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  • MiG29K/M2 Vs Mirage 2000-5mk2

    Hello All,

    Political considerations apart, which fighter should the InAF choose? After some thought, I came to the conclusion that the MiGs would have a better chance at A2A (better radar range and longer range AAMs, TVC, HMS), while the Mirages have a better chance at A2G (Scalp E + 9 hardpoints).

    Then again, I seem to remember reading that the Mirages also have a new HMS and the MiG29Ks have a much improved A2G ability - (carries the Switchblade a2g/anti ship missile - 130km range among a variety of other a2g weapons including the possibility of western weapons!).

    One distinct advantage for the MiG : cheaper.

    All educated opinions are welcome.

    Regards,
    USS.

  • #2
    actually the advantage with the russian missiles radars israeli ECMs can be considered as gone from the Mig29 as indians would make the either purchase into a MKIzed version.
    The advantage with the Mig29 is of course the initial cost of the machines brought straight away ( a 20-30 odd ones) . for the ones produced in india it might well be in favour of either. The M2Ks can be started faster will invovle lesser investment for maintenance infra and also are much cheaper to maintain and fly. Further adding the fact that M2K -5 is flying around in differen AFs. while Mig29M2 isnt more of a paper design.

    The Mig29 might just not be cheaper for us. for its a devil to maintain. (Rd33K 's performance is still unknown. ).
    Though even the F16 has become a strong contender with the developments in the last one month. The IAF is looking at the Plane now. The Americans can offer better prices and better concessions( but of course only i they want to which is still doubtful. ). The AI deail with Boeing for 6 B$ is a sign that we might just buy american this time. Though whats unclear is incentives are the americans offering.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by ajaybhutani
      actually the advantage with the russian missiles radars israeli ECMs can be considered as gone from the Mig29 as indians would make the either purchase into a MKIzed version.
      Man, that should reduce the price of the M2K as well (don't use thier radar, ecm etc)

      The advantage with the Mig29 is of course the initial cost of the machines brought straight away ( a 20-30 odd ones) . for the ones produced in india it might well be in favour of either.
      Perhaps, the french are known for being v. pricey. Scorpene is a good example. Heck the Mirage is probably amongst the most expensive planes in the IAF inventory. The new MiG 29K due to arrive in 2007 is estimtd at $ 32 m a piece. If we mass produce something like this, the cost would probably come down to $25m per plane. On the other hand the souped up M2K-5/mk2 is estimated at $ 40-45m per plane. Even with TOT and indegineous production, how much lower will it come to? Here is a site Figther prices - http://www.aeronautics.ru/img/img007/fighter_prices.gif. Heck from some estimates, it cost Qatar $1.2bn for it's complete 12 Mirage 2000-5 deal with france (including weapons i believe)! Now that would be expensive.

      The M2Ks can be started faster will invovle lesser investment for maintenance infra and also are much cheaper to maintain and fly. .
      Agreed, this is probably one of the biggest advantages of the Mirage. But then, it would help in a big way to have a prodctn facility for MiG29s when we have so many of them and the navy ordering even more. Also, this should make maintenance a little easier since we are mass producing them. Tech support was a pain with the Russians earlier, but now we produce it with TOT in India, where is the question of tech support etc.

      Further adding the fact that M2K -5 is flying around in differen AFswhile Mig29M2 isnt more of a paper design.
      Don't let them fool you, the M2 is a lot more than the SU 30 was (when offered to India) and look at the MKI now. Also please check this article out by Janes' George Mader (he compares the new MiGs v.favorably with blk 40 f16Ds) http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_293.shtml. An Austrian General even conceded this in comparison to the E2000, which they went ahead and bought for 60m euro a pop.

      The Mig29 might just not be cheaper for us. for its a devil to maintain. (Rd33K 's performance is still unknown. ).
      Then again, we will be locally producing the MiG as well and this should make maintenance easier. Again, refer to article above - the new engines are supposed to be v.good. Plus you have TVC involved.

      Though even the F16 has become a strong contender with the developments in the last one month. The IAF is looking at the Plane now. The Americans can offer better prices and better concessions( but of course only i they want to which is still doubtful. ). The AI deail with Boeing for 6 B$ is a sign that we might just buy american this time. Though whats unclear is incentives are the americans offering.

      I would not be surprised if they offered us an awesome version of the f16 (aesa and all), but the indians would seriously hesitate to take it up considering the Pakistanis have the same plane (even if a little older version) and that the chinese are bound to get their hands on them.

      Instead, they may want to think of an MKIzed F18 (a cross between the original and Super Hornet - new engines, smaller aircraft + aesa would make it one hot a/c, it would not be that much bigger than the MiG29s). I wonder if this would be a good idea.. hmm another one for the experts to ponder over (highsea, M2Sniper where are you?) perhaps i should start a new thread :)

      Ajay, this is all very well, but i'm still waiting for your opinion on which plane you consider to be a better a/c performance wise, A2A and A@G. :)

      Regards,
      USS.
      Last edited by uss; 29 Apr 05,, 02:34.

      Comment


      • #4
        Further advantage of MiG29M2 over Mirage 2000:

        How much more can the Mirage evolve? Dassault seems to want to move away from this a/c and go more towards Rafale. Plus, the french upgrade packages cost a good chunk of the good stuff!

        On the other hand, the MiG29M2 is set to evolve (esp. in indian hands) just like the SU 30. They are already talking of slaving the Brahmos to the MiG. Who knows, in some time they may start adding composites in a big way to reduce the RCS (as planned for the SU 30).

        The whole problem with the Mirage is that it is too darned expensive for the stuff that it provides. I'm increasingly thinking the MiG29M2MKI is the way to go. Equal or more bang for less buck!

        Just my two bits.

        REgards,
        USS.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by uss
          ...They are already talking of slaving the Brahmos to the MiG.
          Who's "they"? Do you have a link?

          Do you know how big a Brahmos is? It's 8 meters long and weighs 6000 lbs. The centerline hardpoint on the MiG-29 can handle about 3000 lbs. max., even if you could squeeze the missile between the engines, (which you can't), you would break the AC trying to take off with a 3 ton missile on the center station.

          The MiG-29 is 17 meters long, the SU-30 is 22 meters, and it's very questionable if you can shrink the Brahmos to the point where even the Flanker can handle one. There is no way you are going to hang it on a Fulcrum.
          "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by ajaybhutani
            The M2Ks can be started faster will invovle lesser investment for maintenance

            offering.
            and why do you say that?


            the Brahmos will fit on the Flanker for sure, it can handle 8,000 lbs. of ordnance

            good links uss, thanks
            for MOTHER MOLDOVA

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Dima
              the Brahmos will fit on the Flanker for sure, it can handle 8,000 lbs. of ordnance
              Great, all you have to do is cut it up into 6 pieces...

              Notice I was talking about the Fulcrum, not the Flanker. I only mentioned the Flanker because the last news I heard from India concerning shrinking the Brahmos for the Flanker was that they had all but given up on the idea. But since you have it all figured out, why don't you give them a call and let them know it's no problem?
              Last edited by highsea; 29 Apr 05,, 04:25.
              "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by highsea
                Who's "they"? Do you have a link?

                Do you know how big a Brahmos is? It's 8 meters long and weighs 6000 lbs. The centerline hardpoint on the MiG-29 can handle about 3000 lbs. max., even if you could squeeze the missile between the engines, (which you can't), you would break the AC trying to take off with a 3 ton missile on the center station.

                The MiG-29 is 17 meters long, the SU-30 is 22 meters, and it's very questionable if you can shrink the Brahmos to the point where even the Flanker can handle one. There is no way you are going to hang it on a Fulcrum.

                Hello Highsea,

                I will try to find the (some russian) link for a pic where the brahmos (actually the Yahkont PJ10?) was placed under the wing area of a MiG29. This is not going to be easy hence the word "them" :). Although I have not found any confirmed sources for this information, the image is there and it is said that the program is still in the feasibilty study level. My point is, in the future this could very well be a possibility, esp. if they introduce more composites to the MiG and thereby reduce its weight.

                The Flanker (SU30 MKI) is expected and shown on models to carry 3 brahmos http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/events.../Brahmos06.jpg.
                http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_418.shtml

                OK here is a pic of a MIG29 with the Yakhont/brahmos
                grr, how do i post an image? i'm trying but it does not seem to work. Ok, even though I can't post an image, here is a link that the Yakhont M (airl launched) missile, which is similar to the brahmos is speculated to be hooked up to a MiG 29: http://www.nti.org/db/nisprofs/russi...ral/expmsl.htm.
                The air-launched version, known as the Yakhont-M, is still in the design stage and is expected to be deployed on Mig-29, Su-27, Su-30 and Su-32 fighters.
                So, even though they may not have already done it, perhaps in the future one may see a MiG29 carry a brahmos or Yakhont type missile. They probably will reduce it's weight by some 500kgs. Admittedly it is expected that the M2k 2000-5 will carry the Scalp EG: http://www.mbda.net/escalp.html.

                Regards,
                USS.

                Comment


                • #9
                  USS- I have read those articles, and I have seen the models. If you look at the model on the stand, and compare it to an SU-30 on the ground, you can't help but notice that the center mount would completely block the nose gear. It's nothing but speculation, and as I mentioned, the latest news is not promising wrt putting the Brahmos/Yakhont on a diet, as the range is reduced to around 120km, which is not considered useful.

                  You cannot hang a 6000 or even a 5000 pound missile on a MiG-29 wing (or the SU-30, for that matter). You would need one on each wing to balance, and you would be way over MTOW. Likewise you cannot hang three of them on a Flanker. The most you can get is one on a center point, which would have to be moved back and severly beefed up. If you tried to carry them on the wings, you would have to launch them together, and that is not practical. And 15,000-18,000 pounds of missiles puts you way over MTOW anyway.

                  There is a physical limit to how much weight you can put on a hardpoint without breaking it, even in the mildest of manouvers like simply taking off. The combat/fuel load is spread out over the airframe for a reason. If you start to try to put that kind of weight on a wing point, you will get a very fast and expensive lesson in wing fatigue.

                  Fighter planes are not bombers, and models mean nothing. If India gets the TU-22's, then she will have a decent platform to develop an air launched version of the Brahmos. Until that time, it's just fantasy.
                  Last edited by highsea; 29 Apr 05,, 05:22.
                  "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by highsea
                    USS- I have read those articles, and I have seen the models. If you look at the model on the stand, and compare it to an SU-30 on the ground, you can't help but notice that the center mount would completely block the nose gear. It's nothing but speculation, and as I mentioned, the latest news is not promising wrt putting the Brahmos/Yakhont on a diet, as the range is reduced to around 120km, which is not considered useful.

                    You cannot hang a 6000 or even a 5000 pound missile on a MiG-29 wing (or the SU-30, for that matter). You would need one on each wing to balance, and you would be way over MTOW. Likewise you cannot hang three of them on a Flanker. The most you can get is one on a center point, which would have to be moved back and severly beefed up. If you tried to carry them on the wings, you would have to launch them together, and that is not practical. And 15,000-18,000 pounds of missiles puts you way over MTOW anyway.

                    There is a physical limit to how much weight you can put on a hardpoint without breaking it, even in the mildest of manouvers like simply taking off. The combat/fuel load is spread out over the airframe for a reason. If you start to try to put that kind of weight on a wing point, you will get a very fast and expensive lesson in wing fatigue.

                    Fighter planes are not bombers, and models mean nothing. If India gets the TU-22's, then she will have a decent platform to develop an air launched version of the Brahmos. Until that time, it's just fantasy.
                    Hi Highsea,

                    Hmm, I hope you are wrong :) , but am afraid you are right Let us see how it pans out. I had similar doubts but tend to be a little optimistic (can't blame me - recent media reports say that the SU30 will start carrying the brahmos by 2007) . May be the MiG29 can carry just one down the middle. Heck, if not the brahmos, perhaps it can carry the KH 59M at least. This has range comparable to Scalp EG. Although, I don't know how it fares when it comes to excellent jammers.

                    Regards,
                    USS.
                    Last edited by uss; 29 Apr 05,, 05:37.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by uss
                      Man, that should reduce the price of the M2K as well (don't use thier radar, ecm etc)
                      The best available will be used.(i hope so). The cost for even the french radars etc will not be much when produced in india. India will churn out most of the plane (except the ones brought straight away. But as i said before the M2K as a lot much cheaper to maintain than Mig29( as far as the IAFs experience is concerned. They are much cheaper to fly and much more convenient to handle. As far as avionics is concerned only the best shud go in and as it all will be made in india the high cost factor with french dsnt come into picture. (except for the first few).

                      Perhaps, the french are known for being v. pricey. Scorpene is a good example. Heck the Mirage is probably amongst the most expensive planes in the IAF inventory.
                      Their maintenance costs is quite less.
                      The new MiG 29K due to arrive in 2007 is estimtd at $ 32 m a piece. If we mass produce something like this, the cost would probably come down to $25m per plane.
                      The problem is time needed to get the plane ready. And we dont have time at all. We need something fast and soon.
                      On the other hand the souped up M2K-5/mk2 is estimated at $ 40-45m per plane.
                      Thats the cost of french factory roll out. the indian ones will be much cheap after all we are making MKI in 30 mn or lower. LCA in 21 mn M2k wil also cost us less to produce.
                      Even with TOT and indegineous production, how much lower will it come to? Here is a site Figther prices - http://www.aeronautics.ru/img/img007/fighter_prices.gif. Heck from some estimates, it cost Qatar $1.2bn for it's complete 12 Mirage 2000-5 deal with france (including weapons i believe)! Now that would be expensive.
                      The maintenance infra is there . The repair experience and handling experience is there. The machine uptime is much better than Mig29.
                      We wont need the weapons if we dont want them . We can always use russian . Though MICA etc will definitely be brought and also used with MKI and others. That shudnt be included in the price tag in case of india( as india is gonna buy them anyway if they are better than russian offerings for otehr ). In fact if we remove the costs of weapons and the spares(which will be produced in india) i dont really think the cost is so much( as usually the whole package is double the cost of the plane.).


                      Agreed, this is probably one of the biggest advantages of the Mirage. But then, it would help in a big way to have a prodctn facility for MiG29s when we have so many of them and the navy ordering even more.
                      IF WE MAKE THE PROCUTION FACILITY. as the cost of production facility will be negiligible for M2K while a lot more for Mig29 not the mention the fact that we are even short of time too.


                      The naval order is of just 16 rite now(with option for more.). and they were forced to do that.
                      The ADS might not see teh same plane but Rafale/F18 superhornet. I think it will be better to even put the LCA instead of Mig29. As it wil do a better job than mig29 in most parameters.
                      Also, this should make maintenance a little easier since we are mass producing them.
                      That wont realy make the Mig29 more easy to handle. Cheaper to fly(per hour of flight). and easier to maintain.As the russian systems are known to be tradiditonally be more optimized for performance at the expense of service life(for instance the engines.).

                      Tech support was a pain with the Russians earlier, but now we produce it with TOT in India, where is the question of tech support etc.
                      That wont change the tech. What matters is if RD33 version offered radars etc really offer so much service life or not. We know that russians had to work a lot toget MKI parts near to the service life specs they mentioned in the MKI deal. and in some case its not even up to the mark yet. MKI deal was a different thing altogether . We wanted a better plane and were ready to invest time as they were gonna go into newer squadrons.. But This purchase isnt the same. this is to fill in the decreasing numbers.the time priority is much much more. And utmost performance can be compromised to some extent for getting the planes fast.

                      Don't let them fool you, the M2 is a lot more than the SU 30 was (when offered to India) and look at the MKI now. Also please check this article out by Janes' George Mader (he compares the new MiGs v.favorably with blk 40 f16Ds) http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_293.shtml. An Austrian General even conceded this in comparison to the E2000, which they went ahead and bought for 60m euro a pop.
                      The point to note is that we are even offered the F16 Blk 50/60/70. BTw how does M2K-5 compare to F16 Blk 50??

                      Then again, we will be locally producing the MiG as well and this should make maintenance easier. Again, refer to article above - the new engines are supposed to be v.good. Plus you have TVC involved.
                      We will be putting in the TVC in our LCA when kaveri is ready. in MKi we have it. Do we really need it in these planes. ??Is it really needed in the war doctrine. ??
                      The locally produced Mig wont change the service life of engines radar etc. ( a lot of effort will be done by india increasing but again taht will take money and time). The RD33 must have improved considerably . But is it up to the mark.??We still dont know.India knows that it cannot rely on the figures given by russians in the specs on service life.



                      I would not be surprised if they offered us an awesome version of the f16 (aesa and all), but the indians would seriously hesitate to take it up considering the Pakistanis have the same plane (even if a little older version) and that the chinese are bound to get their hands on them.
                      The point to note is that This will give us all the info about what all pakistan can feild in. And since our versions will be better than the paksitani ones( and surely the chineese knowledge as its always difficult to imitate it all ) we wont face a problem in bringing down their F16. But with Mig29 i doubt if we can say the Mig29 has an edge. Teh M2k gets an thought due to its excellent maintenance record as the plane is useful only when its avaiable to fly and M2K is hell better than Mig29 in this regard.

                      The bigger point to consider is that ToT with americans will give us a lot of better tech which will go in LCA MKI and upgrades. while the french and russians cannot offer the tech to such extent. (though again it all depends on what americans are ready to offer).

                      Instead, they may want to think of an MKIzed F18 (a cross between the original and Super Hornet - new engines, smaller aircraft + aesa would make it one hot a/c, it would not be that much bigger than the MiG29s). I wonder if this would be a good idea.. hmm another one for the experts to ponder over (highsea, M2Sniper where are you?) perhaps i should start a new thread :)
                      The superhornet is hell good for Naval operations. Its RCS is pretty small(less than/comparable to F16 latest ) and the radar range comparable to that of MKI. I think it will offer much less RCS than Mig29 ,much better radar and avionics than Mig29. And might even help up have a go thru at the american weapons too.
                      Add to the fact that it shud give much more uptime.If we can get it even at double the cost of Mig29. Its worth it. Add to the fact that boing might be interested in outsourcing parts of F18 etc to india considering its increased interest in outsourcing work for civilian planes. If we can clinch a deal with some meat for out companies in the form of orders and cross dependence , Its a hell good of a plane.
                      Further out here i would like to mention one of the arguments put froth in BR by one of the guys for indias american purchases. The day chineese get a chance to buy from the west they will buy it knowing that in a few years the machines will not be supplied with spares . We can learn from the western systems and who else except the americans can offer the best tech .

                      Ajay, this is all very well, but i'm still waiting for your opinion on which plane you consider to be a better a/c performance wise, A2A and A@G. :)

                      Regards,
                      USS.
                      For perforance wise(putting politics and spare bans from americans out of picture). my vote is on
                      1. F16 latest. or F18 whatever suits us. for the doctrine.
                      2. M2K
                      3. the LCA
                      4. Mig29.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ajaybhutani
                        The best available will be used.(i hope so). The cost for even the french radars etc will not be much when produced in india. India will churn out most of the plane (except the ones brought straight away. But as i said before the M2K as a lot much cheaper to maintain than Mig29( as far as the IAFs experience is concerned. They are much cheaper to fly and much more convenient to handle. As far as avionics is concerned only the best shud go in and as it all will be made in india the high cost factor with french dsnt come into picture. (except for the first few).


                        Their maintenance costs is quite less.

                        The problem is time needed to get the plane ready. And we dont have time at all. We need something fast and soon.

                        Thats the cost of french factory roll out. the indian ones will be much cheap after all we are making MKI in 30 mn or lower. LCA in 21 mn M2k wil also cost us less to produce.

                        The maintenance infra is there . The repair experience and handling experience is there. The machine uptime is much better than Mig29.
                        We wont need the weapons if we dont want them . We can always use russian . Though MICA etc will definitely be brought and also used with MKI and others. That shudnt be included in the price tag in case of india( as india is gonna buy them anyway if they are better than russian offerings for otehr ). In fact if we remove the costs of weapons and the spares(which will be produced in india) i dont really think the cost is so much( as usually the whole package is double the cost of the plane.).



                        IF WE MAKE THE PROCUTION FACILITY. as the cost of production facility will be negiligible for M2K while a lot more for Mig29 not the mention the fact that we are even short of time too.


                        The naval order is of just 16 rite now(with option for more.). and they were forced to do that.
                        The ADS might not see teh same plane but Rafale/F18 superhornet. I think it will be better to even put the LCA instead of Mig29. As it wil do a better job than mig29 in most parameters.

                        That wont realy make the Mig29 more easy to handle. Cheaper to fly(per hour of flight). and easier to maintain.As the russian systems are known to be tradiditonally be more optimized for performance at the expense of service life(for instance the engines.).


                        That wont change the tech. What matters is if RD33 version offered radars etc really offer so much service life or not. We know that russians had to work a lot toget MKI parts near to the service life specs they mentioned in the MKI deal. and in some case its not even up to the mark yet. MKI deal was a different thing altogether . We wanted a better plane and were ready to invest time as they were gonna go into newer squadrons.. But This purchase isnt the same. this is to fill in the decreasing numbers.the time priority is much much more. And utmost performance can be compromised to some extent for getting the planes fast.


                        The point to note is that we are even offered the F16 Blk 50/60/70. BTw how does M2K-5 compare to F16 Blk 50??


                        We will be putting in the TVC in our LCA when kaveri is ready. in MKi we have it. Do we really need it in these planes. ??Is it really needed in the war doctrine. ??
                        The locally produced Mig wont change the service life of engines radar etc. ( a lot of effort will be done by india increasing but again taht will take money and time). The RD33 must have improved considerably . But is it up to the mark.??We still dont know.India knows that it cannot rely on the figures given by russians in the specs on service life.




                        The point to note is that This will give us all the info about what all pakistan can feild in. And since our versions will be better than the paksitani ones( and surely the chineese knowledge as its always difficult to imitate it all ) we wont face a problem in bringing down their F16. But with Mig29 i doubt if we can say the Mig29 has an edge. Teh M2k gets an thought due to its excellent maintenance record as the plane is useful only when its avaiable to fly and M2K is hell better than Mig29 in this regard.

                        The bigger point to consider is that ToT with americans will give us a lot of better tech which will go in LCA MKI and upgrades. while the french and russians cannot offer the tech to such extent. (though again it all depends on what americans are ready to offer).


                        The superhornet is hell good for Naval operations. Its RCS is pretty small(less than/comparable to F16 latest ) and the radar range comparable to that of MKI. I think it will offer much less RCS than Mig29 ,much better radar and avionics than Mig29. And might even help up have a go thru at the american weapons too.
                        Add to the fact that it shud give much more uptime.If we can get it even at double the cost of Mig29. Its worth it. Add to the fact that boing might be interested in outsourcing parts of F18 etc to india considering its increased interest in outsourcing work for civilian planes. If we can clinch a deal with some meat for out companies in the form of orders and cross dependence , Its a hell good of a plane.
                        Further out here i would like to mention one of the arguments put froth in BR by one of the guys for indias american purchases. The day chineese get a chance to buy from the west they will buy it knowing that in a few years the machines will not be supplied with spares . We can learn from the western systems and who else except the americans can offer the best tech .


                        For perforance wise(putting politics and spare bans from americans out of picture). my vote is on
                        1. F16 latest. or F18 whatever suits us. for the doctrine.
                        2. M2K
                        3. the LCA
                        4. Mig29.
                        hello Ajay,

                        I do have a suspicious feeling that the MiG29M2 is highly underrated. They could do wonders with this plane just like the big Suk in Indian hands. They may consider the EL 2052 (AESA radar possible for the mig29 upg program by the way) :) . This would make the plane a beast to reckon with. The EL 2052 just went into flight testing a few days ago.

                        However, I do believe you are right in putting the Mirage on top of the MRCA req. list because of its strong points (such as bringing it upto operational status asap). My big gripe with the Mirage is :
                        Expensive compared to the MiG29M2
                        I'm not so sure about it's a2a capacity vis a vis the SUk30mki or the MiG29M2, both of which have hms, TVC, longer ranged aams, and equally or more powerful radars.
                        I'm not too impressed by the Rdy 2 radar (now if they give us the Rafale RBE2, it might make me think a little differently ;) )

                        If they do infact go with the M2K, I hope it is with the EL 2052 :).

                        I will try to find some links regarding this possibility soon. Flight INtl had an article on the EL 2052 being designed for the Mirage 2k and the Su 30. If they could get it on the Mirage (a smaller plane) why not the Mig29M2. Heck, a Mig29 fan can at least hope :) http://www.flightinternational.com/FALANDING_194211.htm

                        Politically, I believe they will go for the F16/18 deal, esp. if they sign the exhorbitant Scorpene deal and get the Americans to give them an aesa. This way the French are happy, the Russians already have a whole list of indian orders and diversification of purchases is achieved. One BIG advantage of going with the U.S. - our tech is unlikely to find its way into the hands of the Pakistanis and esp. the Chinese. On the other hand, this is likely in case of France, Israel and Russia, which have shown great interest in supplying China with latest tech.

                        Regards,
                        USS.

                        Regards,
                        USS.
                        Last edited by uss; 29 Apr 05,, 23:15.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by uss
                          hello Ajay,

                          I do have a suspicious feeling that the MiG29M2 is highly underrated. They could do wonders with this plane just like the big Suk in Indian hands. They may consider the EL 2052 (AESA radar possible for the mig29 upg program by the way) :) . This would make the plane a beast to reckon with. The EL 2052 just went into flight testing a few days ago.
                          Rating is surely affected by bad mainenance results of Mig29s in india.
                          Though rite now the matter is more of timely deliveries.the point is is Mig29M2 complete( i dont think the TVC is tested and certified. BARs29 isnt ready. and so will be many other components). The time frame for getting the Mig29 kills the possibility of getting it in spite of it being a possiblity that it can be a better aircraft or not. IAF todays wants surely of delivery. Cost is not the issue as long as it is under control and the increased cost will be compromised with the reduced mainenance and flight costs.
                          Indians have already signed a contract for upgrading their Mig29(am i rite??)..So i guess in a few days it will be claer to india wether the Mig29M can be induced in due time or not.
                          About teh Radar i m sorry m unaware of the status of EL2052. Can u qyute me for it.).


                          However, I do believe you are right in putting the Mirage on top of the MRCA req. list because of its strong points (such as bringing it upto operational status asap). My big gripe with the Mirage is :
                          Expensive compared to the MiG29M2
                          I'm not so sure about it's a2a capacity vis a vis the SUk30mki or the MiG29M2,
                          We need to make sure that the radar is good. Integration of R77 etc wil not be a big problem for indians We did it for M2K-H we will do it for M2k-5.
                          both of which have hms, TVC, longer ranged aams, and equally or more powerful radars.

                          1.LCA plans for HMS. the same will go in M2K if the deal goes thru.
                          2. Radar is a problem. Can explain furhter on the options available on the radars for us. The French will do all that they can to get the deal thru. So i wont be surprised if they offer the technologies from Rafale.


                          I will try to find some links regarding this possibility soon. Flight INtl had an article on the EL 2052 being designed for the Mirage 2k and the Su 30. If they could get it on the Mirage (a smaller plane) why not the Mig29M2. Heck, a Mig29 fan can at least hope :) http://www.flightinternational.com/FALANDING_194211.htm
                          If this article is right The radar isnt really tested. We need to wait and see what hte performance of the radar.
                          BTW whats the cross section for M2K radar.
                          Politically, I believe they will go for the F16/18 deal, esp. if they sign the exhorbitant Scorpene deal and get the Americans to give them an aesa. This way the French are happy, the Russians already have a whole list of indian orders and diversification of purchases is achieved. One BIG advantage of going with the U.S. - our tech is unlikely to find its way into the hands of the Pakistanis and esp. the Chinese. On the other hand, this is likely in case of France, Israel and Russia, which have shown great interest in supplying China with latest tech.

                          Regards,
                          USS.

                          Regards,
                          USS.

                          The F16 might go thru. But i m worried about the effect of the deal on PAK-Fa. But on the other hand what options does Russia have . they really cannot think of throwing us out of PAK-Fa rite now. In fact what new we learn(like AESA) will help the project too.
                          The scorpene deal might not see thru this year. The HDW has nearly stalled it all.
                          Govt is fighting with NAvy to look at HDW after all it comes at half the price and is theoretically better too. Apart from offering the inventives of customization that frnech arent really convenient. Not to mention the fact that Indians Dont want MESMA in their subs. And the first few Scorpenes arent gonna come with AIP. So a big point to look at the HDW. I support the HDW unless of course the french scorpenes can offer us some significant advantage in making our ATV.

                          U r rite.The russians already have their hands full with indian orders and as of now they really cannot offer the product good nough for these offers.

                          I dont think the russians are supplying Chineese with the latest technology. The SU20 deals are an idea. They still dont have the N011M. And if i m right the supplies from the russians for newer SU's have also stopped. If russiand will give china all the tech they have the chineese will not come back and buy at all. Instead eat away the russian market. Russians are playing their cards safe with it. Though they surely are offering a lot to india in terms of joint memberships like Brahmos KH172 PAK-FA.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by highsea
                            Great, all you have to do is cut it up into 6 pieces...

                            Notice I was talking about the Fulcrum, not the Flanker. I only mentioned the Flanker because the last news I heard from India concerning shrinking the Brahmos for the Flanker was that they had all but given up on the idea. But since you have it all figured out, why don't you give them a call and let them know it's no problem?
                            but you did mention the Flanker, so i responded to that, what's wrong with that

                            sure, you got their phone number? lol,

                            man, highsea, ou're real stressed, just relax, it's only a forum

                            yea, they could put it on the centre point of the Flanker, but on a Fulcrum, no wya, not yet

                            the MiG-29 will be cheaper

                            EL 2052, never heard of that before

                            actually, the MiG-29M is ready, are you guys talking about two-seat M2 or single seat M?

                            China has stopped licensed production of the Su-27SK
                            for MOTHER MOLDOVA

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Dima

                              EL 2052, never heard of that before
                              Hi dima,

                              check out this link.

                              http://www.c4isrjournal.com/story.php?F=upcoming

                              regards,
                              uSS.

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