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troung
04 Apr 10,, 02:42
White supremacist Eugene Terre'Blanche is hacked to death after row with farmworkers

Two suspects held over killing of South Africa's Nazi-inspired AWB leader as he slept in his bed
White supremacist Eugene Terre'Blanche is hacked to death after row with farmworkers | World news | The Observer (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/04/eugene-terreblanche-south-african-white-supremacist)
* David Smith, Johannesburg
* The Observer, Sunday 4 April 2010
* Article history

Eugene Terreblanche

Eugene Terre’Blanche waves to his supporters after he was released from prison in Potchefstroom in June 2004 after he had served part of a five-year sentence for the attempted murder of a black security guard. Photograph: Alexander Joe/AFP/Getty Images

A notorious white supremacist who once threatened to wage war rather than allow black rule in South Africa was hacked to death at his farm yesterday following an argument with two employees. Eugene Terre'Blanche's mutilated body was found on his bed along with a broad-blade knife and a wooden club, police said.

"He was hacked to death while he was taking a nap," one family friend, who did not wish to be named, told Reuters.

Local media quoted a member of Terre'Blanche's Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging party (Afrikaner Resistance Movement, or AWB) as saying that the 69-year-old had been beaten with pipes and machetes. Police said two males, thought to be workers on the farm, have been arrested and will appear in court on Tuesday.

Terre'Blanche, with striking blue eyes and white beard, was the voice of hardline opposition to the end of racial apartheid in the early 1990s, and the AWB was infamous for its swastika-like symbols and neo-Nazi anthems. But he had been in relative obscurity since his release in 2004 after a prison sentence for beating a black man nearly to death.

Last year he attempted a comeback, announcing plans to rally far-right groups and to apply to the United Nations for a breakaway Afrikaner republic.

His death comes amid heightened racial tension in South Africa, where Julius Malema, leader of the youth wing of the governing African National Congress, has caused anger by singing a struggle song with the words, "Shoot the Boer". Terre'Blanche called himself a Boer, which means farmer in Afrikaans.

Civil rights groups say that 3,000 white farmers have been killed since the end of apartheid and accuse Malema of inciting further violence against them. Last week a high court banned Malema from repeating the lyric but he did so yesterday during a visit to Zimbabwe.

Police in South Africa's North West province said last night that Terre'Blanche had been attacked and killed at his farm 10km outside Ventersdorp. Captain Adele Myburgh said Terre'Blanche was attacked by a man and a minor who worked for him after they allegedly had an argument about unpaid wages at around 6pm, the South African Press Association reported.

"Mr Terre'Blanche's body was found on the bed with facial and head injuries," Myburgh said. "There was a panga [broad-blade knife] on him and knobkerrie [wooden club] next to the bed. A 21-year-old man and 15-year-old boy were arrested and charged for his murder. The two told the police that the argument ensued because they were not paid for the work they did on the farm." She added that Terre'Blanche was alone with the two workers at the time of the attack.

The opposition Democratic Alliance expressed "outrage and concern" at Terre'Blanche's murder and cited the recent controversy triggered by Malema.

Terre'Blanche founded the white supremacist AWB in 1970, to oppose what he regarded as the liberal policies of the then South African leader, John Vorster. His party tried terrorist tactics and threatened civil war in the run-up to South Africa's first democratic elections in 1994, won by the ANC and Nelson Mandela, who became the country's first black president.

In 1998, Terre'Blanche accepted "political and moral responsibility" before South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission for a bombing campaign to disrupt the 1994 elections in which 21 people were killed and hundreds injured.

Terre'Blanche's credibility as a political leader collapsed after the anti-black threats voiced by the extreme white right proved to be little more than bluster. Revelations of his extramarital affairs also undermined his reputation with religious Afrikaners. He was jailed for assaulting a black petrol attendant and the attempted murder of a black security guard, serving three years of a five-year term before his release in 2004.

He said last year that he had revived the AWB after several years of inactivity and that it would join with like-minded forces to push for secession from South Africa. "The circumstances in the country demanded it," he told South Africa's Mail & Guardian newspaper. "The white man in South Africa is realising that his salvation lies in self-government in territories paid for by his ancestors."

Terre'Blanche said he wanted to organise a referendum for those who wanted an independent homeland, where English would be an accepted language along with Afrikaans. "It's now about the right of a nation that wants to separate itself from a unity state filled with crime, death, murder, rape, lies and fraud."

Political analysts say that white extremists have little support, but more than 21 members of the shadowy Boeremag (Boer Force) remain on trial for treason after being arrested in 2001 and accused of a bombing campaign aimed at overthrowing the government.

President Jacob Zuma, who took office in May, has courted Afrikaners at a series of meetings, assuring them they have nothing to fear from his government. Last week he visited an impoverished white community near Pretoria.

sappersgt
04 Apr 10,, 03:30
Johannesburg
Stephen Grootes

The North Gauteng High Court has ruled that ANC Youth League leader Julius Malema may not use the phrase “shoot the boer” in public.
Judge Eberhard Berltesmann said the real pest of hate speech was the effect it would have on the person it was aimed at.
He said the rights of the affected people had to come before the rights of the people who wanted to sing these songs.
However he also said this was a preliminary decision, adding the Equality Court must hear the case.
He said it was obvious the comments caused people to be worried and concern.
Malema and the ANC are likely to be furious at this decision but it is only effective until he first day of the Equality Court hearing.


I wonder what our old buddy Traps has to say about this...

TopHatter
04 Apr 10,, 04:34
I'm in tears. Really. I'm having trouble controlling my grief.

Actually I'm smirking. Sue me.

Bigfella
04 Apr 10,, 05:08
I'm in tears. Really. I'm having trouble controlling my grief.

Actually I'm smirking. Sue me.

There there TH. Don't take it so hard. At least you have the consolation that he spread joy & happiness wherever he went & will be mouned by billions for his contribution to humanity.;)

On a more serious note, I was amazed by this:


Terre'Blanche founded the white supremacist AWB in 1970, to oppose what he regarded as the liberal policies of the then South African leader, John Vorster.

I remember reading something by a Sth African writer who likened his nation to an insane asylum that became more & more detached from reality. The notion that anybody could see Vorster as liberal' would seem to support his contention.

Personally I'm surprised he lasted as long as he did. Not a great way to go, but can't say I'll be all broke up about it.

dave lukins
04 Apr 10,, 15:03
I wonder what our old buddy Traps has to say about this...



Mike hasn't posted for a while and it would be interesting to read the reactions of the Africans.

troung
04 Apr 10,, 15:23
Captain Adele Myburgh said Terre'Blanche was attacked by a man and a minor who worked for him after they allegedly had an argument about unpaid wages at around 6pm, the South African Press Association reported.

Always pay your workers.

Bigfella
04 Apr 10,, 15:41
I wonder what our old buddy Traps has to say about this...

Something like this, I suspect. :)


ANC reversing ’shoot the boer’ will test the Constitution


The African National Congress has confirmed that it will be taking legal steps to reverse the decision of the South Gauteng High Court on Thursday which granted an interdict against ANCYL leader Julius Malema singing dubula ibhunu [shoot the boer].

ANC spokesperson Jackson Mthembu issued a statement on Friday in terms whereof the ruling party confirmed it will be approaching the courts, including the Constitutional Court, in order to challenge the High Court’s ruling. It also expressed disappointment at Judge Eberhard Bertelsmann’s “lack of consideration” for the historical context of the song.

The matter has been referred to the Equality Court by Bertelsmann.

Two interest groups are confronting each other on this issue: The ANC/ANCYL, who believe that the song — regardless of how inappropriate the words may be — forms part of the country’s history and culture and the white, Afrikaner community represented by Afriforum, who say the word “boer”, in the context of the song, is derogatory and refers to farmers, whites and Afrikaners in particular.

Interestingly, certain members of the legal fraternity across racial lines have sympathy with the ANC on this issue.

This arises out of concern for the attack on South Africans’ Constitutional right to freedom of expression rather than any love for the song itself.

Professor Pierre de Vos, an expert on constitutional law, believes that the hate speech provisions which form the basis for granting the order may be unconstitutional in themselves.

“One should be careful not to endorse legislation merely because it is being used in one case against one person whom one may not like very much. It is always better to look in a principled manner at legislation and to ask whether the legislation is good or bad for our democracy and whether the legislation passes constitutional muster. This is why I believe it is important to look critically at the hate-speech provision in section 10 of the Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act (The Act).

Such a critical evaluation will reveal that there are serious questions about the constitutionality of the hate-speech provision. In fact, I suspect that the provision is unconstitutional and hope that it will be challenged by someone (Julius are you there?), so that it can be declared invalid by the Constitutional Court.” (De Vos)

The professor then sets out the basis for his assertion that the provisions may well be unconstitutional.

Those who are following the case should click on the link and take the time to read his argument.

Of course there are also other issues that come into play here.

In terms of the Bill of Rights (Chapter 2 of the Constitution), equality (Section 9) may well conflict with freedom of expression, (Section 16) in respect of this issue.

In this regard Section 9 reads as follows:

9.1 Everyone is equal before the law and has the right to equal protection and benefit of the law.

9.2 Equality includes the full and equal enjoyment of all rights and freedoms. To promote the achievement of equality, legislative and other measures designed to protect or advance persons, or categories of persons, disadvantaged by unfair discrimination may be taken.
9.3 The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth.
9.4 * No person may unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds in terms of subsection (9.3). National legislation must be enacted to prevent or prohibit unfair discrimination.
9.5 Discrimination on one or more of the grounds listed in subsection (3) is unfair unless it is established that the discrimination is fair.
Unlike the Act (see above) being too wide when regard is had to the Constitution — thus making the hate-speech provisions potentially unconstitutional — here we are dealing with two sections of the Constitution which appear to be in conflict with each other when it comes to dealing with the legality of the song.

Do the rights of the farmers to protection under the law supersede those of Malema’s to freedom of expression or vice versa?

The answer is not simply one or the other.

In practice our courts interpret legislation in order to see where certain rights begin and end, thereby giving them boundaries. In that way people are made to understand to what degree their rights extend.

In this case, to what extent the song may be sung, if at all, before it infringes on the Constitutional rights of others, if at all?

It will certainly provide for fascinating argument and enrich our democracy no end if conducted in the spirit of debate and not confrontation.

Thought Leader Michael Trapido ANC reversing 'shoot the boer' will test the Constitution (http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2010/04/02/anc-reversing-shoot-the-boer-will-test-the-constitution/)

bigross86
04 Apr 10,, 15:49
I'm not at all sorry he's dead, but I don't condone his murder. last week I posted a thread about the human rights conditions in South Africa and the farmers being murdered. This morning the guy who's trying to arrange a March for Equality sent out a message:


Another farm murder occured last night... this time it was former AWB leader Eugene Terre'blanche... he was killed with a panga (Machette) and a knobkierie (walking stick)

Now I want to make it clear that neither I or the The Equality March supported this man... he was a racist and gave white people a bad name BUT... his death is being celebrated around SA... what does this tell you about the current condition in South Africa...

It looks like the Kill the Boer song is finally taking it's Toll... We need to start standing united and fight this evil...

South Africa has unfortunately become nothing but a bastion of racism, but now it's reverse: against the whites. On official forms Chinese South Africans have been reclassified as Blacks, making them eligible for Affirmative Action, and "Africans" specifically excludes white people born in South Africa.

When Apartheid was finally abolished, the blacks claimed that they needed an Affirmative Action because the blacks, as an absolute, were uneducated and unable to perform properly in a job market. They then went and named a whole bunch of blacks (remember, the ones who are uneducated) as government ministers.

16 years into Affirmative Action, there is already a whole new generation of kids who have had the opportunity to finish 12 years of "proper" education as demanded by the blacks when Apartheid fell. The blacks are still unable to function properly in a job environment.

Moeletsi Mbeki, published a book entitled 'Architects of Poverty, in which he states that Affirmative Action and Black Economic Empowerment (BEE) policies have done nothing except create a select few wealthy black businessmen and hasn't helped the average South African blacks at all. The few who have made it big off BEE are those who are connected to the ANC, and every time another BEE deal goes through, it's the same people who benefit every time.

Many newspaper articles have been written that contend that AA and BEE are failing and hinting at corruption:

Cape Times: BEE has just shifted wealth, and not helped poor blacks (http://www.capetimes.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=332&fArticleId=2479821)
BEE's glass slipper - Mail & Guardian Online: The smart news source (http://www.mg.co.za/article/2010-02-03-bees-glass-slipper)
Business Report - Home - Motlanthe warns BEE council has failed (http://www.busrep.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=5340048)
BEE: A man-made disaster - The Perfect Storm | Moneyweb (http://www.moneyweb.co.za/mw/view/mw/en/page292679?oid=346519&sn=2009+Detail+no+image&pid=295799)

There have been calls to shut down Affirmative Action and BEE, but the ANC has done nothing except state that those attacks are racist and that the people against AA and BEE have problems with black people becoming wealthy.

Eugene Terre'blanche revived the AWB in 2008 and had rallies that drew growing crowds whom he wooed with his declaration that white South Africans are entitled to create their own country, a fight he declared he would take to the International Court at The Hague. The same exact thing that the blacks and the ANC did under Apartheid. Whether you like the guy or not, his murder is still wrong, especially when you look at the people in custody for the murder: a 21 year old and a 15 year old, both who grew up when Apartheid was abolished and blacks were given everything they needed to make it in the world.

According to the AP:


Terreblanche's killing comes amid growing disenchantment among blacks for whom the right to vote has not translated into jobs and better housing and education.

Some consider themselves betrayed by leaders governing the richest country on the continent and pursuing a policy of black empowerment that has made millionaires of a tiny black elite while millions remain trapped in poverty, even as whites continue to enjoy a privileged lifestyle.

Terreblanche recently has made statements highlighting the corruption that has ballooned under the black government.

"Our country is being run by criminals who murder and rob ... We are being oppressed again. We will rise again," he said, referring to concentration-camp conditions that killed thousands during the Boer War fought by British colonizers.

troung
04 Apr 10,, 16:23
Eugene Terre'Blanche: a petty bully but a dangerous one

Terre'Blanche was no joke, even if he was not the threat to the transition to majority rule that he imagined himself to be
Eugene Terre'Blanche: a petty bully but a dangerous one | World news | The Observer (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/04/eugene-terreblanche-bully)
* Chris McGreal
* guardian.co.uk, Sunday 4 April 2010 12.23 BST
* Article history

Eugene Terre'Blanche

Eugene Terre'Blanche. Photograph: Alexander Joe/AFP/Getty Images

It was always tempting not to take Eugene Terre'Blanche seriously. He swaggered around in a uniform that made him look like an overgrown boy scout, threatening the race war to end all race wars in defence of apartheid, but his platoons of potbellied men didn't look like they had much fight in them.

I once watched his Afrikaner Resistance Movement (AWB) demonstrate "use of the horse in a revolutionary situation" – in this case rescuing a stranded white woman and her children from the heart of a black township. Terre'Blanche began by revealing a fundamental misunderstanding about townships by asking everyone to be quiet so as not to scare the horses. The crowd deemed the show a great success but Terre'Blanche was none too pleased when I asked him how the woman got to be in the township and how on earth his men got their horses there. He stomped off. Terre'Blanche did love his horse.

The old fascist – the AWB rode under a three-pronged, swastika-inspired cross – was good at pulling off dramatic stunts, on one occasion driving an armoured car through the front of the conference centre where Nelson Mandela and FW de Klerk were negotiating over the shape of the new South Africa.

Terre'Blanche was no joke, even if he was not the threat to the transition to majority rule that he imagined himself to be. The AWB terrorised whole communities, assaulting black people with impunity. And he had one thing in common with Hitler: he exercised a powerful effect with his long appeals to Afrikaner nationalism and history.

His organisation met its Waterloo in the black homeland of Bophuthatswana, where it foolishly imagined the army of that nominally independent land would stand against the looming ANC rule. Three AWB members were killed as the organisation was sent fleeing by the soldiers it thought would do what these white men told them. But before the AWB was driven out, its members murdered scores of black people.

Terre'Blanche held a press conference the day after. He blamed other Afrikaner leaders for the failure, but it was quite apparent that his men had failed their greatest test – not only militarily but in judging the willingness of black men to fight. That day Terre'Blanche turned on me demanding to know where I was from. That it was England was bad enough. The English were the original enemy. That I worked for a liberal paper was worse. My paper fell within his very broad definition of communism.

Bophuthatswana ended the illusion of the AWB leading a white uprising but it didn't end the violence. His men set off bombs around Johannesburg at the beginning of South Africa's first free election, killing 21.

For all the idealism, the man proved to be as petty and bullying as you might expect from a small-town tyrant. When he did finally go to prison, in 2001, it was not for the big crimes (he folded and confessed to those and got amnesty from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission) but for beating up a petrol station attendant and attempting to murder a security guard.

Terre'Blanche found himself one of the few white faces in an overwhelmingly black prison. One of dozens of cell mates during the AWB leader's first night in prison described how Terre'Blanche spent the night wide awake, handing over cigarettes. In prison he became a born-again Christian and claimed to have moderated his views on black people. But on his release he tried to relaunch the AWB. He claimed there was a popular clamour. But this time it was a joke.

Chris McGreal was the Guardian's Africa correspondent from 1994 to 2002

Bigfella
04 Apr 10,, 16:49
Just a few points BR



South Africa has unfortunately become nothing but a bastion of racism, but now it's reverse: against the whites. On official forms Chinese South Africans have been reclassified as Blacks, making them eligible for Affirmative Action, and "Africans" specifically excludes white people born in South Africa.

It has been a bastion of racism for as long as it has existed. Whites still have more rights & better lives than they offered blacks under apartheid. Also remember that there was 90+ years of 'affirmative action' for whites, the current version is uber mild by comparison.


When Apartheid was finally abolished, the blacks claimed that they needed an Affirmative Action because the blacks, as an absolute, were uneducated and unable to perform properly in a job market. They then went and named a whole bunch of blacks (remember, the ones who are uneducated) as government ministers.

No, some blacks and 'coloured' (including Indians) did get educations either at home or abroad. Some were even able to get university educations (Mandela was a lawyer, remember?). You can check, but I'm guessing most of those ministers (not all of whom were black) are at least as well educated as most contributors to this forum. The problem is that the vast majority of blacks did recieved an inferior education under Apartheid.


16 years into Affirmative Action, there is already a whole new generation of kids who have had the opportunity to finish 12 years of "proper" education as demanded by the blacks when Apartheid fell. The blacks are still unable to function properly in a job environment.

What, all of them? (think about how you feel when people refer to 'the jews' in an undifferentianted fashion)


Moeletsi Mbeki, published a book entitled 'Architects of Poverty, in which he states that Affirmative Action and Black Economic Empowerment (BEE) policies have done nothing except create a select few wealthy black businessmen and hasn't helped the average South African blacks at all. The few who have made it big off BEE are those who are connected to the ANC, and every time another BEE deal goes through, it's the same people who benefit every time.

He is most likely correct. What alternative policies will help the average poor black?


There have been calls to shut down Affirmative Action and BEE, but the ANC has done nothing except state that those attacks are racist and that the people against AA and BEE have problems with black people becoming wealthy.

it is possible that both sidea are correct, though I imagine many/most of the critics are wel motivated.


Eugene Terre'blanche revived the AWB in 2008 and had rallies that drew growing crowds whom he wooed with his declaration that white South Africans are entitled to create their own country, a fight he declared he would take to the International Court at The Hague. The same exact thing that the blacks and the ANC did under Apartheid.

Those white Sth Africans who wanted an independent nation had 90 odd years in which to establish their 'own' country. They did, it was just that it was 90% black and only capable of holding together with the use & threat of violence. They thought they could maintain this indefinately. They were wrong. Even if you just want to focus on Terrblanche's people (Afrikaners) they ran the nation for over 40 years, most of it during the period of decolonization in Africa. They could have attempted to form a territorially delineated 'white' nation, stocked up on weapons & dug in. In theory it is no more ridicuous than Israel's survival, and the odds were probably better.

National independence is a funny thing, however - there is nothing inevitable about it. Sometimes there is a window & it closes. Sometimes you take your chance, sometimes you miss it. Thanks to an accident of colonial administration Laos is a nation despite there being more Lao in Thailand. Thanks to the fallout from a war in which it sided with a nation that wanted to keep it as a province Montenegeo is a nation, yet barely half its population are actually Montenegrin. Kurdistan will most likely never be a nation, though its people have as much right to nationhood as any of the above and more.

Had Afrikaners really wanted to re-establish an independent nation they might well have been able to do it. Instead they preferred the forceful rule not only of other races, but of other whites who disagreed with their vision. Having missed that chance I have serious doubts that they will get another. Wrong side of history.


Whether you like the guy or not, his murder is still wrong, especially when you look at the people in custody for the murder: a 21 year old and a 15 year old, both who grew up when Apartheid was abolished and blacks were given everything they needed to make it in the world.

Have blacks really been given everything they needed? Health, housing, infrastructure, education, land? Even if the money was spent properly, do you honestly believe that generations of inequity get reversed in less than one generation? Come on BR. I know you are smarter than that.



According to the AP:

Terreblanche's killing comes amid growing disenchantment among blacks for whom the right to vote has not translated into jobs and better housing and education.

Some consider themselves betrayed by leaders governing the richest country on the continent and pursuing a policy of black empowerment that has made millionaires of a tiny black elite while millions remain trapped in poverty, even as whites continue to enjoy a privileged lifestyle.

Terreblanche recently has made statements highlighting the corruption that has ballooned under the black government.

"Our country is being run by criminals who murder and rob ... We are being oppressed again. We will rise again," he said, referring to concentration-camp conditions that killed thousands during the Boer War fought by British colonize

This little bit from AP is disingenuous at best. Mixing in genuine concerns about corruption with those of Terreblanche misrepresents both. Terreblanche's problem isn't 'corruption', its 'black government'. You'll note that when he talked about previous 'oppression' he was referrring to events that took place over 100 years ago, not Apartheid. There are genuine concerns about the way the ANC governs, but to intertwine them with the concerns of a man who took to arms to prevent black rule is to hopelessly muddy the situation.

Mihais
04 Apr 10,, 19:14
It has been a bastion of racism for as long as it has existed. Whites still have more rights & better lives than they offered blacks under apartheid. Also remember that there was 90+ years of 'affirmative action' for whites, the current version is uber mild by comparison.

The key word is ''still''.With the mention that all is going rapidly downhill.Zimbabwe style.As for ''uber mild'' part,tell that to white victims.An indirect,but palpable result of the new government inefficiency.Not to mention proeminent ANC leaders calls for mass murder.And the threats of ''uhuru'' the day Mandela buys the farm(pun intended).



What, all of them? (think about how you feel when people refer to 'the jews' in an undifferentianted fashion)

Personally I'm a bit tired of hearing this point repeated all over again.It's not about all X are Y.It's just about 50%+1 X are Y.But if you prefer to write long phrases...




He is most likely correct. What alternative policies will help the average poor black?

Educate the poor wretch before making racism a state policy in a country that supposedly denounced it's racist past.Even Communists kept parts of the old elites enough years until their people went through school.That's about 15 years.



Those white Sth Africans who wanted an independent nation had 90 odd years in which to establish their 'own' country. They did, it was just that it was 90% black and only capable of holding together with the use & threat of violence. They thought they could maintain this indefinately. They were wrong. Even if you just want to focus on Terrblanche's people (Afrikaners) they ran the nation for over 40 years, most of it during the period of decolonization in Africa. They could have attempted to form a territorially delineated 'white' nation, stocked up on weapons & dug in. In theory it is no more ridicuous than Israel's survival, and the odds were probably better.
Had Afrikaners really wanted to re-establish an independent nation they might well have been able to do it. Instead they preferred the forceful rule not only of other races, but of other whites who disagreed with their vision. Having missed that chance I have serious doubts that they will get another. Wrong side of history.
The only people on the wrong side of history will be those looking at the business end of a rifle.Unlike other places in Africa,the S-Africans whites are there for 400 years.It is their country as much as the black's and from many pov's even more.They are also the most numerous .I doubt they will go in the dark as silently as those from other countries.



Have blacks really been given everything they needed? Health, housing, infrastructure, education, land? Even if the money was spent properly, do you honestly believe that generations of inequity get reversed in less than one generation? Come on BR. I know you are smarter than that.

Key word ''given''.Btw,no one gave the Boers squat.They had to build it.Perhaps that's the big problem of Africa.And they were given land(former white owned farms).It took 1-2 years to make prosperous lands the newest deserts of planet Earth(all machinery was sold for pennies or as scraped iron).You do need higher education to reason that you need to work your a$$ on the farm in order to produce:rolleyes: .Generally speaking they were given the sole decent country in sub-Saharan Africa.It won't take a generation to ruin it fully the way things are moving.And once you start going downhill,is a hellish task to stop the decline.ANC mistake no. 1 was that those educated among them did nothing to build a solid foundation.I guess they didn't really understood how a modern nation is supposed to function.They were and still are a bunch of populists and demagogues.Heck,it worked for every ex-colony black ''elite'' why not for SA?





This little bit from AP is disingenuous at best. Mixing in genuine concerns about corruption with those of Terreblanche misrepresents both. Terreblanche's problem isn't 'corruption', its 'black government'. You'll note that when he talked about previous 'oppression' he was referrring to events that took place over 100 years ago, not Apartheid. There are genuine concerns about the way the ANC governs, but to intertwine them with the concerns of a man who took to arms to prevent black rule is to hopelessly muddy the situation.

I politely ask you to show me a ''black'' government that isn't a tragic mess.So I don't give a damn who this Terreblanche(btw,is this his real name or a nom de guerre?)was or what he did(not much really,from what I read-btw,same things Mandela did in his younger days).He had a genuine and legitimate concern.

Now,my concern.I often read stuff like ''yeah,payback is a biatch''.The ''racist,fascist etc.. whites asked for it''.As if a wrong done decades ago is an excuse for even greater wrongs today(IIRC,the evil whites didn't collected body parts for witchcraft,among many others ''nice'' developments).My rhetorical question for all the protesters during the Apertheid is this-are you getting old,or you care only about blacks?Not really expecting an answer,but who knows...

Traps
04 Apr 10,, 19:25
We live in interesting times in South Africa.

What you are reading is from my columns for a South African national.

I am now editor and part owner of another baby national which we launched on Thursday :

AWB style Terre'Blanche murder as ?declaration of war? : NewsTime (http://www.newstime.co.za/rs_main.asp)

Hope you'll all come visit. :)

sappersgt
04 Apr 10,, 19:35
by Bigfella
The problem is that the vast majority of blacks did recieved an inferior education under Apartheid.

Even if the money was spent properly, do you honestly believe that generations of inequity get reversed in less than one generation?

IMO the real unfortunate legacy of Apartheid. The lack of education and subsequent shortage of qualifed (black) people. This by itself almost guaranteed to prolong the problem. The question is what can be done about it and will politics get in the way.







They did, it was just that it was 90% black and only capable of holding together with the use & threat of violence.

More like 75% in the 80's, 15% white and 10% "colored" (compared to almost 95% of Rhodesia), demographics HAVE changed but it really doesn't matter, the point is the same. I found it interesting that most of the South Africans I talked to at the time said that Apartheid couldn't last. It was the fear of the unknown future that was the most concern. I got my ex wife and children out of South Africa when the crime rates started going through the roof and my in laws were killed.


They could have attempted to form a territorially delineated 'white' nation, stocked up on weapons & dug in. In theory it is no more ridiculous than Israel's survival, and the odds were probably better.

Had Afrikaners really wanted to re-establish an independent nation they might well have been able to do it. Instead they preferred the forceful rule not only of other races, but of other whites who disagreed with their vision.

I remember telling some IDF officers the Afrikaners considered themselves "God's chosen people surrounded by gentiles". I got more than a few understanding nods.

Do really think they could've made go of separate nation states? The Afrikaners kept trying unsuccessfully to do just that for a couple of hundred years. Hence the Orange Free State, etc. I suppose it could have been possible along the lines of Lesotho and Swaziland. I just didn't see it happening, maybe a different mindset. To me it would be like having the USA, CSA, Republic of Texas, and California occupying North America.

Bigfella
05 Apr 10,, 01:52
Personally I'm a bit tired of hearing this point repeated all over again.It's not about all X are Y.It's just about 50%+1 X are Y.But if you prefer to write long phrases...

Personally I'm not much fussed that you are tired. I've made the same response to people who have written 'the Jews' or 'the muslims' & would do the same for people using other such undifferentiated language. The intent may not be malicious, but the form of expression has a history that is. I don't think for a moment that BR was trying to be prejudiced, but in the context of a potentially delicate discussion about race its best not to use ambiguous phraseology.

As for 'prefering to write a long phrase', if you are too lazy to use the one more letter required to replace 'the' with 'many' or 'most' then I'll draw my own conclusions. The fact that you have decided to make such an issue of it sort of confirms what I already thought.

Bigfella
05 Apr 10,, 02:31
IMO the real unfortunate legacy of Apartheid. The lack of education and subsequent shortage of qualifed (black) people. This by itself almost guaranteed to prolong the problem. The question is what can be done about it and will politics get in the way.

Agreed. White minority rule set up whatever followed for failure by creating such a wildly unbalanced society. The simple answer is education & opportunity - the difficulty is actually achieveing both. As for politics getting in the way, inevitably it will. Did before, will now. The real question will be - is doing 'X' poorly better than not doing it at all. Don't have any easy answers.


More like 75% in the 80's, 15% white and 10% "colored" (compared to almost 95% of Rhodesia), demographics HAVE changed but it really doesn't matter, the point is the same. I found it interesting that most of the South Africans I talked to at the time said that Apartheid couldn't last. It was the fear of the unknown future that was the most concern.

Apologies, I didn't really think - just translated 'non-white' into 'black'. I actually did know better, just got lazy. I was fascinated to read a few years back that even as it became clear this would all come to an end support for the National Party actually increased. The explanation was that the 'laager' mentality became a way of avoiding a reality that many knew was approaching at speed.


I got my ex wife and children out of South Africa when the crime rates started going through the roof and my in laws were killed.

Would most likely have done the same.


I remember telling some IDF officers the Afrikaners considered themselves "God's chosen people surrounded by gentiles". I got more than a few understanding nods.

I was actually thinking something similar. They remind me of nothing so much as the religious setters on the West Bank, but without any of the powerful friends.


Do really think they could've made go of separate nation states? The Afrikaners kept trying unsuccessfully to do just that for a couple of hundred years. Hence the Orange Free State, etc. I suppose it could have been possible along the lines of Lesotho and Swaziland. I just didn't see it happening, maybe a different mindset. To me it would be like having the USA, CSA, Republic of Texas, and California occupying North America.

I don't really know SapperS, but it doesn't seem any more ridiculous than what they DID decide to do - try to rule a nation where at least 90% of the population didn't want them in charge (I'm talking Afrikaners now, so I think my 90% probably holds good for most of the post-'48 period). Thinking theoretically: a significant number of Afrikaners including many of those governing the Union & in the military pushe to re-establish a single boer republic including bits of the old Transvaal & Free State & probably enough of Natal to give sea access; they do some 'land swaps' with blacks to ensure themselves a demographic majority; Set up their dream racial paradise, arm themselves to the teeth & leave the rest of Sth Africa in the hands of the remaining whites (perhaps majority 'english'). Sure it sounds a bit outlandish, but stranger things have happened (and some would argue did). it is certainly no more absurd (and probably more practical) than trying to establish an Afrikaner 'homeland' now.

I'm not really sure if trying to recreate a new version of the boer republics would have worked, but in theory the opportunity existed. In reality I think that the majority of Afrikaners actually gave the 'English' their final victory by buying into the Union of SA more or less whole. Obviously the divide between those in the cities/on the land & those in the old republics/Cape boers & those further afield meant that there was no single 'Afrikaner' perspective. But I think the truth is that the majority convinced themselves that there was no longer a need to revive the old dream of the republics because they could create that dream on a much larger scale. They were fatally wrong. I doubt that history will give them another chance.

Mihais
05 Apr 10,, 06:38
IMO the real unfortunate legacy of Apartheid. The lack of education and subsequent shortage of qualifed (black) people. This by itself almost guaranteed to prolong the problem. The question is what can be done about it and will politics get in the way.

Cannot help to notice that this is the PROBLEM for all sub-Saharan Africa.
Sarge,if something interested me in SA history was the military part.The Voortrekkers,the Boer Wars and the Angolan one have a soft spot in my soul.The other aspects I got aquainted were sort of by default,so I may be lacking in some areas.My question for you is how the Black elites saw the problem in the last years of the Apartheid?They must have been aware of it.Because it is now fairly clear that the fears of the White community(at least most of them) came to life and that the transition was to rough.

Speaking of the breaking of the country,I think this will not come nice and easy.The ruling class won't let go the goose that lays the golden eggs.And they're also very useful as scapegoat.A win-win for them.

Mihais
05 Apr 10,, 06:58
Personally I'm not much fussed that you are tired. I've made the same response to people who have written 'the Jews' or 'the muslims' & would do the same for people using other such undifferentiated language. The intent may not be malicious, but the form of expression has a history that is. I don't think for a moment that BR was trying to be prejudiced, but in the context of a potentially delicate discussion about race its best not to use ambiguous phraseology.

As for 'prefering to write a long phrase', if you are too lazy to use the one more letter required to replace 'the' with 'many' or 'most' then I'll draw my own conclusions. The fact that you have decided to make such an issue of it sort of confirms what I already thought.

You are correct that such language is not the most suited for the public arena.But here is a private one and people here are generally on the right side of the IQ bell curve.People do understand the nuances of such general statements as the (fill the blank).But this is a trivial matter and no point continuing the argument.
I remember I have to ask you about your thoughts(as opposed to guessing).And since I'm curious by nature,I'm asking you to let go the cannonballs.Btw,in asking you this I'm considering you higher than my GF's.I usually don't care what they think of me(that time will come,but not just yet).:tongue:

After that we'll go back to SA,since it is a more interesting subject.Best regards.

Bigfella
05 Apr 10,, 09:00
[QUOTE]You are correct that such language is not the most suited for the public arena.But here is a private one and people here are generally on the right side of the IQ bell curve.People do understand the nuances of such general statements as the (fill the blank).

I felt that there were a number of statements in the original post that were factually questionable or poorly expressed & I said so. I respect BR & he took it in good spirit. SapperS felt that I had similarly made statements that required question or correction & I took it in good spirit. No harm no foul.


But this is a trivial matter and no point continuing the argument.

Agreed


After that we'll go back to SA,since it is a more interesting subject.

Agreed.

bolo121
05 Apr 10,, 09:17
Speaking of SA and the lack of qualified blacks, my Dad has done quite a few projects there.
The way you did business was, before you could start work on a factory you went to a local black chief, he would tell you how many workers of which tribe/community to hire and then take a payment on their behalf. So on the day work was to start, a bunch of black labourers show up, get free food and beer while the Indian contractor firm with all sorts of mechanical equipment did the actual work.

troung
05 Apr 10,, 16:02
Mom: Son helped kill SAfrican white supremacist
By THOMAS PHAKANE and MICHELLE FAUL, Associated Press Writers Thomas Phakane And Michelle Faul, Associated Press Writers 19 mins ago

VENTERSDORP, South Africa – The mother of a 15-year-old murder suspect said Monday that her son struck a notorious white supremacist leader with an iron rod after the farmer refused to pay him, a slaying that heightens racial tensions as South Africa prepares to host the World Cup.

"My son admitted that they did the killing," the mother said in an exclusive interview with AP Television News conducted in the Tswana language from her two-room cement home in Tshing township on the outskirts of Ventersdorp town.

She said she spoke to the teenager at Ventersdorp police station on Saturday after he turned himself in along with his alleged accomplice, a 28-year-old farm worker, following the slaying of Eugene Terreblanche.

Police have refused to identify either of the suspects by name. Under South African law, a minor accused of any charge cannot be identified without permission from a judge. The two have been charged with murder and will appear in court Tuesday, police said.

Officials appear anxious to show they are swiftly handling the crime, which comes just 10 weeks before South Africa becomes the first African nation to host the World Cup soccer tournament.

Terreblanche's slaying also comes at a time of heightened racial tension in this country once ruled by a racist white regime that only gave way to democratic rule in 1994 after years of state-sponsored violence and urban guerrilla warfare waged by the now-governing African National Congress.

Members of Terreblanche's Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging movement, better known as the AWB, have blamed African National Congress Youth Leader Julius Malema, saying he spread hate speech that led to Terreblanche's killing.

Malema incited controversy last month when he led college students in a song that includes the lyrics "kill the Boer." Boer means farmer in Afrikaans, the language of descendants of early Dutch settlers, but also is used as a derogatory term for whites.

The song sparked a legal battle in which the ruling ANC party challenged a high court that ruled the lyrics as unconstitutional. The ANC insists the song is a valuable part of its cultural heritage and that the lyrics — which also refer to the farmers as thieves and rapists — are not intended literally and are therefore not hate speech.

"The death of Terreblanche has got nothing to do with the song. We know who Terreblanche was, his character and how he related with his workers. So the police must investigate and look out for the person who killed him," Malema said Monday while on a visit to neighboring Zimbabwe.

Terreblanche had previously been convicted for a brutal attack on two black farm workers and was sentenced to six years in prison.

At the farm Monday, a big grader was being used to dig a hole for Terreblanche in the family graveyard, where he is to be buried after a church service in Ventersdorp on Friday.

"This was such an unnecessary thing," Terreblanche's brother, Andries, told the AP, as he sat on a gray marble grave. "We are not racists, we just believe in purity of race."

Masked AWB "storm troopers" in black or khaki uniforms terrorized blacks in the years leading up to majority rule. AWB's members still seek to create an all-white republic within mostly black South Africa. The group's red, white and black insignia resembles a Nazi swastika, but with three prongs instead of four.

The movement always has been on the fringes, estimated to have no more than 70,000 member at its height in the early 1990s out of a population of nearly 50 million.

The group's leaders have been using Terreblanche's killing as a rallying point for their cause, with Secretary-General Andre Visagie claiming Sunday that Terreblanche's brutal death was "a declaration of war" by blacks against whites. He also warned countries against sending their soccer teams without protection to "a land of murder."

The mother of the 15-year-old suspect, however, said Terreblanche was slain over a wage dispute. She said that when her son and his co-worker asked Terreblanche for their money, he told them first to bring in the cows. After they had brought in the cows they again asked for their money, which he then refused to give them.

"He said that the (laborer) man told him to wait while he went to the storeroom. He came back with an iron rod. He started hitting Terreblanche, with four blows to the head. Then my son says he took the iron rod and hit him with three blows," the mother said.

"My son was a person who doesn't like to be in trouble," she said softly, appearing a bit bewildered and scared.

Visagie said the 15-year-old suspect was a casual worker and that the 28-year-old man was a full-time employee who had been taking care of the garden of the family home in Ventersdorp. Terreblanche, 69, had been spending most of his time there since he had heart surgery a few weeks ago.

Police said Terreblanche was lying on his bed when he was attacked between 5 and 6 p.m. on Saturday.

The mother's account that there was only one murder weapon — an iron rod — did not fit police reports that a machete and a wooden staff with a rounded head were the murder instruments found at the scene.

Visagie said Terreblanche was bludgeoned so badly he was barely recognizable and described a gory murder scene indicative of great rage when he visited the farm on Sunday.

"There was blood all over the place, pools on the mattress, the pillow, the floor and splatters on the walls and ceiling," he said.

___

Faul reported from Johannesburg. Associated Press writers Carl Ndaba and Schalk van Zuydam in Ventersdorp, South Africa and Chengetai Zvauya in Harare, Zimbabwe contributed to this report.
Copyright © 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.

Mihais
05 Apr 10,, 16:22
Can't say that I'm thrilled by a marvelous article.Confusing story.The mother probably wasn't told the truth by her little treasure(turned criminal).And I wouldn't expect the AWB to get much traction among blacks.70000 out of 5 millions is still a small number,but out of 50 millions... The only good part is that the farm murders in S-A get a bit of publicity.
Now,is it forbidden to hire white workers under the BEE or similar laws?Because what I notice in this case as well as in other murders is that blacks hired at a farm for a significant period of time are(in many cases)the suspected or actual criminals.And frankly it doesn't suit the image of a big supremacist (or separatist,or whatever the late Mr. Terreblanche considered himself to be)to hire blacks,when poor whites are plenty.

rj1
05 Apr 10,, 19:27
IMO the real unfortunate legacy of Apartheid. The lack of education and subsequent shortage of qualifed (black) people. This by itself almost guaranteed to prolong the problem. The question is what can be done about it and will politics get in the way.

Of course politics will get in the way. Has anything from the last 20 years in sub-Saharan Africa given you any hope? Zimbabwe was once the best-educated and one of the most affluent African states and look what it got turned into. A guy in Kenya, another relatively well-off country considering the area, feared he was going to lose an election, brought ethnicity into it (not white vs. black, but one black ethnic group vs. another) and people started hacking and burning.

South Africa's main problem going forward for development is only one party has a chance at winning an election, and corruption has taken root in a massive way.


Do really think they could've made go of separate nation states? The Afrikaners kept trying unsuccessfully to do just that for a couple of hundred years. Hence the Orange Free State, etc. I suppose it could have been possible along the lines of Lesotho and Swaziland. I just didn't see it happening, maybe a different mindset. To me it would be like having the USA, CSA, Republic of Texas, and California occupying North America.

Not a good analogy in my view. Culturally the U.S. could easily be split into about nine countries (although save California, the American Southwest with Hispanics, Alaska, Hawaii, the South with a much larger black population than the rest of the country, and various Native American pockets we're pretty much ethnically similar), not to mention that is essentially what happened to central and eastern Europe in 20th century: minority felt oppressed over time, they were given their own state, either by Wilson at Versailles once Austria-Hungary got disintegrated, post-World War II, or Balkanization. South Africa from an ethnic standpoint is pretty much an Austria-Hungary/Yugoslavia. Don't they have something like 10 official languages?

Bigfella
05 Apr 10,, 22:03
"This was such an unnecessary thing," Terreblanche's brother, Andries, told the AP, as he sat on a gray marble grave. "We are not racists, we just believe in purity of race."

No, not remotely racist.

sappersgt
05 Apr 10,, 22:52
by Mihais
Sarge,if something interested me in SA history was the military part.The Voortrekkers,the Boer Wars and the Angolan one have a soft spot in my soul.

I'm with you on this one. I came to believe that South Africa is truly God's country. You have to admire the people, I was proud to be a member of their military elite.


My question for you is how the Black elites saw the problem in the last years of the Apartheid?

I think they saw the end was inevitable. I can't say much about the leaders but in the rural countryside, where I spent most of my time, we didn't have any problems garnering black support against the various Marxist "liberation" movements. In the battle for hearts and minds the idea of Marxism seemed to be repellent to most rural (black) people. The locals gladly sent runners to our base to warn us whenever terrs crossed the border. For me it was not a war for Apartheid but a war against Marxism.

The current leaders of course owe their current positions to the democratic process, however flawed it might be. I guess you could say on that basis we were successful in our endeavors.


by Bigfella
SapperS felt that I had similarly made statements that required question or correction & I took it in good spirit.

It was a minor issue and I didn;t think it detracted from your point, of a small minority ruling the counrty.

The only place it might be important would be to illustrate the tribalism typical of Africa. In this case it it wouldn't necessarily one white against nine blacks, more like one white versus three Zulus or one white vs two Xhosa. Without this factionalism, still evident all over Africa, Apartheid would have never been possible.

bigross86
06 Apr 10,, 02:35
It's funny. I've got lots of friends here who are South African, they almost all say thank god that Terre'Blanche is dead. But each and every time with each and every person I spoke to, the conversation immediately segued into how bad it is in South Africa, and how bad the black problem is. And each and every one of them was in South Africa in the last half a year, one of them for 8 months, part of it doing a gamekeeper's course in the Kruger National Park

Even my future step-dad (also a South African) had something to say about Terre'Blance, but apparently on a slightly more personal level. Apparently my future step-dad is one of those that designed the 1992 Barcelona South Africa Interim Olympic Flag, and Terre'Blanche threatened to hunt him down and cause him bodily pain for completely disregarding the current flag and for not having any mention of the Sprinkbok. Fortunately Terre'Blanche though my future step-dad was an Arab (he had a Hebrew name, but it could be an Arab name as well. He now goes by his English name instead of the Hebrew one) and went into the Muslim neighborhood to try and find him. No one really knows if he did end up finding someone by that same name...

rj1
06 Apr 10,, 13:16
It's funny. I've got lots of friends here who are South African, they almost all say thank god that Terre'Blanche is dead. But each and every time with each and every person I spoke to, the conversation immediately segued into how bad it is in South Africa, and how bad the black problem is. And each and every one of them was in South Africa in the last half a year, one of them for 8 months, part of it doing a gamekeeper's course in the Kruger National Park...

Well it can all come to a head if a tourist gets killed during the World Cup this summer.

bigross86
06 Apr 10,, 13:27
That's another thing, AP reports that there are still thousands of tickets available, 2 months before it starts.

Bigfella
06 Apr 10,, 14:46
Even my future step-dad (also a South African) had something to say about Terre'Blance, but apparently on a slightly more personal level. Apparently my future step-dad is one of those that designed the 1992 Barcelona South Africa Interim Olympic Flag, and Terre'Blanche threatened to hunt him down and cause him bodily pain for completely disregarding the current flag and for not having any mention of the Sprinkbok. Fortunately Terre'Blanche though my future step-dad was an Arab (he had a Hebrew name, but it could be an Arab name as well. He now goes by his English name instead of the Hebrew one) and went into the Muslim neighborhood to try and find him. No one really knows if he did end up finding someone by that same name...

Fortunately for your future step dad ETB wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed. Especially fortunate because he was undoubtedly a vicious & violent man. Below is an account of the AWB's most violent adventure. ETB's stupidity got his own men killed, while their racism & brutality exacted a much higher toll. It is worth a read, if only for a peek into the slightly surreal world that was the Sth Africa of the early 90s.

I actually recall the killing of the 3 AWB guys. I recall what a remarkable turn of events it was to see a uniformed black man execute armed Afrikaners & how powerful it was to hear the words 'what are you doing in my country?'. An era was rapidly ending.


Background

Negotiations to end apartheid in South Africa

In 1990 South African State President F.W. de Klerk began negotiations to end apartheid, unbanning the African National Congress and releasing Nelson Mandela from prison. This led to a growth in support for far-right parties among the ruling Afrikaner minority, some of whom opposed the end of apartheid and joined organisations such as the AWB and AVF. The negotiators at the World Trade Centre in Kempton Park, Johannesburg, agreed on 27 April 1994 as the date for the first election allowing all of South Africa's citizens to vote. It was clear that the ANC would win these elections.

Bophuthatswana homeland

Bophuthatswana was one of several nominally independent homelands in which blacks had to live under apartheid. At the time the leader was Lucas Mangope, an aging and autocratic leader.

Mangope had made clear at the 1993 Kempton Park negotiations that Bophuthatswana would remain independent of the new and integrated South Africa and that he would not allow the upcoming multiracial elections to take place in his country. This led to increasing opposition from the citizens of Bophuthatswana. Mangope had previously used his Defence Force and Police to suppress protests, and had been accused of police brutality when a student protest was suppressed by his police force.

Civil service strike

In February 1994, a Crisis Commission was held when heads of 52 government departments had gone on strike. This caused almost the entire Bophuthatswana public services to collapse, including the Health Service, because nursing staff were striking. 30,000 teachers went on strike.

Mangope's Defence Force and Police were on the brink of mutiny because many of them were in favour of re-integration into a democratic South Africa. The forces had been abused by the people, physically and verbally, had their homes and families attacked and found it increasingly hard to remain loyal to Mangope. Mangope refused to relent on his policy of keeping Bophuthatswana independent. By this stage widespread rioting and looting broke out, including the burning of the Mega City shopping mall in Mmabatho. Mangope decided to call on outside forces to restore order.

On Tuesday 8 March 1994 Mangope invited General Constand Viljoen, then head of the right-wing, Afrikaner Volksfront, to a meeting of the heads of the Bophuthatswana Defence Force, Police, National Intelligence Service and Cabinet Ministers.

It was concluded that Viljoen would use militiamen to defend certain government locations in Bophuthatswana if the situation deteriorated. On the following Tuesday, March 15, the Bophuthatswana parliament was planning to meet to discuss, again, the possibility of re-integration. However if necessary he would call on Viljoen sooner because the scheduled ANC invasion[citation needed] was planned for the weekend of March 12 - March 13. Yet Mangope made it clear that he would not tolerate the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging being present because they were regarded as racist and over-violent. Viljoen was regarded as a more moderate right-wing leader, and was respected as the former head of both the South African Army (from 1976-1980) and the entire South African Defence Force (1980-1985).

The invasion and AWB involvement

By Thursday March 10 the situation had severely deteriorated and Mangope was advised to leave Bophuthatswana for his own safety. He left via personal helicopter at 2 p.m. that day and returned to his tribal homeland of Motswedi.

Later on that afternoon a group of anti-Mangope policemen took a memorandum to the Bophuthatswana embassy to South Africa and gave it to the ambassador, Professor Tjaart van der Walt, calling for Bophuthatswana to be re-integrated into South Africa, against Mangope's orders. By late afternoon virtually all policing in Bophuthatswana had ended. Only the Defence Force remained to maintain order.

Following another group of policemen joining student protests and reports of ANC troops[citation needed] on the Bophuthatswana borders Mangope asked Viljoen and the Afrikaner Volksfront to keep order in Bophuthatswana.

The AVF were hastily rallied and mobilised, under the command of retired SA Colonel J. Breytenbach. It was, however, under the command of Commandant Douw Steyn that they were escorted by the Bophuthatswana Defence Force to an Air Force base on the outskirts of Mmabatho, early on Friday March 11, 1994.

Meanwhile both the AWB and SA Defence Force had been mobilising and moving in, the SA Defence Force to protect their embassy and the lives and interests of any South African nationals in the area. The majority of the AWB forces had been called in from the towns of Ventersdorp (the AWB's headquarters), Witbank and Rustenburg in the Western Transvaal, and other places, such as Naboomspruit.

While the AVF had been mobilising, on the evening of March 10, a contingent of AWB members had gathered outside Mafikeng. An even larger contingent were at a border post near Rooigrond.

That evening Colonel Antonie Botse asked AWB leader Eugene Terre'Blanche and his men to leave but Terre'Blanche refused to take orders from a Colonel. During the night from March 10 - March 11, Jack Turner of the Bophuthatswana Defence Force re-iterated Botse's request but Terre'Blanche, falsely stated that Mangope had requested his presence, although Mangope denied it to Turner. It was agreed that the AWB could remain in the area but that Terre'Blanche was himself to leave and that the men were under the command of Breytenbach and Steyn, not Terre'Blanche, and additionally that they were to remove all AWB insignia from their clothing.

During the evening of negotiations some 37 people were killed, allegedly by the AWB. The next morning the AWB joined the AVF convoy to the air base. Interestingly, General Nicolaas Fourie, one of the 3 AWB commandos killed in an incident on their way out of Mmabatho, had told Terre'Blanche that it was unwise to move into the airbase. They were sent to guard various places, however, many blacks in the Bophuthatswana Defence Force had threatened to attack the AWB and AVF because they had supported Mangope only on the terms that the AWB would not be involved and they were upset about the 37 deaths allegedly inflicted by the AWB. Greg Marinovich, journalist and member of the Bang-Bang Club, stated that one Boer present had remarked, "Ons is op 'n kafferskiet piekniek", Afrikaans for 'we are on a kaffir shooting picnic'.

Between 12.00 and 13.00 hours the AWB forces left the air force base in Mmabatho without an escort and, despite promising to remove all AWB insignia and work under Steyn and Breytenbach, they did neither and drove through Mmabatho and Mafikeng and shot many civilians.[citation needed]

Marinovich described pulling out at an intersection in his car and seeing columns of AWB vehicles extending left and right, as far as the eye could see. AWB members were indiscriminately shooting and tossing grenades at civilians alongside the convoys.[citation needed]

The AVF left at 16.00 hours on March 11 and were escorted out via a route which kept them from contact with the general public.

Killing of Wolfaardt, Uys, and Fourie

The single most publicised event of the coup was the killing of three wounded AWB members who were shot dead at point-blank range in front of journalists by a Bophuthatswana police constable, Ontlametse Bernstein Menyatsoe.

AWB Colonel Alwyn Wolfaardt, AWB General Nicolaas Fourie and Veldkornet (Field Cornet) Jacobus Stephanus Uys were driving a blue Mercedes at the end of a convoy of AWB vehicles, firing into a crowd of Bophuthatswanan civilians.[citation needed] Members of the Bophuthatswana Defence Force returned fire and hit the driver of the car, Nicolaas Fourie, in the neck, another gunman, Alwyn Wolfaardt, in the arm and the remaining gunman, Jacobus Uys, in the leg. Wolfaardt got out of the car and waved a pistol but was advised by nearby journalists not to start shooting. A Bophuthatswana police officer relieved him of the weapon. Another policeman tried to fire on journalists but his rifle jammed and it was taken from him by yet another policeman. Menyatsoe approached and spoke to Wolfaardt, asking if he was a member of the AWB. Wolfaardt confirmed this, saying they came from Naboomspruit, and pleaded for his life and the lives of the other two wounded AWB members. Menyatsoe then shot the three wounded men dead at point blank range with an R4 rifle, saying "what are you doing in my country". The shooting was captured by the watching journalists and broadcast worldwide.

Amnesty hearing

Menyatsoe applied for amnesty at a Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) hearing in August 1999, on the grounds that the killings were politically motivated. The application was opposed by the Wolfaardt, Uys and Fourie families, and Manyatsoe was cross-examined by AWB leader Eugene Terre'Blanche. Menyatsoe claimed that his emotions were raised by his seeing a wounded mother, who had been hit when the AWB had fired from their vehicles into a nearby crowd. According to other journalists dozens of paramilitaries had been firing into traditional houses along the road out of Bophuthatswana. Terre'Blanche pointed out that the three soldiers were wounded by the time Menyatso shot them and that they no longer posed any threat. Menyatso claimed that he acted on his own initiative because of the absence of a commanding officer. Terre'Blanche countered that he could not claim he acted as a policeman because his function was to protect high-ranking government officials, i.e. Mangope, that he was a part of a mutiny, and that the AWB and AVF were an ally of Mangope's regime brought in to quell rioting and suppress the mutiny.[3]

Menyatsoe was granted amnesty by the TRC.[4]

Bophuthatswana coup d'état of 1994 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bophuthatswana_coup)

BenRoethig
06 Apr 10,, 19:20
Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

Got exactly what he deserved. Now hopefully the killers will get theirs.

bigross86
06 Apr 10,, 19:25
Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

I wonder, what could he have possibly done that everyone here rejoices at his death?

If an Al-Qaeda leader in Iraq or Afghanistan is killed, I can understand. Al-Qaeda has done plenty harm to Americans, and I doubt there is anyone here who has not been touched by terror somehow. If a Hezbollah or Hamas terrorist is taken out, I will even applaud, because they are actively trying to kill me, something I very much wish would not happen. But what did this guy all the way down in South Africa do that he has earned every one here's undying hatred?

Is it because he's a racist? There are plenty of racists out there much closer to home, why borrow trouble all the way from South Africa?

Again, I'm not sorry he's dead, but I'm not extremely glad, either. When people resort to violence, but moreover, we rejoice in that violence, something has gone wrong somewhere.

Mihais
06 Apr 10,, 20:07
BR,I commend you for your thoughts.I feel the same.From what I read on the web,after his release from prison,Terreblanche was in many ways a changed man on a personal level.

But not the man is important in this case.His killers didn't murdered a racist,but a farmer and as an extension,another white man.His murder is just another manifestation of a disease.A disease that left tens of thousands dead or maimed,hundreds of thousands impoverished and led more than a million into exile.For less,NATO went to Kosovo.And it may be the ultimate irony that the death of a such a controversial figure might open many eyes to the plight of the community that opposed what Terreblanche did during his life.

troung
06 Apr 10,, 20:47
Now,is it forbidden to hire white workers under the BEE or similar laws?Because what I notice in this case as well as in other murders is that blacks hired at a farm for a significant period of time are(in many cases)the suspected or actual criminals.And frankly it doesn't suit the image of a big supremacist (or separatist,or whatever the late Mr. Terreblanche considered himself to be)to hire blacks,when poor whites are plenty.

Hiring African workers as cheap labor and then not paying them is hardly proof that one is not a racist.... ;)

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Page last updated at 17:57 GMT, Tuesday, 6 April 2010 18:57 UK
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Race hate lives on in 'rainbow nation'

Confrontation between black and white South Africans
Terreblanche's death has rekindled deep divisions between blacks and whites

By Pumza Fihlani
BBC News, Ventersdorp

Sixteen years after the end of white minority rule in South Africa, the court appearance of two young men accused of the murder of white supremacist Eugene Terreblanche has highlighted the level of racial intolerance and hatred still felt by many South Africans - black and white.

Outside court in Ventersdorp, North West province, hundreds of white farmers, many dressed in camouflage, staged a protest, with many saying Terreblanche's killing was the last straw and vowing to "protect" themselves at all costs.


Dirkie Cronwright
This means war
Dirkie Cronwright

"The gun was loaded, it has been so for years, but the trigger has now been pulled. South Africa is not safe at the moment," said Shaun Labuschagne, an Afrikaner who had travelled from Johannesburg for the court hearing.

"For the past seven years, our people have been wiped out. We are here to plan our next move," he says to me before walking off.

He is referring to the fact that some 3,000 white farmers have been killed since the end of apartheid.

But then about 50 people - mostly black - are murdered each day in this country.

Next to Mr Labuschagne is a man in his mid-20s, Dirkie Cronwright, dressed in full army camouflage.

At first he is reluctant to speak to me, worried that he will say something he might regret, he says.

But then he lets loose, screaming: "There is going to be war here - it is only a matter of time.

"The blacks want everything - they have the country what more do they want?"

"They don't care about us - about the white guys - and that makes me very angry.

"This means war," he says, as if oblivious to the fact that he is speaking to a black person.

'He deserved it'

On the other side of the colour bar, some black people have hailed the two men who killed Terreblanche as heroes.
Police keeping rival groups apart
The police had to intervene to separate the two groups

"God gave them power to kill that man. They did what no-one else could do," says Maria Gantane.

"When [anti-apartheid fighter] Chris Hani died, no white people cried, only us blacks cried"

"Terreblanche should have died a long time ago. He has been abusing black workers for years, he deserved to die. We can now live in peace," says a man outside court.

"If Terreblanche was to show up now, we would kill him," says another man, a farm worker.

No rainbow nation

Members of Terreblanche's paramilitary group AWB (Afrikaner Resistance Movement) waved flags, carried placards and distributed badges with Afrikaner nationalist symbolism, in a show of unity against what they term "a siege by blacks".
Afrikaner protester
Some Afrikaners accuse the ANC of spreading hatred

Time has stood still here, monuments celebrating the lives of Afrikaners dating back to the 1800s still stand in many parts of the predominantly white town.

The streets all bear Afrikaans names and many of the shops also have Afrikaans names - there is a silent message that this is no place for blacks.

But a crowd of about 150 black people from surrounding communities did venture into the town for the court appearance.

When the larger crowd of Afrikaners started singing the former national anthem - Die Stem, they retaliated by singing the new post-apartheid anthem Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrica (God Bless Africa).

A white woman then splashed water on a young black woman, causing a scuffle to break out and forcing police to use razor wire to separate the two groups.

The Afrikaners hurled racial slurs - calling the blacks "baboons" and "kaffirs" - both derogatory names used to refer to black people.

This was far removed from Nelson Mandela's vision of a new South Africa - a rainbow nation.

In the days of apartheid, the Afrikaners used to dominate South Africa and some still yearn for those days.

Many agree that Saturday's brutal murder has turned a town which had learned to cope with its racism into one which now calls for drastic action including taking up arms, if only for protection.

This has caused a wave of fear in black residents of South Africa's farming areas, where racism remains rife.

In the rest of the country, open signs of racism are rare but black and white South Africans largely lead separate lives.

"I live in the township a few kilometres from town and we don't feel safe as blacks, especially now Terreblanche has been killed," said university student Lesego Tsui.

"I don't even want to go out at night any more because you don't know if the Boers [whites] will come after us."

Bigfella
06 Apr 10,, 22:23
I wonder, what could he have possibly done that everyone here rejoices at his death?

If an Al-Qaeda leader in Iraq or Afghanistan is killed, I can understand. Al-Qaeda has done plenty harm to Americans, and I doubt there is anyone here who has not been touched by terror somehow. If a Hezbollah or Hamas terrorist is taken out, I will even applaud, because they are actively trying to kill me, something I very much wish would not happen. But what did this guy all the way down in South Africa do that he has earned every one here's undying hatred?

Is it because he's a racist? There are plenty of racists out there much closer to home, why borrow trouble all the way from South Africa?

Again, I'm not sorry he's dead, but I'm not extremely glad, either. When people resort to violence, but moreover, we rejoice in that violence, something has gone wrong somewhere.


I'll give you mine:

He was a violent & virulently racist quasi fascist who killed people in an attempt to keep the Apartheid dictatorship in place. To my mind such people are close to the nadir of my civilization - Nazi wannabes.

Have a look at the account above. His little army rolled into a black homeland spraying bullets & hurling grenades & then rolled out doing the same. Even a low figure for dead would be over 50, he claimed 100+. This wasn't even targetted - just killing black folks who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Then there were the bombings - bigger than anything the ANC ever did & killed about 20 people. All aimed at stopping elections. He didn't do a day in jail for any of it.

Had the news been that OBL, Joseph Kony, Rios Montt or Henry Kissinger had died I would be just as cheered - there are some people who are just oxygen thieves. Felt the same when Saddam was hanged. I'm not rejoicing in the violence committed, just the outcome. I hope the two people responsible are punished according to law. I would be just as happy if he had dropped dead of a heart attack. The world is a slightly better place without some people in it.

Bigfella
06 Apr 10,, 22:24
"They don't care about us - about the white guys - and that makes me very angry.

OK, now that is priceless. These people really do live on another planet.

Mihais
07 Apr 10,, 09:07
Hiring African workers as cheap labor and then not paying them is hardly proof that one is not a racist.... ;)

The bar on racism goes lower by day.For me this is a serious accusation,that should be used only in blatant cases of hatred or state supported discrimination.Otherwise you'd became a racist for looking funny at someone.Hey,everyone is a racist.Or will be,soon.
To make a confession,I hate whites.More exactly,all people I hate are whites.And I know the bastards well,because I deal with them often.
The question that makes me lose sleep is:am I prejudiced or post-judiced?:rolleyes:



Time has stood still here, monuments celebrating the lives of Afrikaners dating back to the 1800s still stand in many parts of the predominantly white town.

The streets all bear Afrikaans names and many of the shops also have Afrikaans names - there is a silent message that this is no place for blacks.


History,culture and commerce are racist as well.They need to be erased.Wait a second,isn't that really happening?Bravo,kill the Nazis,burn the books,blow up monuments.For freedom,equality and love amongst nations and races:rolleyes:

A biased article if I've seen one.Grade 10 out of 10 for BS-ing.

troung
07 Apr 10,, 15:23
The bar on racism goes lower by day.For me this is a serious accusation,that should be used only in blatant cases of hatred or state supported discrimination.Otherwise you'd became a racist for looking funny at someone.Hey,everyone is a racist.Or will be,soon.

He did far more then looked at black people funny.

Mihais
07 Apr 10,, 15:30
I know what he did and what he stood for.But labour disputes aren't proof of racism(at least that's the way I interpreted your post),generally speaking.

Mihais
08 Apr 10,, 10:50
OK, now that is priceless. These people really do live on another planet.

Expand it please.I'm not sure what you mean.

Boer
08 Apr 10,, 11:49
Okay, let me tell you what is happening here in South Africa. More than 3300 white farmers killed on their farmes the last 4 years. Nothing was stolen. So it's not like they needing money or food. Just killed in their houses. The ANC Youth Leage leader sings "Kill the Boer" (Kill the white farmer). I tried to apply for the police, army and navy and was told that I can't because I'm white. We had to give our LICENCED fire arms in for destruction by the police but the weapons get stolen from police lockup and sold to blacks to kill more white people. The goverment now wants to take all the white farms in South Africa like in Zimbabwe.

So, we can't defend ourselfs, we can't work. And killing us is justified by the ANC.

Bigfella
08 Apr 10,, 12:07
Expand it please.I'm not sure what you mean.


Read some history, especially the bits about how much 'care' was shown to non-whites under Afrikaner rule. You might also want to read a bit more about the 'caring' actions of the AWB. She expects better treatment than she or hers were even prepared to countenance for others.

Boer
08 Apr 10,, 12:25
O yes, and while your busy reading up on that history of South Africa, go back and read what happend in the Boere war. And the 2millGBP England paid for the war and the 500 000 troops they sent to South Africa and how the white south africans and brittish medics were shot while trying to help wounded brittish soldiers. And the numer of black farm workers KILLED and burned alive by Brittish troops. And the white farmer children burned in their houses by British troops. And then you go read about the Border war. And the help they received from Russia, China, Cuba and the USA. Who instigated the border war? Russia, USA, China and Cuba paid, and trained and gave the blacks in Africa weapons to make war agains Africa. MANY blacks of local villages was killed and slaughterd before South Africa intervened. SOuth Africa lost many troops in the DEFENCE on Namibia and other black owned countries.

S2
08 Apr 10,, 12:26
You've made two posts.

We'd appreciate you making your third post in the members introduction section here (http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/member-introductions/).

That would conform with the commonly-accepted etiquette of introducing oneself when amongst new acquaintances. Just click the new thread button once there and tell us about yourself. While there, you might also read the forum guidelines as well as the COMPLETELY UNOFFICIAL WAB SURVIVORS GUIDE.

It may help.

Thanks.

Bigfella
08 Apr 10,, 13:12
O yes, and while your busy reading up on that history of South Africa, go back and read what happend in the Boere war. And the 2millGBP England paid for the war and the 500 000 troops they sent to South Africa and how the white south africans and brittish medics were shot while trying to help wounded brittish soldiers. And the numer of black farm workers KILLED and burned alive by Brittish troops. And the white farmer children burned in their houses by British troops. And then you go read about the Border war. And the help they received from Russia, China, Cuba and the USA. Who instigated the border war? Russia, USA, China and Cuba paid, and trained and gave the blacks in Africa weapons to make war agains Africa. MANY blacks of local villages was killed and slaughterd before South Africa intervened. SOuth Africa lost many troops in the DEFENCE on Namibia and other black owned countries.

Well done. Took you exactly 2 posts to mention a war that ended over a century ago. Talk about cliche`.The rest of it is also fascinating, though probably not in the fashion you intended. Just one question, what does this have to do with Boers (and in particular this group) expecting better treatment than they meted out when they were in power?

Boer
08 Apr 10,, 13:21
I am sorry for bringing that up on this forum. I just feel that people don't understand what it is like over here and I know that is no excuse. I do not wish to make any enemies on WAB and respect the opinions of others on WAB.

S2
08 Apr 10,, 13:26
The ANC has NOT banned singing "Shoot The Boer". However, they've asked that the song not be sung. The request, while general, is considered directed specifically at Julius Malema-

South Africa's ANC stops singing 'Shoot the Boer'-BBC April 8, 2010 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8607452.stm)

Given that over 3,000 white farmers have been murdered in S. Africa since 1994, this will hopefully quell some concerns about violence being promulgated against the white rural communities of S. Africa's heartland.

Bigfella
08 Apr 10,, 13:45
I am sorry for bringing that up on this forum. I just feel that people don't understand what it is like over here and I know that is no excuse. I do not wish to make any enemies on WAB and respect the opinions of others on WAB.

Boer,

I'm sure people here (me included) will be fascinated to hear your perspective. There are a number of Sth Africans who are members here who also try to keep us informed on such matters. You'll also have to accept that your background does come with a bit of baggage to an outside observer. You may still keenly feel the wounds inflicted by the British, but anyone over about 35 can clearly remember the wounds inflicted by & on behalf of your people in a very direct way. While it is not your place to answer for that, it will inevitably cast a shadow - fairly or otherwise.

What would be particularly valuable would be links to help support what you are telling us. You have already said a few things that are at odds with reports I have heard or which I was unaware of. It would be useful if you could direct us to credible information on issues like the murder of white farmers, firearms laws etc.

I would also reinforce the advice of my good friend S-2 - read the survival guide. This is a place of robust but generally good natured debate. It is also a place of unlikely friendships. People who you disagree with passionately can also turn out to be fine folks & people you agree with not so much. Take a while to read a bit. Back up what you say. I would also say the the 'private Message' system can be a good way to get to know people outside the rough & tumble of the boards (though it is a poor place to continue an argument).

Boer
08 Apr 10,, 14:01
Thank you for the advice and I will do so.

Regarding the farm murders: White farmers 'being wiped out' - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article7078730.ece)

The new gun law: New deadlines for gun owners - SouthAfrica.info (http://www.southafrica.info/services/guns-110806.htm)
Firearms destroyed - News - Jacaranda 94.2 (http://www.jacarandafm.com/kagiso/content/en/jacaranda/jacaranda-news?oid=534935&sn=Detail)

Those are all legal guns they denied new licenses for. I will get you more links regarding this

Mihais
08 Apr 10,, 14:01
Read some history, especially the bits about how much 'care' was shown to non-whites under Afrikaner rule. You might also want to read a bit more about the 'caring' actions of the AWB. She expects better treatment than she or hers were even prepared to countenance for others.

I was extremely tempted for a few moments to give you the first position in the Hall of Shame.I decided not to do it because it wouldn't eliminate neither arrogance nor the views I oppose(hopefully,only with words not swords).It would also go against my principles to silence a voice by covering my ears.

I was hoping your answer would sound in a different manner.Because you are in effect advocating they should have expected ''an eye for eye''.That's a world apart from what Mandela promised almost 20 years ago.The Afrikaners have every goddam right in the world to expect that their government to care for all its citizens,regardless of colour.For the current government(and not only)they were suckers to believe the promise of the Rainbow Nation.
I observe you care about what happened during the Apartheid.I notice with a certain dismay that only a couple care about the present.ANC officials advocate genocide,while the rest of the leadership tacitly supports such moves.Racial motivated crimes are ignored or blatantly covered by SAPS,which is in all effects a political tool(democracy's finest hour,ehh).Racial policies and the race relations are responsible for what is in practice ethnic cleansing(but maybe ~25 % of the white population isn't a enough).The Afrikaners are victims of a fascist regime.Btw,they're not playing victims.The numbers have a language of their own.The world(and more important,the West)should take a stand.Most are silent or spout the moronic ''sh!t,this is karma''.From the officials,nada,nicht,rien and nothing.And when some protest against,they're from another planet for daring to stand for themselves.

I remember you are a very vocal supporter of homos.I'm an equally passionate supporter of the Afrikaners.Because I stand for justice against tyrants and genocidal maniacs.And because I had the pleasure to befriend people from all English speaking countries in various exchanges.I'm still in touch with many.One of them stood once in a line in a grocery.Someone from behind must have thought that getting there first is racist.My friend never knew he died,while his killer,from what I know is still at large. That makes it personal.Guess the country.

troung
08 Apr 10,, 14:29
Okay, let me tell you what is happening here in South Africa. More than 3300 white farmers killed on their farmes the last 4 years. Nothing was stolen. So it's not like they needing money or food. Just killed in their houses. The ANC Youth Leage leader sings "Kill the Boer" (Kill the white farmer). I tried to apply for the police, army and navy and was told that I can't because I'm white. We had to give our LICENCED fire arms in for destruction by the police but the weapons get stolen from police lockup and sold to blacks to kill more white people. The goverment now wants to take all the white farms in South Africa like in Zimbabwe.

I’m underwhelmed. Three thousand deaths over 16 years (not four), hardly a genocide. More people have been killed in most major cities in the same time period. A third of the victims are black and most the crimes are financially related.

Boer
08 Apr 10,, 14:35
I’m underwhelmed. Three thousand deaths over 16 years (not four), hardly a genocide. More people have been killed in most major cities in the same time period I’ll venture to guess. A third of the victims are black and most the crimes are financially related.

Yeah. But that is ONLY white farmers. Not all the whites that have been killed since 1994 and that's more than 40 000. In other words that's roughly 3000 farms that stoped production of food and supplying jobs to the farm workes that worked there.
1% of all South African whites have been murdered since 1994. (http://cofcc.org/2008/07/1-of-all-south-african-whites-have-been-murdered-since-1994/)

S2
08 Apr 10,, 14:42
"Three thousand deaths over 16 years (not four)..."

That's over 180 farmers a year...like clockwork. Whether you're underwhelmed or not, each of those families are overwhelmed.

"A third of the victims are black and most the crimes are financially related."

A link would help to clarify exactly to what you're referring.

S2
08 Apr 10,, 14:53
"1% of all South African whites have been murdered since 1994."

You'd best do better in your links than to refer to a neo-fascist organization who's espoused principles include the following-

(1) We believe the United States is a Christian country. We believe that the United States of America is a Christian country, that its people are a Christian people, and that its government and public leaders at all levels must reflect Christian beliefs and values. We therefore oppose all efforts to deny or weaken the Christian heritage of the United States, including the unconstitutional prohibitions of prayers and other religious expression in schools and other public institutions.

(2) We believe the United States is a European country and that Americans are part of the European people. We believe that the United States derives from and is an integral part of European civilization and the European people and that the American people and government should remain European in their composition and character. We therefore oppose the massive immigration of non-European and non-Western peoples into the United States that threatens to transform our nation into a non-European majority in our lifetime.

while the linked information you provide has ZERO statistical value-

"However, it is widely estimated that the number of white murder victims since 1994 has exceeded 40,000 or 1% of the entire population of white South Africans."

If the best you can provide are estimates from a wide range of sources which all agree on roughly 40,000 dead, it would be appropriate to list a few of those sources and where they make reference to such a number. No doubt there may be a case to make against the documentation of murder by race in S. Africa. You're doing so now but without the benefit of the sources you claim substantiating such.

Please do your homework.

bigross86
08 Apr 10,, 16:12
Okay, I also think that the 1% statement is a bit far fetched. Here are some official numbers from the 2003 Committee of Inquiry into Farm Attacks appointed by the National Commissioner of Police:

"Statistics on farm attacks have been collected by mainly three bodies, viz. the South African Agricultural Union (SAAU, now Agri SA), the South African Police Service, through their Crime Information Analysis Centre (CIAC), and the National Operational Coordinating Committee (NOCOC), in which the South African National Defence Force is very involved. As will be seen below, none of them has statistics which are completely accurate."

Important to remember, we're dealing specifically with farm attacks, not attacks on all white folk, or attacks on black folk. Also, since the report was submitted in 2003, the numbers are out of date, but it's safe to assume that the numbers (as a general rule) have held the same or increased, mainly since only recently (March 10, 2010) did the South African Police Minister Nathi Mthethwa promise farmers the police force would try and reduce farm murders.

Another important factor, taken from the report itself:

"The Committee attempted to collate the statistics on farm attacks from the various sources, but found that where the statistics overlapped they differed quite considerably. It is therefore difficult to construct a complete statistical picture... The SAAU got its information primarily, though not exclusively, from local agricultural societies, and the likelihood is that the emphasis might have fallen on commercial farmers, rather than on, for example, smallholders not affiliated to the agricultural societies"

There is one police officer per square Km in south Africa

From 1991 until 1997 there were 3065 attacks and 677 murders, working out to a murder committed 22.1% of the time. For 1998-2001 the numbers are 3932 attacks, 661 murdes, 16.8% of the time

Based on SAUU numbers and NCOIC figures, from 1991 until 2001 there were 6122 farm attacks and 1254 killings, an average of 111 a year, or approximately one every three days.

Again, keep in mind there is a discrepancy in numbers because they are being reported by several organizations, due to the SUAA keeping track of Farm Attacks earlier than the CIAC and NOCOC

According to Afrikanerbond chief secretary Jan Bosman there were about 750 to 850 attacks on farms each year, adding that in 2009 120 people were murdered on farms.

For anyone interested in more sold numbers or just want's to look for themselves, the report can be found at Report on Farm Attacks (http://www.iss.org.za/CJM/farmrep/index.htm). The numbers I supplies were found in Chapter 2 of the report, found at http://www.iss.org.za/CJM/farmrep/part2.pdf

bigross86
08 Apr 10,, 16:12
Double Tap, my bad...

Boer
08 Apr 10,, 16:39
the 1% is a estimation of all white people being killed in SA since 1994

Mihais
08 Apr 10,, 16:41
Politicsweb - FEATURES - Racial lunacy in the police (http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=152114&sn=Detail)

''It seems that the racial policies of the SAPS may well have served as a cover for other agendas. It was suggested in court that the (former MK?) soldiers redeployed from the SANDF to the SAPS in 2004 and 2005 - after a twelve week conversion course - have subsequently received preference in promotions. Barnard testified that members of the police who had joined from the defence force were all now superintendents or senior superintendents. She and many other career police officers meanwhile - both white and black - remained stuck at the rank of captain.''

Mihais
08 Apr 10,, 16:52
the 1% is a estimation of all white people being killed in SA since 1994

I've read on various sites or articles about an estimated number of 18000."Only" 0.5%.Still,a huge number.IIRC the total number of deaths was around 115000 since 1994.Roughly 1 of 6 were whites,while the population ratio between blacks and white are ~ 1 of 12.Until I get the links,trust my memory(although the bi..h sometimes cheats me:biggrin:).

Correction.It's ~105000 and it's only for 1994-98 period.

astralis
08 Apr 10,, 17:10
mihais,


I remember you are a very vocal supporter of homos.

that's a derogatory term. don't use it.

bigross86
08 Apr 10,, 17:15
Some more math:

The South African population as of 2009 is 49,320,000, according to Statistics South Africa's Mid Year Release (Link (http://www.statssa.gov.za/PublicationsHTML/P03022009/html/P03022009.html)). White people compromise 9.1% of South Africans, or 4,448,120.

The claim, as stated, is that 1% of the whites, or 44,881 white people, have been murdered since 1994, which works out to 2,805 whites a year. Official reports by three different groups (and merged into one, as well) claim Farm Attacks are responsible for approximately 120 deaths a year. That leaves 2,685 more white murders to account for, or 7 dead white people a day.

Unfortunately, I can't find anything online that will show me the breakdown of murders in South Africa, between blacks and whites.

Is the 1% claim feasible? It could be. In a country that has 87 murders with firearms a day (NationMaster - South African Crime statistics (http://www.nationmaster.com/red/country/sf-south-africa/cri-crime&b_cite=1)) 7 dead white people a day is a very distinct possibility.

Mihais
08 Apr 10,, 17:43
that's a derogatory term. don't use it.

Thanks.My apologies.

bigross86
08 Apr 10,, 22:48
This has been a very very tense week in South Africa and amidst calls for calm the Institute of Race Relations has released the following press release. We are on the eve of the 2010 Soccer World Cup Tournament and have been assured that security in South Africa will be priority and we encourage visitors to come! On a personal note, as an activist, this has been the strangest, most trying and tense in my career - Rolene


Statement by the South African Institute of Race Relations on the ramifications of the killing of Eugène Terre'Blanche - 6th April 2010

The Institute desisted from issuing a formal statement in the immediate aftermath of the killing of Mr Terre'Blanche in order to first gauge the broader social, political, and international reaction to the killing. The Institute is now in a position to make the following points.

Racial tensions in the country appear to have increased significantly in recent weeks. This appears to be chiefly as a result of incitement by the ruling African National Congress to ‘shoot and kill’ the Afrikaner ethnic minority in the country. The anxiety around this incitement may well have influenced opinions across the broader white community. What appears to be the case is that much of the racial rapprochement that characterised the first 15 years of South Africa’s democracy is being undone. This rapprochement saw both black and white South Africans come to occupy a middle ground on race relations upon which the maintenance of future stable race relations depends.

Since 1994 the number of white farmers and their families murdered in South Africa is conservatively put at around 1 000. It may very well be much higher. There are currently an estimated 40 000 commercial farmers in the country. Over this same period in the region 250 000 South Africans out of a total current population of approximately 47 million have been murdered. Criminal violence can therefore be described as ‘rampant’ and has done considerable damage to the social fabric of the country. However, this is not to say that all murders in the country are a function of simple criminal banditry. In an environment where law and order has largely collapsed the consequences of incitement by political leaders to commit murder must be taken seriously.

Over the same period the policy measures put in place by the Government to raise the living standards of the black majority have failed to meet expectations. The key interventions of affirmative action and black economic empowerment have been exploited by the African National Congress to build a network of patronage that has made elements of its leadership extremely wealthy. The party also appears to have been so overwhelmed by corrupt tendencies that it is no longer able to act decisively against corrupt behaviour.

It has also through incompetence and poor policy been unable to address failures in the education system which are now the primary factor retarding the economic advancement of black South Africans.

At the same time the party is acutely aware that its support base of poor black South Africans has begun to turn against it. Violent protest action against the ruling party is now commonplace around the country.

In order to shore up support in the black community the ANC increasingly appears to be seeking to shift the blame for its delivery failures onto the small white ethnic minority, which today comprises well under 10% of the total population ofSouth Africa. Here parallels may be read to the behaviour of Zanu-PF in Zimbabwe when that party realised that its political future was in peril. The ANC Youth League’s recent visit to Zanu-PF which saw it endorse that party’s ruinous polices are pertinent here.

In such an environment it is plausible to consider that the ANC’s exhortations to violence may be a contributing factor to the killing of Mr Terre'Blanche. Certainly the ANC’s protestations to the contrary seem ridiculous as the party is in effect saying that its followers pay no attention to what it says - this from a party that routinely claims that it is the manifestation of the will of all black South Africans. This is not to say that a labour dispute or some other matter could not have inflamed tensions on the Terre'Blanche farm. Rather it is to say that a number of different matters should be considered in determining the motivation for the crime.

Certainly the ANC’s exhortations to violence have created a context where the killings of white people will see a degree of suspicion falling around the party and its supporters.

It is of concern therefore that the police’s senior management are on record as saying that they will not consider a political motive or partial motive for the killing of MrTerre'Blanche. This suggests an early effort to cover up the ANC’s possible culpability for inciting the crime.

Should any allegations of a political cover-up arise in the pending murder trial of the two young men accused of the Terre'Blanche murder the political consequences could be significant. Should evidence be led that the two young men acted with what they understood to be the tacit backing of the ANC, and a causal link between their actions and incitement by the ANC be established, then the possibility of charging the ANC’s senior leadership in connection to the murder arises. Equally plausible is that the Terre’Blanche family and the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging could bring a civil suit against the ANC and the Government.



It is possible that the killing of Mr Terre'Blanche will greatly strengthen the hand of a new hardened right wing in South Africa. In life Mr Terre'Blanche attracted a small, uninfluential, and extremist following. He will not be mourned for what he stood for. However, in death he may come to represent the experiences of scores of minority groups in the country who perceive themselves as being on the receiving end of racist and now also violent abuse from the ANC. In effect therefore MrTerre'Blanche may be seen as having been martyred for a minority cause in the country.



The implications of a resurgent right wing will be numerous. It is most unlikely that this right wing will take the form of camouflage clad henchmen on horses in shows of force. The ANC has also often, wrongly, identified groups including the political opposition, Afriforum, agricultural unions, and even this Institute as ‘the right wing’. This silly ‘red under every bed’ attitude in the ANC saw it lose the trust of many civil society and political groups. These groups could all be defined first and foremost by the common belief that they had to act within the bounds of what the Constitution prescribed.



But the ANC belittled and undermined them. It also undermined parliament, the national prosecution service, and the various human rights and other organisations that were established under the Constitution. It may yet usurp the independence of the courts and the judiciary. The result was a shutting down of many of the democratic channels that were created for citizens in the country to make the Government aware of their concerns and circumstances.



The resurgence of a new political consciousness among minorities could drive an altogether different political force. Such a movement will draw its strength chiefly from a hardening attitudes in the white community but perhaps also in the Indian and coloured communities. These will be views that in the main have come to subscribe to some or all of the following points:



1. That the Government has corrupted and debilitated many of the country’s internal democratic processes for political or civil expression that were established under the Constitution

2. That cooperation with the current Government of South Africa is therefore fundamentally unfeasible and therefore futile

3. That the Government is unable to restore law and order in the country

4. That the Government is therefore unable protect its citizens

5. That the Government has a hostile agenda against minority groups

However it is equally, if not most likely, that many minorities who subscribe to the five points above may simply get so fed up that those who can will pack up and go. Here they may take the advice of President Zuma to remain calm as they pack up their businesses and their families and calmly board aircraft for Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the United States, and Great Britain. With the exodus will leave much of the tax and expertise base of the country.



Should the ANC, however, find itself facing increased political resistance it will in many respects have a tiger by the tail.



**Firstly, the ANC depends greatly on the tax income paid by white South Africans to balance South Africa’s books.

**Secondly, it depends entirely on the food produced by a small number of white farmers to feed the country.

**Thirdly, white South Africans still dominate the skills base of the country.

**Finally, and most importantly, much white opinion since the early 1990s has been moderate. White South Africa has been willing and often eager to cooperate with the Government in building an open, non-racial, and prosperous South Africa. Losing that cooperation will to an extent put an end to any serious chance that the ANC has of leading South Africa to become a successful and prosperous democracy.



While the ANC will be inclined to blame whites for this, and may even take drastic action to confiscate white commercial interests as they are currently doing in agriculture, these actions will be ruinous for the economy. The result of such ruin will be to drive a deeper wedge between the ANC and its traditional support base and thereby hasten the political decay of the party.



When General Constand Viljoen decided to throw his lot in with democracy in the early 1990s the right wing in South Africa was a spent force. So it should and could have remained. The ANC could have taken advantage of white expertise and tax revenue to realise their own vision of a better life for all. Things have however gone badly wrong for the party. Corruption has destroyed its ability to meet the demands of its constituents while racial bigotry has now seen it defending its image against what should have been an insignificant and dying neo-Nazi faction in the country.



The failure of sensible South Africans to take back the racial middle ground in the country will be serious. Polarisation will beget further racial conflict and a hardening of attitudes on all sides. This is perhaps the greatest leadership test that the current Government has faced and it is one that they cannot afford to fail.

Boer
09 Apr 10,, 03:55
Thanks

Bigfella
09 Apr 10,, 09:14
I was extremely tempted for a few moments to give you the first position in the Hall of Shame.I decided not to do it because it wouldn't eliminate neither arrogance nor the views I oppose(hopefully,only with words not swords).It would also go against my principles to silence a voice by covering my ears.

I was hoping your answer would sound in a different manner.Because you are in effect advocating they should have expected ''an eye for eye''.That's a world apart from what Mandela promised almost 20 years ago.The Afrikaners have every goddam right in the world to expect that their government to care for all its citizens,regardless of colour.For the current government(and not only)they were suckers to believe the promise of the Rainbow Nation.
I observe you care about what happened during the Apartheid.I notice with a certain dismay that only a couple care about the present.ANC officials advocate genocide,while the rest of the leadership tacitly supports such moves.Racial motivated crimes are ignored or blatantly covered by SAPS,which is in all effects a political tool(democracy's finest hour,ehh).Racial policies and the race relations are responsible for what is in practice ethnic cleansing(but maybe ~25 % of the white population isn't a enough).The Afrikaners are victims of a fascist regime.Btw,they're not playing victims.The numbers have a language of their own.The world(and more important,the West)should take a stand.Most are silent or spout the moronic ''sh!t,this is karma''.From the officials,nada,nicht,rien and nothing.And when some protest against,they're from another planet for daring to stand for themselves.

I remember you are a very vocal supporter of homos.I'm an equally passionate supporter of the Afrikaners.Because I stand for justice against tyrants and genocidal maniacs.And because I had the pleasure to befriend people from all English speaking countries in various exchanges.I'm still in touch with many.One of them stood once in a line in a grocery.Someone from behind must have thought that getting there first is racist.My friend never knew he died,while his killer,from what I know is still at large. That makes it personal.Guess the country.


Since this has next to nothing to do with anything I wrote I won't waste much time on it.

I'm sorry to hear about your friend. The RSA is a dangerous place for all races. The fact that you are justifiably upset doesn't suddenly make the world the way you would like it to be.

That doesn't make Eugene TerreBlanche any less evil a human being. Neither does it make the comments I highlighted any less surreal. Perhaps you don't see why such comments coming from someone mourning a man who killed to keep non-whites subdjugated are absurd. Not my problem.

Oh, and well done on slipping in a bit of anti-gay bigotry. Classy.

I'm done with you now. The last word is yours if you desire it.

Bigfella
09 Apr 10,, 09:28
This has been a very very tense week in South Africa and amidst calls for calm the Institute of Race Relations has released the following press release....

Good article BR. I fear that those of us who rejoiced at the relatively peaceful transition to democracy in the RSA may have jumped the gun. The honeymoon is over & a generation are reaching adulthood for whom freedom alone is not enough. The ANC has not followed up on the fine job it did with the transition. I am desperately hoping that it doesn't lapse into the pattern of so many other African regimes & entrench itself in power illegally.

My own concerns about a revival of violent right wing politics in Sth Africa is that it actually helps to entrench the ANC. From something as simple as scaring non-whites who might be considering shifting their vote to something as nasty as using expanded police & security powers to curtail dissent - such a movement could actually achieve precisely the opposite of what it wants.

I would like to think that wiser heads in the ANC will prevail & some way will be found to calm white fears & keep their skills & capital in the country. My personal bet is that this isn't going to happen. Most politicians, even those who mean well, end up choosing expediency & their own political survival. if enough people in the ANC base want punitive policies or simply to ignore the problem then I suspect the leadership will toe the line (presuming, of course, those aren't their own policies already). I'm betting that those whites who can leave will continue to do so & those who can't will bunker down & hope. A sad state of affairs, but perhaps closer to what most of us thought would happen in the 90s than we now remember. A tragedy for the RSA & southern Africa.

bigross86
09 Apr 10,, 10:06
Unfortunately, with Julius Malema almost definitely going to be the next leader unless something drastic happens, things do not look good.

2 days ago Malema kicked BBC reporter Jonah Fisher out of a press conference while calling him a "bastard", an "agent" and telling him he had white tendencies.

Mihais
09 Apr 10,, 10:35
Bigfella,I start what I hope is not my final word with you by reminding that I have no personal qualms with anyone in general and with you in particular.I didn't mean to sound derogatory to gays and I stood corrected when Astralis mentioned it.I didn't knew it was derogatory and it won't happen again.I only mentioned them because I know their cause is dear to you.The Afrikaners' cause is equally dear to me.

Like everyone(heck,even I:rolleyes:) mentioned,Terreblanche's actions were wrong and worse,they were mistakes.And yes,I actually read the history of AWB.At least Jani Allan was a hot one in her younger days:biggrin:
IF the sole response to the murder would have came from AWB,I would have agreed with you that the man making such a statement was a fringe loon.But it is not the case.Because ETB was a bit more than a racist.He was a notorious individual and he was also typical for many Boers (his political views aside).The widespread response is the result of his notoriety,not because of some widespread sympathy for AWB's policies.The protester you criticised may have belonged to a fringe movement.But that particular opinion(and maybe,only that one)was also representative for the feelings of a much larger segment of the white community.You may dismiss him as a racist,but I think it is wrong to dismiss him as part of a larger whole.

And I actually agree with you that SA whites prospects are grim(the rest of the country will follow).But standing for them,even on a discussion board if not possible otherwise is the right thing to do.The world may not agree or may not care,but the world also let many wrongs happen.Maybe it is a lost cause,but my view is to do what is right and keep a last bullet for yourself.

crooks
09 Apr 10,, 21:40
Terreblanche and his genuinely fascist ilk are detestable, and the kind of people I remember carrying a sign against when I was a kid (Parents were bigtime Anti-Apartheid activists here), but murder is murder - there are far better ways to deal with witheld wages than hacking someone to death, and for the sake of South African unity and equality let's hope this become a lesson for everyone.

Replacing Apartheid with Tyranny of the majority is equally bad in a different way - South Africa has made an incredible amount of progress in the last few years, I just hope it continues to move towards full racial equality, for all, not just towards another system of totalitarianism.

It reminds me of the old quote from the Easter 1916 Proclamation 'To cherish all children of the nation equally'....that's all a country should do, equal in the law, equal before each other, and if race truly doesn't matter then these men will be jailed for murder and in future wage witholders will be challenged by a Union or a Court.

cyppok
11 Apr 10,, 13:14
My feeling is the following if South Africa abrogates the rule of law in respect to economic interests against large holders there will be at least an attempt to either secede or embroil a country in a banana republic civil war in order to keep control over those economic interests.

I am not talking about farmers but more along the lines of Anglo-American, De-Beers, and similar powerbrokers... I look at it in the following way if those are "expropriated" de-facto and/or de-jure by act or policy ergo redistribution of profits etc,... outside factors come into play, it would be viable for foreign interests to pay and support a seceding movement (this is extremely unlikely but possible). Think about it from their point of view you hold mining interests in the billions of dollars that throw off billions annually, how much would you be willing to spend to keep them? and how would you go about it?...

The catalyst is very simple government deficit gets too large, and attempt is made to sieze the working capital of very large global firms held within the confines of the country. :redface: I just like theorizing :)

also comes into the consideration the reorganization of South African military and the dominance of private security firms, language differences, and regional-ethnic differences, for a large commercial concern it is far better to have a stable predictable and completely controlled government.

Boer
11 Apr 10,, 20:30
This is interesting.... PACYL threatens to kill Malema: News24: South Africa: News (http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/PACYL-threatens-to-kill-Malema-20100326)

I actually think that they might do it. The PAC is one of those groups you do NOT mess with. And looks like they want Malema gone.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that it isn't just black vs white over here. The ANC is making enemies. Easy to do in a country with 11 or 13 national languages.

sappersgt
11 Apr 10,, 21:58
I guess the point I am trying to make is that it isn't just black vs white over here. The ANC is making enemies. Easy to do in a country with 11 or 13 national languages.

Welcome To Africa! That's the way it's always been, factionalism at it's best.:rolleyes:

bigross86
11 Apr 10,, 22:21
First time I read that, I thought it said "fascism at it's best", something which also makes a little bit of sense

Bigfella
12 Apr 10,, 09:23
This is interesting.... PACYL threatens to kill Malema: News24: South Africa: News (http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/PACYL-threatens-to-kill-Malema-20100326)

I actually think that they might do it. The PAC is one of those groups you do NOT mess with. And looks like they want Malema gone.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that it isn't just black vs white over here. The ANC is making enemies. Easy to do in a country with 11 or 13 national languages.


Wow. There's a blast from the past. Haven't heard much about the PAC since the late 80s. I remember they were one of the bogeymen held up as justification for continuing Apartheid - I think they were going to take over, kill all the whites & establish a Marxist state, or some such. This is the first I've heard of them since majority rule - look to me like they are desperate for a little attention.

(Boer, I'm not sure how well this illustrates your point about 'making enemies'. I'm not aware that the ANC & PAC have ever been that friendly).

Boer
12 Apr 10,, 14:08
Thousands at Terre'Blanche funeral: News24: South Africa: News (http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Thousands-at-TerreBlanche-funeral-20100409)

I see that Zuma finally stood up agains Malema. Malema warned of 'consequences': News24: South Africa: Politics (http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Politics/Malema-warned-of-consequences-20100410)

But I wonder if it has something to do with his visit to the USA. Maybe Pres. Obama told him something regarding the fact the South Africa build nukes. SA lauded on nuclear stance: News24: South Africa (http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/SA-lauded-on-nuclear-stance-20100412)

Does someone from USA maybe have more info?

Boer
12 Apr 10,, 14:11
(Boer, I'm not sure how well this illustrates your point about 'making enemies'. I'm not aware that the ANC & PAC have ever been that friendly).

Yeah, but at least they lived peacefully with each other. Until now

Bigfella
12 Apr 10,, 14:31
Yeah, but at least they lived peacefully with each other. Until now

OK, but even assuming that ceases to be the case (and it hasn't yet) it is also implicit in your statement that it is the ANC's fault. Might not the PAC be as much or more to blame?

This appears to be about the next generation of black leadership in the RSA. My reading (which could always be wrong) is that the PAC has been declining to nothing since the mid-90s & is desperately trying to get some sort of traction. This sort of thing gets them attention & draws attention to their great shining moment - the pass laws protests. I'm also guessing they'll try to ramp up anti-white/anti-Boer sentiment in an attempt to get support from angry blacks who may not be seeing the benefits of majority rule. They might try to assert some historical claim to the more radical position. This would obviously be much worse news for whites than for the ANC.

Bigfella
13 Apr 10,, 09:39
I think its fair to say nobody expected this. It would certainly be a bizarre irony. Obviously ETB's supporters will never accept it, I'll wait to see what the evidence says.


Police investigate homosexual link in Terreblanche killing

South African police are investigating whether there was a link between homosexual sex and the murder of far-Right leader Eugene Terreblanche at him farm.

Sebastien Berger In Johannesburg
Published: 9:25PM BST 11 Apr 2010

Police had earlier said a pay dispute led to the killing of Eugene Terreblanche. Puna Moroko, the lawyer for Chris Mahlangu, 28, the elder of two people accused of the killing, said that "something shocking happened on that day".

A police spokesman confirmed that was among possibilities being investigated. Police had earlier said a pay dispute had led to the killing of Mr Terreblanche, on the political margins since his efforts to preserve apartheid in the early 1990s.

"We are not going to focus on one thing," said Musa Zondi of the Hawks investigative unit, adding that a sexual link was among the many accusations being made over the case.

"We will investigate all pertinent facts that have a bearing on the matter," he said.

General Jan Mabula, head of the Hawks in the North West Province, said the suspects' clothes were to be examined as part of checks into whether there was a sexual link.

Mr Terreblanche, the leader of the Afrikaner Resistance Movement (AWB), was hacked and battered to death on April 3 and found with his trousers pulled down after a murder that has showed up the racial strains in South Africa

Mr Terreblanche, 69, was married with a daughter and the idea that he might have been homosexual – and in a physical relationship with a black person – stands contrary to everything he espoused during his life.

He was a member of the Afrikaner Protestant Church, a conservative Christian group which had to lift a ban on Africans entering its premises to allow black journalists to cover his funeral on Friday.

His Afrikaner Resistance Movement reacted with fury to the allegations. Its new leader Steyn van Ronge described them as "unbelievable and completely untrue".

Police investigate homosexual link in Terreblanche killing - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/southafrica/7578844/Police-investigate-homosexual-link-in-Terreblanche-killing.html)

Boer
13 Apr 10,, 11:57
I think its fair to say nobody expected this. It would certainly be a bizarre irony. Obviously ETB's supporters will never accept it, I'll wait to see what the evidence says.

Well, I wasn't such a big supporter of ETB but I am a bit upset about this. Personally I think that the media has got the cat by the tail here so to speak. At the moment all the news papers over here has their own theories and stories. But like you said, we will wait and see what the evidence says.

Bigfella
13 Apr 10,, 23:02
Well, I wasn't such a big supporter of ETB but I am a bit upset about this. Personally I think that the media has got the cat by the tail here so to speak. At the moment all the news papers over here has their own theories and stories. But like you said, we will wait and see what the evidence says.


Boer,

As I understand it the theory has been put forward by the defence itself, so I'm not really sure you can blame the media. If you ran a media outlet you'd report it too.

Just curious, what specifically are you 'upset' about?

Boer
14 Apr 10,, 06:47
Boer,

As I understand it the theory has been put forward by the defence itself, so I'm not really sure you can blame the media. If you ran a media outlet you'd report it too.

Just curious, what specifically are you 'upset' about?

There are ALOT of news papers here. One said that a used condoms was found next to the bed. The other news paper said that he tried to make sexual advances on them and that they killed him in self defense. None of the news papers had the same info or evidence. THe one news paper even stated that the the 15 year old was raped. I don't know where they got their info for but it's confusing to people. If they had evedince to support their claims then yeah sure. If he made sexual passes at them and they killed him because of that or whatever then I'm fine with that. Just don't like it when they run with like 20 different stories with no evidence.

If you look at News24, South Africa's premier news source, provides breaking news on national, world, Africa, sport, entertainment, technology & more. (http://www.news24.co.za) you will see what I'm getting at.

The trail is starting again this morning and on the radio it said that both suspects deny claims of sex being involved and say it was a man-to-man fight about money.

So I'm freaking confused. :confused:

Boer
14 Apr 10,, 06:59
YouTube - Eugene Terreblanche - his last interview with SABC3 Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaOfZVLaHgQ)

This was ETB's last interview with the media but was shown for the first time last night

There are 3 parts and it's not that good quaity but it has english subtitles.

Bigfella
14 Apr 10,, 10:19
There are ALOT of news papers here. One said that a used condoms was found next to the bed. The other news paper said that he tried to make sexual advances on them and that they killed him in self defense. None of the news papers had the same info or evidence. THe one news paper even stated that the the 15 year old was raped. I don't know where they got their info for but it's confusing to people. If they had evedince to support their claims then yeah sure. If he made sexual passes at them and they killed him because of that or whatever then I'm fine with that. Just don't like it when they run with like 20 different stories with no evidence.

If you look at News24, South Africa's premier news source, provides breaking news on national, world, Africa, sport, entertainment, technology & more. (http://www.news24.co.za) you will see what I'm getting at.

The trail is starting again this morning and on the radio it said that both suspects deny claims of sex being involved and say it was a man-to-man fight about money.

So I'm freaking confused. :confused:

Guess we'll have to wait for the trial.

Boer
15 Apr 10,, 13:19
Check this out. lol

News - South Africa: 'Black Boer' defends white AWB*(Page 1 of 2) (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20100414123803808C186545)

Bigfella
15 Apr 10,, 13:46
Check this out. lol

News - South Africa: 'Black Boer' defends white AWB*(Page 1 of 2) (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20100414123803808C186545)

Just shows the great diversity of human opinion. I'm guessing that you could put all the black Sth Africans who share his opinion in single room (or at best a few).

Unfortuantely for those who share ETB's vision of a Afrikaaner/Boer nation, it looks like those who support the idea would struggle to fill a town. There are vastly larger tribes all over Africa who have never had & will never have their own nation. Based on history & current events I don't see those Boers or Afrikaaners who want this as being big enough, lucky enough or strong enough to join the few who have.


South Africa's right-wing whites

The laager is almost derelict

The ideas of a murdered racist leader are almost dead too

Apr 8th 2010 | VENTERSDORP | From The Economist print edition

OUTSIDE the magistrates’ court in Ventersdorp, a one-horse town in the rural north of the country, where two black men were accused of murdering Eugene Terre’Blanche, the leader of South Africa’s far-right Afrikaner Resistance Movement, stood a small stand decked out in the blue, white and orange colours of the country’s apartheid-era flag (see article). The people manning it, from another Afrikaner outfit with similar views to Mr Terre’Blanche’s, were collecting registrations for an all-white election next year. Once an assembly has been chosen, it will ask the country’s government to give them a separate homeland for the volk, descendants of the mainly Dutch pioneers who trekked north from the British-run Cape Colony in the early 19th century.

“You must be part of our people, our cultural identity” in order to take part, says Paul Kruger, a proponent of the homeland idea. “It’s not about skin colour,” he adds with a straight face. “It’s about ethnicity.” White Afrikaans-speaking Protestants can automatically join. But if any blacks, Coloureds (as South Africa’s 4.4m people of mixed race are known) or Catholic whites ask to register, “the people must decide whether such applicants are part of the people or not”. So far none has done so. After a year, fewer than 30,000 people have enrolled. South Africa’s white population is around 4.5m in a total of 49m.

That shows how fast the far-right has fizzled out. In the last whites-only poll, in 1992, more than 875,000 white South Africans voted no in a referendum on reforms that would lead to a multiracial democracy two years later. Nearly 2m whites said yes. By the time of his death Mr Terre’Blanche, who once embodied the threat of a race war in South Africa, was a fringe ideologue, more of a figure of ridicule than of terror after serving a prison sentence for trying to murder a black security guard, and falling off his horse at a rally. Last year, when he sought to relaunch the Afrikaner Resistance Movement (better known by its Afrikaans initials, AWB), only a few hundred people turned up. Steyn van Ronge, its new leader, says that “thousands” of people have applied to join since Mr Terre’Blanche’s death but declines to reveal how many members the AWB now has. Its supporters’ blood-curdling rhetoric after the murder was quickly retracted, replaced with promises of non-violence.

Most whites, including Afrikaners, who still make up more than half the white total, now back the Democratic Alliance (DA), the biggest opposition party, while another 147,000 plumped for the Freedom Front Plus, a mainly Afrikaner outfit, in last year’s poll. Some irreconcilables refuse to vote at all. The New National Party, which succeeded the old one that had run the show under apartheid since 1948, announced in 2004 that it would merge with the ruling African National Congress (ANC), enabling its head, Marthinus van Schalkwyk, to join the cabinet. But he failed to take his former voters with him. Nowadays maybe 15% of whites—a mix of old liberals and radicals and young whites who like the ruling party’s officially non-racist, non-sexist stance—back the ANC.

Most South Africans still vote for people with whom they most easily identify, partly on the basis of race. That puts the DA in a tricky position. In last year’s general election it got 17% of the vote, four percentage points more than in 2004. But it is still widely seen as a party for whites and Coloureds, and is still failing to make big inroads among black voters.

Mr Kruger is among the irreconcilables who refuse to vote at all. “I don’t want to legitimise the process of my right to self-determination being trampled,” he says. Few whites these days agree.

South Africa's right-wing whites: The laager is almost derelict | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/world/middle-east/displaystory.cfm?story_id=15871926)