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highsea
10 May 10,, 19:29
Lol. California public unions have an answer to the state's $20 billion budget shortfall.

$40 billion in tax increases, half of the money would go to increasing the number of state employees. :tongue:

Dems are so creative....

Capitol Alert: Union marchers propose $40 billion in tax hikes, other revenue (http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/capitolalertlatest/2010/04/union-marchers.html)

gunnut
10 May 10,, 20:19
I can't wait until this state goes bankrupt.

bonehead
11 May 10,, 06:22
May as well bleed California dry before handing it over to Mexico. The only condition is that Mexico has to take all the liberal kooks and nuts along with the land.

bonehead
11 May 10,, 06:24
P.S. Gunnut isn't a real nut so he is free to leave when he wants.

Genosaurer
11 May 10,, 08:18
Presumably they're planning to put some of that $40 billion towards building a wall around the state, to prevent what remains of their tax base from fleeing.

(In other news, fox proposes fixes to holes in henhouse.)

bonehead
11 May 10,, 17:10
I am all for the wall on the Oregon California border. We have too many escapees as it is. They flee the shit hole they created there and the first thing they do after moving here is say, " Oregon would be better if...." They then try to turn Oregon into another Californian utopia. Years later these same Californian transplants look around and say, "Wow this is starting to resemble the same shit hole I left in California....What happened?" These people are like a spreading disease.

highsea
11 May 10,, 17:26
^^^ Wall might have worked if you'd built it about 30 years ago...

Oregon's public employee pension system is $14 Billion in the hole. They did the same thing the California public unions are doing- PERS spent $7 million last year pushing that tax hike YOU supported.

Roosveltrepub
11 May 10,, 21:19
maybe they can raise property taxes to the national average?? /duck

bonehead
11 May 10,, 23:00
^^^ Wall might have worked if you'd built it about 30 years ago...

Oregon's public employee pension system is $14 Billion in the hole. They did the same thing the California public unions are doing- PERS spent $7 million last year pushing that tax hike YOU supported.

They have (OPEU) spent far more than that defeating the garbage that Bill Sizemore has put out in recent years. PERS is going down. New hire's are not getting the same rates as the older workers so in time the shortfall will be corrected. However I doubt those in Salem have the balls and the brains to curtail spending in good years so they can set up a rainy day fund for the bad years. Besides, there are many other places of pork in the budget that should be dealt with. If entities would stop blowing up the stock market PERS may not have been a problem in the first place.

Stitch
11 May 10,, 23:59
maybe they can raise property taxes to the national average?? /duck

For once, I agree with you; I think the root of Cal's budget problem is Proposition 13 (1978).

zraver
12 May 10,, 01:07
maybe they can raise property taxes to the national average?? /duck

With an income tax averaging 9.3% and a sales tax averaging 8.75% plus 1.25% property tax and you've eaten a 1/5th of a person's income in just 3 taxes.

bigross86
12 May 10,, 01:21
In Israel Income tax is between 25-44% depending on income, and VAT is 16%. National Insurance (Health) tax is 4.5-10.3%. The cities and townships in Israel also have a Rates tax levied on the residents which goes directly to the city/township and is not a set standard national tax. Where I live, it stands at 7.22%.

Sum total: Without the VAT the minimum you're going to pay is 36.7%, and that's only if you gross $2,475 or less a month. With VAT you're paying 52.7%. Give me a 19% tax any day, and two on Sunday.

Genosaurer
12 May 10,, 01:34
For once, I agree with you; I think the root of Cal's budget problem is Proposition 13 (1978).

Not according to this op-ed piece. (http://www.city-journal.org/2010/20_2_prop-13.html)

Worth reading the whole thing; but for the impatient the short version is that California residents already pay considerably more than the national average in state and local taxes (despite the Proposition 13 cap on property taxes), and that California already ranks among the highest in the nation in per-capita government revenue.

I'll admit I am probably not as well-versed on the subject as someone native to the state would be, so feel free to correct anything that's misrepresented by the author.

zraver
12 May 10,, 02:19
In Israel Income tax is between 25-44% depending on income, and VAT is 16%. National Insurance (Health) tax is 4.5-10.3%. The cities and townships in Israel also have a Rates tax levied on the residents which goes directly to the city/township and is not a set standard national tax. Where I live, it stands at 7.22%.

Sum total: Without the VAT the minimum you're going to pay is 36.7%, and that's only if you gross $2,475 or less a month. With VAT you're paying 52.7%. Give me a 19% tax any day, and two on Sunday.

That 19% is just 3 taxes at the state level. Then there are item specific taxes, gasoline taxes, other taxes to cover bond issues, licensing requirements for vehicles and professions and then federal taxes. Consider that the average US citizen pays about 25% taxes total and California gets 19% in just 3 taxes and you see how messed up it is in the Peoples Republic of Kalifnornia.

bigross86
12 May 10,, 11:01
That may be, but Israel you're paying at least 25% with just Income tax. Just to throw a little comparison into the picture, so you know that it really isn't all that bad...

kato
12 May 10,, 13:33
In Germany on a hypothetical average income, the states get a fixed rate of 8.9% tax, the Federal Government gets 9.4%, and the municipality the taxed person lives in gets 3.1%. Total tax load 21.4%.

On the median income, the above split is 5.2% / 5.5% / 1.8%. Total tax load 12.5%.

Add indirect taxation, sales tax is 19%, and there's a bunch of taxes on other stuff. Of course, in Germany most stuff that other countries pay out of the tax budget is handled through mandatory insurances...

highsea
12 May 10,, 17:24
They have (OPEU) spent far more than that defeating the garbage that Bill Sizemore has put out in recent years.So you oppose citizen's ballot initiatives?

Sizemore got the 3% annual limit on proprty tax hikes, and successfully eliminated the guaranteed 8% return on PERS. Pity the Oregon Supreme Court overturned the voice of the people, but of course they are part of the population that benefits from that 8% guaranteed annual increase. :rolleyes:

PERS is going down. New hire's are not getting the same rates as the older workers so in time the shortfall will be corrected.Wanna bet? You know, those public unions are the first in line calling for tax hikes on everyone else, but just wait till they have to increase their own contribution to PERS. You will hear the squawking all the way to Seattle.

Teacher's strike anyone?

However I doubt those in Salem have the balls and the brains to curtail spending in good years so they can set up a rainy day fund for the bad years. Besides, there are many other places of pork in the budget that should be dealt with. If entities would stop blowing up the stock market PERS may not have been a problem in the first place.The only State that has a real rainy day fund is Alaska, and they have no income tax or sales taxes.

Oregon has a tremendous renewable resource available in timber, but Oregon's legislators have foolishly handed control of that over to the federal gov't.

bonehead
12 May 10,, 19:37
So you oppose citizen's ballot initiatives?

Sizemore got the 3% annual limit on proprty tax hikes, and successfully eliminated the guaranteed 8% return on PERS. Pity the Oregon Supreme Court overturned the voice of the people, but of course they are part of the population that benefits from that 8% guaranteed annual increase. :rolleyes:
Wanna bet? You know, those public unions are the first in line calling for tax hikes on everyone else, but just wait till they have to increase their own contribution to PERS. You will hear the squawking all the way to Seattle.

Teacher's strike anyone?
The only State that has a real rainy day fund is Alaska, and they have no income tax or sales taxes.

Oregon has a tremendous renewable resource available in timber, but Oregon's legislators have foolishly handed control of that over to the federal gov't.

No. I am all for citizens ballot initiatives. What I am not for is some crook, ie Sizemore, defrauding the system.

gunnut
12 May 10,, 19:44
maybe they can raise property taxes to the national average?? /duck


For once, I agree with you; I think the root of Cal's budget problem is Proposition 13 (1978).

Then you're looking at thousands of families who will have to foreclose on their homes because they can't afford the property tax on their underwater, yet still extremely expensive houses.

What is the nation's average property tax rate? What is the average real estate value in California? Kicking out these people will produce a sudden glut on the market, causing real estate value to plunge, again. Then people will bitch and moan and run to the federal government. Guess who pays for this? The rest of the nation.

highsea
12 May 10,, 20:09
No. I am all for citizens ballot initiatives. What I am not for is some crook, ie Sizemore, defrauding the system.Meh. When you do what Sizemore does, you make powerful political enemies. They did the same thing to Tim Eyman in Washington. It's all politically motivated.

AFAIK, Sizemore's never received any criminal convictions.

bonehead
13 May 10,, 05:17
Meh. When you do what Sizemore does, you make powerful political enemies. They did the same thing to Tim Eyman in Washington. It's all politically motivated.

AFAIK, Sizemore's never received any criminal convictions.

You do understand that he has been found guilty of racketeering by a jury of his peers, been jailed numerous times for contempt of court, and is currently charged with tax evasion. Indicted not by political motivation but BY HIS OWN TESTIMONY. Bill Sizemore is a lying cheating snake. Period. Politically motivated my ass. If anything the state has been more than lenient with him. Bill Sizemore jailed for contempt of court | OregonLive.com (http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/12/bill_sizemore_jailed_for_conte.html) No low profile for indicted Sizemore -- he runs for governor | OregonLive.com (http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/04/no_low_profile_for_indicted_si.html)
Bill Sizemore jailed for contempt of court | OregonLive.com (http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/12/bill_sizemore_jailed_for_conte.html)

highsea
13 May 10,, 17:00
You do understand that he has been found guilty of racketeering by a jury of his peersA civil trial, where the teacher's union's lawyers disqualified every single republican or conservative in the jury pool. So yeah, they won a ruling and a huge settlement, they had a sympathetic jury and court.
...been jailed numerous times for contempt of courtHmm. I thought he was jailed only once, till he signed the tax returns. He was cited several times for the same offense.
...and is currently charged with tax evasion.Charged but not convicted.

Like I said, Eyman went through all this in Washington, for mostly the same reasons. Had these guys not been trying to curtail gov't spending, you never would have heard of them.

Roosveltrepub
13 May 10,, 17:42
A civil trial, where the teacher's union's lawyers disqualified every single republican or conservative in the jury pool. .

Is a civil suit different thsn a criminal one I had thought there was a numeric limit on disqualifications.

highsea
13 May 10,, 17:55
Don't know the rules in Oregon. Here's what Sizemore says in his defense:
For more than a decade, labor unions and liberal newspapers have smeared Bill Sizemore nonstop. However, before you believe absurd claims that Sizemore was “convicted” of using fraud and forgery to get measures on the ballot, consider these facts:

Fact one: Both at the beginning and end of the Oregon Taxpayers United trial, teachers union lawyers told the jury that the case was not about Bill Sizemore; that Sizemore was not a defendant, not being sued and, in fact, not even a party to the case.

Fact two: Before the trial began, teachers union lawyers removed every Republican from the Multnomah County jury pool, leaving Sizemore’s organization a stacked jury of 14 Democrats and one Pacific Green Party member.

Fact three: For the three years he presided over the case, Judge Jerome LaBarre concealed the fact that his son was an activist/member of the Oregon Education Association, the same union that was suing in his dad’s court. The judge’s son has even been elected a teachers union president.

Fact four: Judge LaBarre kept from the jury evidence that was critical to Oregon Taxpayers United’s defense.

Fact five: Nothing in the jury’s verdict even mentions Bill Sizemore. No witness in the trial claimed that Bill Sizemore was involved in or authorized any forgeries whatsoever.

Fact six: Notwithstanding media reports that Sizemore was convicted of racketeering, Sizemore has never been so much as charged with a crime in his entire life.

Fact seven: After the trial, another Portland judge ordered Sizemore to personally pay the OEA’s multimillion dollar judgment. Sizemore never received a trial or opportunity to defend himself.

Fact eight: The OEA has offered not to pursue their ill-gotten judgment against Sizemore if he would drop his appeal and agree to stay out of politics for 15 years. Sizemore refused.

Oregon’s liberal establishment has gone to the extreme, even railroading him in court, trying to get Bill Sizemore out of politics.

Roosveltrepub
13 May 10,, 21:01
Don't know the rules in Oregon. Here's what Sizemore says in his defense:

I read up on him. He evidently has lost his appeals as well and claims poverty but owns a 2.2 million dollar home. Not bad for a guy whose had 2 businesses declare bankruptcy. I really think the all democrat jury is a crock of shit. If they had that many challenges he would of had that many as well and they certainly couldnt of stacked the pool itself. The more I read the more he seems a crappy figuirehead for any anti tax movement.

highsea
13 May 10,, 21:11
^^^ Well the allegations of racketeering made in the press are certainly false- racketeering is a criminal offense, has nothing to do with civil suits.

highsea
13 May 10,, 21:48
I read up on him. He evidently has lost his appeals as well...The appeals court ruled that he wasn't personally liable, as far as I know that's where it left off. The Supreme Court upheld the original case, but only against his group.

The racketeering charge was brought by the union based on the claim that they had to spend $2.5 million "defending themselves" against the ballot initiative.

There were 100 bad signatures on the initiative petitions, out of many thousands of legit ones. Not enough to make a difference whether or not the iniative made it to the ballot.

edit to correct- these were the initiatives the union sued over:

In 2000, Oregon Taxpayers United PAC placed two measures on the ballot, which eventually led the unions to file their lawsuit. One measure prohibited the use of any taxpayer owned resource to collect political funds for the public employee unions. It is our position that government should play a neutral role in elections, not helping either side. Currently, government collects millions of dollars in political funds for one side of the political debate, the public employee unions.

The second measure required that before a union could deduct money from an employee's paycheck and use that money for a political purpose, the union first had to get the employee's written consent for the deduction.

<end edit>

I see nothing wrong with those initiatives.

You constanty give ACORN a pass for fraudulent voter registrations numbering in the hundreds of thousands, yet you think Sizemore is a crook for the 100 bad signatures on his ballot initiative?

Roosveltrepub
13 May 10,, 23:31
The appeals court ruled that he wasn't personally liable, as far as I know that's where it left off. The Supreme Court upheld the original case, but only against his group.

The racketeering charge was brought by the union based on the claim that they had to spend $2.5 million "defending themselves" against the ballot initiative.

There were 100 bad signatures on the initiative petitions, out of many thousands of legit ones. Not enough to make a difference whether or not the iniative made it to the ballot.

edit to correct- these were the initiatives the union sued over:

In 2000, Oregon Taxpayers United PAC placed two measures on the ballot, which eventually led the unions to file their lawsuit. One measure prohibited the use of any taxpayer owned resource to collect political funds for the public employee unions. It is our position that government should play a neutral role in elections, not helping either side. Currently, government collects millions of dollars in political funds for one side of the political debate, the public employee unions.

The second measure required that before a union could deduct money from an employee's paycheck and use that money for a political purpose, the union first had to get the employee's written consent for the deduction.

<end edit>

I see nothing wrong with those initiatives.

You constanty give ACORN a pass for fraudulent voter registrations numbering in the hundreds of thousands, yet you think Sizemore is a crook for the 100 bad signatures on his ballot initiative?

It was forged sheets and done by a convicted forger. I don't know where you get the 100 number from. I read some of the actions of the court against him. I'm sorry he's a dirtbag who claims to be a tax expert yet his non profits file fraudelent returns and he didn't file state or federal taxes for three years. He's forbidden to draw a salary from a non profit by court order. He's bankrupt two businesses, was living in a 2.3 million dollar home in 2007 and now claims poverty and has a public defender. He's going to jail this time. He also was held personally responsible for that fine when he tried some manuevers to avoid having his non profit pay it. He lied on his donation/expenditure sheets on his 501c tax returns allowing his to spend a lot more money pushing that intiative than he would of been able to spend.

highsea
14 May 10,, 04:33
I don't know where you get the 100 number from.From a letter from his attorney to the Oregonian after they wrote an editorial comparing him to O.J. Simpson.
Mr. Robert J. Caldwell
The Oregonian
1320 SW Broadway
Portland, OR

Dear Mr. Caldwell:

I cannot let the many inaccuracies in your December 11 editorial ("Sizemore vs. the teachers unions") go unchallenged. There were basically two issues in the 2002 trial, forged signatures on initiative petitions and financial reports alleged to be inaccurate by a disgruntled ex-employee of Oregon Taxpayers United. The evidence was that fewer than 100 signatures were forged, out of hundreds of thousands submitted by OTU. There was not a shred of evidence that Bill Sizemore himself was personally involved in the forgeries, and the jury did not find that he was. Indeed, the undisputed evidence was that OTU followed a meticulous review process to ensure that signatures were valid.

As to the financial reports, one involved tax returns that had been prepared by a pre-eminent Portland accounting firm, an unlikely accomplice in a scheme to misrepresent one's finances. The issue there was whether the extent of OTU's "political" activities were accurately reported. The only evidence that they were not came from a former OTU employee who had quit after being denied a raise and who herself had provided the information to the accountants. It is ironic that these returns were challenged by labor unions that regularly report zero political expenditures on their own tax returns.

Your statement that a jury found that "Sizemore's crew engaged in a 'calculated course of criminal conduct' and 'cynical, criminal manipulation of the democratic process" is incorrect. Those were statements of the judge who presided at the trial, not the jury, a judge who could scarcely conceal his contempt for Sizemore during the trial. He later removed himself from the case when his son's membership in the Oregon Education Association, one of the plaintiffs, became public. The Oregonian chose not to cover that story, however.

You report correctly that the appeals court let stand the forgery judgment but not the false reports judgment. What you omit is that this was a decision of 2 of the 3 judges on the appellate panel. The third would have thrown out all of the charges. OTU believes the dissenting judge is correct and will be requesting further review in the Supreme Court.

Finally, your comparison of Bill Sizemore to a murderer reveals an appalling lack of journalistic integrity. If Sizemore is guilty of anything it is in trusting employees who would betray him and in taking on the all-powerful public employee unions, the same unions the Oregonian just recently discovered had something to do with bloated PERS pensions, sick leave and disability abuses, and other "cynical manipulations" of the Oregon taxpayer.

Gregory W. Byrne
Attorney at Law
5550 SW Macadam Ave., Ste. 220
Portland, OR 97239

He also was held personally responsible for that fine when he tried some manuevers to avoid having his non profit pay it.Provide a link. Every report I have read said the appeals court held that he wasn't personally liable.
Personal liability and 2007 lawsuits

Once the unions had secured this legal victory against OTU and OTUF, they returned to court, filing a lawsuit claiming that Sizemore himself should be held personally responsible for payment of the $2.5 million court-ordered fine against OTU and OTUF. The unions won that lawsuit in 2004.[9] Sizemore appealed the judicial decision holding him personally liable and in December 2006, the Oregon Court of Appeals granted him a win on that question.

http://www.ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Bill_Sizemore#Personal_liability_and_2007_lawsuits


The Oregon Supreme Court didn't overturn that ruling. He paid something like $125K in attorney fees, that's it.

Here's the Supreme Court ruling that affirms the Court of Appeals:
http://www.publications.ojd.state.or.us/S054403.htm

Blue
14 May 10,, 05:20
Lol. California public unions have an answer to the state's $20 billion budget shortfall.

$40 billion in tax increases, half of the money would go to increasing the number of state employees. :tongue:

Dems are so creative....

Capitol Alert: Union marchers propose $40 billion in tax hikes, other revenue (http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/capitolalertlatest/2010/04/union-marchers.html)

Its like asking the foxes asking me to buy more chickens!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!

libtard assholes!

bonehead
14 May 10,, 07:20
I read up on him. He evidently has lost his appeals as well and claims poverty but owns a 2.2 million dollar home. Not bad for a guy whose had 2 businesses declare bankruptcy. I really think the all democrat jury is a crock of shit. If they had that many challenges he would of had that many as well and they certainly couldnt of stacked the pool itself. The more I read the more he seems a crappy figuirehead for any anti tax movement.

Sizemore is nothing but a conservative acorn. The authorities knows they (Bill and Acorn) are dirty but no one wants to wade through all the BS to prosecute them. People like Loren Parks are the only reason Sizemore has not faced a criminal court, but then Oregonians are not supposed to know that much of the money for the measures Sizemore fronts is coming from out of state. Sizemore is nothing but a sock puppet for Mr Parks and a stupid one at that. Loren Parks biggest push is to quiet the unions in politics, and it is not difficult to see why. With them out of the way Mr parks can virtually buy any law he wishes because there is no one else to counter all the money he throws into Oregon's politics.

Nevada millionaire who bankrolls Oregon issues, candidates keeps low profile - OregonLive.com (http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1223704503110820.xml&coll=7)

Oregon anti-tax activist Bill Sizemore admits personal use of funds | OregonLive.com (http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/10/oregon_antitax_activist_admits.html)

Roosveltrepub
14 May 10,, 18:14
From a letter from his attorney to the Oregonian after they wrote an editorial comparing him to O.J. Simpson.
Provide a link. Every report I have read said the appeals court held that he wasn't personally liable.

The Oregon Supreme Court didn't overturn that ruling. He paid something like $125K in attorney fees, that's it.

Here's the Supreme Court ruling that affirms the Court of Appeals:
Oregon Judicial Department Appellate Court Opinions (http://www.publications.ojd.state.or.us/S054403.htm)

Bill Sizemore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Sizemore)
I don't think a claim by his Lawyer is a good source.

highsea
15 May 10,, 10:01
Bill Sizemore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Sizemore)
I don't think a claim by his Lawyer is a good source.Oh, and Wiki is gospel? :rolleyes:

I don't know if you're just stupid, or stubborn, or lazy, or all three.

Do you know his lawyer could be sanctioned by the Oregon State Bar Association for misrepresenting the facts in the case? That letter was to the Oregonian newspaper. That lawyer is bound by his legal code of ethics- he's not going to throw away his career by lying about facts that are in evidence in a case. I know this, I have been down that road myself. Laywers are extremely finicky about what they say and don't say.

In any case, you're wiki article confirms what I said, if you would drill through their source links.

I posted the Supreme Court ruling- that is the LAST WORD. Get it? The rulings were against his organizations, not him personally. The Supreme Court only mentioned 25 bad signatures. 25. Read it.

The simple fact is, Sizemore has saved Oregon taxpayers millions of dollars. The guy who rents part of my shop told me today that his property tax payments would have exceeded his mortgage payment had Sizemore not got his property tax initiative to the voters.

Sure, the politicians hate him, the public unions hate him, that goes without saying. They suck off the taxpayer tit and he took some of that away from them. Good for him.

To Bonehead- do you think there is no national money in State elections? If you do, you're extremely naive. SEIU alone spent $2 million on measures 67 and 68 last year- the doubling of the fees for renewing business licenses in Oregon.

The Kerry presidential campaign funded the third recount in Washington's 2004 Governor election, finally awarding the election to Democrat Chris Gregoire by a tiny handful of votes. That election was tainted by ACORN fraud as well.

There are PAC's galore pumping millions into elections in every State in the union. Oregon's law restricting out of state money is designed to make it nearly impossible to get any citizen sponsored initiatives on the ballot. That's what all it's about- State governments HATE the initiative process, it takes the checkbook away from the legislature and puts it in the hands of the voters.

Yes, Sizemore should have filed his tax returns, no excuse. He stated his reasons (which had some merit), and he filed 1040ES forms and paid the money on time, but he didn't file a final return and for that he will be penalized.

After all, he's no Tim Geithner or Charlie Rangel, so he can't expect to skate.

Did you know that the Oregon Attorney General kept the Sizemore indictments sealed until after the Tax Amnesty period expired? Strictly because he didn't want Sizemore to catch wind of the plan to prosecute him, and file his amended returns. Within a day or two after the amnesty expired, the Atty. General unsealed the indictments. Gotcha.

Tell me there's no politics in that one.

Roosveltrepub
15 May 10,, 11:39
Oh, and Wiki is gospel? :rolleyes:

I don't know if you're just stupid, or stubborn, or lazy, or all three.

Do you know his lawyer could be sanctioned by the Oregon State Bar Association for misrepresenting the facts in the case? That letter was to the Oregonian newspaper. That lawyer is bound by his legal code of ethics- he's not going to throw away his career by lying about facts that are in evidence in a case. I know this, I have been down that road myself. Laywers are extremely finicky about what they say and don't say.

In any case, you're wiki article confirms what I said, if you would drill through their source links.

I posted the Supreme Court ruling- that is the LAST WORD. Get it? The rulings were against his organizations, not him personally. The Supreme Court only mentioned 25 bad signatures. 25. Read it.

The simple fact is, Sizemore has saved Oregon taxpayers millions of dollars. The guy who rents part of my shop told me today that his property tax payments would have exceeded his mortgage payment had Sizemore not got his property tax initiative to the voters.

Sure, the politicians hate him, the public unions hate him, that goes without saying. They suck off the taxpayer tit and he took some of that away from them. Good for him.

To Bonehead- do you think there is no national money in State elections? If you do, you're extremely naive. SEIU alone spent $2 million on measures 67 and 68 last year- the doubling of the fees for renewing business licenses in Oregon.

The Kerry presidential campaign funded the third recount in Washington's 2004 Governor election, finally awarding the election to Democrat Chris Gregoire by a tiny handful of votes. That election was tainted by ACORN fraud as well.

There are PAC's galore pumping millions into elections in every State in the union. Oregon's law restricting out of state money is designed to make it nearly impossible to get any citizen sponsored initiatives on the ballot. That's what all it's about- State governments HATE the initiative process, it takes the checkbook away from the legislature and puts it in the hands of the voters.

Yes, Sizemore should have filed his tax returns, no excuse. He stated his reasons (which had some merit), and he filed 1040ES forms and paid the money on time, but he didn't file a final return and for that he will be penalized.

After all, he's no Tim Geithner or Charlie Rangel, so he can't expect to skate.

Did you know that the Oregon Attorney General kept the Sizemore indictments sealed until after the Tax Amnesty period expired? Strictly because he didn't want Sizemore to catch wind of the plan to prosecute him, and file his amended returns. Within a day or two after the amnesty expired, the Atty. General unsealed the indictments. Gotcha.

Tell me there's no politics in that one.

I'm quite stubborn, pretty stupid and quite lazy and he was ordered to pay that fine himself. Yes, I know they were sealed and did you know Sizemore didnt take advantage of the amnesty program and still hasn't filed for those three years despite your claim otherwise? I don't know where you get your facts but I'd guess it's from a conniving liar named Sizemore whoose made a living off 501c orgainizations and has an incredible disregard for the law regarding them. There are no good excuses for not filing federal or state returns for three years. I never claimed he didnt save taxpayers money. The means does not justify the end. I loved all the other crap you threw against the wall but, the law wasn't broken.

Bill Sizemore tells judge he's broke and needs a lawyer to defend him against tax evasion charges | Oregonlive.com (http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2010/03/bill_sizemore_tells_judge_hes.html)
Think Out Loud Getting Sizemore Straight Oregon Public Broadcasting (http://www.opb.org/thinkoutloud/blog/getting-sizemore-straight/)

highsea
15 May 10,, 21:27
I'm quite stubborn, pretty stupid and quite lazy and he was ordered to pay that fine himself. It doesn't matter how many times you make that claim, it remains untrue.
When the judgment against OTU-PAC regarding Claim 3 (alleged filing of false C&E Reports) was overturned by the Oregon Court of Appeals (in a decision that was upheld by the Oregon Supreme Court) the personal judgments against Bill Sizemore were ordered removed. As a result of the appellate decisions, Bill Sizemore no longer personally owes the Plaintiff’s money from the underlying ORICO case.The portion that was remanded was Claim 2, the part about the 25 forged sponsor signatures. If you'll read the Supreme Court decision I linked, it is stated clearly. Claim 2 is what the court used as a rationale to ban him from further political activities. It had nothing to do with attempt to hold him personally liable- that was Claim 3, and was tossed out by the Appelate Court. Simple.

That is why corporations are formed, whether for profit or otherwise- to separate personal liability from corporate liability. It happens every day in America.

My own personal assets are separate from my business assets. There is nothing even remotely unusual about that. As long as I sign agreements in my capacity of an officer of the company, my personal assets are protected from corporate debt, unless I engage in fraud. When that charge in Claim 3 (filing false reports) was dismissed, the judgement against Sizemore went with it.

The $2.5 million was the award from Claim 3 against the PAC from the District Court, and it bankrupted the corporation. The OEA Union went in and collected all the assets, and they shut the doors. But it was overturned, and Sizemore now has a claim against the union for $17,000, the amount they siezed.

I know you're not intelligent enough to grasp this, so this will be my last effort- you're not worth the time it takes to keep repeating the same facts.

The only remaining judgment against the PAC was for the two or three dozen signatures forged on statements of sponsorship, actions performed solely by Kelli Highley, who stated under oath in her own criminal case that no one authorized her to forge those signatures and that in fact no one at OTU even knew that she had done so. No effort was made to refute Highley’s claim that she acted entirely alone. Now, absent a jury finding that Bill Sizemore authorized Ms. Highley’s forgeries, there is no legal basis for holding him personally liable for her unlawful actions. The court’s Order ignores this reality and holds a non-defendant liable for actions he did not commit and did not authorize and penalizes him by saddling him with severe restrictions on his constitutional rights, all based on a claim that was overturned by the appellate courts.That's from the motion currently before the Appelate Court on the remanded Claim 2, which is the grounds for restricting Sizemore's political activities.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE $2.5 MILLION. It's strictly about restoring Sizemore's First Amendment rights.

http://www.billsizemore.com/billsizemore-motion-to-modify-order.pdf

Genosaurer
15 May 10,, 21:39
If nothing else, I'm finding it interesting to follow the discussion. I hadn't heard anything about this guy until it was brought up here.

highsea
15 May 10,, 22:22
If nothing else, I'm finding it interesting to follow the discussion. I hadn't heard anything about this guy until it was brought up here.They railroaded Tim Eyman in Washington the exact same way. Just like Sizemore, he saved state taxpayers billions of dollars, and they went after him with everything they had.

Moral of the story is, if you want to start a citizen initiative, you better be squeaky clean- one meal, one plane ticket, one tank of gas, on the PAC tab and you will be ruined.

They will spend any amount of money scrutinizing every single filing, every single signature, every single expense report, all your personal finances, tax returns, etc. They will atack you with teams of lawyers for years, however long it takes to financially ruin you. They will NEVER back off.

They can't stop you, but you better be broke when you start, because you will most certainly be broke when they are done with you.

bonehead
17 May 10,, 00:03
They railroaded Tim Eyman in Washington the exact same way. Just like Sizemore, he saved state taxpayers billions of dollars, and they went after him with everything they had.

Moral of the story is, if you want to start a citizen initiative, you better be squeaky clean- one meal, one plane ticket, one tank of gas, on the PAC tab and you will be ruined.

They will spend any amount of money scrutinizing every single filing, every single signature, every single expense report, all your personal finances, tax returns, etc. They will atack you with teams of lawyers for years, however long it takes to financially ruin you. They will NEVER back off.

They can't stop you, but you better be broke when you start, because you will most certainly be broke when they are done with you.

That is a steaming pile o' crap Highsea. Sizemore is anything but squeaky clean. In addition to the election fraud, Bill did not pay his taxes...HELLO!. He was even offered amnesty and he refused. It does not matter your politics, race, or color of your skin. They will come after you for non payment of taxes or even not filing. You and Bill can cling to the martyr defence but the facts are...HE BROKE THE LAW. He did so consciously and willingly as he mistakenly believes he is above the law. Al Capone had a better book keeping system to defraud the IRS and look what happened to him. Do not worry about Bill. As long as his surgerdaddy Loren Parks is alive, Bill can run businesses into the ground, plunder sham non profit /tax exempt organizations and still be O.K financially. Frankly, it is a wonder that Bill is not already doing serious prison time from his past criminal activities.

highsea
17 May 10,, 00:26
LMAO. He paid his taxes in 06 and 07, he just didn't file returns. He filed 1040 ES when he sent the money.

I never gave him a pass on not filing. But his penalty is not the common one. The US outlawed debtors prisons a couple hundred years ago. I doubt even the Oregon Atty. General will be able to make a prison sentence stick.

But he would have been better off to file and not pay, he would at least have have been in compliance.

I know, I've been there. It's a mistake to not file, even if you don't have the money to pay the taxman.

Normal procedure is to file levies, go to court, get a judgement, etc. Going straight to criminal charges is the very extreme end of the process

As I already mentiond, Sizemore isn't Tim Geithner or Charlie Rangel- so he can't expect preferential treatment like politicians and bankers get.

As far as his businesses, who cares? In America you are allowed to try to start a business. So he couldn't make it selling carpet or making toys. That's not a crime. :rolleyes:

If Parks or anyone else wants to fund him, why should you care? It's not your money or taxpayer dollars he's spending.

You've drank the kool-aid, it's obvious. He hasn't been convicted of any criminal wrongdoing, sorry to burst your bubble.

bonehead
17 May 10,, 07:39
Sizemore knows he did not do the right thing and he continues not to fullfill his obligations which is why he has been jailed 4 times over a period of years for contempt of court for not filling out his taxes properly. This is no accident or memory lapse. Thats is a pattern of willfully trying to ignore the law. You may think setting up sham non profit organizations so you can launder money from them but that shows his true unethical character. He can not make it as an honest businessman but he is making a great living as a crook.

Why do I care? When I was in college he ****ed up my second major. The curriculum was gone weeks after the election. I was only a couple classes away from completing that. Oregon had to spend money changing the rules so signature gatherers are now paid by the hour rather than by the signature. Bill's people used to be worse than panhandlers before then. Every year Bill keeps coming out with several measures in the hopes that enough people who drank his kool aid will vote for them. It cost the state money to print out all this for voting. One or two measures, fine. Five, Six seven or more? Enough is enough. Lastly, I have had to personally spend my valuable time and money fighting his God awful measures. Now my tax money has to go to pay for his defense attorney because this cretin believed he can funnel 700k from sham not profit organizations, not file a return for, not one, but 3 consecutive years, but it is all hunky dory because he sent in 50k. Bill could not run an honest campaign if his life depended on it. One thing he does deserve is to be in the hot seat. He has worked long and hard ignoring and breaking laws to get there.

highsea
17 May 10,, 17:14
Sizemore knows he did not do the right thing and he continues not to fullfill his obligations which is why he has been jailed 4 times over a period of years for contempt of court for not filling out his taxes properly.I think if you check, you will find that he was cited 3 or 4 times, but only jailed once. He signed the papers and was released.

This is no accident or memory lapse. Thats is a pattern of willfully trying to ignore the law. You may think setting up sham non profit organizations so you can launder money from them but that shows his true unethical character. He can not make it as an honest businessman but he is making a great living as a crook.Well, I guess it's up to you to prove that, since the teams of union lawyers were unable to.

If you think being in business in Oregon is easy, I invite you to try it. I imagine his experiences at that were what pushed Sizemore to become a tax activist in the first place. Oregon is an extremely hostile environment for small business.

Why do I care? When I was in college he ****ed up my second major. The curriculum was gone weeks after the election. I was only a couple classes away from completing that.Okay, so your mad that the taxpayer subsidy you were receiving went away.

You could always transfer those credits to another school and take the remaining couple of classes there.

Lastly, I have had to personally spend my valuable time and money fighting his God awful measures.Your decision, no one held a gun to your head.

Now my tax money has to go to pay for his defense attorneyYour tax dollars would go to PD's whether they were defending Sizemore or someone else anyway.

I find it interesting that in the beginning of this thread, you were critical of California unions pushing massive tax hikes on the citizens. When I pointed out your inconsistency by supporting the unions in Oregon that spent millions doing the exact same thing, suddenly you shift sides. :confused:

bonehead
18 May 10,, 07:24
I think if you check, you will find that he was cited 3 or 4 times, but only jailed once. He signed the papers and was released.
Well, I guess it's up to you to prove that, since the teams of union lawyers were unable to.

If you think being in business in Oregon is easy, I invite you to try it. I imagine his experiences at that were what pushed Sizemore to become a tax activist in the first place. Oregon is an extremely hostile environment for small business.
Okay, so your mad that the taxpayer subsidy you were receiving went away.

You could always transfer those credits to another school and take the remaining couple of classes there.
Your decision, no one held a gun to your head.
Your tax dollars would go to PD's whether they were defending Sizemore or someone else anyway.

I find it interesting that in the beginning of this thread, you were critical of California unions pushing massive tax hikes on the citizens. When I pointed out your inconsistency by supporting the unions in Oregon that spent millions doing the exact same thing, suddenly you shift sides. :confused:


Apparently you are too busy drinking the Sizemore's cool aid to read the links. Here is another. The Oregon supreme court ruling. The title of the article says it all. Supreme Court confirms Bill Sizemore as racketeer - OregonLive.com (http://www.oregonlive.com/news/argus/index.ssf?/base/news/1215541246202320.xml&coll=6) It is clear the lawyers made their point whether you chose to believe it or not. Now that the voters In Oregon have become wise to Bill, he will have a much more difficult time sneaking one in again and his odds of becoming Governor is about as good as FDR coming back from the grave and winning next weeks Powerball. Gee. I wonder if he is running so he can use the campaign funds for his personal use. Because, well...He has never done anything like that before.

How little you know of College. University of Oregon was about the only college that had that particular major so going somewhere else was not an option. Nor can it be so easily explained that I was mad that "the subsidy was taken away". The measure was written in such a fashion as to explode the budget of more than just colleges. Ramping down budgets is one thing, but that measure threw the budgets off a cliff. You can thank Bill for me being so politically active. Since he pearl harbored me I have made it a point not to let him, and others like him, ruin Oregon for their gain. Bill Sizemore is nothing but a snake oil salesman. He is a fraud and a cheat. The concept of reining in spending is a good cause. However there are many ways to do this. Unfortunately, as long as a man such as Bill is at the forefront the cause is doomed.

There you go assuming again. I never even mentioned the unions until discussing a specific point with you. California has much bigger problems than unions. If your anti unionism is all you can see then you are clearly missing the much, much bigger problems in California, I did not change sides. It is you who are simply grasping at straws.

highsea
18 May 10,, 18:11
Apparently you are too busy drinking the Sizemore's cool aid to read the links. Here is another. The Oregon supreme court ruling. The title of the article says it all. Supreme Court confirms Bill Sizemore as racketeer - OregonLive.com (http://www.oregonlive.com/news/argus/index.ssf?/base/news/1215541246202320.xml&coll=6) LMAO. I read the Supreme Court ruling, and posted it on this thread in it's entirety. It says nothing of the sort.

The newspapers in Oregon are liberal rags. That article is garbage as far as accuracy, but I know it makes you feel better to buy into the union line.

How little you know of College. University of Oregon was about the only college that had that particular major so going somewhere else was not an option.Right. :rolleyes:

What major was that again?


Nor can it be so easily explained that I was mad that "the subsidy was taken away". The measure was written in such a fashion as to explode the budget of more than just colleges. Ramping down budgets is one thing, but that measure threw the budgets off a cliff.And what measure exactly are you referring to that slashed college budgets 2 or 3 weeks after being approved by the voters of Oregon?

I think you're full of shit.

Cry me a river. Sizemore's "crime" was to give the voters in Oregon a say in their tax burden. It was the voters that made the decision, not Sizemore.

You want to blame the citizens of Oregon, fine. You want to blame UO for cancelling your program, fine.

If you want to know where the real blame lies, it's with the EPA and the tree huggers for destroying the way education is funded in both Oregon and Washington- namely timber.

Roosveltrepub
18 May 10,, 22:26
[QUOTE=highsea;737537] .

The newspapers in Oregon are liberal rags.

Cry me a river. Sizemore's "crime" was to give the voters in Oregon a say in their tax burden. It was the voters that made the decision, not Sizemore.

QUOTE]

Actually Sizemore's crimes center more around using funds from a 501c illegally and tax evasion.
The refrain the press lies must be a nice one to fall back on if they report something you wish weren't true. I'd think if the denials were based in truth he'd of brought suit don't you?

highsea
18 May 10,, 23:05
Actually Sizemore's crimes center more around using funds from a 501c illegally and tax evasion.The tax evasion we've already covered at least 3 times. As of yet, he is not convicted of anything.

As far as his non-profits, the ruling of the Supreme Court is the last word.

The initial judgement in District Court was a sham due to the conflict of interest between the judge and the plaintiffs. Since it was overturned on appeal, and that was upheld by the Supreme Court, charges of his illegal use of funds, racketeering, etc. don't hold water.

You can believe whatever you want, but the ruling of the courts is what matters. The only thing left to be resolved is whether or not he can be held liable for the actions of one of his employees wrt the 25 forged signatures.

That's it. That's all that's left of that kangaroo court trial.

The refrain the press lies must be a nice one to fall back on if they report something you wish weren't true. I'd think if the denials were based in truth he'd of brought suit don't you?I don't speak for him or his attorneys.

I'm smart enough to read the ruling, which is something the press seems to consider optional. That article was just a regurgitation of the union line, and labels him with criminal behavior he was not charged with, let alone convicted of.

I've challenged you to prove otherwise, and you can't.

JCT
18 May 10,, 23:17
So you oppose citizen's ballot initiatives?

Yes, I'm dead set against them! The people of California have voted themselves plenty of bread and circus shows, one reason the state has the budget difficulties that it does. There is a reason we are a Republic and not a direct democracy. How many people bother to read the literature about each proposition? Or do they just read the title and go, 'Yes, more money for children's hospitals are a GOOD THING!' (example proposition from a few years ago.)

I have to agree, more money for children's hospitals is a good thing, but nearly a billion dollars for them when we are in such financial straits? Particularly when they still had several HUNDRED million dollars left over from the previous proposition giving them additional funds?

Hundreds of millions of dollar to go towards a STUDY for a high-speed rail line between LA and SF? Not a single foot of track laid, just money for a STUDY! The people here are stupid and I'm obviously in the wrong business...

Too bad (for me) I like San Diego too much to leave.

/rant

highsea
18 May 10,, 23:32
Yes, I'm dead set against them! The people of California have voted themselves plenty of bread and circus shows, one reason the state has the budget difficulties that it does. There is a reason we are a Republic and not a direct democracy. How many people bother to read the literature about each proposition?
/rantJCT, the problem lies with the citizens, not the ability to have ballot initiatives. It works both ways, you can also have initiatives that restrict spending. The challenge is getting the government to follow the will of the people.

You have to look carefully- were those bread and circus spending initiatives created by the citizens or the legislature? It's usually the legislature that puts those measures on the ballot.

highsea
19 May 10,, 16:24
...There is a reason we are a Republic and not a direct democracy.California is a republic? I thought it was a commuinist country. :biggrin:

...Too bad (for me) I like San Diego too much to leave.In Washington, the people that live on the east of the Cascades complain because the Puget Sound basin controls the state. That's where the population is. So the state legislature spends like crazy on the west side of the mountains, and the people on the east side get their taxes hiked.

Once you get out of the Puget Sound basin, the state is pretty conservative. But it's run by liberal dems. The solution would be to split the state, but not much chance of that ever happening.

gunnut
19 May 10,, 18:05
California is a republic? I thought it was a commuinist country. :biggrin:

We are a "Democratic People's Republic." Get your terms straight. :mad:

Like JCT, I'm against our initiative process. Very often the measure was put on the ballot with union money. Teachers union, nurses union, police and firefighters union, all use their union dues to influence political outcome. They put measures on ballots that borrow money from the future to pay for swelling their ranks in the present.

Just a few months ago LA defeated a measure put on the ballot by the electrical workers union. The measure was to spend tax dollars to renovate electrical infrastructure by installing solar panels on public buildings. Of course only a "certified" union worker can work for the government. This measure also would spend money on hiring and training new electrical workers, who would have to join the union.

Citizen's initiative process is abused by unions and special interests way more than correctly used by the citizens as intended.

JCT
19 May 10,, 22:36
California is a republic? I thought it was a commuinist country.

More of a muddled mix of representative, direct democracy, and socialist leanings, all stirred up to provide the worst of each without any clear benefits.


JCT, the problem lies with the citizens, not the ability to have ballot initiatives. It works both ways, you can also have initiatives that restrict spending. The challenge is getting the government to follow the will of the people.

You have to look carefully- were those bread and circus spending initiatives created by the citizens or the legislature? It's usually the legislature that puts those measures on the ballot.

Sorry, I do not remember if it was a 'citizen' sponsored initiative or legislature sponsored. I have the ballot pamphlet at home for the current round of voting, I'll have to check for any similar propositions.

highsea
19 May 10,, 22:58
We are a "Democratic People's Republic." Get your terms straight. :mad:My apologies comrade, I will try to be more careful. :biggrin:

Just a few months ago LA defeated a measure put on the ballot by the electrical workers union. The measure was to spend tax dollars to renovate electrical infrastructure by installing solar panels on public buildings. Of course only a "certified" union worker can work for the government. This measure also would spend money on hiring and training new electrical workers, who would have to join the union.

Citizen's initiative process is abused by unions and special interests way more than correctly used by the citizens as intended.I see your point. Obama recently did the same thing by executive order- required that all Federal building upgrades be performed by union labor.

I guess it will cut both ways no matter what you do, but initiatives are the only way for citizens to defund the government, so what does that leave you with?

JCT
19 May 10,, 23:32
I guess it will cut both ways no matter what you do, but initiatives are the only way for citizens to defund the government, so what does that leave you with?

Throw the bums out and start over? Or establish term limits as the law of the land? Or the one that I really prefer, make gerrymandering illegal so that there are fewer 'safe' districts. Safe districts, no matter the color, seem to spawn extremism. If your district is safely blue/red, then you have to be more liberal/conservative than the other guy from your party. The putz from the other party doesn't stand a chance anyways.

Or just shoot all the lawyers.

highsea
19 May 10,, 23:43
^^^ All of the above works for me JCT. :)

Blue
20 May 10,, 03:45
Throw the bums out and start over? Or establish term limits as the law of the land? Or the one that I really prefer, make gerrymandering illegal so that there are fewer 'safe' districts. Safe districts, no matter the color, seem to spawn extremism. If your district is safely blue/red, then you have to be more liberal/conservative than the other guy from your party. The putz from the other party doesn't stand a chance anyways.

Or just shoot all the lawyers.

Preachin' to the choir bro'!;)