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gunnut
05 Mar 10,, 18:41
2010 Consumer Reports New-Car Best Value List - MSN Autos (http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=1132687)



2010 Consumer Reports New-Car Best Value List

The Honda Fit and the Toyota Prius top the list of new-car best values.

By the Editors of Consumer Reports

The Honda Fit and the Toyota Prius topped the list of new-car best values according to Consumer Reports' 2010 Annual Auto Issue, beating out more than 280 cars in eight categories.

The Honda Fit and the Toyota Prius each earned a value score of 2.08 and provided the best overall value despite being very different cars. Scores are expressed in relation to the value of the average vehicle (designated 1.00). A score of 2.00 represents twice the value of the average model. While the Prius IV ($26,750) is more expensive than the Honda Fit ($16,020) and has a higher cost per mile (47 cents vs. 42), the Prius performed notably better in Consumer Reports' battery of road tests, earning a score of 80 versus the Fit's 68. Both cars have excellent reliability.

To determine which cars are the best values, Consumer Reports looked at a combination of performance, utility, and reliability for the money, considering total owner costs over the first five-years.

The better a car performs in Consumer Reports' road tests and reliability Ratings and the less it costs to own, the greater its value.

Consumer Reports identified the best and worst values among the hundreds of vehicles it has tested in eight vehicle categories:

gunnut
05 Mar 10,, 18:45
It's one thing to produce cars with the least value, but a whole 'nother thing to come and dominate the field like how Chrysler does.:tongue:

Doomarias
06 Mar 10,, 02:13
Least there aren't Fords on the bottom. The fiesta should make it to the top 10 when it comes out.

Parihaka
06 Mar 10,, 07:12
the Hyundai Santa Fe is an excellent beast

TopHatter
06 Mar 10,, 07:17
Least there aren't Fords on the bottom. The fiesta should make it to the top 10 when it comes out.

Ford is quite possibly moving into Toyota's position when it comes to quality.


Dumb idiots decided to be the biggest car company on the planet. Genius move Einsteins! Now how about figuring your way out of this colossal MESS you're in!

Gun Grape
06 Mar 10,, 16:56
Ford is quite possibly moving into Toyota's position when it comes to quality.


Dumb idiots decided to be the biggest car company on the planet. Genius move Einsteins! Now how about figuring your way out of this colossal MESS you're in!

They can quit buying parts from American companies, and shut down the US manufacturing plants.

If you saw the President of Toyota before congress, thats pretty much what he told Congress the problem was. Just in a diplomatic, japanese sort of way that went right over most of the committee members heads.

I'm a long time Toyota owner. I only buy ones that are made in Japan. Had one that was made in America and was highly disappointed in it. That does limit my selection, but I have a good dealer that will get me a Japanese model.

tankie
06 Mar 10,, 17:08
Im sticking with my merc slk , or trade it for an sl 500 AMG model ;)

TopHatter
06 Mar 10,, 17:39
They can quit buying parts from American companies, and shut down the US manufacturing plants.
And they'll further lose their standing here in the U.S. as being able to claim "Made In America By Americans"



I'm a long time Toyota owner. I only buy ones that are made in Japan. Had one that was made in America and was highly disappointed in it. That does limit my selection, but I have a good dealer that will get me a Japanese model.

My father sold Toyotas for several years and both my mother and father own '93 and '94 Camrys, both with a couple hundred thousand miles on them.

Obviously Toyota's are quality cars...or were, until production was ramped up faster than their quality could keep up with it.

Another example of setting your core competency aside in favor of wanting to be something you're not.

chakos
06 Mar 10,, 18:22
A Toyota Prius is a family car? I thought that was well and truly a small car. You Yanks must have different standards over there.

Thats not a family car....

This is a family car :biggrin:

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If 317KW wasnt enough to take the kiddies to school in... try 470kw :biggrin:

And thats at $117k AUD, less than $100k US.

Even the entry level 6 cylinder 35k POS has just under 200kw :cool:

Now take your hippy tree hugging, fuel conserving, demasculating, embaressing Prius out the back paddock and shoot it :P

Gun Grape
06 Mar 10,, 19:30
And they'll further lose their standing here in the U.S. as being able to claim "Made In America By Americans"

Mose people I know, see that as an old tired union label from the 70s and 80s.

Toyota wouldn't lose their standing because of it. They would be back to selling quality.

I want quality. Don't care where its made.

They started buying American parts and it bit them in the ass.

But notice that all the other manufacturers are having major recalls. Its only news that Toyota is because its not the norm. GM, Chrysler and Ford are having million car recalls. No big deal it happens all the time with them.

It seems even Congress is holding Toyota to a higher standard.

Gun Grape
06 Mar 10,, 19:32
A Toyota Prius is a family car? I thought that was well and truly a small car. You Yanks must have different standards over there.

Thats not a family car....

This is a family car :biggrin:

If 317KW wasnt enough to take the kiddies to school in... try 470kw :biggrin:

And thats at $117k AUD, less than $100k US.

Even the entry level 6 cylinder 35k POS has just under 200kw :cool:

Now take your hippy tree hugging, fuel conserving, demasculating, embaressing Prius out the back paddock and shoot it :P

Notice they listed the Mini Cooper as a sports car:rolleyes:

chakos
06 Mar 10,, 20:49
Notice they listed the Mini Cooper as a sports car:rolleyes:

*vomits*

Dont get me wrong.. its a 'cute' car and its fun to drive... i came very close to buying one once (didnt because it was tiny, impractical, expensive for what it was and i would need to visit a chiro weekly its ergonomics where so bad) but i wouldnt go so far as to call it a sports car.

There should really be 2 categories 'Sports car' and 'Sporty car*'

*read: cars better suited to be driven by hairdressers called Serge

TopHatter
06 Mar 10,, 21:25
Mose people I know, see that as an old tired union label from the 70s and 80s.For some reason it's acquired a new cachet since 2008.


I want quality. Don't care where its made.As do I, always have.

And since so many American cars are loaded with foreign components and/or are assembled in foreign countries, I fail to see how they're considered to "American" cars.


They started buying American parts and it bit them in the ass.So it's been conclusively proven that American parts are at fault here then?


But notice that all the other manufacturers are having major recalls. Its only news that Toyota is because its not the norm. GM, Chrysler and Ford are having million car recalls. No big deal it happens all the time with them.If you're going to announce a recall, now would be a good time to do it, with the world preoccupied by Toyota.

And, as you said, it happens all the time, but nobody pays any attention. Except in this case there've been dozens of deaths resulting from Toyota's problems.


It seems even Congress is holding Toyota to a higher standard.

Yeah, nothing like the smell of blood (literally) to hold somebody accountable.

Gun Grape
06 Mar 10,, 21:51
So it's been conclusively proven that American parts are at fault here then?

The brake assys and the drive train problems with the tacomas were American bought sub assemblies


If you're going to announce a recall, now would be a good time to do it, with the world preoccupied by Toyota.

And, as you said, it happens all the time, but nobody pays any attention. Except in this case there've been dozens of deaths resulting from Toyota's problems.

Yeah, nothing like the smell of blood (literally) to hold somebody accountable.

Its Congress's new bailout program for GM. Make the other companies look bad.

A possible 50 deaths, some possibly caused by people pushing the brake and gas pedal at the same time(I think we have all done that at least once), out of more than a million vehicles isn't a major problem. Its about the same number that was attributed to the Ford Pinto gas fires. Only over the entire lineup vice one model.

Officer of Engineers
06 Mar 10,, 21:54
A Toyota Prius is a family car? I thought that was well and truly a small car. You Yanks must have different standards over there.

Thats not a family car....

This is a family car :biggrin:

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If 317KW wasnt enough to take the kiddies to school in... try 470kw :biggrin:

And thats at $117k AUD, less than $100k US.

Even the entry level 6 cylinder 35k POS has just under 200kw :cool:

Now take your hippy tree hugging, fuel conserving, demasculating, embaressing Prius out the back paddock and shoot it :PI see you haven't tried to put a screaming kid who don't want to go in and had just vomitted the chocolate ice cream all over the front seat. There's a reason I stop driving a Mustang and five mini-vans since then.

chakos
06 Mar 10,, 22:24
I see you haven't tried to put a screaming kid who don't want to go in and had just vomitted the chocolate ice cream all over the front seat. There's a reason I stop driving a Mustang and five mini-vans since then.

Thats why the seats are leather...vomit wipes right off :biggrin:

These monsters are popular in Australia as family cars... not so much the ultra performance models (expensive) but the base variants (V6 or V8, between 190 and 295kw) are still selling well.

We arn't a rational lot down here :cool:

bigross86
06 Mar 10,, 23:03
I don't understand the people who buy 2 seater Holden Utes with the cover on the pickup bed in back. You can't fit anyone in the car, and can't really put anything in the bed because of the solid cover. And they buy these damn things in purple! Seriously!

chakos
06 Mar 10,, 23:18
I don't understand the people who buy 2 seater Holden Utes with the cover on the pickup bed in back. You can't fit anyone in the car, and can't really put anything in the bed because of the solid cover. And they buy these damn things in purple! Seriously!

You buy them because you absolutelly must have a 300kw+ monster with bugger all weight out back to do better burnouts with.

Australia has a real tradesmans culture, a ute is what a real Aussie tradie drives. So it was only a matter of time before someone crossed a ute with a sportscar and came up with the 'brute ute'.

Purple i cant explain... maybe a yuppy who bought one to impress the ladies with his manliness who got it so terribly terribly wrong.

bigross86
06 Mar 10,, 23:27
I wish it was only purple, but you see them in light green, orange, red, neon blue, etc... Maybe it's just up in Queensland, but I drove a 2009 Hyundai Sonata, and every time one of these punks passed me in one these matchbox cars going 160 kmh on a 2 lane highway on a solid white line, I wanted to beat the shite out of them. And I managed to get the Sonata up to 185kmh (under illegal but still controlled circumstances: really long empty stretch of Bruce Highway at 3:30 AM), so catching them wouldn't be a problem.

But I digress: Brute Ute's are annoying.

Parihaka
06 Mar 10,, 23:48
But I digress: Brute Ute's are annoying.
Australians have lost their way and are getting gayer and gayer: there is only one true Holden, and that is the station wagon. When the body rusts off, just weld some corrugated iron over the gaps...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3055/2560224900_af31d220b7.jpg

chakos
06 Mar 10,, 23:50
I wish it was only purple, but you see them in light green, orange, red, neon blue, etc... Maybe it's just up in Queensland, but I drove a 2009 Hyundai Sonata, and every time one of these punks passed me in one these matchbox cars going 160 kmh on a 2 lane highway on a solid white line, I wanted to beat the shite out of them. And I managed to get the Sonata up to 185kmh (under illegal but still controlled circumstances: really long empty stretch of Bruce Highway at 3:30 AM), so catching them wouldn't be a problem.

But I digress: Brute Ute's are annoying.

I agree completelly, they are annoying... only 160 though? Dissapointing, but when you think about it, how fast would you take a vehicle with little to no arse weight. Good for a straight line but it definatelly doesnt like these things called corners (or bends, or even gentle curves)

bigross86
07 Mar 10,, 00:00
Australians have lost their way and are getting gayer and gayer: there is only one true Holden, and that is the station wagon. When the body rusts off, just weld some corrugated iron over the gaps...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3055/2560224900_af31d220b7.jpg

Saw that when I was at Te Papa. Saw this one as well:

Britten V1000 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britten_V1000)

TopHatter
07 Mar 10,, 00:08
The brake assys and the drive train problems with the tacomas were American bought sub assembliesOK. That covers the Tacoma recall (which I'd not heard of until now).


Its Congress's new bailout program for GM. Make the other companies look bad.Sorry, I'm not buying that one just yet. It's a popular war cry but GM is hardly the only car company out there.


A possible 50 deaths, some possibly caused by people pushing the brake and gas pedal at the same time(I think we have all done that at least once), out of more than a million vehicles isn't a major problem. Its about the same number that was attributed to the Ford Pinto gas fires. Only over the entire lineup vice one model.

And because of that, Ford was dragged into the court of public of opinion (at the very least) and had the hell beat out it so badly so today simply saying "Ford Pinto" evokes grimaces and grim smirks of derision. So what's your point? Oh yeah that Toyota being treated unfairly? So far I haven't seen 50 funerals caused by GM. Not that I give a hang about GM mind you, they're almost as much of a joke as Chrysler

Stan187
07 Mar 10,, 00:20
Australians have lost their way and are getting gayer and gayer: there is only one true Holden, and that is the station wagon. When the body rusts off, just weld some corrugated iron over the gaps...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3055/2560224900_af31d220b7.jpg

Crikey, that thing looks like its drove out of the Thunderdome!

Gun Grape
07 Mar 10,, 03:12
OK. That covers the Tacoma recall (which I'd not heard of until now).

The brake assys are fleet wide. Drive train was only Tacoma with the cracked front drive shafts being American made.



Sorry, I'm not buying that one just yet. It's a popular war cry but GM is hardly the only car company out there.

It was meant as a sarcastic comment.:redface:




And because of that, Ford was dragged into the court of public of opinion (at the very least) and had the hell beat out it so badly so today simply saying "Ford Pinto" evokes grimaces and grim smirks of derision. So what's your point? Oh yeah that Toyota being treated unfairly? So far I haven't seen 50 funerals caused by GM. Not that I give a hang about GM mind you, they're almost as much of a joke as Chrysler

My point was that Toyota has had far less deaths that may possibly be caused by this problem fleet wide than the singular example of a small production (10 yr run, 2 million cars) run Pinto.

Last year Toyota had their lowest production run in 5 years at 6.5 million.

Less than 50 deaths caused by a single problem in 70 million cars produced over 10 years isn't a major failure. Even by Six Sigma Standards.

Toyota is being pounced on because we expect them to be better quality than we do American cars. If not all the manufacturers would be sitting before Congress with the massive recalls that are going on now.

Parihaka
07 Mar 10,, 07:56
Saw that when I was at Te Papa. Saw this one as well:

Britten V1000 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britten_V1000)

For some reason when he died his wife simply wound up the company. They could have easily sold 10,000 of them but she just wasn't interested and she wouldn't allow his friends an associates to continue their production. Go figure.

gunnut
07 Mar 10,, 10:07
I have some questions about the Toyota recall. What exactly is the problem? How many incidences are we talking about here? How many Toyotas are on the road? Has anyone been able to replicate the problem?

This all sounds like a witch hunt, against the biggest and most successful car company. The conspiracy theorist in me would say that the federal government has a vested interest in this case since it owns GM now.

highsea
08 Mar 10,, 01:07
I have some questions about the Toyota recall. What exactly is the problem? How many incidences are we talking about here? How many Toyotas are on the road? Has anyone been able to replicate the problem?There are several. The one that seems to be getting the most attention is the "sudden unintended acceleration".

They first replaced the floor mats, saying they were jamming the accelerator pedal. If you drive a toyota you are supposed to put the driver's side mat in the trunk.

Then they added a shim to the pedal assembly to reduce friction.

Now they are focusing their attention on the electronic throttle control system.

It affects a huge number of cars both toyota and lexus, over about 12-13 production years.

They are adding a brake override switch in some of the models, so if the ETCS goes nuts the brake pedal will kick it out.

But as of now, no one really knows what is causing the sudden acceleration problem.

ArmchairGeneral
08 Mar 10,, 01:59
But as of now, no one really knows what is causing the sudden acceleration problem.

I seem to remember a big brouhaha over unintended acceleration a few years ago, maybe it was Buick? Turned out to be just people stepping on the gas instead of the brake. I suppose they've ruled that out for sure?

gunnut
08 Mar 10,, 07:22
I have a Lexus. Never had a problem with it.

My brother has 4 Toyotas/Lexuses, stretching from early 1990s Previa to the brand new RX350. I've never heard him mention anything in over half a million miles combined in those cars.

None of my friends who have Toyota/Lexus/Scion have ever had anything like this "sudden acceleration syndrome."

Rumrunner
08 Mar 10,, 14:32
I have a Lexus. Never had a problem with it.

My brother has 4 Toyotas/Lexuses, stretching from early 1990s Previa to the brand new RX350. I've never heard him mention anything in over half a million miles combined in those cars.

None of my friends who have Toyota/Lexus/Scion have ever had anything like this "sudden acceleration syndrome."

I have an 05 Corolla, my dad has a 07 Highlander and my brother has an 09 Corolla. No problems with any of them. My first car was a used 92 Corolla that by the time I got it (youngest in the fam) it was at least 5th-hand. Ran that thing through 120K miles before i had the trunk removed in an intersection. My dad's 93 Camry went 167K with only 1 clutch replacement with three different people driving stick on it, and two people, myself included learning how to drive stick on it.

I'm inclined to agree with GG though, this whole toyota-bashing of late seems to be a case of 'how the mighty have fallen' at a time when GM is circling the drain and other companies are competeing for US Market share and vehicle standards in areas Toyota has either dominated or been top-3 ranked.

Parihaka
08 Mar 10,, 18:31
It seemed to start with that family in California who zoomed down a motorway for 3 miles before crashing at an intersection. Whatever the faults with the lexus, I was amazed neither the off-duty cop driving nor the dispatcher he was talking to thought of turning off the motor, or switching into neutral.

Parihaka
08 Mar 10,, 18:33
I have a Lexus. Never had a problem with it.

My brother has 4 Toyotas/Lexuses, stretching from early 1990s Previa to the brand new RX350. I've never heard him mention anything in over half a million miles combined in those cars.

None of my friends who have Toyota/Lexus/Scion have ever had anything like this "sudden acceleration syndrome."

my problem is getting the phuking thing to accelerate fast enough...

bfng3569
09 Mar 10,, 19:56
My point was that Toyota has had far less deaths that may possibly be caused by this problem fleet wide than the singular example of a small production (10 yr run, 2 million cars) run Pinto.


Toyota is being pounced on because we expect them to be better quality than we do American cars. If not all the manufacturers would be sitting before Congress with the massive recalls that are going on now.

Pintos?

what year are we talking about here.....?

they are being pounced on because cars that accelerate on there own are pretty dangerous, dont you think?

they are being pounced becuase people have died because of it.

and they are being pounced on because it seems they were both slow to react to it and quick defelct blame esle where.

i also seem to recall something a year or two ago? about ford explorer's tires exploding, and i seem to recall that getting quite a bit of negative press, yet i dont remember anyone crying unfair media/government treatment.

i dont see where Toyota is being pounced on for anything more than anyone else has been.

bfng3569
09 Mar 10,, 19:58
Now they are focusing their attention on the electronic throttle control system.

It affects a huge number of cars both toyota and lexus, over about 12-13 production years.

They are adding a brake override switch in some of the models, so if the ETCS goes nuts the brake pedal will kick it out.

But as of now, no one really knows what is causing the sudden acceleration problem.

who makes these things,,,,

Airbus......?

;)

gunnut
09 Mar 10,, 20:22
It's a good time for other companies to recall their cars right now...:biggrin:



GM to recall 1.3 million Chevrolet Cobalts and other compacts to fix power steering problem

Associated Press

Last update: March 2, 2010 - 6:14 AM

DETROIT - General Motors Co. is recalling 1.3 million Chevrolet and Pontiac compact cars sold in the U.S., Canada and Mexico to fix power steering motors that can fail.

The recall affects 2005 to 2010 Chevrolet Cobalts, 2007 to 2010 Pontiac G5s, 2005 and 2006 Pontiac Pursuits sold in Canada and 2005 and 2006 Pontiac G4s sold in Mexico.

The automaker said Monday the vehicles are still safe to drive and never lose their steering, but it may be harder to steer them when traveling under 15 mph.

GM spokesman Alan Adler said it will take time for the automaker to get 1.3 million new power steering motors from the supplier, JTEKT Corp., and GM will notify car owners when the parts are available.

Adler said the failures are rare and the cars can still be driven until motors can be replaced by dealers. Drivers will see a warning light and hear a chime if the power steering fails, but they could be surprised when the steering becomes more difficult.

GM told the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration about the recall on Monday. NHTSA began an investigation into 905,000 of the models on Jan. 27 after getting 1,100 complaints that the cars lost their power steering assist. The complaints included 14 crashes and one injury.

The automaker will fix older models first because it usually takes 20,000 to 30,000 miles of driving for the condition to develop, Adler said. GM also will have to repair thousands of vehicles on dealer lots before they can be sold, he said.

"Recalling these vehicles is the right thing to do for our customers' peace of mind," Jamie Hresko, GM's vice president of quality, said in a statement.

Adler said if the power steering assist fails, it usually comes back for a time after the car is shut off and restarted.

The recall comes at a time of heightened interest in auto safety after sudden acceleration problems experienced in some Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles.

Toyota has had to recall 8.5 million vehicles worldwide to fix problems with sticky gas pedals, floor mats that can snag the gas pedal and cause unintended acceleration, and brake software problems with the Prius gas-electric hybrid.

Toyota executives have been summoned to testify before congressional committees investigating the company's actions and whether NHTSA did enough to make sure the Toyotas are safe.


GM to recall 1.3 million Chevrolet Cobalts and other compacts to fix power steering problem | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/business/85900807.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD 3aPc:_Yyc:aUUF)

gunnut
09 Mar 10,, 20:30
Pintos?

what year are we talking about here.....?

they are being pounced on because cars that accelerate on there own are pretty dangerous, dont you think?

Have you ever experienced this? Have you ever conducted tests and found conclusive evidences that Toyota is at fault? Have you even heard 2nd hand information that this has happened?



they are being pounced becuase people have died because of it.

People died more likely due to bad drivers. You've seen them on the road. I see them every single day. But I have never seen a Toyota that can't stop on the road.



and they are being pounced on because it seems they were both slow to react to it and quick defelct blame esle where.

They couldn't find the problem. No one could.



i also seem to recall something a year or two ago? about ford explorer's tires exploding, and i seem to recall that getting quite a bit of negative press, yet i dont remember anyone crying unfair media/government treatment.

I did. I asked my friend the same questions (he believed Firestone tires were at fault) I'm asking you now. I asked if he had ever seen an Explorer flip. I asked if he had ever witnessed Firestone tires explode. I asked if he even knew of someone who had this happen to them. He couldn't answer these questions but firmly believed Firestone was at fault.

Firestone tires did exactly what they were supposed to do. Those were grade C tires Ford used to cut down cost. Ford also lowered the recommended tire pressure to lower the center of mass on an unstable truck. Stupid American drivers handle a truck the same way they handle a sedan. All these factors contributed to some unfortunate accidents.



i dont see where Toyota is being pounced on for anything more than anyone else has been.

The Fed owns GM now. Guess who's driving this witch hunt?

Parihaka
09 Mar 10,, 21:01
(Reuters) - Toyota Motor Corp (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6260DA20100309?feedType=nl&feedName=usmorningdigest) said it had found no flaw with its throttle controls as it seeks to dismiss an external study critical of its electronic safety systems.


U.S.

The conclusions, announced at a news conference on Monday, marked an attempt by the automaker to reassure consumers it has safety issues under control. Toyota is working to win back sales seven weeks into a recall crisis that has tarnished its reputation.

But in developments that underscored the continuing pressure on Toyota, a Michigan judge ordered the automaker's top two U.S. executives to appear for a deposition and a congressional panel told it to surrender a 2006 memo from employees in Japan warning of risks to quality controls.

Toyota called its news conference to discredit what it said were mistaken conclusions being drawn from a study of its accelerator controls by David Gilbert, an auto engineering expert at Southern Illinois University.

Toyota has recalled more than 8 million vehicles worldwide for mechanical problems with its accelerator assembly that can cause sticking and for the risk that floormats could trap an accelerator.

Unintended acceleration in Toyota and Lexus vehicles has been linked to at least five U.S. crash deaths since 2007. Authorities are investigating 47 other crash deaths over the past decade.

The U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has also said it is looking into more recent complaints from drivers who say they suffered acceleration problems even after their vehicles were fixed in the recent recall effort.

Those complaints have been seen by some as further evidence that Toyota could face a problem with vehicle electronics or software that could go beyond the mechanical fixes it has announced under its recalls.

But Toyota spokesman Mike Michels said the automaker had found that post-recall accelerator complaints appeared to reflect a small number of cases where repairs at dealerships had not been performed correctly.

"We're confident in our electronic throttle control systems," Michels said.

TOYOTA: NO EVIDENCE OF FLAW

Gilbert told a congressional panel in late February that he had found a way to simulate a flaw in Toyota's accelerator controls so that the vehicle could surge forward without a fault code being generated for an onboard computer Toyota has designed as a safeguard.

But Toyota said an outside review of Gilbert's findings by a Stanford University expert and engineering consulting company Exponent had not found evidence that conditions described by Gilbert could occur in real-world driving.

Chris Gerdes, a professor of mechanical engineering at Stanford and director of the university's Center for Automotive Research, said Gilbert had essentially "rewired" Toyota's accelerator system to generate his results.

"Fundamentally, you cannot rewire a circuit and expect it to behave as designed," Gerdes told reporters.

Gilbert said he planned to visit Exponent's test facilities next week and expected to complete a review of the information it had presented in the next few weeks.

"I am pleased that further examination of these safety and acceleration issues is taking place, and I look forward to participating in this process," he said in an email to Reuters.

JUDGE ORDERS TOYOTA TESTIMONY

Toyota is facing dozens of lawsuits stemming from its recalls and both sides in that litigation have been working to line up expert witnesses.

Gilbert has received some funding from the Safety Research and Strategies, a safety advocacy that has in turn taken funding from trial lawyers with cases pending against Toyota.

For its part, Toyota has hired Exponent and has provided financial assistance to Stanford's auto safety center.

Toyota and Exponent said they were continuing to test other explanations for unintended acceleration that would go beyond the problems it has identified.

Separately on Monday, a Flint, Michigan area judge ordered Toyota's top two U.S. executives -- Yoshimi Inaba and Jim Lentz -- to appear for questioning for lawyers for the family of a woman who was killed in a Camry crash in 2008.

Guadalope Alberto died when her 2005 Camry surged out of control. Her family is suing Toyota. Lawyers for Toyota had argued that lower-level executives should be allowed to answer questions from Alberto's lawyer, but the judge ordered Lentz and Inaba to appear, said Hike Heiskell, a lawyer for the Alberto family.

Also on Monday, Rep. Edolphus Towns, a New York Democrat who chairs the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, asked Toyota to turn over a letter Toyota employees in Japan sent to management in 2006 detailing safety concerns. Towns made the request in a letter sent on Monday.

The October 2006 letter, addressed to then-president Katsuaki Watanabe from a splinter union called the All Toyota Labor Union in the wake of a recall scandal in Japan, had warned that a failure to address quality concerns could ultimately threaten the company's survival.

Among the causes of the quality slippage, the group blamed the fall in the number of experienced staff in favor of contract workers, the longer working hours and the aggressive pursuit of cost reductions.

The letter appeared on the 20-member union's website. Toyota had no immediate comment.

bfng3569
09 Mar 10,, 21:14
Have you ever experienced this? Have you ever conducted tests and found conclusive evidences that Toyota is at fault? Have you even heard 2nd hand information that this has happened??


and you know the answer to that.

How many stories get printed without conclusive evidence?

i havent followed enough of this to know since i dont know anyone that owns one, or own one myself.



People died more likely due to bad drivers. You've seen them on the road. I see them every single day. But I have never seen a Toyota that can't stop on the road.

have you done any studies to prove that it is bad drivers and not a fault with the car?



They couldn't find the problem. No one could..

so should the issue not get reported on? no investigation?



I did. I asked my friend the same questions (he believed Firestone tires were at fault) I'm asking you now. I asked if he had ever seen an Explorer flip. I asked if he had ever witnessed Firestone tires explode. I asked if he even knew of someone who had this happen to them. He couldn't answer these questions but firmly believed Firestone was at fault...

i have no idea, nor do i have any idea who was at fault. last i remember hearing, it was from the tired being over inflated.

the point being, i do certainly remember quite a bit of bad press for both, as much as toyota is getting now, i really couldnt say. but i dont hear any more about toyotas issues than i did about fireston/ford when that happend.



Firestone tires did exactly what they were supposed to do. Those were grade C tires Ford used to cut down cost. Ford also lowered the recommended tire pressure to lower the center of mass on an unstable truck. Stupid American drivers handle a truck the same way they handle a sedan. All these factors contributed to some unfortunate accidents...

see above, and this is the first i have heard about under inflated tires as opposed to over inflated.



The Fed owns GM now. Guess who's driving this witch hunt?

so you beleive that this is a goverment run, or influenced campaign, against toyota?

and i brought up the ford/firestone issue as an example of the media doing the same to a US company as they are doing to Toyota, or vice versa depending on how you look at it.

bfng3569
09 Mar 10,, 21:22
Have you ever experienced this? Have you ever conducted tests and found conclusive evidences that Toyota is at fault? Have you even heard 2nd hand information that this has happened?

People died more likely due to bad drivers. You've seen them on the road. I see them every single day. But I have never seen a Toyota that can't stop on the road.

They couldn't find the problem. No one could.

I did. I asked my friend the same questions (he believed Firestone tires were at fault) I'm asking you now. I asked if he had ever seen an Explorer flip. I asked if he had ever witnessed Firestone tires explode. I asked if he even knew of someone who had this happen to them. He couldn't answer these questions but firmly believed Firestone was at fault.

Firestone tires did exactly what they were supposed to do. Those were grade C tires Ford used to cut down cost. Ford also lowered the recommended tire pressure to lower the center of mass on an unstable truck. Stupid American drivers handle a truck the same way they handle a sedan. All these factors contributed to some unfortunate accidents.

The Fed owns GM now. Guess who's driving this witch hunt?

who knows, maybe this will shed some light into what happened....


Feds to probe cause of runaway Prius in California

AP

EL CAJON, Calif. – A Toyota Prius that sped out of control on a California freeway was towed to a dealership Tuesday while federal and company inspectors converged on the car to determine whether a stuck gas pedal was to blame.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration sent two investigators to examine the car after Monday's incident, said Olivia Alair, a spokeswoman for the Department of Transportation, which oversees NHTSA. Toyota Motor Corp. spokesman Brian Lyons said the automaker is sending three of its own technicians to investigate.

James Sikes, 61, of Jacumba, told authorities that the accelerator malfunctioned Monday as he drove his Prius on Interstate 8 in San Diego County. The car reached 94 mph during the 20 minutes before a California Highway Patrol officer helped get the Prius driver to slow down and turn off the engine.

The CHP held the car overnight but it was towed to the dealership Tuesday, CHP Officer Brian Pennings said.

"There's no collision, so our investigation's done," Pennings said. "There's no crime. ... We're just glad it ended safely."

The incident comes while Toyota is fighting fears over the safety of its vehicles, which had been revered for their safety and reliability.

It was about 12 miles from where Sikes' Prius started speeding where a deadly crash last year sparked scrutiny into the Japanese company's vehicles.

CHP Officer Mark Saylor, his wife, her brother and the couple's daughter died after their Lexus' accelerator became trapped by a wrong-size floor mat on a freeway in La Mesa. The loaner car hit a sport utility vehicle and burst into flames.

Since then, Toyota has recalled some 8.5 million vehicles worldwide — more than 6 million in the United States — because of acceleration problems in multiple models and braking issues in the Prius. Regulators have linked 52 deaths to crashes allegedly caused by accelerator problems.

On Monday, Toyota assembled a group of experts at its North American headquarters in Torrance, Calif., to refute studies by an Illinois professor who revved Toyota engines simply by short-circuiting the wiring. Toyota's experts say the experiments were done under conditions that would never happen on the road.

The company has blamed the issue on mechanical problems and floor mats that can wedge the gas pedal.

"It wasn't the floor mat. The floor mat we have has hooks on it," Sikes' wife, Patty, said in a telephone interview Tuesday.

Patty Sikes said the family's 2008 Prius appeared to have an accelerator malfunction a few weeks ago but it was brief.

"It took off for a second, and then it just stopped. It was like a little hiccup or something," she said.

The family got a recall notice and took it to Toyota of El Cajon about two weeks ago but the dealership refused to examine the car, Patty Sikes said.

"They said it must be a mistake because we weren't on the (recall) list," she said.

The dealership declined to comment and referred requests for comment to Toyota's corporate representatives.

Toyota spokesman John Hanson confirmed that the 2008 Prius is part of Toyota's recall to address unintended acceleration due to floor mat entrapment. The recall, affecting 5.6 million vehicles, was first announced in October.

Hanson said a recall of this magnitude takes time, and Toyota first sends a preliminary notice to owners saying their vehicles are subject to a recall. A second notice comes later detailing how and where the vehicle can be fixed.

"I believe what could have happened is Mr. Sikes could have received his preliminary notification which says, 'Hello, your car is going to be recalled, and we will notify you when to bring it in.'"

At a news conference Monday, Sikes said he called 911 about 1:30 p.m. Monday after accelerating to pass another car on Interstate 8 near La Posta.

"I pushed the gas pedal to pass a car and it did something kind of funny. ... It jumped and it just stuck there," he said.

A patrol car pulled alongside the Prius and the officer told Sikes over a loudspeaker to push the brake pedal to the floor and apply the emergency brake.

The braking, coupled with a steep rise on the freeway, slowed the car to about 50 mph. Sikes then shut off the engine and the car coasted to a stop. CHP Officer Todd Neibert then moved his vehicle in front of the Prius to block it as a precaution.

Neibert is a 14-year veteran but he had no special training in halting runaway cars, Pennings said.

"Officers are trained to adapt and overcome. You can't train for every type of situation," he said. "Fortunately, the first thing he tried worked."


from that article:

On Monday, Toyota assembled a group of experts at its North American headquarters in Torrance, Calif., to refute studies by an Illinois professor who revved Toyota engines simply by short-circuiting the wiring. Toyota's experts say the experiments were done under conditions that would never happen on the road.

who would you belive?

gunnut
09 Mar 10,, 22:13
and you know the answer to that.

ZERO?



How many stories get printed without conclusive evidence?

So you admit this whole thing is cooked up by the media?



i havent followed enough of this to know since i dont know anyone that owns one, or own one myself.

Maybe you should do a better statistical analysis with a large data set.



have you done any studies to prove that it is bad drivers and not a fault with the car?

No, but the 3 car accidents I've been in were all caused by driver errors. One by yours truly and two by the other parties. None were caused by the cars.



so should the issue not get reported on? no investigation?

Sure there should be investigation. But let's not jump on Toyota so quickly. How does that old saying go? Innocent until proven guilty?



i have no idea, nor do i have any idea who was at fault. last i remember hearing, it was from the tired being over inflated.

the point being, i do certainly remember quite a bit of bad press for both, as much as toyota is getting now, i really couldnt say. but i dont hear any more about toyotas issues than i did about fireston/ford when that happend.

see above, and this is the first i have heard about under inflated tires as opposed to over inflated.


The tires were under inflated to bring the center of mass down. Under inflation will cause more stress on the sidewalls of the tires. Early Explorers didn't handle like cars but rather like trucks. The drivers, when experiencing an emergency maneuver, will often flip the car because they crank the steering wheel a bit too hard.



so you beleive that this is a goverment run, or influenced campaign, against toyota?

That's just the conspiracy theorist in me talking. ;)



and i brought up the ford/firestone issue as an example of the media doing the same to a US company as they are doing to Toyota, or vice versa depending on how you look at it.

And I have equally defended both (Firestone, not Ford). I detest how Ford blamed the tires for its own design shortcomings.

gunnut
09 Mar 10,, 22:23
who knows, maybe this will shed some light into what happened....

from that article:

On Monday, Toyota assembled a group of experts at its North American headquarters in Torrance, Calif., to refute studies by an Illinois professor who revved Toyota engines simply by short-circuiting the wiring. Toyota's experts say the experiments were done under conditions that would never happen on the road.

who would you belive?

I believe Toyota. I can short circuit the flight control of a 767 and cause it to crash too. Does that mean it happens in real world?

Here are 2 other things fishy about this incident.



James Sikes, 61, of Jacumba, told authorities that the accelerator malfunctioned Monday as he drove his Prius on Interstate 8 in San Diego County. The car reached 94 mph during the 20 minutes

Number 1, if the gas pedal is stuck, that means he couldn't slow down. If so, then how could he have sustained 94 mph on I8 in San Diego, during the middle of the day, just after lunch hour? I don't know about you but I have never seen a car with stuck gas pedal that can vary the speed according to traffic conditions.

Number 2, during these 20 minutes, was he not able to turn the engine off? I understand the Prius uses a push button to start. Logic dictates that the system should be able to shut off by holding the switch for 3 to 5 seconds. Besides, the brake itself is still a mechanical linkage. Stumping on the brake will at least slow the car down and possible stopping it.

Parihaka
09 Mar 10,, 23:12
Number 2, during these 20 minutes, was he not able to turn the engine off? I understand the Prius uses a push button to start. Logic dictates that the system should be able to shut off by holding the switch for 3 to 5 seconds. Besides, the brake itself is still a mechanical linkage. Stumping on the brake will at least slow the car down and possible stopping it.
All Toyota push button starting systems will indeed shut down the motor regardless of circumstances if the button is held down for 3 seconds.

bfng3569
10 Mar 10,, 02:10
ZERO?
So you admit this whole thing is cooked up by the media?.

i admit nothing.

i know you like your conspiracy theories and all, but lets not go to far out of context with things. unless you are implying that every story covered in the media is possibly 'cooked' up? until you can find souces that you personaly approve of to either confirm or deny that is?

all this started with the comment that the media and gov. is pouncing on toyota over this, with implications that they are being unfair or targeting them because they are a foreign co.

i disagree, i think if this was any other car company, the results (in the media) would be the same. and the ford/firestone comparison seemed a bit more relevant than Pinto's, dont ya think?

and dont you think they both got quite a bit of negative media coverage?



Maybe you should do a better statistical analysis with a large data set..

maybe you should switch to decaf??? i made a couple of comments based on some news coverage, and you ask me questions implying that i should be doing my own hads on research here? what gives?



No, but the 3 car accidents I've been in were all caused by driver errors. One by yours truly and two by the other parties. None were caused by the cars.

not sure the relevance other than to say your personal experince has been driver error.



Sure there should be investigation. But let's not jump on Toyota so quickly. How does that old saying go? Innocent until proven guilty?.

i just watched Absence of Malice the other day, again. (one of those movies i can watch over and over....).



The tires were under inflated to bring the center of mass down. Under inflation will cause more stress on the sidewalls of the tires. Early Explorers didn't handle like cars but rather like trucks. The drivers, when experiencing an emergency maneuver, will often flip the car because they crank the steering wheel a bit too hard..

Honeslty, i gotta ask where that came from? or where the finding came from? I worked for a few different companies way back when that do nothing but tires, and while both under and over inflated tires are bad to have, under inflated (at least enough to blow the tire out) should handle like youre driving on a wet sponge while drunk.

and when i go off roading, i take my 32 psi inflation down to about 15, and the handling characteristics on road getting to the trail... well, lets just say you cant miss it.



That's just the conspiracy theorist in me talking. ;)

And I have equally defended both (Firestone, not Ford). I detest how Ford blamed the tires for its own design shortcomings.

so before this gets more out of hand with whos done what tests and studies, my point, and question, is do you really think if they were linking Ford or GM to an issue like this, that it would be getting less media coverage?

i do not think Toyota is being targeting or found any more guilty than any one else would be in the same situation.

wether you agree with the media and the way they conduct themselves in general or not is a different thread, but to me, personally, i dont see them going out of there way over toyota

bfng3569
10 Mar 10,, 02:13
I believe Toyota. I can short circuit the flight control of a 767 and cause it to crash too. Does that mean it happens in real world?.

i dont really belive either.

and i have no idea the circumstance that were used to create the incident, but toyota admits its possible, but just that its not possible.



Here are 2 other things fishy about this incident.

Number 1, if the gas pedal is stuck, that means he couldn't slow down. If so, then how could he have sustained 94 mph on I8 in San Diego, during the middle of the day, just after lunch hour? I don't know about you but I have never seen a car with stuck gas pedal that can vary the speed according to traffic conditions.

Number 2, during these 20 minutes, was he not able to turn the engine off? I understand the Prius uses a push button to start. Logic dictates that the system should be able to shut off by holding the switch for 3 to 5 seconds. Besides, the brake itself is still a mechanical linkage. Stumping on the brake will at least slow the car down and possible stopping it.

i'd agree, i think its fishy.=

gunnut
10 Mar 10,, 05:07
Honeslty, i gotta ask where that came from? or where the finding came from? I worked for a few different companies way back when that do nothing but tires, and while both under and over inflated tires are bad to have, under inflated (at least enough to blow the tire out) should handle like youre driving on a wet sponge while drunk.

and when i go off roading, i take my 32 psi inflation down to about 15, and the handling characteristics on road getting to the trail... well, lets just say you cant miss it.

You under inflate tires for off road to enhance traction. It also generates extra pressure on the side walls, but the speed is low and the duration is shorter. We spend far more time on the road than off. Driving 20,000 miles on under inflated tires does far more damage than a few hours of off roading will do.

Bridgestone/Firestone Tire Recall (http://usgovinfo.about.com/blfirestone.htm)



Bridgestone/Firestone Announces Voluntary Recall of 3.85 million RADIAL ATX and RADIAL ATX II Tires, and 2.7 million Wilderness AT Tires
Company urges all drivers to maintain proper inflation in their tires.

WASHINGTON, DC, Aug. 9, 2000 -- Saying the safety of consumers is the company’s first concern, today Bridgestone/Firestone, Inc., announced a voluntary recall of all Firestone Radial ATX and Radial ATX II tires in size P235/75R15 produced in North America, including Mexico, and Wilderness AT tires in size P235/75R15 produced at the Decatur, Illinois plant. The recall includes original equipment and replacement tires of that size, regardless of the vehicle’s manufacturer. Vehicle owners will be notified of the recall by mail. Bridgestone/Firestone will replace all of these tires with brand new Wilderness AT or other Bridgestone/Firestone tires. If necessary, the company will obtain other sources of supply.

The recall was announced by Gary Crigger, Executive Vice President of Bridgestone/Firestone Inc., at a Washington, DC, news conference. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is currently conducting a preliminary evaluation of the tires in response to questions relating to failures of these tires. The company is not limiting the recall. There have been approximately 14.4 million of these tires produced. The company estimates that the number of tires still in use and involved in the recall is 6.5 million, which includes 3.8 million Radial ATX and ATX II tires and 2.7 million Wilderness AT tires.

"At Bridgestone/Firestone, nothing is more important to us than the safety of our customers," said Crigger. "We felt we must take this extraordinary step as a precaution to ensure consumer safety and consumer confidence in our brands. So, no matter how old the tires, no matter how many miles they have on them, we will replace them with new tires."

Crigger said, "Throughout this process, we have been working very closely with Ford Motor Company and NHTSA to determine the cause of the accidents involving vehicles with these tires. While we have not determined what, if any, problem there may be with these tires, our review of the data suggests three things."

Although noting that accidents involving these tires are rare in comparison to the millions of tires produced, he said that the data shows:

1.The number of reported incidents with the P235/75R15 Radial ATX and ATX II is higher than with other sizes in this line;
2.The Decatur, Illinois plant is over-represented in the accident claims and reports compared with other plants;
3.The majority of the incidents are in the southern-most states of Arizona, California, Florida and Texas, which suggests there may be a direct correlation between heat and tire performance.
"In addition," Crigger said, "the abundance of concern surrounding these tires clearly indicates the need for this action."

The company also urged all consumers to take additional steps to increase the lifespan and safety of their tires, by maintaining proper inflation.

"When under inflated, all radial tires generate excessive heat," Crigger said. "Driving on tires in this condition can lead to tread separation. Maintaining the proper inflation level will enhance the performance and lifespan of these tires."

For the owners of the P235/75R15 size tires in the ATX, ATX II produced in North America, including Mexico, and Wilderness AT tires produced at the Decatur, Illinois plant:

•Customers who have a recalled tire will receive a letter from the company notifying them of the recall and the steps they need to take. Customers who need assistance should call the toll-free customer service number at 1-800-465-1904 or click here to find the location of the nearest Firestone Authorized Service Center.
•Those who have a recalled tire should call their nearest local Firestone retailer to set up an appointment for an exchange. Because the preponderance of incidents is in the four southern states and given the limited supply of replacement tires at this time, the company will be undertaking a three phase recall starting in Arizona, California, Florida and Texas. The second phase for the recall will be implemented in Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, Nevada, Oklahoma and Tennessee. The final phase will include the remainder of the states.
•Keep non-Ford vehicles with Wilderness AT tires at the pressure recommended by the vehicle manufacturer.
•All vehicle owners using Wilderness tires should keep their tires inflated at the pressure recommended by the vehicle manufacturer. For owners of Ford Explorers or Mercury Mountaineers, with P235/75R15 ATX and Wilderness AT tires on their vehicles, Ford recommends these tires be maintained at a minimum of 26 psi. at the request of Firestone, Ford has evaluated the performance of these tires at 30 psi and has determined that the vehicles maintain good performance characteristics at this higher pressure. Ford recommends a tire pressure range of 26-30 psi. Firestone recommends a tire pressure of 30 psi.
Consistent with the company’s long-standing policy of commitment to customer satisfaction and service, all Wilderness tire owners were urged to contact their nearest company-owned service center for a free inspection.

"We will inspect each customer’s tires for damage or excessive wear, while checking to make sure the tires are inflated to the level specified by the vehicle's manufacturer," said Crigger.

Crigger reiterated that these steps were being taken to protect consumer safety and satisfaction. "We extend our condolences to families that have lost loved ones in accidents. We also apologize to our customers for the inconvenience this recall causes and we ask for their patience," he said.

Nashville, Tennessee based Bridgestone/Firestone, Inc., is the largest subsidiary of Bridgestone Corporation of Japan, the world’s largest tire and rubber manufacturer. Bridgestone/Firestone, Inc. develops, manufactures and markets Bridgestone, Firestone, Dayton and private brand tires. The company also produces Firestone air springs, roofing materials, synthetic rubber and industrial fibers and textiles.


Ford, for some odd reason, recommended owners to under inflate tires, against Firestone's specification.

bfng3569
10 Mar 10,, 19:22
You under inflate tires for off road to enhance traction. It also generates extra pressure on the side walls, but the speed is low and the duration is shorter. We spend far more time on the road than off. Driving 20,000 miles on under inflated tires does far more damage than a few hours of off roading will do.

Bridgestone/Firestone Tire Recall (http://usgovinfo.about.com/blfirestone.htm)



Ford, for some odd reason, recommended owners to under inflate tires, against Firestone's specification.

oh i know the difference in the few miles on road to get to the trail, but my point being that with the tire under inflated that much, it was just impossible to not notice it.

so i was just wondering what the circumstances were for the ford/firestone as to how under inflated they were. and from the article, it doesnt sound like it was enough to really notice at all. its the frist i have read that one.

as far as the damage goes, cant tell you how many arguements, and almost a couple of fists fghts, when someone came in with a flat or a slow leak that should have been an easy fix, then you ask them how far they drove on it, and they say just a mile or two, and in the end, you tell them they need a new tire.

when you break the tire down, and theres about two pounds of black powder in there, from the rim riding on the sidewall or the inside of the sidewall almost folding in on itself.

try telling someone who knows everything about anything that they ruined there own tire that way.....

ShawnG
10 Mar 10,, 20:23
I'll stick with my Infiniti G37, but I knew I should have bought the M!