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siddharth
23 May 11,, 12:53
This war is not very unlikely as China is having some internal issues and their way to silence them is declaring war on India just like the Sino-Indian war in 1962.
Assuming this happens, who would help India? Be it open military help or some covert help.

Doktor
23 May 11,, 13:02
Russia?

siddharth
23 May 11,, 13:13
I used to think that. But I recently came to know that Russia and China have become really good trading partners. :(

nvishal
23 May 11,, 13:50
You don't need to create new threads for everyone of your questions. There's a random thread in the WAB pub section. It will do.

siddharth
23 May 11,, 20:48
Thanks for that, I'm new here so didn't know that. :)

YellowFever
23 May 11,, 20:52
Wow, was looking at the "similar thread" section way in the bottom.

Didn't realize we already had 5 or 6 "India vs. China" threads.

We definitely need one more....

xinhui
23 May 11,, 20:54
This war is not very unlikely as China is having some internal issues and their way to silence them is declaring war on India just like the Sino-Indian war in 1962.
Assuming this happens, who would help India? Be it open military help or some covert help.

I think you need to read up the history about the cause of the Sino-India war of 1962 from non-Indian, non-Chinese sources, it was about Tibet. Kissinger's latest book "on China" seems to agree with that notion.

Parihaka
23 May 11,, 21:00
Wow, was looking at the "similar thread" section way in the bottom.

Didn't realize we already had 5 or 6 "India vs. China" threads.

We definitely need one more....

Oh there's plenty more than that, they're just in the bin

xinhui
23 May 11,, 21:02
Wow, was looking at the "similar thread" section way in the bottom.


We definitely need one more....

Errr. no we don't

gunnut
23 May 11,, 22:03
Great, our work shop is fighting our customer support center...:rolleyes:

Double Edge
23 May 11,, 23:21
I think you need to read up the history about the cause of the Sino-India war of 1962 from non-Indian, non-Chinese sources, it was about Tibet. Kissinger's latest book "on China" seems to agree with that notion.
Heard another reason as well, Nehru's repeated assertions at the time that India was the 'voice of Asia'.

Other point is you cannot get the Indian position on this, by that i mean the official one rather than 3rd party.

The police, intelligence, govt & military are all sworn to secrecy on this affair. We don't have a statute of limitations here so there is no saying when if ever things will be declassified.

667medic
24 May 11,, 04:24
Both China and India have come a long way since 1962. I don't understand the cause of the war but certainly don't subscribe to the "back stab theory" propagated in India's history books. BTW why would China declare war on India when every single Pakistani will cheerfully fight India to the last man.

Deltacamelately
24 May 11,, 06:25
Please go through ALL of the India/China threads available here, first.
I think at the end you wouldn't bother about India going to war with China and seeking third party help.

Blademaster
24 May 11,, 06:37
Both China and India have come a long way since 1962. I don't understand the cause of the war but certainly don't subscribe to the "back stab theory" propagated in India's history books. BTW why would China declare war on India when every single Pakistani will cheerfully fight India to the last man.

Well I do. Take a look at the map and see what China gained from the 1962 war.

Officer of Engineers
24 May 11,, 06:48
Well I do. Take a look at the map and see what China gained from the 1962 war.A military disaster?

Blademaster
24 May 11,, 07:33
They achieved absolute control over Tibet and control over the waters leading into India. India's position just became inferior.

667medic
24 May 11,, 08:34
They achieved absolute control over Tibet and control over the waters leading into India. India's position just became inferior.

This unfortunate situation could have been avoided if pragmatic heads had prevailed instead of posturing. I don't know about you but I wouldn't want to mess with a country which suffered close to 1million casualties fighting against a superpower.

Double Edge
24 May 11,, 09:28
I don't understand the cause of the war but certainly don't subscribe to the "back stab theory" propagated in India's history books.
And you are free to believe that or not because there is no way to rebutt it either way without knowing the official Indian position. Not possible to counter anything the Chinese, Americans or anybody else for that matter says. This is the main problem and for me was the end of the road on this subject.

Will agree that Tibet was the primary reason as there is a general consensus on that. But does that necessarily mean a war has to break out, can't say. The rest you have to piece together from various sources. Is it correct can't say and so on.

So when OOE says this was more of a PR win than a military one, will agree because India clammed up totally about it.

667medic
24 May 11,, 14:55
And you are free to believe that or not because there is no way to rebutt it either way without knowing the official Indian position. Not possible to counter anything the Chinese, Americans or anybody else for that matter says. This is the main problem and for me was the end of the road on this subject.

Will agree that Tibet was the primary reason as there is a general consensus on that. But does that necessarily mean a war has to break out, can't say. The rest you have to piece together from various sources. Is it correct can't say and so on.

So when OOE says this was more of a PR win than a military one, will agree because India clammed up totally about it.

So what stopped India from turning the tables on China. If Nehru was willing to foresake Assam, might have as well drawn the Chinese to the plains and then trapped them. I am not a professional analyst like OOE sir or Xinhui but my feeling is that Mao Zedong just gave Nehru a long rope to hang himself. Meaning, Mao prepared for war and negotiation at the same time and when Nehru upped the ante, Mao obliged. Something similar probably happed during the Georgia-Russia conflict. Saskhavilli got cocky and invaded not knowing that the Russians were prepared for him....

Blademaster
24 May 11,, 14:57
This unfortunate situation could have been avoided if pragmatic heads had prevailed instead of posturing. I don't know about you but I wouldn't want to mess with a country which suffered close to 1million casualties fighting against a superpower.

And that gives them license to **** us over?

Talk about appeasement.

Officer of Engineers
24 May 11,, 14:58
They achieved absolute control over Tibet and control over the waters leading into India. India's position just became inferior.They had that when India refused to march into Tibet to restore the DL.

Blademaster
24 May 11,, 15:00
So what stopped India from turning the tables on China. If Nehru was willing to foresake Assam, might have as well drawn the Chinese to the plains and then trapped them. I am not a professional analyst like OOE sir or Xinhui but my feeling is that Mao Zedong just gave Nehru a long rope to hang himself. Meaning, Mao prepared for war and negotiation at the same time and when Nehru upped the ante, Mao obliged. Something similar probably happed during the Georgia-Russia conflict. Saskhavilli got cocky and invaded not knowing that the Russians were prepared for him....

I agree that Nehru is solely to blame for this fiasco such as the unpreparedness of the IA and IAF and the sorry state they were in when 1962 war happened. I also blame him for chickening out at the last minute when IA was in a position to reclaim those territories back when the momentum was finally back on India's side. Nehru was a disaster to India but still that doesn't excuse China from being the aggressor.

Officer of Engineers
24 May 11,, 15:03
Well, not quite. There is a difference between trapping an exhausted force on your home turf and attacking prepared Chinese defences in Tibet. The initial InA problems of weather proofed gear and logistics still existed.

667medic
24 May 11,, 15:06
And that gives them license to **** us over?

Talk about appeasement.

Blade we are talking about two countried with different ideoligies.
1)China faced a superpower headon and suffered a million casualties, do you honestly believe India is capable of such a thing.

2)China suffered 30,000 casualties to teach a lesson to ungrateful Vietnam, does India command the same fear and respect WRT Bangladesh.

3)China arms the Chinese minorities in Burma and warns Burma from going overboard, India helped destroy LTTE and also allowed the death of Tamil civilians as collateral damage.

4)China defends her Island claims doggedly, India gifts an islan as a personal favour to a neighboring countrie's politician.

I am not talking appeasement, I am talking compromise. I am not saying that India gift territory to earn the right to be called a bitchh as another neighboring country but compromise for mutual benefit....

xinhui
24 May 11,, 17:08
Great, our work shop is fighting our customer support center...:rolleyes:

my case would be my coder fighting my system integrator. either way, it will make my life hell.

gunnut
24 May 11,, 18:11
my case would be my coder fighting my system integrator. either way, it will make my life hell.

My current work has a design team in India. My former work has system integrator in China. So my work is fighting each other...:biggrin:

Tronic
24 May 11,, 19:16
Blade we are talking about two countried with different ideoligies.
1)China faced a superpower headon and suffered a million casualties, do you honestly believe India is capable of such a thing.

2)China suffered 30,000 casualties to teach a lesson to ungrateful Vietnam, does India command the same fear and respect WRT Bangladesh.

3)China arms the Chinese minorities in Burma and warns Burma from going overboard, India helped destroy LTTE and also allowed the death of Tamil civilians as collateral damage.

4)China defends her Island claims doggedly, India gifts an islan as a personal favour to a neighboring countrie's politician.

I am not talking appeasement, I am talking compromise. I am not saying that India gift territory to earn the right to be called a bitchh as another neighboring country but compromise for mutual benefit....

India has a far lower tolerance for casualties, yes, but you are wrong if you think that China loosing 30,000 men to Vietnam makes the Vietnamese fear the Chinese. India-Bangladesh relations at the moment are far ahead of Chinese-Vietnamese relations.

As for LTTE, it was a foreign group fighting a foreign army in a foreign land. Moreover, it was a group which had assassinated a previous Indian PM. LTTE had outlived their usefulness (with the Cold War over, LTTE became more of a nuisance) to India, hence were allowed to be taken out. As for collateral damage, tell me a single war fought without such.

Blademaster
25 May 11,, 04:20
Well, not quite. There is a difference between trapping an exhausted force on your home turf and attacking prepared Chinese defences in Tibet. The initial InA problems of weather proofed gear and logistics still existed.

I meant recovering Askin Chin. The full force of China's troops retreating back to their lines of logistics necessitated that they retreated back to their original lines. Even the road they captured that linked Tibet with Xinjiang was not enough to resupply those troops. Failure of IA to take back those lands allowed PLA to consolidate their gains into a permanent foothold.

Blademaster
25 May 11,, 04:31
Blade we are talking about two countried with different ideoligies.
1)China faced a superpower headon and suffered a million casualties, do you honestly believe India is capable of such a thing. Perhaps not under the current leadership and if that party gets the lopping of the head off it so richly deserves, I think India is capable of that if India feels that her national survival is at stake. Come on, India stood up to one superpower and one major power at the same time when it severed Pakistan, albeit with USSR support.

When China fought US in the Korean War, USSR practically armed PRC itself to fight against US although Stalin intended to fight US to the last Chinese soldier. China was not alone when she fought against US in the Korean War and tacitly, she was under the nuclear umbrella of USSR during the Korean War. Why did you think Truman fired MacArthur when MacArthur was advocating the use of nukes against China. MacArthur nor the US did not fear China. They feared the USSR.



2)China suffered 30,000 casualties to teach a lesson to ungrateful Vietnam, does India command the same fear and respect WRT Bangladesh.
Actually Bangladesh finally wants to do business with India. It is India that Bangladesh needs. India does not need to command fear or respect WRT Bangladesh because there is no necessity for that. It is simply unavoidable that in order for Bangladesh to thrive, it will have to deal with India on India's terms. No ifs, buts and ors about it. Geography demands that. Not even China can force India to concede WRT Bangladesh and China knows this. India holds the cards and China is smart enough to know that.



3)China arms the Chinese minorities in Burma and warns Burma from going overboard, India helped destroy LTTE and also allowed the death of Tamil civilians as collateral damage.

LTTE turned rabid. When a dog turns rabid, you don't hesitate to put that animal down. What India failed is to find a replacement for LTTE. But there is still hope. There's a sizable Tamil minority that the Sinhalese cannot just wish away and that minority has a strong base of supporters that are now in the open in India after LTTE had been finally defeated. That is something that India did not have before because LTTE necessitated those supporters into hiding after LTTE whacked one of our leaders. Now the supporters are out in the open, I wouldn't be surprised that in the coming years, the Tamil minority have more political and economical clout than ever before.



4)China defends her Island claims doggedly, India gifts an islan as a personal favour to a neighboring countrie's politician.

I am not talking appeasement, I am talking compromise. I am not saying that India gift territory to earn the right to be called a bitchh as another neighboring country but compromise for mutual benefit....

I never heard that India gifted an island to a neighboring country. Please provide the source and news.

Officer of Engineers
25 May 11,, 04:31
It would have been a tough fight with no guarantee of an acceptable outcome. The Chinese may have been exhausted but the lack of winter gear and logistics would have played havoc on any Indian advance.

Given the two, I would have given the advantage to the Chinese. Yes, they were exhausted ... but they can recover. The same cannot be said of the Indian forces. The advancing Indian column has to win fast and win hard, failing that, the advantage falls to the Chinese and falls big time to the Chinese.

Blademaster
25 May 11,, 04:34
It would have been a tough fight with no guarantee of an acceptable outcome. The Chinese may have been exhausted but the lack of winter gear and logistics would have played havoc on any Indian advance.

Given the two, I would have given the advantage to the Chinese. Yes, they were exhausted ... but they can recover. The same cannot be said of the Indian forces. The advancing Indian column has to win fast and win hard, failing that, the advantage falls to the Chinese and falls big time to the Chinese.

I think if you talked to Ray, Ray would tell you that IA was finally in a position to get that land back and hold on to it against Chinese counterattacks. US military support was finally in the swing and was capable of resupplying IA on a consistent basis.

But also remember, China was operating on a tight timeline and that timeline would have hamper Chinese more than it would have against Indians.

Officer of Engineers
25 May 11,, 04:39
I think if you talked to Ray, Ray would tell you that IA was finally in a position to get that land back and hold on to it against Chinese counterattacks. US military support was finally in the swing and was capable of resupplying IA on a consistent basis.My recollection from the good Brigadier was 1967 timeframe when the InA finally got their act together. I am speaking of 1962 in the midst of a mobile war with movements from and to the front.


But also remember, China was operating on a tight timeline and that timeline would have hamper Chinese more than it would have against Indians.1962? I am unaware of any timeline the Chinese were observing. I maintain, though, the Chinese LOC had collapsed and had the Indians marched forth, they would have caught the Chinese force before they crossed back into Tibet.

Blademaster
25 May 11,, 04:45
My recollection from the good Brigadier was 1967 timeframe when the InA finally got their act together. I am speaking of 1962 in the midst of a mobile war with movements from and to the front.
I stand corrected, then. But I thought that after that initial shellacking and numerous officers removed, the IA got their act together and put together a counter offensive that would have taken the land back with IAF support.



1962? I am unaware of any timeline the Chinese were observing. I maintain, though, the Chinese LOC had collapsed and had the Indians marched forth, they would have caught the Chinese force before they crossed back into Tibet.

1962 war occurred in October and the winter was rapidly approaching in November and PLA has not trained for mountain warfare up in the himilayas during winter time. PLA had to withdraw before winter could hamper their efforts. And that included the Askin Chin area.

Officer of Engineers
25 May 11,, 04:51
I stand corrected, then. But I thought that after that initial shellacking and numerous officers removed, the IA got their act together and put together a counter offensive that would have taken the land back with IAF support.But you've got your land back without firing a single shot? The Chinese withdrew. For whatever reason. However, that is a far cry from advancing on prepared Chinese defences.


1962 war occurred in October and the winter was rapidly approaching in November and PLA has not trained for mountain warfare up in the himilayas during winter time. PLA had to withdraw before winter could hamper their efforts. And that included the Askin Chin area.The Chinese were obviously more prepared than the Indians. The original InA problems were not solved just because fresh units marched forth.

Given the status at the time, Chinese defences were prepared. Indian attacks were not. Hell, to this date, the Indians still do not know which Chinese regiments and which Chinese generals, never mind which Chinese Colonels, were in theatre. Given such lack of intel, any Indian advance onto prepared Chinese defences would more than likely met with disaster.

Blademaster
25 May 11,, 04:54
But you've got your land back without firing a single shot? The Chinese withdrew. For whatever reason. However, that is a far cry from advancing on prepared Chinese defences.

The Chinese were obviously more prepared than the Indians. The original InA problems were not solved just because fresh units marched forth.

Given the status at the time, Chinese defences were prepared. Indian attacks were not. Hell, to this date, the Indians still do not know which Chinese regiments and which Chinese generals, never mind which Chinese Colonels, were in theatre. Given such lack of intel, any Indian advance onto prepared Chinese defences would more than likely met with disaster.

What about recee till death?

Officer of Engineers
25 May 11,, 04:57
You mean recee by death. You send a force out and when you lose contact, you know whatever kill your force is bigger and nastier than the one you sent out.

The problem is that the Chinese would also have their recee out. All you know is that a bigger force kill your recee and not necessary the enemy's vanguard or mainforce. It could just be a bigger, meaner, enemy recee.

Blademaster
25 May 11,, 06:16
The problem is that the Chinese would also have their recee out. All you know is that a bigger force kill your recee and not necessary the enemy's vanguard or mainforce. It could just be a bigger, meaner, enemy recee.

I don't think that the area in question would permit that kind of recee. If you have to have recee in force, you might as well go for the whole 10 yards.

Officer of Engineers
25 May 11,, 07:39
That would be regimental level.

Double Edge
25 May 11,, 10:37
So what stopped India from turning the tables on China. If Nehru was willing to foresake Assam, might have as well drawn the Chinese to the plains and then trapped them.
How to answer this question given the current available knowledge :confused:

Consider you have a telecope or binoculars and are peering into your neighbours property, you can see things from a afar and over time make some conclusions. But that will never compare to what ppl inside the house know. This is what you can expect from a neutral 3rd party like the americans or british.

Everytime you try to dig under the surface you hit a wall. So all you are left with at best are educated guesses. And there are pleny of those from ex-mil with axes to grind, journalists of different political shades & finally idelaogues also of different political hues. Can't build too much with that, if the story keeps changing subtly (or not so subtly) from one person to the next.

You can believe whatever you want but it wil not be easy to know whether it is accurate as there is next to zero official input from the Indian side wrt to this war.

commander
08 Jun 11,, 17:42
Has the question been answered or is it me who can't find it ????


In the event of China declaring war on India, which country would be helping India?

nvishal
08 Jun 11,, 18:19
^
Can't you make this out for yourself? Does not indias "go it alone" approach make it obvious enough for you?

OP wouldn't have asked this question if he understood at least the basics of geopolitics. The china-pakistan pact is not based on benevolence. You must think it is.

payeng
17 Jun 11,, 09:05
Has the question been answered or is it me who can't find it ????

You never know as future is unpredictable.