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  • Kurdish independence? - discussion

    curious to hear WAB opinion on this dilemma, seen alot on kashmir but nothing on the kurds on the board. Check out below link for latest development, I dont know much about it myself so I welcome any input

    BBC News - Kurdish PKK denies Istanbul bomb, extends 'truce'

  • #2
    What do you mean by kurdish independece? Independence of the Iraqı Kurds or Independence of Kurds of Turkey? There should be many threads on the forum about PKK - Turkey conflict where you can find useful info: You may try the search option.

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    • #3
      What do you mean by kurdish independece? Independence of the Iraqı Kurds or Independence of Kurds of Turkey?
      I was referring to "Kurdistan", and its components
      You may try the search option
      cheers, I will have a look

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      • #4
        I can only give my perspective that's not coloured or particularly aware of the local politics and history, but in my view, the Kurdish people are a nation, and they've been royally screwed by history in terms of having no self-governed homeland, and being broken up into states dominated by other nations. It's up to them whether they should have an independent state, but within those perimeters if they do want it, they should have it. Parnell said 'no man has the right to fix the boundry on the march to a nation' and I think that's true in this case as well. Jews deserve a homeland, Palestinians deserve a homeland, and Kurds deserve a homeland too.
        Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
        - John Stuart Mill.

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        • #5
          Discussed heavily when I first arrived because I've an abiding interest in the issue. Do some checking in the Iraq thread. That would constitute the heart of Kurdistan, no?
          "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
          "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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          • #6
            latest news,

            pkk accepted the responsability of Istanbul bombing...
            Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by crooks View Post
              It's up to them whether they should have an independent state, but within those perimeters if they do want it, they should have it.
              It is obviously not up to them, otherwise they already would have an independent state, wouldn't they.

              Parnell said 'no man has the right to fix the boundry on the march to a nation' and I think that's true in this case as well.
              That Parnell person doesn't seem to be realist.....

              Jews deserve a homeland, Palestinians deserve a homeland, and Kurds deserve a homeland too.
              Yes, and I deserve my own planet.:whome:

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              • #8
                The Kurds have no automatic right to statehood. Arguably, they have a right to self-determination – arguably. But then again, self-determination as a concept is vague, and generally thought to apply to those living under occupation or colonisation. Kurds are not living under occupation. Kurds historically were a nomadic people. They never existed as a nation, never had their own state.

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                • #9
                  I think if they can really fight it out and get a nation then they deserve it, these stupid terrorist actions in Turkey will only get them a ass kicking.

                  Iraq, may be if they agree to submit to a Iraqi nation, they will get some degree of autonomy, otherwise in a Iraq with a strong central government (Democratic, communist, fascist, or any form really) where the rest of the factions have reached a settlement through talks or war they will still keep getting their asses kicked.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by tantalus View Post
                    curious to hear WAB opinion on this dilemma, seen alot on kashmir but nothing on the kurds on the board.
                    Theirs is a much harder problem in comparison as the land they want includes parts of Turkey, Syria, Iran & Iraq. So i think these countries would be under pressure not to give in as the first to give in sinks the others.

                    Originally posted by kuku View Post
                    Iraq, may be if they agree to submit to a Iraqi nation, they will get some degree of autonomy, otherwise in a Iraq with a strong central government (Democratic, communist, fascist, or any form really) where the rest of the factions have reached a settlement through talks or war they will still keep getting their asses kicked.
                    Has there been any movement in Iraq towards a federated strucutre or is it strong centre ?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Hitman817 View Post
                      It is obviously not up to them, otherwise they already would have an independent state, wouldn't they.
                      Yes, it obviously isn't. But right there you're essentially just saying that if they had the choice, there would be a Kurdish state, which implies you know that they'd vote for it or that it would have happened organically, and just aren't willing to recognise or let them have the vote.

                      There's something wrong with that.

                      Originally posted by Hitman817 View Post
                      That Parnell person doesn't seem to be realist.....
                      Actually he was single-malt finely distilled realist.

                      Originally posted by Hitman817 View Post
                      Yes, and I deserve my own planet.:whome:
                      Good for you! As I said in my opener, I've no history or connections to the middle east, and I may have stepped into a minefield of ethnic tension and nationalism, but just giving my opinion, and it's one that is 100% in favour of a Kurdish state. Soz.
                      Last edited by crooks; 09 Nov 10,, 12:02.
                      Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
                      - John Stuart Mill.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by crooks View Post
                        Yes, it obviously isn't. But right there you're essentially just saying that if they had the choice, there would be a Kurdish state, which implies you know that they'd vote for it or that it would have happened organically, and just aren't willing to recognise or let them have the vote.
                        I'm not sure how the Turkish Kurds would vote since many of them live and work in western Turkey and would have to go to their new state. The Iraki Kurds would vote for a state, I'm sure of that, not so sure about the Irani our Syrian Kurds, since I don't know anything about them.


                        There's something wrong with that.
                        No, there isn't. If it was that easy to have an own state, everybody would want one, even I for myself, where I didn't have to pay any taxes.


                        Actually he was single-malt finely distilled realist.
                        meaning?

                        Good for you! As I said in my opener, I've no history or connections to the middle east, and I may have stepped into a minefield of ethnic tension and nationalism, but just giving my opinion, and it's one that is 100% in favour of a Kurdish state. Soz.
                        It's good you realize your lack of knowledge, what I don't understand is that you have such a firm opinion on this issus without any basic knowledge about the region or the Kurds. For exampal, I'm sure there would be at least two if not three Kurdish States, if they had the choice, so which of them would you be 100% in favour of?

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                        • #13
                          Kurdistan

                          There'll be no "greater Kurdistan". What Kurdistan that may exist will either be in its current autonomous-linked configuration to Iraq or, should Iraq dissemble in the post-American wake, a separate nation largely defined by Kurdistan's current borders with Syria, Turkey, and Iran.

                          The only area of contention will be within Iraq where Kurdish peshmerga would battle with pro-shia/sunni forces to define Kurdistan's southern periphery. I've long sensed that, should Iraq fracture into civil war, the American government has a plan to preserve Kurdistan. I've no basis for such as I'm not privy to our internal geo-political discussions but it's long been known that the KRG would favor the stationing of U.S. troops in Kurdistan.

                          There are compelling reasons to consider such. There are compelling reasons to stay far, far away from such.

                          Until the Kurdish government embraces the Kurdistan which I've largely defined and rejects any notion of a "greater Kurdistan" anywhere in its lexicon, such a scenario should be utterly avoided by the U.S. government. The scheme would be thoroughly unworkable without the cooperation of Turkey. Syria and Iran? They don't matter. America could guarantee Kurdish survival against either but for Kurdistan to survive in any form will require Turkish consent and cooperation. That means a complete rejection of pan-kurdish sentiment beyond the present KRG borders and the elimination of the PKK.

                          Kurds globally, but specifically within the region, can view Kurdistan in its present form akin to Israel-a final redoubt. Should Syrian, Iranian, or Turkish Kurds find their nat'l governments unbearable, they've the option of migrating to Kurdistan. They shouldn't have the option of expanding Kurdistan's present borders.
                          "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                          "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by S-2 View Post
                            for Kurdistan to survive in any form will require Turkish consent and cooperation. That means a complete rejection of pan-kurdish sentiment beyond the present KRG borders and the elimination of the PKK.
                            Will Turkey agree to this ? Doubtful.

                            Originally posted by S-2 View Post
                            They shouldn't have the option of expanding Kurdistan's present borders.
                            Best way of ensuring that does not happen is if the one in Iraq does not come into being in the first place otherwise all bets are off.

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                            • #15
                              Double Edge Reply

                              "Will Turkey agree to this ? Doubtful."

                              Kurdistan doesn't have a chance of surviving on its own without meaningful American guarantees. The MOST meaningful would be the presence of U.S. troops on Kurdish soil. For that to happen, Kurdish peshmerga forces would have to take on the PKK in determined fashion. Were that to happen it is DECIDEDLY in Turkish interest.

                              All is contingent upon Iraq dissolving in a three-way civil war with Shiastan and Sunnistan the other competing factions. Under those circumstances Kirkuk and Mosul-based oil could only go through Turkey. This would be attractive to Turkey...for a price.

                              There are multiple points of conversion-and leverage. There have already been meetings involving Turkish and Kurdish officials.

                              "Best way of ensuring that does not happen is if the one in Iraq does not come into being in the first place otherwise all bets are off."

                              The Kurds already have a very functioning, thriving government-

                              Kurdish Regional Government Official Site

                              Select english or kurdi.

                              The framework is already very much there in Irbil.
                              "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                              "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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