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wabpilot
17 Jun 11,, 01:57
Now I have an open source so I can write about what I have been hearing. 30 - 40% of NATO's airstrikes in Libya are coming from the French Carrier Charles de Gaulle. CdG cannot continue this pace forever. In fact, she will have to break off the engagement sometime this fall. Then, NATO is going to lose the biggest single contributor to its air operations. That cannot be replaced. The land bases within range of Libya are already strained to keep up. This highlights the usefulness of carriers in general and the importance of building carriers big enough to actually work, in specific.

Here's a link to the open source: Analysis: NATO first to blink in Gaddafi's war of nerves - Yahoo! News (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/analysis-nato-first-blink-gaddafis-war-nerves-102552889.html)

Stitch
17 Jun 11,, 05:09
Obviously, the only "replacement" would be a CV or a CVN (probably a CVN); but, given the US's step backward last month vis-a-vis the Libyan imbroglio, that's not likely to happen. NATO would have to come to the US and REQUEST a CBG presence in the southern Med, and that's probably not going to happen.

Doktor
17 Jun 11,, 10:00
So putting USN out of the equation leaves the other NATO countries without a CV(N)? What a surprise.

Last time I checked Italians had 2 CVs what happened to those?

ace16807
17 Jun 11,, 14:24
So putting USN out of the equation leaves the other NATO countries without a CV(N)? What a surprise.

Last time I checked Italians had 2 CVs what happened to those?

They're only for S/VTOL, i.e. harriers.

bigross86
17 Jun 11,, 14:26
So? Harriers can also carry bombs, last time I checked

ace16807
17 Jun 11,, 15:12
So? Harriers can also carry bombs, last time I checked

Just pointing out that it isn't nearly as versatile as the CDG. Also, a bit of research indicates that the Garibaldi is on station in the Med with harriers flying sorties into Libya. Dunno where the newer carrier is or Spain's for that matter.

Doktor
17 Jun 11,, 15:18
All I know is Spaniards sent 4 planes (think F-18) and that's it from them.

Another think comes to my mind. If the African league is supportive for the action, why don't they give some of their airfields for the campaign?

Dreadnought
17 Jun 11,, 16:39
Obviously, the only "replacement" would be a CV or a CVN (probably a CVN); but, given the US's step backward last month vis-a-vis the Libyan imbroglio, that's not likely to happen. NATO would have to come to the US and REQUEST a CBG presence in the southern Med, and that's probably not going to happen.

More then likely the USN would supply one but it may also request that all NATO members help foot the bill for having in on hand. Not an unreasonable request IMO.

kato
17 Jun 11,, 22:08
This highlights the usefulness of carriers in general and the importance of building carriers big enough to actually work, in specific.
... most missions in Libya are flown from land bases on Malta, Sicily, Corsica and mainland Italy; only about a quarter of aircraft assigned to the mission are carrier-based (Rafales and Harriers).

The French carrier is mostly useful to extend CAP times, but considering the mockery that is CAP over Libya that could be dropped too. France is currently planning to redeploy the unit assigned to the mission from Corsica to Sicily to increase sortie turnaround rates.
The Italian carrier is mostly needed for Italy to bring significant payloads into theater; the F-16s Italy is flying from the mainland are a bit too short-legged to yield significant payload/range ratios, and they don't really have enough Eurofighters to make up for that.


More then likely the USN would supply one but it may also request that all NATO members help foot the bill for having in on hand. Not an unreasonable request IMO.
Technically, we can blame that little adventure NATO is having a bit further east. That one has the nominal 6th Fleet carrier group tied up east of Suez.


All I know is Spaniards sent 4 planes (think F-18) and that's it from them.
Nah, they also sent some ships .- hrough SNMG1 and SNMCMG1, which were rerouted to the Libya op (leading to Germany withdrawing from both).

wabpilot
17 Jun 11,, 23:07
So putting USN out of the equation leaves the other NATO countries without a CV(N)? What a surprise.

Last time I checked Italians had 2 CVs what happened to those?Cavour and Garibaldi are small and the Italians only ordered 16 AV-8B+ Harrier IIs. Don't know how many they have left. Certainly both ships do not come close to replacing CdG.

wabpilot
17 Jun 11,, 23:11
... most missions in Libya are flown from land bases on Malta, Sicily, Corsica and mainland Italy; only about a quarter of aircraft assigned to the mission are carrier-based (Rafales and Harriers). And a few Super Etendards. Note that while a quarter of the aircraft assigned are on the CVN, 30-40% of the daily sorties are flown from the CVN.


The French carrier is mostly useful to extend CAP times, but considering the mockery that is CAP over Libya that could be dropped too. France is currently planning to redeploy the unit assigned to the mission from Corsica to Sicily to increase sortie turnaround rates. Not really. The MN flies mostly attack missions.


Technically, we can blame that little adventure NATO is having a bit further east. That one has the nominal 6th Fleet carrier group tied up east of Suez. If you Euros pulled your own weight in NATO or for your own defense, you would have more carriers and would not always be dependent on us.

Doktor
18 Jun 11,, 17:52
Cavour and Garibaldi are small and the Italians only ordered 16 AV-8B+ Harrier IIs. Don't know how many they have left. Certainly both ships do not come close to replacing CdG.

Well, o/c not, but they could be handy. Spaniards have another 2 STOVL.

Again, why don't the African Union nations offer airfields since they are backing up the operation? Or they are not?


If you Euros pulled your own weight in NATO or for your own defense, you would have more carriers and would not always be dependent on us
But there is no direct threat to EU security and they need better education and healtcare:eek:

kato
27 Jun 11,, 11:58
Again, why don't the African Union nations offer airfields since they are backing up the operation? Or they are not?
Should be obvious.

Closest Airfields to Tripolis:

Algeria:
Annaba (El Mellah) - 670 km
Constantine (Mouhamed Boudiaf International) - 720 km
Ouargla (Ain Beida) - 740 km

Egypt:
Mersa Matruh - 1350 km

NATO:
Malta - 350 km
Pantelleria - 450 km
Sigonella - 530 km

snapper
27 Jun 11,, 12:34
Disposal Services Authority (http://www.edisposals.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/Disposals-Public-Site/en_US/-/GBP/ViewProductDetail-Start;pgid=MieqQ4wkQg8000ArvQ_8K1sp0000sDmq48-X?ProductRef=ARK001%40Disposals-Public&JumpTo=OfferList)

Might have been handy.

Egypt and Tunisia want to stay out.

tankie
27 Jun 11,, 14:13
. If you Euros pulled your own weight in NATO or for your own defense, you would have more carriers and would not always be dependent on us. Ahh well we Brits would love to help out W/P , :rolleyes: BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTT we dont seem to have the recources now , soooooooooo have a pop at Cameron .

Dreadnought
27 Jun 11,, 14:37
Technically, we can blame that little adventure NATO is having a bit further east. That one has the nominal 6th Fleet carrier group tied up east of Suez.

*You still have the US Fifth Fleet based in Bahrain and the in the Gulf of Aden.

kato
27 Jun 11,, 15:21
*You still have the US Fifth Fleet based in Bahrain and the in the Gulf of Aden.
Yep. The one in the Gulf of Aden is the one that was reassigned in order for the CSG to support CTF-150/-151 operations - and CTF-150/-151 technically runs under NATO's Operation Enduring Freedom by mandate, with the original, official purpose of the pirate hunt down there being to deny weapons shipments to Al Quaeda.

The 5th Fleet in Bahrain is technically the one responsible for that region. Iraq and the anti-Iranian animosities in the Gulf draw it from that purpose though, so units from 6th Fleet (and NATO partners) had to be redeployed to the 5th Fleet AoR for the above.

Doktor
13 Aug 11,, 12:30
Any updates on the issue? September is coming in a matter of days. Then what?

kato
13 Aug 11,, 13:57
France has since shifted their Rafales and Mirage 2000s from Solenzara/Corsica, the main French base used for attacks, to Sigonella/Sicily and Souda/Crete for better sortie rates. Mostly over the last 3 weeks. The Rafale presence at Sigonella will likely be further reinforced when the carrier departs.

Pedicabby
13 Aug 11,, 22:20
WAB Pilot wrote:
30 - 40% of NATO's airstrikes in Libya are coming from the French Carrier Charles de Gaulle. CdG cannot continue this pace forever. In fact, she will have to break off the engagement sometime this fall.

Why?


Sorry bout the dumb question but can they not just re supply the thing?

kato
13 Aug 11,, 22:52
Charles de Gaulle just pulled a continuous 10-month deployment, first on full strike operations on Afghanistan and a symmetric naval warfare exercise with India and then on Libya after switching out its air wing. There's a point where you just can't leave 'em at sea anymore.

10 months is actually a damn long time, and rather impressive. USN CVNs typically go on 6-month deployments, including arrival and departure occasionally up to 8 months.