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View Full Version : IAF MiG 29 Baaz Vs F16 blk 50+. F 15 E



Aryaramnaes
23 Apr 05,, 21:54
How good are the IAF MiG 29 Fulcrums 'Baaz' vs the F 16 Blk 50+ series and say the F 15 Eagle? I believe IAF has 60 Mig 29's and they're getting more MiG 29 K's as well, how will they fare?

I used to think the MiG 29 was one of the best fighters but I feel that it lacks in EW, and overall technology....like how the F16 Falcons have superior Jamming capabilty.

Could anybody enlighten me, I know some people here have an inherent bias againt the MiG 29 and some are blinded against its fallacies and claim it to be the best.... so if anybody could give me an objective answer, it would be really cool.

barrowaj
23 Apr 05,, 22:54
MiG-29 gets owned. K model manages to get some kills. EOD.

Aryaramnaes
24 Apr 05,, 00:16
MiG-29 gets owned. K model manages to get some kills. EOD.

can anyone elaborate on that using specs?

Bill
24 Apr 05,, 00:34
The F-15E is a bomber more than a fighter, though it does have impressive kinematic performance and a good radar/AAM package.

The F-15C is the air superiority model.

Blademaster
24 Apr 05,, 01:45
The F-15E is a bomber more than a fighter, though it does have impressive kinematic performance and a good radar/AAM package.

The F-15C is the air superiority model.

What is the different between a bomber and a strike aircraft? Recent and latest developments have blurred the lines separating the bomber and strike roles for tactical aircrafts.

Dima
24 Apr 05,, 02:07
MiG-29 gets owned. K model manages to get some kills. EOD.

he asked for an objective answer, not subjective

Bill
24 Apr 05,, 16:50
"What is the different between a bomber and a strike aircraft? Recent and latest developments have blurred the lines separating the bomber and strike roles for tactical aircrafts."

Weight. The F-15E weighs a lot more than the F-15C, giving the F-15C better performance even though it has less thrust.

sniperdude411
24 Apr 05,, 18:46
US aircraft will always be superior. I'm talking about production aircraft, not experimental. I used to be a total plane fanatic (the posters in my room still say I am, but that's not as true anymore), knowing every basic specification of all production military aircraft, like weight, maximum payload, role, wingspan, length, etc. The F-16 is much better in almost every way than the Mig-29. The F-15 is really an aircraft with overwhelming power. Not that it's not maneuverable.

ajaybhutani
24 Apr 05,, 21:08
US aircraft will always be superior. I'm talking about production aircraft, not experimental. I used to be a total plane fanatic (the posters in my room still say I am, but that's not as true anymore), knowing every basic specification of all production military aircraft, like weight, maximum payload, role, wingspan, length, etc. The F-16 is much better in almost every way than the Mig-29. The F-15 is really an aircraft with overwhelming power. Not that it's not maneuverable.
i read somewhere a few months ago that the mig29 airframe design was better than that of F16 airframe.Which airframe is better??

barrowaj
24 Apr 05,, 21:27
i read somewhere a few months ago that the mig29 airframe design was better than that of F16 airframe.Which airframe is better??I'm not sure, but I think what you might mean is the aerodynamics. The MiG is a lifting body design which has higher aerodynamic efficiency than the F-16. AFAIK, the MiG can't tolerate quite the same *sustained* G-load that the F-16 can, but it has better acceleration and instantaneous G advantage. That's fine anyway because the off-boresight sight of the MiG would allow it to get off a shot much easier in a turning fight... if it got to that point. The real question in the fight would be the BVR and medium range combat performance, in which the F-16 would have the advantage due to AIM-120s and better avionics. But depending on the unkown real world performance of the R-77s, and western avionics upgrades, this advantage may not be that real.

I appologize for my curtness in my earlier response, but this discussion has been played out XXX number of times on this and other boards. I also didn't notice you were talking about the F-15 E, I just assumed you meant the C model.

ajaybhutani
25 Apr 05,, 21:14
I'm not sure, but I think what you might mean is the aerodynamics. The MiG is a lifting body design which has higher aerodynamic efficiency than the F-16. AFAIK, the MiG can't tolerate quite the same *sustained* G-load that the F-16 can, but it has better acceleration and instantaneous G advantage. That's fine anyway because the off-boresight sight of the MiG would allow it to get off a shot much easier in a turning fight... if it got to that point. The real question in the fight would be the BVR and medium range combat performance, in which the F-16 would have the advantage due to AIM-120s and better avionics. But depending on the unkown real world performance of the R-77s, and western avionics upgrades, this advantage may not be that real.

i was amazed by the statment


The F-16 is much better in almost every way than the Mig-29.

since he didnt even care to mention the version of the aircrafts and looked down upon Mig29 as having inferior in almost all respects.I think thats just not the case.

Bill
25 Apr 05,, 21:26
"since he didnt even care to mention the version of the aircrafts and looked down upon Mig29 as having inferior in almost all respects.I think thats just not the case."

It's certainly been the case once the missiles started flying in real combat. No F-16 has ever been lost A2A to a Mig-29, whereas the F-16 has downed many Mig-29s in it's career.

ajaybhutani
26 Apr 05,, 01:50
"since he didnt even care to mention the version of the aircrafts and looked down upon Mig29 as having inferior in almost all respects.I think thats just not the case."

It's certainly been the case once the missiles started flying in real combat. No F-16 has ever been lost A2A to a Mig-29, whereas the F-16 has downed many Mig-29s in it's career.
i think the numbers will be effected in a way in case a war breaks out today between india and paksitan. For Indian Mig29 are surely better than the Pak F16. My only point is that the comparison should be made wrt versions /specifications and not with only mentioning just mig29 and F16. as numerouse versions exist with differnt capabilities. The only set of things common to F16 all versions / Mig29 all versions will be the airframe properties engine etc.. Evthing else like avionics radars ECMS are diferent in different models. even the engine is different in F16 versions. I think its better to stick to the F16 version vomparison with some other mig29 version rather than generalizing it for F16 is better than Mig 29. Surely a statement like F16 blk 60 is better than any current version of Mig29 isnt a prob but a F16 blk 15 isnt really good nough for all Mig29s.

sniperdude411
26 Apr 05,, 03:15
The F-16's technology is way better; without advanced missles, it could still probably down a Mig. When loaded-down with weapons, the F-16 can still make tight turns.

Dima
26 Apr 05,, 04:21
"since he didnt even care to mention the version of the aircrafts and looked down upon Mig29 as having inferior in almost all respects.I think thats just not the case."

It's certainly been the case once the missiles started flying in real combat. No F-16 has ever been lost A2A to a Mig-29, whereas the F-16 has downed many Mig-29s in it's career.

well, consider that in all cases, the enym was outnumbered by Ameican forces, the American forces had significantly better intel on the situation, more support, better pilots, poorly maintained aircraft by the opponent, inferior training, no support=overwhelming victory, just makes sense

ajaybhutani
26 Apr 05,, 06:05
well, consider that in all cases, the enym was outnumbered by Ameican forces, the American forces had significantly better intel on the situation, more support, better pilots, poorly maintained aircraft by the opponent, inferior training, no support=overwhelming victory, just makes sense
all this cannot rule out that the americans made their machines better ones by putting in better technologies.Finally at the end of the day what matters is wether u win the war or not rather than wether ur machine was better or not.

Blademaster
26 Apr 05,, 06:45
"since he didnt even care to mention the version of the aircrafts and looked down upon Mig29 as having inferior in almost all respects.I think thats just not the case."

It's certainly been the case once the missiles started flying in real combat. No F-16 has ever been lost A2A to a Mig-29, whereas the F-16 has downed many Mig-29s in it's career.

Wanna make a bet when the next Indo-Pak war breaks out? I could sure use some of your hard won money. :biggrin:

Bill
26 Apr 05,, 17:32
"well, consider that in all cases, the enym was outnumbered by Ameican forces, the American forces had significantly better intel on the situation, more support, better pilots, poorly maintained aircraft by the opponent, inferior training, no support=overwhelming victory, just makes sense"

That'll likely be the case regardless of what the enemy is flying.

Bill
26 Apr 05,, 17:33
"Wanna make a bet when the next Indo-Pak war breaks out? I could sure use some of your hard won money."

Sure, i'd happily bet that the Pak F-16s can maintain a better than 1:1 kill ratio against IAF Mig-29s.

The Pak F-16 pilots are the most elite in the PAF, whereas the top Indian pilots fly the SU-30.

Blademaster
26 Apr 05,, 17:50
"Wanna make a bet when the next Indo-Pak war breaks out? I could sure use some of your hard won money."

Sure, i'd happily bet that the Pak F-16s can maintain a better than 1:1 kill ratio against IAF Mig-29s.

The Pak F-16 pilots are the most elite in the PAF, whereas the top Indian pilots fly the SU-30.


Ok how about $100 dollars?

Bill
26 Apr 05,, 18:00
Sure.

Let me know when the war starts.

lemontree
26 Apr 05,, 18:45
Sure.

Let me know when the war starts.
When the PAF F-16 sqns are full strength, and when they upgrade their T-59s, and as the US gets busy alse where. Then there will be a war, a short one though.

I will not bet on any one (IAF or PAF), especially not the three Ws...
Woman
Weather
War
Thankfully I was an infanteer, and was part of the winning effort in the fighting that has been fought thus far.

In the air every thing will depend on Early warning. That will be the key to success.

ajaybhutani
26 Apr 05,, 20:37
"Wanna make a bet when the next Indo-Pak war breaks out? I could sure use some of your hard won money."

Sure, i'd happily bet that the Pak F-16s can maintain a better than 1:1 kill ratio against IAF Mig-29s.

The Pak F-16 pilots are the most elite in the PAF, whereas the top Indian pilots fly the SU-30.
The Pak F16s dont even have BVR(while the indian Mig29s will be armed with R77.

troung
26 Apr 05,, 21:41
The Pak F16s dont even have BVR(while the indian Mig29s will be armed with R77.

You been watching the news ;)


When the PAF F-16 sqns are full strength, and when they upgrade their T-59s, and as the US gets busy alse where. Then there will be a war, a short one though.

I doubt they are that silly to openly start a war (well openly fire the first shot) knowing the sanctions we will slap on them because Pakistan fighting India has never been the reason we armed them.

sniperdude411
26 Apr 05,, 22:54
I'm sure Pakistan would start a War if John Kerry were president... He'd do ansolutely nothing because "War is bad. Very bad, and barbaric; NOTHING is worth war." a.k.a. "I'm a miserable creature."

ajaybhutani
27 Apr 05,, 03:23
I doubt they are that silly to openly start a war (well openly fire the first shot) knowing the sanctions we will slap on them because Pakistan fighting India has never been the reason we armed them.
1. With the considerable decrease in the cross border terrorism in J&K Pakistans only options run as either talking peace or else come to war(they dont have other ways of solving the dispute.). Musharraf might be managing the things quite nicely but he wont last for ever on the seat.
2. the reason why Paksitan is arming itself asking for more and more american arms is the increased indian military strength. Wether the ameircans give them to paksitan for india or not . They will be used against india as the main target.

Dima
27 Apr 05,, 04:25
you guys relaly think that there will be a war between the two nations, i just think that it's a mini-Cold War in between the two nations, as Ajay said, both sides are just arming up, maybe as a precaution, to be prepared

so, if there is a war, when do you guys think it will occur?

ajaybhutani
27 Apr 05,, 04:39
you guys relaly think that there will be a war between the two nations, i just think that it's a mini-Cold War in between the two nations, as Ajay said, both sides are just arming up, maybe as a precaution, to be prepared

so, if there is a war, when do you guys think it will occur?
rite now there are only two options war or peace table.The traditional pakistani ideas of terrorism arent working well for it. Peace is quite dependent till when musharraf remains in power. All war preprations are if musharraf falls what then?

gangsta540i
27 Apr 05,, 04:49
1. With the considerable decrease in the cross border terrorism in J&K Pakistans only options run as either talking peace or else come to war(they dont have other ways of solving the dispute.). Musharraf might be managing the things quite nicely but he wont last for ever on the seat.
2. the reason why Paksitan is arming itself asking for more and more american arms is the increased indian military strength. Wether the ameircans give them to paksitan for india or not . They will be used against india as the main target.

Totally agree ajaybhutani, and with this increased indian strength it's only natural that pakistan feels threatened and no doubt whatever they purchase it will definetely be used with india as the main target.

gangsta540i
27 Apr 05,, 05:01
In response to which is better the IAF Mig 29 and Fi6 I have to go with the Mig29. First off the pilots that fly the Mig are really good for the indian airforce, not to mention these aircraft in the indian airforce are well maintained and kept in ready to strike shape. Secondly the aircraft to my knowledge are getting upgraded not to mention the K versions that are upgraded to decrease some of the weaknesses of the Mig 29.


The Mig29M2 is also on the table from russia for 126 plane contract and these are much better planes but the Indian airforce will most definetely if not already are gonna upgrade the existing fleet to compete with it's enemies. Hopefully they make a MKI version like their bigger brother the awesome, intimidating, machine the Su30 MKI.

ajaybhutani
27 Apr 05,, 05:15
I doubt they are that silly to openly start a war (well openly fire the first shot) knowing the sanctions we will slap on them because Pakistan fighting India has never been the reason we armed them.
... they were silly nough to go for the Kargil ..

troung
27 Apr 05,, 05:40
I'm sure Pakistan would start a War if John Kerry were president... He'd do ansolutely nothing because "War is bad. Very bad, and barbaric; NOTHING is worth war." a.k.a. "I'm a miserable creature."

Um right.... :rolleyes:

Talk about writing without any point or thought....

You are 15 right?


the reason why Paksitan is arming itself asking for more and more american arms is the increased indian military strength. Wether the ameircans give them to paksitan for india or not . They will be used against india as the main target.

No doubt India is the main target but it is how they use them againist India which is important.


... they were silly nough to go for the Kargil ..

I said openly ;) they tried to hide Kargil for as long as possible.... :rolleyes:

And plus Pakistan is unlike 1999 close to the USA and I doubt Mush is that silly to ruin that for another border war. Not like we are arming them to give them an actual edge to make the risk even worth it.


In response to which is better the IAF Mig 29 and Fi6 I have to go with the Mig29. First off the pilots that fly the Mig are really good for the indian airforce, not to mention these aircraft in the indian airforce are well maintained and kept in ready to strike shape

Doesn't mean much, the best Pakistan can produce serve on their F-16s. Plus these days they are planning for a huge boost to the fleet.

ajaybhutani
27 Apr 05,, 06:19
I said openly ;) they tried to hide Kargil for as long as possible.... :rolleyes:


And plus Pakistan is unlike 1999 close to the USA and I doubt Mush is that silly to ruin that for another border war. Not like we are arming them to give them an actual edge to make the risk even worth it.

A point to note here is much was one of the minds behind kargil.He surely has become mature nough not to try it again. But what if he falls../what when he goes out of power.. The condition in balauchistan isnt good either..Pakistan isnt not stable wether its politics military militancy or freedom struggles within. The condition is very critical and if anything wrong goes in paksitan it wont happen without hurting india in a big way too.
Even the PoK might get unstable now with the improved links between J&K and PoK which will show the PoK people the sparkiling difference in the two regions.




Doesn't mean much, the best Pakistan can produce serve on their F-16s. Plus these days they are planning for a huge boost to the fleet.
Some points in Indias favour.
1. The pop of india is 6 times .So more numbers with similar talent with us.
2. What are the flight hours for PAF. vs India.(india comes in one of the highest now..).
3. IAF has a lot of experience in BVR unlike PAF.
4. As the matter of fact the IAF Mig29 is a better platform than tha PAF F16.
5. PAF F16s will see the opponents who are numercally superior.
6. In war a F16 lost by Pakistan will hurt it much more than a Mig29 lost by India.
7. The boost in the fleet is not at all much compared to the IAF plans.

hammer
27 Apr 05,, 07:09
The Pak F16s dont even have BVR(while the indian Mig29s will be armed with R77.



You been watching the news ;)


Troung I havent seen any news about US selling AIM-120C to pakistan so far. Can you give me some link that confirms it? all they have now is AIM-9's and the Chinese BVR AA missile hasnt been inducted AFAIK.



I doubt they are that silly to openly start a war (well openly fire the first shot) knowing the sanctions we will slap on them because Pakistan fighting India has never been the reason we armed them.

then you dont know Pakistan. ;)

troung
27 Apr 05,, 21:26
Troung I havent seen any news about US selling AIM-120C to pakistan so far. Can you give me some link that confirms it? all they have now is AIM-9's and the Chinese BVR AA missile hasnt been inducted AFAIK.

Well we will have to wait on it but I fail to see any hurdles with the AIM-120. Don't see us giving the PAF an offensive weapon like the AGM-88 and no way the JDAM. So me I would just say wait on it before suggesting they might not have BVR weapons, I shall do the same... :)


IAF has a lot of experience in BVR unlike PAF.

That's a given as is India's greater experience with ECM/EW.


In war a F16 lost by Pakistan will hurt it much more than a Mig29 lost by India.

That's a given being the smaller air force. Now how many F-16s they get depends on how much it will hurt them to lose some.


The boost in the fleet is not at all much compared to the IAF plans.

It doesn't overtake them yes but it is a huge boost for them. We could be talking about a 70 plane increase in the fleet which would be huge, in not only numbers but making the PAF capable of conducting more missions. It all depends on the numbers and what type of package they get.

---
Granted if I were them in the short term I would be at the boneyard buying up surplus F-16A/B ADFs, to get out some of the really old crap (A-5s), to make up for the time it would take new build models to show up, and for a morale boost to the airforce and population. ADF versions of the F-16 are actually pretty cheap (we are talking 7-10 million or less then the FC-1) and have a lot of life left. Maybe a squadron to give a total of 2 F-16 squadrons and bring them up to a common standard while still ordering the modern F-16s. That's just me.

ajaybhutani
28 Apr 05,, 00:32
Trong,
i tried to compare the Pak F16 with Indian Mig29 as of today.
For if we talk about PAksitan getting AIM 120 Indian equations will include the newer MRCA upgrades for Mig29, Phalcons ,R77PD(under development in Russia). etc etc.So i preferred to keep the future planning of PAF out of picture to see what falls more Mig29 or F16 in India vs Pak.

troung
28 Apr 05,, 00:40
i tried to compare the Pak F16 with Indian Mig29 as of today.
For if we talk about PAksitan getting AIM 120 Indian equations will include the newer MRCA upgrades for Mig29, Phalcons ,R77PD(under development in Russia). etc etc.So i preferred to keep the future planning of PAF out of picture to see what falls more Mig29 or F16 in India vs Pak.

So why discuss something boring like that.... ;)

But the topic was the Baaz vs. the F-16C/D B-50+ which is rather lopsided and I know which I would prefer flying to protect/support me...

ajaybhutani
28 Apr 05,, 00:45
So why discuss something boring like that.... ;)
by those standards even comparing the F16 blk 50/52 with current Indian Mig29 (purchased in 1990s ) is alos quite boring.We shud better go for F16 Blk 50/60 vs Mig29 M2. etc etc. for an interesting comparison.

troung
28 Apr 05,, 01:12
Well the MiG-29M, which is not in service anywhere, is even more boring to talk about.

What one gets is comparing the F-16s actual record againist MiGs marketing statements... what you get is one side betting the farm on words from MiG and the other betting the farm on F-16 results.

If you really want to compare a Pakistani F-16A/B B-15 with it's Indian counterpart one should compare it with the Mirage 2000EH/DH. Both are multi role fighters with similar enough roles. The Indian MiG-29 is an point air defense only fighter while Pakistani F-16A/B B-15s are multi role fighter. So right off the bat you can't compare the MiG-29s strike ability to an F-16A/B without looking silly. The Mirage 2000E/D and F-16A/B conduct pretty much the same operations and are very likely foes while fighting from varying weapons loads. It is rather like the old Hunter vs. F-86 thing... ;)

In fact at the way things are looking an F-16C/D B-50 vs. Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 matchup in South Asia seems far more likely then a MiG-29M vs. F-16C/D B-50 match up.

Maybe you might want to open a F-16A/B B-15 vs. Mirage 2000E/D topic... ;)

Or take the M2K5 vs. F-16C/D B-50 and turn it into a F-16A/B B-15 vs. Mirage 2000E/D thing... :)

Dima
28 Apr 05,, 04:18
rite now there are only two options war or peace table.The traditional pakistani ideas of terrorism arent working well for it. Peace is quite dependent till when musharraf remains in power. All war preprations are if musharraf falls what then?

well, i'll have to agree with Troung on this one, have you been listening to the news, Pakistani-Indian relations are the ripest in a VERY long time

OMFG, whenever i need a link, i can't find it, OMG :mad: :mad: :mad:

another positive for India is that it has A LOT more money

"What one gets is comparing the F-16s actual record againist MiGs marketing statements... what you get is one side betting the farm on words from MiG and the other betting the farm on F-16 results."

i really like the Falcon and the Fulcrum, but their record doesn't matter at all, look at the conditions that they won, really, no competition AT ALL, hey, does anyone have the air combat record between Pakistan and India, that would be really interestig to look at

well, the MiG-29M can conduct ground strikes, you might be talking about the MiG-29A

troung
28 Apr 05,, 04:45
does anyone have the air combat record between Pakistan and India, that would be really interestig to look at

Off the top of my head I think it is 1.6:1 in favor of Pakistan. Not a huge margin when one gets down it it.

In the India Pakistan conflict how the Mirage 2000 and F-16 stack up to each other in terms of not only air combat but strike/BAI, fleet numbers and mission readiness could have a more important effect then the MiG-29 "Baaz" and the F-16. Both the Mirage 2000 and F-16 serve in the same type of missions and will play major parts in both air forces.

To the topic at hand apples and green beans. The F-16C/D B-50+ is heads and tails more modern then the MiG-29 "Baaz" and is capable of conducted more types of missions over longer ranges then the "Baaz".

killer
28 Apr 05,, 06:16
The F-16's technology is way better; without advanced missles, it could still probably down a Mig. When loaded-down with weapons, the F-16 can still make tight turns.


I do notr hink you really know about the planes and just making comments fotr the sake of making it.

you cannot compare a F16 and Mig 29. unless you know all the technical details avionics used arms used etc. like Indian mig 29s are supirior to pakistani F16s . this is based on avionic and the millisles it can carry. but F16 Block 50 /block 60 are superior to indian Mig 29 . again Mig 29 M2 is supirior to F16 Block 50.

so these planes are all of same standard, only difference is on the avionics and the arms they carry.

for your information one of my friends who Fly Mig 21 repeat Mig 21 and NOT mig 29. is saying that upgraded mig 21 is superior to pakistani F16s. because mig 21 has Very good beyond visual range misiles with good upgraded avionics. which pakistani F 16 do not have.

another example is su 30 MKI and su 30 MKK. the planes are same but su 300 MKI is superior as the avionic is superior than MK 30 MKK.

so when you compare the planes , first compare the avionics and weapon systems only declare something superior..

troung
28 Apr 05,, 06:28
I do notr hink you really know about the planes and just making comments fotr the sake of making it.

A and B


like Indian mig 29s are supirior to pakistani F16s

In air combat yes. Pakistan currently does have one of the weakest F-16 fleets around (yes weaker then Thailand, Portugal, Bahrain and Singapore). For air to ground operations the PAF F-16 is far more capable then the majority (if not all) of inservice and combat ready MiG-29s.


again Mig 29 M2 is supirior to F16 Block 50.

I would wait until the MiG-29M2 does something before calling it better then anything ;)

And the two might never actually face each other. The Indian air force does seem to be leaning towards the Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 as their next MRCA and getting more on the side as well (Qatar).

Like I keep saying a better discussion would be the Mirage 2000EH/DH and F-16A/B Block 15 or the Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 and F-16C/D B-50/52. Those are more likely to face each other in South Asia from the way things are looking. That would cover more areas at the very least and not be another boring topic about air to air combat....

Aryaramnaes
28 Apr 05,, 06:34
Thank you Ajay and Troung, You guys have done justice to my question.

uss
28 Apr 05,, 06:54
hey, does anyone have the air combat record between Pakistan and India, that would be really interestig to look at


Hi, please check the following link:

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_327.shtml

Should give you a decent account of IAF kills (if you browse around a bit more, you can find PAF kills record as well). this website is pretty decent, informative and unbiased.

Also, those of you who have any doubts re Indian current MiG 29s Vs PaF F16s (current, not blk 50), please check the entry for May 1999 (Kargil episode) on the above address. Clearly shows how single MiG29 had locked on to 2 PAF F16s. IAF Mirages too had a v.good record against PAF F16s. There were no kills as PAF F16s retreated and Indians didn't pursue in order to prevent escalation of war.

Although Blk 50 F16s probly have advantage over current Indian MiG29s ( not sure of this because IAF MiG29s are not typical e.european/m.eastern MiG29As - plenty of tweaking has happened to those puppies. Whatsmore, they are due for a comprehensive upgrade perhaps with Bars 29 radar and all)

A better comparison might be the IN MiG 29Ks VS F16 blk 50.

Regards,
USS.

vishv29
28 Apr 05,, 08:32
firstly,stop overestimating F-16's.u people r i think vastly influenced by watching programmes like wings or ultimate machines on discovery which r created by americans only.ohh kill records by f-16's? against which countries???

ammm yes serbia,iraq ohhh ya mighty afganistan.

or isreli f-16' shotting down syrian mig 29's.( they too operate under awacs )

us f-16 under awacs umbrella against mighty airforces like iraq,afganistan, wow.

hey *****, what u think? if get f-16,u will become another usa?and against whome u r gonna fight? afganistan? which has no airforce,no awacs,no professional; forces? before u get ur f-16's phalcon awacs will be operational in our airforce. ur f-16's will be detected even at 100 feets from the ground. and our monsters MKI's will shot them like a flies.our pilots are now high quality coz they get more flying hours than u.off course ur poor country cannot afford so much fly hours. not to mention abt mirage2000's,mig 29's jaguars.and yes indian mig 29's are capable than any other mig 29's in the world. not to mention mig29 m2's. i m not saying that our planes are better but plz dont think pakistan can perform like usa in the war and that too against india. plzzz, it is pakistan,not america. dont make me laugh. god knows if tommorrow goes something wrong with musshy in pak thay may not even get those f-16's. afterall who had expected 9/11 even. so let f-16 join first, see what u get to arm them with,and then talk.

highsea
28 Apr 05,, 09:25
Another worthless post in a worthless thread. Keep up the good work, guys.

Sad, I remember when there was actually some decent discussion in this forum. Looks no different that PakDef these days. :mad:

Aryaramnaes
28 Apr 05,, 10:01
Guys lets not get personal here, I just wanted to know if te IAF Baaz Mig 29's were a match against the f 16 blk 50+ series, regardless of who flies them...

I was always a fan of the MiG 29, and was wondering If the IAF Baaz's were upto the excellent avionics EW suites etc the F 16's have.

Ofcourse the Baaz is better than the old Pak f 16s, they dont even have BVR.

Lets not indulge in unnecessary country bashing here, keep it cool.

Anywayz I have my answer, thanks to those who gave an objective opinion...
im more informed now :-)

ajaybhutani
28 Apr 05,, 10:31
well, i'll have to agree with Troung on this one, have you been listening to the news, Pakistani-Indian relations are the ripest in a VERY long time

I m an indian living in the heart of the capital city reading 3 newspapers a day. do u guys really think i have missed something.. ??
Pakistan is just on the taking table because its options are getting closed with kashmirs dying terrorism, the dams built in india to control their water supply.Increased american stronghold on Pakistan. Paksitan has a history of acting stupid when it comes to peace with india. Musharraf might sign a big peace treaty make leaps and bounds. But firstly hesnt an elected leader and secondly he wont last for ever. So the real test of relations will be when the mussharraf falls./steps down.I he stays for longer sentiments against him will also work against india. If he falls te new govts new agnda will very well be against india. Comeon guys paksitan hasnt yes moved even an inch on the non kashmir issues.Thy havent even given India a MFN status. A few games of cricket dsnt make enemies best frnds.
Relations were going on well with Atal and Nawaz but there are too many fools in pakistan.Musharraf might have become sane but he hasnt been able to control terrorism and unless terrorism is controlled the real peace measures will never start.Peace is miles ahead.and its just the beginning of the journey and pakistan ahs a track record of running back after tbe 100 m mark.Let it cross the 100 m mark then we will see if theres a chance (let it talk some real concessions.Talking about concessions isnt jsut good nough a signal with paksitan in picture),..

uss
28 Apr 05,, 19:56
[QUOTE=ajaybhutani] Musharraf might have become sane but he hasnt been able to control terrorism and unless terrorism is controlled the real peace measures will never start.[QUOTE]

I agree with you Ajay and take it a step further. you give too much credit to Musharraf. i hope you are right. India, I feel is playing with fire. Silly, intellectual politicians think they are on a "peace train", thier intellectual pleasantries might have disastrous results for the common man.

Expect India to trust Musharraf? Remember he was the one who conjured up the Kargil fiasco not 6 years ago. He is known for holding a grudge against india because of the 71 war.

Heck even the Pakistanis don't trust him. How can you possibly trust the leadership of a man who turned tables on his own Prime Minister after having just been promoted by him? Give the guy half a chance and he will attack india. Bhutto, sharif anyone was is fine, but this man is one dangerous chap. time and again, he has shown his intentions (Kargil, 2001 parliament attack, continuing cross border stuff, nuclear proliferation).

I'm not worried about the mullas in Pakistan getting hold of the govt., i'm concerned with a more immediate problem - gen. musharraf. Why? At least with the rabid jehadis, you know what options you have, one can take clear cut action. With this chap, you have no idea. I would be expecting to be stabbed in the back anytime, nasty feeling it is.

The U.S. is dancing a dangerous tune. they did this in the 80s by helping the ISI Vs. USSR despite India's warnings (please refer to 'Engaging India' by the former dep. secy of state, S. Talbott - makes for some v.interesting reading esp. w.reg. to Pakistan). this time the consequences could be a lot worse.

Regards,
USS.

ajaybhutani
29 Apr 05,, 01:19
Guys lets not get personal here, I just wanted to know if te IAF Baaz Mig 29's were a match against the f 16 blk 50+ series, regardless of who flies them...

I was always a fan of the MiG 29, and was wondering If the IAF Baaz's were upto the excellent avionics EW suites etc the F 16's have.

Ofcourse the Baaz is better than the old Pak f 16s, they dont even have BVR.

Lets not indulge in unnecessary country bashing here, keep it cool.

Anywayz I have my answer, thanks to those who gave an objective opinion...
im more informed now :-)
The IAF Mig29 are about to be upgraded soon. Most prob to at least what all exists in M /SMT standard or even better with indian/israeli parts. Though i still dont think it might be up to the mark for Blk 50 F16. Though i havent done a comparison yet.Will check the details when i get time.

Dima
29 Apr 05,, 04:28
thank you both Troung and USS, thank you very much, i will indeed look at those links

vishv29, take it easy, calm down, don't make an racial or anti-national statements, keep it cool, keep it mature

"I m an indian living in the heart of the capital city reading 3 newspapers a day. do u guys really think i have missed something.. ??"

that's why i hate newspapers lol, i use the web, and visit 6 websites daily regarding Russia, occassionaly, i get some news on India because they are so important to Russia

MiG-29M and SMT will be capable of attacking ground targets forties, so, because you said that America is uwilling to give Pakistan the JDAM, perhaps, the MiG-29M's will outperform the F-16's in ground attacks as well, perhaps? maybe not

ajaybhutani
29 Apr 05,, 14:04
that's why i hate newspapers lol, i use the web, and visit 6 websites daily regarding Russia, occassionaly, i get some news on India because they are so important to Russia

When i say newspapers i include their official websites in for reading too along with the printed version.. as tehre are a lot of stuff missing from either.

vishv29
29 Apr 05,, 17:09
dima friend,
u r misunderstanding me.i m not getting personal and that too against pak. i was talking abt american war devices. isnt it true that after the breakup of soviet unioun usa has not met with any potential entity? the wars they have faught against any country even with iraq of 1991,just compare the overall strength of these countries against usa.(economically,militerily,technically,intallige nce). F-16 is a good fighter, but when it comes into indo-pak senerio not us-india above four bracketed factors should also be taken into mind.

Dima
30 Apr 05,, 07:00
When i say newspapers i include their official websites in for reading too along with the printed version.. as tehre are a lot of stuff missing from either.

yea, i hate national news, it's all about international news

oh, good vishv, just sounded like you were getting mad and kind of out of control, just keep it calm, it's only a forum

no point in losing your cool like highsea everytime someone asks a simple question, it's only a forum(i don't mean that as an offence)

it is true thoguh, what you say, America has not fought anyone of comparable power since Korea, maybe even perhaps Vietnam

just4nikhilesh
28 Aug 08,, 12:30
well, consider that in all cases, the enym was outnumbered by Ameican forces, the American forces had significantly better intel on the situation, more support, better pilots, poorly maintained aircraft by the opponent, inferior training, no support=overwhelming victory, just makes sense

at cope india nidian mig 21 perform well against f 15 . and at kargil war mig 29 force pak f 16

just4nikhilesh
28 Aug 08,, 12:33
US aircraft will always be superior. I'm talking about production aircraft, not experimental. I used to be a total plane fanatic (the posters in my room still say I am, but that's not as true anymore), knowing every basic specification of all production military aircraft, like weight, maximum payload, role, wingspan, length, etc. The F-16 is much better in almost every way than the Mig-29. The F-15 is really an aircraft with overwhelming power. Not that it's not maneuverable.

I m an indian living in the heart of the capital city reading 3 newspapers a day. do u guys really think i have missed something.. ??
Pakistan is just on the taking table because its options are getting closed with kashmirs dying terrorism, the dams built in india to control their water supply.Increased american stronghold on Pakistan. Paksitan has a history of acting stupid when it comes to peace with india. Musharraf might sign a big peace treaty make leaps and bounds. But firstly hesnt an elected leader and secondly he wont last for ever. So the real test of relations will be when the mussharraf falls./steps down.I he stays for longer sentiments against him will also work against india. If he falls te new govts new agnda will very well be against india. Comeon guys paksitan hasnt yes moved even an inch on the non kashmir issues.Thy havent even given India a MFN status. A few games of cricket dsnt make enemies best frnds.
Relations were going on well with Atal and Nawaz but there are too many fools in pakistan.Musharraf might have become sane but he hasnt been able to control terrorism and unless terrorism is controlled the real peace measures will never start.Peace is miles ahead.and its just the beginning of the journey and pakistan ahs a track record of running back after tbe 100 m mark.Let it cross the 100 m mark then we will see if theres a chance (let it talk some real concessions.Talking about concessions isnt jsut good nough a signal with paksitan in picture)

sohamsri
28 Aug 08,, 15:29
How come you love restarting year old threads ? :)

Sumku
28 Aug 08,, 20:18
Correction: 3 Year Old Threads :biggrin:

bolo121
29 Aug 08,, 06:49
Come over to the light my son, lay down your black staff and no more practice dark necromancie.