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uss
28 Apr 05,, 08:57
Hello All,

Political considerations apart, which fighter should the InAF choose? After some thought, I came to the conclusion that the MiGs would have a better chance at A2A (better radar range and longer range AAMs, TVC, HMS), while the Mirages have a better chance at A2G (Scalp E + 9 hardpoints).

Then again, I seem to remember reading that the Mirages also have a new HMS and the MiG29Ks have a much improved A2G ability - (carries the Switchblade a2g/anti ship missile - 130km range among a variety of other a2g weapons including the possibility of western weapons!).

One distinct advantage for the MiG : cheaper.

All educated opinions are welcome.

Regards,
USS.

ajaybhutani
28 Apr 05,, 15:41
actually the advantage with the russian missiles radars israeli ECMs can be considered as gone from the Mig29 as indians would make the either purchase into a MKIzed version.
The advantage with the Mig29 is of course the initial cost of the machines brought straight away ( a 20-30 odd ones) . for the ones produced in india it might well be in favour of either. The M2Ks can be started faster will invovle lesser investment for maintenance infra and also are much cheaper to maintain and fly. Further adding the fact that M2K -5 is flying around in differen AFs. while Mig29M2 isnt more of a paper design.

The Mig29 might just not be cheaper for us. for its a devil to maintain. (Rd33K 's performance is still unknown. ).
Though even the F16 has become a strong contender with the developments in the last one month. The IAF is looking at the Plane now. The Americans can offer better prices and better concessions( but of course only i they want to which is still doubtful. ). The AI deail with Boeing for 6 B$ is a sign that we might just buy american this time. Though whats unclear is incentives are the americans offering.

uss
28 Apr 05,, 18:32
actually the advantage with the russian missiles radars israeli ECMs can be considered as gone from the Mig29 as indians would make the either purchase into a MKIzed version.


Man, that should reduce the price of the M2K as well (don't use thier radar, ecm etc)


The advantage with the Mig29 is of course the initial cost of the machines brought straight away ( a 20-30 odd ones) . for the ones produced in india it might well be in favour of either.

Perhaps, the french are known for being v. pricey. Scorpene is a good example. Heck the Mirage is probably amongst the most expensive planes in the IAF inventory. The new MiG 29K due to arrive in 2007 is estimtd at $ 32 m a piece. If we mass produce something like this, the cost would probably come down to $25m per plane. On the other hand the souped up M2K-5/mk2 is estimated at $ 40-45m per plane. Even with TOT and indegineous production, how much lower will it come to? Here is a site Figther prices - http://www.aeronautics.ru/img/img007/fighter_prices.gif. Heck from some estimates, it cost Qatar $1.2bn for it's complete 12 Mirage 2000-5 deal with france (including weapons i believe)! Now that would be expensive.


The M2Ks can be started faster will invovle lesser investment for maintenance infra and also are much cheaper to maintain and fly. .

Agreed, this is probably one of the biggest advantages of the Mirage. But then, it would help in a big way to have a prodctn facility for MiG29s when we have so many of them and the navy ordering even more. Also, this should make maintenance a little easier since we are mass producing them. Tech support was a pain with the Russians earlier, but now we produce it with TOT in India, where is the question of tech support etc.


Further adding the fact that M2K -5 is flying around in differen AFswhile Mig29M2 isnt more of a paper design.

Don't let them fool you, the M2 is a lot more than the SU 30 was (when offered to India) and look at the MKI now. Also please check this article out by Janes' George Mader (he compares the new MiGs v.favorably with blk 40 f16Ds) http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_293.shtml. An Austrian General even conceded this in comparison to the E2000, which they went ahead and bought for 60m euro a pop.


The Mig29 might just not be cheaper for us. for its a devil to maintain. (Rd33K 's performance is still unknown. ).
Then again, we will be locally producing the MiG as well and this should make maintenance easier. Again, refer to article above - the new engines are supposed to be v.good. Plus you have TVC involved.


Though even the F16 has become a strong contender with the developments in the last one month. The IAF is looking at the Plane now. The Americans can offer better prices and better concessions( but of course only i they want to which is still doubtful. ). The AI deail with Boeing for 6 B$ is a sign that we might just buy american this time. Though whats unclear is incentives are the americans offering.


I would not be surprised if they offered us an awesome version of the f16 (aesa and all), but the indians would seriously hesitate to take it up considering the Pakistanis have the same plane (even if a little older version) and that the chinese are bound to get their hands on them.

Instead, they may want to think of an MKIzed F18 (a cross between the original and Super Hornet - new engines, smaller aircraft + aesa would make it one hot a/c, it would not be that much bigger than the MiG29s). I wonder if this would be a good idea.. hmm another one for the experts to ponder over (highsea, M2Sniper where are you?) perhaps i should start a new thread :)

Ajay, this is all very well, but i'm still waiting for your opinion on which plane you consider to be a better a/c performance wise, A2A and A@G. :)

Regards,
USS.

uss
29 Apr 05,, 02:40
Further advantage of MiG29M2 over Mirage 2000:

How much more can the Mirage evolve? Dassault seems to want to move away from this a/c and go more towards Rafale. Plus, the french upgrade packages cost a good chunk of the good stuff!

On the other hand, the MiG29M2 is set to evolve (esp. in indian hands) just like the SU 30. They are already talking of slaving the Brahmos to the MiG. Who knows, in some time they may start adding composites in a big way to reduce the RCS (as planned for the SU 30).

The whole problem with the Mirage is that it is too darned expensive for the stuff that it provides. I'm increasingly thinking the MiG29M2MKI is the way to go. Equal or more bang for less buck!

Just my two bits.

REgards,
USS.

highsea
29 Apr 05,, 03:17
...They are already talking of slaving the Brahmos to the MiG. Who's "they"? Do you have a link?

Do you know how big a Brahmos is? It's 8 meters long and weighs 6000 lbs. The centerline hardpoint on the MiG-29 can handle about 3000 lbs. max., even if you could squeeze the missile between the engines, (which you can't), you would break the AC trying to take off with a 3 ton missile on the center station.

The MiG-29 is 17 meters long, the SU-30 is 22 meters, and it's very questionable if you can shrink the Brahmos to the point where even the Flanker can handle one. There is no way you are going to hang it on a Fulcrum.

Dima
29 Apr 05,, 03:51
The M2Ks can be started faster will invovle lesser investment for maintenance

offering.

and why do you say that?


the Brahmos will fit on the Flanker for sure, it can handle 8,000 lbs. of ordnance

good links uss, thanks

highsea
29 Apr 05,, 04:16
the Brahmos will fit on the Flanker for sure, it can handle 8,000 lbs. of ordnance Great, all you have to do is cut it up into 6 pieces... :rolleyes:

Notice I was talking about the Fulcrum, not the Flanker. I only mentioned the Flanker because the last news I heard from India concerning shrinking the Brahmos for the Flanker was that they had all but given up on the idea. But since you have it all figured out, why don't you give them a call and let them know it's no problem?

uss
29 Apr 05,, 04:43
Who's "they"? Do you have a link?

Do you know how big a Brahmos is? It's 8 meters long and weighs 6000 lbs. The centerline hardpoint on the MiG-29 can handle about 3000 lbs. max., even if you could squeeze the missile between the engines, (which you can't), you would break the AC trying to take off with a 3 ton missile on the center station.

The MiG-29 is 17 meters long, the SU-30 is 22 meters, and it's very questionable if you can shrink the Brahmos to the point where even the Flanker can handle one. There is no way you are going to hang it on a Fulcrum.


Hello Highsea,

I will try to find the (some russian) link for a pic where the brahmos (actually the Yahkont PJ10?) was placed under the wing area of a MiG29. This is not going to be easy hence the word "them" :). Although I have not found any confirmed sources for this information, the image is there and it is said that the program is still in the feasibilty study level. My point is, in the future this could very well be a possibility, esp. if they introduce more composites to the MiG and thereby reduce its weight.

The Flanker (SU30 MKI) is expected and shown on models to carry 3 brahmos http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/events/images/Brahmos06.jpg.
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_418.shtml

OK here is a pic of a MIG29 with the Yakhont/brahmos
grr, how do i post an image? i'm trying but it does not seem to work. Ok, even though I can't post an image, here is a link that the Yakhont M (airl launched) missile, which is similar to the brahmos is speculated to be hooked up to a MiG 29: http://www.nti.org/db/nisprofs/russia/exports/general/expmsl.htm.

The air-launched version, known as the Yakhont-M, is still in the design stage and is expected to be deployed on Mig-29, Su-27, Su-30 and Su-32 fighters.

So, even though they may not have already done it, perhaps in the future one may see a MiG29 carry a brahmos or Yakhont type missile. They probably will reduce it's weight by some 500kgs. Admittedly it is expected that the M2k 2000-5 will carry the Scalp EG: http://www.mbda.net/escalp.html.

Regards,
USS.

highsea
29 Apr 05,, 05:20
USS- I have read those articles, and I have seen the models. If you look at the model on the stand, and compare it to an SU-30 on the ground, you can't help but notice that the center mount would completely block the nose gear. It's nothing but speculation, and as I mentioned, the latest news is not promising wrt putting the Brahmos/Yakhont on a diet, as the range is reduced to around 120km, which is not considered useful.

You cannot hang a 6000 or even a 5000 pound missile on a MiG-29 wing (or the SU-30, for that matter). You would need one on each wing to balance, and you would be way over MTOW. Likewise you cannot hang three of them on a Flanker. The most you can get is one on a center point, which would have to be moved back and severly beefed up. If you tried to carry them on the wings, you would have to launch them together, and that is not practical. And 15,000-18,000 pounds of missiles puts you way over MTOW anyway.

There is a physical limit to how much weight you can put on a hardpoint without breaking it, even in the mildest of manouvers like simply taking off. The combat/fuel load is spread out over the airframe for a reason. If you start to try to put that kind of weight on a wing point, you will get a very fast and expensive lesson in wing fatigue.

Fighter planes are not bombers, and models mean nothing. If India gets the TU-22's, then she will have a decent platform to develop an air launched version of the Brahmos. Until that time, it's just fantasy.

uss
29 Apr 05,, 05:32
USS- I have read those articles, and I have seen the models. If you look at the model on the stand, and compare it to an SU-30 on the ground, you can't help but notice that the center mount would completely block the nose gear. It's nothing but speculation, and as I mentioned, the latest news is not promising wrt putting the Brahmos/Yakhont on a diet, as the range is reduced to around 120km, which is not considered useful.

You cannot hang a 6000 or even a 5000 pound missile on a MiG-29 wing (or the SU-30, for that matter). You would need one on each wing to balance, and you would be way over MTOW. Likewise you cannot hang three of them on a Flanker. The most you can get is one on a center point, which would have to be moved back and severly beefed up. If you tried to carry them on the wings, you would have to launch them together, and that is not practical. And 15,000-18,000 pounds of missiles puts you way over MTOW anyway.

There is a physical limit to how much weight you can put on a hardpoint without breaking it, even in the mildest of manouvers like simply taking off. The combat/fuel load is spread out over the airframe for a reason. If you start to try to put that kind of weight on a wing point, you will get a very fast and expensive lesson in wing fatigue.

Fighter planes are not bombers, and models mean nothing. If India gets the TU-22's, then she will have a decent platform to develop an air launched version of the Brahmos. Until that time, it's just fantasy.

Hi Highsea,

Hmm, I hope you are wrong :) , but am afraid you are right :frown: Let us see how it pans out. I had similar doubts but tend to be a little optimistic (can't blame me - recent media reports say that the SU30 will start carrying the brahmos by 2007) . May be the MiG29 can carry just one down the middle. Heck, if not the brahmos, perhaps it can carry the KH 59M at least. This has range comparable to Scalp EG. Although, I don't know how it fares when it comes to excellent jammers.

Regards,
USS.

ajaybhutani
29 Apr 05,, 14:06
Man, that should reduce the price of the M2K as well (don't use thier radar, ecm etc)


The best available will be used.(i hope so). The cost for even the french radars etc will not be much when produced in india. India will churn out most of the plane (except the ones brought straight away. But as i said before the M2K as a lot much cheaper to maintain than Mig29( as far as the IAFs experience is concerned. They are much cheaper to fly and much more convenient to handle. As far as avionics is concerned only the best shud go in and as it all will be made in india the high cost factor with french dsnt come into picture. (except for the first few).



Perhaps, the french are known for being v. pricey. Scorpene is a good example. Heck the Mirage is probably amongst the most expensive planes in the IAF inventory.

Their maintenance costs is quite less.


The new MiG 29K due to arrive in 2007 is estimtd at $ 32 m a piece. If we mass produce something like this, the cost would probably come down to $25m per plane.

The problem is time needed to get the plane ready. And we dont have time at all. We need something fast and soon.


On the other hand the souped up M2K-5/mk2 is estimated at $ 40-45m per plane.

Thats the cost of french factory roll out. the indian ones will be much cheap after all we are making MKI in 30 mn or lower. LCA in 21 mn M2k wil also cost us less to produce.


Even with TOT and indegineous production, how much lower will it come to? Here is a site Figther prices - http://www.aeronautics.ru/img/img007/fighter_prices.gif. Heck from some estimates, it cost Qatar $1.2bn for it's complete 12 Mirage 2000-5 deal with france (including weapons i believe)! Now that would be expensive.

The maintenance infra is there . The repair experience and handling experience is there. The machine uptime is much better than Mig29.
We wont need the weapons if we dont want them . We can always use russian . Though MICA etc will definitely be brought and also used with MKI and others. That shudnt be included in the price tag in case of india( as india is gonna buy them anyway if they are better than russian offerings for otehr ). In fact if we remove the costs of weapons and the spares(which will be produced in india) i dont really think the cost is so much( as usually the whole package is double the cost of the plane.).




Agreed, this is probably one of the biggest advantages of the Mirage. But then, it would help in a big way to have a prodctn facility for MiG29s when we have so many of them and the navy ordering even more.

IF WE MAKE THE PROCUTION FACILITY. as the cost of production facility will be negiligible for M2K while a lot more for Mig29 not the mention the fact that we are even short of time too.


The naval order is of just 16 rite now(with option for more.). and they were forced to do that.
The ADS might not see teh same plane but Rafale/F18 superhornet. I think it will be better to even put the LCA instead of Mig29. As it wil do a better job than mig29 in most parameters.


Also, this should make maintenance a little easier since we are mass producing them.

That wont realy make the Mig29 more easy to handle. Cheaper to fly(per hour of flight). and easier to maintain.As the russian systems are known to be tradiditonally be more optimized for performance at the expense of service life(for instance the engines.).


Tech support was a pain with the Russians earlier, but now we produce it with TOT in India, where is the question of tech support etc.

That wont change the tech. What matters is if RD33 version offered radars etc really offer so much service life or not. We know that russians had to work a lot toget MKI parts near to the service life specs they mentioned in the MKI deal. and in some case its not even up to the mark yet. MKI deal was a different thing altogether . We wanted a better plane and were ready to invest time as they were gonna go into newer squadrons.. But This purchase isnt the same. this is to fill in the decreasing numbers.the time priority is much much more. And utmost performance can be compromised to some extent for getting the planes fast.


Don't let them fool you, the M2 is a lot more than the SU 30 was (when offered to India) and look at the MKI now. Also please check this article out by Janes' George Mader (he compares the new MiGs v.favorably with blk 40 f16Ds) http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_293.shtml. An Austrian General even conceded this in comparison to the E2000, which they went ahead and bought for 60m euro a pop.

The point to note is that we are even offered the F16 Blk 50/60/70. BTw how does M2K-5 compare to F16 Blk 50??


Then again, we will be locally producing the MiG as well and this should make maintenance easier. Again, refer to article above - the new engines are supposed to be v.good. Plus you have TVC involved.

We will be putting in the TVC in our LCA when kaveri is ready. in MKi we have it. Do we really need it in these planes. ??Is it really needed in the war doctrine. ??
The locally produced Mig wont change the service life of engines radar etc. ( a lot of effort will be done by india increasing but again taht will take money and time). The RD33 must have improved considerably . But is it up to the mark.??We still dont know.India knows that it cannot rely on the figures given by russians in the specs on service life.





I would not be surprised if they offered us an awesome version of the f16 (aesa and all), but the indians would seriously hesitate to take it up considering the Pakistanis have the same plane (even if a little older version) and that the chinese are bound to get their hands on them.

The point to note is that This will give us all the info about what all pakistan can feild in. And since our versions will be better than the paksitani ones( and surely the chineese knowledge as its always difficult to imitate it all ) we wont face a problem in bringing down their F16. But with Mig29 i doubt if we can say the Mig29 has an edge. Teh M2k gets an thought due to its excellent maintenance record as the plane is useful only when its avaiable to fly and M2K is hell better than Mig29 in this regard.

The bigger point to consider is that ToT with americans will give us a lot of better tech which will go in LCA MKI and upgrades. while the french and russians cannot offer the tech to such extent. (though again it all depends on what americans are ready to offer).



Instead, they may want to think of an MKIzed F18 (a cross between the original and Super Hornet - new engines, smaller aircraft + aesa would make it one hot a/c, it would not be that much bigger than the MiG29s). I wonder if this would be a good idea.. hmm another one for the experts to ponder over (highsea, M2Sniper where are you?) perhaps i should start a new thread :)

The superhornet is hell good for Naval operations. Its RCS is pretty small(less than/comparable to F16 latest ) and the radar range comparable to that of MKI. I think it will offer much less RCS than Mig29 ,much better radar and avionics than Mig29. And might even help up have a go thru at the american weapons too.
Add to the fact that it shud give much more uptime.If we can get it even at double the cost of Mig29. Its worth it. Add to the fact that boing might be interested in outsourcing parts of F18 etc to india considering its increased interest in outsourcing work for civilian planes. If we can clinch a deal with some meat for out companies in the form of orders and cross dependence , Its a hell good of a plane.
Further out here i would like to mention one of the arguments put froth in BR by one of the guys for indias american purchases. The day chineese get a chance to buy from the west they will buy it knowing that in a few years the machines will not be supplied with spares . We can learn from the western systems and who else except the americans can offer the best tech .


Ajay, this is all very well, but i'm still waiting for your opinion on which plane you consider to be a better a/c performance wise, A2A and A@G. :)

Regards,
USS.
For perforance wise(putting politics and spare bans from americans out of picture). my vote is on
1. F16 latest. or F18 whatever suits us. for the doctrine.
2. M2K
3. the LCA
4. Mig29.

uss
29 Apr 05,, 23:03
The best available will be used.(i hope so). The cost for even the french radars etc will not be much when produced in india. India will churn out most of the plane (except the ones brought straight away. But as i said before the M2K as a lot much cheaper to maintain than Mig29( as far as the IAFs experience is concerned. They are much cheaper to fly and much more convenient to handle. As far as avionics is concerned only the best shud go in and as it all will be made in india the high cost factor with french dsnt come into picture. (except for the first few).


Their maintenance costs is quite less.

The problem is time needed to get the plane ready. And we dont have time at all. We need something fast and soon.

Thats the cost of french factory roll out. the indian ones will be much cheap after all we are making MKI in 30 mn or lower. LCA in 21 mn M2k wil also cost us less to produce.

The maintenance infra is there . The repair experience and handling experience is there. The machine uptime is much better than Mig29.
We wont need the weapons if we dont want them . We can always use russian . Though MICA etc will definitely be brought and also used with MKI and others. That shudnt be included in the price tag in case of india( as india is gonna buy them anyway if they are better than russian offerings for otehr ). In fact if we remove the costs of weapons and the spares(which will be produced in india) i dont really think the cost is so much( as usually the whole package is double the cost of the plane.).



IF WE MAKE THE PROCUTION FACILITY. as the cost of production facility will be negiligible for M2K while a lot more for Mig29 not the mention the fact that we are even short of time too.


The naval order is of just 16 rite now(with option for more.). and they were forced to do that.
The ADS might not see teh same plane but Rafale/F18 superhornet. I think it will be better to even put the LCA instead of Mig29. As it wil do a better job than mig29 in most parameters.

That wont realy make the Mig29 more easy to handle. Cheaper to fly(per hour of flight). and easier to maintain.As the russian systems are known to be tradiditonally be more optimized for performance at the expense of service life(for instance the engines.).


That wont change the tech. What matters is if RD33 version offered radars etc really offer so much service life or not. We know that russians had to work a lot toget MKI parts near to the service life specs they mentioned in the MKI deal. and in some case its not even up to the mark yet. MKI deal was a different thing altogether . We wanted a better plane and were ready to invest time as they were gonna go into newer squadrons.. But This purchase isnt the same. this is to fill in the decreasing numbers.the time priority is much much more. And utmost performance can be compromised to some extent for getting the planes fast.


The point to note is that we are even offered the F16 Blk 50/60/70. BTw how does M2K-5 compare to F16 Blk 50??


We will be putting in the TVC in our LCA when kaveri is ready. in MKi we have it. Do we really need it in these planes. ??Is it really needed in the war doctrine. ??
The locally produced Mig wont change the service life of engines radar etc. ( a lot of effort will be done by india increasing but again taht will take money and time). The RD33 must have improved considerably . But is it up to the mark.??We still dont know.India knows that it cannot rely on the figures given by russians in the specs on service life.




The point to note is that This will give us all the info about what all pakistan can feild in. And since our versions will be better than the paksitani ones( and surely the chineese knowledge as its always difficult to imitate it all ) we wont face a problem in bringing down their F16. But with Mig29 i doubt if we can say the Mig29 has an edge. Teh M2k gets an thought due to its excellent maintenance record as the plane is useful only when its avaiable to fly and M2K is hell better than Mig29 in this regard.

The bigger point to consider is that ToT with americans will give us a lot of better tech which will go in LCA MKI and upgrades. while the french and russians cannot offer the tech to such extent. (though again it all depends on what americans are ready to offer).


The superhornet is hell good for Naval operations. Its RCS is pretty small(less than/comparable to F16 latest ) and the radar range comparable to that of MKI. I think it will offer much less RCS than Mig29 ,much better radar and avionics than Mig29. And might even help up have a go thru at the american weapons too.
Add to the fact that it shud give much more uptime.If we can get it even at double the cost of Mig29. Its worth it. Add to the fact that boing might be interested in outsourcing parts of F18 etc to india considering its increased interest in outsourcing work for civilian planes. If we can clinch a deal with some meat for out companies in the form of orders and cross dependence , Its a hell good of a plane.
Further out here i would like to mention one of the arguments put froth in BR by one of the guys for indias american purchases. The day chineese get a chance to buy from the west they will buy it knowing that in a few years the machines will not be supplied with spares . We can learn from the western systems and who else except the americans can offer the best tech .


For perforance wise(putting politics and spare bans from americans out of picture). my vote is on
1. F16 latest. or F18 whatever suits us. for the doctrine.
2. M2K
3. the LCA
4. Mig29.

hello Ajay,

I do have a suspicious feeling that the MiG29M2 is highly underrated. They could do wonders with this plane just like the big Suk in Indian hands. They may consider the EL 2052 (AESA radar possible for the mig29 upg program by the way) :) . This would make the plane a beast to reckon with. The EL 2052 just went into flight testing a few days ago.

However, I do believe you are right in putting the Mirage on top of the MRCA req. list because of its strong points (such as bringing it upto operational status asap). My big gripe with the Mirage is :
Expensive compared to the MiG29M2
I'm not so sure about it's a2a capacity vis a vis the SUk30mki or the MiG29M2, both of which have hms, TVC, longer ranged aams, and equally or more powerful radars.
I'm not too impressed by the Rdy 2 radar (now if they give us the Rafale RBE2, it might make me think a little differently ;) )

If they do infact go with the M2K, I hope it is with the EL 2052 :).

I will try to find some links regarding this possibility soon. Flight INtl had an article on the EL 2052 being designed for the Mirage 2k and the Su 30. If they could get it on the Mirage (a smaller plane) why not the Mig29M2. Heck, a Mig29 fan can at least hope :) http://www.flightinternational.com/FALANDING_194211.htm

Politically, I believe they will go for the F16/18 deal, esp. if they sign the exhorbitant Scorpene deal and get the Americans to give them an aesa. This way the French are happy, the Russians already have a whole list of indian orders and diversification of purchases is achieved. One BIG advantage of going with the U.S. - our tech is unlikely to find its way into the hands of the Pakistanis and esp. the Chinese. On the other hand, this is likely in case of France, Israel and Russia, which have shown great interest in supplying China with latest tech.

Regards,
USS.

Regards,
USS.

ajaybhutani
29 Apr 05,, 23:51
hello Ajay,

I do have a suspicious feeling that the MiG29M2 is highly underrated. They could do wonders with this plane just like the big Suk in Indian hands. They may consider the EL 2052 (AESA radar possible for the mig29 upg program by the way) :) . This would make the plane a beast to reckon with. The EL 2052 just went into flight testing a few days ago.

Rating is surely affected by bad mainenance results of Mig29s in india.
Though rite now the matter is more of timely deliveries.the point is is Mig29M2 complete( i dont think the TVC is tested and certified. BARs29 isnt ready. and so will be many other components). The time frame for getting the Mig29 kills the possibility of getting it in spite of it being a possiblity that it can be a better aircraft or not. IAF todays wants surely of delivery. Cost is not the issue as long as it is under control and the increased cost will be compromised with the reduced mainenance and flight costs.
Indians have already signed a contract for upgrading their Mig29(am i rite??)..So i guess in a few days it will be claer to india wether the Mig29M can be induced in due time or not.
About teh Radar i m sorry m unaware of the status of EL2052. Can u qyute me for it.).




However, I do believe you are right in putting the Mirage on top of the MRCA req. list because of its strong points (such as bringing it upto operational status asap). My big gripe with the Mirage is :
Expensive compared to the MiG29M2
I'm not so sure about it's a2a capacity vis a vis the SUk30mki or the MiG29M2,

We need to make sure that the radar is good. Integration of R77 etc wil not be a big problem for indians We did it for M2K-H we will do it for M2k-5.


both of which have hms, TVC, longer ranged aams, and equally or more powerful radars.



1.LCA plans for HMS. the same will go in M2K if the deal goes thru.
2. Radar is a problem. Can explain furhter on the options available on the radars for us. The French will do all that they can to get the deal thru. So i wont be surprised if they offer the technologies from Rafale.




I will try to find some links regarding this possibility soon. Flight INtl had an article on the EL 2052 being designed for the Mirage 2k and the Su 30. If they could get it on the Mirage (a smaller plane) why not the Mig29M2. Heck, a Mig29 fan can at least hope :) http://www.flightinternational.com/FALANDING_194211.htm

If this article is right The radar isnt really tested. We need to wait and see what hte performance of the radar.
BTW whats the cross section for M2K radar.


Politically, I believe they will go for the F16/18 deal, esp. if they sign the exhorbitant Scorpene deal and get the Americans to give them an aesa. This way the French are happy, the Russians already have a whole list of indian orders and diversification of purchases is achieved. One BIG advantage of going with the U.S. - our tech is unlikely to find its way into the hands of the Pakistanis and esp. the Chinese. On the other hand, this is likely in case of France, Israel and Russia, which have shown great interest in supplying China with latest tech.

Regards,
USS.

Regards,
USS.


The F16 might go thru. But i m worried about the effect of the deal on PAK-Fa. But on the other hand what options does Russia have . they really cannot think of throwing us out of PAK-Fa rite now. In fact what new we learn(like AESA) will help the project too.
The scorpene deal might not see thru this year. The HDW has nearly stalled it all.
Govt is fighting with NAvy to look at HDW after all it comes at half the price and is theoretically better too. Apart from offering the inventives of customization that frnech arent really convenient. Not to mention the fact that Indians Dont want MESMA in their subs. And the first few Scorpenes arent gonna come with AIP. So a big point to look at the HDW. I support the HDW unless of course the french scorpenes can offer us some significant advantage in making our ATV.

U r rite.The russians already have their hands full with indian orders and as of now they really cannot offer the product good nough for these offers.

I dont think the russians are supplying Chineese with the latest technology. The SU20 deals are an idea. They still dont have the N011M. And if i m right the supplies from the russians for newer SU's have also stopped. If russiand will give china all the tech they have the chineese will not come back and buy at all. Instead eat away the russian market. Russians are playing their cards safe with it. Though they surely are offering a lot to india in terms of joint memberships like Brahmos KH172 PAK-FA.

Dima
30 Apr 05,, 06:14
Great, all you have to do is cut it up into 6 pieces... :rolleyes:

Notice I was talking about the Fulcrum, not the Flanker. I only mentioned the Flanker because the last news I heard from India concerning shrinking the Brahmos for the Flanker was that they had all but given up on the idea. But since you have it all figured out, why don't you give them a call and let them know it's no problem?

but you did mention the Flanker, so i responded to that, what's wrong with that

sure, you got their phone number? lol,

man, highsea, ou're real stressed, just relax, it's only a forum

yea, they could put it on the centre point of the Flanker, but on a Fulcrum, no wya, not yet

the MiG-29 will be cheaper

EL 2052, never heard of that before

actually, the MiG-29M is ready, are you guys talking about two-seat M2 or single seat M?

China has stopped licensed production of the Su-27SK

uss
30 Apr 05,, 06:33
EL 2052, never heard of that before



Hi dima,

check out this link.

http://www.c4isrjournal.com/story.php?F=upcoming

regards,
uSS.

ajaybhutani
30 Apr 05,, 12:49
China has stopped licensed production of the Su-27SK

OH... Are u sure.. What are the chineese producing now ??
BTW any idea about the exact fig of J10s and J11s in PLAAF.

Dima
01 May 05,, 06:59
OH... Are u sure.. What are the chineese producing now ??
BTW any idea about the exact fig of J10s and J11s in PLAAF.

actually yea,

http://sinodefence.com/news/2004/news061104.asp

what absolute fools, they spent about $2.5 billion for the contract in total and only produced 95 out of the 200 expected Su-27SK aircraft

they will possibly go for the new Su-27SMK now

anyways, those fools(sorry, but it's so true) if they followed the license, they wuld have gotten 200 Su-27SK fighters for about $12.5 million per plane which is insanely cheap for an aircraft of such quality, but instead, based on them making only 95 aircraft, they paid about $26.32 MILLION PER MODEL, fools, lol

have they even started producing the J-10? there are 95 J-11's in service with China

highsea
01 May 05,, 21:27
...anyways, those fools(sorry, but it's so true) if they followed the license, they wuld have gotten 200 Su-27SK fighters The PLAAF didn't want any more single role AC. Not a dumb move at all- they need naval strike capability and the SK couldn't do it.

Dima
02 May 05,, 04:08
The PLAAF didn't want any more single role AC. Not a dumb move at all- they need naval strike capability and the SK couldn't do it.

that's true, but nonetheless, they should have just continued because that way they paid $2.5 billion for only 95 planes, which made each aircraft cost $26 million when they could have continued and produced each aircraft for less than $13 million

they need naval strike capability, yea, that's true, that's why they have the MKK, and that's why they're also interested in the Su-30MK2 and Su-30MK3

that's also why they're interested in the Su-27SMK

"dumb"

? what do you mean by that, it's an air superiority fighter, that's all, does that make it dumb?

Bill
02 May 05,, 08:28
The Mig-29SK should be able to be upgraded to shoot AShMs with software and radar upgrades shouldn't it?

uss
06 May 05,, 01:14
The Mig-29SK should be able to be upgraded to shoot AShMs with software and radar upgrades shouldn't it?

I believe this is true for the MiG29 M2 (it should definitely be able to shoot ASMs like Kh 31P). Like I said before, they did consider hooking up a Yakhont to it (who knows if this is possible, but studies are underway). I have not heard ot the SK variant. Heck, with the Bars 29 (or the ZHuk MSF), it would be a beast to reckon with. Of course, with the EL 2052, it would be a totally unrecognizable beast :biggrin:

If the IAF can do to the MiG29 as they did to the SU 30, it would be quite an a/c. I would seriously consider it to be able to take on the Mirage 2000-5 in all aspects, even A2G. It all depends upon the time it takes. Some advantages of purchasing the MiG29M2 - the IAF is currently studying how to upgrade existing MiG29s, if they get them up to a really high standard, it might be worth looking into. This way they can incorporate a lot of upgrade spinoffs into the MRCA purchase and vice versa.


IF WE MAKE THE PROCUTION FACILITY. as the cost of production facility will be negiligible for M2K while a lot more for Mig29 not the mention the fact that we are even short of time too.

Ajay, how do you figure that the MiG will cost more than the Mirage? Just look at the price we are paying the Qataris for the 12 2nd hand mirages ($700 mil). This is waaay steep. Heck, we could get a whole bunch of MiG29Ms for the same price. Even if TOT and indegnous productn reduces the costs (the same would apply to the MiG29s as well by the way), costwise, the Mirage can never match the MiG. Remember this deal is going to take some time anyway (the ACM does not expect it to be finalized till 2007!). In other words, they could probly have upgrade specs ready by then and going into total production after that is just the next step. THe MiG 29k (v.similar to the M) is v.v. close to full production, so the quick productn time advantage the Mirage has does not seem to be so great.


The point to note is that we are even offered the F16 Blk 50/60/70. BTw how does M2K-5 compare to F16 Blk 50??

Ajay, where are they offering us the blk 60s to us with TOT? any links to the same? You think they will give us the AESA so easily? And even if they do, there is a good chance we can get AESA from the Israelis (EL 2052). As regards the blk 50, the M2K has some advantages and the MiG as well (especially after the indians are done fixing 'em up :) - just look at the Suk). I'm certain the IAF will get a better a/c than the PAF irrespective of the planes they choose because they will modify them in every which way to make sure this happens.

Kind Regards,
USS.

ajaybhutani
04 Jun 05,, 16:14
I believe this is true for the MiG29 M2 (it should definitely be able to shoot ASMs like Kh 31P). Like I said before, they did consider hooking up a Yakhont to it (who knows if this is possible, but studies are underway). I have not heard ot the SK variant. Heck, with the Bars 29 (or the ZHuk MSF), it would be a beast to reckon with. Of course, with the EL 2052, it would be a totally unrecognizable beast :biggrin:

do u mean that EL2052 cannot be put in M2k.. if it can then wheres the advantage


Ajay, how do you figure that the MiG will cost more than the Mirage?

i was talking about the production line cost and not the unit cost. considering that we have the repair facility.


Just look at the price we are paying the Qataris for the 12 2nd hand mirages ($700 mil).

can u please give me a link to the price details of the contract. also please care to mention what all is included in the price than just the machine.. for if i m not wrong Qatar did purchase missiles and spares with the M2k.


This is waaay steep. Heck, we could get a whole bunch of MiG29Ms for the same price.

i would prefer a straight comparison of procurement costs in this. Further how can u justify that even the engine of Mig29 will have mean life between services comparable to M2k engine. what are the values available.


Even if TOT and indegnous productn reduces the costs (the same would apply to the MiG29s as well by the way), costwise, the Mirage can never match the MiG.

IAF is flying both mig29 as well as M2k and IAF is hell insisting on M2k today.
.The cost will go down for both Mig29 and M2k . and procurement cost per unit (without spares) shouldnt be much different for the two if they are produced in india. if we can make LCA for 21 mn a peice these machine arent much more complex.
The whole difference that will come in will be in the operating costs which are proven better for M2k the uptime rate again proven better for M2k.as they spend less time in repairs and thus
the newer versions of mig29 arent proven. in fact the version with BARs 29 and TVc engine isnt even flying as engine will need somewhat redesign in airframe dues to changed weights. u cant just replace the engine and radar and fly. similarly if BARS29 weighs more than prev like that of MKI the airframe will need a redesign. It will be more of a mki kind of a project and look at the timeframe that was needed for MKI. from the time first technology demonstrator of MKI flew to the day when the first full rated mki came out. look at the time needed. and if we procude like we did or mKI(buying mk's to make up the numbers which cannot be upgraded ).
we will end up getting not so capable versions of Mig29 which will not be able to compete with M2k-5 versions which are flying. And further why do u think better avionics from france will not come in M2k indian version in the next 3 years when the deal gets signed in 2007.



Remember this deal is going to take some time anyway (the ACM does not expect it to be finalized till 2007!). In other words, they could probly have upgrade specs ready by then and going into total production after that is just the next step. THe MiG 29k (v.similar to the M) is v.v. close to full production, so the quick productn time advantage the Mirage has does not seem to be so great.

firstly has the Technology demonstrator for Mig29K flown with a radar and newer engine etc. then whats the basis of "close to production".
then the M2k-5 is flying and by the time Mig29M2 is ready tested the frnech would have added better things to their product too. why do u think the french will not upgrade their Mirage2000.



Ajay, where are they offering us the blk 60s to us with TOT? any links to the same? You think they will give us the AESA so easily? And even if they do, there is a good chance we can get AESA from the Israelis (EL 2052).

if they dont they are clearly out of picture. Both india and US know that.


As regards the blk 50, the M2K has some advantages and the MiG as well (especially after the indians are done fixing 'em up :) - just look at the Suk). I'm certain the IAF will get a better a/c than the PAF irrespective of the planes they choose because they will modify them in every which way to make sure this happens.

Kind Regards,
USS.
indians surely will get better planes than pakistan just because we have more money and after all the big fish get more advantages.
the Mig29 mkized is far away from picture rite now. Its unfair to compare it to F16 blk 50/52 or M2k-5 as they exist for otherwise we can simply put LCA into picture and it better than the three of these.

uss
02 Jul 05,, 07:28
ajaybhutani]do u mean that EL2052 cannot be put in M2k.. if it can then wheres the advantage

Ajay, I have already noted that advantages of the MiG29 many times over. considering that the Indian navy is already buying some also offers some advantages. A2A I just don't see how a Mirage is going to outperform a MiG29M/K version with TVC. Even A2G the new MiG 29s are a beast to reckon with.


i was talking about the production line cost and not the unit cost. considering that we have the repair facility. can u please give me a link to the price details of the contract. also please care to mention what all is included in the price than just the machine.. for if i m not wrong Qatar did purchase missiles and spares with the M2k. i would prefer a straight comparison of procurement costs in this.

we also have a repair and overhaul facility for the MiG29. the price details of the qatari contract can be found by doing a simple google search. I will try to find it for you.


Further how can u justify that even the engine of Mig29 will have mean life between services comparable to M2k engine. what are the values available.
This I will have to research..


IAF is flying both mig29 as well as M2k and IAF is hell insisting on M2k today.
.The cost will go down for both Mig29 and M2k . and procurement cost per unit (without spares) shouldnt be much different for the two if they are produced in india. if we can make LCA for 21 mn a peice these machine arent much more complex.
Agreed that the IAF likes the Mirage, but nowhere have they complained about the MiG29. No matter how much the price comes down, the MiG will always be cheaper.


The whole difference that will come in will be in the operating costs which are proven better for M2k the uptime rate again proven better for M2k.as they spend less time in repairs and thus the newer versions of mig29 arent proven.
where did you get the information that the uptime for the MiG29 is not as good as the Mirage and the IAF is not happy with it, esp. in recent times? newer versions will be proven once people start using them. Assuredly, there are more MiG29s in world airforces than M2Ks


in fact the version with BARs 29 and TVc engine isnt even flying as engine will need somewhat redesign in airframe dues to changed weights. u cant just replace the engine and radar and fly. similarly if BARS29 weighs more than prev like that of MKI the airframe will need a redesign.
Please ajay, the MiG29 M2 with TVC already flew in AeroIndia 05. If the radar is specifically designed for the a/c as the the Bars 29 is (hence 29!), it should not be so difficult especially considering that the IAF is already deciding on an upgrade for the existing MiG29s. And yes, don't forget the IN is scheduled to get the single seated MiG29k (which by the way is v. similar to the MiG 29M/M2) at the end of this year.


It will be more of a mki kind of a project and look at the timeframe that was needed for MKI. from the time first technology demonstrator of MKI flew to the day when the first full rated mki came out. look at the time needed. and if we procude like we did or mKI(buying mk's to make up the numbers which cannot be upgraded ).
we will end up getting not so capable versions of Mig29 which will not be able to compete with M2k-5 versions which are flying. And further why do u think better avionics from france will not come in M2k indian version in the next 3 years when the deal gets signed in 2007.
there is too much speculation in the above reasoning. How do you know that procurement won't be faster now that we have learnt from previous mistakes and that procurement policies are supposed to get more transparent. Even if this does not happen, the GOI does not seem to be in any hurry as the first deliveries of this MRCA are to start in 2009 ( 4 more years). in this much time they could sure as hell use the experience they have had with the MKI and make the MiG29 it's smaller partner, thereby increasing interoperability as well.


firstly has the Technology demonstrator for Mig29K flown with a radar and newer engine etc. then whats the basis of "close to production".
then the M2k-5 is flying and by the time Mig29M2 is ready tested the frnech would have added better things to their product too. why do u think the french will not upgrade their Mirage2000.
Please refer to above explanation and yeah, the french aren't so great about having their planes so perfectly ready either - the recent mirages given to the greek airforce had to be done without the vaunted ICMS MK 3 ECM suite. So much for french readiness. They are now liable to pay a penalty to the greeks. Go figure.



if they dont they are clearly out of picture. Both india and US know that.
indians surely will get better planes than pakistan just because we have more money and after all the big fish get more advantages.
the Mig29 mkized is far away from picture rite now. Its unfair to compare it to F16 blk 50/52 or M2k-5 as they exist for otherwise we can simply put LCA into picture and it better than the three of these.[/

All said and done, I do agree that the mirage is probly a better bet as of right now because it seems to be in it's completed avatar. but considering that the IAF will take another 3 years to even decide which plane they want....I would prefer the MiG29MKI vs the Mirage 2000. And also considering that the MiG29ks are all set for delivery, I may have to further disagree with going for the Mirages

Regards,
USS.

hello
02 Jul 05,, 07:48
What India should do is sell all of its Mig-21s, foxbats and floggers and buy some SU-35s, Gripens, Rafales or Eurofighters. :biggrin:
There the closest thing to a 5th gen fighter india can get. :biggrin:

indianguy4u
02 Jul 05,, 09:16
What India should do is sell all of its Mig-21s, foxbats and floggers and buy some SU-35s, Gripens, Rafales or Eurofighters. :biggrin:
There the closest thing to a 5th gen fighter india can get. :biggrin:

Instead of buying the AC u suggested, it will be better to procure Tejas.

Also IAF can wait for PAK-FA which should be on par if not better than rafale/eurofighter.

indianguy4u
02 Jul 05,, 09:18
What i think is that Mirage being single engine is cost effective than twin engined Mig 29M2/K.

hammer
02 Jul 05,, 11:01
Please ajay, the MiG29 M2 with TVC already flew in AeroIndia 05.

It looks very different from the TVC that the Su-30MKI has. I am not even sure if it is a TVC. Just take a look at this pic and someone pls confirm.

uss
03 Jul 05,, 03:41
Hammer this looks like a great picture, but how does it prove anything about TVC? Also, it just shows one engine!
There are some other pictures that show this ability but damned if i can find one. Here is a picture that does better justice:
how the heck does one paste/insert a picture? could someone help?

In any case the MiG29 did manouvers like the Cobra at AI 2005, which I don't think ordinary a/c without tvc can perform. Again, I don't know how the MiG's TVC stacks up against the MKI, but in either case, the mirage does not have this.

hello
03 Jul 05,, 03:49
I'm not sure if the Pak-Fa will ever enter operational service and will probably have the fate of the Mig-MAPO and S-37. At least SU-35 exists.

hammer
03 Jul 05,, 18:03
Hammer this looks like a great picture, but how does it prove anything about TVC? Also, it just shows one engine!

Check the TVC of the Su-30 MKI in the first picture. Compare it with the Mig29 M2 in the second one.

indianguy4u
04 Jul 05,, 07:23
I think JSF also have TVC, am i right?

Other than maneuverability whats its use?

highsea
04 Jul 05,, 10:11
IG4U, buy a book or a magazine or something....

Here's another good one for you- when was the last time you saw a IAF MiG-29 doing anything but being a hangar queen?

Hint:...never....

highsea
04 Jul 05,, 10:17
hammer- the TVC is the OVT. Not the M or M2. RD-133, not 33 or 93. Russian Alphabet soup. Yum Yum.


...Other than maneuverability whats its use? It ain't mongoose maneuvers, I'll tell you that.

Two things- supersonic maneuvers- getting into position to engage- no control surfaces to deflect and eat energy. Second- somewhat smart FBW will adapt and get a broken AC back to base. TVC can sometimes fix a bent wing in the get-home scenario.

hammer
04 Jul 05,, 11:16
hammer- the TVC is the OVT.

Okay, got it now. Thanks.

uss
06 Jul 05,, 18:25
Check the TVC of the Su-30 MKI in the first picture. Compare it with the Mig29 M2 in the second one.

Hammer, again, the pic for the MiG29 does not really show any TVC capability. And I meant TVC for the MRCA (malaysian purchase), probly with the OVT engines. Here is a pic of the MiG29 OVT which shows the tvc engine:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread114200/pg1
go to the v.bottom of the forum.

damned if i can find the picture of the MRCA with TVC (i believe it was v. similar to the picture of the SU MKI that you have posted above).

Regards,
USS.

hammer
06 Jul 05,, 19:15
Hammer, again, the pic for the MiG29 does not really show any TVC capability. And I meant TVC for the MRCA (malaysian purchase), probly with the OVT engines.

USS,
Those MiG29M2 pics were taken in AI05. Yeah the malaysian ones might have the OVT.

uss
06 Jul 05,, 22:34
USS,
Those MiG29M2 pics were taken in AI05. Yeah the malaysian ones might have the OVT.


hammer, I know those pics were taken at AI 05 (by B harry I believe), but they do not in any way show the MIG29's TVC feature. in sharp contrast to the SU MKI pics.

Kind Regards,
USS.

uss
06 Jul 05,, 23:10
hammer, I know those pics were taken at AI 05 (by B harry I believe), but they do not in any way show the MIG29's TVC feature. in sharp contrast to the SU MKI pics.

Kind Regards,
USS.


Ajay and hammer,

I stand corrected, the MiG29M2 at AI 2005 did not have TVC (just confirmed with sources more informed than me - no m2 does!), however, the M2 is offered with TVC.

It will be interesting to see if the MiG29Ks (those for the Gorshkov) come with TVC (I seriously doubt it considering it might mean increased maintenance haggles onboard an a/c carrier)

Kind Regards,
USS.

uss
07 Jul 05,, 23:39
The Mig-29SK should be able to be upgraded to shoot AShMs with software and radar upgrades shouldn't it?


here is some more information on the miG 29K which India is slated to receive by the end of this year (or is it 2007?) is pretty well equipped and has a diverse weapons platform:

here is a quote from a MiG press release:

"MiG-29K combat payload makes 5500 kg, number of hardpoints – 13 (including the ones on multi-lock bomb carriers). Range of weapons includes "air-to-air" missiles - R-73E and RVV-AE, "air-to-ground" missiles - Kh-31P, Kh-31A, Kh-35E, rockets, bombs (including guided KAB-500Kr and KAB-500-OD) and built-in 30-mm autocannon." http://www.migavia.ru/eng/news/?page=1&tid=4&id=18

now i don't know what 13 hardpoints means (that makes it as much as the MKI!). I think it is more likely that it will get 9 hardpoints, which is equal to that to of the M2000-5. There are also talks about hooking an airlaunched Klub missile (as brahmos seems unlikely) for this ASHM role.

all in all coupled with a strengthened airframe, increased fuel capacity, IFR (buddy to buddy included), a powerful Zhuk ME, Israeli ECM this a/c has some fangs.

I think this purchase along with the upgrade package of the Mig29 (once decided) will clearly make the competition for the MRCA a whole lot hotter. Mirage 2000-5 etc better watch out!

oh and those who think that producing the Mirage will be cheaper or even similar to the MiG 29, please check these numbers out:
India paid over $ 30m p.plane for 10 Mirage 2000 Hs! http://www.sipri.org/contents/armstrad/REG_IMP_IND_94-04.pdf
The Mirage 2000-5 is far more expensive - http://www.caat.org.uk/information/publications/countries/qatar-1002.php states:
"In 1994 they completed deals, signed by the then French Defence Minister, Francois Leotard, for twelve Dassault Mirage 2000-5 fighters (worth around $1.3 billion), packaged with the Matra Apache stand-off weapon (with a range of 150km) and the Matra Mica medium-range air-to-air missile. "

That comes to over a 100 mil $s per Mirage (ammo included i'spose). Now I don't care what kind of production the Indians do, the price is NOT going to come down below $40 m p. mirage.
ON the other hand the MiG 29K cost india around $740 million for 12 planes (weapons included, i assume). so, do the math: $ 61 m for Mig29 Vs $ 100+ for Mirage 2000 H. If production reduces this figure for the Mirage, the same should apply for the MiG as well.
In fact as Troung has pointed out in one of his previous posts the IAF went for the SU30MKI as opposed to the MIrage simply because of cost. thank goodness that the MKI turned out to be a scary beast in the end!

I shall try to find some info on how the 2 a/c match up on other specs like radars (RDY and Zhuk MF), eCM suite, Optronic suites, weapons etc), this would give us a better picture. Posters are of course welcome to critique and bring in their own info.

Kind Regards,
USS.

uss
21 Jul 05,, 17:27
Here is some bad news regarding the M2K - 5 Vs the MiG29 M2 (for the M2000 fans that is):

Poor TWR, turn rates esp. at lower speeds, AoA vis a vis Mig29. Overall WVR, not much comparison between the 2 a/c. MiG29 has big edge.

No IRST ( :eek: )

Currently NO long ranged BVR (other than Amraam C, which of course IAF does not have in arsenal). Meteor will come in time (2010)! God knows what the MiG29 would have in the future - R37/KS 172?

The Zhuk M (or even better Bars 29) seems to have more range and power (still to ascertain this, v.difficult to find info on RDY2, help anyone?).


A2A, it looks pretty bleak for the Mirage, and the above is a comparison with the older gen Mig 29s, the newer ones have better AoA, more powerful engines (probly better TwR), RCS reduction x10. Much better IRST than original with improved range among more goodies.

Regards,
USS.

highsea
21 Jul 05,, 17:46
Currently NO long ranged BVR (other than Amraam C, which of course IAF does not have in arsenal). Mirage 2K5 does not carry AMRAAM. THe BVRAAM is the MICA EM, and YES, it is certified for carry.

A2A, it looks pretty bleak for the Mirage Lol, they seemed to hold their own at Garuda against SU-30's.

uss
21 Jul 05,, 18:49
Mirage 2K5 does not carry AMRAAM. THe BVRAAM is the MICA EM, and YES, it is certified for carry.
Lol, they seemed to hold their own at Garuda against SU-30's.

Ehem,

Point 1: Not in Garuda I and NOT in WVR! ADA M2000s were overly matched by IAF M2000s in Garuda I in WVR. Let alone Mig 29s.

Point 2: IAF does not yet have the MiG29 M type, which is the a/c under scrutiny. the a/c in garuda I were the MiG 29b type if at all used, which i seriously doubt. the IAF M2000 was good enough in the WVR vs ADA M2000, kinda old and still came out on top WVR! MiG 29s would have been overkill considering that IAF MiG29s routinely best IAF Mirage 2000s in DACT.

Point 3: I have not come across any concrete news that gave any indications of SU 30 performance VS M2K-5 WVR. Just some basic stuff.

Point 4: Mica EM does not have the range to challenge an r77.

Point 5: it is no great shakes that the ADA M2000-5s "held their own" against an older and not so advanced foe, the basic flanker, esp in BVR. It carries the N001 radar for land's sake. And like I said couldnt find anything concrete on WVR.

By the way, good to see you highsea. the intention is to evaluate which would be a better a/c for IAF MRCA requirement. MiG 29MKI (just like SU 30MKI, just smaller) or Mirage 2000-5/9. The Mirage may have some A2G advantages but A2A, the MiG seems to have it by the short ones :) I'm still discussing the A2A part, A2G for later ( but you can always start).

An aside, I could have sworn I have seen pics of ADA mirages carrying Amraam - will try to dig em up, if so.

Peace,
USS.

indianguy4u
21 Jul 05,, 19:11
Point 2: IAF does not yet have the MiG29 M type, which is the a/c under scrutiny. the a/c in garuda I were the MiG 29b type if at all used, which i seriously doubt. the IAF M2000 was good enough in the WVR vs ADA M2000, kinda old and still came out on top WVR! MiG 29s would have been overkill considering that IAF MiG29s routinely best IAF Mirage 2000s in DACT.
In WVR IAF came out tops due to default as french spend more time in BVR & not WVR.

highsea
21 Jul 05,, 19:16
Point 1: Not in Garuda I and NOT in WVR! ADA M2000s were overly matched by IAF M2000s in Garuda I in WVR. Let alone Mig 29s. I was not talking about WVR, just A2A capabilities in general. The Mirage 2K5 did show that it was capable against the SU-30 in Garuda II.

Point 2: IAF does not yet have the MiG29 M type, which is the a/c under scrutiny. the a/c in garuda I were the MiG 29b type if at all used, which i seriously doubt. the IAF M2000 was good enough in the WVR vs ADA M2000, kinda old and still came out on top WVR! MiG 29s would have been overkill considering that IAF MiG29s routinely best IAF Mirage 2000s in DACT. I did not comment about the MiG-29M. I was referring to the Miage 2000-5 only, and only to the points that I quoted in my response.

Point 4: Mica EM does not have the range to challenge an r77.The SU-30's in Garuda II were equipped with R-77's, and the M2K5's had MICA EM's. So draw your own conclusions.

Point 5: it is no great shakes that the ADA M2000-5s "held their own" against an older and not so advanced foe, the basic flanker, esp in BVR. It carries the N001 radar for land's sake. And like I said couldnt find anything concrete on WVR.Whatever. :rolleyes:

By the way, good to see you highsea. the intention is to evaluate which would be a better a/c for IAF MRCA requirement. MiG 29MKI (just like SU 30MKI, just smaller) or Mirage 2000-5/9. The Mirage may have some A2G advantages but A2A, the MiG seems to have it by the short ones :) I'm still discussing the A2A part, A2G for later ( but you can always start). The MiG may be better on paper, but there are other considerations. Anyway, I was not discussing the MRCA tender. Frankly, I could care less. All I was pointing out is that M2K5 carried MICA, not AMRAAM, and has demonstrated capabilities as an A2A platform.

An aside, I could have sworn I have seen pics of ADA mirages carrying Amraam - will try to dig em up, if so. Good luck.

indianguy4u
21 Jul 05,, 19:19
Those su-30 were MKs.

uss
21 Jul 05,, 20:04
Those su-30 were MKs.


IG4U,


Bareilly, June 9 (UNI) An Indian Air Force team, comprising six Su-30K air superiority fighters and an Il-78 mid-air refueller, today left for France to participate in 'Garuda-II' -- the second joint fighter exercise with the French Air Force.

The Su-30Ks, from the No 24 Squadron ('Hunting Hawks') and the Il-78 from the Agra-based Mid Air Refuelling Squadron (MARS), were flagged off from here by Vice Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal S K Malik.

IAF's Sukhois leave for France to participate in 'Garuda-II'
http://www.deepikaglobal.com/latestnews.asp?ncode=28642

There is more stuff on BR, if you want to check in detail.

In either case, my point was whether, Ks or Mks, they operated in Garuda II with the N001 radar, which is really kinda old and obsolete compared to the Rdy 2. One would expect the Mirage 2000-5 to hold its own against the flanker in this config.

Peace,
USS.

uss
21 Jul 05,, 20:19
I was not talking about WVR, just A2A capabilities in general. The Mirage 2K5 did show that it was capable against the SU-30 in Garuda II. I did not comment about the MiG-29M. I was referring to the Miage 2000-5 only, and only to the points that I quoted in my response.

If you read the context in which I had written my post, you would easily conclude that i was writing to compare the A2A capability of the Mig 29M and the MIrage 2000-5. I have clearly stated this in at least 2 earlier posts. That was the whole purpose you know. In either case, could you please show me some source regarding how well the Su 30 did vis a vis the M2000-5.


The SU-30's in Garuda II were equipped with R-77's, and the M2K5's had MICA EM's. So draw your own conclusions.

They can always put caps on missile ranges as they did in copeindia, also, the N001 ( ~80 km) on the flanker could never exploit the full range of the R77 (100km). So the conclusions are obvious, against a Mig29M or K with a zhuk m, where the r77 could be used to full effect, the M2000 would be in trouble.



The MiG may be better on paper, but there are other considerations.
The SU 30MKI also was a paper tiger a few years ago, obviously paper products have a nasty habit of turning up into real monsters once in a while. ;)


All I was pointing out is that M2K5 carried MICA, not AMRAAM, and has demonstrated capabilities as an A2A platform

Point taken, however, this makes it even less effective in A2A (I at least thought it carried the AMRAAM C), sheesh the MiG21 Bison might be too much for the M2000-5 A2A now :biggrin: Obviously, the "demonstrated" ability of the M2000 was against similarly short ranged (radar/weapons range) birds.

Kind regards,
USS.

uss
21 Jul 05,, 20:52
In WVR IAF came out tops due to default as french spend more time in BVR & not WVR.


you are probly right, but I was just trying to point out that the Garuda example given by Highsea is quite irrelevant here, even with regards to the SU 30 involvement. The MiG 29s never took part in either of the Garudas. And least of all the mig 29Ms. If the mirage 2000s are having to "hold their own" against older model Mirage 2000s and Su 30s, then I'm afraid they wont stand much chance against the newer Mig 29Ms in A2A.

Peace,
USS.

highsea
21 Jul 05,, 21:17
If you read the context in which I had written my post, you would easily conclude that i was writing to compare the A2A capability of the Mig 29M and the MIrage 2000-5. I have clearly stated this in at least 2 earlier posts. That was the whole purpose you know. In either case, could you please show me some source regarding how well the Su 30 did vis a vis the M2000-5.If you read mine, you will see I was correcting your misstatements wrt BVR and A2A capabilities. It doesn't matter which X vs. Y comparison you are making. If your reasons are wrong, your comparison is flawed.


Garuda II reportedly focused on Beyond Visual Range (BVR) combat and In-Flight Refueling (IFR) procedures with IAF Sukhoi-30Ks competing against the Adl’A Mirage 2000-5, which incidentally is one of the four multi-role fighter aircraft the IAF is considering buying and is regarded to be the “unofficial frontrunner” due to IAF’s personal fascination for the type. The IAF was keen to learn and absorb French Air Force's ''experience and employment philosophy,'' as during Garuda-I, the French Adl’A utilised their Mirage-2000 in a somewhat different and more effective way and getting optimum results, especially in the BVR arena. The Adl’A possessed the elaborate BVR experience on the skies over Kosovo and Iraq and consequently refined their tactics. The IAF was surely pleased to “receive” the knowledge albeit losing the BVR engagements initially. However, in Within Visual Range (WVR) combat the IAF overwhelmed the French convincingly throughout sharing an “awesome experience” in the words of French pilots.

The Garuda II exercises were held on the air base 125 "Charles Monier" of Istres and marked the first deployment of Sukhoi-30s in Europe. The French Adl’A deployed some 12 Mirage 2000-5 and Mirage 2000C variants of the squadrons of 2/5 "Island-of-France", 1/2 "Storks" and 3/4 "the Limousin" as combat types plus a KC-135 IFR tanker. A single Mirage 2000N nuclear strike variant was also reportedly involved. The missions carried on and perfected were flights in mixed patrols including missions of interceptions and close combat under the control of a Boeing E-3F ‘Sentry’ Airborne Warning & Control System (AWACS) platform. The BVR armoury of both sides included active-radar homing and infrared “fire & forget” Beyond Visual Range Air-to Air Missiles (BVRAAMS). While the IAF Sukhoi-30s carried the Russian RVV-AE (AA-12 Adder), the Adl’A Mirage 2000s carried the MICA. Interestingly, on June 20, Chief of Staff of the IAF, Air Chief Marshall S P Tyagi on invitation of his French counterpart Richard Wolsztynski witnessed the air exercises minutely on board the Adl’A E-3F ‘Sentry’ AWACS platform.

http://www.indiadefence.com/GarudaII.htm


They can always put caps on missile ranges as they did in copeindia, also, the N001 ( ~80 km) on the flanker could never exploit the full range of the R77 (100km). So the conclusions are obvious, against a Mig29M or K with a zhuk m, where the r77 could be used to full effect, the M2000 would be in trouble. You seem to be under some weird impression that BVR encounters take place at RMax. Incidentally, the MICA has a published RMax of only 60km, so the SU-30 still should have had an advantage, using your logic. BTW, Adl'A M2k5's use the RDY, not the RDY-2.

Point taken, however, this makes it even less effective in A2A (I at least thought it carried the AMRAAM C), sheesh the MiG21 Bison might be too much for the M2000-5 A2A now :biggrin: Obviously, the "demonstrated" ability of the M2000 was against similarly short ranged (radar/weapons range) birds. "Obviously, the "demonstrated" ability of the M2000 was against similarly short ranged (radar/weapons range) birds." ?

Do you have anything to back this up, or do you make such an assumption based solely on the fact that India didn't win the BVR encounters? AFAIK, the ROE's have not been made public- you have some inside information, I suppose?

Never mind, I am done with this thread. Another pointless X vs. Y argument.

Garry
21 Jul 05,, 23:32
Hi Highsea, around two years ago engineers who were working on Flankers for India told me that MiG-29 (their rival and competitor :-) can carry Yahont/Bramos as well as Flanker because the aviation version of Yahont is different from what is used by ships. It is lighter and smaller due to the fact that being launched from aircraft it may have less fuel but keep same distance.... I was told that most of the energy is being used when missile starts up and accelerates....

Air missiles have advantage here. As I understood Air Yahont basically has same engine and warhead but body is being heavily modified.... one of the problem that was solved is missile air intakes were distorting aerodynamics for aircraft...

You were correct that it is balanced with dropable tank on the wing for both Flunker and MiG-29......

You are also correct that no actual shooting has been done of the air borne Yahont but only flights with dynamic models....


ps. Just listened to our recorded talk again... exact phrase IS ABLE TO CARRY.... meaning that they managed to squize dynamic model into it and take off.... but you may be having more updated information that they met problems on later stage.

uss
22 Jul 05,, 00:44
If you read mine, you will see I was correcting your misstatements wrt BVR and A2A capabilities. It doesn't matter which X vs. Y comparison you are making. If your reasons are wrong, your comparison is flawed.

The only correction that you made and were probly right in doing so was the usage of Amraams by the M2000, which i readily admitted!

My premise in this whole discussion was and is that the Mig 29m2 imvho is a better platform performance wise a2a, bvr or wvr. This was based on whatever small research that I have done. My reasoning for this conclusion:

In the WVR dept at least the MiG 29's superiority is pretty obvious as the MiG 29 simply has better performance (better Twr, AOA, turn rates and acceleration obviously aids it wvr). If we are to put stock in exercises (as you implied by using the garuda example), the above premise is further strengthened because the IAF dact exercises seem to wind up in favor of the MiG29 vs the Mirage 2000 ~ 7:1 .
As far as BVR is concerned, it would be silly to compare the SU 30 with a N001 radar to a Mirage 2000-5, it probly would turn out slightly in favor of the Mirage. the Mirage would probly detect earlier (thanks to the better radar range and the SU 30s RCS) and therefore get the first shot. And ya, your article about garuda states nothing different:

1) the mirage 2000s were overwhelmed in WVR (which has been my point all along :rolleyes: )
2) While the Mirage had an upperhand in BVR only initially. - makes one wonder don't it?
3) It tells us no details as to what the ROE were, just that R77s and Micas were simulated. Were there any Caps involved for example?

also the usage of the AWACs might have further changed the dynamic.

OTOH, the picture changes considerably when faced with a more advanced MiG29m/k, which has a far more powerful radar in the zhuk M and a better IRST as well. not to mention reduced rcs. These factors should turn the tables on the Mirage 2000-5. IMVHO, the Mig would detect earlier, track earlier and fire earlier - does this not constitute an advantage in A2A combat??

Now where the heck is my reasoning misplaced?


You seem to be under some weird impression that BVR encounters take place at RMax. Incidentally, the MICA has a published RMax of only 60km, so the SU-30 still should have had an advantage, using your logic. BTW, Adl'A M2k5's use the RDY, not the RDY-2.

Whether or not the bvr encounter takes place at rmax, earlier detection always constitutes a huge advantage often being realized in the first shot. Or do you disagree with this basic reasoning too? By the way the Adla website quotes the Mica around 80km (not as good as the r77 in range, but in this case should be more than enough to take care of the SU 30).

And like I have tried to say before, this is a su 30 with a basic radar, avionics pckg. One does not have to be a genius to figure out what the outcome could have been had it been the MiG 29 M (a more advanced a/c).


Do you have anything to back this up, or do you make such an assumption based solely on the fact that India didn't win the BVR encounters? AFAIK, the ROE's have not been made public- you have some inside information, I suppose?


So now by your own admission, since we don't know the exact ROEs, exact conclusions cannot be deciphered from the results. In other words, such exercises are not the best criteria for judging a/c abilities. Then why in God's name did you bring up Garuda in the first place? you can't have it both ways.
by the way, I based my last statement on the problty that the Mirage has never flown against a MiG or Suk with highly developed radars such as Bars N011 or Zhuk M simulating R77s. If you have something that states otherwise, please let me know.

This has nothing to do with India winning or losing BVR exercises. So don't bring about some bizarre nationalistic twist to this discussion. In reality no actual BVR encounter with the ADA has actually taken place (only simulated stuff), the only real BVR encounter of the IAF that i know of was between PAF f16 and IAF Mig 29, and the MiG had the 2 PAF f16s locked on before deciding not to pursue the matter further. This discussion is not IAF vs ADLA, it is simply an exercise to determine the relative advantages of 2 a/c in A2A and A2G combat. Is this so difficult to understand?


Never mind, I am done with this thread. Another pointless X vs. Y argument.

Your choice.

Kind Regards,
USS.

highsea
22 Jul 05,, 01:26
Hi Garry,

AFAIK, the Yakhont-M has yet to be flight tested. According to NPO Mash, first flight was supposed to be sometime in 2005. But as you say, they may have flown a mockup.

Look at the picture of the mockup from MAKS 2003. As far as the intake, there is a cap on it so we can't see what they have done. You can see it has a smaller booster and additional control surfaces. The launch weight is still a hefty 2500kg. Supposedly range will stay at 300/130 (hi/lo). AFAIK, NPO Mash has never stated that it was being developed for the Fulcrum. It's intended for Flankers, which to me means one missile on a beefed up centerline mount, as you can tell by the picture.

If you mounted this underwing on an MKI, it would extend from canard to tailplane and interfere with movement/airflow on both control surfaces. Look at this picture of a Flanker with a KH-59 test missile underwing:

http://www.softwar.net/rfed.html

The Yakhont-M is 1.5 times as long as the KH-59, with twice the body diameter, and over twice as heavy. I have a very hard time believing that this is a practical underwing munition, whatever the fan sites say.

indianguy4u
22 Jul 05,, 06:07
IG4U,



IAF's Sukhois leave for France to participate in 'Garuda-II'
http://www.deepikaglobal.com/latestnews.asp?ncode=28642

There is more stuff on BR, if you want to check in detail.

In either case, my point was whether, Ks or Mks, they operated in Garuda II with the N001 radar, which is really kinda old and obsolete compared to the Rdy 2. One would expect the Mirage 2000-5 to hold its own against the flanker in this config.

Peace,
USS.
Point taken :) .

indianguy4u
22 Jul 05,, 09:02
Hey uss,
If our old stock su-30 are so much inferior to MKI, then how does these old su-30 k, mk be comparable against su-30 mkk (chinese version).

Garry
22 Jul 05,, 10:03
Hi Garry,

AFAIK, the Yakhont-M has yet to be flight tested. According to NPO Mash, first flight was supposed to be sometime in 2005. But as you say, they may have flown a mockup.

Look at the picture of the mockup from MAKS 2003. As far as the intake, there is a cap on it so we can't see what they have done. You can see it has a smaller booster and additional control surfaces. The launch weight is still a hefty 2500kg. Supposedly range will stay at 300/130 (hi/lo). AFAIK, NPO Mash has never stated that it was being developed for the Fulcrum. It's intended for Flankers, which to me means one missile on a beefed up centerline mount, as you can tell by the picture.

If you mounted this underwing on an MKI, it would extend from canard to tailplane and interfere with movement/airflow on both control surfaces. Look at this picture of a Flanker with a KH-59 test missile underwing:

http://www.softwar.net/rfed.html

The Yakhont-M is 1.5 times as long as the KH-59, with twice the body diameter, and over twice as heavy. I have a very hard time believing that this is a practical underwing munition, whatever the fan sites say.

Your arguments are vey powerful.... My source must have been wrong or missed something. It looks like it is physically impossible to cary this on MiG-29!

Probably somebody was considering this challanging attempt but then gave up.....

I also agree that balancing 2.5ton missile with same weight tanker is impossible on any non-strategic aircraft.

uss
23 Jul 05,, 16:18
Hey uss,
If our old stock su-30 are so much inferior to MKI, then how does these old su-30 k, mk be comparable against su-30 mkk (chinese version).


IG4U,

must warn you my knowledge about chinese flankers is not the best. However, based on what i have read, the chinese SU 30MKKs are able to carry more weaponload than the SU 30K, they have improved N001s (at least the later batches) and ultimately will be replaced by the Zhuk Msf/meh (a v.powerful radar). So a slight advantage will go to the chinese flankers for now. After the upgrade of the Ks (if upgraded to MKI standard), the IAF flankers will be better.

Kind Regards,
USS.

indianguy4u
23 Jul 05,, 21:41
Thanx uss :).

Sameer
24 Jul 05,, 03:35
The Mirage 2000H is beaten hands down by the MiG029A of the IAF in close combat situations. The ratio is 6:1

The BVR ratio aparently stands at 1.25:1 for the Mirage 2000.

Since the MiG-29M2 is a much superior beast and costs much less, the winner is obvious.

uss
27 Jul 05,, 06:49
[QUOTE=Sameer]
The BVR ratio aparently stands at 1.25:1 for the Mirage 2000.
QUOTE]

I hope you are referring to the M2000-5 and not the IAF mirages. Cause you jcouldn't possibly mean that the Mirage 2000 has a better BVR record VS the MiG 29 in the IAF? Or did I miss something? How can this be considering that the Mirage 2000 is not equipped with R77s or anything to match that missile? the Mig 29 obviously has an edge in BVR too.

USS.

Garry
17 Aug 05,, 18:00
Hi Garry,

AFAIK, the Yakhont-M has yet to be flight tested. According to NPO Mash, first flight was supposed to be sometime in 2005. But as you say, they may have flown a mockup.

Look at the picture of the mockup from MAKS 2003. As far as the intake, there is a cap on it so we can't see what they have done. You can see it has a smaller booster and additional control surfaces. The launch weight is still a hefty 2500kg. Supposedly range will stay at 300/130 (hi/lo). AFAIK, NPO Mash has never stated that it was being developed for the Fulcrum. It's intended for Flankers, which to me means one missile on a beefed up centerline mount, as you can tell by the picture.

If you mounted this underwing on an MKI, it would extend from canard to tailplane and interfere with movement/airflow on both control surfaces. Look at this picture of a Flanker with a KH-59 test missile underwing:

http://www.softwar.net/rfed.html

The Yakhont-M is 1.5 times as long as the KH-59, with twice the body diameter, and over twice as heavy. I have a very hard time believing that this is a practical underwing munition, whatever the fan sites say.

Hi Highsea. Today at MAKS (Moscow Air Show) I have seen myself a Yahont-A missile put next to MiG-29K along with other weapons carried by it...... I was told that one is fitted under or two on wings!!! (I don't know how balance problem is solved then). If you see it next to MiG-29 looks quite increadilble but that was what I heard from a company representative.....

While speaking witht my friend from Sukhoi I got his comment that Yahont-A is actually less capable weapon than what it could have been if there was no political pressure to update it for Indian MiG-29K........ He also confirmed that a first shooting test has been done already and with few more the missile is close to be accepted for use....

So. MIG states that MiG-29 will be able to shoot Yakhnot-A and may be updated Brahmos....

ajaybhutani
20 Aug 05,, 12:37
Hi Highsea. Today at MAKS (Moscow Air Show) I have seen myself a Yahont-A missile put next to MiG-29K along with other weapons carried by it...... I was told that one is fitted under or two on wings!!! (I don't know how balance problem is solved then). If you see it next to MiG-29 looks quite increadilble but that was what I heard from a company representative.....

While speaking witht my friend from Sukhoi I got his comment that Yahont-A is actually less capable weapon than what it could have been if there was no political pressure to update it for Indian MiG-29K........ He also confirmed that a first shooting test has been done already and with few more the missile is close to be accepted for use....

So. MIG states that MiG-29 will be able to shoot Yakhnot-A and may be updated Brahmos....


wont the upgraded brahmos too heavy and too long for mig29.

Garry
22 Aug 05,, 14:53
wont the upgraded brahmos too heavy and too long for mig29.

Highsea has proven that it is too big. Argumensts are strong and I am not puting them on doubts. I just stated what I have seen myself..... yahont (which is a predeccessor of Brahmos) put amoung the armory of MiG-29 on Moscow Air Show. And my friend at Sukhoi who confirmed to me that shooting tests were done with Yahont.... Actually it looked quite big next to MiG-29K at exposition. If you look at it then Highsea arguments look even stronger. I have no idea how MiG-29K would be taking off with this mamoth from the deck of a carrier.....

However the fact - Yahont A is was displayed on the ground among other weapons used by MiG-29K

uss
24 Aug 05,, 04:03
Highsea has proven that it is too big. Argumensts are strong and I am not puting them on doubts. I just stated what I have seen myself..... yahont (which is a predeccessor of Brahmos) put amoung the armory of MiG-29 on Moscow Air Show. And my friend at Sukhoi who confirmed to me that shooting tests were done with Yahont.... Actually it looked quite big next to MiG-29K at exposition. If you look at it then Highsea arguments look even stronger. I have no idea how MiG-29K would be taking off with this mamoth from the deck of a carrier.....

However the fact - Yahont A is was displayed on the ground among other weapons used by MiG-29K


Perhaps it will be easier for the MiG29 M or even the MiG 35 (now offered to the IAF for MRCA requiremt) to carry the Brahmos/Yakhont considering that they are land based a/c as opposed to the Mig29k? i'm especially hopeful that the MiG 35 will be able to carry it considering it has TVC and will be just about as light as the K version.

Regards,
USS.

RepublicanGuard
28 Aug 05,, 10:22
The Mirage is 40 years past its time. Id have to admit for its day and until the 4th generation of fighters was released in the late 80's ( F-18E, Mig-29, SU-27 and Family etc. ) proved its worht on the battlefield especially in the hands of Isreali pilots which in my honest opinion, would shoot down any russian american or british pilot with ease.

But nowadays, the mirage is a dead platform. However, for once france shined in the military hardware field because the rest of thier stuff is total ****

uss
31 Aug 05,, 20:47
Highsea has proven that it is too big. Argumensts are strong and I am not puting them on doubts. I just stated what I have seen myself..... yahont (which is a predeccessor of Brahmos) put amoung the armory of MiG-29 on Moscow Air Show. And my friend at Sukhoi who confirmed to me that shooting tests were done with Yahont.... Actually it looked quite big next to MiG-29K at exposition. If you look at it then Highsea arguments look even stronger. I have no idea how MiG-29K would be taking off with this mamoth from the deck of a carrier.....

However the fact - Yahont A is was displayed on the ground among other weapons used by MiG-29K


Here is an awesome piece of news:

The IN MiG 29K will carry the Club 3M 54E cruise missile (single), range ~ 300km. I love this missile which accelerates to supersonic speeds at the v.last moment making defence v.difficult.
or four Kh 31P kryptons ( supersonic, range ~ 110 km).
or 2 switchblades 3m24 e (subsonic, range ~ 225 km)

http://www.ocnus.net/artman/publish/article_19753.shtml

Uhh, kind difficult to see how the mirage 2000 can top this kinda load (although admittedly a Apache/Scalp combo is v.difficult to beat). The MiG 29k (I don't even want to think about the MiG35) seems to be catching up very well with the Mirage 2000-5 A2G as well.


Regards,
USS.

ajaybhutani
03 Sep 05,, 12:41
Here is an awesome piece of news:

The IN MiG 29K will carry the Club 3M 54E cruise missile (single), range ~ 300km. I love this missile which accelerates to supersonic speeds at the v.last moment making defence v.difficult.
or four Kh 31P kryptons ( supersonic, range ~ 110 km).
or 2 switchblades 3m24 e (subsonic, range ~ 225 km)

http://www.ocnus.net/artman/publish/article_19753.shtml

Uhh, kind difficult to see how the mirage 2000 can top this kinda load (although admittedly a Apache/Scalp combo is v.difficult to beat). The MiG 29k (I don't even want to think about the MiG35) seems to be catching up very well with the Mirage 2000-5 A2G as well.


Regards,
USS.

wow.. now that makes it much easier to select Mig29 now . I hope after the MKI experience IAF will leave its interest in M2k and opt for Mig35.

uss
06 Sep 05,, 06:39
wow.. now that makes it much easier to select Mig29 now . I hope after the MKI experience IAF will leave its interest in M2k and opt for Mig35.

And some news reports speculate that the IAF may look at an Israeli Radar if not the Bars 29 (which by itself would be awesome). I'm guessing (and hoping) that this is Israeli radar is none other than the EL 2052 :eek: Yup that would make the MiG a v.difficult contender to beat indeed.

Regards,
USS.

indianguy4u
06 Sep 05,, 06:45
And some news reports speculate that the IAF may look at an Israeli Radar if not the Bars 29 (which by itself would be awesome). I'm guessing (and hoping) that this is Israeli radar is none other than the EL 2052 :eek: Yup that would make the MiG a v.difficult contender to beat indeed.

Regards,
USS.
Amen. JUST DO IT

ajaybhutani
06 Sep 05,, 15:22
And some news reports speculate that the IAF may look at an Israeli Radar if not the Bars 29 (which by itself would be awesome). I'm guessing (and hoping) that this is Israeli radar is none other than the EL 2052 :eek: Yup that would make the MiG a v.difficult contender to beat indeed.

Regards,
USS.
wow.. do u have some link ??

uss
06 Sep 05,, 19:59
wow.. do u have some link ??


Of course you must take this with a pinch of salt (hence the word "speculate" was used):

Magic of the MiG 35
http://www.the-week.com/25sep04/currentevents_article1.htm


MiG officials expect India to ask for Israeli Elta radars, display components from France and weaponry of Russian origin. "We have not frozen the technology specifications," said Fyodorov.

I would give the Bars29 more credibility:
taken from Acig forums, originally posted by "Pit",


Customer to Chose Radar Type for Upgrade of Indian MiG-29

The Indian side will chose independently the type of aircraft radar (BRLS) for upgrade of the MiG-29 for India's air force line units, the general director and general designer of RSK MiG, Aleksey Fedorov, thinks.

He characterized the forthcoming selection by the India side as "complex." A. Fedorov explained that the Indian side is proposing to make the choice from several BRLS variants in the presence of the upgrade of the Indian air force's operational MiG-29 – from the improved "Zhuk-MEh" and a radar based on the "Bars" radar, which is installed on Su-30MKI fighters.

Consultations are under way at the present time with the Indian side on the technical aspect of the upgraded airplane. In forming such a technical aspect, the "Zhuk" BRLS is one of the variants, the head of RSK MiG said.

He based the "Zhuk-MEh" properties for the upgrade of the MiG-29 for India on the fact that this country's air force has experience in using the "Zhuk-Eh" BRLS, with which the operational Indian air force MiG-29 are equipped. Moreover, the "Zhuk-MEh" is a series-produced upgrade platform for the MiG-29SMT.

However, on the other hand, the Indian air force has an even increasing fleet of Su-30MKI fighters with the "Bars" BRLS and India's desire to unify the servicing of operational air force airplanes in part of the MiG-29 and Su-30MKI to be upgraded in the future is understandable, A. Fedorov thinks.

In his opinion, if the "Zhuk-MEh" is already being delivered for export with the MiG-29SMT fighters, then adaptation of the "Bars" to the MiG-29 will require definite financial and material efforts, and also definite time. In any case, the customer's choice will be satisfactory, A. Fedorov is convinced.


Correspondent: Dmitriy Kozlov, Source: 10.02.05, AviaPort.RU


Regards,
uss.

RepublicanGuard
26 Sep 05,, 04:57
Mig-29SMK, no contest.

ajaybhutani
27 Sep 05,, 05:18
Of course you must take this with a pinch of salt (hence the word "speculate" was used):

Magic of the MiG 35
http://www.the-week.com/25sep04/currentevents_article1.htm



I would give the Bars29 more credibility:
taken from Acig forums, originally posted by "Pit",




Regards,
uss.
All this is making me more and more optimistic about LCA. After all LCA's radar aperture is slightly bigger than Mig29. and its RCS much smaller than Mig29. So of course anything india buys for mig29 will go in LCA( or the LCA radar will go in mig29.. which is of course not so much of a probability). LCA will be a deadly monster then.

indianguy4u
27 Sep 05,, 06:17
I heard russians are ready to incorporate the necessary changes to mig35 to satisfy the customer. If we can get the Elta AESA radar from Israel(pic in the LCA thread) will mig corp be ready to do away their radar?

ajaybhutani
27 Sep 05,, 06:30
I heard russians are ready to incorporate the necessary changes to mig35 to satisfy the customer. If we can get the Elta AESA radar from Israel(pic in the LCA thread) will mig corp be ready to do away their radar?
a radar costs a small part of the planes cost. if the call is between the israeli radar or no mig35 russia will not have any problem in integrating the Elta aesa. Unless of course they offer their own aesa.

uss
29 Sep 05,, 04:43
a radar costs a small part of the planes cost. if the call is between the israeli radar or no mig35 russia will not have any problem in integrating the Elta aesa. Unless of course they offer their own aesa.

A miniaturized IRBIS perhaps? whatever happens i don't think we will be seeing an order placed before 2009 - that pretty much ensures that india will have AESA for the MRCA (it better! :mad: ).

If they are in a hurry (which the bloody jackass politicians never are :mad: :mad: ), they could go for the MiG 35 with upgradation at proper intervals (as in the case of the Su 30MKI). Right now, i don't see why they couldn't get their hands on a MiG 35mki (sharing common avionics with su 30 MKI/LCA such as tarang, bars 29, mission computer etc or with IN Shar/MiG29k including el 2032, topsight e). later on they can always upgrade to whichever option is easily available: israeli (el 2052) or russian (irbis). the el 2032 (which the IN Shars are getting) are is pretty powerful by the way :) alon with derbys the Shar (which is already a great dog fighter will become pretty awesome esp. in the IOR)
http://www.iai.co.il/Default.aspx?docID=26591&FolderID=26340&lang=en&res=0&pos=0.

Regards,
USS.

tphuang
29 Sep 05,, 04:53
a radar costs a small part of the planes cost. if the call is between the israeli radar or no mig35 russia will not have any problem in integrating the Elta aesa. Unless of course they offer their own aesa.
the AESA radars cost an arm and a leg, but they are worth it.

ajaybhutani
29 Sep 05,, 05:26
A miniaturized IRBIS perhaps? whatever happens i don't think we will be seeing an order placed before 2009 - that pretty much ensures that india will have AESA for the MRCA (it better! :mad: ).

If they are in a hurry (which the bloody jackass politicians never are :mad: :mad: ), they could go for the MiG 35 with upgradation at proper intervals (as in the case of the Su 30MKI). Right now, i don't see why they couldn't get their hands on a MiG 35mki (sharing common avionics with su 30 MKI/LCA such as tarang, bars 29, mission computer etc or with IN Shar/MiG29k including el 2032, topsight e). later on they can always upgrade to whichever option is easily available: israeli (el 2052) or russian (irbis). the el 2032 (which the IN Shars are getting) are is pretty powerful by the way :) alon with derbys the Shar (which is already a great dog fighter will become pretty awesome esp. in the IOR)
http://www.iai.co.il/Default.aspx?docID=26591&FolderID=26340&lang=en&res=0&pos=0.

Regards,
USS.
though to be frank i dont see a reason to order MRCA in 2009. Bec by then LCa will be ready.

indianguy4u
29 Sep 05,, 08:11
though to be frank i dont see a reason to order MRCA in 2009. Bec by then LCa will be ready.
Same here. But i think buying mig35 would be much better than m2k-5, as lca is simmilar.

ajaybhutani
29 Sep 05,, 10:38
Same here. But i think buying mig35 would be much better than m2k-5, as lca is simmilar.
i'll place LCA as better than M2K rite now. Its of course between mig35 and LCA. and i m just wishing that LCa wins.

indianguy4u
29 Sep 05,, 12:12
i'll place LCA as better than M2K rite now. Its of course between mig35 and LCA. and i m just wishing that LCa wins.
Some say that LCA will be online not b4 2010-12, so we are getting MRCA as stop gap. If this is the thinking i dont think LCA is in any danger. It will get about 300 orders for sure (replacing all those mig 21s).

indianguy4u
29 Sep 05,, 12:16
A miniaturized IRBIS perhaps? whatever happens i don't think we will be seeing an order placed before 2009 - that pretty much ensures that india will have AESA for the MRCA (it better! :mad: ).

If they are in a hurry (which the bloody jackass politicians never are :mad: :mad: ), they could go for the MiG 35 with upgradation at proper intervals (as in the case of the Su 30MKI). Right now, i don't see why they couldn't get their hands on a MiG 35mki (sharing common avionics with su 30 MKI/LCA such as tarang, bars 29, mission computer etc or with IN Shar/MiG29k including el 2032, topsight e). later on they can always upgrade to whichever option is easily available: israeli (el 2052) or russian (irbis). the el 2032 (which the IN Shars are getting) are is pretty powerful by the way :) alon with derbys the Shar (which is already a great dog fighter will become pretty awesome esp. in the IOR)
http://www.iai.co.il/Default.aspx?docID=26591&FolderID=26340&lang=en&res=0&pos=0.

Regards,
USS.
uss,
Ur suggestion would be a big boost for local defence industry. It will also give us confindence in to building medium/heavy class planes on our own in future. The only thing remaining should be a JV with an european engine mfg.

Sameer
29 Sep 05,, 15:01
The MKI will get the Irbis post 2010.

sukhoi
04 Oct 06,, 14:50
Excattly The MKIs will be Improved better. TheMKI also can be upgraded into more Deadly by fitting AESA radar to it.The aircraft will see operational improvements with systems and new EW and Radar equipment that will be in place.The Irbis is a co-development between LRDE of India and Tikhomirov NIIP of Russia at a cost of US$160 million.With the Russians having started work on AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Arrays) radar systems, in future preferably an AESA variant should equip our Sukhoi-30MKIs.

Garry
24 Apr 07,, 07:35
Hi Highsea, around two years ago engineers who were working on Flankers for India told me that MiG-29 (their rival and competitor :-) can carry Yahont/Bramos as well as Flanker because the aviation version of Yahont is different from what is used by ships. It is lighter and smaller due to the fact that being launched from aircraft it may have less fuel but keep same distance.... I was told that most of the energy is being used when missile starts up and accelerates....

Air missiles have advantage here. As I understood Air Yahont basically has same engine and warhead but body is being heavily modified.... one of the problem that was solved is missile air intakes were distorting aerodynamics for aircraft...

You were correct that it is balanced with dropable tank on the wing for both Flunker and MiG-29......

You are also correct that no actual shooting has been done of the air borne Yahont but only flights with dynamic models....


ps. Just listened to our recorded talk again... exact phrase IS ABLE TO CARRY.... meaning that they managed to squize dynamic model into it and take off.... but you may be having more updated information that they met problems on later stage.

Hi Highsea! Yesterday had a chat with good old friend who worked in Sukhoi some time back. He reconfirmed to me that prototype MIG-29K CAN CARRY TWO YAHONT and it did carry Yahont DYNAMIC MODELS assuming salvo of the two missiles at a time.... Su-33 carried THREE dynamic models - one under belly and two under wings. Su-33 was not tested taking off with the Yahont models from aircraft but from land

He does not know if actual shooting was done since he left Sukhoi.... However he remembers shooting was done from Tu-142. Then the funds went out and X-61 Yahont has not yet passed all required test for approval to service.... So it is NOT IN SERVICE OF RAF

tphuang
25 Apr 07,, 02:15
Hi Highsea! Yesterday had a chat with good old friend who worked in Sukhoi some time back. He reconfirmed to me that prototype MIG-29K CAN CARRY TWO YAHONT and it did carry Yahont DYNAMIC MODELS assuming salvo of the two missiles at a time.... Su-33 carried THREE dynamic models - one under belly and two under wings. Su-33 was not tested taking off with the Yahont models from aircraft but from land

He does not know if actual shooting was done since he left Sukhoi.... However he remembers shooting was done from Tu-142. Then the funds went out and X-61 Yahont has not yet passed all required test for approval to service.... So it is NOT IN SERVICE OF RAF

if su-33 carries 3 yakhont, it would not even be able to take off from kutznetsov.

Garry
25 Apr 07,, 09:11
if su-33 carries 3 yakhont, it would not even be able to take off from kutznetsov.

Hi tphuang! It did take off from ground strip with dynamic models 3 years ago.... my friend does not know what happened since then. The aircraft which was used for testing systems of MiG-29K was also taking off with two dynamic models of yahonts from the ground strip 3 years back.

Now when Kuznetsov is back they may test it from carrier...... but they need to finish Yahont first.

Yahont is not approved for service due to lack of test launches from air.... there were few test launches from Tu-142 but as I was explained not every test launch assumes tageting, homing and hitting targets.

It is possible that now when first MiG-29K are going through tests they would resume testing of Yahont/Brahmos on that platform..... difference between them are in guidance and programmed trajectories.

tphuang
25 Apr 07,, 23:32
Hi tphuang! It did take off from ground strip with dynamic models 3 years ago.... my friend does not know what happened since then. The aircraft which was used for testing systems of MiG-29K was also taking off with two dynamic models of yahonts from the ground strip 3 years back.

Now when Kuznetsov is back they may test it from carrier...... but they need to finish Yahont first.

Yahont is not approved for service due to lack of test launches from air.... there were few test launches from Tu-142 but as I was explained not every test launch assumes tageting, homing and hitting targets.

It is possible that now when first MiG-29K are going through tests they would resume testing of Yahont/Brahmos on that platform..... difference between them are in guidance and programmed trajectories.
what I'm saying is that it's pointless to say what it can take off from a normal takeoff when su-33 and mig-29k are limited by STOBAR.

Garry
26 Apr 07,, 08:01
what I'm saying is that it's pointless to say what it can take off from a normal takeoff when su-33 and mig-29k are limited by STOBAR.

Hei, none of us can confidently calculate what weight a Su-33 can takeoff at STOBAR and what it can not.... we simply don't have data on that

uss
16 May 07,, 17:46
Garry,

Thanks thats some news :eek: At the least it could mean that the latest MiG 29 landbased versions such as the 35 could carry a Brahmos; would make it a very interesting candidate for the MRCA competition. IIRC, they are already designed to carry the airlaunched Kloob missile ('Kalibre' i think its called).

Can you get any information on the RCS reduction measures done on the newer MiG 29ks and 35s or even the SMTs?
Thanks.

Regards,
USS.

Orange_Julius
29 May 07,, 20:32
perhaps some of our Indian friends here can further elaborate on the comparison between the MiG-29 and the Mirage 2000 since they have both types in their air force. :)

hmmmm... however, if i will be given the choice, i would prefer the Su-30MK over the MiG-29 for two reasons- longer endurance and higher weapons payload. ;)