Christians are the most progressive people of the world today.
NE is a bible nut country. I wouldn't call them progressive by any means. Last I checked, their societal culture is being taken over by korean soap operas.


And it is because of Christians, that NE India is developed, however it is.
NE is not developed. It cannot develop. Not until someone figure outs the security v/s development stalemate.


...and what is my agenda?
I'm still wondering why this news event appears in WAB. I don't know what else to think.


I did'nt make a case. I just pointed out the hipocrisy of the Islamic society in general. They cannot tolerate evangalism in their majority areas but demanded a "community center" in New York, near ground zero.
No culture tolerates evangelism. Each culture shows it disapproval towards it in its own unique way. The evangelists can run wild in punjab or tamil nadu but they can't do that in a muslim majority state. Those are cultural differences.

My point is, both the militants and the evangelists have agendas. Why then are you speaking for one of them?

The missionaries sure as well go around. The muslims are doing the same. What is so unfair here? That the muslims can preach in all corners of the world and the christians can't(in muslim world)? lol


I would not defend such actions, these are nut cases and should be treated as such.
Nut cases? My friend, this is a logical conclusion of monotheist practitioners.

This reminds me about a chat I had with a syrian christian from kerala just this last week. It was about how he thought christianity was the true path for salvation and how he didn't believe in other religions and thus practically can't respect them(the hindu religion) but he respected them as humans. A real googly.


A pity you hate us so much.
I don't hate you. Not until you try to push your religious beliefs on me.


BTW about 10% of gallantry awards in the armed forces have gone to christians in India and we make up only 2.2% of the population.
I'm(kind of) christian myself. But I know what hate is and I can't speak for it.

667medic
25 Nov 11,, 08:33
You're using some facts to put across your own agenda. You just made a case which tilts in favour of the christian guy and makes him look as a victim. That is rubbish.

Do you remember the cloud burst in ladakh(a buddhist region) a few months ago and how the bible nuts made a bee line towards it and took away a few kids back to j&k? No?

28 kids kidnapped from Leh rescued from Jammu hostel (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/28-kids-kidnapped-from-Leh-rescued-from-Jammu-hostel-/iplarticleshow/6805985.cms)

Guilt by association I guess. The evil Christians were trying to convert Buddhist by force, so Pastor Khanna must be guilty.

[/QUOTE]Why would any indian lawyer come forward to assist these opportunists?[/QUOTE]

Are you naive or stupid or both. If you can have lawyers and activists loudly defending terrorists and antisocial elements, there is no one to defend the Pastor.

BTW, you might want to address LT with a little more respect. He is a veteran and also a old member of the forum.

shashank
25 Nov 11,, 19:34
What tolerance can one expect when muslims are in majority?...contrast this to the innocent appeals made by them for a "community centre" in ground zero in NYC:mad:



I agree with you ,Islam has a lot to learn when it comes to respecting other religions.
As long as the conversions are voluntary ,there is nothing wrong in it.

nvishal
25 Nov 11,, 19:38
If you can have lawyers and activists loudly defending terrorists and antisocial elements, there is no one to defend the Pastor.
I don't understand the reason for all the woes being expressed for the pastor.


BTW, you might want to address LT with a little more respect. He is a veteran and also a old member of the forum.
I have no idea who LT is. And I still don't understand why this is being discussed on WAB.

lemontree
28 Nov 11,, 06:19
I don't understand the reason for all the woes being expressed for the pastor.
Equality in treatment is want is being discussed and the inability of the muslims in Kashmir to understand that. I will support the pastor as much as I support the right of the Pundits there.

I have no idea who LT is. And I still don't understand why this is being discussed on WAB.
I am a resident of your city and we are discussing this in WAB in the South Asian corner of the forum. You dont have to part of this discussion if you dont want to be.

troung
28 Nov 11,, 06:48
I have no idea who LT is. And I still don't understand why this is being discussed on WAB.

It is news, that is why. Good try with trying to get the topic locked BTW. Guy arrested by government for religious conversions in major international flash point is very relevant to this section of the forum.

lemontree
28 Nov 11,, 07:17
No culture tolerates evangelism. Each culture shows it disapproval towards it in its own unique way.
That is a known fact by the missionaries who have braved persecution since centuries. It has made no difference to them.

The evangelists can run wild in punjab or tamil nadu but they can't do that in a muslim majority state. Those are cultural differences.
Not cultural difference but cultural intolerance.

My point is, both the militants and the evangelists have agendas. Why then are you speaking for one of them?
Because my friend the pastor is not a miltant or a separatist, hence he deserves to be defended.

The missionaries sure as well go around. The muslims are doing the same. What is so unfair here?
The unfair part is - using shariat law in my country. That is unfair.

That the muslims can preach in all corners of the world and the christians can't(in muslim world)? lol
Its the hipocrisy of the muslim society that is being questioned, nothing else.


This reminds me about a chat I had with a syrian christian from kerala just this last week. It was about how he thought christianity was the true path for salvation and how he didn't believe in other religions and thus practically can't respect them(the hindu religion) but he respected them as humans. A real googly.
That is his personal view and he has unfortunately not been exposed to the different religions of India. My wife had a cultural shock, when she joined me in my unit. On sunday mornings, we went to the Gurudwara and not to a church. Slowly she adjusted and accepted the culture.


I don't hate you. Not until you try to push your religious beliefs on me.
Religion for me is my personal matter, I dont wear it on my sleeve. But neither is it palatable if someone questions my right to defend a pastor, when I spent the better part of my youth in combat operations to kill scum like Ajmal Kasab & Co, and protect people like you, your family and friends.

vsdoc
28 Nov 11,, 07:29
Beyond the already existing flashpoint that J&K is, there will always be a flashpoint when two religions that aggressively convert butt heads with each other. The Hindu majority is a lot more tolerant about this which is why it rarely makes news elsewhere. Till it sometimes reaches a violent breaking point. It is my personal belief that both religions need to cool off of the religious evangelism fervor and ardor stakes for the next few hundred years at least. Covert if you must. But let the person come to you out of genuine interest. Anything else is just treading thin ice, no matter how you disguise the effort.

lemontree
28 Nov 11,, 07:30
Good try with trying to get the topic locked BTW.
Now why would he want to do that??...is nvishal just a nom de plume :rolleyes:

667medic
28 Nov 11,, 14:26
No culture tolerates evangelism. Each culture shows it disapproval towards it in its own unique way. The evangelists can run wild in punjab or tamil nadu but they can't do that in a muslim majority state. Those are cultural differences.

FCKING why not. WTF do you mean by cultural difference. You can have a Zakir Naik openly convert people in Hindu heartlands but the same cannot be done in Muslim lands because of cultural difference. Is it really cultural difference or are you simply appeasing them. Appeasement only leads to more aggression.


I have no idea who LT is. And I still don't understand why this is being discussed on WAB.
Because this is the WAB. We will discuss anything we want as long as we all follow the rules. You got a problem with this thread use the report button.

Doktor
28 Nov 11,, 14:54
Beyond the already existing flashpoint that J&K is, there will always be a flashpoint when two religions that aggressively convert butt heads with each other. The Hindu majority is a lot more tolerant about this which is why it rarely makes news elsewhere. Till it sometimes reaches a violent breaking point. It is my personal belief that both religions need to cool off of the religious evangelism fervor and ardor stakes for the next few hundred years at least. Covert if you must. But let the person come to you out of genuine interest. Anything else is just treading thin ice, no matter how you disguise the effort.

Hmm... I don't support conversions, unless totally voluntary.

However, this is how things work and it is still voluntarily if they come to you and you decide to accept their faith. It is a fair game as if you reject ;)

Maybe the state can stop those conversions by banning such visits.

vsdoc
28 Nov 11,, 15:06
Hmm... I don't support conversions, unless totally voluntary.

However, this is how things work and it is still voluntarily if they come to you and you decide to accept their faith. It is a fair game as if you reject ;)

Maybe the state can stop those conversions by banning such visits.

You are talking theory out here. I am talking on the ground. Not in parliament or the court. It would be difficult for outsiders to realize the impact religion has on our social fabric that is still evolving in what is still a young nation. I have lived through religious riots as a child. Arson, bloodshed, curfews, suspicion, hatred, flag marches, rationing. I would prefer India and Indians to evolve our own method, that works for us, so that my children and theirs never have to again. And I am sure that we are on the right path.

Deltacamelately
28 Nov 11,, 15:29
I have no idea who LT is. And I still don't understand why this is being discussed on WAB.
Well to start with, he is a veteran from the Indian Army and a long time respected member of WAB. Somebody who has walked the talk. As about discussing this here, this place happens to be a geo-political and strategic discussion forum, quite suitable for this type of discussion and hence NOT your "momma's little kitchen garden".

TopHatter
29 Nov 11,, 01:24
Let's everybody keep cool, all right?

lemontree
29 Nov 11,, 06:10
Delta, where are you located PM me. Meet up if you pass by Mumbai sometime.

nvishal
02 Dec 11,, 14:17
FCKING why not. WTF do you mean by cultural difference. You can have a Zakir Naik openly convert people in Hindu heartlands but the same cannot be done in Muslim lands because of cultural difference. Is it really cultural difference or are you simply appeasing them. Appeasement only leads to more aggression.
Evangelism campaign is a natural trait among monotheist belief systems. It's an extreme game. The muslims have raised the stakes. The christians cannot cry foul. They can either play the game or quit.

Contrary to what you believe, the hindus are doing something about zakir naik and the bomb blasts. You need to understand that there is always a cost and a benefit.

lemontree
05 Dec 11,, 07:35
Contrary to what you believe, the hindus are doing something about zakir naik....
Could you give an idea was things done to stop him or hinder his activities in any way?


...and the bomb blasts. You need to understand that there is always a cost and a benefit.
Responding to the bomb blasts...in what way? If you mean that there will be blasts carried out by the hindu org, then they are no better than the mullahs. I wonder if they will ever make a dent in J&K.

generation_x
27 Mar 12,, 18:55
Responding to the bomb blasts...in what way? If you mean that there will be blasts carried out by the hindu org, then they are no better than the mullahs. I wonder if they will ever make a dent in J&K.Responding to the bomb blasts...in what way? If you mean that there will be blasts carried out by the hindu org, then they are no better than the mullahs. I wonder if they will ever make a dent in J&K.

Agreed if the hindu org carry out blasts they are no better than mullahs... But why do you think it will not make a dent in J&K. IMO it would be effective