PDA

View Full Version : Libya updates



Pages : [1] 2

cyppok
02 Mar 11,, 13:43
Qaddafi Attacks East Libya to Wrest Control of Oil Facilities From Rebels - Yahoo! Finance (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Qaddafi-Attacks-East-Libya-to-bloomberg-244236094.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=1&asset=&ccode=)



Qaddafi Attacks East Libya to Wrest Control of Oil Facilities From Rebels

Ola Galal and Mariam Fam, On Wednesday March 2, 2011, 6:16 am EST

Libyan forces loyal to Muammar Qaddafi counterattacked against rebels who have seized the east coast ports where much of the country’s oil is refined or shipped abroad.

Qaddafi’s forces won back control of Brega on the Gulf of Sidra early today, and then lost it again to the rebels, Al Jazeera television reported. State television said government troops control the airport and port. The town, southwest of the opposition’s main base in Benghazi, contains a refinery and tanker terminal. A weapons depot in Ajdabiya, about 40 miles (64 kilometers) northeast of Brega, was bombarded and a convoy of vehicles carrying pro-Qaddafi troops was seen headed toward the town, the British Broadcasting Corp. said.
The Libyan Fox at Bay by Eric Margolis (http://www.lewrockwell.com/margolis/margolis229.html)
cool article gives some perspective.

My feeling is this is more a tribal issue than a freedom issue. Someone decided they could tip the balance by funding part of the tribes and setting them against each other to force a leadership change to benefit from.

Differences between Libya and others is that there is a large tribal structure present AND their leader sort of is more or less more involved in military matters, ergo at least part of the army was going to keep loyalty. Libya is most similar in this respect to Syria.

cyppok
02 Mar 11,, 20:47
Libyan civil war deepens as rebels beat back Khadafy forces in three towns - NYPOST.com (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/libya_rebels_in_rout_2u55BpAAYvQODuRrIO4yyI)


In Washington, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton warned Congress that the civil war could go on.

"In the years ahead, Libya could become a peaceful democracy or it could face protracted civil war, or it could descend into chaos. The stakes are high," she said.

In other developments:

* Khadafy fired his most trusted aide, his bloodthirsty brother-in-law, Gen. Abdullah Senussi, as intelligence chief and replaced him with one of his bodyguards, the Libyan newspaper Quryna reported.

* Clinton said the Obama administration might try to prosecute Khadafy for the 1988 Lockerbie bombing. Some Libyan officials who defected in recent weeks have said Khadafy ordered the terrorist attack on Pan Am Flight 103.

* Defense Secretary Robert Gates told reporters that the Pentagon was moving two amphibious assault ships and hundreds of Marines into the Mediterranean.

* The UN General Assembly voted to suspend Libya from the UN Human Rights Council.



Another money drain.

Roosveltrepub
03 Mar 11,, 14:22
Libya seizes NATO troops during rescue mission - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41883479/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/)
3 dutch marines siezed in Libya.

cyppok
03 Mar 11,, 22:11
The problem with playing with someone like Kadaffy is that in the end if he is loosing, he knows he has nowhere to go. Which means he will probably detonate all the oil infrastructure to prevent it from falling into the hands of the "colonizers".

I think what happened is that Lybia had a clash between tribal interests revolving around oil revenue sharing add to that the general sizes of foreign workers (competing for low wages with residents) from countries whom are not oil/gas producers you get a very unstable society.

I actually think the mistake was made at the very beginning somehow supporting the movement in the east. Its not really a win win for anyone no matter how it ends.

Double Edge
04 Mar 11,, 08:50
The problem with playing with someone like Kadaffy is that in the end if he is loosing, he knows he has nowhere to go. Which means he will probably detonate all the oil infrastructure to prevent it from falling into the hands of the "colonizers".
Depends if safe passage to a neutral country can be worked out or not.


I think what happened is that Lybia had a clash between tribal interests revolving around oil revenue sharing add to that the general sizes of foreign workers (competing for low wages with residents) from countries whom are not oil/gas producers you get a very unstable society.
Ok, but this has been going on for a while, so why does it suddenly blow up now ?

Did they get inspired by the Egyptians & Tunisians.


I actually think the mistake was made at the very beginning somehow supporting the movement in the east. Its not really a win win for anyone no matter how it ends.
Gaddafi never really had much trust in the east so this might have been the start. He made sure they got second best compared to those that did trust him.

cyppok
04 Mar 11,, 16:40
Depends if safe passage to a neutral country can be worked out or not.


Ok, but this has been going on for a while, so why does it suddenly blow up now ?

Did they get inspired by the Egyptians & Tunisians.

Gaddafi never really had much trust in the east so this might have been the start. He made sure they got second best compared to those that did trust him.
{it blows up when there is no way for him to win or a coalition force lands on Libya}
{perhaps, the odd thing is if he had no support he wouldn't control the other half of the country if he has support from the second/third largest tribe, berbers and others that means its a civil war and not an overthrow}

About safe passage you surely jest? cause they already said they would try to re-trial him for his conduct now and previously. He knows there is no out.

This article
Libya War Draws Chavez, Arab Mediation Offer as Qaddafi Attacks - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-02/qaddafi-attacks-east-libya-in-struggle-to-wrest-oil-facilities-from-rebels.html)


Two U.S. Navy warships with Marines aboard will arrive off Libya within a day or two for possible humanitarian operations, said Josh Diddams, a spokesman for the Marine Corps at the Pentagon. U.S. Chief of Naval Operations Admiral Gary Roughead said two aircraft carriers are already in the region and a third is preparing for deployment there from Norfolk, Virginia.

U.K. Foreign Minister William Hague spoke with General Abdul Fattah Younis, who resigned as interior minister on Feb. 23 to join the opposition in Benghazi, and told him Britain is working on contingency planning “for all eventualities, including a no-fly zone,” according to Hague’s office.

There will be repercussions to this globally if the marines land for "humanitarian reasons." if an artificial division is made to keep a frozen conflict/division of country it might get interesting. The play to install leadership that is west compliant might backfire.

Fresh protests hit Libyan capital - Africa - Al Jazeera English (http://english.aljazeera.net/video/africa/2011/03/20113410441210846.html)



Rebels have vowed "victory or death" as they headed towards the oil terminal, with reports that trucks of armed anti-Gaddafi fighters are heading towards the area.

"We're going to take it all, Ras Lanuf, Tripoli," Magdi Mohammed, an army defector, fingering the pin of a grenade, told Reuters.

Opposition protesters in the country's east have set up advanced positions 50km west of Brega, which lies in between Gaddafi's hometown of Sirte and the opposition-held port of Benghazi, and sits near ethnic fault lines between tribes loyal to the leader.
The problem with this is that if the split occured on tribal lines even if Qadaffi is gone there will be a conflict to not let them "take it all".

Double Edge
04 Mar 11,, 20:59
{it blows up when there is no way for him to win or a coalition force lands on Libya}
I meant on Feb 17 when it started.


{perhaps, the odd thing is if he had no support he wouldn't control the other half of the country if he has support from the second/third largest tribe, berbers and others that means its a civil war and not an overthrow}
They made a deal with him as there was no alternative at the time unlike now.


About safe passage you surely jest? cause they already said they would try to re-trial him for his conduct now and previously. He knows there is no out.
Right, so in hindsight was the bolded bit wise as it left him no out ?

I'm under the impression it was made on the strength of the allegations of his resigned interior minister about the Pan Am bombing.


There will be repercussions to this globally if the marines land for "humanitarian reasons." if an artificial division is made to keep a frozen conflict/division of country it might get interesting. The play to install leadership that is west compliant might backfire.
I'm going on the assumption this is meant to be a credible bluff. No intervention but a threatening presence close by. Are all westerners out of the country yet ?


Fresh protests hit Libyan capital - Africa - Al Jazeera English (http://english.aljazeera.net/video/africa/2011/03/20113410441210846.html)

The problem with this is that if the split occured on tribal lines even if Qadaffi is gone there will be a conflict to not let them "take it all".
Partitioning would send the wrong message. Libyans have not reached the point where this question has come up yet.

cyppok
05 Mar 11,, 00:10
I do not think moving the amphibious landing vessel and moving carrier(s) for air support is a bluff. My feeling is the landing will be marketed as a "training advisor" mission to train the rebels to retake the rest of the country along with supplies of military materiel.

The problems to doing this is it basically means if your strong enough you can geopolitically strong arm through force the political events of other countries where interests economic or otherwise are apparent. What happens if Iran goes into Iraq post pullout because they need to secure the Najaf shrine? it will be marketed the same way as a stabilization mechanism, or Saudi Arabia into Yemen? In some sense this creates an incentive to create vassal states and installing leaders that serve external interests.

It is foolish to believe that there will be stability and improvement post-change, other than an image and a media view that will be colored with rose colored glasses we will not know if its better or worse. The truth is important not my truth or your truth or rebels or Qadaffi but the actual state of things.

Dago
05 Mar 11,, 21:59
I do not think moving the amphibious landing vessel and moving carrier(s) for air support is a bluff. My feeling is the landing will be marketed as a "training advisor" mission to train the rebels to retake the rest of the country along with supplies of military materiel.

The problems to doing this is it basically means if your strong enough you can geopolitically strong arm through force the political events of other countries where interests economic or otherwise are apparent. What happens if Iran goes into Iraq post pullout because they need to secure the Najaf shrine? it will be marketed the same way as a stabilization mechanism, or Saudi Arabia into Yemen? In some sense this creates an incentive to create vassal states and installing leaders that serve external interests.

It is foolish to believe that there will be stability and improvement post-change, other than an image and a media view that will be colored with rose colored glasses we will not know if its better or worse. The truth is important not my truth or your truth or rebels or Qadaffi but the actual state of things.

Vassal states? Dude what is Iraq and Afghanistan? How about the last half of century? That's all history knows. Your making it sound like it's any different.

Double Edge
06 Mar 11,, 00:08
I do not think moving the amphibious landing vessel and moving carrier(s) for air support is a bluff. My feeling is the landing will be marketed as a "training advisor" mission to train the rebels to retake the rest of the country along with supplies of military materiel.
Or there could just be supplies to the rebels. There's a big coast and no Libyan navy to speak of. These ppl will do anything to win, there's no going back now.


The problems to doing this is it basically means if your strong enough you can geopolitically strong arm through force the political events of other countries where interests economic or otherwise are apparent. What happens if Iran goes into Iraq post pullout because they need to secure the Najaf shrine? it will be marketed the same way as a stabilization mechanism, or Saudi Arabia into Yemen? In some sense this creates an incentive to create vassal states and installing leaders that serve external interests.
There would have to be exceptional reasons to intervene, i suspect there aren't any yet.


It is foolish to believe that there will be stability and improvement post-change, other than an image and a media view that will be colored with rose colored glasses we will not know if its better or worse. The truth is important not my truth or your truth or rebels or Qadaffi but the actual state of things.
Would you agree that the least worst scenario is for the rebels to win ?

There's three adjacent countries here which the world is ready to help. They will serve as a formidable agent for change in the Arab world. Libya has oil, unlike bombed out Germany & Japan and they did fine post war.

kato
06 Mar 11,, 02:16
There's three adjacent countries here which the world is ready to help.
I've yet to see anyone willing to help any particular side in Libya. The only ones pushing for a no-flight zone are the UK. There's quite a lot of states who'd love it if it all just "went away" and we'd be back to the status quo ante. And if we're truthful about it, the same would go for Egypt too. Tunisia not so much, then again nothing has really changed in Tunisia.

The problem with the rebels is that they're not even united in the first place. They're splintered, heavily - every town is fighting for itself. There are attempts coming from Bengazi to unify the effort and bring the defected troops into a cohesive military format, but even at that they're hindering themselves by saying "we have to take Tripolis first". Quite seriously, it's no wonder there isn't really much movement in Libya either way. And it's no wonder Gaddafi hasn't seen the need yet to just drop a couple hundred Scuds on Bengazi yet, but instead actually acts with an astonishing measure.

And regarding the splintering, i see a lot of problems there even if the rebels win. Just take the "innocent" fact that there's Royal Flags being waved in the East - if we get down to it, that's not a Libyan flag (Libya was only a unitary state under Idris for all of six years during the last century), that's a flag symbolizing both the victory of Cyrenaica over Tripolitania and Fezzan, the supremacy of the Sanussi bedouins over their peers, and some nebulous monarchical allusion with no clear aspirant in sight - all rolled into one. The rebels win, this could turn into a real civil war.

Double Edge
06 Mar 11,, 08:37
I've yet to see anyone willing to help any particular side in Libya.
I meant after the rebels win by themselves. That the world would help to build up their economies like Germany & Japan, post WW2.


The only ones pushing for a no-flight zone are the UK. There's quite a lot of states who'd love it if it all just "went away" and we'd be back to the status quo ante. And if we're truthful about it, the same would go for Egypt too.
Sure


Tunisia not so much, then again nothing has really changed in Tunisia.
Don't follow what you mean by nothing has changed in Tunisia ?

Once they hold their elections, it will be a different country. There are those that disagree with that notion as they see this as just the head decapitated but the state apparatus of the previous regime is still very much intact. There are dictators in the bureaucracy & security forces so to speak. But if the ppl could overthrow the head, then these other dictators can be taken care of as well. Otherwise the fight isn't over yet.


The problem with the rebels is that they're not even united in the first place. They're splintered, heavily - every town is fighting for itself. There are attempts coming from Bengazi to unify the effort and bring the defected troops into a cohesive military format, but even at that they're hindering themselves by saying "we have to take Tripolis first". Quite seriously, it's no wonder there isn't really much movement in Libya either way. And it's no wonder Gaddafi hasn't seen the need yet to just drop a couple hundred Scuds on Bengazi yet, but instead actually acts with an astonishing measure.
Neither side sees the other as overly threatening yet. They'll get to it at their own pace. There was rebel movement towards towns closer to Tripoli earlier last week but it appears to have been fought back.


And regarding the splintering, i see a lot of problems there even if the rebels win. Just take the "innocent" fact that there's Royal Flags being waved in the East - if we get down to it, that's not a Libyan flag (Libya was only a unitary state under Idris for all of six years during the last century), that's a flag symbolizing both the victory of Cyrenaica over Tripolitania and Fezzan, the supremacy of the Sanussi bedouins over their peers, and some nebulous monarchical allusion with no clear aspirant in sight - all rolled into one. The rebels win, this could turn into a real civil war.
This is an interesting point. I was thinking earlier that there isn't the Shia-Sunni split in Libya like there is in Iraq and this was just a matter of Sunni tribes fighting it out. About the flag, wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Libya) says..


1951–1969

The flag of the Kingdom of Libya was adopted when Libya gained independence in 1951 from Italy. It consisted of a white crescent-and-star on a triband red-black-green design, with the central black band being twice the width of the outer bands. The design was based on the banner of the Senussi dynasty from Cyrenaica, which consisted of a black field and crescent-and-star design, and was later used as the flag of the region. The red represented the region of Fezzan, while the green came from the banner of Tripolitania.

If it was just the Cyrenaica flag then i would agree it symbolises the victory of one area over the others kind like the official Libyan flag currently, all green representing the victory of Tripolitania over Fezzan & Cyrenaica. But this is a tricolour and comprises all three areas. Also, note the difference in height of the bands between the old kingdom flag and the present one used by the protesters. Looks equitable to me :)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Flag_of_Libya_(1951).svg/120px-Flag_of_Libya_(1951).svg.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Libyan_protesters_flag_(observed_2011).svg/120px-Libyan_protesters_flag_(observed_2011).svg.png

In the end most of the oil is supposed to be in centre, area covering all three tribes. If it degenerates into yet another civil war there might be higher chances of UN intervention and power sharing or wealth sharing to be worked out.

tankie
06 Mar 11,, 14:12
Dear me , its not like these lads to slip up , i like Mr Fox's reply tho . :rolleyes:




Eight SAS soldiers have been detained by rebels in Libya, according to Sky News sources.



Rebel sources told Sky that the group are being held in Libya's second city in Benghazi.

The Ministry of Defence and the Foreign Office have neither confirmed or denied the report but Defence Secretary Liam Fox has confirmed that a "small diplomatic team" is in Benghazi to talk to Libyan rebels. :biggrin::biggrin:

Mr Fox declined to comment on reports the SAS unit guarding the team had been detained.

"We are in touch with them but it would be inappropriate for me to comment further on that" he told the Andrew Marr show.

According to the Sky sources the eight SAS members were among a group of around 22 soldiers and one diplomat believed to have been dropped by helicopter in an area south of the Benghazi.

Only eight were detained and it is expected that they will be released either today or tomorrow.

There is speculation it could be an attempt by the rebels to ensure the interim Libyan council receives diplomatic recognition.

The SAS's intervention has allegedly angered Libyan opposition figures who ordered the armed and plain-clothes soldiers to be locked up on a military base.

Opponents of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's fear he could use any evidence of western military interference to rally patriotic support for his regime.

Sky News defence correspondent Niall Paterson said: "The feeling in London is that the rebels who have taken the SAS members and junior diplomat are simply making a point.

"There is no feeling this will end badly."

:: Libyan warplanes are reported to have launched airstrikes on rebels advancing on Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's stronghold of Sirte 350 miles (560km) west of Benghazi


EDIT

Eight SAS soldiers who had been detained by Libyan rebels near Benghazi have left the country aboard HMS Cumberland, according to Sky News sources.

kato
06 Mar 11,, 15:14
note the difference in height of the bands between the old kingdom flag and the present one used by the protesters.
Seen both versions being waved actually :biggrin:

http://www.abload.de/img/1100169_0_gross_online2oad.jpg


covering all three tribes.
That's part of the problem - it's not just three groups. There are at least five major and a dozen minor Bedouin and at least two Berber-speaking tribes in Libya, plus Touareg and Tubu effectively covering Fezzan. Plus the urbanized population consisting of Arabs and two million African immigrants of course.


Once they hold their elections, it will be a different country.
Once they hold their elections. Right now, before that? Tunisia has already turned back into what it effectively was: A prime cheap vacation spot for Europeans that had a population somewhere in the background that was held in check by the military and police. That hasn't really changed so far.

Double Edge
06 Mar 11,, 19:44
Dear me , its not like these lads to slip up , i like Mr Fox's reply tho . :rolleyes:
Happens to the best of us mate :biggrin:

All out and safe now. Strict ROE's i suspect.


Seen both versions being waved actually :biggrin:
True.


That's part of the problem - it's not just three groups. There are at least five major and a dozen minor Bedouin and at least two Berber-speaking tribes in Libya, plus Touareg and Tubu effectively covering Fezzan. Plus the urbanized population consisting of Arabs and two million African immigrants of course.
So you are thinking potential Darfur situation like in Sudan ?


Once they hold their elections. Right now, before that? Tunisia has already turned back into what it effectively was: A prime cheap vacation spot for Europeans that had a population somewhere in the background that was held in check by the military and police. That hasn't really changed so far.
Have to get the tourists back. They have not set a date for the elections AFAIK.

kato
06 Mar 11,, 20:32
So you are thinking potential Darfur situation like in Sudan ?
Well, not to the same extent really. But there's potential for a lot of fracturing - at least if the rebels don't manage to coordinate themselves into some sort of organized structure (unlike the current situation). Cyrenaica in particular is very splintered, and this is currently visible to some extent in that Bengasi doesn't really have any control over the other cities there.


Have to get the tourists back.
Germany (one of the primary source of tourists in Tunisia) just upped its travel warning for the country on February 27th btw. It now reads:
"Travellers in Tunisia should restrict themselves to the coastal tourist areas including Djerba. We urgently dissuade from unnecessary travels to other regions. Hotel complexes should only be left as part of guided tours."

The effect of the revolution so far was mostly some pressure on prices. You can get a one-week vacation in Monastir or Hammamet including flights from Germany for €270 (!) now, four-day trips to Zarzis close to the Libyan border run about €400-450. Similar prices apply for Egypt.

Edit: Scratch that - just found a offer for one week in Monastir for €187. Take-off on March 22nd from Düsseldorf. Four spots still free. ;)

cyppok
07 Mar 11,, 00:04
Gaddafi's men launch counterattack - Africa - Al Jazeera English (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/201136153525295812.html)

I kind of get the feeling that the ebb & flow of clashes is aimed at "did you have enough and are you going to stop now?" mental push. Most of them are raiding and damage inflicting in nature with no real battle lines pushed to enforce control.

While the rebels have a strong presence in Ras Lanuf, they told Al Jazeera's Rowland that the town was still held by Gaddafi loyalists.

The interesting part in this article is the tank push on Misruta which is very important in a tribal sense.


Meanwhile, the European Union has sent experts into Libya to get "real time" information on humanitarian and evacuation efforts there.
Read more of our Libya coverage

"I have decided to dispatch this high level mission to provide me with first-hand, real-time information to feed into the discussions leading up to Friday's extraordinary European Council when I will update heads of state and government on the situation," Catherine Ashton, EU foreign minister, said on Sunday.
Translation = Noone knows WT* is going on on the ground because everyone keeps claiming victory.

The Tripoli Post - Libya News and Business (http://www.tripolipost.com/)
Thought it would be interesting but not really.


I keep trying to get 3rd party news that is not western or eastern or pro/against just boots on ground straight stuff but not successful.

http://korrespondent.net/world/1193417-sily-kaddafi-pereshli-v-kontrnastuplenie
Here it says that they actually entered Misurata, but were beaten back by the defenders.

cyppok
08 Mar 11,, 17:30
Rebels set demands for Gaddafi exit - Africa - Al Jazeera English (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/201138133847222111.html)


Rebels will not pursue Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi over crimes they say he has committed if he steps down from his post in the next 72 hours, the head of the rebel National Libyan Council has told Al Jazeera.

"If he leaves Libya immediately, during 72 hours, and stops the bombardment, we as Libyans will step back from pursuing him for crimes," Mustafa Abdel Jalil, head of the opposition National Council, told Al Jazeera on Tuesday.

He said the deadline would not be extended beyond 72 hours.

A few days ago any negotiation was out of the question.

"Based on our love for our country we have proposed to the [Gaddafi's] indirect negotiators that a solution can be reached," Jalil told Al Jazeera.


"Conditions are that firstly he stops all combat in the fields, secondly that his departure is within 72 hours; thirdly we may waive our right of domestic prosecution ... for the crimes of oppression, persecution, starvation and massacres.

"We will have to wait and see what the regime's response is."

The rest of the article is very telling, its an ultimatum of strength from a position of weakness. It is very likely that the representatives of the gov't tried to negotiate surrender options for the rebels rather than vice versa.

The video is very interesting. The guy says that Kadaffy announced that he is no longer in power... around the 4 min mark... Now then why ask him to step down if he is no longer controlling anything?
This goes to my argument that its more of a tribal issue, and in the end there will be a struggle against granting power to a tribe of a different province in your own.

cyppok
11 Mar 11,, 01:15
Rebel forces retreat from Ras Lanuf - Africa - Al Jazeera English (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/201131041228856242.html)


In an interview with Reuters news agency, Gaddafi's son Saif al-Islam said the time had come for full scale military action against the rebels.

"There is no more chance for negotiations with rebels fighting the Libyan government," he said on Thursday.

He said the military would never give up, that they will fight in Libya and die in Libya.

In a press conference late on Thursday, Khalid al-Kaim, Libya's deputy foreign minister, reiterated that it was "clear" that most anti-government protesters and fighters were members of al-Qaeda.

seems there is a push now to end this

Libya plans full offensive against rebels (http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle09.asp?xfile=data/international/2011/March/international_March552.xml&section=international)

What is particularly interesting about the "No-Fly" zone is that most people ignore the consequence of once it being established having sorties to favor one or the other side which in essence becomes not just defensive but offensive intervention.

diablo49
11 Mar 11,, 04:38
Any thoughts on the consequences to Europe and/or America should Gadhafi successfully quash the rebellion?

Is it even an option to let Gadhafi remain given the great danger this would pose to 'Western' interests after we turned on him?

citanon
11 Mar 11,, 06:13
Any thoughts on the consequences to Europe and/or America should Gadhafi successfully quash the rebellion?

Is it even an option to let Gadhafi remain given the great danger this would pose to 'Western' interests after we turned on him?

I put a few of my thoughts together for the other thread:

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/arab-revolutions-2010-2011/58889-no-fly-zone-libya-15.html#post794357

T_igger_cs_30
11 Mar 11,, 06:35
This is turning into a cluster real quick............. normally I am more patient with things at this level as I cannot influence the outcome........ as far as I am concerned on this......Europe should lead the way, and the UK needs to be up front............. we are fast aproaching a no win situation ....qadaffi is a bastard of the first order and if anyone thinks he will forget all this rhetoric thats being spouted now by all governments well more fool them.............. Its gone to far he has to be taken down and out.

cyppok
11 Mar 11,, 21:23
This is turning into a cluster real quick............. normally I am more patient with things at this level as I cannot influence the outcome........ as far as I am concerned on this......Europe should lead the way, and the UK needs to be up front............. we are fast aproaching a no win situation ....qadaffi is a bastard of the first order and if anyone thinks he will forget all this rhetoric thats being spouted now by all governments well more fool them.............. Its gone to far he has to be taken down and out.


So what your saying installing a client leader is better for external groups because it gives them a media win they can showcase while it may not materially improve things for the people in the country in the long run. We should do it because it is "right" for us at least...

I do not think Europe or US picking a tribal leader from the east will satisfy the tribes in the west. The only way it gets sorted is if they fight it out and someone wins without outside interference. Democracy is great the problem is thus far the US and Europe have backed almost every single failed regime in there (at least from the perspective of people living under them).

T_igger_cs_30
11 Mar 11,, 21:53
So what your saying installing a client leader is better for external groups because it gives them a media win they can showcase while it may not materially improve things for the people in the country in the long run. We should do it because it is "right" for us at least...

I do not think Europe or US picking a tribal leader from the east will satisfy the tribes in the west. The only way it gets sorted is if they fight it out and someone wins without outside interference. Democracy is great the problem is thus far the US and Europe have backed almost every single failed regime in there (at least from the perspective of people living under them).

You are entitled to your opinion as am I ......... right or wrong........... as I said if you think qadaffi will forget any of this you are sadly mistaken........... oh and I never picked the rebels to win................ just pointed out what I thought was going to be a hinderance to them......................let them fight it out........... whats your plan for dealing with an even more arrogant and twisted dictator after the fighting is over?

Mihais
11 Mar 11,, 22:25
His sons will take his place.Either way the old man is done.What is reasonably sure right now is that while a good portion of the population want him gone,an undetermined one wants him to stay.Like it has been written quite often,we know nothing of the rebels.If they can bring only an estimated 5-10000 armed men to battle after capturing army and police barracks there is something fishy about the commitment of the majority.It's true that revolutions are made by violent minorities,but if the more people aren't willing to die for their cause,it's their problem.

Limited informations lead to wrong conclusions,but so far that's what I could gather.

cyppok
12 Mar 11,, 03:39
You are entitled to your opinion as am I ......... right or wrong........... as I said if you think qadaffi will forget any of this you are sadly mistaken........... oh and I never picked the rebels to win................ just pointed out what I thought was going to be a hinderance to them......................let them fight it out........... whats your plan for dealing with an even more arrogant and twisted dictator after the fighting is over?

Mutual economic beneficial trade, no matter how arrogant there is stuff they need globally and that they can provide. Whatever they do internally for the most part should not be up to us to decide, very limiting circumstances excepted.

I am certain had the rebels won they would not have forget anyone whom sided against them either so that argument is moot. Hurting others in the name of democracy or autocracy is still hurting people no matter which way.

citanon
12 Mar 11,, 05:05
His sons will take his place.Either way the old man is done.What is reasonably sure right now is that while a good portion of the population want him gone,an undetermined one wants him to stay.Like it has been written quite often,we know nothing of the rebels.If they can bring only an estimated 5-10000 armed men to battle after capturing army and police barracks there is something fishy about the commitment of the majority.It's true that revolutions are made by violent minorities,but if the more people aren't willing to die for their cause,it's their problem.

Limited informations lead to wrong conclusions,but so far that's what I could gather.

There's nothing fishy about people not wanting to go up against tanks and artillery armed with rifles, toyotas and no training. Also nothing shocking about former military elements holding back and conserving forces while letting most strident protesters get themselves killed. Really par for the course in this kind of thing. Information on the ground from liberated cities, however, make it clear that the peopel don't want Qadhaffi back under any circumstances.

T_igger_cs_30
12 Mar 11,, 17:36
that argument is moot.

I am not interested in debating this, its gone to far, we had to ensure the rebels won this.......my opinion right or wrong time will tell......... if qadaffi pulls this off and its looking like he will the conequences will be far reaching ............ bury your head in the sand........you might think you can "negotiate" with qadaffi and his boys....

Mihais
12 Mar 11,, 18:03
RSM,if the European powers involved in this mess can't be relied to send a few SF teams and 2 cargo planes with weapons than they deserve to negociate with the likes of Gaddafi&sons.The French have done it a dozen of times in their African area of influence.And I suppose SAS still has some maps left since 1942:biggrin: .Afterall they used maps from the 30's to chase Iraqi Scuds.

T_igger_cs_30
12 Mar 11,, 18:04
RSM,if the European powers involved in this mess can't be relied to send a few SF teams and 2 cargo planes with weapons than they deserve to negociate with the likes of Gaddafi&sons.The French have done it a dozen of times in their African area of influence.And I suppose SAS still has some maps left since 1942:biggrin: .Afterall they used maps from the 30's to chase Iraqi Scuds.

I could not agree more , I have already stated Europe should deal with this and the UK needs to be at the front.

Double Edge
12 Mar 11,, 18:13
RSM,if the European powers involved in this mess can't be relied to send a few SF teams and 2 cargo planes with weapons than they deserve to negociate with the likes of Gaddafi&sons.
They are going to be in an awkward position given the strong statements made a week back especially Cameron & Sarkozy.

Russia, China, US futures looking better than the EU.

Mihais
12 Mar 11,, 18:44
off-topic,but the sooner that crap goes away,the better for European nations.Also said Euro nations need a good beating to get their senses back.I sense ample opportunities in the near future and Libya may be the first one.

T_igger_cs_30
12 Mar 11,, 18:58
They are going to be in an awkward position given the strong statements made a week back especially Cameron & Sarkozy.

And I pointed this out over a week ago.

Double Edge
12 Mar 11,, 21:00
There's still time to act, not sure how long that window is though....a week more ? :frown:

A week ago we were talking about that SAS team etc. not been any positive movement since.

citanon
12 Mar 11,, 21:02
I could not agree more , I have already stated Europe should deal with this and the UK needs to be at the front.

A prickly problem here is that the bastard still has some amount of mustard gas. Those will have to be dealt with before he gets truly desperate.

British forces ready to seize Libyan mustard gas weapons (http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/British+forces+ready+seize+Libyan+mustard+weapons/4367649/story.html)


British forces ready to seize Libyan mustard gas weapons


By Robert Winnett and Holly Watt, Daily Telegraph March 1, 2011



* Story
* Photos ( 1 )


A man walks inside the burnt main prison of Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi's forces in Benghazi February 28, 2011. British forces are expected to uncover caches of chemical weapons stored in the collapsing North African country.

A man walks inside the burnt main prison of Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi's forces in Benghazi February 28, 2011. British forces are expected to uncover caches of chemical weapons stored in the collapsing North African country.
Photograph by: Suhaib Salem, Reuters

British special forces are poised to seize caches of mustard gas and other potential chemical weapons being stored by Col. Moammar Gadhafi's regime in the Libyan desert.

American sources have disclosed that the SAS is likely to be called upon to secure up to 10 tons of mustard gas and sarin that is believed to be stockpiled at three separate locations.

Special forces are thought to have been in Libya for about 10 days and have already played a leading role in rescuing hundreds of oil workers.Tuesday, David Cameron continued to increase the pressure on Gadhafi by warning that Britain should negotiate with opposition groups. He said that, if the Libyan regime started "murdering" its people with aircraft, plans should be in place to "do something to stop that".

It emerged that Typhoon fighter jets may be moved to an RAF base in Cyprus in the latest sign that military action could be necessary.

However, a growing coalition of foreign governments publicly opposed the use of military force. The American government also played down the prospect, despite sources disclosing earlier this week that warships and planes were being moved into position around Libya.

There is growing international concern over the stockpiles of chemical weapons that Gadhafi is thought to still retain, amid fears they could be used to attack protesters or be seized by terrorists.

British sources said they were yet to receive a specific U.S. request for SAS involvement in any operation to secure the weapons sites, but officials said plans were being drawn up for "every eventuality".

Sir John Major, the former prime minister, said that if Gadhafi used the chemical weapons it could trigger a military conflict.

Asked if the use of chemical weapons would make a difference to the military's approach, Sir John said: "I think it would, and I think it should. I recall going out to visit the troops just before the first Gulf War. From the youngest to the most senior commander the one area that was of great concern was that Saddam Hussein would use chemical weapons.

"He didn't. I think he understood that the world would descend upon him in the most terrible way if he did. And I very much hope that the same point will apply to Colonel Gadhafi in Libya."

Cameron used a press conference to speak out against the regime. "It's right for us to plan and look at plans for a no-fly zone," he said. "We should also be making contact, getting a greater understanding of the opposition forces that are now in Benghazi and in control of quite a lot of the country. I don't think we should go beyond that for now."

Saif Gadhafi, the dictator's son and heir apparent, attacked Cameron and accused him of "thinking greedily about oil". He said the Prime Minister "wants to be a hero" and denied that Libyans were interested in regime change.

Tuesday, any Britons still in Libya were urged to make their way to Benghazi to board a Royal Navy destroyer on its way to the port.

European Union leaders are to meet for an extraordinary summit on March 11 to seek a response to the crisis, and to the turmoil in the wider Arab world.

?Hillary Clinton, U.S. Secretary of State, said Tuesday night that the Obama administration may seek the prosecution of Gadhafi for the 1988 Lockerbie bombing.

The announcement follows claims last week by Gadhafi's former justice minister that the Libyan leader had personally authorized the bombing of Pan Am flight 103, which killed 270 people.
© Copyright (c) The Daily Telegraph



Read more: British forces ready to seize Libyan mustard gas weapons (http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/British+forces+ready+seize+Libyan+mustard+weapons/4367649/story.html#ixzz1GPwRAJAe)

dave lukins
12 Mar 11,, 22:52
I could not agree more , I have already stated Europe should deal with this and the UK needs to be at the front.

As long as we keep the SBS under lock and key. Leave it to the real pros.. the SAS ;)

Mihais
12 Mar 11,, 23:27
Sir,usual service rivalry aside,it looks that others higher in the chain managed to cause the fiasco last week.Now,I don't know if the team could have refused the mission given the parameters they had to consider.

Double Edge
12 Mar 11,, 23:35
The council has its own webpage now

The Interim Transitional National Council (http://ntclibya.org/english/)

T_igger_cs_30
12 Mar 11,, 23:37
As long as we keep the SBS under lock and key. Leave it to the real pros.. the SAS ;)

Bit like fish out of water :eek:


Sir,usual service rivalry aside,it looks that others higher in the chain managed to cause the fiasco last week.Now,I don't know if the team could have refused the mission given the parameters they had to consider.

Just that Mihais mate, nothing more, and the classic black humour that all us who have served know we could not do without :biggrin:........ I still have my reservations about that whole fiasco, what really went on.

T_igger_cs_30
12 Mar 11,, 23:38
The council has its own webpage now

The Interim Transitional National Council (http://ntclibya.org/english/)

Good job DE................

Double Edge
13 Mar 11,, 00:03
I still have my reservations about that whole fiasco, what really went on.
How's this grab ya as an alternative version to the cover story we got fed.

The boys insert discretely and successfuly, try to make contact with the rebels, meet with hostile contact instead, defend themsleves, leg it back to the RVP and take off in the helo. They never spent 2 days in custody.

The ambassador has some 'splaining to do to the rebels.

Does not explain the intercept played on libyan state tv though.

What can i say, its a work in progress :biggrin:

T_igger_cs_30
13 Mar 11,, 00:06
How's this grab ya as an alternative version to the cover story we got fed.

The boys insert discretely and successfuly, try to make contact with the rebels, meet with hostile contact instead, defend themsleves, leg it back to the RVP and take off in the helo. They never spent 2 days in custody.

The ambassador has some 'splaining to do to the rebels.

Does not explain the intercept played on libyan state tv though.

What can i say, its a work in progress :biggrin:

:biggrin: Good effort DE.......speculation ..along with assumption is the mother of all F*ck ups:biggrin:

T_igger_cs_30
13 Mar 11,, 07:28
The Times -
SAS bunglers had secret computer codes in pockets

Rebels accessed secure 'for UK eyes only' MoD computers using codes on scraps of paper from the bungled MI6/SAS operation in Libya

The SAS is facing a serious security breach after Libyan rebels discovered that soldiers captured during a bungled operation were carrying on scraps of paper the usernames and passwords for secret computer systems.

Sources in Benghazi, the largest Libyan city in opposition control, told The Sunday Times last week that they had seized a store of sensitive communications equipment when the MI6 and SAS mission went wrong nine days ago.

The rebels found personal details needed to access the computers on notes among their captives’ belongings.

“It is so inept, it is unbelievable,” one expert said.

The rebels tapped the usernames and passwords into the confiscated computers. One system opened with a screen that read “Sunata deployed”. It appeared to be a program for accessing a secure military network. A rebel source said: “It takes you right into the MoD system in the UK.”

Asked whether the rebels had accessed the system, he said: “Yes we did. We were, of course, curious. But as a courtesy to the UK we will not divulge all, but just enough to let them know that we know. It’s a good thing this hasn’t fallen into enemy hands.”

The rebels said much of the equipment was marked “Secret: UK eyes only.” One rebel with military experience said: “Some of the communications systems they carried is the stuff that you only see in the movies.” He described it as “espionage equipment”.

The haul included five laptop computers, six GPS trackers, two “Bgans” — said to be “broadband global area network” systems, eight satellite telephones and shortwave radios, plus lithium batteries and solar panels for recharging.

The Libyans seized maps marking “Suluk” as a landing location in red and “Gaminis” as an extraction point in yellow; passports, including three from different countries in the name of one man; and a fistful of credit cards, mostly from Barclays.

Components for explosives, “portable welding machines”, office equipment and five guns were also taken.

A source confirmed that two sophisticated communications systems had been seized. The source claimed this did not leave MI6’s systems vulnerable, and that the captured MI6 computer was “clean”. The Ministry of Defence denied that its main network could be accessed.

However, senior MoD sources could give no assurances about systems used by the directorate of special forces. The captured SAS computers are understood to hold confidential documents.

The Sunday Times has also learnt that the MI6/SAS group was released only after the Foreign Office faxed a plaintive letter to the rebels, requesting “all the usual courtesies” for the captured “diplomatic mission”.

Last week one US newspaper mocked the debacle as “Britain’s excellent Libyan adventure”. William Hague, the foreign secretary, remains under fire and David Cameron is said to be privately furious. The National Security Council is to report on what went wrong.

The mission was mounted as ministers struggled to formulate a clear policy on the uprising in Libya. Amid talk of imposing a no-fly zone, they wanted to forge links with the emerging leaders of the opposition to Muammar Gadaffi, the Libyan dictator.

Hague was in telephone contact with Abdul Fattah Younis, a former Libyan minister who has defected from Gadaffi’s regime. However, the regime still has control of telecommunications and can intercept calls and cut off networks.

A plan was drawn up to send an MI6 mission into Libya, with Sir John Sawers, the head of the service, and Hague being fully briefed on the details. Hague is said to show an especially close interest in MI6’s work and to have approved dozens of secret missions. He says he alerted Libyan rebels to the plans.

The mission’s objective, according to government sources, was to establish secure communications with the rebels and scout out a base in Benghazi for British diplomats. At its core was a young MI6 officer who is a specialist in the Middle East. A Cambridge graduate, he joined the Secret Intelligence Service, as MI6 is known, in 2001, underwent language training in Cairo and served in Iraq.

The officer and two other men were accompanied by five SAS soldiers. Judging by airline boarding passes also seized among their belongings, at least one of the team began the mission by travelling from Cairo to Frankfurt and on to Milan.

The group is believed to have flown from Malta to Crete, where the US has a substantial airbase at Souda Bay, probably to disguise their intentions. Two special forces Chinook helicopters, equipped with sophisticated navigation systems for low-level night flying, then set off for Libya, probably refuelling en route on the Royal Fleet Auxiliary vessel Argus.

One Chinook carried the team, dressed in black civilian clothes and armed with what were described as five small machineguns; the other was “in the background, hanging around”, in case of trouble.

Why was such a clandestine route chosen? Why did the men not simply cross the border from Egypt or sail into Benghazi? Critics suggest MI6 favours the cloak-and-dagger approach. And the SAS, according to Patrick Mercer, the Conservative MP who served as a colonel in the army, has developed a tendency when planning operations “not to forget the film rights”.

On the other hand, a government source said the route had been chosen because the team was carrying sensitive communication equipment that it could not risk being discovered at any border crossings.

Either way, at 3am on Friday March 4, a Chinook landed near Suluk, a town about 30 miles south of Benghazi. Its target was a farmhouse where Thomas Smith, an honorary consul from the British embassy in Tripoli, had reportedly been working as an administrator for five months.

The area is rural and locals became suspicious when Smith was seen leaving the farm compound at an unusual hour. Helicopters were heard and two cars arrived filled with men in dark clothing who began unloading equipment. Farmers feared the interlopers were mercenaries hired by Gadaffi. They let the men enter the farmhouse, then surrounded it with machineguns.

The members of MI6/SAS team faced a dilemma. If they fought or summoned help from a rescue team based in Malta, it would cause uproar. Their aim was to generate good relations, not bloodshed.

Rebel sources say some shots were fired. British sources say the team was simply roughed up, with one man suffering a minor injury. What is clear is that soon after landing, the entire team was captive and bound with plastic cuffs.

Ahmed Albira, a farm manager, telephoned rebel headquarters in Benghazi, which told him to keep the men under guard until forces arrived and took them to the city.

“Of course they were roughed up at the beginning,” said a rebel source, who claimed the men initially refused to identify themselves. “For all we know, they were mercenaries hired by Gadaffi.”


The rebels found personal details needed to access the computers on notes among their captives’ belongings.

:rolleyes: Torture it out of them I can believe.


“It is so inept, it is unbelievable,” one expert said.

Based on whats written if true, I can only agree, inept is not the word I would use. :biggrin:


Asked whether the rebels had accessed the system, he said: “Yes we did. We were, of course, curious.

:rolleyes:


But as a courtesy to the UK we will not divulge all, but just enough to let them know that we know. It’s a good thing this hasn’t fallen into enemy hands.”

:biggrin: Hilarious.


One rebel with military experience said: “Some of the communications systems they carried is the stuff that you only see in the movies.” He described it as “espionage equipment”.

ooooooooooooh ;)


Rebel sources say some shots were fired. British sources say the team was simply roughed up, with one man suffering a minor injury. What is clear is that soon after landing, the entire team was captive and bound with plastic cuffs.


Ahmed Albira, a farm manager, telephoned rebel headquarters in Benghazi, which told him to keep the men under guard until forces arrived and took them to the city.

I fell down laughing here, a f*ecking farmer :biggrin:


“Of course they were roughed up at the beginning,” said a rebel source, who claimed the men initially refused to identify themselves. “For all we know, they were mercenaries hired by Gadaffi.”

And when I got up and read this .....I fell down laughing again........the Monty Python team wrote this !!!!!!! :biggrin:

Double Edge
13 Mar 11,, 09:39
:biggrin: speculation ..along with assumption is the mother of all F*ck ups:biggrin:
I'll take that as your summation, in a line, of this whole affair.

Good article btw, does not leave much to the imagination.

On the bright side, these rebels uncoordinated as they might seem are alert enough, brave enough, determined enough to have successfully captured a section of the SAS. Now, i don't think Benghazi is going to fall within a week :)

Gaddafi will not be able to take Benghazi with just aircraft & artillery. He's going to have go street by street, house to house. There's still a lot of fight left in these people.

Mihais
13 Mar 11,, 10:11
The story seems to be a recycled version of the ''farmer forces down Apache with a rifle'' of Iraqi fame.First of all,the sources are in Benghazi.For all I know,the vaunted media is nothing but the voice for the dreams of whatever Libyan hero wannabee.

I call BS on that one until better intel becomes available.

cyppok
13 Mar 11,, 11:28
I'll take that as your summation, in a line, of this whole affair.

Good article btw, does not leave much to the imagination.

On the bright side, these rebels uncoordinated as they might seem are alert enough, brave enough, determined enough to have successfully captured a section of the SAS. Now, i don't think Benghazi is going to fall within a week :)

Gaddafi will not be able to take Benghazi with just aircraft & artillery. He's going to have go street by street, house to house. There's still a lot of fight left in these people.

I think your under the impression that they will go in and try to forcefully take it. My feeling is what they will do is set up a perimeter and pound it while making raids in and out until the city capitulates. Its similar to old style castle warfare. More focus on starving out the defenders in the castle(city) than taking it by force.

tankie
13 Mar 11,, 11:38
After reading these posts and from what the media are saying , there's only one word to describe this mission , EMBARRASSING :redface::redface::redface:


Hey Wayne ,,,,, if your in trouble ,,and you need help , and if you can find them , then maybe you can hire , the ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,h,A,gue Team :rolleyes:

T_igger_cs_30
13 Mar 11,, 12:32
I'll take that as your summation, in a line, of this whole affair.

Good article btw, does not leave much to the imagination.

On the bright side, these rebels uncoordinated as they might seem are alert enough, brave enough, determined enough to have successfully captured a section of the SAS. Now, i don't think Benghazi is going to fall within a week :)

Gaddafi will not be able to take Benghazi with just aircraft & artillery. He's going to have go street by street, house to house. There's still a lot of fight left in these people.

Ya right DE, :biggrin:


The story seems to be a recycled version of the ''farmer forces down Apache with a rifle'' of Iraqi fame.First of all,the sources are in Benghazi.For all I know,the vaunted media is nothing but the voice for the dreams of whatever Libyan hero wannabee.

I call BS on that one until better intel becomes available.

I agree Mihais, this happened or something happened but happened like this, nah BS to it all, its a cover story for something IMO. :biggrin:


After reading these posts and from what the media are saying , there's only one word to describe this mission , EMBARRASSING :redface::redface::redface:

Hey Wayne ,,,,, if your in trouble ,,and you need help , and if you can find them , then maybe you can hire , the ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,h,A,gue Team :rolleyes:

:biggrin::Dancing-Banana::biggrin:

dave lukins
13 Mar 11,, 12:39
After reading these posts and from what the media are saying , there's only one word to describe this mission , EMBARRASSING :redface::redface::redface:


Hey Wayne ,,,,, if your in trouble ,,and you need help , and if you can find them , then maybe you can hire , the ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,h,A,gue Team :rolleyes:

Groan...puts lunch back in the oven as I've lost me appitite.:)

tankie
13 Mar 11,, 13:11
Groan...puts lunch back in the oven as I've lost me appitite.:)


:tongue:

T_igger_cs_30
13 Mar 11,, 13:24
'Bracing for massacre'
"We are bracing for a massacre," Mohamad Ahmed, a rebel fighter in the city, said. "We know it will happen and Misrata will be like Zawiya, but we believe in God. We do not have the capabilities to fight Gaddafi and his forces. They have tanks and heavy weapons and we have our belief and trust in God.

Gaddafi's army will kill half a million, warn rebels - News - Mail & Guardian Online (http://mg.co.za/article/2011-03-13-gaddafis-army-will-kill-half-a-million-warn-rebels)

Double Edge
13 Mar 11,, 22:55
Hey Wayne ,,,,, if your in trouble ,,and you need help , and if you can find them , then maybe you can hire , the ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,h,A,gue Team :rolleyes:
Haha, its been so looooong since i watched that :biggrin:

dave lukins
14 Mar 11,, 00:23
'Bracing for massacre'
"We are bracing for a massacre," Mohamad Ahmed, a rebel fighter in the city, said. "We know it will happen and Misrata will be like Zawiya, but we believe in God. We do not have the capabilities to fight Gaddafi's and his forces. They have tanks and heavy weapons and we have our belief and trust in God.

Gaddafi's army will kill half a million, warn rebels - News - Mail & Guardian Online (http://mg.co.za/article/2011-03-13-gaddafis-army-will-kill-half-a-million-warn-rebels)

Sadly since the earthquake off Japan, Libya has disappeared off our screens and very few updates have been getting through. Gaddafi's forces will no doubt take full advantage of this and with the world looking at the disaster elsewhere it will not be beyond his ethics to kill half a million of his own people.

dave lukins
14 Mar 11,, 00:26
Haha, its been so looooong since i watched that :biggrin:

Mr T is still on British screens...as an enforcer for a chocolate bar ad' :cool:

tankie
14 Mar 11,, 01:04
Mr T is still on British screens...as an enforcer for a chocolate bar ad' :cool:

Yea , snickers , but WTF did they use a Russian panzer for in the addy ??

dave lukins
14 Mar 11,, 01:12
Yea , snickers , but WTF did they use a Russian panzer for in the addy ??

Because we haven't got any left. Cameron has flogged them to the lowest bidder:frown:

kato
14 Mar 11,, 01:29
Libya has disappeared off our screens and very few updates have been getting through.
Not over here.

Latest article by German paper Zeit, 8 hours ago:

- loyalist troops took Brega after heavy combat
- rebels withdrawing about 80 km east to Adjabija, last base before Benghazi (!)
- loyalist troops also took smaller villages near Brega
- massed artillery and air strikes used in that area
- there is still combat going on around Misrata, still under rebel control (according to DW)
- Khamis brigade in combat there (according to Al Arabiya)
- some loyalist units have refused orders near Misrata (according to Al Arabiya)

There are supposedly up to several thousand loyalist people in Benghazi, some of which have committed several partisan/terrorist attacks in the past week, among them:
- bombing an ammo depot near the airport
- bombing a hotel with Western journalists near the port area
- shooting an Al Jazeera cameraman (dead) and reporter (injured)

Fleet Movements (Marineforum, Mar 11/12):

- Royal Navy possibly rerouting "Task Force Cougar" as "Response Force Task Group" - includes LPH Ocean, LPD Albion and FFG Sutherland
- EU and NATO will monitor, but not enforce embargo (SNMG1 and SNMCMG1 likely to be used on NATO side)
- French DDG Georges Leygues enroute to theater after repairs in Toulon (escort for Mistral)
- Italian DDG Andrea Doria (a Horizon!) is stationed off Libyan coast and performing fleet AAW surveillance
- US DDG Mason and SSN Providence (from Enterprise ESG) were moved through Suez on Friday

cyppok
14 Mar 11,, 05:44
Not over here.

Latest article by German paper Zeit, 8 hours ago:

- loyalist troops took Brega after heavy combat
- rebels withdrawing about 80 km east to Adjabija, last base before Benghazi (!)
- loyalist troops also took smaller villages near Brega
- massed artillery and air strikes used in that area
- there is still combat going on around Misrata, still under rebel control (according to DW)
- Khamis brigade in combat there (according to Al Arabiya)
- some loyalist units have refused orders near Misrata (according to Al Arabiya)

There are supposedly up to several thousand loyalist people in Benghazi, some of which have committed several partisan/terrorist attacks in the past week, among them:
- bombing an ammo depot near the airport
- bombing a hotel with Western journalists near the port area
- shooting an Al Jazeera cameraman (dead) and reporter (injured)

Fleet Movements (Marineforum, Mar 11/12):

- Royal Navy possibly rerouting "Task Force Cougar" as "Response Force Task Group" - includes LPH Ocean, LPD Albion and FFG Sutherland
- EU and NATO will monitor, but not enforce embargo (SNMG1 and SNMCMG1 likely to be used on NATO side)
- French DDG Georges Leygues enroute to theater after repairs in Toulon (escort for Mistral)
- Italian DDG Andrea Doria (a Horizon!) is stationed off Libyan coast and performing fleet AAW surveillance
- US DDG Mason and SSN Providence (from Enterprise ESG) were moved through Suez on Friday

thanks for updates kato. I think if oil flow resumes the prices get depressed significantly globally. My take on the issue is that Rebels may not be better than Qadaffi long term, I speak simply based on my opinion. My thoughts revolves around many uprisings starting from the gatherings in the mosques and the overall tribal nature of the movement (2/3 largest tribes basically Warfalla and Misruta against the the rest). My view is more along the lines of bedoins/tauregs/berbers/and small arab tribes against two/three major urban arab tribes.

Rebels repel Gaddafi assault on Libya oil port - International Business Times (http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/121875/20110311/rebels-repel-gaddafi-assault-on-libya-oil-port.htm)

Double Edge
14 Mar 11,, 08:58
My take on the issue is that Rebels may not be better than Qadaffi long term, I speak simply based on my opinion. My thoughts revolves around many uprisings starting from the gatherings in the mosques and the overall tribal nature of the movement (2/3 largest tribes basically Warfalla and Misruta against the the rest). My view is more along the lines of bedoins/tauregs/berbers/and small arab tribes against two/three major urban arab tribes.
This implies necessarily, that the rebels have a gaddafi among them ?


I think your under the impression that they will go in and try to forcefully take it. My feeling is what they will do is set up a perimeter and pound it while making raids in and out until the city capitulates. Its similar to old style castle warfare. More focus on starving out the defenders in the castle(city) than taking it by force.
Sure, but this castle also has access to a long coastline.

How to stop the supplies coming in ?

Double Edge
14 Mar 11,, 09:09
Ya right DE, :biggrin:
Right, but how to explain this ?

Video: British ambassador broadcast on Libyan state TV - Telegraph (http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8365590/British-ambassador-broadcast-on-Libyan-state-TV.html&sa=U&ei=b8t9Ta3YO4mGrAfgheGIAw&ved=0CBMQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNGUhAhu4feb-ZQVfEq3bKz1yPBUDA)

kato
14 Mar 11,, 10:30
Sure, but this castle also has access to a long coastline.
How to stop the supplies coming in ?
Libya still has a loyalist navy, and it's been pretty active in support of operations lately (shelling, transport).

T_igger_cs_30
14 Mar 11,, 11:16
Right, but how to explain this ?

Video: British ambassador broadcast on Libyan state TV - Telegraph (http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8365590/British-ambassador-broadcast-on-Libyan-state-TV.html&sa=U&ei=b8t9Ta3YO4mGrAfgheGIAw&ved=0CBMQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNGUhAhu4feb-ZQVfEq3bKz1yPBUDA)

I really cannot, but experience has taught me that diplomacy works in very strange ways DE in the short term. The long term always gives us a clearer picture of past events.
And just maybe this might just have something to do with it;:biggrin:


The telephone conversation was intercepted by Col Gaddafi's forces and broadcast on Libyan state television on Sunday night. :biggrin:

Never take anything at face value when it comes to dirty tactics. (AKA Diplomacy)

T_igger_cs_30
14 Mar 11,, 11:47
The Times - March 14 2011 ( Leading Article)

By force of arms and brutality, Gaddafi is regaining control. Diplomatic pressure and protection of the rebel forces are urgent

While the world’s horrified attention is drawn to one humanitarian disaster, another is intensifying. The difference is that the plight of Japan’s people is due to the impersonal forces of nature, whereas catastrophe in Libya is being wreaked as a matter of policy. Colonel Muammar Gaddafi is driving back the rebels.

Against his depredations, Western policy has foundered. There needs to be utmost clarity towards Colonel Gaddafi’s criminal regime. David Cameron should act on his instincts and rally support to ratchet up diplomatic pressure. The alternative is stark. As Sir Malcolm Rifkind, the former Foreign Secretary, argues in The Times today, victory for Colonel Gaddafi would be a disaster not only for Libya’s people but for the entire Arab world (see page 24). The message to autocrats would be clear: the effective response to popular pressure is murderous repression, which the international community will allow to succeed.

Amid international divisions over the right response to Colonel Gaddafi, his forces have consolidated control. Rebels have lost the oil port of Ras Lanuf and are in retreat from Brega. A regime of sufficient brutality, facing an insurgency lacking weapons and military experience, has an unassailable advantage. Unless that is neutralised, the rebels will lose. The costs for them will be terrible. So will the threat to the Western democracies.

Libya’s agonies are not an internal issue that must be allowed to come to a natural conclusion, nor in any reputable sense are Libyans Colonel Gaddafi’s “own” people. This is a war of aggression fought by an illegitimate ruler against a captive people. If they are defeated, then the mercurial Colonel Gaddafi will turn on others. This is not merely a prediction but a description.

Colonel Gaddafi is by history and impulse a supporter of terrorism. The bombing of a Berlin nightclub in 1986 and of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie in 1988 are only the most notorious of his crimes. Even after his chastened diplomatic opening to the West in 2003, Colonel Gaddafi sponsored an assassination plot against Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia. Violence employed casually but targeted deliberately is his method, within Libya’s borders and without.

There is no warrant in international law or self-defence to allow him to persist. There is a widely accepted principle of humanitarian intervention to stop the commission of crimes against humanity. It was justified after the Gulf War in 1991 to protect Iraq’s Kurds and in Nato’s actions in Kosovo in 1999 to prevent genocide by Serb forces. Mr Cameron should invoke it now against Colonel Gaddafi, and make clear the judicial consequences that will follow for troops that commit war crimes. He should also stress the danger that the unrestrained despot poses to the international order. He should consult, certainly, with Britain’s allies; but he cannot take no for an answer.

Unfortunately the most decisive statement by the Obama Administration on the crisis is scorn for a proposed no-fly zone. It is one thing to argue about the logistics of stopping Colonel Gaddafi’s warplanes from bombing rebel forces (and Britain would have greater sway in those discussions if the aircraft carrier HMS Ark Royal had not been lately decommissioned). But meanwhile Libya’s rebels beg and the Arab League urges the UN Security Council to impose a no-fly zone.

France and Britain support that call. The international coalition that President Obama appears to be awaiting is already there in outline. It needs mobilising. Mr Cameron should urgently reinforce that message in Washington. Economic sanctions and the freezing of assets are symbolically valuable but they will not depose a despot who has supped full with horrors. The rebels against him risk life and liberty. Their cause demands not just sympathy but active solidarity from the West.


As Sir Malcolm Rifkind, the former Foreign Secretary, argues in The Times today, victory for Colonel Gaddafi would be a disaster not only for Libya’s people but for the entire Arab world (See below)

Arm the rebels. Gaddafi must not prevail
Sir Malcolm Rifkind is Conservative MP for Kensington and Chelsea and was Foreign Secretary from 1995-97

Supplying weapons would be legal and fair. We must not repeat the mistakes of Bosnia

The Libyan people could face total defeat in the next few weeks. The wheel of fortune is turning against them. In the past ten days Colonel Gaddafi has consolidated his position in Tripoli, cowing its inhabitants. He has driven the insurgents out of towns and enclaves near the capital and has now apparently recaptured the strategic oil town of Brega in the centre of the country.

His next aim will be to penetrate eastwards towards Benghazi, where the Revolutionary Council has its headquarters. Recapturing the east will not be easy for Gaddafi. His lines of communication will be stretched and Benghazi and the tribes of the east have always been hostile to his rule. But he has serious strengths denied to his enemies. Unlike the insurgents who have great courage but are lightly armed, he has a monopoly of air power and a massive preponderance of tanks and heavy artillery. The oil fields are mainly in the liberated east of the country, but the Government controls more than 80 per cent of the country’s refinery capacity. He has also brought in hundreds, and perhaps thousands, of mercenaries from neighbouring countries.

The reaction of the international community to events in Libya has, so far, been uncertain, disunited and at best tactical rather than strategic. To be truthful, until a few days ago this did not matter all that much. It seemed certain that Gaddafi was finished, his regime was crumbling and the only uncertainty was whether he would flee or be found cornered in a Tripoli bunker. That is no longer the case and the West and the international community must wake up to the enormous consequences if he is able to cling on to power and regain control of the whole country.

The consequences would not just be devastating for the Libyans but for the Arab world and the Middle East as a whole. The message would be clear to the despots in Syria, Iran and elsewhere. Reject reform, respond with brutality and you will retain power. Instead of the world welcoming an Arab Spring it would be like Budapest in 1956 and Prague in 1968, where freedom was postponed for a generation; or Tiananmen Square in 1989 — the Chinese are still waiting.

Furthermore, freedom in Egypt and Tunisia is still too fragile to be assured if the Middle East otherwise remains a region of dictators and despots. So the stakes have become very high.

What is needed is a clear and deliverable international strategy that would change the balance of power in Libya between Gaddafi and the insurgents without foreign troops invading the country. There should be four components to such a strategy.

First and most important should be an open and urgent supply of the necessary weapons to the insurgents so that they can fight Gaddafi on equal terms. The UN has imposed an arms embargo and some have suggested that this makes illegal any supply of weapons to either side in Libya. The UN Resolution, however, refers to a ban on arms supply to the Libyan “Jamahiriya”, which is Gaddafi’s invented name for the state he controls. It need not prevent supplies to those trying to bring him down.

Otherwise, we will repeat the mistake of the Bosnian war — when the UN embargo had much less impact on the Bosnian Serbs who were, already, heavily armed. Having been Defence Secretary at that time I have, in retrospect, felt that that was the most serious mistake made by the UN.

Gaddafi could hardly make successful propaganda from such arms supplies to the insurgents. He himself has internationalised the conflict by importing mercenaries from the surrounding countries of North Africa and the Middle East.

The second part of the strategy should be massive American and international pressure on the governments of Chad, Algeria and possibly Syria to stop their nationals becoming Gaddafi’s mercenaries.

They could not have been taken to Tripoli without permission of their governments, which should be warned that they face the fiercest sanctions unless they desist.

The third component of the strategy should be the no-fly zone. I had been unconvinced of the need, on humanitarian grounds, for such a step while the insurgents were winning. There is limited evidence of Gaddafi deliberately targeting civilians. Most of the air strikes have been aimed at arms dumps and insurgent units. The need for the no-fly zone is now unashamedly military. It will be essential in ensuring that Gaddafi cannot reconquer the east of Libya and may, in due course, help to defeat him in Libya as a whole.

But it still cannot happen if it is to be by the United States, Britain and France alone. That would be too much like Iraq, whereas the proper precedent should be the Gulf War in 1990, when Egypt, Turkey and Saudi Arabia were part of the coalition that liberated Kuwait. The support of the Arab League for a no-fly zone (with only Syria and Algeria opposing), as well as the Gulf Co-operation Council, is a very big step in the right direction.

Fourth, it must be made even clearer than it has been that Gaddafi’s remaining generals and ministers face ending up in the International Criminal Court at The Hague unless they break with the Colonel. It is well known that that risk has already influenced many who have defected. More can be done.

There is little doubt that the vast majority of Libyans want Gaddafi gone. Most of the Arab world despises him. The future of the whole Middle East will be distorted and damaged if he remains in power.

This is not like Iraq ,where a military invasion by the US and the UK should never have happened and did enormous damage. What has to be addressed, and agreed urgently, is the need to help and enable the Libyan people to liberate themselves. That is a worthy cause, a sensible one and a cause consistent with both our ideals and our interests.

dave lukins
14 Mar 11,, 12:21
"Britain would have greater sway in those discussions if the aircraft carrier HMS Ark Royal had not been lately decommissioned"

That'll teach Cameron not to sell off the family silver before the family is dead. It was a nap that this would happen whilst the middle east is in turmoil. His advisor's wouldn't get employed at Mothecare. :)

T_igger_cs_30
14 Mar 11,, 12:41
Louis Susman: 'America will not move unilaterally. We are clear that Gaddafi has to go’

By Con Coughlin 7:34AM GMT 14 Mar 2011

In his first major newspaper interview since taking up his post 19 months ago, Louis Susman, the American ambassador to London, explains how the strong understanding between David Cameron and Barack Obama will be a source of strength in solving the Libyan crisis

http://http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8380006/Louis-Susman-America-will-not-move-unilaterally.-We-are-clear-that-Gaddafi-has-to-go.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8380006/Louis-Susman-America-will-not-move-unilaterally.-We-are-clear-that-Gaddafi-has-to-go.html)

.................................................. .....................................

Leading article: Meanwhile in Libya

The Independant - Monday, 14 March 2011

Leading article: Meanwhile in Libya... - Leading Articles, Opinion - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/leading-articles/leading-article-meanwhile-in-libya-2241006.html)

.................................................. ....................................

dave lukins
14 Mar 11,, 12:54
"As we watch the Japanese mobilising their massive rescue efforts, and international help begins to arrive, it should not be forgotten that, many thousands of miles away, a furious leader is taking vengeance on whole towns that dared to cross him".



I mentioned something on these lines before. It is too easy to be deflected to other disasters and at the moment the Japanese earthquake and its aftermath has taken priority.

Double Edge
15 Mar 11,, 15:44
I really cannot, but experience has taught me that diplomacy works in very strange ways DE in the short term. The long term always gives us a clearer picture of past events.
ok


And just maybe this might just have something to do with it;:biggrin:
I did not follow what you are implying here wrt to the intercept :confused:

If Gaddafi can show foreign intervention of any kind then it plays to his advantage.

There is no proof that this conversation actually happened when it did is there or even that it really is the british ambassador in libya speaking. Making a voice recording like that to imply such isn't that difficult.

Thing is I don't recall the rebels making any public statements to confirm the idea that the recording could be fake.


Never take anything at face value when it comes to dirty tactics. (AKA Diplomacy)
Are you saying that the intercept had nothing to do with the 'diplomatic team' ?

And that downing street just played along.

T_igger_cs_30
15 Mar 11,, 17:04
Are you saying that the intercept had nothing to do with the 'diplomatic team' ?

And that downing street just played along.

I am saying that I have never seen a cluster involving 22 or SBS like this ever...........and I think I have been consistent all through this ............ Something is not right with the whole fiasco.

tankie
15 Mar 11,, 17:11
I am saying that I have never seen a cluster involving 22 or SBS like this ever...........and I think I have been consistent all through this ............ Something is not right with the whole fiasco.

Like i said in the opening salvo/gambit , its not like these boys to screw up , however Hague has taken flak for ordering it ??? I agree Wayne , something deffo stinks like my old keep net and wellies ??

tankie
15 Mar 11,, 17:13
"Britain would have greater sway in those discussions if the aircraft carrier HMS Ark Royal had not been lately decommissioned"

That'll teach Cameron not to sell off the family silver before the family is dead. It was a nap that this would happen whilst the middle east is in turmoil. His advisor's wouldn't get employed at Mothecare. :)

Ark Royal only lowered her flags a week ago m8 , shouldnt take long to fly em again and grab the crew back from R n R

T_igger_cs_30
15 Mar 11,, 17:17
Ark Royal only lowered her flags a week ago m8 , shouldnt take long to fly em again and grab the crew back from R n R


Oh how I wish Eric , how I wish ....................

tankie
15 Mar 11,, 17:26
Oh how I wish Eric , how I wish ....................

Same here , the tossers are talking about scrap value , bear in mind we are still waiting for the next 2 to be built ,,,why not sell her or give her away to one of our allies , or lend her ( is that option viable ) ?? remember P.P.P.P.P.P.P ,


DAVES RIGHT ,,



THE GOVT IN POWER COULD'NT GET JOBS AS BOUNCERS IN KIDS CLOTHES R US :mad:

Stitch
15 Mar 11,, 18:41
I'm still thinking something along the lines of Operation El Dorado Canyon is in order here . . . .

rj1
15 Mar 11,, 19:49
This is not like Iraq ,where a military invasion by the US and the UK should never have happened and did enormous damage. What has to be addressed, and agreed urgently, is the need to help and enable the Libyan people to liberate themselves. That is a worthy cause, a sensible one and a cause consistent with both our ideals and our interests.

Rifkind's argument completely fails here. I don't see how a person based on the arguments that were made by most people anti-Iraq War at the time of it occurring can say intervention in Iraq was wrong and illegal (the very oft-cited "the UN didn't sanction it, therefore it is illegal" argument) and now these same people say intervention in Libya is just in spite of the fact the UN likely isn't going to sanction it. It's not like Saddam was a nicer guy than Gaddafi is and him and his regime certainly had its humanitarian atrocities as well, but on the "ideals" front it's also not like countries such as France go around the world and overthrow the people that commit these things or are brutal dictators, the people that's done that in recent years was a U.S.-led coalition (with Britain highly involved in both) and it got us called warmongers and supposedly "the world hates us" and Brits themselves have a sour taste in their mouths for Tony Blair. So what makes this right then in contrast based on Rifkind's own logic on Iraq?

That lack of being able to draw a distinction between Iraq and Libya on the difference between the two also explains Obama's moves or lack thereof as well, because if he does do this and commit American troops and equipment to overthrowing Gaddafi, he's doing the same thing he criticized his predecessors for.

dave lukins
15 Mar 11,, 21:19
Ark Royal only lowered her flags a week ago m8 , shouldnt take long to fly em again and grab the crew back from R n R

Afraid it's far too late to get the crew back....The bar has no beer:eek::biggrin:

tankie
15 Mar 11,, 21:30
Afraid it's far too late to get the crew back....The bar has no beer:eek::biggrin:

Wheres the solly sally bash wagon Wolfgang when ya need him (a legend ) :biggrin:

T_igger_cs_30
15 Mar 11,, 21:39
Wheres the solly sally bash wagon Wolfgang when ya need him (a legend ) :biggrin:

mmmmmm currywurst mit de pommies.............. washed down by Herfy.................then onto the Merc parked in the layby :rolleyes:.......... not me of course :biggrin::Dancing-Banana::biggrin::biggrin:

tankie
15 Mar 11,, 21:45
mmmmmm currywurst mit de pommies.............. washed down by Herfy.................then onto the Merc parked in the layby :rolleyes:.......... not me of course :biggrin::Dancing-Banana::biggrin::biggrin:

Ya lyin tw~t we all did , a car load of us (taxi ) , the said , er lady had an early night afterwards , while we went on das piss , i remember (thank f##k ) i was 1st , coz u lot were all shy :biggrin:

Double Edge
15 Mar 11,, 22:54
I am saying that I have never seen a cluster involving 22 or SBS like this ever...........and I think I have been consistent all through this ............ Something is not right with the whole fiasco.
Sure, i've admitted to the same earlier.


however Hague has taken flak for ordering it ???
Douglas Alexander took him to task over it. Going over the gate instead of knocking on the front door.


Ark Royal only lowered her flags a week ago m8 , shouldnt take long to fly em again and grab the crew back from R n R
An excellent opportunity to reverse those cuts :biggrin:

tankie
15 Mar 11,, 23:02
I agree , an excellent opprtunity to reverse that decision , we agree . But there's always a but dammit , but what is the BUT in HMS Ark Royals case , its sad AND IRRESPONSIBLE IMO :mad:

troung
16 Mar 11,, 15:55
* MIDDLE EAST NEWS
* MARCH 16, 2011, 10:18 A.M. ET

Gadhafi Forces Shell Rebel-Held City
Gadhafi Forces Shell Rebel-Held City - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703899704576204361127384014.html)
By MARGARET COKER

Residents in Misrata, the country's third-largest city 200 kilometers (130 miles) east of Tripoli, say that Col. Moammar Gadhafi's armed forces are shelling the city outskirts with heavy weapons, possibly using tanks, in what is expected to be a fresh assault to regain control of the city, believed to be the only western Libyan city still in the hands of antigovernment forces.

Misrata's townspeople have rebuffed almost daily assaults by government troops over the last three weeks that it had been independent of Col. Gadhafi's control.

In this time, Misrata has provided the kind of successful self-rule experiment that many Libyans appear to crave, and if it can withstand renewed pressure by the armed forces it could become a vivid counterpoint to the kind of chaos that Col. Gadhafi has threatened will arise in the country should he be forcibly removed from power.

Misrata residents have a reputation among Libyans for being business-savvy and industrious, as well as being a very tight-knit community. These attributes, plus the emergence of strong city governing councils, are credited for keeping the city both free and united against Col. Gadhafi's assaults.

"We feel like we only have each other to count on," said Ahmad, a member of the city militia. "We have no contact from [the transitional national council in] Benghazi. We have taken matters into our own hands."

The city's lawyers' association has taken over many of the administrative functions for the bustling commercial city, which is home to Libya's busiest port, including the operation of the local electric-power stations and water services.

The council has leveraged the city's local radio station as a means to organize services and inform the town about the dangers facing them, according to residents.

"If the hospitals need a type of blood, then they announce it on the radio. If there's a fire somewhere, they also announce it. That way the fire trucks know where to go," said Iman, a housewife in Misrata.

Meanwhile, a medical committee has coordinated with outside aid groups and non-profit organizations and managed the complex logistical task of importing three tons of emergency medical supplies worth $500,000.

Most of the supplies have arrived from ships sailing from Malta, which has provided critical logistical support for the city, according to international aid organizer Mohammed al Misrati, who works with Libyan expatriates to funnel donations and emergency aid to the country of his birth. He says that Misrata officials are better organized and efficient than their counterparts in Benghazi.

"The medical committee gives us a priority list almost daily. They are organized and very professional," he said.

The city's military council, which is run by officers who defected from Gadhafi's army in the early days of the uprising, has organized neighborhood militias as well as civil defense forces that have kept the city's key installations safe from attack.

The town's militia repulsed an advancing column on tanks which invaded the city on March 6, fighting a four-hour battle that ended with the retreat of the government forces. The militia has also repelled multiple attacks by Col. Gadhafi's special forces against the city's radio antenna, according to two city fighters.

It is unclear how much coordination that the city's civil and military committees have—or even how well the different city officials get along. Journalists invited to Tripoli by the central government have been prevented from traveling to Misrata, and journalists based in the rebel-held eastern part of the country haven't been able to reach the city, due to the heavy fighting in that part of the country.

In one key case, the city authorities failed in their control of their residents' actions. After the tank battle on March 6, town fighters and other residents had captured approximately 20 government soldiers, according to two residents.

In the celebrations that erupted after the city's victory, the prisoners "disappeared," according to one resident, who said he believed that they had all been killed.

"The anger was uncontrollable. The people had thought they were going to die and I'm afraid that they took the anger out against the prisoners," the resident said in a telephone interview a day after the battle. The fate of the prisoners couldn't be independently verified.

Write to Margaret Coker at margaret.coker@wsj.com

troung
16 Mar 11,, 22:24
Big on zeal, short on organization and firepower, Libyan rebels beat a retreat

By Hamza Hendawi (CP) – 3 hours ago
The Canadian Press: Big on zeal, short on organization and firepower, Libyan rebels beat a retreat (http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5j7-QjQR5lFoGcwmT4CY8egqGEHyQ?docId=6266859)
CAIRO — They have been big on revolutionary fervour, but short on organization and firepower. That fundamental weakness is haunting Libya's rebels as Moammar Gadhafi's forces roll back the opposition's gains and threaten to defeat it completely.

The rebel army, its ranks filled mainly by average citizens taking up arms, was never able to retool their forces from a popular uprising to an effective fighting force using the allied army units, tanks and other heavy weapons they had at their disposal. For much of the fighting, those weapons have been languishing far in the east, away from the front.

More experienced army officers told the ragtag fighters not to charge west too quickly, but they did exactly that, vowing to take the capital, Tripoli, and oust Gadhafi. Forces loyal to the regime stopped their advance and then turned onto the offensive, driving rebels back with a relatively small force — around 5,000 troops by some estimates — backed by the overwhelming firepower of warplanes, gunboats, tanks, missiles and artillery.

"It was unrealistic from the start," George Joffe, a North Africa expert who lectures at England's Cambridge University, said. "They had enthusiasm but they were up against a force that is better trained and better armed."

On Wednesday, the rebels appeared close to suffering their biggest and most significant loss to date, trying to cling to the strategic city of Ajdabiya under heavy shelling by pro-Gadhafi forces besieging the city, 480 miles (800 kilometres) southeast of Tripoli.

If Ajdabiya falls, that puts the entire future of the month-old rebellion in doubt.

The city is the gateway to the long stretch of eastern Libya that has been held by the opposition for weeks. With its fall likely, regime forces on land, sea and air will be able to storm Benghazi, Libya's second largest city and the de facto capital of the opposition. Gadhafi has meanwhile reclaimed most of the western half of the country, around Tripoli, with only one major city in rebel hands there.

The rebels may have made other mistakes far from the battlefield. They placed high hopes on the West coming to their aid by imposing a no-fly zone that would even the fight with Gadhafi's forces.

That never materialized. The United States and Europe have been debating a no-fly zone for weeks. Only now has the question reached the U.N. Security Council for the first time, with supporters trying to persuade reluctant members on Wednesday to back a resolution calling for the creation of such a zone.

But a no-fly zone now may do little to significantly change the course of the conflict. And even when Gadhafi's air power wasn't the problem, the rebels never solved the problem about what to do about his tanks.

The opposition organized its leadership in cities of the east unusually quickly for such an impromptu uprising, but still its leaders were little known to the outside world, which made the U.S. and other nations hesitant to deal with them or follow France's example to recognize the Benghazi-based interim government.

The rebels also seem to have overestimated hopes that residents of Tripoli would be able to rise up and shake off Gadhafi's rule as the populations of eastern cities did — and underestimated the Libyan leader's ability to rally an effective force of supporters. Pro-Gadhafi militiamen quickly snuffed out attempts at protests in the capital with brutal attacks on residents trying to march through the streets.

But it is primarily the battlefield that may prove the rebels' undoing.

The signs of problems were there early on. On March 1, an Associated Press reporter saw pro-rebel army officers in Benghazi trying to train residents to fight — and to restrain them from going off half-cocked.

"There are people who go out on their own, some with no previous experience with weapons and I say to them that we have to train you first," Col. Saleh Ashur told the AP. "Speaking as an officer in the army, I say you have to be organized to attack, not just to go out on your own."

But the lesson didn't seem to sink in. "I would prefer to go immediately," said Mohammed Mustafa Shabeik, a 38-year-old among the recruits. "We are not afraid, all of Libya is one hand."

Days later, the rebels seized the oil ports of Brega and Ras Lanouf, west of Ajdabiya. But rather than consolidate their gains by fortifying the area, the overjoyed rebel volunteers pushed forward with their fast moving pickup trucks and light weapons. Few of the army officers were seen among them.

The around 2,000 rebel fighters promptly ran into a devastating ambush on March 6 at the tiny coastal town of Bin Jawwad. In the fighting that followed over the next week, they were pushed all the way back to Ajdabiya. A few rebel army officers appeared at the front but had little visible effect on the chaotic volunteer forces, who wasted valuable ammunition firing in the air and scattered at the sight of a warplane in the skies above them.

A few tanks and multi-system launchers firing Grad rockets made an appearance in the final days of the battle for Ras Lanouf but they had little effect in blunting the government offensive.

None of the dozens of tanks and armoured personnel carriers seen in at captured bases in the eastern cities made an appearance on the battlefield.

Only as Gadhafi forces besieged Ajdabiya this week did the rebels manage to deploy a few aged warplanes they had from air bases in the east. They struck warships off the coast and hit Gadhafi forces Wednesday outside the city — but it appeared too little too late. Opposition officials said they had held off using their warplanes, which might have made some difference earlier in the fighting, in hopes that a no-fly zone would be imposed.

Still, Gadhafi's side has its own problems. It boasts a powerful arsenal, but not a lot of manpower. It may be able to drive rebels back, but not necessarily able to occupy territory.

This raises the possibility that if Gadhafi's forces do sweep over much of the rebel forces, it will be left with an eastern Libya barely under the regime's control. The result could be a long, unsettled guerrilla conflict, with a restive population, weapons plentiful and a desert and mountain environment with plenty of hideouts.

At the same time, Gadhafi could face increased international sanctions limiting his access to cash and weapons.

Theodore Karasik, a Dubai-based security expert, says that, over the long term, the fight may not be over.

"It all depends on the amount of weapons available to Gadhafi and the amount of money he has to spend to keep fighters and tribes loyal to him," he said.

Copyright © 2011 The Canadian Press. All rights reserved.

troung
17 Mar 11,, 01:57
Stunned by Gaddafi assault, Libyans give up on change
By Maria Golovnina TRIPOLI (Reuters) - All hope for change was crushed for a young Libyan businessman when he saw police kill two protesters outside his shop in central Tripoli. Maria Golovnina Tripoli (reuters) - All Hope For Change Was Crushed For A Young Libyan Businessman When He Saw Police Kill Two Protesters Outside His Shop In Central Tripoli. Wed Mar 16, 9:16 am ET

"This is terrible. This is bad," he said, looking around nervously in an outdoor cafe overlooking Algeria square, the site of recent clashes between opponents and supporters of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi.

"Gaddafi is old. Young people use the Internet. They want change," he said, speaking anonymously for fear of being identified by the authorities.

"I want to make a future for myself. But with Gaddafi, there is no future ... Here, we are angry. But we can't show it because Gaddafi is here in the city."

Just two weeks ago, Tripoli was abuzz with talk of imminent change after uprisings in neighboring Egypt and Tunisia inspired young people to take to the streets and call for the end of Gaddafi's four-decade rule.

The deaths of protesters elsewhere in the Arab world have only ignited people's rage. But in Libya, Gaddafi's blistering military response to the revolt has shocked people into silence.

"I can't do that (protest)," said the businessman. "I am 25. I don't want to be shot."

Flanked by grand buildings dating back to Italy's 1911-1943 colonial rule, his friends nodded in agreement as they smoked waterpipes quietly on the side of the square.

Many of them were excited to watch Arab uprisings unfold via reports they saw on social networks. It was a remarkable novelty for a generation that has known no leader other than Gaddafi.

But with the Internet now switched off for most ordinary Libyans and the state security apparatus cracking down on any forms of dissent, many just want to get on with their lives.

"I am scared," said Waleed Jamal, 24, an economics student. He said he wanted to focus on studying and get a good job. "I hope everything will be alright."

Gaddafi has pledged to fight until the last drop of blood to crush the rebels holed up in their eastern stronghold of Benghazi. He says they are Islamist militants who want to set up a Taliban-style dictatorship in Libya.

The rebels say they are fighting for political change and deny any link to extremist groups. They frequently shout pro-democracy slogans adopted from a wave of protests that has swept through the Arab world this year.

Far from the battlefields of the east, where rebels fight troops with heavy weapons, Tripoli's tech-savvy professionals feel betrayed by the West. But they also feel their peaceful cause has now disintegrated into an ugly guerrilla conflict.

"Even if Gaddafi is not right, no one will achieve anything by throwing rocks," said the businessman.

CALL FOR CHANGE

A popular call for change muted gradually into a whisper in Tripoli as Gaddafi's forces continued to thrust eastwards toward the rebel stronghold of Benghazi. In Tripoli, Gaddafi's heavily fortified base, his victory is a forgone conclusion.

The city is awash with talk about reprisals. Residents say plainclothes police appear at night in their neighborhoods to arrest young people suspected of taking part in earlier demonstrations or contacts with foreign journalists.

Streets are patrolled by Gaddafi's feared militiamen. Access to neighborhoods such as Tajoura, where people had earlier tried to stage demonstrations, has been restricted by army checkpoints.

In areas recaptured by state troops, security agents are rounding up people suspected of ties to the rebels, residents said. The Internet has been mostly cut off for ordinary people in Tripoli, and mobile connections are patchy.

Protests have fizzled and anti-Gaddafi graffiti have been painted over. Last Friday, police fired teargas outside a mosque to stamp out a protest before it even started.

Social networking sites are still full of defiant messages, calling for another rally, dubbed Freedom Friday, on March 18. "We definitely will prevail 'inshallah' (with God's help). It's just a matter of time and patience," said one Twitter user called Lebeeya.

Businesses shut in the wake of the crisis, but signs of normality have returned slowly to the streets. Weary of weeks of turmoil, people said they wanted to get on with their lives.

"Either Muammar or not, I don't care as long as I have my shop," said Mehdi, a pastry maker, as a call to prayer sounded from a mosque converted from an old Italian Catholic cathedral. In an old market in central Tripoli -- a maze of twisty passages selling everything from turtles to spices -- people said some vendors were still staying away.

"Some of them are a little bit scared to open their shops," said Murat Salah, 23, who has recently reopened his wedding merchandise store. Nearby, militiamen watched the crowd of shoppers intently from the back of an army truck.

Whether out of fear or genuine belief, most ordinary people echoed Gaddafi's firebrand rhetoric, blaming all the trouble on an alliance between al Qaeda and the West jointly seeking to destroy Libya and take over its oil.

"I have children ... They don't want destruction, they want the leader to stay. They don't want change," Mohamed Abdallah, a father of seven, as he strolled through the market with his wife.

"Bin Laden and al Qaeda are ... inciting young people to make trouble. They drink whiskey inside mosques. They have guns, women. They turn mosques into discos."

Ramadan Ali, a Tripoli resident who spends most of his time waving a green flag in Green Square in support of Gaddafi, said: "He gave us freedom and democracy. Everyone has a house, a car, money. We don't need anyone else."

(Writing by Maria Golovnina, Editing by Jeffrey Heller)
Copyright © 2011 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved

InExile
17 Mar 11,, 02:49
It does seem that in a few days Gaddafi will be in control of most of Libya, but for a handful of large cities. Maybe these will be able to hold out for a few more weeks, or months but eventually they will fall too.

Notice that the rulers in Bahrain chose to crack down heavily against the protesters. The memo across the middle east does seem to be that the best response of an autocratic regime against a popular uprising is brutal repression; and the international community will do nothing.

Guess we are nearing the end of the Arab revolts of 2011. :frown:

cyppok
17 Mar 11,, 04:37
It does seem that in a few days Gaddafi will be in control of most of Libya, but for a handful of large cities. Maybe these will be able to hold out for a few more weeks, or months but eventually they will fall too.

Notice that the rulers in Bahrain chose to crack down heavily against the protesters. The memo across the middle east does seem to be that the best response of an autocratic regime against a popular uprising is brutal repression; and the international community will do nothing.

Guess we are nearing the end of the Arab revolts of 2011. :frown:

If they are using Katyushas/Grad and artillery perhaps a week.
LiveLeak.com - Gaddafi's psychopaths fire katyusha rockets towards Adjabiya town, March 14th, '11 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=808_1300188911)

This is Grad I m fairly positive. Even if there was a no-fly zone and this was used eventually there would be a move to hit ground targets etc... ergo full scale war onto a sovereign nation.

Battle for Benghazi looms, Libya army issues ultimatum - swissinfo (http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/news/international/Gaddafi_pummels_rebels_as_war_outpaces_diplomacy.h tml?cid=29611886)

Officer of Engineers
17 Mar 11,, 07:12
I would not be so quick as to dismissed the rebels just yet. Benghazi will be the first true battle both sides will fight. If the rebels hold nerve and it seems it is under competent military leadership there, Benghazi could also be a death trap for the Lybian Army.

citanon
17 Mar 11,, 07:17
I would not be so quick as to dismissed the rebels just yet. Benghazi will be the first true battle both sides will fight. If the rebels hold nerve and it seems it is under competent military leadership there, Benghazi could also be a death trap for the Lybian Army.

Col, is the city too big for Ghadaffi's forces to seal off food, water and fuel supplies and put it under siege?

Officer of Engineers
17 Mar 11,, 07:35
As I stated before, this has been a war of 100s, not 1000s. Only one single brigade is advancing on Banghazi.

citanon
17 Mar 11,, 08:04
As I stated before, this has been a war of 100s, not 1000s. Only one single brigade is advancing on Banghazi.

And it's a city of ~half a million people. Got it.

citanon
17 Mar 11,, 08:09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQMX9IXVqbU

Mihais
17 Mar 11,, 11:21
24684


The city could be surrounded with relative ease and subjected to a siege.Khamis Gaddafi(or whomever is leading the government forces)would be a fool to launch a hasty attack with limited forces.However if they manage to cut the city from the outer world(that can be done only with light mobile forces) they have a chance to lure the rebels out.Another defeat and the rebels would break.
They have to finish the rebels soon,otherwise a prolonged siege will be nothing but another Sarajevo.

Officer of Engineers
17 Mar 11,, 13:42
Numbers ain't there. The rebels also have light mobile forces in the form of technicals. The problem for the rebels is the artillery which is protected by a reserved force. If the technicals can get within range of the reserves, the artillery has to withdraw.

Also, if rebel nerve can hold, even the artillery ain't going to dislodge them. Soviet artillery didn't dislodge the Germans at Berlin and had to do house to house fighting and with that, Qaddafy's qualitative advantages disappears.

troung
18 Mar 11,, 03:09
Libyan rebellion has radical Islamist fervor: Benghazi link to Islamic militancy:U.S. Military Document Reveals
Thu, 2011-03-17 12:59 — editor
Daya Gamage – Foreign News Desk Asian Tribune
Washington, D.C. 17 March (Asiantribune.com):

Libyan rebellion has radical Islamist fervor: Benghazi link to Islamic militancy:U.S. Military Document Reveals | Asian Tribune (http://www.asiantribune.com/news/2011/03/17/libyan-rebellion-has-radical-islamist-fervor-benghazi-link-islamic-militancyus-milit)

Well known to the United States policymakers in Obama White House and Clinton State Department along with the National Security Council but not widely known to American mainstream media, the U.S. West Point Military Academy’s Combating Terrorism Center document reveals that Libya sent more fighters to Iraq’s Islamic militancy on a per-capita basis than any other Muslim country, including Saudi Arabia.

Perhaps more alarmingly for Western policymakers, most of the fighters came from eastern Libya, the center of the current uprising against Muammar el-Qaddafi.

The analysis of the Combating Terrorism Center of West Point was based on the records captured by coalition forces in October 2007 in a raid near Sinjar, along Iraq’s Syrian border.

The eastern Libyan city of Darnah sent more fighters to Iraq than any other single city or town, according to the West Point report. It noted that 52 militants came to Iraq from Darnah, a city of just 80,000 people (the second-largest source of fighters was Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, which has a population of more than 4 million).

Benghazi, the capital of Libya’s provisional government declared by the anti-Qaddafi rebels, sent in 21 fighters, again a disproportionate number of the whole.

If the 2007 captured records revealed the Eastern Libyan participation in the anti-coalition forces militancy in Iraq one could imagine the Banghazi-Darnah export of Islamists since then.

“Libyans were more fired up to travel to Iraq to kill Americans than anyone else in the Arabic-speaking world,” Andrew Exum, a counterinsurgency specialist and former Army Ranger noted in a blog posting recently. “This might explain why those rebels from Libya's eastern provinces are not too excited about U.S. military intervention. It might also give some pause to those in the United States so eager to arm Libya's rebels.”

Despite this data and information available to the United Stated government Secretary of State Hilary Clinton met late Monday 14 with a leader of the Libyan rebel movement in Paris privately and without a public statement. Mrs. Clinton met the opposition rebel leader Mahmoud Jibril at her hotel in Paris after attending a dinner with foreign ministers of the countries of the Group 8 who discussed ways to increase pressure on Colonel Qaddafi’s Libyan regime.

The West Point report said “Both Darnah and Benghazi have long been associated with Islamic militancy in Libya.

A significant progress was made by the Libyan rebels when the French President Nicolas Sarkozy welcomed a pair of envoys from the Libyan National Council, the rebel leadership, early this month. France indicated that it would recognize the rebel proclaimed provisional government based in Benghazi. Britain also signaled that it may also recognize the rebel authority.

Despite those developments the Obama administration seems to be vacillating having no firm Libyan policy since the rebellion.

If the rebellion succeeds in toppling the Qaddafi regime it will have direct access to the tens of billions of dollars that Qaddafi is believed to have squirreled away in overseas accounts during his four-decade rule.

The once-secret Iraqi “Sinjar documents” which is the basis of the West Point analytical document provide an additional reason for the Obama administration to take a cautious approach in its dealings with the rebels from both Darnah and Benghazi. The document noted that Islamist organizations in both cities led an earlier uprising against Qaddafi in the mid-1990s that was brutally put down by the Libyan dictator.

Colonel Qaddafi renounced terrorism, paid billions of dollars to Lockerby-victim families, allowed the U.S. to remove nuclear facilities and established diplomatic relations with the United States. Qaddafi has continuously opposed the al-Qaeda operations in the Middle East and Northern Africa.

The Asian Tribune provides here the data and information from an analytical document of the U.S. Defense Department.

Al-Qaeda’s Foreign Fighters in Iraq: A First Look at the Sinjar Records is the latest in a series of reports from the Combating Terrorism Center drawing on newly released information from captured al-Qaeda documents maintained in the Defense Department’s Harmony Data Base.

The introduction of the report says:

(Quote) On December 4, 2007 Abu Umar al?Baghdadi, the reputed Emir of al-Qaeda’s Islamic State of Iraq (ISI), claimed that his organization was almost purely Iraqi, containing only 200 foreign fighters.1 Twelve days later, on December 16, 2007, Ayman al?Zawahiri urged Sunnis in Iraq to unite behind the ISI. Both statements are part of al-Qaeda’s ongoing struggle to appeal to Iraqis, many of whom resent the ISI’s foreign leadership and its desire to impose strict Islamic law.

In November 2007, the Combating Terrorism Center at West Point received nearly 700 records of foreign nationals that entered Iraq between August 2006 and August 2007. The data compiled and analyzed in this report is drawn from these personnel records, which was collected by al-Qaeda’s Iraqi affiliates, first the Mujahidin Shura Council (MSC) and then the Islamic State of Iraq (ISI). The records contain varying levels of information on each fighter, but often include the fighter’s country of origin, hometown, age, occupation, the name of the fighter’s recruiter, and even the route the fighter took to Iraq. The records were captured by coalition forces in October 2007 in a raid near Sinjar, along Iraq’s Syrian border.

Libya_1.JPG
Anti-Libyan regime fighters prepare for battle in Ajdabiya in eastern Libya

Although there is some ambiguity in the data, it is likely that all of the fighters listed in the Sinjar Records crossed into Iraq from Syria. (Un-Quote)

The Asian Tribune presents here the salient data, information and observations of the Combating Terrorism Center of West Point maintained in the U.S. Defense Department’s Harmony Data Base. The analysis gives an alarming picture of the political shade of the Libyan rebels of Benghazi and Darnah, the eastern stronghold of anti-Qaddafi movement. The observation in this Defense Department document is very revealing.

(Begin Report):

Initial Findings

Country of Origin

Saudi Arabia was by far the most common nationality of the fighters’ in this sample; 41% (244) of the 595 records that included the fighter’s nationality indicated they were of Saudi Arabian origin.

Libya was the next most common country of origin, with 18.8% (112) of the fighters listing their nationality stating they hailed from Libya. Syria, Yemen, and Algeria were the next most common origin countries with 8.2% (49), 8.1% (48), and 7.2% (43), respectively. Moroccans accounted for 6.1% (36) of the records and Jordanians 1.9% (11).

The obvious discrepancy between previous studies of Iraqi foreign fighters and the Sinjar Records is the percentage of Libyan fighters. (See Appendix 1 for a brief summary of previous foreign fighter studies.) No previous study has indicated that more than 4 percent of fighters were Libyan. Indeed, a June 2005 report by NBC quoted a U.S. government source indicating that Libya did not make a top ten list of origin nationalities for foreign fighters in Iraq.9 As late as July 15, 2007, the Los Angeles Times cited a U.S. Army source reporting that only 10 percent of all foreign fighters in Iraq hailed from North Africa.10 The Sinjar Records suggest that number is much higher. Almost 19 percent of the fighters in the Sinjar Records came from Libya alone. Furthermore, Libya contributed far more fighters per capita than any other nationality in the Sinjar Records, including Saudi Arabia.

The previous reports may have collectively understated the Libyan contribution to the fight in Iraq, but the relative synchronization of earlier analyses suggests that the pattern of immigration to Iraq has simply shifted over time. In an admittedly small sample, 76.9% (30) of the 39 Libyans that listed their arrival date in Iraq entered the country between May and July 2007, which may indicate a spring “surge” of Libyan recruits to Iraq. If the numbers cited by the Los Angeles Times in July 2007 are any indication, even the U.S. Army may have underestimated the Libyan contingent in Iraq.

The apparent surge in Libyan recruits traveling to Iraq may be linked the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group’s (LIFG) increasingly cooperative relationship with al-Qaeda, which culminated in the LIFG officially joining al-Qaeda on November 3, 2007.

City/Town of Origin

Of 591 records that included the country of origin of the fighters, 440 also contained information on the home city/town the fighters hailed from. The most common cities that the fighters called home were Darnah, Libya and Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, with 52 and 51 fighters respectively. Darnah, with a population just over 80,000 compared to Riaydh’s 4.3 million, has far and away the largest per capita number of fighters in the Sinjar records. The next most common hometowns? in real terms? listed in the Sinjar records were Mecca (43), Beghazi (21), and Casablanca (17). City/town of origin for Saudi Arabia, Libya, Morocco, Algeria, and Syria are broken out in greater detail below.

Libyan Hometowns

The vast majority of Libyan fighters that included their hometown in the Sinjar Records resided in the country’s Northeast, particularly the coastal cities of Darnah 60.2% (53) and Benghazi 23.9% (21).

Both Darnah and Benghazi have long been associated with Islamic militancy in Libya, in particular for an uprising by Islamist organizations in the mid?1990s. The Libyan government blamed the uprising on “infiltrators from the Sudan and Egypt” and one group—the Libyan Fighting Group (jama?ah al?libiyah al?muqatilah)—claimed to have Afghan veterans in its ranks.14 The Libyan uprisings became extraordinarily violent. Qaddafi used helicopter gunships in Benghazi, cut telephone, electricity, and water supplies to Darnah and famously claimed that the militants “deserve to die without trial, like dogs.”

Abu Layth al?Libi, LIFG’s Emir, reinforced Benghazi and Darnah’s importance to Libyan jihadis in his announcement that LIFG had joined al?Qa’ida, saying:

‘It is with the grace of God that we were hoisting the banner of jihad against this apostate regime under the leadership of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, which sacrificed the elite of its sons and commanders in combating this regime whose blood was spilled on the mountains of Darnah, the streets of Benghazi, the outskirts of Tripoli, the desert of Sabha, and the sands of the beach.’

Like other governments in the region, Libya appears concerned about the possibility of jihadi violence within its borders. In May 2007, the Libyan government arrested several Libyans on the grounds that they were planning a car bomb attack similar to an April attack in Algeria.17 And in July 2007, a group calling itself al-Qaeda in Eastern Libya announced a suicide attack in Darnah.18 Libya’s leader Muammar Qaddafi has taken measures to mitigate the threat from such groups, and has reportedly released over 80 Muslim Brotherhood activists in the hope that they will moderate the views of more violent Islamist activists.

If LIFG is funneling Libyans into Iraq, it may exacerbate rumored tensions between LIFG elements over whether or not to concentrate on militant activity within Libya’s borders.20 Such debates are common among national jihadi movements shifting focus to global issues. This sort of debate disrupted both Egyptian Islamic Jihad and the Egyptian Islamic Group in the 1990s.21 Reports suggesting that LIFG’s decision to join al-Qaeda was controversial may be exaggerated, but they probably reflect a contentious debate over LIFG’s future.22 LIFG’s support for al-Qaeda’s Iraqi affiliate has probably increased its stature in al-Qaeda’s leadership, but complicated its internal dynamics.

Recent political developments in Afghanistan and Pakistan, the prevalence of Libyan fighters in Iraq, and evidence of a well?established smuggling route for Libyans through Egypt, suggests that Libyan factions (primarily the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group) are increasingly important in al-Qaeda. The Sinjar Records offer some evidence that Libyans began surging into Iraq in larger numbers beginning in May 2007. Most of the Libyan recruits came from cities in North?East Libya, an area long known for jihadi?linked militancy. Libyan fighters were much more likely than other nationalities to be listed as suicide bombers (85% for Libyans, 56% for all others).

The Libyan Islamic Fighting Group’s unification with al-Qaeda and its apparent decision to prioritize providing logistical support to the Islamic State of Iraq is likely controversial within the organization. It is likely that some LIFG factions still want to prioritize the fight against the Libyan regime, rather than the fight in Iraq. It may be possible to exacerbate schisms within LIFG, and between LIFG’s leaders and al-Qaeda’s traditional Egyptian and Saudi power?base. (End Report)

- Asian Tribune -

donate_button.png

cyppok
18 Mar 11,, 11:09
Libya Live Blog - March 17 | Al Jazeera Blogs (http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-17)



6:21pm

Egypt says that it will not intervene militarily in Libya. Responding to Hillary Clinton, the US secretary of state's, comments earlier about possible "Arab involvement" in military action, Menha Bakhoum, an Egyptian foreign ministry spokesperson told Reuters:

Egypt will not be among those Arab states. We will not be involved in any military intervention. No intervention, period."



6:16pm

The Pentagon has voiced "concern about conducting military operations inside Libya".

"It would be logical if one of [US Defence Secretary Robert Gates'] concerns about a no-fly zone is the element of attacking Libyan air defenses, then an option of air strikes would be pretty similar," Colonel David Lapan, a spokesman, said, adding that there was concern regarding the conduct of such operations.

Basically once you start attacking the other side this ceases to be a civil war and simply becomes a yet another colonial adventure.



5:06pm

General Norton Schwartz, the chief of the US air force, says that imposing a no-fly zone over Libya would "not be sufficient" to reverse the advance of Muammar Gaddafi's forces on opposition strongholds.

Speaking to the Senate Armed Services Committee, he said that it could take "upwards of a week" to set up a no-fly zone.

He said that if the US were to get involved in international efforts to set up the no-fly zone, aircraft based in Europe and in the United States would be use, but some resources currently being used in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq would also be used.

I have several thoughts. They are somewhat philosophical. Lets say the no-fly zone is enforced, Qadaffi is bombed and rebels push forth with air support while military supplies of vehicles etc give them a mechanized division to "re-take" Libya and create regime change. Assume this all happens and they install a new leader. What happens after support is dropped and Tripoli and other cities rebel in opposition to gain their freedom from a different despot in a different part of country?

What happens if they need help retaking things from Qadaffi because those cities can hold out as well? Do you bomb them claiming that its ok because the people actually want freedom?

Lets say all of this is done and we get another "despot" lets say in Ivory Coast (which is what is happening now) do we go there as well? He may not have gotten the majority but obviously a plurality did support him and he may have won the majority a few years ago but now the guy is a despot because a Euro backed candidate is declared winner from outside the country.

What about Nigeria they might have elections sooner or later perhaps we won't like whom they have or the people in Egypt will chose the wrong candidate and a moderate intervention will steere them etc...

When does it stop? ... when the money runs out is not a good enough answer

Mihais
18 Mar 11,, 14:44
Never.Hypocrisy is the rule of the game since Sumer.The conclusion is that people need to be careful in which sort of hornet nest they step.Gaddafi was a bit unlucky this time.

I take your point about the nature of the rebels.At the top levels they are mostly former collaborators of Gaddafi.All they will do is use the same sort of measures against those loyal to Gaddafi to the end(his tribe).

It's a mess that has nothing to do with democracy ,human rights and other hijacked ideas.

kato
18 Mar 11,, 23:56
If the technicals can get within range of the reserves, the artillery has to withdraw.
The artillery in the Benghazi theater is apparently mostly composed of self-propelled howitzers (Italian Palmarias on OF-40) firing at 20-25 km range. Reserve force only has to bind the enemy for ten minutes for the SPHs to conveivably scoot to a safe position and support that.


if rebel nerve can hold
Considering that in light of the past two weeks of operations, i doubt it will.

dave lukins
19 Mar 11,, 00:11
The rebel nerve has had a boost. They will know that Qaddafi is turning tail and re-thinking his next, and probable, final move. Their moral will be sky high if they think help is just off shore. Qaddafi won't have the guts to call our bluff...yet again he will not be sleeping well tonight ;)

Double Edge
19 Mar 11,, 00:46
Qaddafi won't have the guts to call our bluff...yet again he will not be sleeping well tonight ;)
His spokespeople seem to be having a ball with issuing their statements, all smiles & laughs.

Their latest statement asks for intl observers, from Germany, China, Malta & Turkey to verify their declared cease fire. They think there is too much misinformation in the free press and this is giving Hilary Clinton the wrong idea :biggrin:

They seem to interpret this statement as a cessation of hostilities on both sides, if they are provoked by the rebels they will respond as its a 'natural reaction'. Looks like they are trying to consolodate their gains before any adverse action is taken on them.

dave lukins
19 Mar 11,, 01:01
His spokespeople seem to be having a ball with issuing their statements, all smiles & laughs.

Their latest statement asks for intl observers, from Germany, China, Malta & Turkey to verify their declared cease fire. They think there is too much misinformation in the free press and this is giving Hilary Clinton the wrong idea :biggrin:

They seem to interpret this statement as a cessation of hostilities on both sides, if they are provoked by the rebels they will respond as its a 'natural reaction'. Looks like they are trying to consolodate their gains before any adverse action is taken on them.

He played the good guy card by pulling out his killers as soon as he heard the news that a NFZ could be implemented. He is now calling the shots and demanding observers as he knows with int observers there would be no air to ground attacks.

kato
19 Mar 11,, 02:13
Actually, he already called for international observers a couple weeks ago.

25th February - Gaddafi asks for a investigation team from either the UN or the African Union
6th March - EU deploys Humanitarian Observer Team to Libya (under Agostino Miozzo, EU Director-General for Crisis Reaction)
7th March - UN announces Ban Ki Moon and Gaddafi arraigned for a OCHA Observer Team to be sent to Tripolis

At least they're consistent.

The reports of the OCHA on Libya can be found [here (http://ochaonline.un.org/tabid/7396/language/en-US/Default.aspx)]. In the current issue among other things it reports sexual assault on women in rebel-held territories, civilians being hindered from fleeing combat zones (or in other words being used as human shields by rebels) and physical violence and thefts against Black Africans living in rebel-controlled territories in Libya.

Dago
19 Mar 11,, 02:28
They are just as inconsistent as others were. Maybe WRT, calling for observers. But they're in general - first he was saying he would go house too house - now he is saying he is staying on the outskirts to protect the people. First he said it was an American plot. Next he said it was al Qaeda. etc etc...

There is no credibility for this Government. I am not sure you can even call it a Government! Should call it - A force for Gadaffi's PR speeches. :cool:


This is like, during Iraq, saying Baghdad bob -

"There are no American infidels in Baghdad. Never!"

"My feelings - as usual - we will slaughter them all"

"Our initial assessment is that they will all die"

"I blame Al-Jazeera - they are marketing for the Americans!"

And then afterwards - the report switches over to embeds - and us see US forces in Baghdad.


Edit - How many rapes have occurred? You have a specific number? They were treated, or were interviewed? You have a per-capita number?

kato
19 Mar 11,, 02:37
Edit - How many rapes have occurred? You have a specific number? They were treated, or were interviewed? You have a per-capita number?
No statistics. Reported by some organization who interviewed people transitioning the borders. Wouldn't give too much on it. Apparently happened on the border to Tunisia too, by security guards. And with sexual assault, we're not necessarily talking about rape btw.

The part with the civilians hindered from fleeing combat zones is a bit more serious, in particular in light of the resolution text.

Dago
19 Mar 11,, 02:45
No statistics. Reported by some organization who interviewed people transitioning the borders. Wouldn't give too much on it. Apparently happened on the border to Tunisia too, by security guards. And with sexual assault, we're not necessarily talking about rape btw.

The part with the civilians hindered from fleeing combat zones is a bit more serious, in particular in light of the resolution text.

In no way do I doubt that all of this is occurring. There has been huge transition, actually chaotic, and normal day life has been effected, internal police and security and such, and all efforts have been placed on defending themselves from an attack. While you have anywhere, sick minded individuals that sexual assault women. Undoubtedly, I wouldn't discount the increase in crime. As these individuals are less fearful, as the lack of police, and order present. However, I was just curious, if this was wide-spread, for instance a group of rebels, pillaging a block/village of women. Thats what came to my mind. Thats where my question was geared towards.

Also I am trying to find the report - but only gives a excerpt - doesn't say which party was responsible.

IOM estimates that some 22,500 people remain stranded at the Libyan borders, with over 16,000 being Bangladeshis. An expected 40 to 50 long-haul flights will be needed to repatriate all the migrants. According to UNHCR, increasing accounts of violence and harassment in Libya against sub-Saharan Africans are alarming. The accounts come from eastern and western areas. They include beating, intimidation, sexual violence, and theft of personal property and immigration documents.

"All parties to the conflict in Libya must take care to ensure that civilians are protected from harm," ERC Amos said today. "I am deeply concerned about the reportedly indiscriminate nature of the fighting, and particularly the use of heavy artillery and aerial bombardments. We are also hearing reports of hospital closures at the very time when

Officer of Engineers
19 Mar 11,, 04:26
The artillery in the Benghazi theater is apparently mostly composed of self-propelled howitzers (Italian Palmarias on OF-40) firing at 20-25 km range. Reserve force only has to bind the enemy for ten minutes for the SPHs to conveivably scoot to a safe position and support that.A single brigade based upon the Soviet model, the reserves would be company strength. Even against Technicals, they ain't going to blind anyone.


Considering that in light of the past two weeks of operations, i doubt it will.Except this is no longer rebels alone but their entire families. Either the men wins or their families die.

S2
19 Mar 11,, 06:31
Thanks, Troung, for the valuable contribution from the Asian Tribune and USMA Combatting Terrorism Center. It reminds of the last line to the old Who song, Won't Get Fooled Again-

"...Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss."

Both your contribution and Mihais are wise words of which to pay heed.

cyppok
19 Mar 11,, 07:46
A single brigade based upon the Soviet model, the reserves would be company strength. Even against Technicals, they ain't going to blind anyone.

Except this is no longer rebels alone but their entire families. Either the men wins or their families die.

Your assuming the entire population of the city would be slaughtered my guess is the rebel officers run to a different country or just change their stripes once again etc. Doubt the fallout would be as bad as media portrays the hype.

troung
19 Mar 11,, 07:48
Except this is no longer rebels alone but their entire families. Either the men wins or their families die.

They would flee towards the border.

troung
19 Mar 11,, 08:03
WSJ Blogs
Washington Wire
Political Insight and Analysis From The Wall Street Journal's Capital Bureau

* Transcript of Obama’s Remarks on Libya
* Burris Sets Up Legal Fund; Reid to Help

* March 18, 2011, 4:27 PM ET

Brennan: U.S. Wary of Terrorists in Libya
Brennan: U.S. Wary of Terrorists in Libya - Washington Wire - WSJ (http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2011/03/18/brennan-u-s-wary-of-terrorists-in-libya/?mod=google_news_blog)

By Evan Perez

U.S. counter-terrorism officials are wary that al Qaeda affiliates in North Africa could try take advantage of the upheaval in Libya, seeking a new foothold, said John Brennan, the top White House counter-terrorism official.

A Libyan rebel poses near a tank captured from Libyan government forces south of Benghazi, Libya, on Friday. (AP Photo/Anja Niedringhaus)

Mr. Brennan told reporters Friday that the U.S. is trying to make sure that “the terrorist elements” active in the region don’t “take advantage of the situation.”

However, he said, the U.S. recognizes that some leaders of the Libyan rebellion are simply trying to throw off “the yoke” of dictatorship, and the Obama administration wants to work with those people.

Groups such as al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb are active in Algeria and other countries in the region and have sought to bolster the opposition to Libyan leader Col. Moammar Gadhafi, raising fears about the type of government that could replace the four-decade-old dictatorship if it falls. Mr. Brennan said that if Mr. Gadhafi manages to survive, he could resume sponsoring terrorism in the region.

Turning to Yemen, Mr. Brennan said he planned to speak later Friday to Yemeni President Ali Abdullah Saleh, whose security forces allegedly opened fire on protesters. Mr. Brennan condemned the reports of violence against “peaceful protesters.”

Mr. Brennan, speaking at an event in New York City hosted by New York University Law School’s Brennan Center for Justice, talked mostly about defending the Obama administration’s preference for using U.S. criminal courts to try terror detainees, while reserving military tribunals for some suspects, particularly those already imprisoned at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. He also stood by the administration’s plan to close the Guantanamo prison, and said Congress needed to lift restrictions on moving prisoners to the U.S. for trial.

Mr. Brennan also sought to clarify the administration’s plans on how to handle U.S. citizens accused of terror offenses. He said all arrested in the U.S. and any U.S. citizen detained overseas will be tried in federal criminal courts, not in military trials as some lawmakers have argued.

T_igger_cs_30
19 Mar 11,, 08:38
Why is this any different now from say 1991? or this document from 2006?.... There are lots more out there.


Al-Qaeda in East Africa and the Horn

24696

Again just shows that the WoT is no where near done.


Addition... We can go back to the 70's when other terrorist groups were setting up training camps in Lybia, and going there like they were taking package holidays also Troung.

Officer of Engineers
19 Mar 11,, 08:45
Your assuming the entire population of the city would be slaughtered my guess is the rebel officers run to a different country or just change their stripes once again etc. Doubt the fallout would be as bad as media portrays the hype.The press has enough photos for Qaddafy's police to goto work.


They would flee towards the border.How? I'm talking women and children.

T_igger_cs_30
19 Mar 11,, 08:54
Addition to post 109.

Mihais
19 Mar 11,, 10:41
Thanks, Troung, for the valuable contribution from the Asian Tribune and USMA Combatting Terrorism Center. It reminds of the last line to the old Who song, Won't Get Fooled Again-

"...Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss."

Both your contribution and Mihais are wise words of which to pay heed.


Thanks,Sir.I'm afraid I'm suddenly obliged to feel very old.Wisdom and youth aren't supposed to be together.:biggrin:
Sir,what really annoys me is that we have seen this movie half a dozen times during the last 20 years and we learn nothing,neither at the average Joe level(which we are,most of us) nor at decision making level.People get killed,countries are ruined and all we have in the end is an unofficial ''oops,we missed that''.

S2
19 Mar 11,, 16:13
"...we learn nothing..."

Oh, I don't agree. We learn plenty. One might be the dis-connect between lessons-learned from the past and useful application to the next similar circumstance.

Also, similar isn't same. That's part of the problem.

There are others too, wouldn't you agree? Most notably a universe lacking perfect clarity while full of deceitful souls.

Sorry for the brief departure from the temporal into something a bit more enduring.

We need to hold our cards close here and keep our own quiet counsel. What happens in Libya isn't our business yet (if at all) IMV.

Mihais
19 Mar 11,, 18:48
Concur,Sir.Now,that's wisdom.
The Libyan affair is an Anglo-French operation.The US did it's part as an ally to support it diplomatically ,militarily with whatever air&naval assets were in the AO and that's enough IMO.
I hope Romania doesn't get involved in any way in this mess(A-stan is enough).That's only to say a little F... You to that lil' bastard Sarkozy.He managed to harm our interests and a little poke in the eye would serve him well.

Getting back to our newest war,much depends on the morale of Gaddafi's troops.If they hold their nerve and have a modicum of skill and leadership this could turn into a serious bloodbath.They hold plenty of cities and the only things needed to turn one of those into a fortress are skill and a bit of time.The rebels and Anglo- French SOF may win the desert,but inside the cities the AF is of limited use.ROE's nothwithstanding.

Tribal politics are the key to the loyalists morale right now,IMO.

Officer of Engineers
19 Mar 11,, 19:01
Gentlemen,

I have been arguing that this is not the right war for us but that does not make this the wrong war. I remind you that this is the man who initiated terror strikes against us, both Berlin and Lockerbie. Whatever the outcome of this war and its aftermath, going after Qaddafy is not wrong by any stretch of the imagination

cyppok
19 Mar 11,, 19:18
Libya Military Strikes Draw Closer With French Warplanes Over Libyan Skies - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-19/qaddafi-defies-cease-fire-in-benghazi-attacks-as-west-prepares-for-action.html)


Warplanes coursed in the sky over Libya in preparation for attacks on forces loyal to Muammar Qaddafi after the regime scorned international calls for a cease-fire and assaulted the rebel stronghold of Benghazi.

“Right now our planes are blocking air strikes on the city” of Benghazi, French President Nicolas Sarkozy told reporters today. “French planes are ready to act against armored vehicles that would be threatening unarmed civilians.”


“The time for action has come,” British Prime Minister David Cameron said. It is “vitally important action takes place, urgently.”

Dumb and Dumber... I am curious what Russia got for abstaining during the UN vote.


The U.K is deploying Tornado and BAE Systems Plc Eurofighter Typhoon jets. Italy’s cabinet approved the use of as many as seven air bases for the operation. Italy is only providing bases, not aircraft, for the mission for the moment, Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi said. The NATO base in Naples will probably be the main center for coordinated international action, Berlusconi told reporters in Paris.

Libya has about 30 sites with surface-to-air (SAM) missiles, linked to 15 early warning radar, that pose a “significant threat” to foreign warplanes over or near Libyan airspace, according to information provided by the Pentagon.

Libya has a limited air force, with about 80 percent of its aircraft “non-operational.” Libyan pilot training levels and air combat tactics “have remained far inferior to those of U.S. pilots and well-trained Middle Eastern pilots,” such as those from Egypt and Saudi Arabia, according to the Pentagon.

Officials: US Missile Attack On Libya Prepared : NPR (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=134684133&ft=1&f=)


One official said the U.S. intends to limit its involvement — at least in the initial stages — to helping protect French and other air missions by taking out Libyan air defenses.

An attack against those defenses with Navy sea-launched Tomahawk cruise missiles was planned for later Saturday, one official said. Both officials spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of military operations.

The official said that depending on how Libyan forces responded to initial intervention by the French and others, the U.S. could launch additional attacks in support of allied forces. The intention was to leave it to other nations to patrol a no-fly zone over Libya once air defenses are silenced, the official said.

It does seem a bit like everyone wants to prove themselves against a very manageable (pop & strength wise) to score "warrior" points of some sort. Diplomatic posturing at the expense of other peoples' lives whom fly the planes and those on the ground.

Libya | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/places/libya)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/19/us-libya-benghazi-jet-idUSTRE72I2XM20110319

(Reuters) - A warplane was shot down on Saturday over the Libyan city of Benghazi and an opposition activist said it was a rebel fighter jet hit by accident.

astralis
25 Apr 11,, 16:31
looks like gaddafi's men have vacated misrata. this will be an interesting dynamic if gaddafi falls. while the money is flowing into benghazi, the misrata rebels certainly will have earned a lot higher cachet in terms of actually DOING something.

----

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/25/world/africa/25libya.html?

Libyan Rebels Say They Have Control of Misurata
By ROD NORDLAND
Published: April 24, 2011

BENGHAZI, Libya — Rebel leaders said they had consolidated their control of the western city of Misurata on Sunday, taking over the last two government outposts there even as government forces continued to shell the city from its outskirts.

Libyan rebels took a break on Sunday in Misurata near a building where forces loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi were believed to be holed up. Though shelling by government forces diminished, it still killed eight and wounded 38, a rebel spokesman said.

Government spokesmen asserted that Libyan forces had withdrawn from the city voluntarily on Saturday to allow for a 48-hour cease-fire, during which tribal leaders could negotiate the rebels’ surrender.

There was no sign of a cease-fire, however, or negotiations.

In Tripoli, the capital, two bombs were seen falling in the vicinity of Colonel Qaddafi’s compound shortly after midnight and the blasts were heard a mile away, part of what Libyan officials complain is an intensifying NATO campaign in recent days. Journalists taken to the Qaddafi compound by government officials found a small complex of office buildings and a meeting space destroyed by the bomb blast, with a tangle of wires and antennae protruding from the smoldering wreckage.

A normally stoic Foreign Ministry official watching the coverage of the blasts in the lobby of the Rixos Al Nasr Tripoli Hotel exclaimed that the bombing had gone too far, and in evident exasperation warned that Libya would be justified in launching terrorist attacks against the cities of NATO members.

The shelling diminished Sunday, but it still killed eight people and wounded 38, according to a rebel spokesman in Misurata, reached by Internet telephone and identified only as Mohammed for his security. On Saturday, as government forces withdrew, he said, 36 people were killed and more than 100 were wounded.

Mohammed said that among those killed Saturday night was his father, Ali. He said his father died along with a cousin who was trying to rescue him when their neighborhood came under heavy shelling.

“The shelling was unprecedented yesterday, both in the intensity and the size of the shells,” he said Sunday, describing the bombardment as using heavy artillery, Grad missiles and Katyusha rockets.

Mohammed said he continued to work as a spokesman after burying his father on Sunday. “It is very tough, but we are in a war and it’s my duty, it’s my way of taking revenge for my father,” he said.

Rebel leaders disputed claims that forces loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi had withdrawn voluntarily, insisting that they had been defeated in battle.

Misurata, which has been besieged by government forces for the past two months, is the third largest city in Libya and the only major rebel stronghold in the west. Mohammed said the rebels had captured 180 government soldiers in the past week of fighting and were treating them as prisoners of war.

“They even left their wounded behind,” said Jalil el-Gallal, spokesman for the rebels’ de facto governing body, the Transitional National Council. “They were fleeing, not withdrawing.”

Mr. Gallal and Mohammed said rebel forces had taken complete control of the city, and accounts from journalists there generally confirmed that. “There are none and absolutely none of them in the city now,” Mohammed said of Colonel Qaddafi’s troops.

A reporter for the British newspaper The Guardian reported seeing six destroyed tanks in the vegetable market, the scene of particularly heavy fighting last week. The market was where the first American Predator strike in Libya took place on Saturday.

The Guardian also confirmed that the last two buildings held by Qaddafi forces in the city on Saturday had been cleared, and that green Libyan military uniforms had been found that were discarded by retreating troops.

A ship chartered by the International Organization for Migration arrived in Benghazi on Sunday from Misurata, carrying 995 more stranded migrant workers, most of them from Niger, as well as 17 wounded civilians.

The organization said it planned to make at least two more trips into Misurata to rescue 1,500 more migrants, many of whom have been camped near the port in hopes of fleeing. The group said that it expected that other migrants who had been hiding in parts of the city previously controlled by Colonel Qaddafi’s forces might swell that number, now that they could move safely.

In all, the migration group has gotten 4,100 migrant workers from 21 nations out of Misurata.

In Benghazi, the rebel capital, opposition leaders were upbeat about their financial situation. While they have not yet gained access to $30 billion in Libyan money in frozen accounts abroad, as some countries have suggested they should, they have found donors to tide them over.

On Sunday, officials announced that Kuwait had donated about $180 million to the governing council. And Wahid Bugaighis, the interim government’s oil minister, said that while the rebels had not been able to pump any oil from fields in eastern Libya, Qatar had stepped in with an open-ended commitment to finance their fuel and energy needs “with whatever we need during this transition period, with no fees attached.”

David D. Kirkpatrick contributed reporting from Tripoli, Libya.

citanon
25 Apr 11,, 16:56
looks like gaddafi's men have vacated misrata. this will be an interesting dynamic if gaddafi falls. while the money is flowing into benghazi, the misrata rebels certainly will have earned a lot higher cachet in terms of actually DOING something.


The rebels were on the defense. Now someone needs to put together an army that can take the fight to Tripoli. Those trainers and advisers from Britain and France have their work cut out for them, and I hope they are not serious about those guys going in unarmed.

gunnut
25 Apr 11,, 20:10
looks like gaddafi's men have vacated misrata. this will be an interesting dynamic if gaddafi falls. while the money is flowing into benghazi, the misrata rebels certainly will have earned a lot higher cachet in terms of actually DOING something.

What will be interesting is the fight for leadership after Gaddahfi is gone. Will it be the guys in Benghazi who wanted the NATO to fight their war for them? Or will it be the guys who actually fought in Misrata? And who do we support?

citanon
25 Apr 11,, 23:27
What will be interesting is the fight for leadership after Gaddahfi is gone. Will it be the guys in Benghazi who wanted the NATO to fight their war for them? Or will it be the guys who actually fought in Misrata? And who do we support?

We should support an election that is actually fair.

NUS
26 Apr 11,, 05:10
What will be interesting is the fight for leadership after Gaddahfi is gone. Will it be the guys in Benghazi who wanted the NATO to fight their war for them? Or will it be the guys who actually fought in Misrata? And who do we support?

Western strategy in it's brightest. No idea who your allies are, but bombs are flying left and right. Another country turned into hands of drug lords and terrorists.


We should support an election that is actually fair. I don't think you would support Gaddafi.

Officer of Engineers
26 Apr 11,, 05:33
Western strategy in it's brightest. No idea who your allies are, but bombs are flying left and right. Another country turned into hands of drug lords and terrorists.Qaddafy is going to die.


I don't think you would support Gaddafi.No sh!t, Sherlock.

cyppok
26 Apr 11,, 08:44
The $25 million in 'aid' is worrisome to me since it smells similar to Taliban funding practiced in Afghanistan, especially in addition to the "advisers" from Britain, U.S. etc about which we hardly hear.

US to give Libyan rebels $25 million in aid - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42679393/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/)

Libya says European military advisers for rebels will extend fighting - CSMonitor.com (http://www.csmonitor.com/World/terrorism-security/2011/0420/Libya-says-European-military-advisers-for-rebels-will-extend-fighting)

It is irrelevant what happens to Qaddafi the balance post-facto will not allow the rebels to expand simply due to division of tribal/political allegiance. They will expect too much without actual negotiations with successors eventually it will create a suspended civil war atmosphere where the country will have to decide who controls the oil flow through a showdown. If it turns out that these are fundamentalists which to some degree seems true it will not be a good outcome.

Durian10
02 May 11,, 18:28
Gaddafi is already getting desperate, he already resorted to hiring African mercenaries to do his little "bidding"

Is Libya's Gaddafi turning to foreign mercenaries? | News by Country | Reuters (http://af.reuters.com/article/drcNews/idAFLDE71N11N20110224)

snapper
30 Jun 11,, 16:01
French air drops of arms:

"France has begun parachuting arms shipments to Berber rebels fighting Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's (above) forces in the highlands south of Tripoli, the French daily Le Figaro reported on Wednesday. -- PHOTO: REUTERS

PARIS - FRANCE has begun parachuting arms shipments to Berber rebels fighting Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's forces in the highlands south of Tripoli, the French daily Le Figaro reported on Wednesday.

According to the paper, which said it had seen a secret intelligence memo and talked to well-placed officials, the air drops are designed to help rebel fighters encircle Tripoli and encourage a popular revolt in the city itself.

'If the rebels can get to the outskirts of Tripoli, the capital will take the chance to rise against Gaddafi,' said an official quoted in the report.

'The regime's mercenaries are no longer getting paid and are scarcely getting fed. There's a severe fuel shortage, the population has had enough.' French officials could not immediately confirm or deny the report to AFP.

According to Le Figaro the French arms shipments are dropped from planes in the Djebel Nafusa region, where Berber tribes have risen to join the revolt against Gaddafi's rule and seized several provincial towns.

The crates hold assault rifles, machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades, it said, and also European-made Milan anti-tank missiles, a powerful addition to the rebel arsenal that can destroy a tank or a bunker. -- AFP"

France air drops arms to Libya rebels (http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/World/Story/STIStory_685248.html)

Russia not happy with this breach of UN Security Council Resolution 1970:

Russia has strongly criticised France for dropping weapons to Libyan rebels and demanded an explanation from Paris.

"If this is confirmed, it is a very crude violation of UN Security Council resolution 1970," Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said.

The African Union has also criticised the move, saying it risks causing a "Somalia-sation" of Libya.

The French military says it has dropped arms to Berber tribal fighters in the mountains south-west of the capital.

Mr Lavrov said Russia had formally requested information from France about the move, to check that it "corresponds with reality".

Mr Lavrov is due to meet French counterpart Alain Juppe in Moscow on Friday.
'Somalia-sation'

Moscow abstained from the UN Security Council vote in March that authorised an international mission in Libya to protect civilians.

Russia and China have both criticised the Nato campaign in recent weeks, saying it had gone beyond the remit of UN resolution 1973.

Another resolution, 1970, had imposed an arms embargo on Libya.

But US and UK officials have argued that resolution 1973 could nonetheless allow weapons to be supplied to rebels fighting to topple Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi.

French officials have said the arms dropped to rebels earlier this month were supplied for the protection of civilians threatened at the time by pro-Gaddafi forces.

The French ambassador to the UN said they only included "self-defence weapons".

France is also said to have been concerned at the stalemate in the Libyan conflict, which began in February.

Libyan rebels have recently been making gains and hope to advance on Tripoli from the existing front line on the other side of the Nafusa mountains about 65km (40 miles) from the capital.

A report in Le Figaro newspaper said the French-supplied weapons included rocket launchers and anti-tank missiles, and that France had not informed its allies about the move.

Earlier, African Union chief Jean Ping listed a number of "problems" linked to France's decision to air-drop weapons to the rebels.

"The risk of civil war, risk of partition of the country, the risk of 'Somalia-sation' of the country, risk of having arms everywhere... with terrorism.

"These risks will concern the neighbouring countries," said Mr Ping, speaking at an African Union summit in Equatorial Guinea."

BBC News - Libya: Russia decries French arms drop to Libya rebels (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13979632)

Good for the Frogs!

dave lukins
30 Jun 11,, 16:26
Russia and China have both criticised the Nato campaign in recent weeks, saying it had gone beyond the remit of UN resolution 1973.

Another resolution, 1970, had imposed an arms embargo on Libya.

But US and UK officials have argued that resolution 1973 could nonetheless allow weapons to be supplied to rebels fighting to topple Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi.

Good for the Frogs!

Resolution 1970 adopted on February 26 imposed an arms embargo, sanctions, freeze of assets and a travel ban on the regime of Moamer Gaddafi and his direct family members Therefore arming the 'rebels' is not against the Resolution. A nice loophole by the Council ;)

snapper
30 Jun 11,, 17:10
Perhaps you want to point that out to his Excellency Konstantinovich Orlov at the Russian Embassy in Paris, who will doubtless have the moaning job as Lavroll is a waste of space with no stronger fabric than anything else one puts behind oneself in a small room.

dave lukins
30 Jun 11,, 23:17
Perhaps you want to point that out to his Excellency Konstantinovich Orlov at the Russian Embassy in Paris, who will doubtless have the moaning job as Lavroll is a waste of space with no stronger fabric than anything else one puts behind oneself in a small room.

I wonder if Comrade His Excellency bothered about resolutions when Russia deployed to Afghanistan in '79. :)

Double Edge
01 Jul 11,, 08:28
Resolution 1970 adopted on February 26 imposed an arms embargo, sanctions, freeze of assets and a travel ban on the regime of Moamer Gaddafi and his direct family members Therefore arming the 'rebels' is not against the Resolution. A nice loophole by the Council ;)
Wrong, the arms embargo is in place for both parties.

The way the French justified it is


The French ambassador to the UN said they only included "self-defence weapons".

French officials have said the arms dropped to rebels earlier this month were supplied for the protection of civilians threatened at the time by pro-Gaddafi forces.

and they were sneaky about it, why ?


A report in Le Figaro newspaper said the French-supplied weapons included rocket launchers and anti-tank missiles, and that France had not informed its allies about the move.

Look, in the end its about holding onto the coalition longer than Gaddafi can cling to power. Any stunts like this put that coalition at risk. They need to tread more carefully.

The goal of 1970 & 1973 is to end regime violence against the civilians, providing them with arms is a contradiction of that. yeah, self-defense might just squeeze through but its pushing it.

Doktor
01 Jul 11,, 09:21
For the sake of the argument:

UNSC 1970:

Security Council
6491st Meeting* (PM)

IN SWIFT, DECISIVE ACTION, SECURITY COUNCIL IMPOSES TOUGH MEASURES ON LIBYAN

REGIME, ADOPTING RESOLUTION 1970 IN WAKE OF CRACKDOWN ON PROTESTERS


Situation Referred to International Criminal Court;
Secretary-General Expresses Hope Message ‘Heard and Heeded’ in Libya

Deploring what it called “the gross and systematic violation of human rights” in strife-torn Libya, the Security Council this evening demanded an end to the violence and decided to refer the situation to the International Criminal Court while imposing an arms embargo on the country and a travel ban and assets freeze on the family of Muammar Al-Qadhafi and certain Government officials.

Unanimously adopting resolution 1970 (2011) under Article 41 of the Charter’s Chapter VII, the Council authorized all Member States to seize and dispose of military-related materiel banned by the text. It called on all Member States to facilitate and support the return of humanitarian agencies and make available humanitarian and related assistance in Libya and expressed its readiness to consider taking additional appropriate measures as necessary to achieve that.

Through the text, the Council also decided to establish a new committee to monitor sanctions, to liaison with Member States on compliance and to respond to violations and to designate the individuals subject to the targeted measures. Individuals and entities immediately subjected to the targeted sanctions were listed in an Annex to the resolution.

Regarding its referral of the situation in Libya since 15 February 2011 to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, the Council recognized that States not party to the Rome Statute that established the Court had no obligations to it, but urged all States and concerned organizations to cooperate fully with the Court’s Prosecutor.

The Council affirmed it would keep the actions of the Libyan authorities under continuous review and would be prepared to strengthen, modify, suspend or lift the prescribed measures in light of compliance or non-compliance with the resolution.

Following the adoption of the text, Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon welcomed the Council’s “decisive” action. “While it cannot, by itself, end the violence and the repression, it is a vital step — a clear expression of the will of a united community of nations,” he said.

He expressed hope that the message that “gross violations of basic human rights will not be tolerated and that those responsible for grave crimes will be held accountable” would be “heard and heeded” by the Libyan regime and that it would bring hope and relief to those still at risk. He looked for similar action from the General Assembly and the international community as a whole, and warned that even bolder steps might be necessary.

In their explanations of vote, Council members welcomed the unanimity of the action and expressed solidarity with the people of Libya, hoping that their “swift and decisive” intervention would help bring them relief. Many expressed hope that the resolution was a strong step in affirming the responsibility of States to protect their people as well as the legitimate role of the Council to step in when they failed to meet that responsibility.

With the referral of the situation to the International Criminal Court, France’s representative hoped the vote would open a new era in commitment to the protection of populations. Further to that goal, Brazil’s representative expressed strong reservations to the provision in the resolution allowing for exemptions from jurisdiction of nationals from non-States parties, saying those were not helpful to advance the cause of justice and accountability.

Noting that five Council members were not parties to the Rome Statute that set up the International Criminal Court, including India, that country’s representative said he would have preferred a “calibrated approach” to the issue. However, he was convinced that the referral would help to bring about the end of violence and he heeded the call of the Secretary-General on the issue, while stressing the importance of the provisions in the resolution regarding non-States parties to the Statute.

Some speakers, such as the representatives of Lebanon and the Russian Federation, stressed the importance of affirming the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Libya. The Chinese representative said he had supported the resolution taking into account the special circumstances in Libya.

Speaking last, Libya’s representative said that the Council’s action represented moral support for his people and was a signal that an end must be put to the fascist regime in Tripoli. He launched an appeal to all the officers of the Libyan armed forces to support their own people, and welcomed the referral to the International Criminal Court, as well as the decision not to impose sanctions on those who might abandon Mr. Al-Qadhafi in the end.

Also speaking this evening were the representatives of the United Kingdom, South Africa, Nigeria, United States, Colombia, Portugal, Germany, and Bosnia and Herzegovina and Gabon.

The meeting was opened at 8:10 p.m. and closed at 8:55 p.m.

Resolution

The full text of resolution 1970 (2011) reads as follows:

“The Security Council,

“Expressing grave concern at the situation in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya and condemning the violence and use of force against civilians,

“Deploring the gross and systematic violation of human rights, including the repression of peaceful demonstrators, expressing deep concern at the deaths of civilians, and rejecting unequivocally the incitement to hostility and violence against the civilian population made from the highest level of the Libyan government,

“Welcoming the condemnation by the Arab League, the African Union, and the Secretary General of the Organization of the Islamic Conference of the serious violations of human rights and international humanitarian law that are being committed in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,

“Taking note of the letter to the President of the Security Council from the Permanent Representative of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya dated 26 February 2011,

“Welcoming the Human Rights Council resolution A/HRC/S-15/2 of 25 February 2011, including the decision to urgently dispatch an independent international commission of inquiry to investigate all alleged violations of international human rights law in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, to establish the facts and circumstances of such violations and of the crimes perpetrated, and where possible identify those responsible,

“Considering that the widespread and systematic attacks currently taking place in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya against the civilian population may amount to crimes against humanity,

“Expressing concern at the plight of refugees forced to flee the violence in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,

“Expressing concern also at the reports of shortages of medical supplies to treat the wounded,

“Recalling the Libyan authorities’ responsibility to protect its population,

“Underlining the need to respect the freedoms of peaceful assembly and of expression, including freedom of the media,

“Stressing the need to hold to account those responsible for attacks, including by forces under their control, on civilians,

“Recalling article 16 of the Rome Statute under which no investigation or prosecution may be commenced or proceeded with by the International Criminal Court for a period of 12 months after a Security Council request to that effect,

“Expressing concern for the safety of foreign nationals and their rights in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,

“Reaffirming its strong commitment to the sovereignty, independence, territorial integrity and national unity of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya.

“Mindful of its primary responsibility for the maintenance of international peace and security under the Charter of the United Nations,

“Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations, and taking measures under its Article 41,

“1. Demands an immediate end to the violence and calls for steps to fulfil the legitimate demands of the population;

“2. Urges the Libyan authorities to:

(a) Act with the utmost restraint, respect human rights and international humanitarian law, and allow immediate access for international human rights monitors;

(b) Ensure the safety of all foreign nationals and their assets and facilitate the departure of those wishing to leave the country;

(c) Ensure the safe passage of humanitarian and medical supplies, and humanitarian agencies and workers, into the country; and

(d) Immediately lift restrictions on all forms of media;

“3. Requests all Member States, to the extent possible, to cooperate in the evacuation of those foreign nationals wishing to leave the country;

ICC referral

“4. Decides to refer the situation in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya since 15 February 2011 to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court;

“5. Decides that the Libyan authorities shall cooperate fully with and provide any necessary assistance to the Court and the Prosecutor pursuant to this resolution and, while recognizing that States not party to the Rome Statute have no obligation under the Statute, urges all States and concerned regional and other international organizations to cooperate fully with the Court and the Prosecutor;

“6. Decides that nationals, current or former officials or personnel from a State outside the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya which is not a party to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court shall be subject to the exclusive jurisdiction of that State for all alleged acts or omissions arising out of or related to operations in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya established or authorized by the Council, unless such exclusive jurisdiction has been expressly waived by the State;

“7. Invites the Prosecutor to address the Security Council within two months of the adoption of this resolution and every six months thereafter on actions taken pursuant to this resolution;

“8. Recognizes that none of the expenses incurred in connection with the referral, including expenses related to investigations or prosecutions in connection with that referral, shall be borne by the United Nations and that such costs shall be borne by the parties to the Rome Statute and those States that wish to contribute voluntarily;

Arms embargo

“9. Decides that all Member States shall immediately take the necessary measures to prevent the direct or indirect supply, sale or transfer to the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, from or through their territories or by their nationals, or using their flag vessels or aircraft, of arms and related materiel of all types, including weapons and ammunition, military vehicles and equipment, paramilitary equipment, and spare parts for the aforementioned, and technical assistance, training, financial or other assistance, related to military activities or the provision, maintenance or use of any arms and related materiel, including the provision of armed mercenary personnel whether or not originating in their territories, and decides further that this measure shall not apply to:

(a) Supplies of non-lethal military equipment intended solely for humanitarian or protective use, and related technical assistance or training, as approved in advance by the Committee established pursuant to paragraph 24 below;

(b) Protective clothing, including flak jackets and military helmets, temporarily exported to the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya by United Nations personnel, representatives of the media and humanitarian and development works and associated personnel, for their personal use only; or

(c) Other sales or supply of arms and related materiel, or provision of assistance or personnel, as approved in advance by the Committee;

“10. Decides that the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya shall cease the export of all arms and related materiel and that all Member States shall prohibit the procurement of such items from the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya by their nationals, or using their flagged vessels or aircraft, and whether or not originating in the territory of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya;

“11. Calls upon all States, in particular States neighbouring the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, to inspect, in accordance with their national authorities and legislation and consistent with international law, in particular the law of the sea and relevant international civil aviation agreements, all cargo to and from the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, in their territory, including seaports and airports, if the State concerned has information that provides reasonable grounds to believe the cargo contains items the supply, sale, transfer, or export of which is prohibited by paragraphs 9 or 10 of this resolution for the purpose of ensuring strict implementation of those provisions;

“12. Decides to authorize all Member States to, and that all Member States shall, upon discovery of items prohibited by paragraph 9 or 10 of this resolution, seize and dispose (such as through destruction, rendering inoperable, storage or transferring to a State other than the originating or destination States for disposal) items the supply, sale, transfer or export of which is prohibited by paragraph 9 or 10 of this resolution and decides further that all Member States shall cooperate in such efforts;

“13. Requires any Member State when it undertakes an inspection pursuant to paragraph 11 above, to submit promptly an initial written report to the Committee containing, in particular, explanation of the grounds for the inspections, the results of such inspections, and whether or not cooperation was provided, and, if prohibited items for transfer are found, further requires such Member States to submit to the Committee, at a later stage, a subsequent written report containing relevant details on the inspection, seizure, and disposal, and relevant details of the transfer, including a description of the items, their origin and intended destination, if this information is not in the initial report;

“14. Encourages Member States to take steps to strongly discourage their nationals from travelling to the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya to participate in activities on behalf of the Libyan authorities that could reasonably contribute to the violation of human rights;

Travel ban

“15. Decides that all Member States shall take the necessary measures to prevent the entry into or transit through their territories of individuals listed in Annex I of this resolution or designated by the Committee established pursuant to paragraph 24 below, provided that nothing in this paragraph shall oblige a State to refuse its own nationals entry into its territory;

“16. Decides that the measures imposed by paragraph 15 above shall not apply:

(a) Where the Committee determines on a case-by-case basis that such travel is justified on the grounds of humanitarian need, including religious obligation;

(b) Where entry or transit is necessary for the fulfilment of a judicial process;

(c) Where the Committee determines on a case-by-case basis that an exemption would further the objectives of peace and national reconciliation in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya and stability in the region; or

(d) Where a State determines on a case-by-case basis that such entry or transit is required to advance peace and stability in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya and the States subsequently notifies the Committee within forty-eight hours after making such a determination;

Asset freeze

“17. Decides that all Member States shall freeze without delay all funds, other financial assets and economic resources which are on their territories, which are owned or controlled, directly or indirectly, by the individuals or entities listed in Annex II of this resolution or designated by the Committee established pursuant to paragraph 24 below, or by individuals or entities acting on their behalf or at their direction, or by entities owned or controlled by them, and decides further that all Member States shall ensure that any funds, financial assets or economic resources are prevented from being made available by their nationals or by any individuals or entities within their territories, to or for the benefit of the individuals or entities listed in Annex II of this resolution or individuals designated by the Committee;

“18. Expresses its intention to ensure that assets frozen pursuant to paragraph 17 shall at a later stage be made available to and for the benefit of the people of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya;

“19. Decides that the measures imposed by paragraph 17 above do not apply to funds, other financial assets or economic resources that have been determined by relevant Member States:

(a) To be necessary for basic expenses, including payment for foodstuffs, rent or mortgage, medicines and medical treatment, taxes, insurance premiums, and public utility charges or exclusively for payment of reasonable professional fees and reimbursement of incurred expenses associated with the provision of legal services in accordance with national laws, or fees or service charges, in accordance with national laws, for routine holding or maintenance of frozen funds, other financial assets and economic resources, after notification by the relevant State to the Committee of the intention to authorize, where appropriate, access to such funds, other financial assets or economic resources and in the absence of a negative decision by the Committee within five working days of such notification;

(b) To be necessary for extraordinary expenses, provided that such determination has been notified by the relevant State or Member States to the Committee and has been approved by the Committee; or

(c) To be the subject of a judicial, administrative or arbitral lien or judgment, in which case the funds, other financial assets and economic resources may be used to satisfy that lien or judgment provided that the lien or judgment was entered into prior to the date of the present resolution, is not for the benefit of a person or entity designated pursuant to paragraph 17 above, and has been notified by the relevant State or Member States to the Committee;

“20. Decides that Member States may permit the addition to the accounts frozen pursuant to the provisions of paragraph 17 above of interests or other earnings due on those accounts or payments due under contracts, agreements or obligations that arose prior to the date on which those accounts became subject to the provisions of this resolution, provided that any such interest, other earnings and payments continue to be subject to these provisions and are frozen;

“21. Decides that the measures in paragraph 17 above shall not prevent a designated person or entity from making payment due under a contract entered into prior to the listing of such a person or entity, provided that the relevant States have determined that the payment is not directly or indirectly received by a person or entity designated pursuant to paragraph 17 above, and after notification by the relevant States to the Committee of the intention to make or receive such payments or to authorize, where appropriate, the unfreezing of funds, other financial assets or economic resources for this purpose, 10 working days prior to such authorization;

Designation criteria

“22. Decides that the measures contained in paragraphs 15 and 17 shall apply to the individuals and entities designated by the Committee, pursuant to paragraph 24 (b) and (c), respectively;

(a) Involved in or complicit in ordering, controlling, or otherwise directing, the commission of serious human rights abuses against persons in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, including by being involved in or complicit in planning, commanding, ordering or conducting attacks, in violation of international law, including aerial bombardments, on civilian populations and facilities; or

(b) Acting for or on behalf of or at the direction of individuals or entities identified in subparagraph (a).

“23. Strongly encourages Member States to submit to the Committee names of individuals who meet the criteria set out in paragraph 22 above;

New Sanctions Committee

“24. Decides to establish, in accordance with rule 28 of its provisional rules of procedure, a Committee of the Security Council consisting of all the members of the Council (herein "the Committee"), to undertake to following tasks:

(a) To monitor implementation of the measures imposed in paragraphs 9, 10, 15, and 17;

(b) To designate those individuals subject to the measures imposed by paragraphs 15 and to consider requests for exemptions in accordance with paragraph 16 above;

(c) To designate those individuals subject to the measures imposed by paragraph 17 above and to consider requests for exemptions in accordance with paragraphs 19 and 20 above;

(d) To establish such guidelines as may be necessary to facilitate the implementation of the measures imposed above;

(e) To report within thirty days to the Security Council on its work for the first report and thereafter to report as deemed necessary by the Committee;

(f) To encourage a dialogue between the Committee and interested Member States, in particular those in the region, including by inviting representatives of such States to meet with the Committee to discuss implementation of the measures;

(g) To seek from all States whatever information it may consider useful regarding the actions taken by them to implement effectively the measures imposed above;

(h) To examine and take appropriate action on information regarding alleged violations or non-compliance with the measures contained in this resolution;

“25. Calls upon all Member States to report to the Committee within 120 days of the adoption of this resolution on the steps they have taken with a view to implementing effectively paragraphs 9, 10, 15 and 17 above;

Humanitarian assistance

“26. Calls upon all Member States, working together and acting in cooperation with the Secretary General, to facilitate and support the return of humanitarian agencies and make available humanitarian and related assistance in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, and requests the States concerned to keep the Security Council regularly informed on the progress of actions undertaken pursuant to this paragraph, and expresses its readiness to consider taking additional appropriate measures, as necessary, to achieve this;

Commitment to review

“27. Affirms that it shall keep the Libyan authorities’ actions under continuous review and that it shall be prepared to review the appropriateness of the measures contained in this resolution, including the strengthening, modification, suspension or lifting of the measures, as may be needed at any time in light of the Libyan authorities’ compliance with relevant provisions of this resolution;

“28. Decides to remain actively seized of the matter.”

Annex I

Travel ban

1. Al-Baghdadi, Dr Abdulqader Mohammed
Passport number: B010574. Date of birth: 01/07/1950.
Head of the Liaison Office of the Revolutionary Committees. Revolutionary Committees involved in violence against demonstrators.

2. Dibri, Abdulqader Yusef
Date of birth: 1946. Place of birth: Houn, Libya.
Head of Muammar Qadhafi’s personal security. Responsibility for regime security. History of directing violence against dissidents.
3. Dorda, Abu Zayd Umar

Director, External Security Organisation. Regime loyalist. Head of external intelligence agency.
4. Jabir, Major General Abu Bakr Yunis
Date of birth: 1952. Place of birth: Jalo, Libya.
Defence Minister. Overall responsibility for actions of armed forces.

5. Matuq, Matuq Mohammed
Date of birth: 1956. Place of birth: Khoms.
Secretary for Utilities. Senior member of regime. Involvement with Revolutionary Committees. Past history of involvement in suppression of dissent and violence.

6. Qadhaf Al-dam, Sayyid Mohammed
Date of birth: 1948. Place of birth: Sirte, Libya.
Cousin of Muammar Qadhafi. In the 1980s, Sayyid was involved in the dissident assassination campaign and allegedly responsible for several deaths in Europe. He is also thought to have been involved in arms procurement.

7. Qadhafi, Aisha Muammar
Date of birth: 1978. Place of birth: Tripoli, Libya.
Daughter of Muammar Qadhafi. Closeness of association with regime.

8. Qadhafi, Hannibal Muammar
Passport number: B/002210. Date of birth: 20/09/1975. Place of birth: Tripoli, Libya. Son of Muammar Qadhafi. Closeness of association with regime.

9. Qadhafi, Khamis Muammar
Date of birth: 1978. Place of birth: Tripoli, Libya.
Son of Muammar Qadhafi. Closeness of association with regime. Command of military units involved in repression of demonstrations.

10. Qadhafi, Mohammed Muammar
Date of birth: 1970. Place of birth: Tripoli, Libya.
Son of Muammar Qadhafi. Closeness of association with regime.

11. Qadhafi, Muammar Mohammed Abu Minyar
Date of birth: 1942. Place of birth: Sirte, Libya.
Leader of the Revolution, Supreme Commander of Armed Forces. Responsibility for ordering repression of demonstrations, human rights abuses.

12. Qadhafi, Mutassim
Date of birth: 1976. Place of birth: Tripoli, Libya.
National Security Adviser. Son of Muammar Qadhafi. Closeness of association with regime.

13. Qadhafi, Saadi
Passport number: 014797. Date of birth: 25/05/1973. Place of birth: Tripoli, Libya.
Commander Special Forces. Son of Muammar Qadhafi. Closeness of association with regime. Command of military units involved in repression of demonstrations.

14. Qadhafi, Saif al-Arab
Date of birth: 1982. Place of birth: Tripoli, Libya.
Son of Muammar Qadhafi. Closeness of association with regime.

15. Qadhafi, Saif al-Islam
Passport number: B014995. Date of birth: 25/06/1972. Place of birth: Tripoli, Libya.
Director, Qadhafi Foundation. Son of Muammar Qadhafi. Closeness of association with regime. Inflammatory public statements encouraging violence against demonstrators.

16. Al-Senussi, Colonel Abdullah
Date of birth: 1949. Place of birth: Sudan.
Director Military Intelligence. Military Intelligence involvement in suppression of demonstrations. Past history includes suspicion of involvement in Abu Selim prison massacre. Convicted in absentia for bombing of UTA flight. Brother-in-law of Muammar Qadhafi.

Annex II

Asset freeze

1. Qadhafi, Aisha Muammar
Date of birth: 1978. Place of birth: Tripoli, Libya.
Daughter of Muammar Qadhafi. Closeness of association with regime.

2. Qadhafi, Hannibal Muammar
Passport number: B/002210. Date of birth: 20/09/1975. Place of birth: Tripoli, Libya. Son of Muammar Qadhafi. Closeness of association with regime.

3. Qadhafi, Khamis Muammar
Date of birth: 1978. Place of birth: Tripoli, Libya.
Son of Muammar Qadhafi. Closeness of association with regime. Command of military units involved in repression of demonstrations.

4. Qadhafi, Muammar Mohammed Abu Minyar
Date of birth: 1942. Place of birth: Sirte, Libya.
Leader of the Revolution, Supreme Commander of Armed Forces. Responsibility for ordering repression of demonstrations, human rights abuses.

5. Qadhafi, Mutassim
Date of birth: 1976. Place of birth: Tripoli, Libya.
National Security Adviser. Son of Muammar Qadhafi. Closeness of association with regime.

6. Qadhafi, Saif al-Islam
Passport number: B014995. Date of birth: 25/06/1972. Place of birth: Tripoli, Libya.
Director, Qadhafi Foundation. Son of Muammar Qadhafi. Closeness of association with regime. Inflammatory public statements encouraging violence against demonstrators.

Statements

MARK LYALL GRANT (United Kingdom) welcomed the adoption, noting that his country was gravely concerned over the violence and had condemned the actions of the Libyan leadership. The text, he said, was a powerful signal of the determination of the international community to stand with the Libyan people as they charted their future.

HARDEEP SINGH PURI ( India) hoped that calm and stability were restored without further violence and called for measures to ensure the safety of the Indian population in Libya, as well as those attempting to leave. Noting that five Council members were not parties to the Rome Statute, including India, he said he would have preferred a “calibrated approach” to the issue. However, he was convinced that the referral of the situation to the International Criminal Court would help to bring about the end of violence, and he heeded the call of the Secretary-General on the issue. He, therefore, had voted in favour of the resolution, while stressing the importance of its provisions regarding non-States parties to the Rome Statute.

BASO SANGQU (South Africa) said his country was deeply concerned about the situation in Libya. The resolution adopted by the Security Council sent a clear and unambiguous message to Libya to stop the indiscriminate use of force in that country, and the measures it contained could contribute to the long-term objective of bringing peace and stability to the nation.

U. JOY OGWU (Nigeria) said that she was deeply concerned about the inflammatory rhetoric and loss of life occurring in Libya. As many had been calling for swift action, it was fitting that the Council had taken decisive action today. Nigeria supported the resolution and its “comprehensive” targeted sanctions. It was convinced that the text would deter individuals from supporting the regime and would provide for the protection of civilians and respect for international humanitarian and human rights law. The delegation believed that the resolution would swiftly address the ongoing violence.

SUSAN RICE ( United States) welcomed the fact that the Council had spoken with one voice this evening, in a clear warning to the Libyan Government that it must stop the killing. Calling the text a strong resolution, she said that this was about people’s ability to shape their own future. Their rights were not negotiable and could not be denied.

NAWAF SALAM (Lebanon), noting the denunciation by the League of Arab States of the crimes committed against Libyan civilians, said he concurred with its opinion, as well as its support for the right of Libyan citizens to express their opinion. That was why he had voted in favour of the resolution. He stressed the importance of reaffirming the territorial unity of Libya and expressed deep sorrow over the lives lost.

VITALY CHURKIN ( Russian Federation) said he supported the resolution because of his country’s deep concern over the situation, its sorrow over the lives lost and its condemnation of the Libyan Government’s actions. He opposed counterproductive interventions, but he said that the purpose of the resolution was to end the violence and to preserve the united sovereign State of Libya with its territorial integrity. Security for foreign citizens, including Russian citizens, must be ensured.

LI BAODONG ( China) said that China was very much concerned about the situation in Libya. The greatest urgency was to cease the violence, to end the bloodshed and civilian casualties, and to resolve the crisis through peaceful means, such as dialogue. The safety and interest of the foreign nationals in Libya must be assured. Taking into account the special circumstances in Libya, the Chinese delegation had voted in favour of the resolution.

NÉSTOR OSORIO (Colombia) said the Colombian Government was pleased with the resolution, which had emerged as a result of a “timely process of consultation”, in tune with the sense of urgency demanded by the international community. The resolution sent the “direct and solid message” that the violence in Libya must cease and that those responsible for it must answer for their crimes. Moreover, the decision to refer the situation to the International Criminal Court was an appropriate one. Colombia clearly rejected the calls for violence from official sectors in Libya, and condemned the violation of basic rights and freedoms of that country’s citizens, including the right to life and to peaceful assembly. Colombia had co-sponsored yesterday’s Human Rights Council resolution on the situation. Libya must find a way to respond legitimately to its people’s demands, and the international community must remain united to bring an end to the violence there.

JOSÉ FILIPE MORAES CABRAL (Portugal) welcomed the unanimous adoption of the resolution, which he said sent a clear, united message against the crimes being committed against civilians in Libya. He expressed deep concern over the plight of refugees and other humanitarian issues, including the safety of foreigners. Impunity would not be tolerated and serious crimes would be prosecuted.

GÉRARD ARAUD (France) welcomed the fact that the Council had unanimously answered yesterday’s appeal by the Libyan representative. The referral of the matter to the International Criminal Court might ensure that those responsible for the crimes were brought to justice. The Court had once again showed the rationale for its existence. The resolution recalled the accountability of each State for the protection of its population and the role of the international community when that responsibility was not met. He hoped the vote would open a new era for the international community as a whole.

PETER WITTIG ( Germany) welcomed what he called the Council’s swift, decisive, united and strong message that the violation of the rights of the Libyan people would not be tolerated. The referral to the International Criminal Court demonstrated the determination not to allow impunity. It should be clear to all that the Council would continue to follow the situation closely.

IVAN BARBALIĆ (Bosnia and Herzegovina) said that in the current situation time was of the essence, and that the Security Council had to react “unanimously and urgently” to end the violence and prevent further escalation of the situation in Libya. His delegation had closely followed the popular movement in Libya, and was appalled at the “unacceptable level of violence” targeted at civilians there. Bosnia and Herzegovina condemned in the strongest possible terms the violence and loss of life, and therefore fully supported the decision to refer those responsible to the International Criminal Court. He called for an immediate stop to the violence. Worried about the outflow of refugees and the high number of internally displaced persons there, he called on international organizations to provide humanitarian aid and services to those affected by the violence.

ALFRED ALEXIS MOUNGARA MOUSSOTSI (Gabon) said that the situation existing in Libya over the last two weeks required an answer and a “strong, clear message” from the Security Council. Gabon had decided to add its voice to the resolution, not only to end the violence, but also to advise the Libyan regime of the consequences of its actions. Gabon was also ready to support other measures that the Council might adopt in support of the Libyan people and their right to life and free speech.

MARIA LUIZA RIBEIRO VIOTTI ( Brazil) said that her delegation was deeply disturbed by the dramatic situation in Libya. The measures adopted today were meant to halt the violence, ensure the protection of civilians and promote respect for international law. The resolution was a “clear signal” of the Council’s readiness to respond to the situation in a manner consistent with its responsibilities. Brazil was a long-standing supporter of the integrity and universalization of the Rome Statute, and opposed the exemption from jurisdiction of nationals of those countries not parties to it. Brazil, therefore, expressed its strong reservation to the resolution’s operative paragraph 6, and reiterated its firm conviction that initiatives aimed at establishing those exemptions were not helpful to advance the cause of justice and accountability.

IBRAHIM DABBASHI (Libya) expressed his condolences to the martyrs who had fallen under the repression of the Libyan regime, and thanked Council Members for their unanimous action, which represented moral support for his people, who were resisting the attacks. The resolution would be a signal that an end must be put to the fascist regime in Tripoli.

He launched an appeal to all the officers of the Libyan armed forces to support their own people and renounce their support for Muammar Al-Qadhafi, whom he called “criminal” and whom he said was prepared to go to extremes to keep up the repression. He appealed also to the Libyan people to keep up their struggle to restore the State to the people. He welcomed, in addition, the referral of the situation to the International Criminal Court and the fact that sanctions were not being imposed on those who might abandon Mr. Al-Qadhafi in the end.

BAN KI-MOON, United Nations Secretary-General, welcomed the resolution. “While it cannot, by itself, end the violence and the repression, it is a vital step — a clear expression of the will of a united community of nations,” he said. Calling the events in Libya “clear-cut violations of all norms governing international behaviour and serious transgressions of international human rights and humanitarian law”, he said it was of great importance that the Council was determined to reach consensus and uphold its responsibilities.

He hoped that the strong message that “gross violations of basic human rights will not be tolerated and that those responsible for grave crimes will be held accountable” would be heeded by the regime in Libya and that it would bring hope and relief to those still at risk. The sanctions were a necessary step to speed the transition to a new system of governance that had the people’s consent and participation.

He pledged to monitor the situation closely and remain in touch with world and regional leaders to support swift and concrete action. Expressing solidarity with the Libyan people in coping with the humanitarian impacts, he hoped that the new future for which they yearned would soon be theirs. Commending the Council for its decisive action, he looked for similar determination from the General Assembly and the Human Rights Council.

“Today’s measures are tough. In the coming days even bolder action may be necessary,” he said.

* *** *

__________

* The 6490th Meeting was closed.
** Reissued to revise second paragraph.

UNSC 1973:


The Security Council,

Recalling its resolution 1970 (2011) of 26 February 2011,

Deploring the failure of the Libyan authorities to comply with resolution 1970 (2011),

Expressing grave concern at the deteriorating situation, the escalation of violence, and the heavy civilian casualties,

Reiterating the responsibility of the Libyan authorities to protect the Libyan population and reaffirming that parties to armed conflicts bear the primary responsibility to take all feasible steps to ensure the protection of civilians,

Condemning the gross and systematic violation of human rights, including arbitrary detentions, enforced disappearances, torture and summary executions,

Further condemning acts of violence and intimidation committed by the Libyan authorities against journalists, media professionals and associated personnel and urging these authorities to comply with their obligations under international humanitarian law as outlined in resolution 1738 (2006),

Considering that the widespread and systematic attacks currently taking place in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya against the civilian population may amount to crimes against humanity,

Recalling paragraph 26 of resolution 1970 (2011) in which the Council expressed its readiness to consider taking additional appropriate measures, as necessary, to facilitate and support the return of humanitarian agencies and make available humanitarian and related assistance in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,

Expressing its determination to ensure the protection of civilians and civilian populated areas and the rapid and unimpeded passage of humanitarian assistance and the safety of humanitarian personnel,

Recalling the condemnation by the League of Arab States, the African Union, and the Secretary General of the Organization of the Islamic Conference of the serious violations of human rights and international humanitarian law that have been and are being committed in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,

Taking note of the final communiqué of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference of 8 March 2011, and the communiqué of the Peace and Security Council of the African Union of 10 March 2011 which established an ad hoc High Level Committee on Libya,

Taking note also of the decision of the Council of the League of Arab States of 12 March 2011 to call for the imposition of a no-fly zone on Libyan military aviation, and to establish safe areas in places exposed to shelling as a precautionary measure that allows the protection of the Libyan people and foreign nationals residing in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,

Taking note further of the Secretary-General's call on 16 March 2011 for an immediate cease-fire,

Recalling its decision to refer the situation in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya since 15 February 2011 to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, and stressing that those responsible for or complicit in attacks targeting the civilian population, including aerial and naval attacks, must be held to account,

Reiterating its concern at the plight of refugees and foreign workers forced to flee the violence in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, welcoming the response of neighbouring States, in particular Tunisia and Egypt, to address the needs of those refugees and foreign workers, and calling on the international community to support those efforts,

Deploring the continuing use of mercenaries by the Libyan authorities,

Considering that the establishment of a ban on all flights in the airspace of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya constitutes an important element for the protection of civilians as well as the safety of the delivery of humanitarian assistance and a decisive step for the cessation of hostilities in Libya,

Expressing concern also for the safety of foreign nationals and their rights in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,

Welcoming the appointment by the Secretary General of his Special Envoy to Libya, Mr Abdel-Elah Mohamed Al-Khatib and supporting his efforts to find a sustainable and peaceful solution to the crisis in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,

Reaffirming its strong commitment to the sovereignty, independence, territorial integrity and national unity of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,

Determining that the situation in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya continues to constitute a threat to international peace and security,

Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations,

1. Demands the immediate establishment of a cease-fire and a complete end to violence and all attacks against, and abuses of, civilians;

2. Stresses the need to intensify efforts to find a solution to the crisis which responds to the legitimate demands of the Libyan people and notes the decisions of the Secretary-General to send his Special Envoy to Libya and of the Peace and Security Council of the African Union to send its ad hoc High Level Committee to Libya with the aim of facilitating dialogue to lead to the political reforms necessary to find a peaceful and sustainable solution;

3. Demands that the Libyan authorities comply with their obligations under international law, including international humanitarian law, human rights and refugee law and take all measures to protect civilians and meet their basic needs, and to ensure the rapid and unimpeded passage of humanitarian assistance;

Protection of civilians

4. Authorizes Member States that have notified the Secretary-General, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, and acting in cooperation with the Secretary-General, to take all necessary measures, notwithstanding paragraph 9 of resolution 1970 (2011), to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, including Benghazi, while excluding a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory, and requests the Member States concerned to inform the Secretary-General immediately of the measures they take pursuant to the authorization conferred by this paragraph which shall be immediately reported to the Security Council;

5. Recognizes the important role of the League of Arab States in matters relating to the maintenance of international peace and security in the region, and bearing in mind Chapter VIII of the Charter of the United Nations, requests the Member States of the League of Arab States to cooperate with other Member States in the implementation of paragraph 4;

No fly zone

6. Decides to establish a ban on all flights in the airspace of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya in order to help protect civilians;

7. Decides further that the ban imposed by paragraph 6 shall not apply to flights whose sole purpose is humanitarian, such as delivering or facilitating the delivery of assistance, including medical supplies, food, humanitarian workers and related assistance, or evacuating foreign nationals from the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, nor shall it apply to flights authorised by paragraphs 4 or 8, nor other flights which are deemed necessary by States acting under the authorisation conferred in paragraph 8 to be for the benefit of the Libyan people, and that these flights shall be coordinated with any mechanism established under paragraph 8;

8. Authorizes Member States that have notified the Secretary-General and the Secretary-General of the League of Arab States, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, to take all necessary measures to enforce compliance with the ban on flights imposed by paragraph 6 above, as necessary, and requests the States concerned in cooperation with the League of Arab States to coordinate closely with the Secretary General on the measures they are taking to implement this ban, including by establishing an appropriate mechanism for implementing the provisions of paragraphs 6 and 7 above,

9. Calls upon all Member States, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, to provide assistance, including any necessary over-flight approvals, for the purposes of implementing paragraphs 4, 6, 7 and 8 above;

10. Requests the Member States concerned to coordinate closely with each other and the Secretary-General on the measures they are taking to implement paragraphs 4, 6, 7 and 8 above, including practical measures for the monitoring and approval of authorised humanitarian or evacuation flights;

11. Decides that the Member States concerned shall inform the Secretary-General and the Secretary-General of the League of Arab States immediately of measures taken in exercise of the authority conferred by paragraph 8 above, including to supply a concept of operations;

12. Requests the Secretary-General to inform the Council immediately of any actions taken by the Member States concerned in exercise of the authority conferred by paragraph 8 above and to report to the Council within 7 days and every month thereafter on the implementation of this resolution, including information on any violations of the flight ban imposed by paragraph 6 above;

Enforcement of the arms embargo

13. Decides that paragraph 11 of resolution 1970 (2011) shall be replaced by the following paragraph : "Calls upon all Member States, in particular States of the region, acting nationally or through regional organisations or arrangements, in order to ensure strict implementation of the arms embargo established by paragraphs 9 and 10 of resolution 1970 (2011), to inspect in their territory, including seaports and airports, and on the high seas, vessels and aircraft bound to or from the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, if the State concerned has information that provides reasonable grounds to believe that the cargo contains items the supply, sale, transfer or export of which is prohibited by paragraphs 9 or 10 of resolution 1970 (2011) as modified by this resolution, including the provision of armed mercenary personnel, calls upon all flag States of such vessels and aircraft to cooperate with such inspections and authorises Member States to use all measures commensurate to the specific circumstances to carry out such inspections";

14. Requests Member States which are taking action under paragraph 13 above on the high seas to coordinate closely with each other and the Secretary-General and further requests the States concerned to inform the Secretary-General and the Committee established pursuant to paragraph 24 of resolution 1970 (2011) ("the Committee") immediately of measures taken in the exercise of the authority conferred by paragraph 13 above;

15. Requires any Member State whether acting nationally or through regional organisations or arrangements, when it undertakes an inspection pursuant to paragraph 13 above, to submit promptly an initial written report to the Committee containing, in particular, explanation of the grounds for the inspection, the results of such inspection, and whether or not cooperation was provided, and, if prohibited items for transfer are found, further requires such Member States to submit to the Committee, at a later stage, a subsequent written report containing relevant details on the inspection, seizure, and disposal, and relevant details of the transfer, including a description of the items, their origin and intended destination, if this information is not in the initial report;

16. Deplores the continuing flows of mercenaries into the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya and calls upon all Member States to comply strictly with their obligations under paragraph 9 of resolution 1970 (2011) to prevent the provision of armed mercenary personnel to the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya;

Ban on flights

17. Decides that all States shall deny permission to any aircraft registered in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya or owned or operated by Libyan nationals or companies to take off from, land in or overfly their territory unless the particular flight has been approved in advance by the Committee, or in the case of an emergency landing;

18. Decides that all States shall deny permission to any aircraft to take off from, land in or overfly their territory, if they have information that provides reasonable grounds to believe that the aircraft contains items the supply, sale, transfer, or export of which is prohibited by paragraphs 9 and 10 of resolution 1970 (2011) as modified by this resolution, including the provision of armed mercenary personnel, except in the case of an emergency landing;

Asset freeze

19. Decides that the asset freeze imposed by paragraph 17, 19, 20 and 21 of resolution 1970 (2011) shall apply to all funds, other financial assets and economic resources which are on their territories, which are owned or controlled, directly or indirectly, by the Libyan authorities, as designated by the Committee, or by individuals or entities acting on their behalf or at their direction, or by entities owned or controlled by them, as designated by the Committee, and decides further that all States shall ensure that any funds, financial assets or economic resources are prevented from being made available by their nationals or by any individuals or entities within their territories, to or for the benefit of the Libyan authorities, as designated by the Committee, or individuals or entities acting on their behalf or at their direction, or entities owned or controlled by them, as designated by the Committee, and directs the Committee to designate such Libyan authorities, individuals or entities within 30 days of the date of the adoption of this resolution and as appropriate thereafter;

20. Affirms its determination to ensure that assets frozen pursuant to paragraph 17 of resolution 1970 (2011) shall, at a later stage, as soon as possible be made available to and for the benefit of the people of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya;

21. Decides that all States shall require their nationals, persons subject to their jurisdiction and firms incorporated in their territory or subject to their jurisdiction to exercise vigilance when doing business with entities incorporated in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya or subject to its jurisdiction, and any individuals or entities acting on their behalf or at their direction, and entities owned or controlled by them, if the States have information that provides reasonable grounds to believe that such business could contribute to violence and use of force against civilians;

Designations

22. Decides that the individuals listed in Annex I shall be subject to the travel restrictions imposed in paragraphs 15 and 16 of resolution 1970 (2011), and decides further that the individuals and entities listed in Annex II shall be subject to the asset freeze imposed in paragraphs 17, 19, 20 and 21 of resolution 1970 (2011);

23. Decides that the measures specified in paragraphs 15, 16, 17, 19, 20 and 21 of resolution 1970 (2011) shall apply also to individuals and entities determined by the Council or the Committee to have violated the provisions of resolution 1970 (2011), particularly paragraphs 9 and 10 thereof, or to have assisted others in doing so;

Panel of experts

24. Requests the Secretary-General to create for an initial period of one year, in consultation with the Committee, a group of up to eight experts ("Panel of Experts"), under the direction of the Committee to carry out the following tasks:

(a) Assist the Committee in carrying out its mandate as specified in paragraph 24 of resolution 1970 (2011) and this resolution;

(b) Gather, examine and analyse information from States, relevant United Nations bodies, regional organisations and other interested parties regarding the implementation of the measures decided in resolution 1970 (2011) and this resolution, in particular incidents of non-compliance;

(c) Make recommendations on actions the Council, or the Committee or State, may consider to improve implementation of the relevant measures;

(d) Provide to the Council an interim report on its work no later than 90 days after the Panel's appointment, and a final report to the Council no later than 30 days prior to the termination of its mandate with its findings and recommendations;

25. Urges all States, relevant United Nations bodies and other interested parties, to cooperate fully with the Committee and the Panel of Experts, in particular by supplying any information at their disposal on the implementation of the measures decided in resolution 1970 (2011) and this resolution, in particular incidents of non-compliance;

26. Decides that the mandate of the Committee as set out in paragraph 24 of resolution 1970 (2011) shall also apply to the measures decided in this resolution;

27. Decides that all States, including the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, shall take the necessary measures to ensure that no claim shall lie at the instance of the Libyan authorities, or of any person or body in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, or of any person claiming through or for the benefit of any such person or body, in connection with any contract or other transaction where its performance was affected by reason of the measures taken by the Security Council in resolution 1970 (2011), this resolution and related resolutions;

28. Reaffirms its intention to keep the actions of the Libyan authorities under continuous review and underlines its readiness to review at any time the measures imposed by this resolution and resolution 1970 (2011), including by strengthening, suspending or lifting those measures, as appropriate, based on compliance by the Libyan authorities with this resolution and resolution 1970 (2011).

29. Decides to remain actively seized of the matter.

Now, can someone find the line that allows anyone to bring arms into Libya?

dave lukins
01 Jul 11,, 11:11
Arms embargo

“9. Decides that all Member States shall immediately take the necessary measures to prevent the direct or indirect supply, sale or transfer to the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, from or through their territories or by their nationals, or using their flag vessels or aircraft, of arms and related materiel of all types, including weapons and ammunition, military vehicles and equipment, paramilitary equipment, and spare parts for the aforementioned, and technical assistance, training, financial or other assistance, related to military activities or the provision, maintenance or use of any arms and related materiel, including the provision of armed mercenary personnel whether or not originating in their territories





The use of aircraft by the allies is technically providing assistance so providing arms to the unarmed is also assistance. Or shall we just sit on our laurels and watch a turkey shoot. It's OK for the suited to sit behind their desks and say "no assistance". This Libyan saga was to last 'weeks' at a cost of a couple of £million and the British public were quite OK about that. It has now cost £200million with no end in sight and questions are being asked how can we afford another war and at the same time close schools and hospitals because of lack of government funds?

dave lukins
01 Jul 11,, 11:21
The goal of 1970 & 1973 is to end regime violence against the civilians, providing them with arms is a contradiction of that. yeah, self-defense might just squeeze through but its pushing it.

Not supplying self defence is as bad as watching a massacre and doing nothing about it and as the UN are past masters at that they should leave it to the Military Professionals to sort the solution out.

Doktor
01 Jul 11,, 11:43
Arms embargo

“9. Decides that all Member States shall immediately take the necessary measures to prevent the direct or indirect supply, sale or transfer to the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, from or through their territories or by their nationals, or using their flag vessels or aircraft, of arms and related materiel of all types, including weapons and ammunition, military vehicles and equipment, paramilitary equipment, and spare parts for the aforementioned, and technical assistance, training, financial or other assistance, related to military activities or the provision, maintenance or use of any arms and related materiel, including the provision of armed mercenary personnel whether or not originating in their territories


The use of aircraft by the allies is technically providing assistance so providing arms to the unarmed is also assistance. Or shall we just sit on our laurels and watch a turkey shoot. It's OK for the suited to sit behind their desks and say "no assistance". This Libyan saga was to last 'weeks' at a cost of a couple of £million and the British public were quite OK about that. It has now cost £200million with no end in sight and questions are being asked how can we afford another war and at the same time close schools and hospitals because of lack of government funds?

I have issues with NATO taking sides. See the "rebels" are shooting civilians, too. Noone is bombing them for that.

As for schools closure, I thought teacher were on strike, not there is no money for the schools.

Doktor
01 Jul 11,, 11:45
Not supplying self defence is as bad as watching a massacre and doing nothing about it and as the UN are past masters at that they should leave it to the Military Professionals to sort the solution out.

Well, UK and France are in SC and wrote those resolutions. And BTW bombing Gadaffi is hardly sitting and watching. Too bad UK and French hammers are not as big and heavy as the US one, but that's life :(

dave lukins
01 Jul 11,, 12:24
I have issues with NATO taking sides. See the "rebels" are shooting civilians, too. Noone is bombing them for that.

As for schools closure, I thought teacher were on strike, not there is no money for the schools.

The teachers and others are on strike because the Government want them to work until they are 66, work longer hours, pay more into their pension for a less pay out.

Doktor
01 Jul 11,, 12:28
Ah the teachers are the same here and we haven't bombed a country like erm, ever!

dave lukins
01 Jul 11,, 12:30
Well, UK and France are in SC and wrote those resolutions. And BTW bombing Gadaffi is hardly sitting and watching. Too bad UK and French hammers are not as big and heavy as the US one, but that's life :(

They are using hammers to crack a nut. Bombing is not doing the job so what is the next move..another resolution to put boots on the ground? ;)

Doktor
01 Jul 11,, 12:39
They are using hammers to crack a nut. Bombing is not doing the job so what is the next move..another resolution to put boots on the ground? ;)

Personally, I would go through all the satellite imagery I have and make all the MIs sweat their a$$es to learn Gadaffi's whereabout then send SAS and GIGN(?) to take care. Can't think of cheaper solution. Tho, since its' execution depends on the intelligence I doubt how quick this would happen :)

Anyway 100 days and counting since operation Libya started

Doktor
01 Jul 11,, 12:42
NATO and Libya: 100 Days, but any progress?
(http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/07/01/155562.html)

Misguided air strikes, civilian casualties, a desperate Libyan ruler still fighting for power with an International Criminal Court indictment issued against him. These are some of the highlights that color the 100 days since NATO began air strikes against Muammar Qaddafi’s forces.

In February, Colonel Qaddafi swore to “fight until his last drop of blood” for his role as leader amidst mass protests calling for his removal. An element of what has become known as the Arab Spring, these protests called for political freedom and economic opportunities to be encouraged by their non-traditional government.

On Thursday, the leader’s daughter, Aicha Qaddafi said, that to end the spilling of Libyan blood, “We are ready to ally ourselves with the devil, with the rebel army” during a French network television interview. This would prove a large step forward if sincere.

Also on Thursday, France admitted to supplying arms to Libyan rebels, propelling the support beyond the agreement in UN Security Council Resolution 1973. France issued statements claiming that the munitions drops were necessary to allow civilians to defend themselves, a step beyond the initial humanitarian food, water and medical supply drops.

To understand the current situation, it is useful to take a look at Mr. Qaddafi’s ruling history.

In his 1975 doctrinal Green Book, which doubles as the country’s constitution, Mr. Qaddafi outlined his beliefs on how a socialist society should be run. Paradoxically, statements such as the following appear to justify his dictatorial status by dissolving all typical government bodies by defining democracy quite uniquely: “No representation of the people—representation is a falsehood. The mere existence of parliaments underlies the absence of the people, for democracy can only exist with the presence of the people and not in the presence of representatives of the people.”

Mr. Qaddafi’s ideology was rooted in convincing his people, often through violent intimidation, that through mere existence that they were being represented in the government. However, that was entirely untrue in his Libya, a nation riddled with corruption and lacking proper institutions.

Another excerpt from his Green Book sheds light on the economic struggle of Libyans: “Labor in return for wages is virtually the same as enslaving a human being.”

Essentially, it appears as though he is defending his right to live lavishly while not wanting to “enslave” others through employment initiatives. “Paradoxical” is just one of the words used by political scientists when describing Mr. Qaddafi’s ruling style.

Responding to Colonel Qaddafi’s violent reaction to protests in mid-February, opposition groups were forced to fight back with limited weapons or training resulting in mass bloodshed and devastation.

Submission following the beginning of the protests does not appear to have been an option in the minds of the Libyan people.

Responding to the devastation, some say because of the massive oil and gas fields in Libya, NATO launched airstrikes targeting Mr. Qaddafi and his allies beginning March 2011. The decision followed the passage of a UN Security Council resolution supporting military action against the leader committing violent acts against his people.

The sentiments caused by NATO’s move to get involved in Libya were two-fold.

First, a leader was/is brutally repressing his people who are calling for freedom and representation – two things that ring close to NATO member countries’ hearts.

Conversely, the question has to be asked as to why NATO forces, the Americans in particular, are delving into another potentially long battle after the hurdles and frustrations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

With regards to energy supply disruptions, Europeans faced more energy shocks than did Americans, relying on Libyan light sweet crude to provide significant volumes to its refineries. Although Saudi Arabia increased its production, the unique, slightly higher quality of Libyan light sweet crude meant it was easier to refine into everyday products such as petrol. Europeans have also turned to Russia to supplement the loss for now.

Italy consumed about 32 percent of Europe’s 85 percent supply of Libyan oil exports; Germany percent, Italy, percent. The remainder of Libya’s oil exports travelled east through the Suez canal, comprising 3 percent of Chinese oil imports, amongst others.

In Libya today, it is clear that Mr. Qaddafi will not relinquish his seat of power to the opposition forces. While he could seek safe haven in allied nations, such as North Korea, Cuba or Venezuela, it appears that Mr. Qaddafi will indeed stay and fight until the very last drop of his and his allies’ blood.

That makes NATO’s job now extremely difficult. A few supportive air strikes have turned into what looks like it will be a long- term commitment, a manhunt to “cut the head off the snake.” As long as Mr. Qaddafi is living in Libya, NATO forces must now continue to support the Libyan people. Sending in ground troops has been discussed though is almost entirely impossible given the military obligations in Iraq and Afghanistan of NATO Allies, and American forces in particular.

Not just for the returned oil supply but also for the humanity of the Libyan people, efforts in institution building must be taking place concurrently with the battle for freedom.

The Libyan Interim National Transitional Council (NTC) was established on March 5 in Benghazi by oppositionists to Mr. Qaddafi’s continued rule. The NTC aims to establish peace and security within Libya, avoiding the potential divide of the nation as a means of solving the current crisis.

The Executive Board of the NTC is led by the chairman, Dr. Mahmoud Jibril, a scholar in strategic planning and decision making from the University of Pittsburgh (Pennsylvania). Board members include Vice Chairman, Dr. Ali Al-Issawi, who holds his doctorate in privitization. Both Drs. Jibril and Al-Issawi served in Mr. Qaddafi’s Libyan government, the former as head of the National Economic Development Board from 2007-10, the latter most recently as Libyan Ambassador to India, a post he held until the uprisings.

Fourteen international governments (out of 192 member states of the United Nations), including the UAE, Qatar, Australia, France and Germany, have recognized the official representation of the Libyan people by the TNC. Conspicuously missing from the list is the United States of America.

Following a meeting between Mr. Jibril and US National Security Adviser Tom Donilon in May, Mr. Donilon stated that the United States acknowledged the TNC as “a legitimate and credible interlocutor of the Libyan people.” However, the US did not offer full official recognition explaining that the responsibility and ability to fully legitimize Libyan representatives laid in the hands of the Libyan people, not in those of foreign governments.

It is important to note that NATO countries had no explicit role in establishing the TNC; however they have been attempting to mediate negotiations between Mr. Qaddafi’s representatives and the TNC. Until now, there have been no fruits to that labor. But Aicha Qaddafi’s recent statement, cited earlier, may indicate there is some hope to the negotiations.

While oil remains on global minds as they reflect on NATO’s military action in Libya, it is important to look beyond external powers and peer into the significant progress Libyans themselves have made in the face of brutal and merciless attacks from its leader.

Indeed, it is important to support the Libyan people in their struggle though it is also important for NATO and its member countries to have a long, hard look at the past 100 days and reassess whether their contributions truly appear on the greater landscape of progress.

(Mary E. Stonaker is an independent scholar, most recently with the Middle East Institute, National University of Singapore. She can be reached at marystonaker@gmail.com)

Double Edge
01 Jul 11,, 14:09
Not supplying self defence is as bad as watching a massacre and doing nothing about it and as the UN are past masters at that they should leave it to the Military Professionals to sort the solution out.
And that makes for a nice slippery slope doesn't it. I think you've got a coalition to keep happy. They signed on to those resolutions under certain terms & conditions. You start playing fast & loose with the T's & C's and you will be spending more time justifying your actions to your partners rather than doing your job.

Hague was asked a while back to place your attorney generals counsel on the matter in the commons library so it could be better understood but to date it has not appeared. No mention in the commons either over this issue this week as yet, lets see if it gets mentioned next week and what the reply is.

We already discussed this in the NFZ thread a few months back, it was kato i believe that made the point clear.

dave lukins
01 Jul 11,, 14:39
DE as we know the wheels of Parliament run painfully slow and some politicians even slower. We are fighting to remove Qaddafi from power and are p***y-footing over it. They need to get all the 'paperwork' in place before they decide to remove any further despots in the future. I visualize people sitting around a table saying "shall we - shan't we" People are dying every day so let's sort it out. If we don't like the slippery slope then let's get out. I don't want anymore of our Servicemen, in whatever theatre of war it happens to be, being brought home under a flag while politicians argue about words on a piece of paper. Ask people on the street why we are attacking Libya and the answer is 'to (get rid) remove Qaddafi' asked 'why' and they haven't a clue.

Double Edge
01 Jul 11,, 15:47
DE as we know the wheels of Parliament run painfully slow and some politicians even slower.
Actually dave, i've got the opposite impression reading your commons transcripts. Not to mention the speed in which they got that resolution, what was it ? under three weeks for France+UK to get 13 other nations to agree or close to it to go from 1970 to 1973.

Once a week, they'll have a good long discussion about the arab situation. It's been pretty good to keep up with developments. I certainly expect this point to be brought up next week.

The best part is its free of spin, straight from the horse's mouth. Want to know what Britian thinks about any matter ? this is ground zero.

Its very easy for news anchors, you could say its their job, to create talking points whilst not having to haggle with others nations for cooperation. You can spin anything.


We are fighting to remove Qaddafi from power and are p***y-footing over it.
No you're not, you've got him in a vice grip and you've followed the resolution in spirit and almost to the letter. That's pretty good going.

You have to keep an eye on the future with present actions. If there's going to be any more resolutions concerning other countries in the area. You need 9 ayes. Everybody's watching how this project is going, you don't want to unnecessarily up the asking price for an abstention by BRIC. You don't want to make this look like yet another western imperialist project.


They need to get all the 'paperwork' in place before they decide to remove any further despots in the future.
If we are to live in a more multi-polar world then you are going to have to work for consensus.


I visualize people sitting around a table saying "shall we - shan't we" People are dying every day so let's sort it out.
You see something wrong here ? Currently it isn't about dying its about running short on medical supplies & cash for salaries.


If we don't like the slippery slope then let's get out. I don't want anymore of our Servicemen, in whatever theatre of war it happens to be, being brought home under a flag while politicians argue about words on a piece of paper. Ask people on the street why we are attacking Libya and the answer is 'to (get rid) remove Qaddafi' asked 'why' and they haven't a clue.
You have no boots on the ground so the chances of anyone coming back under a flag are remote :)

As to the why its a combination of national interest and humanitarian. The arab world is your hinterland, you have an interest in things not blowing up there.

NUS
18 Jul 11,, 08:12
Treachery and Hypocrisy in Libya

Dov S. Zakheim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dov_S._Zakheim)
July 15, 2011

It should come as no surprise that the Libyan rebels have committed atrocities in towns they have captured. The Libyan civil war is nothing more than a tribal blood feud, stoked by hatreds, grievances and desires for revenge that go back decades if not longer. In such circumstances it is a fool's errand to determine which of the warring parties has right on its side. That the United States and NATO chose to interject themselves into this conflict is simply incomprehensible.

NATO's Libyan adventure is proving costly not merely in terms of human and material losses. Qaddafi’s successful achievement of what is effectively a stalemate to the conflict has seriously damaged the alliance's credibility. NATO has projected an image of disunity and inefficiency at best, incompetence at worst. It is hard to imagine that this was the alliance that faced down the Soviet Union.

Moreover, to many in the Arab and Muslim world, the Western attack on yet another Arab state smacks of nothing less than treachery and hypocrisy. After all, Qaddafi had cooperated with the West in the "war on terror." For that Washington, Paris and London rewarded him with drone attacks on his family. On the other hand, Bashar al-Assad's support for Hezbollah has earned him a free pass.

Finally, to underscore the fact that no good Libyan deed has gone unpunished, the Western attack has come only a few years after Qaddafi chose to terminate his attempt to obtain nuclear weapons. Iran and North Korea will surely take note. "What if," pundits in Pyongyang and Tehran surely are asking,"Qaddafi had possessed 'the bomb'? Would the West have dared to attack him?" What if, indeed.

NATO, aided, abetted and cheered on by Washington, clearly has achieved little and lost much. Surely it is time to terminate this mindless, costly and counterproductive exercise.

NUS
29 Jul 11,, 08:38
"most Libyans are strongly pro-Gaddafi" Evidence pls.

I can't provide you any reliable statistical research. For some strage reason, statistical services are not working at Libya at the moment. So i will provide witness reports.

Libya: Talks Between Gaddafi And Rebels, As Well As US, After Four Months Of Nato Bombing Campaign | World News | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16033578)
Stuart Ramsay, chief correspondent, in Tripoli


In recent days I have been to a handful of western cities and towns where rallies of thousands have gathered to show their support for Gaddafi.
In some, they have taken to the streets brandishing a huge collection of weapons clearly handed out to volunteers by the government.

What is important is that the many people I have chatted to are absolute in that support.

The rallies are organized - but the sentiment, in my opinion, is real.

It does not mean that everyone in this part of the country supports Gaddafi, but a lot certainly do.

Skipping ritual part about poor rebels being outgunned, this report looks like a balanced view.

Aslo, CNN:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw5Nvtj-Zl0&feature=player_embedded

And one more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILo7STMlsw8&feature=player_embedded

kato
17 Aug 11,, 15:02
Yesterday the very Scud base in Syrt that the RAF claimed destroyed along with 30-40 Scuds and 20 Frogs located there back in May suddenly fires off a Scud. While the coalition claims it's curtailing government troops and supply movements too. Also, at the target the US claims the missile was fired at the RAF claims to have destroyed a number of government-affiliated technicals in close air support only three days ago. Oh, and the RAF has also resumed firing Stormshadows in long-range strike sorties at Sabha last week - which was pretty much discounted from all action four months ago.

I'm starting to be reminded of Yugoslavia.

Doktor
17 Aug 11,, 15:06
The smart bombs got dumb? lol

kato
17 Aug 11,, 15:08
The RAF has published a guncam vid and detailed info of that strike against the site at Syrt [here (http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/launcher-strike-09052011)].

snapper
18 Aug 11,, 05:11
Capable was scrapped due to cuts... only Agile and Adaptable left.

devgupt
21 Aug 11,, 17:03
Libyan rebels capture major military base - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44218013/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/?gt1=43001)

The endgame is in sight

kato
21 Aug 11,, 19:39
NATO is a bit more reserved and states that they "can't corroborate rebel claims of having approached Tripolis". NATO also claims that the rebel front line has effectively dissolved and turned into localized pockets btw.

That there are clashes in the suburbs is nothing new; these have been going on since February. What's new is the massive losses the rebels are taking there, with three-digit figures in e.g. Tadjura.

devgupt
21 Aug 11,, 23:31
Libyan rebels enter Tripoli, Gadhafi's sons held - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44218013/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/)


Sidiq al-Kibir, the rebel leadership council's representative for the capital Tripoli, confirmed the arrest of Seif al-Islam to the AP but did not give any further details.

This is indeed the endgame.

dave lukins
22 Aug 11,, 00:34
Libyan rebels enter Tripoli, Gaddafi's sons held - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44218013/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/)



This is indeed the endgame.

I expected Gaddafi's 'loyal' troops to switch sides before the rebels got too close.

Doktor
22 Aug 11,, 00:40
6 months with superior AF clearing the routes and navy blocking the ports. Not bad, eh?

How crazy that Colonel is, wont be surprised if whole Tripoli goes skyhigh.

tankie
22 Aug 11,, 01:35
6 months with superior AF clearing the routes and navy blocking the ports. Not bad, eh?

How crazy that Colonel is, wont be surprised if whole Tripoli goes skyhigh.

I recall some years back reading that he was never a Colonel , just self imposed , maybe then he should have been a General ,,,like idi am,out

Doktor
22 Aug 11,, 01:46
IIRC, he was at military academy in Libya and was later in UK for training.

He could have ranked himself marshal and would still be crazy ;)

S2
22 Aug 11,, 03:56
Well, I can't wait to see the craziness and retribution ensue when whomever starts trying to form some government. The factions crawling out of the walls, all claiming to have been the indispensible cog that held this together and demanding their just due, will be mind-boggling.

Of course the U.N. (meaning America, Canada and Europe) will be footing the bill over the next five years for Libya's "reconstruction".

Officer of Engineers
22 Aug 11,, 04:12
We won't get Lockerbies. That alone is worth the effort.

snapper
22 Aug 11,, 05:17
I imagine Mr Assad is somewhat worried.

667medic
22 Aug 11,, 05:22
We won't get Lockerbies. That alone is worth the effort.

Forgive me Sir, if you think I am rude but shouldn't you also nuke Saudi Arabia and Pakistan to prevent 9/11 in future....

Officer of Engineers
22 Aug 11,, 05:30
Forgive me Sir, if you think I am rude but shouldn't you also nuke Saudi Arabia and Pakistan to prevent 9/11 in future....If there was any evidence that Fiad or Musharaff gave the order, then both Riyard and Islamabad would be growing mushroom clouds.

The same cannot be said of Lockerbie.

S2
22 Aug 11,, 05:31
"Forgive me Sir, if you think I am rude but shouldn't you also nuke Saudi Arabia and Pakistan to prevent 9/11 in future...."

How might Canada accomplish that?;)

Stitch
22 Aug 11,, 05:32
They finally did it. A month or two ago, things weren't looking so great for the rebels, but I guess they managed to finally pull it together. Yes, the so-called "loyalists" should start deserting Gadhafi any minute now, just like rats leaving a sinking ship . . . . .

667medic
22 Aug 11,, 05:38
They finally did it. A month or two ago, things weren't looking so great for the rebels, but I guess they managed to finally pull it together. Yes, the so-called "loyalists" should start deserting Gadhafi any minute now, just like rats leaving a sinking ship . . . . .

Sir, you can gloat all you want but Gaddhafi had balls of steel for sure. And I am quite sure that the sudden turn of events involved paying huge bribes to the so called "loyalists"....

Officer of Engineers
22 Aug 11,, 05:44
Sir, you can gloat all you want but Gaddhafi had balls of steel for sure.Horse puckey! If he had balls of steel, he would have lead the situation instead of letting the situation dictate him. Deng Xia Peng got balls. Daffy Duck does not.


And I am quite sure that the sudden turn of events involved paying huge bribes to the so called "loyalists"....In short, Daffy Duck got outbid, why?

Officer of Engineers
22 Aug 11,, 05:45
How might Canada accomplish that?;)By send SWSNBN to Libya.

kato
22 Aug 11,, 07:52
We won't get Lockerbies.
Considering half the rebel movement is composed of Al Quaeda (and, come on, everyone knows that) i wouldn't count on that...

Doktor
22 Aug 11,, 09:10
kato. this means you know who these guys are? I don't. :biggrin:

kato
22 Aug 11,, 10:19
@doktor

Is there any news outlet that hasn't reported on that in the past 6 months?

Libya: the West and al-Qaeda on the same side - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8391632/Libya-the-West-and-al-Qaeda-on-the-same-side.html)
Al Qaeda offers aid to rebels in Libya - Washington Times (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/feb/24/al-qaeda-offers-aid-to-rebels-in-libya/)
Al Qaeda Presence Detected In Libya (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/29/al-qaeda-libya-_n_842009.html)
'Flickers' of al Qaeda in Libyan opposition, U.S. NATO leader says - CNN (http://articles.cnn.com/2011-03-29/us/libya.opposition.analysis_1_james-stavridis-moammar-gadhafi-al-qaeda-or-one?_s=PM:US)
Al Qaida commander backs Libyan rebels in ... JPost - Middle East (http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=212003)
In Libya, rebels plan for post-Gaddafi era - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle-east/in-libya-rebels-plan-for-post-gaddafi-era/2011/08/18/gIQALIP0PJ_story.html)
Sidelined Qaeda awaits ‘spring’ harvest | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online (http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/International/19-Aug-2011/Sidelined-Qaeda-awaits-spring-harvest)
Shifting loyalties among Libya (http://www.france24.com/en/20110805-libya-uprising-islamists-rebels-ntc-gaddafi-fighters-transition-council-shifting-allies)

etc pp

Officer of Engineers
22 Aug 11,, 10:55
Considering half the rebel movement is composed of Al Quaeda (and, come on, everyone knows that) i wouldn't count on that...I would. At least for the next 10 years. They would be too busy consolidating their rule than to think of anything else.

Doktor
22 Aug 11,, 12:06
@doktor

Is there any news outlet that hasn't reported on that in the past 6 months?

Libya: the West and al-Qaeda on the same side - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8391632/Libya-the-West-and-al-Qaeda-on-the-same-side.html)
Al Qaeda offers aid to rebels in Libya - Washington Times (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/feb/24/al-qaeda-offers-aid-to-rebels-in-libya/)
Al Qaeda Presence Detected In Libya (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/29/al-qaeda-libya-_n_842009.html)
'Flickers' of al Qaeda in Libyan opposition, U.S. NATO leader says - CNN (http://articles.cnn.com/2011-03-29/us/libya.opposition.analysis_1_james-stavridis-moammar-gadhafi-al-qaeda-or-one?_s=PM:US)
Al Qaida commander backs Libyan rebels in ... JPost - Middle East (http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=212003)
In Libya, rebels plan for post-Gaddafi era - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle-east/in-libya-rebels-plan-for-post-gaddafi-era/2011/08/18/gIQALIP0PJ_story.html)
Sidelined Qaeda awaits ‘spring’ harvest | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online (http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/International/19-Aug-2011/Sidelined-Qaeda-awaits-spring-harvest)
Shifting loyalties among Libya (http://www.france24.com/en/20110805-libya-uprising-islamists-rebels-ntc-gaddafi-fighters-transition-council-shifting-allies)

etc pp

Then again, who are they? What are their positions? And finally if they are AQ, why all the west is recognizing them?

AQ Flickers is what they are described in those news reports. But then again, really, who are these people?

Doktor
22 Aug 11,, 12:06
@doktor

Is there any news outlet that hasn't reported on that in the past 6 months?

Libya: the West and al-Qaeda on the same side - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8391632/Libya-the-West-and-al-Qaeda-on-the-same-side.html)
Al Qaeda offers aid to rebels in Libya - Washington Times (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/feb/24/al-qaeda-offers-aid-to-rebels-in-libya/)
Al Qaeda Presence Detected In Libya (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/29/al-qaeda-libya-_n_842009.html)
'Flickers' of al Qaeda in Libyan opposition, U.S. NATO leader says - CNN (http://articles.cnn.com/2011-03-29/us/libya.opposition.analysis_1_james-stavridis-moammar-gadhafi-al-qaeda-or-one?_s=PM:US)
Al Qaida commander backs Libyan rebels in ... JPost - Middle East (http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=212003)
In Libya, rebels plan for post-Gaddafi era - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle-east/in-libya-rebels-plan-for-post-gaddafi-era/2011/08/18/gIQALIP0PJ_story.html)
Sidelined Qaeda awaits ‘spring’ harvest | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online (http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/International/19-Aug-2011/Sidelined-Qaeda-awaits-spring-harvest)
Shifting loyalties among Libya (http://www.france24.com/en/20110805-libya-uprising-islamists-rebels-ntc-gaddafi-fighters-transition-council-shifting-allies)

etc pp

Then again, who are they? What are their positions? And finally if they are AQ, why all the west is recognizing them?

AQ Flickers is what they are described in those news reports. But then again, really, who are these people?

Bigfella
22 Aug 11,, 13:43
I would. At least for the next 10 years. They would be too busy consolidating their rule than to think of anything else.

Given the elaborate patchwork of tribal alliances & the balance between a large metropolis, smaller cities & the rural population and some ethnic issues into the pot and the people in charge will be a bit busy. AQ could certainly flourish if the place descends into chaos, but they will have to play local politics rather better than they did in Iraq. Interestng times.

snapper
22 Aug 11,, 13:56
It is fortunate that this success has been achieved now as next month the resolution was due to be reviewed, not to mention (as noted elsewhere) withdrawal of Charles De Gaulle.

On a completely different matter how do Arabic Ladies make that high pitched wailing noise that sounds a bit 'lululululululul....' and what does it mean?

tankie
22 Aug 11,, 17:36
.

On a completely different matter how do Arabic Ladies make that high pitched wailing noise that sounds a bit 'lululululululul....' and what does it mean?

Sounds like a Q for the Col as he is an avid listener and he studies the amazing vocal prowess of a certain Canook songstress whom he is addicted to . :wors:

citanon
22 Aug 11,, 18:17
NATO and US involvement in the final push to Tripoli:

Allies guided rebel ‘pincer’ assault on Tripoli - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/allies-guided-rebel-pincer-assault-on-tripoli/2011/08/22/gIQAeAMaWJ_story_1.html)


Allies guided rebel ‘pincer’ assault on Tripoli
By Karen DeYoung and Greg Miller, Monday, August 22, 9:48 AM

The rapid weekend advance of Libyan rebel troops into Tripoli was the result of an opposition strategy put in place two weeks ago with the advice of British, French and Qatari special forces on the ground, along with an earlier decision by the Obama administration to share additional intelligence on the positions of Libyan government forces, according to NATO and U.S. military and intelligence officials.

The strategy included coordinated rebel attacks on three critical areas: the oil port of Brega to the east of the capital, the refinery city of Zawiyah to the west and the strategic southern approach to Tripoli at Gharyan.

The objective, a senior NATO official said Monday, was to create a “pincer” that would drive forces loyal to Moammar Gaddafi back from all directions to protect Tripoli. In the process, government troops would provide clear targets for NATO airstrikes and the roads would clear for the rebel advance.

“The targeting shifted toward Tripoli over the last four or five days as the regime forces moved back . . . and the target set [in the capital] became larger,” said the official, one of several NATO and U.S. officials who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive intelligence matters. NATO said air strikes had hit 22 targets in and around Tripoli on Saturday.

Although Gaddafi issued several calls for the leaders of Libya’s tribes to defend the capital, his precise whereabouts are unknown. “We believe he’s still in the country,” said Marine Col. David Lapan, a Pentagon spokesman. “We don’t have any information that he’s left the country.”

Even before the pincer movement began, the United States had begun to provide its allies with expanded imagery from satellites and armed drones on the locations and capabilities of government forces.

At the same time, CIA operatives inside the country and intercepted communications within the government provided a deeper understanding of just how badly Gaddafi’s command structure had crumbled, U.S. officials said.

The collapse could be traced to “two things,” said a high-ranking U.S. military official. ”One was the knowledge that we had on the disintegration of the command structure of the Gaddafi forces.”

The rebels were emboldened by that information, officials said, gaining confidence that the war was turning in their direction.

“The second thing, in the lead-up into Tripoli we really provided a lot of imagery on the locations of the Gaddafi forces,” the official said. “So as the rebels were getting into their positions when they came around the south and up into the west side of Tripoli, we had a good sense of where [Gaddafi’s] forces were at.”

That intelligence flow had been obstructed for most of the early months of the conflict, officials said, in part because of restrictions on the amount of information that could be given to NATO allies.

But the administration reached a decision about six weeks ago that enabled the sharing of more sensitive materials with NATO, including imagery and signals intercepts that could be provided to British and French special operations troops on the ground in addition to pilots in the air.

The NATO allies and “particularly the Qataris” on the ground were “working very closely” with the rebels’ military and political command “to help them think this one through and also provide them with the capabilities,” the NATO official said.

NATO, whose United Nations mandate is limited to the protection of Libyan civilians, has been anxious not to be seen acting as the rebel air force in a coordinated strategy. But the NATO official acknowledged that “the effect of what we were doing was not dissimilar. What we saw was sort of the collapse of the regime and its capability to direct its forces.”

The speed of the collapse appeared to take aback even those who had planned it. After withdrawing from Zawiyah and other towns, government forces seemed to melt away as the rebels approached Tripoli. One commander confronting rebel troops in Tripoli stood aside and invited them in, according to a report reaching NATO.

U.S. intelligence agencies have not been able to corroborate independently claims by the rebels that they have captured three of Gaddafi’s sons, but noted that the International Criminal Court has confirmed that one of them, Saif al-Islam, is in opposition custody.

“There is still some fighting in the capital, but for the most part the Libyan regime forces seem to have just not engaged,” a U.S. intelligence official said. “Somehow this seems to have literally passed them by.”

The remaining questions, officials said, are Qaddafi’s location and the extent to which he retains any ability to control or communicate with his troops.

Even as rebels seized control of large swaths of Tripoli, the U.S. military official said it was unclear how long the fighting in the capital would continue, and expressed concern that loyalists could employ terror tactics in a final urban battle.

“The challenge now is that you’ve got a city of 2 million, and we’re into urban warfare,” the official said.

But the dramatically improved rebel position could enable the United States to expand its diplomatic and intelligence presence inside the country.

“You’re going to see a larger agency footprint,” as well as an expanded presence by the National Security Agency, which monitors e-mail and cellphone traffic, the military official said. “This won’t happen this week, but it will happen in the next month.”

Staff writer Craig Whitlock contributed to this report.

© The Washington Post Company

tankie
22 Aug 11,, 18:47
Gaddafi ducks 3 sons are in custody , but still no sign of pops , and on the news right now they are saying no evidence he has done a runner . Dont ya just love rumours huh :slap:

Double Edge
22 Aug 11,, 19:24
I recall some years back reading that he was never a Colonel , just self imposed , maybe then he should have been a General ,,,like idi am,out
Idi was more than just a general, his titles in addition to were...

"His Excellency, President for Life, Field Marshal Al Hadji Doctor Idi Amin Dada, VC, DSO, MC, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Seas, CBE (Conqueror of the British Empire) in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular and uncrowned King of Scotland"

Other leaders seems so ordinary in comparison :biggrin:


On a completely different matter how do Arabic Ladies make that high pitched wailing noise that sounds a bit 'lululululululul....' and what does it mean?
An expression of joy or celebration, very common at weddings.

Ululation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ululation)

tankie
22 Aug 11,, 19:49
Idi was more than just a general, his titles in addition to were...

"His Excellency, President for Life, Field Marshal Al Hadji Doctor Idi Amin Dada, VC, DSO, MC, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Seas, CBE (Conqueror of the British Empire) in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular and uncrowned King of Scotland"

Other leaders seems so ordinary in comparison :biggrin:

Jeezzzzzzzz ,,warra guy :wors:

kato
22 Aug 11,, 22:12
ABC reports scores of rebel troops are leaving the area after having looted ammunition.

Guess someone's not in the mood for being the target of urban guerilla combat at night?

kato
22 Aug 11,, 22:17
NATO and US involvement in the final push to Tripoli:
NATO barely did any CAS over the weekend. 10 CAS-type targets destroyed, 10 strikes on command centers, barracks, depots etc - and two dozen strikes against air-defense systems in Tripolis, including no less than four radar systems.

dave lukins
22 Aug 11,, 23:11
"His Excellency, President for Life, Field Marshal Al Hadji Doctor Idi Amin Dada, VC, DSO, MC, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Seas, CBE (Conqueror of the British Empire) in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular and uncrowned King of Scotland"

Lord of the Beast I can understand but King of Scotland is a tad too far. He didn't have the knees for tartan :)

Doktor
22 Aug 11,, 23:29
Lord of the Beast I can understand but King of Scotland is a tad too far. He didn't have the knees for tartan :)
That's why he is uncrowned :biggrin:

Doktor
23 Aug 11,, 00:30
Now one of the Gadaffi's sons escaped? These rebels are just great, gotta love 'em.

kato
23 Aug 11,, 02:35
No, two of the three that were captured escaped actually.

Mohammed's escape was acknowledged by the NTC leadership couple hours ago, while Saif appeared on live television around two hours ago himself. Saif's escape is rumoured to actually have been loyalist troops attacking rebel positions in a targeted surgical strike to free him.

Saadi is still in the rebels' hands. Doubt the loyalists will do much about freeing him for now, he's rather whimsical and useless in the grander scheme...

Mihais
23 Aug 11,, 05:27
I'm still waiting for the Arab army that can actually do minimum preparations for defense of a city.6 months and tens of thousands of civilian supporters is more than one can ask.But to a point is expected.These guys didn't had the common sense not to get in this situation.To have the common sense to prepare their way out may be a bit too much to ask.

Officer of Engineers
23 Aug 11,, 05:42
There is a lesson here. It is a matter of will. Daffy started off with superior forces (relatively) and superior will ... all except Misrata. Misrata proved his failure. Superior will can overcome superior odds.

zraver
23 Aug 11,, 06:43
On a completely different matter how do Arabic Ladies make that high pitched wailing noise that sounds a bit 'lululululululul....' and what does it mean?

Well if it holds true for Arabia and North Africa as it does in A-stan then according to Kipling it means "here we come with the knives".

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier of the Queen!

snapper
23 Aug 11,, 08:58
There is a lesson here. It is a matter of will. Daffy started off with superior forces (relatively) and superior will ... all except Misrata. Misrata proved his failure. Superior will can overcome superior odds.

Sir, while I agree with you concerning the importance of Misrata I would also stress the importance of the advance of the Berbers from the Nafusa Mountains. It was this advance, partly supplied by French and Quatari weapons drops, that cut Tripoli off from the south (Garyan) and finaly cut off the route to west (Zawiyah).

From the reports I have read the Misrata fighters have only just begun to arrive in Tripoli whereas the fighters from the West started entering on Saturday night. Perhaps equaly as important was the ability to ship in arms and men from Benghazi to Misrata by sea. Misrata alone though was not a serious threat and the more rapid collapse/advance occured only after the Zawiyah had been retaken, depriving Tripoli of its last oil refinery and supply route to the west.

Ty zraver for translation a la Kipling. I am no expert at Arabic language but judging from the body language of both Arabic Ladies and Gentlemen I had considered it as meaning something like "If I had a gun I'd shoot it in the air".

Doktor
23 Aug 11,, 09:14
And I would stress the importance of NATO's AF and Navy.

kato
23 Aug 11,, 09:18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpJE0JmmQH8&feature=player_embedded

Doktor
23 Aug 11,, 09:44
Sirte, part II ;)

US military say they have registered three new Scud missiles launches fired by Libyan loyalist forces, this time at the rebel stronghold of Misrata.

Three short-range ballistic missiles were launched from near Sirte, one of the cities that remains under the control of Muammar Gaddafi's regime, the Associated Press reported. Sirte is also the hometown of the beleaguered Libyan leader.

The missiles were fired around midday, but there is no information yet on whether anyone was hurt.

A Scud missile was previously fired by Libyan government forces on August 15, for the first time since the beginning of this year's conflict. It was also launched from near Sirte and landed in the desert outside Brega. No one was injured.

tankie
23 Aug 11,, 11:10
We won't get Lockerbies. That alone is worth the effort.

Or murdered WPC's ,,, Yvonne Fletcher / Embassy sieges / genocide / etcetc .

tankie
23 Aug 11,, 11:16
Now one of the Gadaffi's sons escaped? These rebels are just great, gotta love 'em.


Seems like his main son can walk about at will giving interviews , there have been a few knee jerk reactions on this thread (guilty ) :whome: its suck it n see now ,a waiting game :fish:

tankie
23 Aug 11,, 12:13
Lord of the Beast I can understand but King of Scotland is a tad too far. He didn't have the knees for tartan :)

Tis troo nuts , there is a film about it :slap:

snapper
23 Aug 11,, 12:19
And I would stress the importance of NATO's AF and Navy.

Without which Benghazi would have burned months ago.

kato
23 Aug 11,, 12:19
NATO will be holding a press conference on Libya in 40 minutes. Streamed at NATO website.

tankie
23 Aug 11,, 12:46
Without which Benghazi would have burned months ago.



:biggrin: Hey snapper , strange you should say that , in RTR we were very versatile and cunning with our unofficial modifications which one was , an empty 5 gallon drum of oil with the top taken off , then filled with sand and then soaked in petrol , set light it burnt for ages , just needed a stir with a stick , or more taxpayers petrol ;) we could cook on it , use it for hot water to wash underkeks , orrrrr just sit round it stuffing beer down our necks ,, and the name of this wondrous implement

A ,,,, Benghazi :tankie:

dave lukins
23 Aug 11,, 13:43
These rebels are just great, gotta love 'em.

How they are not killing each other is beyond me. Everyone is firing wildly and no one seems to be in command. It's a matter of jump in a vehicle, blast of a couple of mags into the air then Charge!!! It seems to be working for them.. so if it's not broke why fix it ;)

kato
23 Aug 11,, 13:46
I'm starting to be reminded of Yugoslavia.
At the beginning of the NATO conference just now they hyped their involvement by claiming "we've destroyed over 5000 military targets, including at least 800 tanks... and artillery pieces!".
Flashback to '99.

Doktor
23 Aug 11,, 13:46
That way, If I were as crazy as Gadaffi, I'd jump in the commanding vehicle, blast a couple of mags and stay in power, this time as the leader of the rebels (history repeating, eh?)

Doktor
23 Aug 11,, 13:50
At the beginning of the NATO conference just now they hyped their involvement by claiming "we've destroyed over 5000 military targets, including at least 800 tanks... and artillery pieces!".
Flashback to '99.

'91, '95, 99, '01... they need to change the PR agency ;)

dave lukins
23 Aug 11,, 14:05
'91, '95, 99, '01... they need to change the PR agency ;)

A little embellishment of the facts boosts moral :rolleyes:

Doktor
23 Aug 11,, 14:08
They should add the SAMs at Sirt. You know those who they killed 3x :biggrin:

1979
23 Aug 11,, 14:41
They should add the SAMs at Sirt. You know those who they killed 3x :biggrin:

ok
so we divide the claims by three and we get 266.(6) tanks and arty destroyed:slap:

Doktor
23 Aug 11,, 15:09
ok
so we divide the claims by three and we get 266.(6) tanks and arty destroyed:slap:

Yep, out of the 3 sons, they only have 1 now. Maybe ;)

Doktor
23 Aug 11,, 16:01
Tripoli: Watch live — RT On air (http://rt.com/on-air/libya-tripoli-rebels-green-square/)

Tripoli's green square live. Or so they say.

snapper
23 Aug 11,, 16:26
Map of compound: EA WorldView - Home - Libya LiveBlog: Disappearing and Re-Appearing*Qaddafis (http://www.enduringamerica.com/home/2011/8/23/libya-liveblog-disappearing-and-re-appearing-qaddafis.html#1522)

kato
23 Aug 11,, 16:29
Tripoli's green square live. Or so they say.
Definitely not at or near Green Square.

snapper
23 Aug 11,, 16:34
AP report: Rebel spokesman: opposition forces have entered Gadhafi's Bab al-Aziziya compound in Tripoli

Reuters : Libyan rebels poured into Gaddafi's compound in Tripoli on Tuesday and were seen firing in the air in celebration

EU Forign Affairs press conference now: http://ec.europa.eu/avservices/player/streaming.cfm?type=ebsvod&sid=185360

Doktor
23 Aug 11,, 16:44
26051

snapper
23 Aug 11,, 17:05
Loving the moped - that is above and beyond the call of RT jokes.

kato
23 Aug 11,, 17:09
What's up with that one silver car without license plates? That one's popped up a couple times by now...

snapper
23 Aug 11,, 17:54
Rebel flag on what they say is the compound: yfrog Photo : http://yfrog.com/h6temxfj Shared by Libyan4life (http://yfrog.com/h6temxfj)

Live coverage now on Sky; Sky News, First for Breaking News, Latest News and Video News from the UK and around the World (http://news.sky.com/home/)

Dago
24 Aug 11,, 00:01
Little bit related to the topic, I was going through youtube videos of rebels taking Gadaffi's compound and then I also came across this one from Bahrain - (Libya Soldiers Executed by Foreign African Mercenaries in Derna - Gaddafi Gang - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSemNhpJbqc&feature=related)) (Graphic)

Kinda makes em disgusted that the us supports despotic regimes in Bahrain and elsewhere. You think we would support Democracy in Libya we would also support democracy in Bahrain?

RoccoR
24 Aug 11,, 01:23
et al,

Be careful what you fight for, you just may get it.

While we tend to win military engagements, we just as commonly tend to lose control and success in the post-conflict phase. And if Libya turns into a radical state, we could achieve a worse condition than we stated with; and it will be blamed on the US. We simply don't have the money to through away on another failed "democratization effort."

And we don't want to have to establish another huge US Political-Military contingent in another Arab country.

Most Respectfully,
R

Dago
24 Aug 11,, 04:49
et al,

Be careful what you fight for, you just may get it.

While we tend to win military engagements, we just as commonly tend to lose control and success in the post-conflict phase. And if Libya turns into a radical state, we could achieve a worse condition than we stated with; and it will be blamed on the US. We simply don't have the money to through away on another failed "democratization effort."

And we don't want to have to establish another huge US Political-Military contingent in another Arab country.

Most Respectfully,
R


At this point, I don't think there is any talk of a larger intervention then what's presently occurring. The start of the conflict, do you remember what the world witnessed on television beamed from media outlets from the region? We saw very large protests in the east, and protests in and around Tripoli, and the reaction that we are witnessing today was a result of the actions of what occurred thereafter on how they dealt with the protests.

They were so fearful, after what happened in Tunisia, that Qaddafi lashed out violently at the protesters. We saw air attacks, mercenaries, and artillery and rocket artillery formations being prepared. We saw protesters being fired upon not only from the ground but from the air above! Cannons nonetheless! We saw mercenaries from African countries being flown in and sent there to breakup protesters! What we saw? Mercenaries beating protesters with batons and armed with automatic rifles.

The more of this that unfolded, we saw more and more defections in the military, and also in the police forces. We saw corpse burned to ash, and some 10+ soldiers executed with gunshot wounds to the head, which were most likely executed for not following through on orders to fire on protesters! Some reports that they were burned alive, although don't know if it's credible, but there is the possibility.

From there, it was clear cut, that the West and East were divided. One major population area against another! Population center against rural! Libyan against Libyan.

The balance of power was evident and proven with one side, a professional army, with artillery, air, and logistical support (somewhat logistical support) against newly armed protesters, former military, and members of the military themselves that defected. Unorganized. But driven by passion.

Originally, there was talk about a no-fly zone, and large concern on Benghazi and other population areas that could experience conflict. I originally thought the major concern was Benghazi, and creating a cease-fire. I originally envisioned that rebel controlled Benghazi and the areas of Tripoli would of been separated by an intense air campaign to prevent Qaddafi loyalists to reach and terrorize Benghazi. As we saw, we saw the line keeping going further and further, and eventually NATO was supporting conflict in urbanized zones. basically encouraging rebels to attack concentrated areas. For one, I thought we were to limit fighting in populated areas, and maintain a ceasefire? Evidently though, there have been limited casualties, and now as a result, Tripoli has fallen.

Is it over? Not even close. You still have Qaddafi loyalists. You still have tribes. You can also possibly see inter rebel fighting. They were united for one cause, to topple Qaddafi. Now that cause has been fulfilled. There is much more that can come between and break down that unity. Self interest for one. You thought a despotic Government could be bad? We'll a armed, conflict riddled, split of more war could be just as bad. It could get bad, or it can get good. Really it can go either way.

kato
24 Aug 11,, 08:43
We saw [...]
Just to play advocatus diaboli: Did we see that? Any of that?

This civil war has been a media and propaganda war. All the way from February till now.

Mihais
24 Aug 11,, 09:51
Who am I to say there weren't air attacks,mercenaries,beatings etc...?What I know for sure is the same impartial media looked the other way when their poster boys acted like SOB's.

From start until now,it was a war without a real&observable purpose,but with lots of pretexts and justifications.I suppose the real reason behind it will be visible in 2-3 years,but by then it will be a different world.Obsolete intel.

The rebels fought for money.Gaddafi's tribes won' accept losing their lion's share so easily.The tribal war will carry on,only without the hype.

Tronic
24 Aug 11,, 19:33
Kinda makes em disgusted that the us supports despotic regimes in Bahrain and elsewhere. You think we would support Democracy in Libya we would also support democracy in Bahrain?

The despots in Bahrain are useful therefore Democracy can take a back seat. :biggrin:

Dago
25 Aug 11,, 00:12
Just to play advocatus diaboli: Did we see that? Any of that?

This civil war has been a media and propaganda war. All the way from February till now.

I've seen bodies of executed individuals with gun shot wounds to the head. Did I see the execution? No. Exactly BY WHO, you are correct, we do not know. I've seen the mercenaries, or that looks like to be, and also them speaking and being interrogated, which mostly look like from African countries? Am I familiar with southern Libya? No. So they could just be very dark dark African looking Libyans. I saw large crowds with those same people being attacked. (youtube). Do I exactly know who was the large crowd? We'll not exactly. But I do not think that crowd was out there supporting Gadaffi, and then you had "Rebels" in control? Beating those supporting Gadaffi supporters? I mean, I seen Rebels in pickup trucks being shot by tank shells. Its pretty easy to see the pro-gadaffi side early on, with there convoy of trailers with tanks, and logistics vehicles, and also looked like to be land rovers or toyota's. There can be no doubt about it that the Regime lost control of the situation.

Much of the videos I will agree with you in large part, it's pretty difficult to determine with 100% accuracy. As with anything portrayed on television or beamed from media. You can never truly know because you arn't there. But make no doubt about it that Gadaffi was and is fighting for his life and the life of the regime. There are alot of people, as you can see now, that are against him. Equally there are a large amount that support him. But at the time of the no-fly zone, majority of Benghazi deserted. That being local officals, and other military. I am not saying the city fully knew what was going on or what had happened. Obviously the biggest moment was when local officials and military around Benghazi deserted.

Chunder
27 Aug 11,, 03:19
From start until now,it was a war without a real&observable purpose,but with lots of pretexts and justifications.I suppose the real reason behind it will be visible in 2-3 years,but by then it will be a different world.Obsolete intel.


I've said it before - but: where on earth does this baggage idea of creating a stable democracy out of military action come from? Is it some sort of consciousness resolve - and, what is the point?

Isn't undertaking such an action a statement within itself?

Officer of Engineers
27 Aug 11,, 05:07
From start until now,it was a war without a real&observable purpose,but with lots of pretexts and justificationsI thought it obvious the second NATO took action. Qaddafy must die.

Mihais
27 Aug 11,, 06:29
Yes,Sir.But why did we put ourselves in a position that forces our hand?In other words,what was really in the minds of the decision makers.Killing Gaddafi is an operational objective.But I can't see a reasonable strategic objective(and it kinda annoys me,to be fair).Either I'm stupid,or the decision makers are and went in without one.Not good in any case.

Dago
30 Aug 11,, 02:16
Monday, August 29, 2011 - 19:51 GMT+3 - Libya


Khamis Gaddafi, Muammar Gaddafi's son, was killed in a battle between Tarhoni and Bin Walid on Sunday, according to a rebel commander in Tripoli who spoke to Al Arabiya.

Senior rebel officer, Colonel Al-Mahdi Al-Haragi, in charge of the Tripoli Brigade of the rebel army, told the Reuters news agency he had confirmation that Khamis was badly wounded in the clash near Ben Walid and Tarhoni.

He was taken to a hospital but died of his wounds and was buried in the area, Al-Haragi told Reuters, without giving the timing.

No independent confirmation of the death was available.

First time I have heard or seen Apache's operating in Libya. Any idea where, or from which nations these Apaches are from? Also how many? Squadrons...and where would they be based? Are they based off Naval assets?


Has me thinking, it looks like this was a planned operation, or I mean maybe standard for the way the operation has been carried out. (1) Apache Helo's and other CAP spotted vehicle and fired. (Which there are a hell of alot of targets) (2) Had inlel on Khamis, or other Military officers and this was an op in that sense or an assassination of Khamis.

I mean, there could be an argument made, is it really necessary to go on from here. For Nato. To continue in the conflict, with decapitation strikes, and the killing of more Libyan soldiers. Originally, the NOFLY zone was set up to prevent any massive casualties (Obama's statement) for the city of Bengazi, when Libyan Government were amassing men, tanks, and other equipment to battle Bengazi. From there, a lot have deserted, equipment ceased, and they are now really that threat no longer exists. They are now on the run, and just offering stiff resistance in some places that the Rebels can easily deal with. Believe it or not that the entire country doesn't only support the Rebels. You still have Libyans that support the regime. There are still hardcore regime loyalists that burned those 100 or so corps, then you have other that arn't that hardcore that are just Libyans.

Can't the Rebels handle it now? And deal with it? And the international community can take a step back from airstrikes and stuff? Let Libyans kill other Libyans and finally negotiate and do it them self?

Looks like Nato won't let up until every Gadaffi member or past Military member or anyone resistance rebels is killed.

Dago
30 Aug 11,, 03:08
Pictures : !!!


http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg94/DKconfiguration/misratashells.jpg

Is this a garage sale??? :P

And check out this Video below, looks as the AA gun did it's job. That's good old fashion effectiveness. Except for the rebels running after them, apparently they are more concerned with running and shooting then actually aiming and hitting a damn thing. Open up a few laser tags in Libya and they will get the hang of it!

The video below is not graphic, no one dies or get hits. No blood whatsoever. Just bullets humming by and someone dropping to the ground playing dead.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URIhUiN8Uuw&fmt=18

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/7092/800xie.jpg

Arresting pro-gaddffi loyalists or Barcelona fans? :P

Dago
30 Aug 11,, 03:34
Very graphic pictures below. Between 50-80 Charred bodies found in a warehouse.


http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20110828/800_ap_libya_dead_bodies_110828.jpg


http://www.globalpost.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/gp3_full_article/mlibya-1.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lqnaityJCK1qakqyfo1_500.jpg




[/IMG]

Double Edge
30 Aug 11,, 04:04
But why did we put ourselves in a position that forces our hand?
You did not put yourself in that position, events on the ground forced it. That event is the Arab spring and securing it is what forced your hand. For now the spotlight is on dictatorial republics, see Syria. So as to influence indirectly the dictatorial monarchies which are harder to mess with.

The ultimate goal here is a more free & prosperous Arab world. There is no better weapon to use against the Islamists.


In other words,what was really in the minds of the decision makers.
Recent developments on the ground, the big picture that forces the hand.

Kinda like 9/11 & getting rid of Saddam.

No 9/11 or arab spring and both those leaders would still be in charge today.


But I can't see a reasonable strategic objective(and it kinda annoys me,to be fair).
How about now :)

The great powers like to create these interlocking triangles of stability around the world.

This is more valuable long term than some oil contracts.

Officer of Engineers
30 Aug 11,, 05:40
Mihais has a point. Nothing here explains the Canadian Force's participation and a Canadian command.

Dago
30 Aug 11,, 06:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH_X_yr5SMY&feature=related

Where is Gadaffi? Maybe this was him when he fled LOL. I must of counted 50 vehicles passing by. I don't think Gadaffi is traveling like that anymore.

NUS
30 Aug 11,, 10:38
The ultimate goal here is a more free & prosperous Arab world. There is no better weapon to use against the Islamists. The "dictators" were the only thing between Islamists and power. Now Islamists are fighting side by side with NATO to remove them. Guess who will by in control of Egypt and Lybia very soon?



The great powers like to create these interlocking triangles of stability around the world.This is more valuable long term than some oil contracts. Mwahahaha! :biggrin: That's a joke of a year!

1979
30 Aug 11,, 11:11
" But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship. ...voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country. "

Hermann Goring -Nuremberg Diary.

Double Edge
30 Aug 11,, 11:16
The "dictators" were the only thing between Islamists and power. Now Islamists are fighting side by side with NATO to remove them. Guess who will by in control of Egypt and Lybia very soon?
Yeah ? and what about the elections after. Think they will get in ?

The ppl want jobs, not religion. More interested in what they can get in this life rather than the next one.


Mwahahaha! :biggrin: That's a joke of a year!
Yeah but it trumps your cliched war-for-oil theory :tongue:

You've got to be pretty damn broke to go to war for oil.


Mihais has a point. Nothing here explains the Canadian Force's participation and a Canadian command.
NATO obligations ?

What's your guess.

1979
30 Aug 11,, 11:28
NATO obligations ?

Why did the Germans pull out than ?

Officer of Engineers
01 Sep 11,, 06:32
NATO obligations ?

What's your guess.LGen Bouchard got chosen because he is a Canadian, ie a country with no real stakes in Libya.

Double Edge
02 Sep 11,, 10:59
Even Gaddafi who did everything West demanded, is still being blamed in WMD production. His mistake was attempt to change Production Share Agreement with western companies.
Are you suggesting this was the cassus belli ?

Cannot find too much on this apart from a embassy cable, what source would you recommend here. pls dont say stratfor :biggrin:

NUS
05 Sep 11,, 07:28
Are you suggesting this was the cassus belli ?

Cannot find too much on this apart from a embassy cable, what source would you recommend here. pls dont say stratfor :biggrin:
Well, if US government is not good enough for you...

Libya: NOC takes bigger share as Total renews EPSAs for Blocks C17 and C137 (http://www.energy-pedia.com/article.aspx?articleid=133853)

And learn what the "casus belli" is.

NUS
05 Sep 11,, 18:23
Libyan Islamist says interim council should quit | Top News | Reuters (http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE78308520110904?pageNumber=3&virtualBrandChannel=0&sp=true)

Jihadists plot to take over Libya - Washington Times (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/sep/4/jihadists-plot-to-take-over-libya/)

Double Edge
06 Sep 11,, 23:34
Well, if US government is not good enough for you...
Did not find it very revealing


Libya: NOC takes bigger share as Total renews EPSAs for Blocks C17 and C137 (http://www.energy-pedia.com/article.aspx?articleid=133853)

And learn what the "casus belli" is.
What about it ? Show me where you think the 'casus belli' is ?

Show me the breach of contract. There is none.

The article title itself indicates the contract was up for renewal, the NOC is entitled to change terms on renewal.

highsea
09 Sep 11,, 18:36
LGen Bouchard got chosen because he is a Canadian, ie a country with no real stakes in Libya.Maybe we should force Mexico to join NATO.

Then it could have gone to a Mexican general, since it's a job "no American is willing to do"...

kato
17 Sep 11,, 19:14
Four weeks after the fall of Tripolis loyalist troops continue to hold onto all towns they held back then.

There are currently three fronts:
- Syrte, where rebel troops are growing tired of constantly withdrawing again from their assaults with forward positions constantly under loyalist artillery and rocket fire
- Bani Walid, where loyalist troops have begun counterattacks against rebel troops yesterday
- Sabha, where rebels claim to have taken the airport and encircled the city

While losses look low at a first glance - maybe ten dead, fifty injured on each front per day on the rebel side - that casualty rate becomes something different when you consider that combat at such casualty rates has been going on for two weeks and that the rebel troops on each front did not exceed 2000-3000 troops in the first place - meaning they've been suffering overall casualty rates in the vicinity of 25-30%. On the Sabha front casualty numbers are slightly higher than on the other two, reflecting that NATO can't support them that far south.

The only major change from four weeks ago is that the rebels have taken over Libya's chemical weapons stored at the Ruwagha depot.

bolo121
17 Sep 11,, 19:29
DE I really like your posts usually but could you please stop using SMS stuff like 'ppl' and 'pls'. It always irritates and undermines the impact of your statements.

cyppok
17 Sep 11,, 23:06
I sort of agree with this the Islamists will end up in control in Lybia and Egypt and then democracy ends or gets curtailed to keep their parties in power.

Double Edge
17 Sep 11,, 23:49
Really depends on how their consititution gets written up. If the Islamists can get into power they can also fall from power ;)

Mihais
18 Sep 11,, 05:48
Centurion to the senators of Rome(while putting his hand on the hilt of the sword):''Senators,this made Caesar what he is,this will keep him what he is and more.'':cool:

The Constitution is a piece of paper,rugged enough not to be useful as toilet paper.They'll need willpower,guns and numbers,all of which the Islamists have more than needed.

Double Edge
18 Sep 11,, 14:09
Centurion to the senators of Rome(while putting his hand on the hilt of the sword):''Senators,this made Caesar what he is,this will keep him what he is and more.'':cool:
Google can't find this quote, where's it from ?

Yes, i understand what you're saying just wanted to know the context in which that statement was made.


The Constitution is a piece of paper,rugged enough not to be useful as toilet paper.They'll need willpower,guns and numbers,all of which the Islamists have more than needed.
Americans have influence with the army otherwise they wouldn't have dropped their support for Mubarak ;)

If the secular lot can come up with a coherent message they will attract the most funding from abroad.

kato
18 Sep 11,, 15:14
Google can't find this quote, where's it from ?
Probably attributable to Gaius Scribonius Curio the Younger, tribune in 50 BC and praetor in 49 BC. Iirc there was one instance in 50 BC where he made such a speech in the senate - with drawn sword though. The context was the civil war about to break out between Caesar and Pompey shortly after, and Curio took Caesar's side, later fleeing Rome to Caesar's camp at Ravenna with Marc Anthony.

While Curio garnered support for Caesar with such speeches, Caesar's nominees in the election later in 50 BC still lost out majorly to Pompey, ultimately leading to the consuls supporting Pompey over Caesar. Curio's function was to work the political angle so that Caesar stayed in power as general of his army and "governor" of the territories that army occupied well beyond his official tenure that had ended in spring 50 BC. He posed this as a defusing tactic in which he proposed that Caesar and Pompey should step down from their offices concurrently, of course well knowing that Pompey wouldn't agree to that and that this sudden proposal would majorly confuse the opposing party, opening up friction within that party to exploit.

Tacitus later claimed that Gaius Julius Caesar had bribed Curio to do that speech and others and that he had openly supported him politically only in exchange for Caesar paying off his debts. Officially it couldn't be proven at the time. The man connecting both was Marc Anthony, Curio's successor with whom both Curio and Caesar supposedly had affairs at one point or another.

All just like modern politics, isn't it?

For ontopic sake, Gaius Scribonius Curio the Younger died fighting against soldiers of the Numidian kingdom who entered the war on Pompey's side the next year. The Numidian Kingdom consisted of the Berber tribes of Tripolitania, southern Tunisia and eastern Algeria.

Mihais
18 Sep 11,, 19:49
Trust the barbarian Germanic efficiency.:biggrin:

Speaking of the Numidians,nature of warfare hasn't changed much in that part of the world for 2000 years.Just as politics didn't changed.Human nature seems pretty constant.But at least king Juba died bravely.Let's how Mu'ammar dies.


DE,since it's speaking in parables day I say there too many variables with your argument.First ,to quote the Spartans,there is the ''If''. Then it's this-''with iron ,not gold the Romans win their victories''.That may be apocryphal.More certain is the guy that throws the sword onto the scales.Same context.

About the famous Egyptian army,you expect quite a lot from them.They may tilt the balance if they there is enough strength in the secular faction.But to keep it in check forever...
Btw,I wouldn't put too much faith in the Americans either.The very reason this latent revolt happened now is precisely because they showed weakness.''Great empires are not kept by timidity'':cool:

Double Edge
19 Sep 11,, 00:20
For ontopic sake, Gaius Scribonius Curio the Younger died fighting against soldiers of the Numidian kingdom who entered the war on Pompey's side the next year. The Numidian Kingdom consisted of the Berber tribes of Tripolitania, southern Tunisia and eastern Algeria.
So the Numidians are the Islamists and the Caesar here represents the present egyptian army ?

Did the Numidians win that war and presumably their independence ?


The Constitution is a piece of paper,rugged enough not to be useful as toilet paper.They'll need willpower,guns and numbers,all of which the Islamists have more than needed.
Idea is their constitution becomes a living document and not just a piece of paper like the one they have presently.

Double Edge
19 Sep 11,, 00:21
DE,since it's speaking in parables day I say there too many variables with your argument.First ,to quote the Spartans,there is the ''If''. Then it's this-''with iron ,not gold the Romans win their victories''.That may be apocryphal.More certain is the guy that throws the sword onto the scales.Same context.
ok


About the famous Egyptian army,you expect quite a lot from them.They may tilt the balance if they there is enough strength in the secular faction.But to keep it in check forever...
Egyptian army like all armies wants stability. The faction that offers the best argument there will win the handover. That country needs growth & jobs more than it needs religion, i'll be damned if the Islamists can offer a better solution here than the secular faction.

Ideally the army goes back to the barracks, otherwise overturning Mubarak served no purpose.


Btw,I wouldn't put too much faith in the Americans either.The very reason this latent revolt happened now is precisely because they showed weakness.''Great empires are not kept by timidity'':cool:
So americans will work with whatever new adminstration comes into force.

I don't know if its showing weakness or a gamble, Mubarak got rolled because they dropped their support. What is strength for you ? hold onto him at all costs even if it means locking up tons of ppl. Been there, done that.

You still think democracy hasn't got a chance in hell in the islamic world, don't you :)

Turkey & Indonesia are existing examples. See no problems with adding to that list. Its good the elections got delayed in Egypt, they were supposed to be held by now, too early for the secular factions to get themselves organised and present a viable oppostion to the Islamists. if elections were held today you would be right that the Islamists would take over. So that means they ain't going to be held until the time is right and in a way the result is somewhat more sure ;)

Mihais
19 Sep 11,, 05:57
Nope,the Numidians are here for the fun of it.Caesar is the islamists.

So far,nothing is changed,so no reason to give more chances to secularism.You can have all the democracy you want,in itself that's meaningless,possibly dangerous.Btw,very democratic of you to keep postponing the vote until you believe your guys have a better stand.

You assume the army can reject Islamism forever.No army is better than the society it comes from,at least not by much.
What do you want and what Abdul in the streets of Cairo wants are 2 different worlds.Then you need to consider what Abdul THINKS he wants.

The point is revolution happened because the Americans were perceived as weak.The fact that rebellion in Bahrain was crushed suggests that at least a few of them had a contingency plan.But elsewhere their reaction was an improvisation.The Americans aren't a rising star in the ME and that's a conviction that took some time to become entrenched.You can call their policy anything you want,but you can't rule the area with soft power alone.Of course the US policy will adapt and deal with the new regimes or consider the revolutionaries in some countries.But there is a new balance of power there,and it doesn't favor the West.