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  • In Pakistan, pro-American sentiment is rare

    i wish there were something we could do to help Mr Afridi.

    ----

    In Pakistan, a rethinking of the U.S. alliance - The Washington Post

    In Pakistan, pro-American sentiment is rare


    By Griff Witte, Published: June 23 | Updated: Friday, June 24, 8:45 PM

    PESHAWAR, Pakistan — Ali Khan Afridi is a wanted man.

    Militants come to his house in this frontier city and menace his family. Men claiming to be from Pakistan’s intelligence services call at 2 a.m. and tell him to watch his back.


    Afridi accepts all this as the price of his radical views: In a country where the vast majority of people believe the United States is an enemy, Afridi is unabashedly pro-American.

    “I believe that America is the only power that can defeat these monsters, these terrorists,” said Afridi, a clean-shaven 36-year-old who leads a consortium of non-governmental groups. “And that means my life is in permanent danger.”

    The United States and Pakistan have been allies for decades, but it has rarely been easy to be pro-American here. Now, after the killing early last month of Osama bin Laden by U.S. Navy SEALs, speaking out on behalf of the United States requires a degree of boldness that verges on a death wish.

    While bin Laden was held in low regard by most Pakistanis and there have been few public displays of anger at his death, the impact on attitudes toward the United States has been profound. Critics of Pakistani ties with Washington are ascendant on the streets, in the media and, crucially, at Pakistan’s military headquarters in Rawalpindi. Backers of the relationship, the few who remain, have been cowed into silence or are reconsidering their stands.

    “The U.S. doesn’t realize it, but the damage done is huge. This is a deep hurt that is not going to go away,” said Riaz Khokar, a former Pakistani ambassador to the United States who advocates a dramatic downgrading of the relationship. “We have placed all our eggs in the U.S. basket. And the eggs turned out to be rotten.”

    What Khokar and others object to is not that the United States killed bin Laden. It’s the fact that after a decade of partnership in battling extremists, the Obama administration decided to carry out the raid in the northern city of Abbottabad without informing Pakistan.

    U.S. officials have said they were concerned about tipping off bin Laden and did not want to risk confiding in Pakistani security services that have not always proved trustworthy. Since bin Laden was killed in early May, U.S. policymakers have openly wondered whether elements of the Pakistani military or intelligence services knew about bin Laden’s presence.

    Such statements have deepened the mistrust here and the sense of betrayal.

    “In this part of the world, public humiliation is a very serious matter. And the U.S. has humiliated the armed forces of Pakistan,” said Khokar, who has met recently with Pakistan’s powerful top general, Ashfaq Kayani.

    Perhaps no other Pakistani backer of the U.S. alliance has come under more scrutiny, or pressure, than Kayani. The army chief had been tightly aligned with the United States and had forged a particularly strong relationship with Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

    But after bin Laden’s death, Kayani “almost went into a state of shock. He could never imagine in his wildest dreams that after all the coordination with Mike, this would be the outcome,” according to retired Maj. Gen. Mahmud Ali Durrani, a former ambassador to the United States who is considered close to Kayani.

    In his public statements since the bin Laden raid, Kayani has been frequently critical of the United States. He is facing pressure from his corps commanders to go beyond rhetoric and take a far tougher policy line, including forcing an end to the U.S. campaign of drone strikes in Pakistan’s tribal belt.

    Despite growing anti-Americanism within the public in recent years, the army’s top leadership had long been a bastion of belief that the U.S. alliance was too important to risk losing. But that has changed.

    “The army is very, very sensitive to public opinion,” Durrani said. “Right now there’s a rethinking because there’s been a failure in the old strategy of so-called cooperation with the U.S. Anyone in their position would rethink.”

    ‘Abusing America’

    On Pakistani television screens, the rethinking plays out nightly. The airwaves are filled with prime-time anchors who attack the United States and go after even the Pakistani generals who support the alliance. “If you are a journalist and you want high ratings, start verbally abusing America,” said Saleem Safi, host of a popular show on the privately run Geo network. “If you abuse the Taliban, al-Qaeda or the Pakistani establishment, you face threats to your life — people say you are a non-Muslim. If you are talking against America, you become a hero.”

    Advocates of downgrading the U.S. relationship point to the estimated 35,000 Pakistanis who have been killed in extremist violence since Pakistan partnered with the United States after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. The billions of dollars in aid supplied by Washington, they say, hardly compensate for the economic devastation wrought by a war with militants that has never been accepted as Pakistan’s own.

    In Peshawar, the teeming capital of Pakistan’s northwest that has suffered a disproportionate share of attacks, a massive billboard memorializes a police official assassinated by the Taliban last year. Streets are named after other soldiers and officers who have died. But by and large, “people have not owned this war. They say it is the war of the U.S. that has been imposed on us,” said Shaheed Soherwordi, an international relations professor at Peshawar University.

    Soherwordi spoke from a desk in the Lincoln Corner, a section of the university library co-sponsored by the U.S. government that gives Pakistanis a place to read American books and magazines — everything from thick biographies of presidents to Entertainment Weekly.

    It is one of the few places in the city that is openly associated with the United States. Another, the U.S. consulate, is considered such a prime target for attack that Soherwordi recently pulled his daughter from a school that he felt was situated too close to the fortress-like compound.

    “Every thing and every person associated with the U.S. is a target,” Soherwordi said.

    That includes Afridi, whose work takes him into the neighboring tribal areas. He insists he does not have a death wish but is well aware of the risks of speaking out so strongly in favor of the United States. In recent days, a known militant visited the Afridi home and told Afridi to stay quiet.

    Afridi said he has no intention of doing so. The real threat to his native tribal lands is not the United States, he said, but the Arab, Chechen and Uzbek extremists who have moved in and taken over. He believes others agree with him but are too afraid to say so.

    “There are millions like me,” Afridi said. “But they are terrified. And they are silent.”
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  • #2
    Astralis Reply

    There's nothing to be done. We're on a collision course. Our friend here, IHM, is in grave danger for his views.

    "If you abuse the Taliban, al-Qaeda or the Pakistani establishment, you face threats to your life — people say you are a non-Muslim. If you are talking against America, you become a hero.”

    Pakistanis believe it's America's responsibility to prove our worth by providing a nuke deal IAW our Indian pact...as though the rest of the Nuclear Suppliers Group would permit it. Oddly, they won't ask the Chinese for their sponsorship. They know the PRC wouldn't back them.

    Pakistanis believe we should resolve for them, favorably, Kashmir. They refuse to acknowledge it's a bilateral issue much of their own making and, moreover, carry their own tainted legacy in the suppression of POK.

    Pakistanis believe we should appoint their government as trustee to Afghanistan as though it's their private sandbox. They've no interest in the afghan people beyond how they might serve Pakistan.

    Pakistanis believe they've sacrificed more than anybody else in the war on terror. They refuse to acknowledge that not once has a soldier of Pakistan died fighting ANYBODY but their own home-grown insurgency. Nor that this insurgency would have no legs but for their active sponsorship and sanctuary to the afghan taliban.

    Were we of sound mind, America would cease all aid to Pakistan, embargo all trade and declare war. Pakistan has LONG been in the business of killing American troops with one hand while accepting our money with the other. That is an incontrovertible fact.

    Withdraw our troops from Afghanistan, anchor a counter-terror strike force in the Indian Ocean and then call a spade "a spade".

    Plain language written here.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

    Comment


    • #3
      There's nothing to be done. We're on a collision course. Our friend here, IHM, is in grave danger for his views.
      i meant in a slightly more personal sense: is there anything anybody here can offer that would strengthen those few pro-American/pro-Western voices in Pakistan.

      Were we of sound mind, America would cease all aid to Pakistan, embargo all trade and declare war. Pakistan has LONG been in the business of killing American troops with one hand while accepting our money with the other. That is an incontrovertible fact.
      we'll be in a much better position to do so after 2014. as it is, we should stop all military aid NOW and transfer it all to civilian aid.

      as american troops withdraw, there's less people in the shooting gallery, and fewer supplies that need to be trucked over. far less need for the farce of a friendship with the PA. i'd open up far larger sections of pakistan to our UAVs-- which by then will be far more numerous, with better sensors, and more analysts/targeteers at the other end.

      as for declaring war, that will not happen (and i think it's highly unlikely the pakistanis will declare war on the US) absent a major terrorist attack that can directly attributable to pakistan.

      for the short-term, we should encourage behavior that seriously encourages pakistanis to rethink their belief in the PA/ISI. that's the first step in getting them to change their idiotic worldview and what passes for strategy over there.
      Last edited by astralis; 26 Jun 11,, 21:16.
      There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by astralis View Post
        for the short-term, we should encourage behavior that seriously encourages pakistanis to rethink their belief in the PA/ISI. that's the first step in getting them to change their idiotic worldview and what passes for strategy over there.
        Wouldn't this also involve changing how they think about the US as well ?

        As PA/ISI woks with the US which is guilty by association.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by S2 View Post
          There's nothing to be done. We're on a collision course.
          One wonders if the prospect of getting OBL blinded the Administration to the wider implications of openly stepping on Pakistan's sovereignty, or if it predicted the backlash but felt the prize was worth the price.

          I was as glad as anyone that we had finally gotten OBL and even argued that we had to do it solo because we didn't know who we could trust in Pakistan to collaborate with us. But there is something to be said for trust.

          Eugene McCarthy, who ran for president in 1968, had a favorite line he often used in his stump speeches: It is better to err on the side of trust than it is to err on the side of distrust. I've thought about that maxim for years and even applied it in life and business. I wonder what would have happened if we had done so on the get-OBL mission. If elements of the Pak gov had queered the mission, what would have been the reaction of the Pak public? If they had cooperated with us and OLB was got, what would US-Pak relations be today? The answer to the last question is easy. The answer to the first is open.

          Pakistanis believe they've sacrificed more than anybody else in the war on terror. They refuse to acknowledge that not once has a soldier of Pakistan died fighting ANYBODY but their own home-grown insurgency. Nor that this insurgency would have no legs but for their active sponsorship and sanctuary to the afghan taliban.
          You are right, but what does that have to do with Pak's reaction to our demeaning their military and violating their sovereignty?

          Were we of sound mind, America would cease all aid to Pakistan, embargo all trade and declare war. Pakistan has LONG been in the business of killing American troops with one hand while accepting our money with the other. That is an incontrovertible fact.
          Your first point is worth considering. As for declaring war, double-dealing isn't a reason to go to war. Why widen the WOT when we don't have to? And besides, we're broke.

          Withdraw our troops from Afghanistan, anchor a counter-terror strike force in the Indian Ocean and then call a spade "a spade".
          Would anyone be surprised if that is where we are come 2014?
          To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
            You are right, but what does that have to do with Pak's reaction to our demeaning their military and violating their sovereignty?
            They have demeaned themselves and have reneged on their own sovereign responsibilities more than enough to warrant unilateral action against terrorist targets and sanctuaries within their so-called sovereign borders. The Pakistani reaction to such 'violations' is an exercise in posturing and face-saving. If they truly gave a damn about their so-called sovereignty there should have been outrage during all those times the Pakistani establishment signed 'peace deals' with various Taliban groups in FATA and Swat etc that effectively ceded sovereignty in these places to the Taliban. But was there any outrage to these? No. Actually these 'peace deals' were applauded by Pakistanis while the local Pashtuns of those regions were made to suffer the fate of abandonment to Taliban rule and their arbitrary 'justice'.

            Wasnt it just 2 short years ago this summer that an entire 'division' called Malakand had been effectively ceded to Taliban control through such a 'peace deal' whereby 'Sharia' law was implemented and capital punishment in the town-square and elsewhere became the norm? If i remember correctly it took a video of a girl being publicly whipped by the Taliban infront of dozens of onlookers coupled with much American pressure for the Pakistanis to finally act and send in the army to drive the Taliban out of Swat and re-assert their 'sovereignty' there.

            And what did the Pakistani public make of that military operation that could have been averted in the first place had the Pakistanis lived-up to their sovereign responsibilities? Heap criticism onto the US...

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by 1980s View Post
              They have demeaned themselves and have reneged on their own sovereign responsibilities more than enough to warrant unilateral action against terrorist targets and sanctuaries within their so-called sovereign borders. The Pakistani reaction to such 'violations' is an exercise in posturing and face-saving. If they truly gave a damn about their so-called sovereignty there should have been outrage during all those times the Pakistani establishment signed 'peace deals' with various Taliban groups in FATA and Swat etc that effectively ceded sovereignty in these places to the Taliban. But was there any outrage to these? No. Actually these 'peace deals' were applauded by Pakistanis while the local Pashtuns of those regions were made to suffer the fate of abandonment to Taliban rule and their arbitrary 'justice'.

              Wasnt it just 2 short years ago this summer that an entire 'division' called Malakand had been effectively ceded to Taliban control through such a 'peace deal' whereby 'Sharia' law was implemented and capital punishment in the town-square and elsewhere became the norm? If i remember correctly it took a video of a girl being publicly whipped by the Taliban infront of dozens of onlookers coupled with much American pressure for the Pakistanis to finally act and send in the army to drive the Taliban out of Swat and re-assert their 'sovereignty' there.

              And what did the Pakistani public make of that military operation that could have been averted in the first place had the Pakistanis lived-up to their sovereign responsibilities? Heap criticism onto the US...

              Powerful argument for sure, and I don't disagree with it. My question, however, --if it can be called a question--has to do with public perception in and the sensibilities of the PA. How they see it governs our relationship. Their high horse attitude may be hypocritical, but however you characterize it, it's a reality we have to recognize in our relationship.

              Furthermore, you're justifying our violation of Pak's sovereignty on the basis that the Taliban do it. Then why didn't we invade the Taliban's Pak sanctuaries all these years? The fact is our restraint was tied to the notion of sovereignty.

              Getting OBL himself was in our best national interests. No question we should have acted. The question is, did we choose the right means? Did we err in not trusting the PA to be a reliable partner in the mission?
              To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

              Comment


              • #8
                JAD,

                The question is, did we choose the right means? Did we err in not trusting the PA to be a reliable partner in the mission?
                given the leaking of the intel the US shared re: bomb making facilities that happened shortly after the OBL raid, i'd say that this was no error.

                i'd also say that given how the PA is acting under a supposedly pro-American COAS, it's high time for the US to look at other means of weakening the institution-- particularly if the PA is going to choose an islamist sympathizer as a COAS.
                There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                Comment


                • #9
                  JAD_333 Reply

                  "Furthermore, you're justifying our violation of Pak's sovereignty on the basis that the Taliban do it."

                  This is extremely worrisome. It appears you believe we ARE violating their sovereignty. I'd argue that a government has sovereign obligations incurred with rights. When those obligations aren't met either as a function of inability or by policy choice then sovereign authority and rights therein have been aborgated.

                  Our troops are murdered daily by the direction of an ousted afghan taliban government living in sanctuary upon Pakistani lands. Their forces fighting in Afghanistan routinely return to these same areas to reconstitute, recruit, recreate, rehabilitate and refit for battle. These forces and their leadership have stood in the way of our efforts to meet mission obligations to U.N.A.M.A. as part of ISAF. They've killed the vast majority of afghan civilians in this war-often by targeted intent.

                  And it is as Pakistan's leadership desires. Not once has the Pakistani military conducted combat operations against this foreign government and their forces escounced rather comfortably on Pakistani lands. That presence, btw JAD, precedes our first drone attack by nearly two years (late 2001).

                  Simply on the basis of a right to self-defense our attacks, however limited and precise given the daily onslaught we face from Pakistan, is entirely justified.

                  I hope you'll revisit your profoundly flawed thinking here to assure you're not providing unintentional aid and comfort to these enemies of our troops and the afghan people. This war promised to be plenty hard enough without the added burden of a proxy army shielded though sanctuary from an ostensible ally.

                  As such it's proving to be unwinnable. I abhore the American government's enabling of this and believe George Bush and Barak Obama owe each American soldier an apology for our inexcusable conduct with respect to Pakistan.
                  "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                  "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by astralis View Post
                    JAD,



                    given the leaking of the intel the US shared re: bomb making facilities that happened shortly after the OBL raid, i'd say that this was no error.

                    i'd also say that given how the PA is acting under a supposedly pro-American COAS, it's high time for the US to look at other means of weakening the institution-- particularly if the PA is going to choose an islamist sympathizer as a COAS.
                    The error in not trusting is that it destroys or severely damages a relationship such that whatever is gained at the moment may be outweighed by future losses in the international arena brought about as a direct result of it.

                    It might have been good to let the PA in on the mission. It was win-win. They go along--OBL is dead or captured; they tip OBL--they face an international firestorm and a massive internal upheaval out of which comes greater cooperation with the US, which leads to shutting down the Taliban sanctuaries and hastening the end of the war.
                    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
                      and a massive internal upheaval out of which comes greater cooperation with the US, which leads to shutting down the Taliban sanctuaries and hastening the end of the war.
                      What makes you say that? Why would they face an internal upheaval?
                      Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                      -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by S2 View Post
                        "Furthermore, you're justifying our violation of Pak's sovereignty on the basis that the Taliban do it."

                        This is extremely worrisome. It appears you believe we ARE violating their sovereignty.
                        What I said in not so many words is that it APPEARS to them that we are violating their sovereignty. What I believe is that we gave them that perception and it has become powerful ammo for our most ardent enemies in Pak. Where that leads us in terms of future cooperation is unknown. Right now the relationship is in a melt-down.

                        I'd argue that a government has sovereign obligations incurred with rights. When those obligations aren't met either as a function of inability or by policy choice then sovereign authority and rights therein have been aborgated.
                        That's a tough case to make. A nation doesn't forfeit its sovereignty because it acts badly. At the same time, its sovereignty is not an absolute protection against retaliation, e.g. sanctions, invasions, etc. I would take half your case, the part that suggests we should always act in our vital interests, sovereignty be damned.


                        Our troops are murdered daily by the direction of an ousted afghan taliban government living in sanctuary upon Pakistani lands. Their forces fighting in Afghanistan routinely return to these same areas to reconstitute, recruit, recreate, rehabilitate and refit for battle. These forces and their leadership have stood in the way of our efforts to meet mission obligations to U.N.A.M.A. as part of ISAF. They've killed the vast majority of afghan civilians in this war-often by targeted intent.

                        And it is as Pakistan's leadership desires. Not once has the Pakistani military conducted combat operations against this foreign government and their forces escounced rather comfortably on Pakistani lands. That presence, btw JAD, precedes our first drone attack by nearly two years (late 2001).

                        Simply on the basis of a right to self-defense our attacks, however limited and precise given the daily onslaught we face from Pakistan, is entirely justified.
                        Those facts support what argument? I am not saying that we do nothing about them. Our objective is to put out the fire, and I am not excluding stomping on Pak's sovereignty to get the job done. I am just questioning how our actions will play out from a historical perspective. I have look at rejected alternatives to actions taken to find the answers.

                        I hope you'll revisit your profoundly flawed thinking here to assure you're not providing unintentional aid and comfort to these enemies of our troops and the afghan people. This war promised to be plenty hard enough without the added burden of a proxy army shielded though sanctuary from an ostensible ally.
                        Steve, I don't think you're following me. I've been looking at the alternative--what if we trusted the PA in the OBL mission--and asking whether or not that would have been a smarter move. I am working on the thesis that it could have spelled the end of the sanctuaries and brought a quick end to the war. I'll take it elsewhere.

                        As such it's proving to be unwinnable. I abhore the American government's enabling of this and believe George Bush and Barak Obama owe each American soldier an apology for our inexcusable conduct with respect to Pakistan.
                        Could it have been avoided?
                        To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                          What makes you say that? Why would they face an internal upheaval?
                          Imagine we ask Pak to join in the mission to get OBL; someone in the ISI tips off OBL; the mission fails; the world learns of it; Pak faces sure international condemnation; elements of the PA that acted in good faith will feel betrayed from within; US is about to cut off aid; an internal battle begins within Pak gov between pro US and anti US elements and major changes result.
                          To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            JAD_333 Reply

                            "...what if we trusted the PA in the OBL mission--and asking whether or not that would have been a smarter move. I am working on the thesis that it could have spelled the end of the sanctuaries and brought a quick end to the war."

                            I think Astralis has highlighted it would quite likely be a mission failure. The blowback within Pakistani society would have been minimal. The ISPR would have assured the public message within Pakistan is that failure was America's doing.

                            You're speculating an outcome. So, therefore, shall I. The reality is that POTUS, in his accrued wisdom, saw nothing but bad by doing so and avoided their inclusion. I'm glad.

                            All evidence-from ten years of complicity with the Afghan taliban to the most wanted man on earth living within earshot of daily formations at the Pakistani military academy for FIVE years to a failure to execute raids on IED factories with alacrity in the aftermath of such indicate that your wandering down the wrong path.

                            Another chance, in effect, is what you're suggesting. YET another chance...with OBL no less. Silly, sir. The narrative within Pakistan has long been established otherwise and it's too late, by far, for them to attempt backtracking now.

                            They've, foremost, no compelling reason to do so. As of today their regime is still enabled in too many ways by our government. Victory (defeat in the long term) is at hand in Afghanistan for Pakistan. They'll have their way and it'll prove their undoing IMV.
                            "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                            "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              JAD_333 Reply

                              "...What I said in not so many words is that it APPEARS to them that we are violating their sovereignty..."

                              I didn't see that within your comments. OTOH, if you suggest as much it would seem they could only believe so by willfully ignoring the presence of a foreign government and army (the Afghan taliban government) upon their soil.

                              Heard any outcry from Pakistan about THAT violation of their sovereignty? Rather selective application I do say so myself.

                              "What I believe is that we gave them that perception and it has become powerful ammo for our most ardent enemies in Pak..."

                              Those most "ardent" enemies of ours happen to be the very military leadership whom we've annointed with the highly misguided title of "ally". They're also the most powerful. No element in Pakistani society is more powerful nor prepared to exercise that power.

                              "...That's a tough case to make. A nation doesn't forfeit its sovereignty because it acts badly..."

                              Ummm...yes it does if it "acts badly" includes making proxy war upon its neighbor(s) and killing our troops in the process. We've chosen the least intrusive, most precise means we've available to defend ourselves and the Afghan people. Measures of self-defense only get worse beyond PREDATOR.

                              The case is rather easily and compellingly made that Pakistan by choice of policy has freely aborgated vast tracts of its tribal lands to the afghan taliban and their associates for nearly a decade. The evidence has been put before you-most notably that the fifth largest army in the world seems content with the sovereign violation of its territory by a defeated and ousted afghan taliban government.

                              Not a stir. Not a peep of protest. Not a whimper of pain. Nada.
                              "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                              "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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