Taiwan should go its way

[jacksonjo]

Taiwan should go its way?
Of course it would be a very touching moment if Taiwan finally unifys with mainland ,for many Chinese or even non-Chinese.

When i was a kid,i without doubt wished Taiwan could come back to mainland,at that time i was too young and knew nothing about this world.But when you can read English,Japanese,Malay...you see many things that many folks cannot see,you know many things that many folks never hear of in their entire life,even in their several lives combined.
Your mind would probably never be the same.

Suddenly now there is another thought striking to my mind...regarding tiny Taiwan Island.
i just heard Chinese government passed a treason law concerning Taiwan issue and i just read with shocking that Chinese government detained some quarters who expressed some views that are...not quite in line with govenment's view(sorry i don't know what they wrote)...
it's also the first time that i heard there is a Great "Firewall" deployed by Chinese government to block some "undesirable" websites...interestingly,it told me that "wall" was made possible by technology from USA(need verification).

If those people really hold evil thing,they should be detained without question.
But acording to many news and forums,they are not that "hideous thing".
(i think somebody need to tell me more about it.If you have any clues,you may email to [email protected],would appreciate.Politics is never my interest,this time just curious.)

Cannot believe it!Is China like North Korea(who in our eyes is like a country in 1950s and is laughed at by many of us))?Will government come and question me because i write these words?
If it will,then i think this government is no longer the one i should show respect.Very simple,this kind of freedom is the basic characteristic of modern,open and democratic nation.(sorry i don't think USA is democratic enough,so pls don't refute me by saying that USA government also manipulate meida at times,although i do view it as more democratic than current mainland)

i know probably the president and its aids in Beijing have the following view:
Now many mainland people are still in a very backward and under-educated state,they cannot be disturbed by those "freedom",they don't understand those "freedom"....maybe they don't need freedom(i repeat,maybe they don't need freedom).

Imagine,a group of demonstrators take into the street yelling "down with Jiang Ze ming",well, for those open-minded and educated,it's just nothing,it's just another opinion expressed by a group of folks,and they would take it as reference(repeat,reference).Life goes on even there are thousands of such demonstrations.They have sound and 3-dimensional judgement.
But what would those under-educated,not-well-exposed folks think?they probably would take it as a very serious matter and wonder if Mr Jiang has some problem,further they would speculate if a war would break out...they would gossip it everywhere like monkeys(like folks in 1950s).Their life would be disturbed,the entire society would be in a unrest,economic activity would be effected.China would likely fall into recession...

Repeat,maybe they don't need freedom.Just like black slaves in history,at that time,if you show
extreme respect or bestow much freedom to them,they would probably laugh at you instead.Ape and modern human being are in different evolutionary stage.that's why i also very much appreciate USA (China or whoever) "invades" Iraq by whatever reason.modern human being should take some actions to facilitate ape evolutionary speed.

"down with Jiang Ze ming",imagine what those Chinese who are cursing habitually while playing pokers would think?
"down with Jiang Ze ming",imagine what those Chinese who are spitting to the roads while walking would think?
"down with Jiang Ze ming",imagine what those Chinese who are sitting in the roadside in the cities waiting for jobs would think?
"down with Jiang Ze ming",imagine what those Chinese who still have the ideology of 1970s would think?

They would gossip it everywhere like monkeys(repeat,like monkeys,like monkeys)...


But Chinese is no stupid and never an unwise race.Leaders in Beijing are well-educated,well-exposed (probably more modern than some in White House),how come they don't like a fully democratic nation?

So they still detain those people to maitain social stability even against these leaders' own will,such wise is not easily understood by many western folks.
If my analysis here is rubbish,then there is only one thing for sure:they detain them just for the sake of stablizing their power,just like those ancient stupid chinese emperors do.

Such society is a hell(literally) for who are open-minded,broad-minded,democracy-and-individiualism-savvy.

it would take many many years for these old generation to die out completely.

Therefore my last conclusion is that only when Pro Taiwan Independence Group is allowed to organized in mainland will it be the time for China mainland to talk about Taiwan unification.

*it would take many many years for these old generation to die out completely.(repeat)

That is,it may take 100 years to even talk about Taiwan re-union.
When the time comes,even mainland refuse to take Taiwan back,there should be many folks(including those inside Taiwan Island) would put up a demonstration to ask mainland to do it.

For the time being,Taiwan should go its way.
Even Taiwan can demand mainland to unify with it,that is,mainland and Taiwan unify together but under Taiwan government rule.Don't naive enough to think that because Taiwan is small it should necessarily be a "be-unified" object.
For maniland,military attack will never take Taiwan back;for Taiwan,military attack will never take mainland back.(well, they can,but let's see the consequence)

Taiwan should go its way.

If mainland maitains current disposition forever,then Taiwan shold go its way forever.

(repeat*)

jackson jo

[bull]

Instigating taiwan is the only way to stop the chineese bandwagon.But at a huge
price.

[oneman28]

Taiwan leader is getting smarter

Chen Shuibian said Taiwan can only choose peaces. He also expressed his desire to talk with President and Chariman Hu.

Sounds he finally knows that Taiwan independence is an impossible mission because China is much stronger.

Chen is a person who wants to leave something positive in the history, and he only has 3 years left in his position. He had to do this ASAP. Otherwise all his records will be negative. He finally understand this.


I know many will get disappointed with this news.

[Jay]

Taiwan always wanted peace, its PRC that points most of its missiles on Taipei..

Sounds he finally knows that Taiwan independence is an impossible mission because China is much stronger.

Peace does not acknowledge the fact that China is stronger nor their will for independence has subsided. what kind of lopsided logic is this??

Even after 20 years of rapid development and massive defence budget China is not in a superior overhelming position viz a viz Taiwan.

Chen is a person who wants to leave something positive in the history, and he only has 3 years left in his position. He had to do this ASAP. Otherwise all his records will be negative. He finally understand this.

BS, same goes for Hu and Jiang. So Jiang's history is negative now, as he didnt acheive peace with Taiwan??

I know many will get disappointed with this news.

Yep, regardless of peace, Taiwan is going to stay as a independent republic and that might not go well with the commies.

[Guest]

For I while I wanted India & Nepal to unite. But then I realized that they are separate for some reasons.

[Aryan]

Taiwan and China are only separated by political reasons, not cultural, racial or ethnic. So on that basis, I can't really see the point in Taiwan declaring independence. China has already moved away from communism, and its only a matter of time it becomes a "democratic" nation. When it does, what will the justification of taiwan being independent be?

[hammer]

Taiwan and China are only separated by political reasons, not cultural, racial or ethnic.

Are you saying that people with different cultural, racial or ethnic backgrounds cannot or should not exist as a single nation?

what will the justification of taiwan being independent be?

For one, the Taiwanese people might not want to join mainland China . What if they want to exist as an independent nation ?

[Aryan]

Are you saying that people with different cultural, racial or ethnic backgrounds cannot or should not exist as a single nation?

For one, the Taiwanese people might not want to join mainland China . What if they want to exist as an independent nation ?

The Taiwan/China split only occured because of political reasons, if the nationalists had taken over China along with Taiwan would there be an independence issue?

[Bill]

It doesn't really matter what might've happened.

What matters is what did happen.

We have two sides with two different ultimate goals....and they are mutually exclusive.

" what will the justification of taiwan being independent be?"

Apparently, it's what they want. I'm not gonna be the ones to tell them they have to be slaves to communism. They have as much right to be free as any American, and i for my part, support them in their cause.

[troung]

I support Taiwan as well. They are their own nation with their own flag, military, currency and leadership. Allowing nations to get swallowed up caused WW-2.

Much of the "issue" is a smokescreen for the Communist party to play around with a make people look out rather then looking in. Communism is very hard to keep in place without an enemy or a reason why life is not good and they can't decide who their leaders will be.

I do wish Bush would put on a cowboy hat get on the bandwagon and say what everyone knows, Taiwan is a nation and free to choice its own course.

[Aryan]

Imposing communism forcibly on Taiwan would be wrong but that wasn't the point I was making. The Taiwan-China issue is just the Asian version of the East West German situation - one nation divided by two political ideologies. When you look at it that way, you realise how redundant the concept of taiwanese independence is...how many of you would support West Germany declaring itself an independent nation?

[Franco Lolan]

Imposing communism forcibly on Taiwan would be wrong but that wasn't the point I was making. The Taiwan-China issue is just the Asian version of the East West German situation - one nation divided by two political ideologies. When you look at it that way, you realise how redundant the concept of taiwanese independence is...how many of you would support West Germany declaring itself an independent nation?

Oh no sir. In no way is it "just the Asian version of the East West German situation."

As the PRC's 1993 White Paper on the matter, "The Taiwan Question and Reunification of China", (http://www.china.org.cn/english/7953.htm) states:

"The "two German states formula" cannot be applied to the settlement of the Taiwan issue. Some people in Taiwan have suggested that cross-Straits relations should be dealt with according to the "two German states formula," since Germany was divided into two states after World War II, and was later reunified. This proposal shows a misunderstanding of history and reality. The division of Germany after the war and the temporary division between the two sides of the Straits are questions of a different nature, the difference lying mainly in three aspects. The first is the reasons for, and the nature of, the division. After its defeat in World War II in 1945, Germany was divided into zones occupied separately by the four victorious nations of the United States, Britain, France and the Soviet Union according to a declaration on the defeat of Germany and the assumption of supreme authority and the subsequent Potsdam Agreement. The reunification of Germany became a focus of the confrontation in Europe between the United States and the Soviet Union during the Cold War. The Federal Republic of Germany and the German Democratic Republic were established in the zones occupied by the United States, Britain and France, and that occupied by the Soviet Union. Thus Germany was divided into two states. Obviously, the German question arose entirely from external factors, while the Taiwan issue, left over by China's civil war, is a matter of China's internal affairs. The second aspect is the difference in status between the two under international law. Germany was divided according to a series of international treaties during and after World War II, while the Taiwan question involves provisions of the Cairo Declaration, the Potsdam Proclamation and other international treaties, stating that Japan must return Taiwan, which it had stolen from China, to the Chinese. The third is the difference between the two in their actual conditions of existence."

"how many of you would support West Germany declaring itself an independent nation?"
It was an independent state.

[Franco Lolan]

China has already moved away from communism, and its only a matter of time it becomes a "democratic" nation. When it does, what will the justification of taiwan being independent be?

LOL. "just a matter of time". If so, the regime will change. Say goodbye to the PRC.

[troung]

Imposing communism forcibly on Taiwan would be wrong but that wasn't the point I was making. The Taiwan-China issue is just the Asian version of the East West German situation - one nation divided by two political ideologies. When you look at it that way, you realise how redundant the concept of taiwanese independence is...

One nation trying to be free and keep its people free. There is nothing redundant about being free...

how many of you would support West Germany declaring itself an independent nation?

West Germany was its own nation. We were prepared to fire nukes to keep it that way.

-------
It is funny that so many of the same people who want the Kashmir to get out from India want Taiwan to forcebly join China...

[Franco Lolan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aryan
Imposing communism forcibly on Taiwan would be wrong but that wasn't the point I was making. The Taiwan-China issue is just the Asian version of the East West German situation - one nation divided by two political ideologies. When you look at it that way, you realise how redundant the concept of taiwanese independence is...how many of you would support West Germany declaring itself an independent nation?



Oh no sir. In no way is it "just the Asian version of the East West German situation."

As the PRC's 1993 White Paper on the matter, "The Taiwan Question and Reunification of China", (http://www.china.org.cn/english/7953.htm) states:

"The "two German states formula" cannot be applied to the settlement of the Taiwan issue. Some people in Taiwan have suggested that cross-Straits relations should be dealt with according to the "two German states formula," since Germany was divided into two states after World War II, and was later reunified. This proposal shows a misunderstanding of history and reality. The division of Germany after the war and the temporary division between the two sides of the Straits are questions of a different nature, the difference lying mainly in three aspects. The first is the reasons for, and the nature of, the division. After its defeat in World War II in 1945, Germany was divided into zones occupied separately by the four victorious nations of the United States, Britain, France and the Soviet Union according to a declaration on the defeat of Germany and the assumption of supreme authority and the subsequent Potsdam Agreement. The reunification of Germany became a focus of the confrontation in Europe between the United States and the Soviet Union during the Cold War. The Federal Republic of Germany and the German Democratic Republic were established in the zones occupied by the United States, Britain and France, and that occupied by the Soviet Union. Thus Germany was divided into two states. Obviously, the German question arose entirely from external factors, while the Taiwan issue, left over by China's civil war, is a matter of China's internal affairs. The second aspect is the difference in status between the two under international law. Germany was divided according to a series of international treaties during and after World War II, while the Taiwan question involves provisions of the Cairo Declaration, the Potsdam Proclamation and other international treaties, stating that Japan must return Taiwan, which it had stolen from China, to the Chinese. The third is the difference between the two in their actual conditions of existence."

"how many of you would support West Germany declaring itself an independent nation?"
It was an independent state.