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  • New Carriers for RN - Training

    I know this may sound strange . . . But please bear with me!

    OK. RN gets two new carriers. Carriers expected to get 'Cats and Traps'. Due to around 35+ year gap since last true 'flat top', HMS Ark Royal' how will the RN train up new jobs i.e. Catapult Operators/Maintainers, Arresting Gear Operators/Maintainers etc. Also I assume all pilots would need to qualify and gain experience on Arrested Landings and Catapult Take Offs prior to the carriers becoming operational (with or without aircraft). It would seem a major issue learning not only a new aircraft (F-35C) but also new ways to land and take off at the same time!
    Would the RN get US training! Or would they insist on going there own way! I assume that by now the UK does not have any 'carrier capable' aircraft in service, the last being Phantoms and Buccaneers, to train with when the first carrier arrives even if F-35Cs are further off.

    Please excuse my ignorance if gaping errors.

  • #2
    Sounds like a valid question to me. Perhaps a squadron of training F18's would be a fix? Even F4's might be useful for basic take off and landing qualification. IMO The training aircraft would not need to be front line air superiority fighters, and they probably could get by with a dozen or so,
    sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
    If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

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    • #3
      For starters, before the RN may start their own program, they would most likely train with the French or the USN at Pensacola.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by surfgun View Post
        For starters, before the RN may start their own program, they would most likely train with the French or the USN at Pensacola.
        Would they use their new carriers or the USN or French carriers?
        sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
        If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

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        • #5
          Well the French cross train with USN so I would say both (American & French with the respective countries training aircraft, as the British have no carrier capable trainer aircraft at this time). If the RN is forced to sell one of their new carriers (due to budget issues), the chances are that the French would love to snatch it up (to have a reliable carrier). This may be one one of the reasons that the new British carriers are going with catapults and arresting gear (to make it more appealing to the French).
          Last edited by surfgun; 22 Oct 10,, 01:17.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by surfgun View Post
            Well the French cross train with USN so I would say both (American & French with the respective countries training aircraft, as the British have no carrier capable trainer aircraft at this time). If the RN is forced to sell one of their new carriers (due to budget issues), the chances are that the French would love to snatch it up (to have a reliable carrier). This may be one one of the reasons that the new British carriers are going with catapults and arresting gear (to make it more appealing to the French).
            That makes sense, thank you
            sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
            If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

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            • #7
              Originally posted by USSWisconsin View Post
              That makes sense, thank you
              There are exchange programs going on. I know at one time the Canadians had a pilot who was carrier qualified and served on a carrier. In exchange, there was a USN 2IC of one of the Wings who was also acting CO when the real CO went on vacation (the vacation was planned so that the USN guy did have a chance to become Wing CO).

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                There are exchange programs going on. I know at one time the Canadians had a pilot who was carrier qualified and served on a carrier. In exchange, there was a USN 2IC of one of the Wings who was also acting CO when the real CO went on vacation (the vacation was planned so that the USN guy did have a chance to become Wing CO).
                Thank You, I am getting the impression that the New RN Carrier pilot training isn't going to be too much of a problem
                sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
                If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

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                • #9
                  Pilot training will not be much of a problem. Exchange pilots form the core of the RN transition squadron.

                  What will be a problem will be the deck ops. There are no enlisted exchange programs. And flight decks are the most dangerous place on earth.

                  It will take years (a decade) before the Brits learn how to run their flight decks to their potential.

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                  • #10
                    IMO, No doubt the RN already have men in training and already reviewing the cats and traps with their manufacturer. The Brits have had this training already and probably have a very good source of knowledge on the concepts and weakpoints.

                    I also agree in what Grape says very much. Very dangerous and timely when you think its been a long time. Especially for a flight deck that large. Three times larger then then the Invincible class of carriers.

                    Some interesting details about the QE.....

                    The deck will support simultaneous launch and recovery operations. The deck is fitted with a 13° bow deck ski jump.

                    No catapult or arresters will be fitted in the initial build but the carrier will be built to accommodate a future back-fit. The carrier will be fitted with a steam catapult or electromagnetic launch system and arrester gear, if the option to convert the carrier to the conventional take-off and landing (CTOL) variant proceeds.

                    The deck has three runways: two shorter runways of approximately 160m for the STOVL joint strike fighter and a long runway, approximately 260m over the full length of the carrier, for launching heavily loaded aircraft – an area of nearly 13,000mē. The deck will have one or two vertical landing pads for the F-35 aircraft towards the stern of the ship.

                    Jet blast deflectors will be fitted on each runway 160m back from the bow ski jump and probably in line with the rear wall of the first island. The deflectors protect the deck from the blast of the F-35 joint strike fighter aircraft engines operating at maximum thrust for take-off.

                    There will be two large 70t-load deck-edge aircraft lifts, to be built by McTaggart Scott of Loanhead, Scotland, to transfer aircraft between the hangar and flight decks, one between the islands and one to the aft of the FLYCO island.

                    Navy Technology.com
                    Last edited by Dreadnought; 22 Oct 10,, 05:18.
                    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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                    • #11
                      Thanks

                      Thanks for your discussions to this point. It does seem that the RN has un upward struggle and I did feel that it would be a number of years before the carriers would be operating at a 'cutting edge' like other nations that have not had a break in coventional carrier operations. As ever I hope the RN are not forced to leave training to the last minute and use the almost ten years till we have F-35Cs operational well.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Dreadnought View Post
                        IMO, No doubt the RN already have men in training and already reviewing the cats and traps with their manufacturer. The Brits have had this training already and probably have a very good source of knowledge on the concepts and weakpoints.

                        I also agree in what Grape says very much. Very dangerous and timely when you think its been a long time. Especially for a flight deck that large. Three times larger then then the Invincible class of carriers.

                        Some interesting details about the QE.....

                        The deck will support simultaneous launch and recovery operations. The deck is fitted with a 13° bow deck ski jump.

                        No catapult or arresters will be fitted in the initial build but the carrier will be built to accommodate a future back-fit. The carrier will be fitted with a steam catapult or electromagnetic launch system and arrester gear, if the option to convert the carrier to the conventional take-off and landing (CTOL) variant proceeds.

                        The deck has three runways: two shorter runways of approximately 160m for the STOVL joint strike fighter and a long runway, approximately 260m over the full length of the carrier, for launching heavily loaded aircraft – an area of nearly 13,000mē. The deck will have one or two vertical landing pads for the F-35 aircraft towards the stern of the ship.

                        Jet blast deflectors will be fitted on each runway 160m back from the bow ski jump and probably in line with the rear wall of the first island. The deflectors protect the deck from the blast of the F-35 joint strike fighter aircraft engines operating at maximum thrust for take-off.

                        There will be two large 70t-load deck-edge aircraft lifts, to be built by McTaggart Scott of Loanhead, Scotland, to transfer aircraft between the hangar and flight decks, one between the islands and one to the aft of the FLYCO island.

                        Navy Technology.com
                        Dread, I believe your working off of dated information. This week's MOD review indicated that the RN is going with the F-35C, so no more ski ramps for the RN. Cats and wires all the way.http://www.janes.com/news/defence/jd...1021_1_n.shtml
                        Last edited by surfgun; 23 Oct 10,, 02:13.

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                        • #13
                          Thanks, I began to wonder after they had mentioned two islands. I'm pretty sure they settled on one island structure. Thanks for catching that.
                          Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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                          • #14
                            I believe BAE also make the T-45. The T-45 being the primary US trainer for carrier operations. Makes sense that British would use them as their training aircraft as well.

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                            • #15
                              Here's a link, it apears it may be dated, but interesting none the less.
                              Queen Elizabeth Class : Future Ships : Surface Fleet : Operations and Support : Royal Navy
                              sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
                              If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

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