Vatican stunned by Irish embassy closure

[troung]

Vatican stunned by Irish embassy closure
ReutersBy Philip Pullella | Reuters – 8 hrs ago
Vatican stunned by Irish embassy closure - Yahoo! News
VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Catholic Ireland's stunning decision to close its embassy to the Vatican is a huge blow to the Holy See's prestige and may be followed by other countries which feel the missions are too expensive, diplomatic sources said on Friday.

The closure brought relations between Ireland and the Vatican, once ironclad allies, to an all-time low following the row earlier this year over the Irish Church's handling of sex abuse cases and accusations that the Vatican had encouraged secrecy.

Ireland will now be the only major country of ancient Catholic tradition without an embassy to the Vatican.

"This is really bad for the Vatican because Ireland is the first big Catholic country to do this and because of what Catholicism means in Irish history," said a Vatican diplomatic source who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

He said Ireland informed the Vatican shortly before the announcement was made on Thursday night.

Dublin's foreign ministry said the embassy was being closed because "it yields no economic return" and that relations would be continued with an ambassador in Dublin.

The source said the Vatican was "extremely irritated" by the wording equating diplomatic missions with economic return, particularly as the Vatican sees its diplomatic role as promoting human values.

Diplomats said the Irish move might sway others to follow suit to save money because double diplomatic presences in Rome are expensive.

It was the latest crack in relations that had been seen as rock solid until a few years ago.

DAMNING REPORT

In July, the Vatican took the highly unusual step of recalling its ambassador to Ireland after Prime Minister Enda Kenny accused the Holy See of obstructing investigations into sexual abuse by priests.

The Irish parliament passed a motion deploring the Vatican's role in "undermining child protection frameworks" following publication of a damning report on the diocese of Cloyne.

The Cloyne report said Irish clerics concealed from the authorities the sexual abuse of children by priests as recently as 2009, after the Vatican disparaged Irish child protection guidelines in a letter to Irish bishops.

While Foreign Minister Eamon Gilmore denied the embassy closure was linked to the row over sexual abuse, Rome-based diplomats said they believed it probably played a major role.

"All things being equal, I really doubt the mission to the Vatican would have been on the list to get the axe without the fallout from the sex abuse scandal," one ambassador to the Vatican said, on condition of anonymity.

Cardinal Sean Brady, the head of the Catholic Church in Ireland, said he was profoundly disappointed by the decision and hoped the government would "revisit" it.

"This decision seems to show little regard for the important role played by the Holy See in international relations and of the historic ties between the Irish people and the Holy See over many centuries," Brady said in a statement.

The Vatican has been an internationally recognized sovereign city-state since 1929, when Italy compensated the Catholic Church for a vast area of central Italy known as the Papal States that was taken by the state at Italian unification in 1860.

It has diplomatic relations with 179 countries. About 80 have resident ambassadors and the rest are based in other European cities.

The Vatican guards its diplomatic independence fiercely and in the past has resisted moves by some countries to locate their envoys to the Holy See inside their embassies to Italy.

Dublin said it was closing its mission to the Vatican along with those in Iran and East Timor to help meet its fiscal goals under an EU-IMF bailout. The closures will save the government 1.25 million euros ($1.725 million) a year.

(Additional reporting by Carmel Crimmins and Conor Humphries in Dublin; Editing by Tim Pearce)

[dave lukins]

The very last Country I would have expected.

[snapper]

The closure of some of their Embassies has been planned for a while. I believe some others were or are for the chop, including Iran. I believe the UK will act for them in Iran.

[crooks]

It's a welcome move - an embassy in the Vatican is money down the toilet, we have an embassy in the city that engulfs the Vatican on all sides, if they need us they can trot across to it. Irish taxpayers (many of whom are not Catholic) should not be asked to pay for diplomatic relations with a theocracy, Christian or Muslim, especially when the government is gutting pay and services for working families to pay for private bank debts (though the Holy See has been excellent and articulate on the need for a financial transaction tax and a global banking regulatory system, I tip my hat to him).

Furthermore if it was a case of the Tánaiste wanting to send a message over child abuse, the public will be with him on that. Why should we have diplomatic relations with a statelet that protects child rapists? The Vatican has messed up relations with the Republic of Ireland all on it's own, they can sit in what they spewed.

[Pedicabby]

Why does a tourist attraction need to have an embassy?

[Bigfella]

The very last Country I would have expected.

This actually comes as no great shock to me Dave. Even before it found out that the Vatican was white-anting its child protection guidelines relations were poor. Crooks will have details, but I'm pretty sure it was uncovered that the Vatican had been using its diplomatic wing to shield accused (& perhaps even guilty) priests. When it was uncovered that the Vatican was telling Church authorities to ignore governmet guidelines on child protection the Irish PM went ballistic. As Crooks said, the Vatican has only itself to blame. it has behaved appallingly & treated the Irish government & people wiht contempt. I hope this is the start of a move that ends with the vatican losing all diplomatic status. For the moment cloding embassies will do nicely.

[dave lukins]

I knew about the scandals and it was clear to a blind man that the Vatican didn't seem interested at all but I never thought Ireland of all places would close its Embassy. I hope this is a wake up call for the Vatican hiarachy.

[Doktor]

I think everyone should close their embassies in Vatican and cut the diplomatic relations. Then Italy can seize the Vatican funds and save the euro

[Bigfella]

I knew about the scandals and it was clear to a blind man that the Vatican didn't seem interested at all but I never thought Ireland of all places would close its Embassy. I hope this is a wake up call for the Vatican hiarachy.

Hey, a guy can always hope. ;)

[crooks]

This actually comes as no great shock to me Dave. Even before it found out that the Vatican was white-anting its child protection guidelines relations were poor. Crooks will have details, but I'm pretty sure it was uncovered that the Vatican had been using its diplomatic wing to shield accused (& perhaps even guilty) priests. When it was uncovered that the Vatican was telling Church authorities to ignore governmet guidelines on child protection the Irish PM went ballistic. As Crooks said, the Vatican has only itself to blame. it has behaved appallingly & treated the Irish government & people wiht contempt. I hope this is the start of a move that ends with the vatican losing all diplomatic status. For the moment cloding embassies will do nicely.

Absolutely correct on all points. It was building for a long time (first manifested in the silent revolution of thinning pews, then the activism of those abused gaining overwhelming public backing) but the real straw that broke the camel's back was the Cloyne Report - this showed the Bishop of Cloyne John Magee actively ignored Irish law and sheltered priests from accusations, not even passing them on to the Garda Síochána. Many of these priests are still alive, were active in the community for years after their crimes and one even officiated the wedding of a man he raped as a child. This went up as far as the Vatican itself which displayed blatant disregard and called the law "something to be considered" (the report is availdible here - http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0713/cloyne_report.pdf) rather than something binding. The Vatican has consistently (up until a couple of years ago) undermined the law and hoped that the Irish state will not pursue justice. I think they would have been right 50 years ago, but not anymore.

I knew about the scandals and it was clear to a blind man that the Vatican didn't seem interested at all but I never thought Ireland of all places would close its Embassy. I hope this is a wake up call for the Vatican hiarachy.

Ireland has changed rapidly Dave - when I was born homosexuality and divorce were illegal, most politicians bid on who could be the most pro-life and the Vatican was seen as a spiritual, if not literal leader of the Irish people, with the elected government as something of a formality. When the Minister of Health in the 50s Noel Browne tried to introduce the Mother and Child health scheme (free healthcare for all mothers and children up to 16) the Catholic Church and conservatives in the medical profession declared it contrary to Catholic social thinking (and "communist") and it was sunk, with the Minister accepting the Church's view....and apologising! Countless examples, from birth control and condoms (only availdable in the 6 counties, leading to the phenomenom of the "Condom train" by Southern women to Belfast) to the above-mentioned tyrannical and hysterical opposition to civil divorce and the rights of people to love who they want had a huge effect on Irish civil society (or lack thereof) and shamed our Republic as exactly what the Huns declared it in the twenties, one under "Rome Rule".

Today 75% of us support gay marriage, abortion is almost certain to be at least somewhat liberalized and there will be a referendum next year on inserting childrens rights into our constitution. The nation is now thoroughly secular and extremely angry at the Vatican and other religious institutions that have long judged Ireland's single mothers, "bastard" children and gay "abomination" while sheltering the only real deviants of Irish society, the ones that abused their power and robbed children of their innocence.

We can give them no words or comfort, what they suffered will never be able to be given back and it's insulting to suggest otherwise. We can however ensure that the next generation live without broken lives and the silent shame and self-hatred that the Irish brand of Catholic Sharia has brought to those who stood by and deferred.

[Bigfella]

Crooks,

Are there reports dealing wihht some of the other issues that have some to light recently? One I recall was the Magdelene laundrys, another might have been orphanages. I seem to recall that there were findings that these places bordered on medieval & had sweeping powers over those judged 'unfit' (single mothers, orphans, bastard children). I also recall that these abuses continued until relatively recently - not the 'dim distant past' so beloved of those who leap to the church's defence.

I suspect you had that familiar sinking feeling in your stomach when you read recently revealed reports that the church in spain colluded with Franco to steal tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of children from 'undesireables', including people with political views the state didn't like. I suspect that this is the tip of the iceberg & that when the Church finally loses its influence over authorities in places such as Latin America & Africa there will be more horrors to reveal.

[dave lukins]

Crooks,

Are there reports dealing wihht some of the other issues that have some to light recently? One I recall was the Magdelene laundrys, another might have been orphanages. I seem to recall that there were findings that these places bordered on medieval & had sweeping powers over those judged 'unfit' (single mothers, orphans, bastard children). I also recall that these abuses continued until relatively recently - not the 'dim distant past' so beloved of those who leap to the church's defence.

I was born at the end of the 40's and was in that system for ten years so I have first hand knowledge of the goings on in at least two catholic orphanages. I am in touch will a group who still talk about those goings on and the mistreatment that was rife at that time. When I left that system I immediately dropped all faiths like a hot brick and will never go back.

[crooks]

Apologies for the long post but wanted to deal with this as it interests me extensively.

Crooks,

Are there reports dealing wihht some of the other issues that have some to light recently? One I recall was the Magdelene laundrys, another might have been orphanages. I seem to recall that there were findings that these places bordered on medieval & had sweeping powers over those judged 'unfit' (single mothers, orphans, bastard children). I also recall that these abuses continued until relatively recently - not the 'dim distant past' so beloved of those who leap to the church's defence.

On other reports yes indeed - the other two that have been published in the last few years are the Ryan Report(1), which dealt with child abuse (both physical and sexual) in industrial schools and is absolutely appalling reading, and the Murphy report(2), which dealt with sexual abuse within the Archdiocese of Dublin and prompted several resignations. The wikipedia pages are more digestable in terms of overall findings(3)(4).

On the Magdalene laundries (named of course after the reformed prostitute they hoped single mothers, as well as those too beautiful or disabled, would become) they are covered in the Ryan report but there has been no seperate report, though one is in progress that will be published in 2012 dealing with state involvement and neglect. The laundries were not only a prison by technical definition, in practice they also used unwaged labour in a form that could be described accurately as slavery - notable clients of this "service" included Guinness and Áras an Uachtaráin (The Presidential House). The expectation was slaving over shirts and sheets for no pay would teach moral standards to those "desperately in need of such". It was like the Lowell Mill Girls in reverse, the complete subjegation of young and vulnerable women, with it's own physical and sexual abuse scandals. The abuses themselves came to light in the 90s when an order of nuns were selling their property and an unmarked mass grave of 155 young women was discovered. And you are quite right about this not being ancient history, the last laundry closed in 1996. Most victims are quite elderly as the peak of abuse was in the 40s, 50s and 60s.

One surprising note is that the Church has very few defenders left - there used to be a solid amount concentrated in the sheltered media and conservative parties however all but the hardiest have decided that as it's almost impossible to read the reports or accounts of what happened and come out with even a just slightly negative view of the Church and its actions it's best they shut up and hope it goes away. Or the other trump card, say those who are raising it have a secular agenda and want to purge Ireland of the Church (as one priest who compared the Taoiseach to Hitler said). That the Taoiseach is a practicing Catholic and a conservative exposes this for what it is.

(1)Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse
(2)http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Part%2...s/Part%201.pdf
(3)Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(4)Murphy Report - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I suspect you had that familiar sinking feeling in your stomach when you read recently revealed reports that the church in spain colluded with Franco to steal tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of children from 'undesireables', including people with political views the state didn't like. I suspect that this is the tip of the iceberg & that when the Church finally loses its influence over authorities in places such as Latin America & Africa there will be more horrors to reveal.

Absolutely, that itself showed the Church stepping as it so often did into the political realm - that period of Spanish history is fascinating, as you'd be well aware following the Spanish Civil War there was the "White Terror" in which the victorious fascists and the (extremely intimately and powerfully influential on the Generalisimo) Catholic Church collaberated to murder by most estimates at least 140,000 (likely far higher) for political views. This included those who faught for the democratically elected government, trade unionists, members of left-wing parties, athiests and feminists. The abduction of children from "Marxist" (usually after their parents were butchered) backgrounds was rampant, as were cases of forced abortion, rape of Republican women and exile. A memorable example of Giles Tremblett in his decent book Ghosts of Spain is that of the children of the exiled government who were in London were they to return - Falange recommended Asturian children, often from a Marxist background, acted like animals and were to be shot or beaten, while Basque children were good, nicely behaved Catholics to be given new families. Torturous experiments were carried out using racist and idiotic eugenics to try and find a Anarchist or Marxist gene (that would then presumably be obliterated), as well as giving the Church executive authority over morality. In other words Francos Spain was a textbook example of what happens when right wing authoritarian religious and political groups are in total domination.

There's a lot of water under Spains bridges and more than Ireland there are powerful forces that want to make sure none of it comes out. In care homes across Spain there are still men living who commited countless atrocities. They deserve to die in prison, but justice will not be done, same as the reports above (while excellent) were not allowed recommend prosecution of the parties named or discovered. We already know much of what went (and is still) on in the developing world - the total lack of accountability will also someday come to light as these countries gain a more sure footing but yes, when that does burst it will be a tsunami far larger in scale than anything thus far.

[Parihaka]

I was born at the end of the 40's and was in that system for ten years so I have first hand knowledge of the goings on in at least two catholic orphanages. I am in touch will a group who still talk about those goings on and the mistreatment that was rife at that time. When I left that system I immediately dropped all faiths like a hot brick and will never go back.

My congratulations Dave on becoming the obviously good man that you are. :)

[YellowFever]

My congratulations Dave on becoming the obviously good man that you are. :)

You're an excellent man, Mr. lukins!!

But you gotta do a better job of picking your friends.










*cough*tankie*cough*tankie*