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wipeout
01 May 05,, 15:24
I didnt know this happened in the Kargil War of 1999 India-Pakistan. Imagine telling your people everything is under control and the next minute hearing sonic booms.

Ok the Questions (lots of them)

How deep did the pilot go. Did he fly over lahore or some big city. Did the pilot fly straight over pakistan and take a U-turn or slow down from Mach-2 take a high-G turn (risk being hit by missiles and facing an already alerted, heavily-radared Indian border) or fly all across Pakistan enter Afghanistan, slow down, and cooly return from the Arabian sea. Also how much time would it take at mach 2.5 to cross the entire stretch of Pakistan, :tongue: which I assume is 1500 kms or less than 1000 miles.

How long can it fly at 2.5 with A/B's and the range? Can it be challenged by a F-16 with a very good A2A missile with 10,000 feet seperating them?
Ok these are hypothetical questions but would like to know what you guys think.

Also what are the relative costs per piece of the SR-71 and the MiG-25 Foxbats? Biggest question of all. Why couldnt a Mig 25 at 2.5 mach sustained catch an SR-71. Does the Foxbat have good A2A missiles?

I wish the Defence minister, George "Dufus, I like trains" Fernandes would have sent 2 MiG-25's across Pakistan :eek: into Kandahar after the hijacked plane, IC 814 (India would-be Entebbe) would have safely landed, and create some booms at the airbase while dropping A/G bombs to make a statement :mad:

One last question, is the Stinger missile a threat to a MiG-25 at 30,000 feet at Mach 1.5 ready to go to Mach 2 at a moment's notice.

Here's the link, (The site is pro-indian)

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/other-1997mig25-1.html

>>>>>>>>>>Air Power International

By Peter Steinemann

Last May (1997), an Indian Force (IAF) Mikoyan MiG-25RB Foxbat-B reconnaissance aircraft created a furore when the pilot flew faster than Mach 2 over Pakistani territory following a reconnaissance mission into Pakistan airspace. :eek: The Foxbat broke the sound barrier while flying at an altitude of around 65,000 feet, otherwise the mission would have remained covert, at least to the general public. The Pakistan Government considered the breaking of the sound barrier as deliberate: to make the point that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has no aircraft in its inventory which can come close to the cruising height of the MiG-25 (up to 74,000 feet). :biggrin:

However, from one of PAF's Forward Operating Bases, radar traced the intruder and the F-16As scrambled. Sources in the PAF said that there was no need to intercept a plane flying at the altitude of 65,000 feet as the F-16 can reach an operating ceiling of 55,000 feet.

India denied the incident but Pakistan's Foreign Minister, Gohar Ayub Khan, believed that the Foxbat photographed strategic installations near the Capital, Islamabad. Interestingly, the two countries signed a 'Prevention of Air Space Violations' agreement in April 1991, which recognized that PAF and IAF aircraft operate near each other's airspace. The agreement permitted overflights and landings by military aircraft, but certainly not airborne reconnaissance. <<<<<<<<<<<<<

Bill
01 May 05,, 20:29
"One last question, is the Stinger missile a threat to a MiG-25 at 30,000 feet at Mach 1.5 ready to go to Mach 2 at a moment's notice."

A stinger missile isn't a threat to anything at 30,000 feet.

Dima
02 May 05,, 03:59
I didnt know this happened in the Kargil War of 1999 India-Pakistan. Imagine telling your people everything is under control and the next minute hearing sonic booms.

Ok the Questions (lots of them)

How deep did the pilot go. Did he fly over lahore or some big city. Did the pilot fly straight over pakistan and take a U-turn or slow down from Mach-2 take a high-G turn (risk being hit by missiles and facing an already alerted, heavily-radared Indian border) or fly all across Pakistan enter Afghanistan, slow down, and cooly return from the Arabian sea. Also how much time would it take at mach 2.5 to cross the entire stretch of Pakistan, :tongue: which I assume is 1500 kms or less than 1000 miles.

How long can it fly at 2.5 with A/B's and the range? Can it be challenged by a F-16 with a very good A2A missile with 10,000 feet seperating them?
Ok these are hypothetical questions but would like to know what you guys think.

Also what are the relative costs per piece of the SR-71 and the MiG-25 Foxbats? Biggest question of all. Why couldnt a Mig 25 at 2.5 mach sustained catch an SR-71. Does the Foxbat have good A2A missiles?

I wish the Defence minister, George "Dufus" Fernandes would have sent 2 MiG-25's across Pakistan :eek: into Kandahar and create some booms at the airbase while dropping A/G bombs to make a statement :mad:

One last question, is the Stinger missile a threat to a MiG-25 at 30,000 feet at Mach 1.5 ready to go to Mach 2 at a moment's notice.

Here's the link, (The site is pro-indian)

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/other-1997mig25-1.html

>>>>>>>>>>Air Power International

By Peter Steinemann

Last May (1997), an Indian Force (IAF) Mikoyan MiG-25RB Foxbat-B reconnaissance aircraft created a furore when the pilot flew faster than Mach 2 over Pakistani territory following a reconnaissance mission into Pakistan airspace. :eek: The Foxbat broke the sound barrier while flying at an altitude of around 65,000 feet, otherwise the mission would have remained covert, at least to the general public. The Pakistan Government considered the breaking of the sound barrier as deliberate: to make the point that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has no aircraft in its inventory which can come close to the cruising height of the MiG-25 (up to 74,000 feet). :biggrin:

However, from one of PAF's Forward Operating Bases, radar traced the intruder and the F-16As scrambled. Sources in the PAF said that there was no need to intercept a plane flying at the altitude of 65,000 feet as the F-16 can reach an operating ceiling of 55,000 feet.

India denied the incident but Pakistan's Foreign Minister, Gohar Ayub Khan, believed that the Foxbat photographed strategic installations near the Capital, Islamabad. Interestingly, the two countries signed a 'Prevention of Air Space Violations' agreement in April 1991, which recognized that PAF and IAF aircraft operate near each other's airspace. The agreement permitted overflights and landings by military aircraft, but certainly not airborne reconnaissance. <<<<<<<<<<<<<


i really don't understand why they aren't making many aircraft that havea ceiling of 22,000 metres or more, i mean, the engagement ceiling of the AIM-120 is 20,000 metres which makes the MiG-25, which has a ceiling of almost 25,000 metres impervious to America's most advanced BVR missile

i believe that the Foxbat is significantly less expensive than an SR-71

i also heard that the Foxbat onec reached 110,000 feet high, incredible, they should make more heavy platforms such as these, Russia believes that the 6th generation of aircraft will be space planes cool, most likely unmanned

Bill
02 May 05,, 08:36
"i really don't understand why they aren't making many aircraft that havea ceiling of 22,000 metres or more"

It's an environmental control issue. Making aircraft that operate over 60,000 feet requires a much more expensive life support system.

"i mean, the engagement ceiling of the AIM-120 is 20,000 metres"

Don't believe everything you read.

"which makes the MiG-25, which has a ceiling of almost 25,000 metres impervious to America's most advanced BVR missile"

What it's 'impervious' too is most US interceptors, not the missiles themselves. It's a kinematics issue. When you have to shoot up at a target much of the missiles energy is wasted on the climb to altitude. And the Mig-25/31 are both well within the engagement parameters of the recently retired USN AIM-54C Phoenix(100,000 foot cieling, Mach 5+ 100nm+ performance), the US Army Patriot PAC II SAM, and the USN SM-2MRIIIB SAM. The F-22 can operate well 'in excess' of 60,000 feet, so it should be quite capable of an AMRAAM Mig-25 intercept.

"i believe that the Foxbat is significantly less expensive than an SR-71"

It's also significantly slower, significantly shorter ranged, with a significantly greater RCS, all despite being significantly newer of an aircraft.

The SR-71 and the B-70 Valkyrie are in a class all to themselves when it comes to ultra-high performance high altitude penetrating aircraft.

"i also heard that the Foxbat onec reached 110,000 feet high,"

Only with a full pressure suit for the pilot, in an unarmed and stripped down aircraft...even then that claim is a bit hard to believe.

avon1944
08 May 05,, 06:41
> wipeout
> MiG-25's as a morale breaker in times of war?
> Can it be challenged by a F-16 with a very good A2A missile with 10,000
> feet seperating them?
There is no "window" for the F-16/Slammer combination to intercept a MiG.-25 on a high altitude reconn mission profile.
The F-14A/Phoenix and F-15A/Sparrow combinations are capable of killing a MiG.-25 at altitude.


> M21Sniper
> "i really don't understand why they aren't making many aircraft that havea
> ceiling of 22,000 metres or more"
The thin air makes conventional controls in-effective at those altitudes. As the USAF found out at those speeds and altitudes, all it takes to foil an intercept is a 100mph increase in speed or a 5º change in course.
In the Aviation Week Video "SR-71," on one mission over Libya the air defense fired a SAM-5 at it. Listening at the pilot navigator talking after they detect that a missile has been launched at them and for about twenty seconds they discussed whether they should make a change in course or, increase their speed. They settled on increasing their speed by a little over 100mph and the SR-71 got to the intercept point before the missile and proceeded on its mission.

> The F-22 can operate well 'in excess' of 60,000 feet, so it should be quite
> capable of an AMRAAM Mig-25 intercept.
Yes but the intercept parameters are relatively small for a target at those high altitudes or speeds.
Whereas the F-22's is designed to operate as an "offensive counter air" fighter. That translates into the F-22 is designed to cruise over bad guy land and if possible kill the MiG.-25 long before it gets to high altitudes. (Somewhat like the way the P-51 got most of their kills against the Me-262)

Adrian

Enzo Ferrari
09 May 05,, 11:17
"i believe that the Foxbat is significantly less expensive than an SR-71"

Also SR-71 never being shot down in her own career unlike the Migs.

Jay
09 May 05,, 12:19
"i believe that the Foxbat is significantly less expensive than an SR-71"

Also SR-71 never being shot down in her own career unlike the Migs.
I never heard of a Foxbat being shot down...but may be I'm wrong.

My bad...

Iraq is believed to have obtained about 20 MiG-25PDs and eight MiG-25RBs in the 1980s. The MiG-25RBs were apparently used in a considerable number of air strikes on Iranian targets during the Iran-Iraq War during the 1980s.

Many Iraqi Foxbats were destroyed on the ground during the Gulf War in 1991, and two were shot down in air combat by F-15s. One MiG-25PD shot down a US Navy F/A-18 Hornet on 20 January 1991, the only air-to-air kill scored by the Iraqis during the entire conflict. Another MiG-25 was shot down by F-16s on 25 December 1992 as a Christmas present to Saddam Hussein. A few MiG-25s were found after the US invasion of Iraq in the spring of 2003, with some included in a batch of aircraft that had been buried under the sand to conceal it.


*Edited

Enzo Ferrari
09 May 05,, 12:31
I never heard of a Foxbat being shot down...but may be I'm wrong.

My bad...

Iraq is believed to have obtained about 20 MiG-25PDs and eight MiG-25RBs in the 1980s. The MiG-25RBs were apparently used in a considerable number of air strikes on Iranian targets during the Iran-Iraq War during the 1980s.

Many Iraqi Foxbats were destroyed on the ground during the Gulf War in 1991, and two were shot down in air combat by F-15s. One MiG-25PD shot down a US Navy F/A-18 Hornet on 20 January 1991, the only air-to-air kill scored by the Iraqis during the entire conflict. Another MiG-25 was shot down by F-16s on 25 December 1992 as a Christmas present to Saddam Hussein. A few MiG-25s were found after the US invasion of Iraq in the spring of 2003, with some included in a batch of aircraft that had been buried under the sand to conceal it.


*Edited

Israel AF shoot down Mig-25 in 1982 air war... more information to be supplied by experts here...

wipeout
10 May 05,, 12:59
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/f15.html

This shows the entire history of the Syria-Israeli conflicts in the air, but this is a Jewish site so could be biased.

wipeout
10 May 05,, 13:27
http://www.indiadefence.com/IAF-Isr%20AirEx.htm

It was no surprise that in 2000 when United States Marine Corps (USMC) F/A-18 Hornets from Balkans theatre armed with standard models of AIM-9 Sidewinder engaged in mock air combats with Israeli AF fighters armed with Python 3 and Python 4 missiles in conjunction with DASH helmet mounted sight, they were “handled roughly” by the Israeli fighters. The Israelis prevailed in 220 out of 240 engagements. :tongue: Interestingly, Python 4 is rumoured to be in service with the Indian Air Force but never officially confirmed. :eek: Under development is the "fifth-generation" Python 5 with Mach 4 speed and 20-km range, “360 degrees capability” facilitated by Lock-On After Launch capability, to deal with rear hemisphere threats.

Pythons on Migs of Sukhois and U have deadly Within Visual Range (WVR) capability. Best of both worlds :biggrin:

Franco Lolan
10 May 05,, 22:50
The Israelis sold the Pythons to PRC, right? I think I remember a pair of them on the wings of aircraft during the 2001 EP-3 confrontation.

troung
10 May 05,, 23:55
The Israelis sold the Pythons to PRC, right? I think I remember a pair of them on the wings of aircraft during the 2001 EP-3 confrontation.

Python 3s which are called the PL-8.


It was no surprise that in 2000 when United States Marine Corps (USMC) F/A-18 Hornets from Balkans theatre armed with standard models of AIM-9 Sidewinder engaged in mock air combats with Israeli AF fighters armed with Python 3 and Python 4 missiles in conjunction with DASH helmet mounted sight, they were “handled roughly” by the Israeli fighters. The Israelis prevailed in 220 out of 240 engagements.

Hmmm USMC F/A-18Ds with center line fuel tanks fighting F-16Cs clean and with one side reporting on the outcome... are we ready for some BS...


I never heard of a Foxbat being shot down...but may be I'm wrong.

Iran bagged some as well as Israel and the USA.

SovietHonor
11 May 05,, 01:24
hmm, the Foxbat, it is a old plane. The Americans know everything about it since that traitor Belenko.

good to see it still in service.

Bluesman
17 May 05,, 21:30
hmm, the Foxbat, it is a old plane. The Americans know everything about it since that traitor Belenko.

good to see it still in service.

As a member of an Air Force likely to be an adversary to anybody operating the Foxbat, I agree - good to see it still in service. :biggrin:

Silent Hunter
12 Jan 08,, 19:11
I've just gained an appreciation of the size of the thing. Is it the biggest interceptor in the world?

TopHatter
12 Jan 08,, 19:24
I've just gained an appreciation of the size of the thing. Is it the biggest interceptor in the world?

That title still belongs to the Tupolev Tu-28 "Fiddler"

Where did you see a Foxbat? :)

omon
12 Jan 08,, 20:01
sr 71 can sustain m3.2 mig can only fly that fast for very short time, before engines die.
it has huge engines, guzzles gas as there is no tomorow, and has poor manuverabuility, kinda reminds me of musle cars,

Silent Hunter
12 Jan 08,, 20:49
That title still belongs to the Tupolev Tu-28 "Fiddler"

Where did you see a Foxbat? :)

Not up close. Just noticed the size of the thing relative to its cockpit in a couple of pictures.

zraver
12 Jan 08,, 22:11
No, although it may be now, the Tu-24 Fiddler is the biggest 88,200lb vs the 81,000 of the Foxbat

BudW
13 Jan 08,, 00:30
sr 71 can sustain m3.2 mig can only fly that fast for very short time, before engines die.
it has huge engines, guzzles gas as there is no tomorow, and has poor manuverabuility, kinda reminds me of musle cars,
You mean like my 70 ss Chevelle with 502 ci BB?

outofshdw
13 Jan 08,, 16:09
WHAT (http://www.indiadefence.com/IAF-Isr%20AirEx.htm)

It was no surprise that in 2000 when United States Marine Corps (USMC) F/A-18 Hornets from Balkans theatre armed with standard models of AIM-9 Sidewinder engaged in mock air combats with Israeli AF fighters armed with Python 3 and Python 4 missiles in conjunction with DASH helmet mounted sight, they were “handled roughly” by the Israeli fighters. The Israelis prevailed in 220 out of 240 engagements. :tongue: Interestingly, Python 4 is rumoured to be in service with the Indian Air Force but never officially confirmed. :eek: Under development is the "fifth-generation" Python 5 with Mach 4 speed and 20-km range, “360 degrees capability” facilitated by Lock-On After Launch capability, to deal with rear hemisphere threats.


The USAF had a similar experience during the early 1990s, in simulated engagements between USAF F-16s and former East German MiG-29s armed with helmet-mounted sights and R-73 high off-boresight dogfight missiles. No one should be surprised. Against an opponent with helmet sights and HOBS capability, it won't matter if they are flying F-16s, F-18s or Typhoons - the outcome will be the same.

I understand that the RAF has also had this same experience with their currently fielded Typhoon fighters, in training engagements with the latest US Navy F/A-18Es (which have a HOBS capability). The Typhoon won't have a similar capability until Tranche 2 enters production later this year.

Also, I should point out that the Python 5 is already in production - not development. It was credited with shooting down a Hezbollah drone during the Lebanon confrontation in 2006.

foxhound_nn
15 Jan 08,, 19:04
"One last question, is the Stinger missile a threat to a MiG-25 at 30,000 feet at Mach 1.5 ready to go to Mach 2 at a moment's notice."

A stinger missile isn't a threat to anything at 30,000 feet.

The mig25's altitude record is 37630 metres, it's about 123,458f (but of course with zero speed). it's a maneuver to avoid almost all A2A and surface-to-air missilses.



Also SR-71 never being shot down in her own career unlike the Migs.

Just because SR-71's career is MUCH more modest [unassuming, скромный].
I hadn't heard of case of using SR-71 in serious military conflicts. Where was it under serious threat to be hit? nowhere. Also when such a threat arose at soviet border it just stopped to flight here.

And by the way, I hadn't heard of serious (not just as an experiment) using SR-71 as interseptor, so it shouldn't be even compared with mig25.


As a member of an Air Force likely to be an adversary to anybody operating the Foxbat, I agree - good to see it still in service. :biggrin:

Mig25 is an interseptor, so it is intended for interception of already observed (by ground-based radars) planes. From this point of view even small RCS wouldn't save you. If you met mig25 (as interseptor) you have a little chances to stay alive.


I've just gained an appreciation of the size of the thing. Is it the biggest interceptor in the world?

At least Mig31 is bigger

foxhound_nn
15 Jan 08,, 19:18
By the way, i'm just interested, don't you know why all russian fighters have american names begining with F? Fulcrum, Foxbat, and so on. Because they are Fighters or it's just coincidence?

omon
15 Jan 08,, 19:20
By the way, i'm just interested, don't you know why all russian fighters have american names begining with F? Fulcrum, Foxbat, and so on. Because they are Fighters or it's just coincidence?

not a coinsedense, russian bombers nato names start with b, like bear, bizon, blackjack.

foxhound_nn
15 Jan 08,, 19:32
not a coinsedense, russian bombers nato names start with b, like bear, bizon, blackjack.

wow, it's probably hard to give appropriate name begining with some letter.:rolleyes:

oh, Omon, I wanted to ask you for a long time, 'omon' is a very specific russian word, are you russian or it's a coincidence?:rolleyes:

omon
15 Jan 08,, 19:35
wow, it's probably hard to give appropriate name begining with some letter.:rolleyes:

oh, Omon, I wanted to ask you for a long time, 'omon' is a very specific russian word, are you russian or it's a coincidence?:rolleyes:

i am
eto ne sovpadenie.

avon1944
23 Feb 08,, 14:17
"One last question, is the Stinger missile a threat to a MiG-25 at 30,000 feet at Mach 1.5 ready to go to Mach 2 at a moment's notice."

A stinger missile isn't a threat to anything at 30,000 feet.


The mig25's altitude record is 37630 metres, it's about 123,458f (but of course with zero speed). it's a maneuver to avoid almost all A2A and surface-to-air missilses.
Th Stinger Missile has a slant range of 4.8km (3.0mi)! Under those circumstances most aircraft over five thousand feet more than (approx.) 2.8 miles (horizontally) are beyond the maximum range of the missile. MANPADs are designed to shoot down attack helicopters and ground attack aircraft like the Su-25 or A-10.



It was no surprise that in 2000 when United States Marine Corps (USMC) F/A-18 Hornets from Balkans theatre armed with standard models of AIM-9 Sidewinder engaged in mock air combats with Israeli AF fighters armed with Python 3 and Python 4 missiles in conjunction with DASH helmet mounted sight, they were “handled roughly” by the Israeli fighters. The Israelis prevailed in 220 out of 240 engagements.
One thing that was not mentioned until much later was in the ROE's, the Israeli Air Force (IsAF) did not count any of the US Navy's BVR shots!
This and other such aerial exercises that made headline news and, always hit the news papers less than a week before the Congress voted on funds for the F-22!

My 'late' friend Art Doty a former F-14A (in one of the first classes of F-14 pilots who did not transition from the F-4 Phantom) once told me of how the US Military is sometimes required to do things that serve other purposes other than training in aerial combat. That in one exercise he was in, the carrier's F-14's in the "eastern Med" had to fly into Egyptian airspace and duel with Egyptian MiG-21's. The pilots were told they were not to pull more than "5G's" and that there would be NO tanker support. Translation -don't use your afterburner!! So, the Egyptian MiG's got a lot of good gun camera footage. This sort of brown nosing should be done by the US State Department, not the Navy.... IMHO.



No, although it may be now, the Tu-24 Fiddler is the biggest 88,200lb vs the 81,000 of the Foxbat
According to Wikipedia, the MiG-31 has a MTOW of 101,900 lb



The USAF had a similar experience during the early 1990s, in simulated engagements between USAF F-16s and former East German MiG-29s armed with helmet-mounted sights and R-73 high off-boresight dogfight missiles.
That was a rude awakening for the USAF for they did not give the HOB missile / HMDS the credit they should have. It would have come as a bad surprise in a WP/NATO conflict in the late 1980's.


I understand that the RAF has also had this same experience with their currently fielded Typhoon fighters, in training engagements with the latest US Navy F/A-18Es (which have a HOBS capability).
I had not heard of this exchange, do you have any more information on the Typhoon exercising in the USA? I know the RAF keeps at least two in this country for testing purposes.


The Typhoon won't have a similar capability until Tranche 2 enters production later this year.
The HMDS is further down the list of upgrades for the F-22A. Hopefully, they will receive it by 2011's upgrades.
In another exercise three F-16C's with HOB missiles (Archer Class) plus HMDS went against one F-22 in WVR. The F-22 shot down all three of the F-16C's although the third F-16C fired simultaneously as the F-22, so it was judged a mutual kill. The F-22 would have survived if it had a HMDS.

To my knowledge, the Iranian F-14A's have claimed third-teen MiG-25's killed (the Iraqi AF does not dispute this). The Israeli Air Force has shot down five MiG-25PD's and RB's of the Syrian Air Force. The USAF F-15C's shot down two MiG-25's in PGW#1. The first kill using an AMRAAM (Slammer) Missile was by a USAF F-16C against an Iraqi MiG-25!

Now, why would a MiG-25 pilot try to engage an F-16C head-on at 29,000 feet and at fifth-teen miles the MiG-25 still had not fired a missile at the F-16C? The F-16C fired a Slammer at twelve miles and killed the MiG-25.

Adrian

Jimmy
24 Feb 08,, 16:23
Because the AA-6 is a piece of crap.