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Fighting Drug Cartels in Guatemala

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  • Fighting Drug Cartels in Guatemala

    Objective: discuss the importance of US military and financial assistance in combating drug cartels in Guatemala and Latin America

    Questions
    • should the US provide more military assistance and funding to Latin American governments to combat drug cartels and drug trafficking?
    • what policies can the US institute domestically to combat hard drug use and undercut the revenues of the drug cartels?
    • is the current drug war blowback from policies that evolved from Nixon/Reagan War on Drugs?

    Fighting Drug Cartels in Guatemala

    El Mas Loco (“The Craziest One”), the head of La Familia drug cartel, died in a hail of gunfire with Mexican authorities.

    While Mexico touts the killing as another drug kingpin taken care of, Guatemala, Mexico’s neighbor to the south, is worried about what this success might mean for its own safety. The country fears that the cartels will move south across a porous border using Guatemala as a new base for their operations.

    The murder rate in Guatemala is already double that of Mexico, where more than 10,000 drug-related murders have taken place this year.

    Now there is evidence that one of Mexico’s most vicious cartels, the Zetas, are setting up bases in Guatemala as they come under increasing pressure from Felipe Calderon’s government. The Zetas have set up training camps and are trying to intimidate Guatemalan cartels. So far they’ve forced at least one Guatemalan drug family to leave the country.

    “When you have drug traffickers afraid of other drug traffickers, you know its getting pretty bad,” U.S. Ambassador Stephen McFarland told Fox News at the U.S. Embassy in Guatemala City.
    Earlier this year one of the cartels sent a message to Guatemalans by leaving several decapitated heads on the steps of Parliament.

    The Zetas are in a vicious war with Mexico’s Gulf Cartel and are trying to cut out the middle man as they fights for trafficking routes.

    Guatemala has long served as one of the main transit points for cocaine into the U.S. The drug arrives by sea from Colombia and Ecuador and then travels by land through Mexico into America. Last year, between 285 and 350 metric tons of cocaine transited Guatemala.

    “Just about all of the drugs going through Mexico into the United States go through Guatemala,” McFarland explained.

    But the $13- to $25-billion drug trade amounts to more money than the combined defense budgets of all the Latin American countries.

    So how do the cartels get their drugs to the U.S.?

    For one, they build small semi-submersible submarines in the triple canopy jungles of South America. The crafts can carry between 4 and 10 metric tons of cocaine on board, a payload worth approximately $100 million. Each with a four man crew, the homemade subs can travel up to 4,000 miles without refueling. They cost about $500,000 apiece for the cartel to build.

    For nearly more than 5 years, the Guatemalan and U.S. militaries have seen a surge of such subs and have been able to stop some of them.

    In October 2009, Guatemalan special forces caught a submarine and seized the 5 tons of cocaine on board.

    These soldiers are trained by U.S. Navy SEALs, but U.S. Special Forces are also training a Guatemalan special force tactical strike team. The military has donated a number of UH-2 helicopters to help with cartel raids.

    Fox news was able to visit the base in the Pacific where this training takes place.

    Soldiers who took part in the October operation say those they arrested lived in a confined area so small that the occupants could stand or sit but never lie down. These were common conditions, they said.

    There are “no heads, and no beds,” one U.S. counter-narcotics official who has experience intercepting these subs laughed. “And the crew lives on Red Bull and spam.”

    Crews dump the submersibles off the Pacific coasts of Guatemala and Mexico and transfer the cocaine bundles to waiting ships. These ships speed off to the unguarded coastlines and then take overland routes toward the U.S. border. There, one kilogram of cocaine sells for between $17,000 and $32,000.

    “There is a growing reef of these semi-submersibles off the coast of Mexico,” another U.S. official said.

    The official is one of many who track the drug movements and shares intelligence at a joint interagency task force center known as JIATF-S based in Key West. At JIATF-S, members of the U.S. military, the Drug Enforcement Agency, Customs and Border Patrol and the Coast Guard work with representatives of most Latin American countries.

    On July 27, 2009 JIATF-S intercepted a semi-submersible 300 miles off the coast of Colombia. A year earlier, Congress passed the Drug Trafficking Interdiction Act that essentially makes it an automatic felony for anyone caught onboard these unregistered vessels. The law served as recognition that there is no other use for these homemade subs than for smuggling contraband.

    McJustice

    In Guatemala, the U.S. embassy and the United States Agency for International Development have helped the government set up a number of 24-hour courts to help deal with the large number of cases emanating from drug cartel violence.

    These courts are especially busy with the high rate of murders and kidnappings associated with drug cartel gangs.

    The court in downtown Guatemala City looks like a Stop and Shop or 7-11 but in the basement of a high-rise courthouse.

    The prisoners are held in a group cell in a lock up in the basement garage. They catcall to passersby. When their names are called, they are escorted to what almost looks like a drive-through window to pick up their police paperwork and charges. A few steps from there, they wait to be assigned a public defender, while the judge sits in an all-glass courtroom just steps away.

    The U.S. State Department has also set up a model police precinct in one of Guatemala City’s most crowded and violent suburbs, Villa Nueva, where conviction rates are high and community outreach has led to a very successful tip hotline.

    But when a Fox team visited Guatemala’s northern border at El Carmen, the main pedestrian crossing in Guatemala’s southwest, the complexity of helping the government tackle its cartel and border problem became apparent.

    Guatemala has a 577-mile long border with Mexico. It has eight official crossing points and 1,200 blind crossings.

    Immigration Minister Enrique Degenhart, an affable English-speaking former businessman who was educated at Boston College, traveled with our Fox team to show us the border.

    We landed at a military base in a banana grove not far from where the Zetas carried out a brazen prison break earlier in the week, freeing a cartel leader who had murdered a well-known soccer star. Eleven suspects, members of the Zeta cartel, were subsequently arrested and as a result, the minister had to travel with an armed escort and a bodyguard as he showed us the border.

    “We are tired of being used. We are tired of organized crime using Guatemala as a transit point for jumping into Mexico and into the U.S.,” Degenhart said.

    At the El Carmen crossing, there was chaos. A constant stream of pedestrians simply rolled up their pant legs and waded through the river - a five minute walk from the Guatemalan side of the border into Mexico. Upriver, dozens of truck tire rafts waited to ferry illegal migrants and their contraband across the river - a two minute ride. Authorities are unable to stop the flow.

    “Our country is being used as a pipeline or bridge for drugs going into the U.S.,” Degenhart explained.

    He walked us toward the bridge that crosses the river to Mexico and pointed out row upon row of trinket sellers and shops who he said were likely front companies for those selling drugs and weapons.

    “They probably don’t live off of selling tortillas and rice and beans,” Degenhart told the visiting Fox team.

    Not a single policeman was visible. The authorities had recently cut down a series of zip lines that the locals use to cross the river with contraband when the river is too high. On this day, they simply walked.

    While we were there, his officers received word that the Zetas had threatened to kidnap members of his team in retaliation, forcing us to cut our visit short.

    The U.S. is trying to help Guatemala begin to secure its border with Mexico by investing in new border crossings where the Guatemalan authorities can start checking vehicles. The new border crossing would cost about $7 million.

    U.S. officials who specialize in counter-narcotics worry that Al Qaeda will soon realize the porous nature of the Central American-U.S. corridor. They suggest that America’s border problems don’t end at border cities like El Paso and Brownsville, Texas. They say border problem begins in Colombia and must be tackled in Guatemala, where it is easier to intercept the drugs and people before they make their way too far north.
    Source: Fox News
    America's Third War: Fighting Drug Cartels in Guatemala - FoxNews.com
    "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

  • #2
    I just can't provide a good solution that answers the proposed questions. Here is a set of number to consider -- the drug trade is worth about 20 billion a year and a Guatemalan cop makes 150 USD a month.

    The cartel is not after some revolutionary goal or crazy notions of religious purity, they are after one thing, money. Which makes them so hard to deal with. cut off a cartel, another one will take its place.

    For a long term solution, I believe the Guatemalan government must liberalize its economy goaling a greater international trade. Setting up export zones would be a good first step. Still, as long as the 20 billion dollar market exist, there is no hope in eliminating it, but with the export zones in place for those who wants a legit job, they can have one.
    Last edited by xinhui; 31 Jan 11,, 07:25.
    “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

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    • #3
      If cartels were solved in latin america the crime rate in US would lower so much that it would bring positive financial results in the case of law enforcement and security
      sigpic

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      • #4
        Originally posted by xinhui View Post
        For a long term solution, I believe the Guatemalan government must liberalize its economy goaling a greater international trade. Setting up export zones would be a good first step. Still, as long as the 20 billion dollar market exist, there is no hope in eliminating it, but with the export zones in place for those who wants a legit job, they can have one.
        What specific ideas have you got in mind? I'm sure you've bandied some ideas around. I'm always interested in ideas that build economies and countries.
        I heard Belize tried with limited success to attract relitively well to do immigrants (like HK Chinese), offering citizenship with long term money invested in the national bank.
        Reddite igitur quae sunt Caesaris Caesari et quae sunt Dei Deo
        (Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things which are God's)

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        • #5
          Holly ####.20 billions. Anyone thinks we can gang up and ask one of these bastards a few hard questions.
          Those who know don't speak
          He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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          • #6
            Ok, putting my day dream cap on.

            First, issue bonds to fund the long delayed rail linking Puerto Quetza to the capital Guatemala city, Allowing foreign investors 100% ownership of this new rail is totally acceptable. Next, create export zones with zero properties tax inside of the CA triangle (three freeways CA1, CA2 and C19 located between Puerto San Jose and Guatemala city) Start a new police force there that directly report to the presidency. Cut red tapes, cut environmental reviews (I know) and make noise to the IMF to get media coverage.

            Minimal investment and utilize the existing infrastructure to kick things off.
            “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
              Objective: discuss the importance of US military and financial assistance in combating drug cartels in Guatemala and Latin America
              Our original reason for being in SA and CA was to prevent a foothold and spread of communist regimes in the region. The drug war has complicated that and forced the US to put more effort and money in it since those corrupt govts tend to be attracted to communist regimes. However, certain other US govt agencies seem conflicted as to which side they are on in this effort.

              should the US provide more military assistance and funding to Latin American governments to combat drug cartels and drug trafficking?
              Its a worthwhile but futile effort. What they should do is establish a JTF like JTF-B in Honduras, that focuses on infrastructure as well as security. You can shoot dopers till you run out of ammo, but if the people don't have a pot to piss in, they are going with whoever will buy them one.

              what policies can the US institute domestically to combat hard drug use and undercut the revenues of the drug cartels?
              Legalize marijuana, secure the border, focus on real rehab for those incarcerated, or lessen incarceration and increase rehab efforts on the outside.

              is the current drug war blowback from policies that evolved from Nixon/Reagan War on Drugs?
              Yes, but it was part of the plan.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
                Legalize marijuana, secure the border, focus on real rehab for those incarcerated, or lessen incarceration and increase rehab efforts on the outside.
                That's my policy on drug laws - decriminalization for drug use period, legalization for marijuana. It wouldn't exactly be a budget balancer, but we'd save money on law enforcement, prisons, border security, and gain money from tax revenue. Pretty simple, straightforward idea. Anybody who wants marijuana in the United States is going to find a way to get it. Why fund Mexican narco-gangs in the process?
                "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
                  That's my policy on drug laws - decriminalization for drug use period, legalization for marijuana. It wouldn't exactly be a budget balancer, but we'd save money on law enforcement, prisons, border security, and gain money from tax revenue. Pretty simple, straightforward idea. Anybody who wants marijuana in the United States is going to find a way to get it. Why fund Mexican narco-gangs in the process?
                  I had a bit of an epiphany about '94. After fighting the drug war from Columbia to Kansas as a soldier and then a cop over about 8 years, and a discussion I had with an old accuaintance that was also a former "govt employee", I just walked away from the whole scene. I saw that it was unwinnable by design and that the drug war propagated itself as its own entity. Fed financially by both sides, the addict and the govt. The govt funds the addict and the war on the addicts substance. Odd isn't it?

                  Think about this.....Where would law enforcement be today without the drug war? We have went from meter maids and neigborhood patrols to militarily equipped and trained "civilian police" with the same hardware our guys are toting in war zones. I have a problem with that.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
                    I had a bit of an epiphany about '94. After fighting the drug war from Columbia to Kansas as a soldier and then a cop over about 8 years, and a discussion I had with an old accuaintance that was also a former "govt employee", I just walked away from the whole scene. I saw that it was unwinnable by design and that the drug war propagated itself as its own entity. Fed financially by both sides, the addict and the govt. The govt funds the addict and the war on the addicts substance. Odd isn't it?

                    Think about this.....Where would law enforcement be today without the drug war? We have went from meter maids and neigborhood patrols to militarily equipped and trained "civilian police" with the same hardware our guys are toting in war zones. I have a problem with that.
                    What do you think of legalized, regulated marijuana?

                    I'm also interested in exploring the concept of coca as a regulated, safe stimulant in the same way coffee is used.

                    It would provide a massive legitimate export market, and give an alternative to Bolivian and Colombian growers, as opposed to the current arrangement with drug lords.

                    One could buy a tin of coca leaf, shredded, flavored, whatever, for a pick-me-up that is less cancerous than tobacco and gives the kick of a cup of coffee.

                    It seems native practices in the consumption of coca leaf have minimal negative side effects as far as health is concerned - it's as natural in South America as drinking coffee and smoking a cigarette is in the US.

                    As we can see, when we mess with what mother nature has given us, it can have devastating effects. Look at the problems with Four Loko and other highly caffeinated, fortified malt liquor energy drinks. Caffeine, generally recognized as safe in coffee and soda, becomes a powerful, dangerous drug when we scientifically mess with it to create concentrated concoctions. That is what is currently being done with coca - it's being scientifically extracted from the leaves and made into powder cocaine and crack.
                    "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

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                    • #11
                      [QUOTE]
                      Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
                      What do you think of legalized, regulated marijuana?
                      I'm for it. The govt should be too. They could go from spending millions fighting it to collecting millions in revenue from taxing it. Now why don't we do that? I'd like to hear your take on why it isn't and probably won't happen.

                      I'm also interested in exploring the concept of coca as a regulated, safe stimulant in the same way coffee is used................
                      I like your whole concept. I think it is very viable and would again provide tax revenue that you would think the govt wants! It a serious WTF question that we need to be pushing our legislators to be looking at as a serious alternative to the current situation, which all logical people know has no end.

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                      • #12
                        I seriously thing by researching and promoting coca leaf as a generally recognized as safe natural stimulant, we could destroy the drug cartels, eliminate the narco-war, by using the free market to allow coca growers a safe, profitable, legitimate alternative. Same with marijuana.

                        The problem is that people have stereotypes and biases against casual marijuana use, and are only aware of coca as a powder/free base substance, and not its natural use among the people of the Andes.

                        The US government created the scare about marijuana in the 20s and 30s, and took what was a relatively minor issue up until the 70s (cocaine use) and declared war on it, ingraining into people's minds this negative notion about a drug that has practical and safe applications as a consumable product among regular people.

                        But yes, legalizing, regulating, and taxing marijuana and coca leaf would delivers a multi-billion dollar profit to the government, both in saved costs (enforcement, military assistance, imprisonment) and tax revenue. It could be enough to eliminate a major part of the budget deficits we've been experiencing for years.

                        Talk about unintended consequences, eh?
                        "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
                          Talk about unintended consequences, eh?
                          Where they though? What has been gained by who in the drug war?

                          What industry was behind the banning of marijuana?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
                            Where they though? What has been gained by who in the drug war?

                            What industry was behind the banning of marijuana?
                            Latin American organized drug syndicates are the winners. The people of North and Latin America are the losers.

                            From what I'm aware of - people with interests in the oil and timber industries were among those who demonized marijuana in the pursuit of profits. I believe Rudolf Diesel made his first fuels from vegetable oils, and vegetable oils were an early competitor to oil due to the difficulty of refining in the late 19th and early 20th century (at least relative to today). The hemp plant is so universally useful in manufacture of a wide range of industrial and consumer products, that it was a threat to dozens of industries with business interests in other raw materials and commodities.

                            The cultivation of THC-free hemp is still a highly restricted practice in the United States.

                            Analogies can be drawn to high sugar tariffs that support US sugar beet production in the Upper Midwest and sugar cane production in Hawaii and the US Gulf states/territories, and are also a boon to the corn industry (high fructose corn syrup).

                            The Europeans do the same thing with their own agricultural commodities - farmers are one of many powerful interests in the political frameworks in the US and Europe, and we see things such as "mountains of butter" in northwest Europe and "lakes of wine" in France, Italy, and Spain.

                            I'm not sure what coca is a competitor to in the US market - perhaps other stimulants (tobacco, coffee?). I don't see the same entrenched agricultural interests having been a factor in the banning of coca - it's safe use as coca leaf was something Americans were ignorant of, and when it arrived on the scene, it was in the form of highly addictive and dangerous powder/freebase cocaine, so more of a knee-jerk reaction to a plague that was entering society.

                            I'm sure there are pharmaceutical interests at work in the bans of cocaine - they make synthetic painkillers and narcotics that are high value added industries - cocaine is useful as a topical anesthetic, localized painkiller (kept on stock by US hospitals for nasal surgery, for example). I'm aware of its use in cocavina (wine mixed with cocaine) that was highly used and popular as a medicinal treatment in the 19th century (a Pope swore by it, and used it everyday).

                            Moving onto heroin - actually metabolized by the liver into morphine by the body. I see limited legalization/decriminalizations for products of the opium plant - there are tens of millions of people across the world who use opium in a socially acceptable way, with no more damage to the social fabric than say the use of marijuana in the US or coca leaf in the Andes.

                            Everybody in the world gets a fix somehow - the pharmacist is a dope dealer, just government sanctioned. People use/abuse prescription drugs to get some kind of fix they need to deal with the everyday, painful realities of life. Energy drinks, soda, coffee, cigarettes, alcohol, sex, food, whatever - everybody is looking for something to stimulate/depress/alter their brain somehow.

                            Makes life a little easier - no reason to have thousands dead each year and millions of lives ruined because we cannot conceive a way to discover practical, safe applications for certain plants that have been dragged through the dirt and demonized because somebody found a way to mess with what nature gave us.
                            "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              [QUOTE]
                              Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
                              Latin American organized drug syndicates are the winners. The people of North and Latin America are the losers.
                              And so the govtwins because it fuels thier legislation legitimatizing thier expenditures and taxation in the war against it.

                              From what I'm aware of - people with interests in the oil and timber industries were among those who demonized marijuana in the pursuit of profits. I believe Rudolf Diesel made his first fuels from vegetable oils, and vegetable oils were an early competitor to oil due to the difficulty of refining in the late 19th and early 20th century (at least relative to today). The hemp plant is so universally useful in manufacture of a wide range of industrial and consumer products, that it was a threat to dozens of industries with business interests in other raw materials and commodities.
                              Cotton was the main competitor of hemp, though it doesn't stand up to hemps durability. The fact that you could smoke some hemp for a high was cottons major weapon against it. Some of our founding father were hemp farmers, fought all the way by the cotton industry and the south. Think about it. Cotton can only be grown in the south, hemp can grow anywhere. The main factor was william randolf hearst who ran a campaign against hemp because he thought it would replace wood as a paper source, but IMO it was concerted effort.

                              The cultivation of THC-free hemp is still a highly restricted practice in the United States.
                              I know, its ridiculous.

                              Analogies can be drawn to high sugar tariffs that support US sugar beet production in the Upper Midwest and sugar cane production in Hawaii and the US Gulf states/territories, and are also a boon to the corn industry (high fructose corn syrup).
                              That is the same thing just a different twist, good call on that. HFCS is crap, but its king now, just like cotton.

                              I'm sure there are pharmaceutical interests at work in the bans of cocaine
                              An understatment....big pharma is on track to ban and control all kinds of stuff...its all about the money.

                              Moving onto heroin - actually metabolized by the liver into morphine by the body. I see limited legalization/decriminalizations for products of the opium plant - there are tens of millions of people across the world who use opium in a socially acceptable way, with no more damage to the social fabric than say the use of marijuana in the US or coca leaf in the Andes.

                              Everybody in the world gets a fix somehow - the pharmacist is a dope dealer, just government sanctioned. People use/abuse prescription drugs to get some kind of fix they need to deal with the everyday, painful realities of life. Energy drinks, soda, coffee, cigarettes, alcohol, sex, food, whatever - everybody is looking for something to stimulate/depress/alter their brain somehow.

                              Makes life a little easier - no reason to have thousands dead each year and millions of lives ruined because we cannot conceive a way to discover practical, safe applications for certain plants that have been dragged through the dirt and demonized because somebody found a way to mess with what nature gave us.
                              Good post! I'm all about it. I just wish more could see the logic in it.
                              Last edited by Blue; 05 Feb 11,, 05:45.

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