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  • India's anti-corruption movement

    India Says No to $80 Toilet Paper| WSJ Op-ed | Sep 3 2011

    An anticorruption campaign has given voice to a growing middle class tired of public indignities

    By GURCHARAN DAS

    A year ago, no one in India could have imagined that cabinet ministers, powerful politicians, senior officials and CEOs would be in jail now, awaiting trial for corruption. The credit for this dramatic shift belongs in no small part to the anticorruption movement of a 74-year-old activist, Anna Hazare, supported by determined justices of the Supreme Court, an exceptional auditor general, rival television channels in search of "breaking news" and, crucially, a newly assertive Indian middle class. The long-term impact of this movement is unclear. It could lead to something profoundly good, or it could destabilize the whole system.

    A series of corruption scandals has swept India over the past year. These include graft-ridden purchases for the 2010 Commonwealth Games in Delhi, for which rolls of toilet paper were purchased for $80 each; the government's sale to favored companies of licenses for the mobile-phone spectrum, at prices so low that they are estimated to have lost taxpayers somewhere between $10 billion and $40 billion; and the grabbing of expensive apartments in Mumbai by politicians, officials and generals on prime property that was meant for war widows.

    Fighting this pervasive corruption has been Mr. Hazare, a villager in a white rural cap who evokes the figure of Mahatma Gandhi and has successfully emulated Gandhi's protest tactics of hunger strikes and peaceful marches. Mr. Hazare launched his first hunger strike, a five-day fast, in April. As a result, the government agreed to draft a bill creating an anticorruption agency that would investigate complaints against officials, but the bill was weak, and Mr. Hazare rejected it.

    His second hunger strike, which he staged last month in Delhi, drew tens of thousands of supporters and spurred the government to agree to discuss his own version of the bill—a considerable victory, since politicians of all parties have stonewalled the creation of an anticorruption agency for 40 years.

    Many officials were taken by surprise by Mr. Hazare's support from the middle class, which is almost a third of India's population today, up from 8% in 1980. Since reforms in 1991, India has become the world's second-fastest-growing economy, and the middle class is expected to become 50% by 2022.

    There are still vast areas of horrible deprivation, but a significant number of Indians have experienced a palpable betterment in their lives. As a result, the discourse of the nation, or what Alexis de Tocqueville called "habits of the mind," are changing. People have begun to believe that their future is open, not predetermined, and can be altered by their own actions.

    The same thing happened in the West after 1800. In her book "Bourgeois Dignity: Why Economics Can't Explain the Modern World," Deirdre McCloskey argues that the West rose not only because of economic factors but because the discourse about markets and innovation changed. People became encouraging of entrepreneurs. New perceptions and expectations emerged.

    In the same way, the rise of India and China has brought dignity to their middle classes. Ordinary conversations over chai in India are now about markets and focus on the contrast between private success and public failure. While the private sector provides cutting-edge services and products to the world, the roads outside are potholed, electricity is patchy and water supply erratic. The difference between the two worlds is accountability: In private life, if you don't work, you don't eat; in public life, jobs are effectively for life. Indians believe that they are rising despite the state and are often heard to say that "India grows at night, when the government sleeps."

    India's electoral politics do not cater to this aspiring middle class. Every party treats the voter like a victim, focusing on welfare programs or historical wrongs. Politicians have not realized that with high growth, mobility and a demographic revolution, aspiring Indians will soon overtake those who see themselves as victims. The person who got India's 851,695,668th cellphone in June was a village migrant, and no one in the country's political life captures his hopes. An op-ed about Mr. Hazare's protest movement in the Times of India had just the right title: "It's the middle class, stupid."

    For too long Indians have been denied dignity by public officials who ride in cars topped with flashing lights and make citizens wait endlessly in gloomy offices, placing miles of red tape in their way to get even basic documents. The newly assertive middle class will no longer put up with this. As the social anthropologist Shiv Vishwanathan says, "The consumer revolution that we have experienced in the past two decades has told the citizen that he can expect a higher quality of governance."

    It would be a shame if Mr. Hazare's movement contributed to undermining India's finely crafted constitutional system, which has made its democracy the envy of the developing world. Street protests and hunger strikes can gain attention, but legislation requires working within the system, in the messy details of parliamentary negotiation.

    Mr. Hazare's bill is needed medicine, but it is being administered long after the sickness appeared. Clearing swamps is a better way to tackle malaria than administering quinine.

    To prevent day-to-day corruption, Mr. Hazare and others like him need to work on reforming the rules of India's bureaucracy—creating transparent decision making, reducing discretion, shrinking opportunities to manipulate public rules for private gain and penalizing delays (the favored tactic of a corrupt bureaucrat). Indian bureaucracy needs to be transformed from a system based on the benefits of seniority to one that rewards good performance and punishes poor outcomes.

    India's churning reflects a deep middle-class anger with pervasive graft in the government, police and judiciary. Bourgeois dignity may well hold the key to this Indian puzzle, but it needs to find expression within the bounds of the country's constitutional system. Street theater seldom makes for lasting reform—and sometimes brings down the good with bad.

    —Mr. Das is the author of "The Difficulty of Being Good" and "India Unbound."

  • #2
    There may be some changes,But will not fundamentally solve the problem!

    Comment


    • #3
      ^^ to be precise it is not a problem that can be eliminate totally, it is a human nature and can be and should be checked for good. It is not a solution within itself but it can be termed as a general public awareness, a political awareness of the people of the state to introduce better laws to fight corruption and upliftment of the society to some extend. A few notable point of the movement are:

      Their were no political intention of that movement, the issue have been raised by social activist and it earned a nation wide support for the cause, shaking the political structure of the state but through a non violent protest, as most domestic agenda are raised to earn political mileage, a success and popularism of a social activist in such a large scale with active participation is not always seen in the nation without a political intention behind.

      Let their be any reason for the government accepting to introduce an anti corruption bill (political benefit), it is a victory of the general people in a democracy and their urge to fight corruption, it is not the 'bill' that will fight corruption but the 'will' of the people to fight against corruption. In a less term to the least it can be said as a victory of the common people, a good sign for a democratic nation.

      Even though the government was more or less against to accept the bill as a whole, it was compelled to accept it and their was no way to turn around or dissolve the movement as the non violent and peaceful public agitation within the rule of law of the nation.

      If this would not be the way, their might not be an other way around. Maybe it is not a fool proof solution to check corruption, but surely it set an example of the fundamentals of progress and success of fair democratic practice and also highlight an example of success of non violent means of the people to bring change and fight against autocratic practices of the rulers.

      It was not aimed at any particular political party but against the political power, that any party can misuse when they are in power, it was a fight to change the system of governance.

      A few area of governance which was beyond the reach for a common man to check corruption and stay vigilant is the area where this bill will have its maximum influence. Although Indian democracy practices division of powers in between different administrative machinery (legislative, judiciary and bureaucrats) to keep a check in proper functioning of state administration, the political legislature is the most powerful among them and have their influence in other administrative systems, the new introduction of to be made by this anti-corruption bill will keep a check also upon the political legislature included which was till now enjoying privilege upon the entire system.

      This will definitely improve the working of the system of the nation which was its prime concern.

      Not that it will check corruption in every sphere of life

      Comment


      • #4
        Agree for the most part. It took me a while to warm up to this movement as the initial signs were confusing. The strident demands could easily be mistaken for something else. The pressure tactics used where what stumped me and learnt later to ignore them in the interests of seeing the big picture.

        This movement started off because of rising inflation & the seeming brazeness in which public officials get away with graft. Add to that a lack of accountability from bureaucrats which the common man faces and it was only a matter of time before somebody decided to make a stand. Grievance redressal i would say is the primary demand from the ppl and the end goal of this movement. Corruption is the banner under which to rally everybody.

        We like to boast about how India is the world's biggest democracy but in reality it has become a stagnant democracy with an arrogant bureaucracy, an unaccountable bureaucracy, which is unable to effectively address public grievances. Ppl feel the system only cares about them once every five years and once MPs are voted into office they can pretty much ignore the ppl and lord over them instead. Our leaders are not afraid of the ppl and they ought to be.

        Its true that there was no political gain for any party and in effect its a movement against the establishment in general. You could say Team Anna replaced the opposition and directly went head to head with the establishment. So neither establishment nor opposition looks very good here. Both appear to be just as useless. How nice to be able to talk about issues for once as Indians instead of identity whose faultlines the political parties always seek to exploit to create self-serving divisions.

        The idea here is to setup an independent org similar to HK's ICAC (Investigating Chinese ancient customs) Seems these same customs are very common in India as well

        An ombudsman that will be empowered to act rather than merely advise.

        Comment


        • #5
          It doesnt matter any more.
          Congress has won once more and have defused Anna by promising a whole lot of stuff in the proposed bill.
          I highly doubt any of his demands will be met.
          Congress will pass a very diluted bill and the party in power will always ensure that whoever occupies the Lok Pal post will be a pliant supporter.
          Anna will fast and cry but nothing will change.
          For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
            It doesnt matter any more.
            Well if a stronger bill than the one orginally put out by govt is passed then one could argue its a win. Even if we get 10% of what TA setout to acheive its still an improvement over the status quo.

            Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
            Congress has won once more and have defused Anna by promising a whole lot of stuff in the proposed bill.
            Am having trouble seeing Congress having won anything here other than a well needed respite. They came across as a bunch of bumbling idiots. And this is supposed to be the suave, smooth & sophicated party, the GOP. Just read how Karan tears into the Law Minister over his party's handling of this affair.

            Govt hasn't made any mistakes: Khurshid | Devils Advocate | Aug 28 2011

            Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
            I highly doubt any of his demands will be met.
            Well what are those demands
            - A citizens charter be drawn up. These already exists in some form in a few states already, i see no problem with this one.

            - Secondly, that there be state lok ayuktas. This one runs into federal problems ie centre imposing itself over the states. All centre has to do is implement a model law and its upto the states to follow up. Ppl in those states take it upon themselves to push their govts into acting on it. Same thing happened with RTI and that was a much longer fight.

            - Third and last one, that the lower bureaucracy be included in the scope of the ombudsman. This one is up for debate, but its really the most important one. This is the only way that the common man ever gets any grievance redressal. Its not as impossible as its made out. I expect TA to go hammer & tongs over this one.

            Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
            Congress will pass a very diluted bill and the party in power will always ensure that whoever occupies the Lok Pal post will be a pliant supporter.
            see first comment. RTI had over 150 amendments added when it was with the standing committee.

            Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
            Anna will fast and cry but nothing will change.
            Thats what i thought in April ;)

            Understand that this is the man that got jailed on Aug 16 only to be released by nightfall the same day, who refused to exit jail until he got a suitable location sizeable enough to allow his protest. And after two weeks, the PM as well as parlliament had given a 'sense of the house' statement that both houses were in agreement in principle as to his three demands, not to mention offering their salutes & appeals to this 7th std dropout, retired army truck driver with a short temper to end his fast
            Last edited by Double Edge; 11 Sep 11,, 19:55.

            Comment


            • #7
              DE, I don't think you understood my comment.
              Congress has waited Anna out and he has now ended his fast. His momentum is gone.

              Now it will be too difficult to mobilize the public once more. The bill will stagnate in parliament, many debates will be held, diluting provisions will be added.
              The common people dont have the subtlety to see what they will do.

              Well what are those demands
              - A citizens charter be drawn up. These already exists in some form in a few states already, i see no problem with this one.

              - Secondly, that there be state lok ayuktas. This one runs into federal problems ie centre imposing itself over the states. All centre has to do is implement a model law and its upto the states to follow up. Ppl in those states take it upon themselves to push their govts into acting on it. Same thing happened with RTI and that was a much longer fight.

              - Third and last one, that the lower bureaucracy be included in the scope of the ombudsman. This one is up for debate, but its really the most important one. This is the only way that the common man ever gets any grievance redressal. Its not as impossible as its made out. I expect TA to go hammer & tongs over this one.
              Under NO circumstances EVER do any politico want these provisions implemented.

              Remember, under the surface all the corrupt vermin infesting out houses of Parliament are of one mind, to ensure that no check on their evil is possible.
              The matter is already drifting slowly out of the public eye. In a few months time, after a lot of so called 'debate' a bill with plenty of provisions and loopholes will be passed.

              The only thing that can save India is a miracle from the Gods.
              We need a hero, A man with the ruthlessness of Stalin but with the integrity of Gandhi.
              Someone who will put the vermin to fire and sword and drench the fields with the blood of the unworthy but who will have the restraint to turn away from power in the end.
              In other words a fantasy......
              Last edited by bolo121; 11 Sep 11,, 19:55.
              For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
                Now it will be too difficult to mobilize the public once more.
                Heh, how do you know that. He's done it once its not so hard to see him repeating the same feat again.

                Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
                The bill will stagnate in parliament, many debates will be held, diluting provisions will be added. The common people dont have the subtlety to see what they will do.
                There's some good ppl behind this movement in his team. They'll do the needful. There won't be any spin good enough to counter that.

                Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
                Under NO circumstances EVER do any politico want these provisions implemented.
                Screw what they want, its about what WE want.

                Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
                Remember, under the surface all the corrupt vermin infesting out houses of Parliament are of one mind, to ensure that no check on their evil is possible.
                Well, the tide is turning. Pissed off ppl make govts listen, they do it in dictatorships, so why isn't it possible in a supposedly free country ?

                Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
                The matter is already drifting slowly out of the public eye. In a few months time, after a lot of so called 'debate' a bill with plenty of provisions and loopholes will be passed.
                Well, if that happens the fight goes on. Remember RTI.

                Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
                The only thing that can save India is a miracle from the Gods.
                Or a good leader until then public pressure will suffice. Leaders dont do anything until pressured into doing so.

                Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
                We need a hero, A man with the ruthlessness of Stalin but with the integrity of Gandhi.
                Someone who will put the vermin to fire and sword and drench the fields with the blood of the unworthy but who will have the restraint to turn away from power in the end.
                In other words a fantasy......
                Until such time this movement seems a lot less draconinan. It does not want to replace the existing system it just wants it to work better :)

                I for one do not see any problems with that idea, in fact its been sorely required for some time now. Gandhi was a moral tyrant anyway. A Stalin would reverse eveything we achieved todate in exchange for a lot less.
                Last edited by Double Edge; 11 Sep 11,, 20:08.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                  Heh, how do you know that. He's done it once its not so hard to see him repeating the same feat again.
                  Well its of course impossible to measure something like this, but personally i feel that the pressure he had built up earlier is now dispersed.
                  Earlier watching the thing building up you got the sense of pressure and momentum being on his side.


                  There's some good ppl behind this movement in his team. They'll do the needful. There won't be any spin good enough to counter that.
                  His team is full of corporate spinmeisters, yes but i think recent news articles are all speaking of disagreements within 'Team Anna'


                  Screw what they want, its about what WE want.
                  Dont be silly. What we want has never mattered.
                  Remember, this was a urban movement. No rural vote bank was affected.



                  Well, the tide is turning. Pissed off ppl make govts listen, they do it in dictatorships, so why isn't it possible in a supposedly free country ?
                  There is no tide just a media generated wave that has now washed out.
                  India is not a free country. It is a Kleptocratic Oligarchy masquerading as a democracy


                  Well, if that happens the fight goes on. Remember RTI.
                  RTI was a one off. They by ignorance and apathy let an actually useful law pass, but wont repeat the mistake in future



                  Or a good leader until then public pressure will suffice. Leaders dont do anything until pressured into doing so.
                  There is no such thing as a good leader in India. He would never remain alive long enough to reach the Center.


                  Until such time this movement seems a lot less draconinan. It does not want to replace the existing system it just wants it to work better :)

                  I for one do not see any problems with that goal, in fact its been sorely required for some time now.
                  Good to see some people still have hope. For my part...Vive La Revolution!!!
                  Vive La Guillotine!!
                  Last edited by bolo121; 11 Sep 11,, 20:20.
                  For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
                    His team is full of corporate spinmeisters, yes but i think recent news articles are all speaking of disagreements within 'Team Anna'
                    Corporate spinmeisters ? who are these ppl you refer to.

                    His team has a supreme court lawyer whose dad was the one that tried to push this bill through and almost suceeded.

                    A justice whose work got the CM of my state toppled.

                    A cop who missed out on the top job in the Delhi force because she would not tow the politicos line. Otherwise she was very well respected even by the prisoners.

                    And a social activist from IIT who worked for govt and then decided to get into social work.

                    Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
                    Dont be silly. What we want has never mattered.
                    What do you call a 'sense of the house' motion ?

                    Who is 'we' here btw ? if you mean the middle class, upto a few months ago i would have agreed, it was just the poor & the rich that mattered. The middle class for the large part was mostly ignored, well that class is has grown and is making itself heard. Time to re-evaluate.

                    Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
                    Remember, this was a urban movement. No rural vote bank was affected.
                    Umm, i would not say that. This guy comes from a village, he's pretty well known in his state. Then he gets national coverage on all the channels. Inflation hits the poor in the pocket first before it reaches others. This was lower middle class movement until it got urbanised by the media. The lower middle class get screwed the most by govt and they're the ones that vote and whose votes matter.

                    Now Congress might be safe in the house for now, how bout the UP elections in a few months or the general one in a cpl of years.

                    We ARE gonna get a bill that meets our demands :)

                    Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
                    There is no tide just a media generated wave that has now washed out.
                    And the media will be co-opted the next time.

                    Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
                    India is not a free country. It is a Kleptocratic Oligarchy masquerading as a democracy
                    Can you name some countries you consider free in that case ?

                    India has got to be one of those few countries where the votes of the poor still determine who stays or goes.

                    Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
                    RTI was a one off. They by ignorance and apathy let an actually useful law pass, but wont repeat the mistake in future
                    Do you realise the lokpal bill actually passed in the lower house in '69. That version was much tighter than the ones that came after. Parliament was dissolved soon after so it never got to the upper house.

                    Was that a one off too ?

                    Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
                    There is no such thing as a good leader in India. He would never remain alive long enough to reach the Center.
                    Freedom fighters.

                    Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
                    Good to see some people still have hope.
                    Heh, in a country like India if you don't have hope you might as well be dead!

                    Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
                    For my part...

                    Vive La Revolution!!!
                    Vive La Guillotine!!
                    Its not a revolution, it started off as a campaign and turned into a movement. If this movement fails we might have a revolution in the future. The next one or the one after that might not be peaceful. This movement is a very good sign that everything is not altogether ok.

                    How far back does your memory go ? do you remember India of the 70s & 80s ?

                    You mean to tell me nothings changed.
                    Last edited by Double Edge; 11 Sep 11,, 23:49.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Greetings bolo121, I believe you views are being a bit of pessimistic with unprogressive ideas by your statements so I felt like jumping into a healthy debate, no offense.

                      Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
                      Well its of course impossible to measure something like this, but personally i feel that the pressure he had built up earlier is now dispersed.
                      Earlier watching the thing building up you got the sense of pressure and momentum being on his side.
                      1. Pressure on government have not dispersed, the fast definitely have end but the terms have been agreed by the government who had taken a stand against it in the past, what ever we know about the magnitude of the moment was through the media, and in the absence of spices, you might know how much is the media a responsible entity to report news of attention in lieu of news of importance, celebrity gossips take over serial bomb blast news when the news faded out like life went back to normal when it actually did not.
                      Anna knew the government will not accept the proposal without a massive moment of the masses and so he did, but in the mean time he took precautionary steps not to make it turn into a violent agitation in absence of him when he was held in Jail. Things are well planned and going towards the right direction till now.


                      His team is full of corporate spinmeisters, yes but i think recent news articles are all speaking of disagreements within 'Team Anna'
                      2. Instead of stating about the disagreement stated in the media, a better idea would be discussing the matter in between us but as this is not a national forum, its might not preferable to raise domestic issues here imo, but you have to remember the media is more then an instrument of public awareness now a days, it is fast becoming an instrument of self interest and business oriented (not to mention political favourism) as I have stated in point 1. report news of attention in lieu of news of importance. If the media would have been free fair and impartial we would have very little to discuss in such a platform.


                      Dont be silly. What we want has never mattered.
                      Remember, this was a urban movement. No rural vote bank was affected.
                      3. Call it a urban movement but not necessarily a tropic of urban interest, the issues raised are definitely not limited to urban interest or advantages, in reality it is a movement of the politically aware class of people of the nation and it is not that no rural participants were present during the fast, Mr. Akhil Gogoi a person from rural Assam was in the Anna team on the protest in Delhi, if you remember. And lol why do you think it is a protest against congress or the party in power? what the rural vote bank issue, you must know that the protest was a social movement to reform the administrative structure of the nation by introducing a vigilant and impartial medium to check all respective administrative machinery of the state, yes the opposition parties were upto gaining political mileage from the movement but were revoked by Anna and team, last checked Anna even criticised BJP's Rath Yatra concept, but if you are advocating a loss of vote bank for disagreeing the Anti-corruption bill, the government have accepted the conditions then, indicating something more then a vote bank politics. People are getting aware and active, they will even educate the other people, a mere political rally with lots of promises made might not work for a political party in future campaigns.


                      There is no tide just a media generated wave that has now washed out.
                      India is not a free country. It is a Kleptocratic Oligarchy masquerading as a democracy
                      4. Media generated wave might have washed out, but the politically aware class of people who took active participation and those who support for the cause are neither party vote banks nor politically illiterate to believe and act at the disposal of political parties, the root cause for the peaceful agitation is not over and still the politically aware class of people have not changed their mind, different people might have different views but they will not stop for anything less then an Anti corruption bill and Anna is their to lead them. Not flying the banners and hoarding against the politicians doesn't indicates the fight is over, actually it is not the need of the day. India do not exercise total freedom but still its the society which dictates a system, not the system which makes a society. And this is happening, the responsible class is taking the lead, one will lead and all will follow, people have a minimum ability to judge what is good and what is bad, if it is happening then it is hopefully for the good.


                      RTI was a one off. They by ignorance and apathy let an actually useful law pass, but wont repeat the mistake in future
                      5. I am not sure what you mean to say.


                      There is no such thing as a good leader in India. He would never remain alive long enough to reach the Center.
                      6. I believe their is nothing like an absolute good or absolute bad in the world, all depends how you perceive it to be, Anna's ideology seems working and so he is good.


                      Good to see some people still have hope. For my part...Vive La Revolution!!!
                      Vive La Guillotine!!


                      7. A better term would be an Evolution, it is not a change in power or organisation or political party, but an improvement in the functioning of the democracy, the movement exhibits not a change in organisational structure but an improvement in the efficiency of the organisation. An evolution for a way of making correction and changes of a democracy without the use of violence and force but through a peaceful protest without inflicting a damage to national property and interest. An evolution of a politically aware and active class of people in the nation.

                      Its an uprising of the society to make reforms in themselves and the operational systems, a society demanding a social reforms for themselves and it should not be taken as a mere political issue.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
                        It doesnt matter any more.
                        Congress has won once more and have defused Anna by promising a whole lot of stuff in the proposed bill.
                        I highly doubt any of his demands will be met.
                        Congress will pass a very diluted bill and the party in power will always ensure that whoever occupies the Lok Pal post will be a pliant supporter.
                        Anna will fast and cry but nothing will change.
                        The legislature does have influence upon other administrative machinery, but certainly not control upon them, if so, then you are stating a state of failure of democracy, which I believe is not true, afaik the appointment of officials for lokayukta will be decided by the judicial supreme, who is believed to be most impartial entity in Indian democracy, the same body which elect National Human Rights Commission officials, who perform a check on rights of democracy, update my knowledge if I am wrong, but if you suspect every person in the administrative machinery of India is corrupt and party favourism applicable I must say you are being too pessimistic.
                        Last edited by payeng; 17 Sep 11,, 13:06.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by payeng View Post
                          Greetings bolo121, I believe you views are being a bit of pessimistic with unprogressive ideas by your statements so I felt like jumping into a healthy debate, no offense.
                          None taken. I was not being pessimistic, just realistic.


                          1. Pressure on government have not dispersed, the fast definitely have end but the terms have been agreed by the government who had taken a stand against it in the past, what ever we know about the magnitude of the moment was through the media, and in the absence of spices, you might know how much is the media a responsible entity to report news of attention in lieu of news of importance, celebrity gossips take over serial bomb blast news when the news faded out like life went back to normal when it actually did not.
                          Anna knew the government will not accept the proposal without a massive moment of the masses and so he did, but in the mean time he took precautionary steps not to make it turn into a violent agitation in absence of him when he was held in Jail. Things are well planned and going towards the right direction till now.
                          The pressure has already dispersed. There are no countrywide protests anymore, Anna's gathering has dispersed and the recent bomb blasts have drawn away media interest.



                          2. Instead of stating about the disagreement stated in the media, a better idea would be discussing the matter in between us but as this is not a national forum, its might not preferable to raise domestic issues here imo, but you have to remember the media is more then an instrument of public awareness now a days, it is fast becoming an instrument of self interest and business oriented (not to mention political favourism) as I have stated in point 1. report news of attention in lieu of news of importance. If the media would have been free fair and impartial we would have very little to discuss in such a platform.
                          Media has always been about the bottom line of the companies promoting it.
                          In any market affected economy, free and fair media cannot exist.


                          3. Call it a urban movement but not necessarily a tropic of urban interest, the issues raised are definitely not limited to urban interest or advantages, in reality it is a movement of the politically aware class of people of the nation and it is not that no rural participants were present during the fast, Mr. Akhil Gogoi a person from rural Assam was in the Anna team on the protest in Delhi, if you remember. And lol why do you think it is a protest against congress or the party in power? what the rural vote bank issue, you must know that the protest was a social movement to reform the administrative structure of the nation by introducing a vigilant and impartial medium to check all respective administrative machinery of the state, yes the opposition parties were upto gaining political mileage from the movement but were revoked by Anna and team, last checked Anna even criticised BJP's Rath Yatra concept, but if you are advocating a loss of vote bank for disagreeing the Anti-corruption bill, the government have accepted the conditions then, indicating something more then a vote bank politics. People are getting aware and active, they will even educate the other people, a mere political rally with lots of promises made might not work for a political party in future campaigns.
                          Not sure what your wall of text was meant to convey. What i meant was that protest came only from some sections of urban society. The great mass of the peole have not moved or noticed.



                          4. Media generated wave might have washed out, but the politically aware class of people who took active participation and those who support for the cause are neither party vote banks nor politically illiterate to believe and act at the disposal of political parties, the root cause for the peaceful agitation is not over and still the politically aware class of people have not changed their mind, different people might have different views but they will not stop for anything less then an Anti corruption bill and Anna is their to lead them. Not flying the banners and hoarding against the politicians doesn't indicates the fight is over, actually it is not the need of the day. India do not exercise total freedom but still its the society which dictates a system, not the system which makes a society. And this is happening, the responsible class is taking the lead, one will lead and all will follow, people have a minimum ability to judge what is good and what is bad, if it is happening then it is hopefully for the good.
                          What i was trying to say was that us so called politically aware people do not matter. Politicians depend on their rural power banks to get voted to office.
                          This movement has not affected the constituent masses of those vote banks.


                          5. I am not sure what you mean to say.
                          The politicos didn't realize the implications of passing such a bill and so did not oppose it. They will be more wary in future

                          6. I believe their is nothing like an absolute good or absolute bad in the world, all depends how you perceive it to be, Anna's ideology seems working and so he is good.
                          meaningless platitude




                          7. A better term would be an Evolution, it is not a change in power or organisation or political party, but an improvement in the functioning of the democracy, the movement exhibits not a change in organisational structure but an improvement in the efficiency of the organisation. An evolution for a way of making correction and changes of a democracy without the use of violence and force but through a peaceful protest without inflicting a damage to national property and interest. An evolution of a politically aware and active class of people in the nation.

                          Its an uprising of the society to make reforms in themselves and the operational systems, a society demanding a social reforms for themselves and it should not be taken as a mere political issue.
                          Very optimistic. As far as i can see it was a temporary outpouring of people's frustrations. But unfortunately the requisite pressure to cause lasting change did not manifest.
                          For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by payeng View Post
                            The legislature does have influence upon other administrative machinery, but certainly not control upon them, if so, then you are stating a state of failure of democracy, which I believe is not true, afaik the appointment of officials for lokayukta will be decided by the judicial supreme, who is believed to be most impartial entity in Indian democracy, the same body which elect National Human Rights Commission officials, who perform a check on rights of democracy, update my knowledge if I am wrong, but if you suspect every person in the administrative machinery of India is corrupt and party favourism applicable I must say you are being too pessimistic.

                            Erm what I was trying to convey was that the bill will be tweaked to avoid this.
                            The decisive say will remain with the government in power and they will ensure a chamcha fills the post.
                            Of course I suspect the vermin who fill our halls of government whether poloticians or civil servants. The vast majority are corrupt and self aggrandizing vermin who deserve slow and painful deaths.
                            For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

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                            • #15
                              AH was interviewd by CNN-IBN lead, Rajdeep Sardesai earlier this week...

                              Manmohan Singh should learn from Indira Gandhi: Anna Hazare | IBN Live | Sep 13

                              Have to say this interview went well and presented AH's views quite clearly.

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