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BertSchlossberg
10 May 05,, 18:09
I'm not sure where this thread should go and I would not be surpised to find it moved. I am certain that this posting will be astounding to most everybody but |I amvery interested -
Quite a bit has been recently learned about the shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flt. 007, and, most recently, about the rescue and retention by the Soviets of its 269 passengers and crew - most of whom, we believe, are alive to this day. Within the last three years, Russian partcipants of the drama have made startling admissions concerning the successful deception of the US, Japan, and South Korea as to the fact that they had already found, and gutted the aircraft, while pretending themselves to join in the search then underway. We know now that the reason why there had never been found any trace of passengers, alive or dead, at the supposed crash site, is that they had already been abducted by the Soviets. You can get more information about this incident from our website - www.rescue007.org

We are now in the process of locating and informing family members of the passengers and crew. If anyone viewing this posting should know any of the family members, we would appreciate it if you would give us their contact information or, alternatively, for privacy's sake, give them our contact info. Thank you for your help!

Bert Schlossberg, International Director, International Committee for the Rescue of KAL 007 Survivors, www.rescue007.org
__________________

Bluesman
10 May 05,, 20:55
I'm not sure where this thread should go and I would not be surpised to find it moved. I am certain that this posting will be astounding to most everybody but |I amvery interested -
Quite a bit has been recently learned about the shootdown of Korean Air Lines Flt. 007, and, most recently, about the rescue and retention by the Soviets of its 269 passengers and crew - most of whom, we believe, are alive to this day. Within the last three years, Russian partcipants of the drama have made startling admissions concerning the successful deception of the US, Japan, and South Korea as to the fact that they had already found, and gutted the aircraft, while pretending themselves to join in the search then underway. We know now that the reason why there had never been found any trace of passengers, alive or dead, at the supposed crash site, is that they had already been abducted by the Soviets. You can get more information about this incident from our website - www.rescue007.org

We are now in the process of locating and informing family members of the passengers and crew. If anyone viewing this posting should know any of the family members, we would appreciate it if you would give us their contact information or, alternatively, for privacy's sake, give them our contact info. Thank you for your help!

Bert Schlossberg, International Director, International Committee for the Rescue of KAL 007 Survivors, www.rescue007.org
__________________

Well, HELL, man, welcome to WAB, and bringing this important story to our attention, you big ole whacko simpleton.

Tell us one with a princess and enchanted gingerbread houses.

Jayzus.

Bill
10 May 05,, 21:51
Top, where do these nuts come from?

SOCOM have any clue? ;)

dalem
10 May 05,, 22:19
To get some humor out of a tragedy, I remember an editorial cartoon from back then that had a stereotypical "Ivan" reading a news report about an aggressive Western jumbo jet ramming a peaceful Soviet missile...

-dale

BertSchlossberg
10 May 05,, 22:42
Dale, That's a great mental picture. I wish I saw that. I wish I had that!

Well, I can't say that we've gotten off to the politest of conversations but I know you've got good hearts! Just for starters with more to come if there is interest -

Here's what went on in the cockpit AFTER the one of the two Soviet Anabs r-98 meduium range air to airs launched by Major Osipovich detonated 50 meters behind KAL 007 - leaving punctures when all put together only a 1 3/4 hole. This is the transcript (intersperced with my commentary) from the Cockpit Voice Recorder, or rather only a minute and 4 seconds, of the transcript that the Russians handed over under pressure. You will notice that control was regained and KAL 007 began it's slow descent to the surface of the sea.

From FAQ 5 from the Committee for the Rescue web site http://www.rescue007.org/faq.htm

"5. What happened to KAL 007 when the missile exploded? How do the tapes help us to understand?
In a symphony, each instrument has its own individual "story line", yet there is one overriding theme that includes them all. So it is with the Symphony in DFDR. Each line of the Digital Flight Data Recorder (DFDR) graph tells us a coherent story and with all together, a saga whose theme is Escape From Destruction!

Each instrument playing its own line takes us more deeply into the understanding of just how KAL 007 escaped destruction. The instruments:

Every word spoken by Pilot-in-Command, Chun Byung-In, Co-Pilot and First Officer, Son Dong-Hui, and Flight Engineer, Kim Eui-Dong, recorded for us by the Cockpit Voice Recorder.
The condition of sixteen parameters picked up by sensors reporting the different functions of the aircraft recorded for us by the Digital Flight Data Recorder.
For this discussion, refer to the two graphs, Plot 1 and Plot 2 (prepared by Laboratoire BEA). The times appear in four-second intervals at the bottom of each chart.

At 18:26:02 (06:26:02 Sakhalin time), Maj. Osipovich's ANAB radar-guided air-to-air missile explodes 50 meters behind and slightly to the right of KAL 007's tail.

The nose begins to pitch up immediately (Plot 1, line 2) to be followed by a more gradual increase in altitude (Plot 1, line 1). These changes appear on the crew's instruments. They may also have sensed them. Immediately upon missile detonation, the jumbo jet begins to experience buffeting (yawing) as the dual channel yaw damper is damaged (Plot 2, line 6). Yawing would not have occurred if either No. 1 or No. 2 hydraulic systems were fully operational. What does not happen that should have happened is that the control column (Plot 1, line 3) does not thrust forward upon impact (it should have done so, as the plane was on autopilot -- plot 2, line 8 -- to bring down the plane to its former altitude of 35,000 feet). This failure of the autopilot to correct the rise in altitude indicates that hydraulic system No. 3, which operates the autopilot actuator, a system controlling the plane's elevators, was damaged or out. KAL 007's airspeed (Plot 1, line 4) and acceleration rate (Plot 1, line 5) both begin to decrease as the plane begins to climb.

At 18:26:06, Capt. Chun yells out, "What happened?" First Officer Son responds, "What?" Two seconds later, Chun yells, "Retard throttles." Son responds, "Engines normal, sir." (This indicates that Maj. Osipovich's heat seeking missile has missed its mark.) KAL 007 continues its climb (it will do so until it reaches 38,250 ft. in altitude -- Plot 1, line 1) when at twenty seconds after missile detonation a click is heard in the cabin -- which is identified as the "automatic pilot disconnect warning" sound. Pilot or co-pilot has disconnected the autopilot and is now manually thrusting the control column forward (Plot 1, line 3) in order to bring down the plane. But we see that though the autopilot has been turned "off" (Plot 2, line 8), manual mode will not kick in for another twenty seconds (Plot 2, line 9). This failure of manual to engage upon being commanded indicates again, failure in hydraulic systems No. 1 and No. 2. But there is progress, of sorts! Though still rising in altitude, with the thrusting forward of the control column, KAL 007's nose begins to come down. That is, pitch is being corrected (Plot 1, line 2). Nevertheless, Capt. Chun absorbed with the danger of the rising altitude, calls out, "Altitude is going up!... Altitude is going up!" (18:26:22 and 18:26:24) But immediately another problem presents itself.

Chun (18:26:25): Speed brake is coming out!

Son (18:26:26): What? What?

Chun (18:26:29): Check it out!

But, according to the DFDR, the speed brake was not coming out. The pilots immediately return to the main problem.

Son (18:26:33): I am not able to drop altitude -- now unable.

Chun (18:26:38): Altitude is going up.

Chun (18:26:40): This is not working. This is not working.

And here, a change takes place.

If we could perceive what tapes cannot reveal, we would identify -- and identify with -- the transition from utter despair to jubilation through to quiet confidence and determination.

At 18:26:41, Capt. Chun apparently orders First Officer Son to again disengage the autopilot "manually." Son appears to do so at the same time he despairingly says, "cannot do manually" (18:26:42) and a second later reiterates, "not working manually also." But, at that moment two things happen. The sound of the autopilot disconnect warning is heard once again and the autopilot kicks in to the desired manual mode (Plot 2, line 9). Capt. Chun is once again in control.

At 18:26:45, First Officer Son again reports, "Engines are normal, sir." Once again, there is confirmation that the heat-seeking missile failed to hit its mark.

Though Capt. Chun does not move the control column any more forward than it already is (Plot 1, line 3), the altitude (Plot 1, line 1) begins to come down and is now in line with the pitch (Plot 1, line 2). Both airspeed (Plot 1, line 4) and acceleration (Plot 1, line 5) increase rapidly as KAL 007 begins a quick descent.

Still in descent, Capt. Chun and Flight Engineer, Kim Eui-Dong blurt out (one second apart):

Kim (18:36:50): Is it power compression?

Chun (18:36:51): Is that right?

Kim (18:36:52): All or both.

Chun (18:36:53): Is that right?

For the next nine seconds there is silence, but Capt. Chun will be at the height of activity. As KAL 007 reaches its peak of acceleration and descends to slightly under pre-missile altitude, Capt. Chun brings the nose up for about eight seconds (Plot 1, line 2), acceleration decreases markedly and then levels out at pre-missile rate.

Prior to the eight-second pull-up, First Officer Son is on the High Frequency Radio No. 1 calling Tokyo Air Traffic Control Center (Plot 2, line 7):

Son (18:26:57): Tokyo Radio, Korean Air Zero Zero Seven

Tokyo (18:27:02): Korean Air Zero Zero Seven, Tokyo

Son (18:27:04): Roger, Korean Air Zero Zero Seven... (unreadable) Ah, we (are experiencing)...

Chun, interjecting (18:27:09): ALL COMPRESSION

Son (18:27:10): Rapid compressions. Descend to one zero thousand.

As First Officer Son's call to Tokyo concludes, Capt. Chun begins his gradual descent, which will eventually take KAL 007 to a water-ditching off the shores of tiny Moneron Island.

Though yawing has continued through to the end of the tape and, presumably, to the end of the flight, all the other major parameters indicate that KAL 007 exhibits a good measure of airworthiness and control. The dive has been stopped and the jumbo jet is in a slight descent. Pitch is in line with the angle of descent. "Indicated Air Speed" (IAS, Plot 1, line 4) has returned almost exactly to what it was prior to missile detonation (310 knots), after rapid acceleration in dive, and rapid deceleration at the end of the eight-second pull-up, KAL 007 is now at steady, normal acceleration -- as it was prior to missile detonation -- and the autopilot, now in the command position off, is operating as it should with Capt. Chun in manual control. But there is work to do at hand. From the flight deck (the transcript does not identify the voices):

18:27:20: Now... We have to set this

18:27:23: speed

18:27:26: Stand by, stand by, stand by, set!

KAL 007, with its flight crew of three, 240 passengers including 22 children, 20 cabin attendants, and 6 "deadheaders" (repositioning flight personnel), has escaped destruction!

Note: Maintaining control of KAL 007 with three of its four hydraulic systems damaged or out might well have been difficult but by no means impossible. Appendix E (in Rescue 007) contains the transcript of an aircraft being flown eighteen miles with all hydraulics out.

G. Norris and M. Wagner in Boeing (MBT Publishing, Osceolo, WI 1998) explain (pg. 128) the safety benefits of multiple redundant hydraulic systems for the 747 and give an example.

The explanation -- "The hydraulics provided actuation for all the primary flight controls; all secondary flight controls (except leading edge flaps); and landing gear retraction, extension, gear steering, and wheel braking. Systems 1 and 4 could be used for all purposes [KAL 007's hydraulic system no. 4 was undamaged], while systems 2 and 3 were normally used for flight control only... System 4 also had a third electrical power source. Each primary flight control axis received power from all four hydraulic systems."

The example -- In July of 1971, Pan Am's flagship aircraft, a Boeing 747, registered N747PA, hit a light gantry upon take-off from San Francisco International Airport. The crew had misjudged the speed of the aircraft and the length of the runway. As the plane pulled up sharply in an attempt to clear it, the rear end of the fuselage came down on the gantry. The aircraft continued to take off and with the gantry stuck in its cargo area and with three of the hydraulic systems destroyed. The jumbo jet circled the airport and made a safe landing -- still with the gantry stuck through its cargo area and only one hydraulic system operational."

BertSchlossberg
11 May 05,, 06:32
forgot to post the charts for Plot 1 and Plot 2 of the post above so that you can enter into the cockpit for the beginning ride down.

Plot 1 - http://www.rescue007.org/chart8.htm
Plot 2 - http://www.rescue007.org/chart9.htm

barrowaj
11 May 05,, 08:12
I was too young to remember KAL 007, but I can clearly remember the Newsweek cover with bodies Iranian bodies floating on the water in the late 80s.

WeeGiZ
11 May 05,, 10:48
What was the problem for KAL007 to fly into Soviet airspace and not to comply with demands to turn around?(I think there were those? :confused: ) I can see, that plane was controllable...o did "Bad guys" poped-up from nowhere, shot it down without explanation, end of story?
OT: it couldn't be bad experience,that forced VVS to shoot it down, with "Bin Laden type" guys at the time :eek:

BertSchlossberg
11 May 05,, 12:20
What was the problem for KAL007 to fly into Soviet airspace and not to comply with demands to turn around?(I think there were those? :confused: ) I can see, that plane was controllable...o did "Bad guys" poped-up from nowhere, shot it down without explanation, end of story?
OT: it couldn't be bad experience,that forced VVS to shoot it down, with "Bin Laden type" guys at the time :eek:

WeeGIZ,

Here is the transcript of the actual shootdown of KAL 007. I've combined the National Security Agency electronic intercept of Maj. Gennadie Osipovich in his Sukhoi 15 TM Flagon interceptor with the transcripts, handed over by the Russian Federation to the International Civil Aviation Organization in 1992, of the Soviet Ground command and Osipovich's ground controller. See http://www.rescue007.org/shootdown.htm for pictures and explanations of the military personnel involved. You will also note Osipovich's statement in 1996 in my commentary to transcripts where he retracts his former statements which indicated that he believed it was a military plane he attacked. In that interview, he also retracted his statement that he had fired tracers to warn KAL 007. In 1992, Yeltsin revealed 1983 Top Secret Memos http://www.rescue007.org/TopSecretMemos.htm from, among others, KGB head Chebrikov and Defence Minister Dmitri Ustinov that gives as a reason ( one of the reasons) for their concealing the fact that they had retrieved the Black Boxes was that the Cockpit Voice Recorder would show that there were no emergency frequency transmissions from the Soviet intercepter to KAL 007. Much more can be said about the fact that KAL 007 was not sufficiently warned but enough for now. Here is the combined transcript of the shootdown:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Picure of General Anatoli Kornukov, courtesy of Pravda.RU

Kornukov: (18:21)
Gerasimenko, cut the horseplay at the command post, what is that noise there? I repeat the combat task: fire the missiles, fire on target 60-65 [KAL 007] destroy target 60-65.

Gerasimenko: (18:22)
Wilco.

Kornukov:
Comply and get Tarasov here.

Take control of the MiG 23 from Smyrnykh, call sign 163, call sign 163, he is behind the target at the moment. Destroy the target!

Gerasimenko:
Task received. Destroy target 60-65 with missile fire, accept control of fighter from Smyrnykh.

Kornukov:
Carry out the task, destroy [it]!

Flight 007 was to get a brief reprieve. As the jumbo jet climbed, its speed decreased, engine power being diverted from velocity to lift, and Osipovich’s Sukhoi 15 quickly overtook and was soon abreast of the passenger plane. Major Osipovich showed irritation as he communicated with his flight controller, Titovnin.

Osipovich: (18:22:02)
The target is decreasing speed.

Osipovich: (18:22:17)
I am going around it. I’m already moving in front of the target.

Titovnin:
Increase speed, 805 [call sign of Osipovich’s Sukhoi].

Osipovich: (18:22:23)
I have increased speed.

Titovnin:
Has the target increased speed, yes?

Osipovich: (18:22:29)
No, it is decreasing speed.

Titovnin:
805, open fire on target.

Osipovich: (18:22:42)
It should have been earlier. How can I chase it? I’m already abeam of the target.
For a look into Osipovich's state of mind at this point in his pursuit of KAL 007, click here. These were his thoughts given at an interview with "Izvestiya" newspaper eight years after the shootdown.

Titovnin:
Roger, if possible, take up a position for attack.

Osipovich: (18:22:55)
Now I have to fall back a bit from the target.

Osipovich’s irritation with his controller reflects the fact that, in contrast with the freedom of initiative given to an American pilot in combat, a Soviet pilot must be “vectored” and commanded for almost every move he makes.

KAL 007 leveled off at 18:23 at 35,000 feet. Now it would have only 3 minutes of flying time before Osipovich’s “Anab” medium range air-to-air missile would come streaking toward it from the rear. And, it was now General Kornukov’s turn to exhibit irritation and concern. From his communication to Gerasimenko, it is clear that KAL 007 was shot down by the Soviets not because it posed a threat to them, but because it was escaping.

Kornukov:
Oh, [obscenities] how long does it take him to get into attack position, he is already getting out into neutral waters. Engage afterburner immediately. Bring in the MiG 23 as well... While you are wasting time it will fly right out.

With back-up from the MiG 23 (call sign 163), and at a distance of eight kilometers, Major Osipovich executes what he believes will be the destruction of KAL 007 (he has distanced himself from the target so that his interceptor will not be struck by fragments of the exploding passenger plane).

Here again we can jump into Osipovich's mind at this crucial juncture of the pursuit of flight 007. Click here for more of his thoughts from the aforementioned 1991 "Izvestiya" interview.

Titovnin:
805, try to destroy the target with cannons.

Osipovich: (18:22:37)
I am dropping back. Now I will try a rocket.

Titovnin:
Roger.

MiG 23 (163): (18:23:49)
Twelve kilometers to the target. I see both [the Soviet interceptor piloted by Osipovich and KAL 007].

Titovnin:
805, approach target and destroy target.

Osipovich: (18:24:22)
Roger, I am in lock-on.

Titovnin:
805, are you closing on the target?

Osipovich: (18:25:11)
I am closing on the target, am in lock-on. Distance to target is eight kilometers.

Titovnin:
Afterburner.

Titovnin:
AFTERBURNER, 805!

Osipovich: (18:25:16)
I have already switched it on.

Titovnin:
Launch!



Picture of Sukhoi 15 TM Flagon

For a fascinating look (and listen) into the cockpit of KAL 007, and into the unfolding drama leading to Escape from Destruction, click here for FAQ #5 - "What happened to KAL 007 when the missile exploded?" http://www.rescue007.org/faq.htm#5

Osipovich: (18:26:20)
I have executed the launch.

Osipovich: (18:26:22)
The target is destroyed.

Titovnin:
Break off attack to the right, heading 360.

Osipovich: (18:26:27)
I am breaking off attack.
In 1996, Osipovich would reverse his previous denials that he knew that the "target" he had downed was a civilian passenger plane.

"I saw two rows of windows and knew that this was a Boeing. I knew this was a civilian plane. But for me this meant nothing. It is easy to turn a civilian type of plane into one for military use." (New York Times interview, September 9, 1996)

WeeGiZ
11 May 05,, 14:28
Thank you. do you have any transcriptions BEFORE mmm atack sequence was initiated? just after KAL007 entered Soviet airspace?

leib10
12 May 05,, 00:03
To get some humor out of a tragedy, I remember an editorial cartoon from back then that had a stereotypical "Ivan" reading a news report about an aggressive Western jumbo jet ramming a peaceful Soviet missile...

-dale

Typical Soviet reasoning. ;)

BertSchlossberg
12 May 05,, 08:00
Thank you. do you have any transcriptions BEFORE mmm atack sequence was initiated? just after KAL007 entered Soviet airspace?

Yes, WeeGiZ, there are transcipts chronicalling the events before the attack sequence - as well as startling transcripts of the futile attempts of the Soviets to find and finish off KAL 007 after the initial attack sequence. The pre-attack transcripts, which are the Soviet High and lower Command communications, pick up KAL 007 after the airliner had coasted out of Soviet airspace over Kamchatka and had entered international airspace over the Sea of Okhotsk. Four sets of Soviet intercepters based on Kamchatka had failed to intercept KAL 007 and now the PVO (Soviet Air Defence units) based on Sakhalin which KAL 007 was fast approaching, was called into action. These involved two Sukhoi 15 and two Mig 23 interceptors, the lead of which was taken by Major Osipovich in his Sukhoi 15. Again it is best to go to the website after reading this posting for the explanation of the personnel and the pictures. That location is http://www.rescue007.org/stalk.htm .

General Kornukov (to Military District Headquarters-Gen. Kamenski): (5:47)
...simply destroy even if it is over neutral waters? Are the orders to destroy it over neutral waters? Oh, well.

General Kornukov: (6:13)
Chaika (Call sign for Far East Military District Air Force)

Titovnin:
Yes, sir. He (Major Osipovich in his Sukhoi 15 TM Flagon interceptor) sees [it] on the radar screen, He sees [it] on the screen, He has locked on, he is locked on, he is locked on.

Kornukov:
No answer, Roger. Be ready to fire, the target is 45-50 km to the State border.

[I]Apparently, the Russians were prepared to fire while KAL 007 was over international waters. It had previously passed over territorial space of Kamchatka.

Kornukov:
Officer in charge at the command post, please, for report.

Titovnin:
Hello.

Kornukov:
Kornukov, please put Kamenski on the line. Kornukov, ... General Kornukov, put General Kamenski on.

General Kamenski:
Kamenski here.

Kornukov: (6:14)
Comrade General, Kornukov, good morning. I am reporting the situation. Target 60- 65 (KAL 007 "intruder") is over Terpenie Bay (Terpenie Bay is on the east coast of Sakhalin Island. KAL 007 had thus successfuly traversed Kamchatka, after entering over Petropavlovsk, and crossing the Sea of Okhotsk, it was about to enter Sakhalin's airspace.) tracking 240, 30 km from the State border, the fighter from Sokol is 6 km away. Locked on, orders were given to arm weapons. The target is not responding, to identify, he cannot identify it visually because it is still dark, but he is still locked on.

Kamenski:
We must find out, maybe it is some civilian craft or God knows who.

Kornukov:
What civilian? has flown over Kamchatka! It [came] from the ocean without identification. I am giving the order to attack if it crosses the State border.

Kamenski:
Go ahead now, I order…?

[I]And at another location—at Smyrnykh Air Force Base in central Sakhalin…

Lt. Col. Novoseletski: (6:12)
Does he see it on the radar or not?

Titovnin: (6:13)
He sees it on the screen, he sees it on the screen. He is locked on.

Novoseletski:
He is locked on.

Titovnin:
Locked on. Well, Roger.

Titovnin: (6:14)
Hello.

Lt. Col. Maistrenko:
Maistrenko!

Titovnin:
Maistrenko Comrade Colonel, that is, Titovnin.

Maistrenko: (6:15)
Yes.

Titovnin:
The commander has given orders that if the border is violated—destroy [the target].

Maistrenko:
…May [be] a passenger [aircraft]. All necessary steps must be taken to identify it.

Titovnin:
Identification measures are being taken, but the pilot cannot see. It’s dark. Even now it’s still dark.

Maistrenko:
Well, okay. The task is correct. If there are no lights—it cannot be a passenger [aircraft].

Maistrenko was incorrect but Osipovich had not reported at the time to his controller that he had seen KAL 007's lights. He was to acknowledge this in his Sept. 9, 1996, New York Times interview :

"'I was just next to him, on the same altitude, 150 meters to 200 meters away,' he recalled in conversations with a reporter this weekend. From the flashing lights and the configuration of the windows, he recognized the aircraft as a civilian type of plane, he said. 'I saw two rows of windows and knew that this was a Boeing,' he said. 'I knew this was a civilian plane. But for me this meant nothing. It is easy to turn a civilian type of plane into one for military use.'"

Picture of Osipovich in 1983 Picture of Osipovich in 1996


Titovnin:
You confirm the task?

Maistrenko:
Eh?

Titovnin:
You confirm the task?

Maistrenko:
Yes.

Titovnin:
Roger.

And at yet another location…

Kornukov: (6:21)
Gerasimenko!

Lt. Col. Gerasimenko:
Gerasimenko here.

Kornukov:
Gerasimenko, cut the horseplay at the command post, what is that noise there? I repeat the combat task: fire missiles, fire on target 60-65 destroy target 60-65.

Gerasimenko:
Wilco.

Kornukov:
Comply and get Tarasov here. Take control of the MiG 23 from Smyrnykh, call sign 163, call sign 163, he is behind the target at the moment. Destroy the target!

Gerasimenko:
Task received. Destroy target 60-65 with missile fire, accept control of fighter from Smyrnykh.

Kornukov:
Carry out the task, destroy [it]!

Gerasimenko:
…Comrade General… Gone to attack position.

Kornukov: (6:24)
Oh, [obscenities], how long [does it take him] to go to attack position, he is already getting out into neutral waters. Engage afterburner immediately. Bring in the MiG 23 as well... While you are wasting time, it will fly right out.

Gerasimenko

Gerasimenko:
Here.

Kornukov:
So, 23 is going behind, his radar sights are engaged, draw yours off to the right immediately after the attack. Has he fired or not?

Gerasimenko:
Not yet, not at all.

Kornukov:
Why?

Gerasimenko:
He is closing in, going on the attack. 163 is coming in, observing both.

Kornukov:
Okay, Roger, understood, so bring in 163 in behind Osipovich to guarantee destruction.

WeeGiZ
12 May 05,, 12:06
Mr.Bert,
Thank you for your answer - i will check that website, of course.
For me it's kinda weird that radio communication between VVS and KAL007 wasn't established, because with their airport KAL007 was radiomessaging...
Anyway it was a crime to shoot down civilian airplane..

BertSchlossberg
08 Jun 05,, 23:04
I was too young to remember KAL 007, but I can clearly remember the Newsweek cover with bodies Iranian bodies floating on the water in the late 80s.

Sorry, Barrowaj, for passing your posting without a response posting. Yes, The Iranian airbus shootdown by the U.S.S, Vincennes produced many bodies in contrast with the zero bodies of the shootdown and supposed destruction of KAL 007. Her is a comparison of both shootdowns along with other similar instances ( taken from my book Rescue 007: The Untold Story of KAL 007 and its Survivors)

"Case One. Air India Boeing 747 Flight 182 was blown up by a terrorist bomb while flying above the North Atlantic near the coast of Ireland on June 23, 1985. It was then at the altitude of 31,000 feet, about 4,000 feet less than that of KAL 007 when it was hit. Flight 182 plunged into the sea, killing all 329 passengers and crew. That same day, 123 bodies were recovered, and the next day eight more were recovered. Four months later, another body was recovered, strapped to its seat in a section of the fuselage lifted from the ocean bottom. The bodies were described by British Royal Navy doctor, Lt. Richard Cribb as “badly shattered and broken but all in one piece.”2 Over 40 percent of the passengers of Flight 182 were recovered, and from a depth of about 6,700 feet beneath the ocean surface. Debris was dispersed across four miles of sea bottom,

[ 1 Prior to the downing of KAL 007 on September 1, 1983, a Boeing 747 had never crashed at sea, making it more difficult for investigators and general public alike to imagine what the aftermath might be.

2 A. P. dispatch, Deseret News, June 24, 1985.
and for a month luggage and other debris could be seen floating on the Irish Sea. Search operations had lasted four months.]

Case Two. A South African Airlines Boeing 747 crashed into the Indian Ocean on November 28, 1987. Aircraft debris, luggage, and bodies were scattered over 150 square miles and to the great depth of 12,000 feet. At least 15 of the 159 passenger and crew bodies were recovered—that is, about ten percent. Much luggage and debris were seen floating on the ocean surface for days. The search continued for one year.

Case Three. On July 3, 1988, during Operation Earnest Will, over 200 people were killed when the U.S.S. Vincennes, an Aegis class cruiser, shot down an Iranian Airbus passenger plane over the Persian Gulf toward the conclusion of the Iraq-Iran War. Many intermingled bodies and pieces of luggage were retrieved from the water.

Case Four. On January 28, 1986, at a height of 38,000 feet—3000 feet higher than KAL 007 when it was rocketed—the Space Shuttle Challenger experienced an explosion of such magnitude that parts of the space craft were hurled to an altitude of 52,800 feet (ten miles high!). This is the largest non-nuclear explosion that has ever occurred. “Yet, despite an explosive inferno that would make a Soviet rocket detonation (involving perhaps seventy pounds of explosives, the amount of the Anab missiles of the type fired at KAL 007 contain) seem like a firecracker, searches soon recovered more than twenty tons of the Challenger wreckage.” The bodies of all seven crew members were recovered— 100% recovery rate—mangled but all identifiable.

Case Five. July 17, 1996. Trans World Airlines Flight 800, a Boeing 747, exploded possibly due to mechanical causes in the air over the Atlantic.4 All 230 passengers and crew perished. All 230 passengers and crew were recovered and identified over a one-year period, the last two being identified through DNA analysis.

The case of KAL 007. On September 1, 1983, rocketed at 35,000 feet over Sakhalin Island. Aircraft remains and other debris located on the surface and at shallow depths of Tatar Straits ranging from 656 feet (200 meters) to 1,640 feet (800 meters).
Luggage recovered at sites—0
Bodies recovered at sites—0
Percentage of recovered bodies to passengers—0

Speedy
15 Jun 05,, 18:17
What was the problem for KAL007 to fly into Soviet airspace and not to comply with demands to turn around?(I think there were those? :confused: ) I can see, that plane was controllable...o did "Bad guys" poped-up from nowhere, shot it down without explanation, end of story?
OT: it couldn't be bad experience,that forced VVS to shoot it down, with "Bin Laden type" guys at the time :eek:

That's the legacy of all those U.S. spy overflights of the Soviet Union.

BertSchlossberg
14 Jul 05,, 07:06
That's the legacy of all those U.S. spy overflights of the Soviet Union.

Dear Folks who have been following this discussion,

Yesterday, a reader of the website of the Committee for the Rescue sent in this Oct. 1, 2000 short Itogi interview with Vadim Kondrabaev, one of the Soviet civilian divers who visited KAL 007 at the bottom of the Tatqar straits within 2 weeks of the downing. We have included the interview below.
We had been familiar with it and have had it on our website. The interview detailed Kondrabaev's surprised response to the fact of no bodies ( he explains that "special services" explained to them that crabs ate them - no comment about the bones), and no suitcases and luggage. He also gives as explanation what we have maintained by other evidences-

"It is quite possible that several mini submarines with military divers went down to the Boeing even before us and collected everything, and scattered the remaining parts of the destroyed liner about or left them there where they were needed, and afterwards called us as a smoke screen. "

In additon, he describes the condition of KAL 007 on the bottom as being in timy pieces much in the way Capt. Girs, who commanded the submersible Tinro 2 and who made most of the dives - very different from the description provided by the military divers. Further substantiating an underwater explosion to simulate a plane having disintigrating upon impact.

But what I had not seen until yesterday, is that this is the first of the recent articles by the participants from the Soviet times on into Russian Federatation times confirming the mystery of the missing bodies and luggage as being truly a mystery and hardly explainable (quite a divergence from the previous Soviet postions) and confirming that the Soviet "search" was a cover-up for the fact that they knew where KAL 007 was and had already gutted it and had gotten the "black boxes". See- http://www.rescue007.org/kaminski.htm and http://www.rescue007.org/anniversary_commentary.htm


Times are achanging-perhaps!

The interview-
"Vadim Kondrabaev: "Secret of the Empty Airplane"
The tragedy in the skies over the Black Sea unwillingly reminded one of the events that occurred on 1 September 1983 in the Far East, when a Soviet Su-15 fighter shot down a KAL airlines Boeing 747 airplane, which was flying the New York - Seoul trip, that had intruded into the air space of the USSR with two air-to-air missiles. The airplane, on board which according to official data were 269 passengers and crew, fell into the Tatar straits from an altitude of 11,000 meters. The bodies of the dead, if one is to believe the official announcements of the Soviet side, never were found.

The deep sea diver Vadim Kondrabaev, who has kept quiet for 18 years, was one of the first lowered to the destroyed Boeing, which was laying at a depth of 174 meters. He arrived at a meeting with Itogi journalists with a small, black bag. There were several curiosities in it: things from the Boeing itself. The diver proudly showed us forks and spoons with the KAL symbol, golf balls and the most important relics: a large ancient Egyptian cross - a symbol of eternal life - and a small bible in English, which he found on the bottom in the pocket of a rain coat which was tangled in the airplanes wreckage.

- Did you understand what you were risking when you collected these "souvenirs" on the bottom?

- The desire to keep some kind of memory about our secret mission was stronger than fear of the KGB. We well understood that we could be brought to trial for such escapades. When the tough times began, I wanted to sell my collection in Moscow. Having gone around to opening days and markets and not finding any buyers, I decided to shrug it off. By the way, I don't regret that some kind of memory remained.

- How did you turn up at the place of the Boeing's impact?

- On the night of 10 September 1983, when my colleagues and I were working on the diving and rescue craft "Sprut" in the Barents Sea, an aircraft carrier approached us. They reported from it that myself and 16 other divers were to fly immediately to Kaspiy. However, instead of Kaspiy, we landed in Moscow at Chkalovskiy airport.
Having been refueled, our military transport airplane once again took off and assumed a heading unknown to us. We landed in Yuzho-Sakhalinsk. From there by buses to Kholmsk - to the Arktikmorneftegazrazvedka diving base. Then they literally forgot about us for several days and only at the end of September brought us to the drilling ship "Mikhail Mir*****o." There was a diving complex there, which also became our home for a whole month.

- Didn't you know what you would be doing?

- Of course not. No one had explained anything to us. Only having started training in the pressure chamber did we find out that we would be diving to the destroyed South Korean Boeing. They showed us an old, shabby pocket calendar with ((Korean)) characters, on which this very Boeing was rendered.

- Did you start the dives right away?

- At first they lowered a video camera from the Mir*****o to the bottom, and then they decided to use a diving bell. where one of the divers looked to the right, a second to the left, and a third and fourth below, directly beneath the bell. On the third day of the dives we noticed a heap of wreckage on the bottom. We were ordered to leave the bell and begin to collect all of this debris. There were especially interested in radio parts, the remains of equipment, documents, in general, everything that was there. Everything was placed into a basket, welded with metal bars and attached to the bell.

- Did you see the airplane with your own eyes?

- It is difficult to call this an airplane. The largest wreckage was the size of not more than a square meter. Despite the fact that on board, as they say, was a large number of passengers, we didn't find one body, with the exception only of one hand in a black glove that had been torn off from the arm. The only fact testifying to the fact that there was a destroyed airplane laying on the bottom was the a landing gear strut.

We found very many things - ragged clothing, cosmetics, tape players, children's toys, spoons, forks, and rescue equipment with the KAL trade mark. But were weren't able to explain some finds. For example, a completely new powder box was found in a box, but with a cracked mirror, as if someone had broken it specially in advance.

- And did you find the "black boxes"?

- Somewhere on the fifth day of the search we discovered a recording tape. We went along it and discovered that it was coming out of some kind of box. We reported to above. It really started! The order came to immediately to lift this box. Later they explained to us that we had found one of four of the recorders on board the airplane. Incidentally, somewhere in the bowels of the special services undoubtedly is the film taken by us: from the very beginning we were recording everything that was happening with a video camera, which was concealed in a homemade sealed box. However, someone squealed on us and one evening they called all the "cinematographers" into a special section on board the ship. There a serious man in civilian clothes asked everything be given up to him at once and to take no more pictures.

- Are you sure that you were working on that very Boeing?

- It hs been difficult to believe up to now for the reason that, of the people who supposedly were on board, something should have remained. We worked beneath the water almost a month for 5 hours a day and didn't find one suitcase, not even a handle from them. After all there is baggage on any air trip. We either were able to work on the remains, which already had been filtered by the special services, or, what I also do not discount, there were no passengers at all on the airplane, and they stuffed the cabin with rubbish.

- You don't rule out that special service divers were able to do thorough work on the bottom before you?

- It is quite possible that several mini submarines with military divers went down to the Boeing even before us and collected everything, and scattered the remaining parts of the destroyed liner about or left them there where they were needed, and afterwards called us as a smoke screen. Then, you know, both the Japanese and the Americans were hunting for this airplane. The latter even listened in on our conversations under water with the help of special radio buoys, which were dropped from helicopters and combat ships which were traveling back and forth not far away. Therefore, the authorities always were repeating to us not to be chattering beneath the water. It happened, we were working and here their acoustics via the radio buoy give such a squeak that the eardrums almost burst. Then the command followed to surface. While we were resting, our military forced back the American ships, and one day they resorted to cunning. They fashioned some sort of a similar "black box" and placed it at a depth of 600 meters several kilometers away from the "Mir*****o." They sent combat boats and fishing trawlers into that region for show. We hear on the radio - the Americans are screaming to the whole world that they have found the Boeing. Helicopters began to arrive on their aircraft carrier with journalists and senators, and one helicopter even crashed in the water.

- So where might the bodies of the dead passengers be anyhow?

- I've also thought about this question. You know, even if fishing trawlers were used to collect the remains from the Boeing, then after a month would be simply impossible to collect the bodies of all the dead. True, at the end of the expedition one of the military personnel on the "Mir*****o," having noted that I am very curious and want nonetheless to find the answer to the question, just where are the corpses, said: "The crabs ate them." Perhaps it was this way - even before the first dive we noticed a huge number of crabs on the bottom.

- When did your mission end?

- On 29 October. They paid us 200 - 250 rubles each for the work and asked us not to talk about it much. It has come to the point of absurdity. We fly to Moscow, and there aren't enough tickets for the trip to Murmansk. It turns out some have to fly on various trips. Here our group leader goes up to some airport head and says: "Well, the guys were working on the Korean Boeing, we should send them all home together, else they will start drinking one at a time and start jabbering away." The tickets were found immediately.

- Did they award you somehow for the work?

- In 1984 there was an order of navy commander-in-chief Admiral GOrshkov issued, in which he expressed his personal gratitude to all our team. They even entered this gratitude for me in my service record.

Stepan Krivosheev held the interview

Source: 00.10.01, Itogi "

lemontree
14 Jul 05,, 10:39
Ok so where are the passengers and crew?...

BertSchlossberg
15 Jul 05,, 09:10
Ok so where are the passengers and crew?...

Lemontree,

Here http://www.rescue007.org/faq.htm#10 is the answer to your question. These are the results of the Israeli Research Centre for Prisons, Psych-Prisons and Forced Labor Concentration Camps of the USSR. There are no" live sightings" but there are "credible reports" needing further investigation. They are "good" only until the mid 1990's - Avraham Shifrin, the Director of the Centre, died in 1998 but slightly before then, his informant ring ceased its operations in the Russian Federation. There have been a few leads subsequently but no means of verification. The following - http://www.rescue007.org/docs/LaborCamps.pdf - provides evidence for the existance of the Gulag system for foreign nationals into Russian Federation times. These were located in the general area that the Research Centre linked to some of the KAL 007 people - the Tynda area of Siberia and along the Amur river.

sparten
27 Jul 05,, 16:39
Having read your story with some interest, I would like to ask you a questions.

What could the Soviets gain by keeping survivors or bodies?

BertSchlossberg
27 Jul 05,, 19:57
Having read your story with some interest, I would like to ask you a questions.

What could the Soviets gain by keeping survivors or bodies?


This has always been a vexing question for us. We did not reason down from the whys to find the evidence but reasoned up from the evidence that was unfolding before us. Still, there is some order that is appearing. First, it is now admitted by the Russian Federation what the Soviets admitted to themselves - that they had deceived the US in reference to their knowledge of the location of KAL 007 and in reference to their having gotten the black box. What the Soviets hoped to gain by their deception, they gained- but only in part. Below is the background to the answer of your question - taken from FAQ 1 of the Commiottee fo the Rescue's website.


1. Why did the Russians initially deny that they had shot down the civilian flight, KAL 007? Why have the Russians continued to hold the passengers to this day?
The answers to these questions lie in the accepted appraisal of the Cold War situation of 1983:

President Reagan had already publicly castigated the USSR as the "Evil Empire."

On December 12, 1979, Joseph Luns, Secretary General of NATO, announced that the United States would deploy both Pershing II intermediate range ballistic missiles and ground-launched cruise missiles in Europe -- only six minutes from Moscow! -- to counter the Soviet advantage in ICBMs.

Yuri Andropov was trying to make the Soviet Union appear as a good, peace-loving nation to forestall NATO's missile deployment. If the Soviets had released the passengers right away, they would have been admitting to their culpability, which would have destroyed their "peace-loving" image. As it turned out, their efforts did not work. The US played the tape of the Su-15 pilot, Gennadie Osipovich, saying "the target is destroyed" at the United Nations. NATO then deployed the Pershing II missiles in November of 1983. They remained in Europe until Gorbachev agreed to the breakup of the Warsaw Pact. (In December 1987, Reagan and Gorbachev signed a treaty that for the first time eliminated the entire class of intermediate-range missiles).

In the failed coup against Gorbachev in August, 1991, fifteen plotters committed suicide, including General Pugo and Marshal Akhromeyev. On the other hand, plotters Marshal Varrenikov and KGB head, Vladimir Kryuchkov, were imprisoned by Gorbachev but released soon thereafter. Varrenikov was commander in chief of the army. Kryuchkov had been head of the First Chief Directorate of the KGB at the time of the shoot-down. These two represented elements within the Soviet military that were strongly xenophobic, anti-US and oriented towards nuclear confrontation. These were the same ones who lead the cover-up of KAL 007 from the start. (Varrenikov arrived on Sakhalin on September 1st to head up the first military inquest and to contain the damage. Kryuchkov was a senior officer in the KGB and personally interrogated congressman Larry McDonald at the Lubyanka prison in Moscow shortly after the plane came down.) Their release reflects their continuing strength. Kryuchkov is still active, a personal friend of Russian President Putin and on the lecture circuit(!), and Varrenikov is now chairman of the Committee for Veteran's Affairs of the Russian State Duma. To this day, they have a strong interest in maintaining the cover-up. A recent book, War Scare: Russia and America on the Nuclear Brink by Peter Vincent Pry, Praeger Publishers, 1999, shows how these elements were active during the coup attempt against Boris Yeltsin in October, 1993, and how they continue to exist. These elements are even more dangerous now as they are acutely aware of how weak Russia's conventional forces are today, which leaves them only the option of nuclear solutions.

Russia may fear that the release of the KAL 007 passengers and crew might create a negative reaction in the US and bring an end to the American aid that Russia currently receives.

Finally, IF (a big "if") the Soviets shot down KAL 007 in order to get Larry McDonald (as some believe), or if they discovered the prize they had unintentionally received was too precious to return, they could not release any of the passengers as this would force them to admit to their holding him.

Sparten, these reasons pertain particularly to KAL 007. But the Soviets would surely be influenced by their general attitude and practice towards all captured foreigners. See - http://www.rescue007.org/faq.htm#11

lemontree
30 Jul 05,, 10:15
The soviets were the ones who good the maximum flak from world opinion and this incident lead to the reduced resistance from Germans to allow the Preshing II missiles for deployment in their country.
So it would seem stupid for them to hide from the world that the passengers are alive. The Russians are anything but stupid.