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troung
21 Apr 05,, 01:31
It's now down to the Rafale and F-15T. Already the Su-35, MiG-29M, F-18E/F, and JAS-39 have been kicked out as well. All this to replace the A-4SU Skyhawk...

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=8213772

LONDON, April 18 (Reuters) - Singapore has dropped the Eurofighter (BA.L: Quote, Profile, Research) (EAD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) combat jet from consideration as it prepares to announce the winner of a $1 billion order, an industry source told Reuters on Monday.
The source said only the Rafale jet from France's Dassault (AVMD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) and the F-15 from Boeing Co. (BA.N: Quote, Profile, Research) remain in contention.

Officials from all three manufacturers declined to comment.

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Another replay of Korea?

Singapore like Korea has mostly American equipment and an all American fighter line up (F-16C/D, F-5S/T) and American E-2Cs.

Dima
21 Apr 05,, 02:09
it's all about the Rafale

jgetti
21 Apr 05,, 14:38
it's all about the Rafale

We'll see.

Dima
22 Apr 05,, 03:32
lol, don't mean to diss the F-15T, i just like the Rafale for its looks, lol, and it also has some impressive capabilities

Bill
22 Apr 05,, 19:10
Betcha a dollar the F-15 wins...

Dima
23 Apr 05,, 07:17
yea, i hope the Rafale wins, it hasn't got any major deals at all so far, and it's sucha nice aircraft, but the F-15T will probably win, Singapore's closer to America than France anyways

jgetti
25 Apr 05,, 21:36
yea, i hope the Rafale wins, it hasn't got any major deals at all so far, and it's sucha nice aircraft, but the F-15T will probably win, Singapore's closer to America than France anyways

Couldn't have anything to do with the fact that it just might be the better aircraft,,,

ajaybhutani
26 Apr 05,, 01:05
Couldn't have anything to do with the fact that it just might be the better aircraft,,,
i think surely the plane matter but the diplomacy too comes into play. About Singapore i dont have much knowledge about its relations with Europe and US. So really cant say how it will effect but there surely will be a lot of diplomacy before the contract is signed. If the order is looked individualy the fighter capabilities and price become the main points but if there are some other stuff involved /attached by one side even the inferior stuff might get thru.

sniperdude411
26 Apr 05,, 02:29
Rafale is by far my favorite plane. The design is so cool... I used to build model aircraft, but it was a bit expensive after my A-10 model; that thing was AWESOME, but annoying; I had to out the gauss cannon together, and I had to glue individual rounds on the belt,paint them, etc. And I didn't get to see any of that!

troung
26 Apr 05,, 02:53
"yea, i hope the Rafale wins, it hasn't got any major deals at all so far, and it's sucha nice aircraft, but the F-15T will probably win, Singapore's closer to America than France anyways"

Singapore's A-4SUs are based in France...

But after replacing the A-4SUs they will still have F-16C/Ds and F-5S/Ts in service. They need a deep strike plane to replace the A-4SU. The F-5S/T is to be replaced by the F-35 JSF.

hmmmm.....

Dima
26 Apr 05,, 03:23
Couldn't have anything to do with the fact that it just might be the better aircraft,,,

but i didn't say that it was a better aircraft, i just said that "it's all about the Rafale"

personal favourite

but their relations with America are nonetheless better than those with France? is that not true?

jgetti
26 Apr 05,, 14:19
but i didn't say that it was a better aircraft, i just said that "it's all about the Rafale"

personal favourite

but their relations with America are nonetheless better than those with France? is that not true?


It may be true,, I don't really know how their relations with France are. However, Singapore is closely watched during such competitions as the rest of the world benchmarks them for their military contract bidding. They are extremely thorough in their selection process, consider all elements, and generally stick strictly to the outlined requirements.

sniperdude411
26 Apr 05,, 21:57
Good for them; they learn well from the US.
When politics are involved, I'm sure this will get ugly.

Unipidity
27 Apr 05,, 06:21
I heard somewhere that the F-15K + parts + support were going at $100m apiece. This sounds pricey to me. Anyone got verification, or Rafale comparison figs?

-{SpoonmaN}-
27 Apr 05,, 09:13
Yeah the Rafale is probably the better aircraft, but Singapore would always pick the US-friendly option. If only Australia didn't do the same cause the JSF is starting to look like it may end up being an F-111 style nightmare.

-{SpoonmaN}-
27 Apr 05,, 09:16
And I read the Rafale has $50m unit cost. With parts and training etc. it'd probably work out to be more or less the same as the F-15K given how insanely expensive military hardware has become.

jgetti
27 Apr 05,, 15:00
Yeah the Rafale is probably the better aircraft, but Singapore would always pick the US-friendly option. If only Australia didn't do the same cause the JSF is starting to look like it may end up being an F-111 style nightmare.


The Aussies should have picked the F-15 for that too. JSF doesn't have the capabilities they are looking for to replace the F-111,, i.e. a long range strike aircraft. The F-15E was designed to provide a replacement for the F-111 long strike capability,, something JSF AND Rafale do not have. Furthermore,, the F-15 airframe is matured and as so does not require much engineering support, and does not contribute to a significant fraction of the overall aircraft cost. Not true of the Rafale as it is a new airframe which is still undergoing operational development and is still contributing to the overall cost of the aircraft significantly.

What I'm getting at is that when you purchase an F-15,, you're primarily paying for all the systems included, not the airframe. So though you may pay $70 mil a copy, 70% of that cost is the avionics, radar, targeting systems, propusion, defensive electronic systems, etc. With the Rafale, you may only be paying $50 a copy, but a much larger percentage of the overall bill is the airframe, leaving a smaller percentage of a smaller bill to pay for all the goodies the airframe is stuffed with.

The F-15 is also a stable aircraft, yet it remains highly maneuverable. This is attributed to several things, not least of which is the high thrust to weight ratio and very low wing loading. Also, the general aerodynamic layout of the aircraft allows it to achieve high performance levels. Have you ever notice how similar the sillouette of an F/A-22 resembles an F-15?

The Rafale is an unstable strictly fly-by-wire aircraft and this is done to achieve a higher level of maneuverability. The benefit the F-15 has is that it is still highly maneuverable, but due to being a stable design, it can still retain a mechanical flight control system to complement the digital fly-by-wire system significantly increasing survivability. What this means is that the electronics on the aircraft could COMPLETELY shut down and the pilot would still be able to fly the aircraft with a high level of control.

The F-15 can fly a longer distance with a larger payload than the Rafale, fight it's way into hostile territory, deliver it's ordinance, and fight it's way back home.

The Rafale is an excellent aircraft,, but when looking for long strike capability I'd put my money on the F-15T, literally.

Dima
28 Apr 05,, 02:56
I heard somewhere that the F-15K + parts + support were going at $100m apiece. This sounds pricey to me. Anyone got verification, or Rafale comparison figs?


yea, actually, it is $100 million a piece

http://www.deagel.com/pandora/?p=pm00074006

"And I read the Rafale has $50m unit cost. With parts and training etc. it'd probably work out to be more or less the same as the F-15K given how insanely expensive military hardware has become."

well, actually, it's closer to $55-56 million, and the Eurofighter is about $58-760 million

"The F-15 can fly a longer distance with a larger payload than the Rafale, fight it's way into hostile territory, deliver it's ordinance, and fight it's way back home."

pound for pound, the Rafale can carry more ordnance than any other fighter in the world, did an article that stated that, it was on strategypage.com or something like that

also, are you saying that the Rafale cannot do the last part of your sentence?



also, just to support jgetti, no one is really sure how well the Rafale will actually perform in combat, so, that is another bonus for the F-15

but another positive for the Rafale is that it has beter maintainability, lower costs for maintenance

btw, the approximate prices for the other aircraft is
Su-35: approximately $30-35 million
MiG-29M: about $30 million
F-18E/F: about $41 million
JAS-39: and about $40 million

jgetti
28 Apr 05,, 14:50
yea, actually, it is $100 million a piece

http://www.deagel.com/pandora/?p=pm00074006

"And I read the Rafale has $50m unit cost. With parts and training etc. it'd probably work out to be more or less the same as the F-15K given how insanely expensive military hardware has become."

well, actually, it's closer to $55-56 million, and the Eurofighter is about $58-760 million

"The F-15 can fly a longer distance with a larger payload than the Rafale, fight it's way into hostile territory, deliver it's ordinance, and fight it's way back home."

pound for pound, the Rafale can carry more ordnance than any other fighter in the world, did an article that stated that, it was on strategypage.com or something like that

also, are you saying that the Rafale cannot do the last part of your sentence?



also, just to support jgetti, no one is really sure how well the Rafale will actually perform in combat, so, that is another bonus for the F-15

but another positive for the Rafale is that it has beter maintainability, lower costs for maintenance

btw, the approximate prices for the other aircraft is
Su-35: approximately $30-35 million
MiG-29M: about $30 million
F-18E/F: about $41 million
JAS-39: and about $40 million

Dima, I can tell you that your prices for the F/A-18 E/F is too low and the price for the F-15K is too high.

ajaybhutani
28 Apr 05,, 15:22
Dima, I can tell you that your prices for the F/A-18 E/F is too low and the price for the F-15K is too high.
whats ur approx for the prices of the two??

jgetti
28 Apr 05,, 15:54
whats ur approx for the prices of the two??

Super Hornet: $58 mil
Eagle: $75 mil

Unipidity
28 Apr 05,, 23:48
What does Singapore actually use its airforce for?

troung
29 Apr 05,, 01:44
To deter foriegn aggresion...

sniperdude411
29 Apr 05,, 02:17
What does Singapore actually use its airforce for?
To give the counrty preemptive air-strike capabilities whenever the country feels like it. So if you make Singapore mad, they'll send-out some aircraft and blow your house up. Now that's the real reason they have their airforce.

Dima
29 Apr 05,, 03:40
Dima, I can tell you that your prices for the F/A-18 E/F is too low and the price for the F-15K is too high.

REALLY? because i got them form this site

http://www.deagel.com/pandora/?p=pm00067005
and
http://www.deagel.com/pandora/?p=pm00074006

where are your sources for this, perhaps i should start using those instead