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  • Recent arrests in Turkey

    Turkey has always had a pro-secular military that has overthrown 4 civilian governments in the past. Now there is a pro-Islamic party for the government for the first time. In the last few days there have been arrests of some upper level officers in the so called Sledgehammer Plot. The claims presented have seemed to get more fanciful regarding the arrests of military officers over the last year. Even journalists, academics and civil society leaders have been detained for criticizing the Justice and Development Party.

    Question is does this seem to be a form of a preemptive coup against the military and critics by the pro-Islamic Party to consolidate power into their hands and forever neuter the military? Should the pro-secular military take action against this apparent move and overthrow the pro-Islamic government before it is too late?

  • #2
    I wouldn’t deny that Erdogan’s government is using this against certain military leaders but this doesn’t mean that the Ergenekon cases are all doctored. A “Deep State” exists in present day Turkey and it is a continuation from the Ottoman Empire, not much is changed. The Ultra-Nationalist might be seen as secular but they are far from any democratic values as outside people have come to perceive. The involvement of these Ergenekons, gray wolfs, fascism runs in every fiber of Turkish society and Erdogan could not pull this off without support from within the ranks of the military, of course in my opinion.

    It seems to me Kemalism and Islamism are merging while putting down oppositions from both sides, with a new outlook which has nothing to do with EU, pro USA, or pro Israeli stand.....in fact the opposite.
    Turkey sees itself as a new superpower and wants to remove itself from what she perceives as a waist of its time and resources with the West. In fact the latest lines from Turks is fck the EU and we can become stronger and expand without NATO.
    Wolf Hunter

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    • #3
      Ararat your logic seems a bit confused to me.

      Had the fascism and support for gray-wolves been so high in turkish society why MHP (their political party) never won the elections?

      If the support for fascism was so strong in the military why Turkey was never ruled by a military junta since WW2 despite 2 coups?

      Kemalism simply cannot merge with Islamism since they are nearly opposite ideals.

      And while I agree that support for EU has dropped in Turkey, the reasons of it are various and not all of them are domestic. On the other hand Turkey continues to be a an important and responsible NATO member as she did for 60 years.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by TTL View Post
        Ararat your logic seems a bit confused to me.

        Had the fascism and support for gray-wolves been so high in turkish society why MHP (their political party) never won the elections?

        If the support for fascism was so strong in the military why Turkey was never ruled by a military junta since WW2 despite 2 coups?

        Kemalism simply cannot merge with Islamism since they are nearly opposite ideals.

        And while I agree that support for EU has dropped in Turkey, the reasons of it are various and not all of them are domestic. On the other hand Turkey continues to be a an important and responsible NATO member as she did for 60 years.
        I be the first one to admit that when it comes to Turkish politics I don’t know jack. I am just going with what I have heard from other ultra-nationalist Turks. I do not speak Turkish and apparently we can’t trust any news media from Turkey since according to Turks they do not represent us (Kemalist), and those organizations that report the “truth” and are pro military are printed in Turkish.

        The only question I am making is that how could Erdogan pull this off, ….I mean even the police officers were in one point in Turkish military and it won’t be hard to assume where their allegiance lies. I also don’t think Kemalists are against Islam, they see themselves as the guarantors of Turkish secularity. Also the Islamist are also very much nationalistic Turks aren’t they?

        You never know what Turks will do, but I must admit..........Erdogan is a good politician for Turkey, and he stated himself that Deep State has existed since the Ottomans and it must be controlled or if possible, eliminated.

        I don't think he means the military but certain factions.
        Wolf Hunter

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        • #5
          I also don't know much about Turkish politics. Military coups are bad in this day and age.

          But the duo of Abdullah Gul and Erdogan.... hmmm... I dont feel too comfortable with their open espousal of Islamic "values".

          Mustafa Kemal Pasha must have had some reason to fashion Turkey in the manner that he did...

          I would choose Mustafa Kemal over Erdogan any day.
          Totalitarianism-Feudalism in new garbs

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Ararat View Post
            I wouldn’t deny that Erdogan’s government is using this against certain military leaders but this doesn’t mean that the Ergenekon cases are all doctored. A “Deep State” exists in present day Turkey and it is a continuation from the Ottoman Empire, not much is changed. The Ultra-Nationalist might be seen as secular but they are far from any democratic values as outside people have come to perceive. The involvement of these Ergenekons, gray wolfs, fascism runs in every fiber of Turkish society and Erdogan could not pull this off without support from within the ranks of the military, of course in my opinion.

            It seems to me Kemalism and Islamism are merging while putting down oppositions from both sides, with a new outlook which has nothing to do with EU, pro USA, or pro Israeli stand.....in fact the opposite.
            Turkey sees itself as a new superpower and wants to remove itself from what she perceives as a waist of its time and resources with the West. In fact the latest lines from Turks is fck the EU and we can become stronger and expand without NATO.
            will you stop attacking us?!

            I be the first one to admit that when it comes to Turkish politics I don’t know jack. I am just going with what I have heard from other ultra-nationalist Turks. I do not speak Turkish and apparently we can’t trust any news media from Turkey since according to Turks they do not represent us (Kemalist), and those organizations that report the “truth” and are pro military are printed in Turkish.

            The only question I am making is that how could Erdogan pull this off, ….I mean even the police officers were in one point in Turkish military and it won’t be hard to assume where their allegiance lies. I also don’t think Kemalists are against Islam, they see themselves as the guarantors of Turkish secularity. Also the Islamist are also very much nationalistic Turks aren’t they?

            You never know what Turks will do, but I must admit..........Erdogan is a good politician for Turkey, and he stated himself that Deep State has existed since the Ottomans and it must be controlled or if possible, eliminated.

            I don't think he means the military but certain factions.

            is "having an idea without any knowledge" a new trend around here?

            Erdogan is NOT a good politician for Turkey nor he is democrat.

            he is a known friend of Taliban (i already posted pictures about it) and he is supported by USA just before Turkish Elections

            Yes, Turkey must NOT enter the EU (because EU has not that ability), because EU means a huge double standards and we have almost nothing to gain with it except governmental/administrational issues.

            infact we are already f.ked because of its customs union we apply although we are not EU member (as far as i know Greece do not apply it but they are member),

            but this does not means to be isolated nor be alienated from West but the truth is Turks dont have any confidence in NATO either althoug we spread blood side by side.

            the struggle between followers of Mustafa Kemal(seculars) & so-called Islamics (Erdogan) started just after coup of 1980. it was Kenan Evren, the ex-general, head of he coup of 1980 who re-opened the Imam-Hatip schools(source of todays Erdogan and his followers)

            nowadays it seems that they are in co-operation with Kurdish-facists and some other external so-called "democratic" organisations.

            Erdogan, step by step changes Turkey in to a police state, he applies censorship, and every other fear factors.

            last days he told this incredible phrase

            "media bosses are responsible of what their writers/journalists write because they pay them and they are the ones who must control them"

            this is their "democratic" way...


            Turkey must live in peace in all manners (he acts like bully but he is a sheep when bulliness necessary)

            Turkey must be independent in all manners (after Erdogan, banking system owned by foreigners by %70!!!)

            and if Turkey can use its own sources these are not dreams at all.
            Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by HillTribe View Post
              I also don't know much about Turkish politics. Military coups are bad in this day and age.

              But the duo of Abdullah Gul and Erdogan.... hmmm... I dont feel too comfortable with their open espousal of Islamic "values".

              Mustafa Kemal Pasha must have had some reason to fashion Turkey in the manner that he did...

              I would choose Mustafa Kemal over Erdogan any day.
              they created a new "Jewo-Islamic" way. this is what we call them.

              we are Muslim and supporters of secularism

              and

              yes Mustafa Kemal Ataturk is our beloved leader and we are his followers.
              Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

              Comment


              • #8
                You tell me to stop attacking (which I didn’t, I stated the truth that you don’t want people to know in regards to “Turkish Skull”......you know what I mean) but then you right away turn around and make an insult with your second sentence.

                Erdogan might not be a good politician according to some hard core Kemalists but he is very popular in Turkey, just look at the polls. And if USA is supporting him over the Kemalist military then they must think as I do which is an Islamic Turkish government is lesser of the two evil, sort of speak.

                BTW, wasn’t the Ergenekons who provided 6000 weapons to PKK out of 24000 headed for Talibani back in the 90s? Also wasn’t it a high ranking Turkish General accompanied with a PKK leader in the back seat involved in a car crash in Turkey? I am sure you will deny it and claim that the sources are all misinformation like your other countrymen.


                Originally posted by Big K View Post
                they created a new "Jewo-Islamic" way. this is what we call them.

                we are Muslim and supporters of secularism

                and

                yes Mustafa Kemal Ataturk is our beloved leader and we are his followers.
                Care to elaborate on this one? Did you see that poster hanging off of two large crains? That is some Jewo-Islamic way Big K :)



                http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.p...ter-2010-02-22
                Wolf Hunter

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ararat View Post
                  You tell me to stop attacking (which I didn’t, I stated the truth that you don’t want people to know in regards to “Turkish Skull”......you know what I mean) but then you right away turn around and make an insult with your second sentence.
                  no i dont know what you mean by Turkish Skull???

                  theres no such truth and no you attacked and you are still making demagogy

                  Originally posted by Ararat View Post
                  Erdogan might not be a good politician according to some hard core Kemalists but he is very popular in Turkey, just look at the polls. And if USA is supporting him over the Kemalist military then they must think as I do which is an Islamic Turkish government is lesser of the two evil, sort of speak.
                  hard core Kemalists?? Mustafa Kemal's way is the only way for the fully independent Turkey.

                  he is popular because he is a very good demagog, populist and a very good strategist, he is using current affairs very effectively for his interests.

                  USA supported him because they can not afford an independent Turkey, anybody can afford such thing.

                  and Erdogan handed over all the economic power in Turkey to foreigners.

                  and for "lesser evil" by choosing the other "evil"....you all are like child on this issue and absolutely no idea what are you dealing with.

                  Originally posted by Ararat View Post
                  BTW, wasn’t the Ergenekons who provided 6000 weapons to PKK out of 24000 headed for Talibani back in the 90s? Also wasn’t it a high ranking Turkish General accompanied with a PKK leader in the back seat involved in a car crash in Turkey? I am sure you will deny it and claim that the sources are all misinformation like your other countrymen.
                  by saying this you showed your true face.

                  first of all Ergenekon case is not over yet so anyone can say or deny anything about it but arrests for this case are highly political this is a known fact around here.

                  listen Erdogan is eliminating ALL the opposition in Turkey systematically, you & anyone can not see it.

                  secondly pkk is highly supported sometimes by Armenia, Greece, Iran, Southern Cyprus and etc...

                  rumors about the support of the deep state in Turkey also existing and sounds very possible in terms of drugs&arms business.

                  if i understood the right "car crash" you mention you may be misinformed about the involved people. i dont remember any generals.

                  there was a mafia leader and some police officers involved in if my memory serves me well.

                  Originally posted by Ararat View Post
                  Care to elaborate on this one? Did you see that poster hanging off of two large crains? That is some Jewo-Islamic way Big K :)
                  once again you have absolutely no idea what i meant with "Jewo-Islamic" and you are childishly attacking.

                  this poster is nothing compared some AKP people even called Erdogan "the prophet Erdogan"!!!!

                  some of them are deeper fanatics than talibunnies

                  by "Jewo-Islamic" i meant that they are using Islam to create a business focused Islamic community.

                  no offense to Jews at all but we all know their aptitude about business&money issues.

                  they are using Islam, they corrupt state biddings, they use only their people, they change laws to create benefits and tey are making it hardcore.....etc etc etc

                  see? you should think before attacking blindly

                  Ararat, your hate makes you blind, your statements like "like your other countrymen, like all Turks etc" shows it.

                  i suggest to re-think about it,

                  some 50 000+ illegal Armenian workers in Turkeys are not sharing your hate i think nor my fellow Armenian-Turkish friends too
                  Last edited by Big K; 13 Mar 10,, 13:13.
                  Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Big K,what's the Army's stance on these developments?What's the general population's stance towards the Army?What's the stance of Erdogan's supporters on the same issue?
                    Those who know don't speak
                    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Big K View Post
                      secondly pkk is highly supported sometimes by Armenia, Greece, Iran, Southern Cyprus and etc...
                      Big K, you know I respect you, but how can you say that Cyprus supports pkk? I, for once, do not remember not one thing about a connection between Cyprus and pkk. We have absolutely no reason to support them. We have problems with your country, that's for sure, but we do not undermine you in such a way.

                      After all, what pkk wants is an indipendant Kurdistan. Do you really believe that a country that has so much to lose from separatism would support such an organisation, especially a country so small as Cyprus where nothing stays hidden and everything is plain under the sun?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                        Big K,what's the Army's stance on these developments?What's the general population's stance towards the Army?What's the stance of Erdogan's supporters on the same issue?
                        the TAF is still most credible institution by far in the country,

                        the parliament is the least one.

                        you cant imagine how corrupted they are (akp).

                        last day i just witnessed once again but i cant tell the name and which state institution was the exemple i mention.

                        one big exemple; if they cancel the "immunity of parliamenter" the 70%+ of Turkish parliament wouyld be in jail according Turkish laws...
                        Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Rastagir View Post
                          Big K, you know I respect you, but how can you say that Cyprus supports pkk? I, for once, do not remember not one thing about a connection between Cyprus and pkk. We have absolutely no reason to support them. We have problems with your country, that's for sure, but we do not undermine you in such a way.

                          After all, what pkk wants is an indipendant Kurdistan. Do you really believe that a country that has so much to lose from separatism would support such an organisation, especially a country so small as Cyprus where nothing stays hidden and everything is plain under the sun?
                          my dear friend,

                          abdullah ocalan, when he captured, he was having 2 Southern Cyprus passports for the names "Aristos Aristidou, Lazaros Mavros".

                          maybe State dont support them but surely pkk finds a good place there.

                          no offense to you nor your nation at all, these are state affairs and foreign policies.
                          Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Rastagir,

                            why dont you check this adress : Lefkosa Orpfeas street no:16

                            and check the flags my friend
                            Attached Files
                            Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Big K View Post
                              the TAF is still most credible institution by far in the country,
                              the parliament is the least one.
                              you cant imagine how corrupted they are (akp).
                              last day i just witnessed once again but i cant tell the name and which state institution was the exemple i mention.
                              one big exemple; if they cancel the "immunity of parliamenter" the 70%+ of Turkish parliament wouyld be in jail according Turkish laws...
                              Mate,remember,we were neighbours for 500 years.We share the same ways.Actually you learned us the meaning of baksheesh..You and me eat the same chorba,buddy.Same support for the military,same scoundrels in the rest.Same immunity btw.
                              Those who know don't speak
                              He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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