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When are people going to learn, you can have a pit bull or a kid not both

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  • When are people going to learn, you can have a pit bull or a kid not both

    S.F. boy, 12, killed by pet dog

    OFFICERS SHOOT PIT BULL TO ENTER APARTMENT WHERE YOUNGSTER HAD BEEN FATALLY MAULED

    By Sandra Gonzales and Kellie Schmitt

    Mercury News

    After a frantic 911 call from a hysterical woman, San Francisco police found a 12-year-old boy mauled to death by the family's pit bulls in their apartment near Golden Gate Park on Friday.

    Police arrived at the small apartment building on Lincoln Way to find one of the two dogs -- a fawn-colored female -- blocking the entrance to the apartment. An officer shot it dead to gain entry, San Francisco police Sgt. Neville Gittens said.

    Once inside, paramedics attempted to resuscitate the boy but failed.

    Police would not release his name, but the principal at Roosevelt Middle School identified him as Nicholas Faibish, a sixth-grader whom friends called ``Nicky'' or ``Nick.''

    A second pit bull that may have played a part in the attack also was in the apartment and was taken into custody by San Francisco Animal Care & Control. Police say that each dog weighed about 80 pounds.

    Outside the two-bedroom apartment, officers stood guard and cordoned off the area as sympathetic passersby placed bouquets of flowers on the sidewalk in front of the Selva Vista apartment building across from Golden Gate Park in the city's Inner Sunset district.

    Neighbors said the boy lived at the complex with his brother and sister, his parents and their two pit bulls, Rex and Ella.

    ``He was a very bouncy and friendly, freckled young man -- always with a smile,'' said Diane Panagotacos, the principal at Roosevelt. ``Every interaction I had with him was a pleasant one. It's a shocking tragedy.''

    Panagotacos said Nicholas was not at school Friday, and she believed the family was preparing to move from the area.

    Anne Sausser, whose boyfriend lives in the same building, said she often heard the dogs in the apartment below his but was shocked to learn of the brutal attack.

    ``They never bothered anyone. They seemed sweet,'' said Sausser of the pit bulls. She described the children as ``crazy kids always playing.'' Thursday night, however, Sausser recalled hearing a scuffle between the dogs and the children.

    San Francisco police Sgt. Jeremiah Morgan said he did not know whether the dogs were provoked, nor would he provide further details about the attack.

    No one has been taken into custody, but detectives ``are conducting a homicide investigation,'' Police Chief Heather Fong said.

    Not long ago, neighbors told the Associated Press, Nicholas and his brother found a patch of wet cement where the sidewalk was being repaired and scrawled the words ``Rex SF.'' Neighbors said the boys wanted to immortalize the name of their dog.

    Friday's dog mauling was reminiscent of the attack in another San Francisco apartment building four years ago.

    In January 2001, a pair of 120-pound Presa Canario dogs attacked Diane Whipple, a 33-year-old lacrosse coach, in the hallway of her San Francisco apartment building in a brutal case that drew national attention.

    Whipple's death led to the rare second-degree murder conviction of the dog's owner, Marjorie Knoller. She and her husband, Robert Noel, were also found guilty of involuntary manslaughter and of having a mischievous animal that killed a human.

    In the wake of her death and the pit bull attack on 10-year-old Shawn Jones of Richmond in 2001, lawmakers toughened penalties against owners of vicious dogs. Shawn was disfigured when he was mauled by three pit bulls.

    As of 2002, however, dog owners could face a felony charge regardless of whether the attack results in death and if prosecutors could prove the dog has had a history of violence. Previously, it was considered a felony only if the attack proved fatal.

    http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...a/11814584.htm

  • #2
    People really should police their dogs. I also have to say, it's more about the upbringing of the dog, than it is the breed though. I know several pit bulls that are gentle as kittens.
    No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
    I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
    even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
    He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Confed999
      People really should police their dogs. I also have to say, it's more about the upbringing of the dog, than it is the breed though. I know several pit bulls that are gentle as kittens.
      Good post. No dog is inherently or gentically evil unless it is poorly bred or has a mental illness. I hate people who have to have their balls on a leash. Don't get a dog to strengthen your image. Because chances are, the dog is going to be poorly kept and something tragic like this will occur.

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      • #4
        Fervently disagree. Pit bulls are bred for certain charachteristics. Almost all breeds have characteristics, and are bred to perpetuate them. Hell, that's what AKC and other organizations are all about: deciding what characteristics make up each breed. And this is NOT limited to appearance only. So don't claim that it's all about the way they were raised. That only goes so far in minimizing what innumerable selection-generations of pit bulls have wrought.

        And what the result has been is an inherently dangerous breed.

        The characteristics that they are bred for do not mix well in family settings. And the people that want pit bulls want them EXACTLY because of those characteristics.

        We used to live backed up to what can only be described as a black ghetto when we were stationed at Fort Meade, Maryland. And almost every family that had a dog had a pit bull, because they had that 'ghetto' image: a tough, viscious, muscular, bad-ass dawg that said something about its owner.

        I hate 'em. I thought about killing the ones in my neighborhood, because they were straight-up DANGEROUS to my family and our dog. I believe they are ALL bad dogs, only some of them haven't had the opportunity to prove it yet. That's not true of other breeds to the same extent, and even when other breeds DO attack a human, it is almost NEVER as serious an event - all due to the characteristics shared by the entire breed.

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        • #5
          Husky-Malamute mixes have been known to attack and eat human beings. The Inuits have a practise of leaving their dogs on an island during the summer and feed them occasionally before rounding them up for the winter. When you approach such an island, SOP is always have your weapon at the ready, just in case the dogs had turned bad.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Bluesman
            Fervently disagree. Pit bulls are bred for certain charachteristics. Almost all breeds have characteristics, and are bred to perpetuate them. (snipped)..
            On target with those statements Bluesman. I disagree with the "kill'em all" part but you are on target with the rest of the post. Pit's are bred to lock-up and shake. They are an inherently dangerous breed. I have owned and trained several. They are the only breed that requires a break- stick to train. My Pitt's were also gentle as kittens but that never fooled me. As I knew they could be hell on paws at any moment. I like them but no longer own them. With the grandkids around regularly I now have a couple Heeler’s and a gentle as a kitten Australian Shepherd. As my dogs pack-up with our family and me we (adult family members) still do not allow the children under the age of 8 or so to be alone with the rest of the pack. Now and then the higher pack members (dogs above the younger children in the dogs minds) may grow irritated and bite or even attack. The attack could get carried away and the older pack members destroy the younger annoying pack member. Breed has to do with the amount of damage dealt, its quickness and ferocity. Pitts are top of the heap when considering how much damage can be dealt and how quickly. The only thing for certain when training or living with large dogs or packs of dogs is…You can always trust a dog to be a dog.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
              Husky-Malamute mixes have been known to attack and eat human beings. The Inuits have a practise of leaving their dogs on an island during the summer and feed them occasionally before rounding them up for the winter. When you approach such an island, SOP is always have your weapon at the ready, just in case the dogs had turned bad.

              I came close to mentioning Huskies in my above post. They are another wonderful breed that can be very dangerous. Beautiful as well, a nice breed, not for environments with children. I like them and have a son who presently raises them.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Abbott
                I now have a couple Heeler’s and a gentle as a kitten Australian Shepherd.
                My dog is Australian Shep/Beagle. He's old and slow now but has always been a wonderfully sweet dog. I would get another Aussie Shep mix in a heartbeat.

                Pics here

                And I love dogs too but I don't trust pit bulls. I believe that you can raise a gentle Rot, but not a gentle Pit. At best you have a somewhat-domesticated killer beast that could turn in a flash.

                -dale

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                • #9
                  If you have children, Golden Retrievers are the best all around pets. I have two.

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                  • #10
                    "And what the result has been is an inherently dangerous breed."

                    I am quite friendly with several pitbulls, and had one myself. They really are very loving dogs so long as they're raised properly. My brothers Pit bull and my buddies pit bull are among the two most loving dogs i've ever had the pleasure of meeting. Both are also fantastic with children.

                    Abuse one and don't feed it, and like any large dog, it will become a voracious tempermental untrusting beast. Par for the course when considering that when you do that to a person you end up with a sociopath.

                    The same is true for rotweillers and dobermans, both of which i've had the pleasure to call friends.

                    There is absolutely nothing inherently unstable or dangerous about pit bulls. It's the owners, and nothing but . Strays also can be very dangerous, but they tend to have been 'born in a dumpster' type dogs.

                    I've shot a few of those in pre-emptive self defense here in Philly when working some of the less pleasant parts of the city(don't tell the cops, lol).
                    Last edited by Bill; 06 Jun 05,, 15:43.

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                    • #11
                      I am quite friendly with several pitbulls, and had one myself. They really are very loving dogs so long as they're raised properly. My brothers Pit bull and my buddies pit bull are among the two most loving dogs i've ever had the pleasure of meeting. Both are also fantastic with children.
                      I agree. Pitt's can be very loving and loyal, I like them myself. But they are still dogs. The danger may decrease with the way the are raised. Do not fool yourself; it never goes away. A dog is still a dog no matter who raises it or how. Leaving children un-supervised with any large dog is wrong. Leaving them with inherently dangerous dogs (Pitt's are bred for damage) is not only dangerous but also foolish.

                      As you are a very highly trained individual in your field I would suggest you consider if you were as highly trained in a different field (dog handling) you would hold a different opinion. Not changing the fact that you like and admire Pitt Terriers but the fact that a dogs mind is to small to entrust it with the safety of children. Anything less is un-acceptable.
                      Last edited by Abbott; 06 Jun 05,, 17:07.

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                      • #12
                        I would have thought so. However, like all things, there are exceptions. I "inherited" a shepard/husky/lab mix (the old man said that there might be some pit in him also but I don't see it). The dog was a loud barker which was what I wanted around my Belgian horses (just to annoy them to move - no Belgian is afraid of any dog) and I had thought she had a mean bone in her.

                        My #1 Daughter a couple weeks ago got away from her mother when she was unloading groceries and stray into the dog pen. The dog was yelping and shivering like there's no tomorrow in the corner. Litterally scared to death of my little girl.

                        I now describe my dog as 30% shep, 30% husk, 30% lab and 100% wuss.
                        Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 06 Jun 05,, 16:59.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Julie
                          If you have children, Golden Retrievers are the best all around pets. I have two.
                          I like them also. As far as being “the best pets” that is definitely opinion, not fact. Golden’s are known for having a gentle mouth and a friendly demeanor a very nice breed, I like them. Heck, I like them all. I had a German Shorthair Golden mix that was a fabulous hunter and became one of the meanest dogs I have ever owned. I sure miss him. No matter how a dog is raised it does not change the fact that it is still a dog with K-9 instincts. These instincts will never be bred out of them, no matter how much we love and care for our friends and pets.

                          As a mother you have an overpowering feeling to protect your children. That feeling reaches beyond your mind into your being, that is “instinct” drawn from eons of human self-preservation. Now imagine the power of instincts tugging at a dogs mind. Keep in mind the IQ of dogs have been measured to 10, very smart for a K-9 not much for a human. These instincts tug at your dog always. Children are considered subordinate pack members by adult dogs by their actions. They will be treated as such and there is nothing you can do about it, it is instinct.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
                            I would have thought so. However, like all things, there are exceptions. I "inherited" a shepard/husky/lab mix (the old man said that there might be some pit in him also but I don't see it). The dog was a loud barker which was what I wanted around my Belgian horses (just to annoy them to move - no Belgian is afraid of any dog) and I had thought she had a mean bone in her.

                            My #1 Daughter a couple weeks ago got away from her mother when she was unloading groceries and stray into the dog pen. The dog was yelping and shivering like there's no tomorrow in the corner. Litterally scared to death of my little girl.

                            I now describe my dog as 30% shep, 30% husk, 30% lab and 100% wuss.
                            That fear could easily transmit into a defensive bite. If there is Pitt that bite could easily be a lock-up. If that lock-up is to soft body tissue in a critical location then that child could be seriously injured. Any scared dog can hurt a person. The larger and more physical breeds of course being able to inflict more damage. Pitt’s are not bad animals; they are just capable of inflicting greater damage much more quickly.
                            Last edited by Abbott; 06 Jun 05,, 17:18.

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                            • #15
                              I realize that. It was just an image that I cannot get out of my head. This dog not afraid of 700+ lbs Belgians cowering in front of a little girl. I've since changed the locks on the pen and re-enforced the fence more so to keep my girl out then to keep my dog in.

                              Do I trust my dog alone with my little girl? No. Do I get a laugh out of that image. Yes, I do.

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