Removal of unfired 16" rounds.

[shadow01]

I have a question,(probably a dumb one), when a 16" projectile is rammed into the breach if it is not fired how do they remove it.

From what I have been told when ramming the projectile home it contacts the rifling in the barrel.

Also, are the blue practice projectiles smaller to allow for easier removal?

[Dreadnought]

Only one way(there are other altenatives) to remove the shell once it has engaged the rifling, It should be fired even if it means using a reduced service charge to do this. The copper bands (rotating bands) on the bottom of the shell are what engages the rifling in the barrel. There is are few choices of how to remove it from the barrel properly. IMO, it would be foolish to attempt pulling the shell out using the chain rammer chain in reverse as it could damage it, meaning hours of repair work and thats only if they have the materials to repair it. Next would be the problem of "if" you did get it out, now its on the spanning tray after depressing the gun to 5 degrees, and will have to go back down the hoist . The hoists are not meant to do this (they are reversible though in case of a damaged piece of hoist equipment) they were designed for the 2,700 AP round's weight and chances are there is another projectile already in the hoist unless at practice. It would become very manpower intensive and damage to the hoist or loading mechanism can easily occur with any accident. IMO, first choice and more then likely final by the Gun Captain and Turret Officer is to fire it with a reduced charge after gaining approval of all circumstances in the turret and particular gun and warning the other ships around them.

*Also if this situation were to happen, now you have approximately 660lbs gunpowder to deal with (many safetey precautions) and more in the powder elevators. An accident waiting to happen, safer to just fire the shell with reduced service charge. But in this case all powder elevators loaded and reversed. Nothing happens until all of the powder is back in the mag, behind flame tight scuttles (Safety first). Then proceed with removal of projectile if it cannot be fired.

*This is why you have Petty Officers stationed throughout, this way the left hand always knows what the right hand is doing at all times in the turret, shell decks, powder mags etc. Many watchful and experienced eyes upon whats going on.

*For removing the drill projectiles from the 16" guns you have a special assembly built just for doing that. First it requires you to protect the mushroom head of the breech (a woven rope cusion) or the dummy powder charges do well,the breech is closed then a rope, clamp and pulley assembly are afixed at the muzzle end of the rifle and connected to a backing out rammer that is dropped onto the practice rounds nose (inert no fuse) after the gun has been elevated. It is dropped onto the projectile and raised with the rope and pulleys until the drill round is dislodged resting on the dummy powder bags or cusion where it contacts the mushroom head. If not then it could bend the breech stem that is part of the mushroom head. From there gun is depressed to 5 degrees, breech cycled and back into the spanning tray, Raised vertical, Then it can go down the hoist in reverse at practice since they weigh alot less then the AP rounds the hoists were designed for.

*If this seems like a blur, my apologies but there is much left out safety precaution wise concering the powder if in fact a round was lodged in the barrel. I didnt want to bore you with minor details.

Hope this helps answer your question.

[shadow01]

I was thinking along the same lines.

I did nor realize how much work it was to remove a practice round.

Thanks again!

[RustyBattleship]

On the 5"/38 guns, at the "Cease fire" order they are then to ordered to "Clear all tubes"

To do this, the full sevice propellant cannister is withdrawn from the breech and a shorter cannister (called the "Clearing Charge) is used to push the projectile away from the ship and drop into the sea.

On the 16"/50 guns, If there was firing before hand the crew has to wait up to 20 minutes in case there were any embers in the chamber from previous firing that would burn through the powder bags.

Then the unburnt or undamaged powder bags are gently removed and put back into the powder hoist for strike down in the magazines. Bags that show charing or burning are passed out of the turret and thrown over the side.

BLPs (Blind Loaded Plugs aka "Dummy rounds) can (and have been) safely backed out by the ramming technique.

Projectiles that have nose fuses and explosive filler are not "rammed" back out however. The sensitivity of both nose and base fuses might "recognize" the ramming as the inertia required upon firing that will then arm the fuse.

Therefore, on most (if not all) explosive 16-inch shells have 4 holes drilled in the base bottom. Two of them are 3/4" diameter, drilled only about an inch into the base and threaded for attachment of bolts to remove the shell if the crew has not (or can't find) the actual lifting lugs.

That's what the other two holes are for and drilled with a Woodrow Cutter so special lugs can merely be twisted in and have the strength to lift (if necessary) the entire round.

[Dreadnought]

"That's what the other two holes are for and drilled with a Woodrow Cutter so special lugs can merely be twisted in and have the strength to lift (if necessary) the entire round."

*As Rusty has mentioned the woodruff key lugs that can be used to remove the shell if lodged in the barrel and I mentioned the other way of doing it for drill projectiles so I figured I would show the difference between how these lugs were used in two different era's of US Battleship. Basically, the old and the new. For comparrison I will use USS Texas (New York class BB) and USS New Jersey (Iowa class BB)

*First the old way. USS Texas 14" shell woodruff key lugs. Note the shells were struck below upsidedown and stored upsidedown in racks using these lugs to move them.

[Dreadnought]

Now the new way,aboard the Iowas (USS New Jersey in this case) the lugs are no longer used for the purpose of striking 16" shells below to the shell decks on the Iowas. Instead, a new age apparatus is utilized to strike them below right side up. They are also stored right side up on the shell decks and lashed to the bulkheads, the old and the new.;)

[blidgepump]

Great Pictures

The photos certainly help illustrate the handling of larger shells.

Question: Is a 5-inch shell ( U.S. Navy) the largest a man can handle with out the aid of machine?

[Dreadnought]

For the 5" guns (even modern guns aboard the DD's etc) they weigh about 55lbs, and even kown they are auto loading they still require loading in the "hoist" or autoloader so in other words man/woman power in this day and age.The heavy cruisers such as the Des Moines class were also auto loaded 8" guns but still required manpower (since woman power wasnt available yet then to load them:))) . They disappeared into museums (Salem) and scrap (Des Moines and Newport News). As far as bigger shells the military fires (Marines and the Army) if they do at all it would be best left to the Gunny (Gun Grape) or S-2 to provide those details if they do. The USN these days dont fire anything larger then 5" projectiles. Although the rail gun could possibly change this in time to come but doubtfull with the accuracy and velocity they will perform at with the 5" shells. Literally, a high powered deer/sniper rifle from an incredible range with outstanding velocity and penetrating capability.

[USSWisconsin]

How big can a shell be for manhandling on a ship?

The photos certainly help illustrate the handling of larger shells.

Question: Is a 5-inch shell ( U.S. Navy) the largest a man can handle with out the aid of machine?

This question was explored in some detail by the British in WWII, they had many different medium guns, and the fixed ammunition for the 4.5"/45 guns weighed about 75# while the separate loading ammunition projectiles for the 5.25"/50 weighed 80#. Both of these types proved difficult to handle on the moving platforms typical of a ship at sea -manuvering in action - and consequently had lower rates of fire than their smaller competitors. The ~50# type ammunition proved most successful - in the USN 5"/38 and the separate loading 4.5"/45 British guns - allowing rates of fire nearly twice that of the larger types - thus putting more weight of fire in the air.

So my take on the answer to the question is yes - ~5" guns are the largest DP naval guns that can be loaded manually and still maintain high rates of fire. While modern systems have allowed somewhat larger projectiles and fixed ammunition, there is still a limit to manually handling ammuntion on a moving ship and the fact that most of the large modern naval guns are around 5" seems to indicate that this still is the case (US 5", UK 4.5", and Russian 130mm).

[Dreadnought]

A USN auto loading 5" mount at practice. You cannot see the auto loader below decks but you can see how the semi affixed casings are ejected above the barrel itself. This is not the updated version of the 5" gun.
*Notice how fast the air purge occurs after every shot clearing the bore for the following shot.

YouTube - 21 Consecutive 5 inch Deck Gun Shots from US NAVY DESTROYER

The future rail gun tests.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OqlT...eature=related

[ArtyEngineer]

Here is how we sometimes have to do it on 155mm systems

Here is a vid I tooklast summer in Ft Hood.



Round got rammed and then we were put in Checkfire as a damn LT got lost, thought he heard impacts and got on the net screaming "Checkfire". Well we were in a 'Warmtube status" which means you have to shoot the round within 5 mins of chambering or you have to extract it. This being a brand new tube manual extraction proved impossible. So EOD came, filled teh tube with water, dropped in a small block of C4 and blew the round out teh back :)

Regards

Arty

[sappersgt]

So EOD came, filled the tube with water, dropped in a small block of C4 and blew the round out the back :)

Nice.

[RustyBattleship]

Round got rammed and then we were put in Checkfire as a damn LT got lost, thought he heard impacts and got on the net screaming "Checkfire". Well we were in a 'Warmtube status" which means you have to shoot the round within 5 mins of chambering or you have to extract it. This being a brand new tube manual extraction proved impossible. So EOD came, filled teh tube with water, dropped in a small block of C4 and blew the round out teh back :)

Regards

Arty

Hydro pressure works very well as water is incompressible and covers the entire surface (the C-4 was NOT on the nose of the round). That's the way the ends of the SEALAB habitat were made (out of 1" thick HY-100 steel).

Also an easy way for reloaders to remove Berdan primers. Fill the case with water, put in a flat-ended stick and hit it with a hammer. Best to do it outside and water the garden at the same time.

[ArtyEngineer]

(the C-4 was NOT on the nose of the round).

Yeah, that would NOT be a good idea lol. It would indeed extract teh round, however you just wouldnt have much of the howitzer left after. It was suspended at the mid point of the tube. After extraction we did a Borescope inspection and were back shooting in no time at all. Never heard what happend to the LT that got lost and caused the situation in the first place. Suspect his body is buried somehwhere in the backwoods of Ft Hood. The Regimantal CO was very unhappy.

Regards

Arty