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What surrounds the Iowa's 5" Magazines

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  • What surrounds the Iowa's 5" Magazines

    I was looking at the Iowa class blueprints
    and found the four 5 inch magazines under the armor decks
    over engine rooms one and three
    my question is.......

    does anybody know what armor is on the sides and back and or bottom
    of these four magazines? is there any?

    not in dulin garzke "Battleships"
    not in friedmans "US Battleships"
    not in friedmans "Battleships design and development"
    not in malcom muirs "Iowa class Battleships"
    not in Anthony j watts "Battleships"

    Googled for hours and its not on the internet

    HELP pete

  • #2
    You wont find that in any book or blueprints made available to the public. Nor will you find the armor scheme to her main battery magazines.;)

    Lets just say that her 5" hoists alone are heavily plated and are interior of the propellant cartridge hoists which are also heavily plated. At one time 5 sets of hoists to service 5 dual mount 5"/38 guns both Starboard and Port sides.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 19 Feb 10,, 19:35.
    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

    Comment


    • #3
      Sounds more like a question dircted to me.

      Besides torpedo bulkhead 3 on the outboard side of the twin magazines (a bulkhead of 1/2 inch thick steel separated the propellent cannisters from the projectiles} it was mostly 3/8 to 1/2 inch thick steel all around.

      The splinter deck above (5/8" thick on BB 61 & 62 -- 3/4" thick on BB 63 & 64) was only 30 inches below the 2nd deck which is 6" thick of laminated steel (1 1/4" of STS with 4 3/4" Class B armor on top).

      The only fire fighting sprinkler systems aboard a warship were in the propellent magazines and on some ships also the projectile magazines (especially those that also held White Phophorus rounds). Other wise there was not much armor around them as it would take quite a weapons to punch that far into the ship that the space would be blown into carpet tacks anyway.

      All of the ammo handling trunks (including the 40 mm trunks) are made of 3/4 inch thick Special Treated Steel (STS with a 110 kpsi yield strength). During modernization in the 1980's we retained all trunks no longer used for 40 mm ammo and for the four 5"/38 mounts we removed. Those trunks were then used as cable way trunks or piping trunks for new equipment.

      Two of the 5-inch ammo mags on the port side were converted into air conditioning machinery rooms. Each A/C compressor put out 120 ton capacity and there were 3 in each fomer magazine. I had one hell of a time figuring out how to get them aboard ship. It required several bulkheads to be cut open and the compressors themselves had to be disassemled into their 3 major modules to get them in and reassembled. Two more compressors were installed up forward in the old Teletype room.

      Originally we were only budgeted to install 7 compressors but leave room for an eigth unit to be installed at some future availability. However, due to the compexity of getting them into the space, it was cheaper to install it already during the moderniztion phase including pumps, valves, piping and seachest intakes and discharges. All the ship had to do later was open up the seawater valves, flip a switch for the pump and flip a couple of other switches to activate the compressor. We actually saved the taxpayers lots of money and took weeks off of dry dock time to do it completely in the first place.

      We were tasked later on to install a small 5" WP (White Phosporus) projectile magazine. We (Gordon Douglas who was one of my co-workers and an excellent researcher) had to remind NAVSEA/NAVWEPS that WP must be stowed vertical instead of horizontal like all other 5" rounds. Also a deluge tank had to be nearby already filled with water in case the WP started to chemically expand and start leaking through the nose fuse.
      Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

      Comment


      • #4
        As usual THNX

        not in dulin garzke "Battleships"
        not in friedmans "US Battleships"
        not in friedmans "Battleships design and development"
        not in malcom muirs "Iowa class Battleships"
        not in Anthony j watts "Battleships"
        and its not on the internet

        not in my copy of Rustys yellow book either,
        just checked forgot bout that one

        But as usual Rusty came through
        thanks
        So what I gather the four 5" mags have 1/2" STS or HTS
        on walls "bulkheads" and maybe 5/8" HTS on floor "deck"
        is that correct?


        By the way Dred..... the 16 inch mags on Iowa (there are 20 of them)
        have 1.5" STS Bulkheads all around with the side facing the TDS
        replacing the 5/8" HTS holding bulkhead
        the Overhead deck "roof" is 1" STS with a "possible" .625 or .75" STS
        extension of 3rd deck over that
        the internal bulkheads in the magazines are 1.5" STS
        and the foot or stool of the turrets is 1.5" STS at bottom of Mags
        WELL Protected!

        got that from above books
        Rusty was that correct?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by petsan View Post
          not in dulin garzke "Battleships"
          not in friedmans "US Battleships"

          So what I gather the four 5" mags have 1/2" STS or HTS
          on walls "bulkheads" and maybe 5/8" HTS on floor "deck"
          is that correct?


          By the way Dred..... the 16 inch mags on Iowa (there are 20 of them)
          have 1.5" STS Bulkheads all around with the side facing the TDS
          replacing the 5/8" HTS holding bulkhead
          the Overhead deck "roof" is 1" STS with a "possible" .625 or .75" STS
          extension of 3rd deck over that
          the internal bulkheads in the magazines are 1.5" STS
          and the foot or stool of the turrets is 1.5" STS at bottom of Mags
          WELL Protected!

          got that from above books
          Rusty was that correct?
          For the 5 inchers, believe or not I forgot what the deck is. What I mentioned was the overhead which is the splinter deck 30" below the armored 2nd deck.

          As for the 16" mags, the main armor beteen the powder magazines and the turret is the 1 1/2" thick turret foundation. The circular bulkheads (there are two of them to provide a flash trap between the turret and powder mags which saved the rest of the gun crew during the turret II incident on Iowa) are not necessarily that thick as I recall them. Embarrassing as the last time I was down in the magazines of the Iowa was only a little more than 3 years ago.

          Maybe I've just gotten too used to crawling around all four Battleships over the years that it's just another day at the job.

          The doors are heavy but not like the armored doors we put into CEC. Yet the duplicity of circular bulkheads did exactly what they were designed for. Therefore the only crewmen killed were those in the lower powder hoist room at the bottom and within the turret foundation. Those in the powder rooms were protected and they only knew something didn't sound right until they opened the doors and found the powder hoist room on fire. Then they exited by a separate route that was not affected.

          5-inch magazines on third deck are not plated very heavy and one time while inspecting the Iowa in Norfolk I was down in Engine Room 3 (all the way down) when the 1 MC announced a fire in one of the 5-inch magazines. However, that turned out to be only an unexpected activation of the sprinkler system and when water started pouring out the flapper valve into Broadway it was assumed they were on due to a fire.

          Fortunately it wasn't but I stayed down in ER 3 figuring it was far enough away than for me to expose myself going up to Broadway and back up through the ladder to the galley.

          That was just another one of those days that when I got back to our hotel I stopped in the bar first for a double before taking a shower.
          Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

          Comment


          • #6
            5-inch magazines on third deck are not plated very heavy and one time while inspecting the Iowa in Norfolk I was down in Engine Room 3 (all the way down) when the 1 MC announced a fire in one of the 5-inch magazines.


            Wow thats what I thought
            Thanks Rusty

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by petsan View Post
              not in dulin garzke "Battleships"
              not in friedmans "US Battleships"
              not in friedmans "Battleships design and development"
              not in malcom muirs "Iowa class Battleships"
              not in Anthony j watts "Battleships"
              and its not on the internet

              not in my copy of Rustys yellow book either,
              just checked forgot bout that one

              But as usual Rusty came through
              thanks
              So what I gather the four 5" mags have 1/2" STS or HTS
              on walls "bulkheads" and maybe 5/8" HTS on floor "deck"
              is that correct?


              By the way Dred..... the 16 inch mags on Iowa (there are 20 of them)
              have 1.5" STS Bulkheads all around with the side facing the TDS
              replacing the 5/8" HTS holding bulkhead
              the Overhead deck "roof" is 1" STS with a "possible" .625 or .75" STS
              extension of 3rd deck over that
              the internal bulkheads in the magazines are 1.5" STS
              and the foot or stool of the turrets is 1.5" STS at bottom of Mags
              WELL Protected!

              got that from above books
              Rusty was that correct?
              Hmm, Could you do a favor? Just to see how accurate those books are, look at the 5"/38 dual purpose mount info. See what they state that elevation is for them. We will come back to the armor after I chop a few images.

              *And by the way I would certainly trust what Rusty states over a majority of the books in print.;)
              Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

              Comment


              • #8
                5" Hoist armor plating.

                Just to put in perspective how thick the plating is on the hoists (5" starboard mount hoist). Not only do you have the armor plating in the decks but also plating on the hoists themselves to assist in protecting the 5" magazines and where the hoist pentetrates the decks and bulkheads. Your looking at over 2" thick plating at minimum more like 2-1/2" thick. This is a maintenance access to one of the hoists.
                Attached Files
                Last edited by Dreadnought; 24 Feb 10,, 06:11.
                Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

                Comment


                • #9
                  No. The hoists themselves were "only" 3/4" thick STS plate. The flanges shown in the pics give an impression of heavier plating.

                  Of the hoists to guns that we removed in modernization, we used them for "armored" electrical and piping runs.

                  I know for a fact the plating was only 3/4" thick because I was tasked to design a modification to a turn in the port and stbd powder hoists of Mounts 53 and 54 to take the longer 5"/54 powder cannisters (the propellent case is not unloaded until it reaches the upper ammo handling room just below the gun).

                  We would have to machine out about 3/16" inch of the inside of the outer plate of one of the turns to allow the longer cannister to pass.

                  STS plate (Special Treated Steel) was a low carbon alloy but with a yield strength of 110 kpsi. There used to be a more detailed specification on what to make it out of until WW II came along. Then the specs were shortened to limit only the carbon content and the yield strength so steel companies could use any alloy they wanted to meet the demand of STS plating for ships, half-tracks, etc.

                  In any case, all welding had to be done with 25-20 welding rods. That's 25% chromium and 20% nickel. The other 55% was almost all iron with a couple of other alloys thrown in for good measure though there was a limit on carbon and sulphur.

                  The 5"/38 upper handling rooms and the 5"/38 gun houses were 2 1/2" thick STS. Had to cut through the upper handling rooms to install new 1 1/2" thick HY-80 armored vent ducts and change out the ventilation system from exhaust only to supply AND exhaust - thus requiring the extra vent ducts (photo on page 245 of my book).
                  Last edited by RustyBattleship; 24 Feb 10,, 06:59.
                  Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by RustyBattleship View Post
                    No. The hoists themselves were "only" 3/4" thick STS plate. The flanges shown in the pics give an impression of heavier plating.

                    Of the hoists to guns that we removed in modernization, we used them for "armored" electrical and piping runs.

                    I know for a fact the plating was only 3/4" thick because I was tasked to design a modification to a turn in the port and stbd powder hoists of Mounts 53 and 54 to take the longer 5"/54 powder cannisters (the propellent case is not unloaded until it reaches the upper ammo handling room just below the gun).

                    (the propellent case is not unloaded until it reaches the upper ammo handling room just below the gun).


                    We would have to machine out about 3/16" inch of the inside of the outer plate of one of the turns to allow the longer cannister to pass.

                    STS plate (Special Treated Steel) was a low carbon alloy but with a yield strength of 110 kpsi. There used to be a more detailed specification on what to make it out of until WW II came along. Then the specs were shortened to limit only the carbon content and the yield strength so steel companies could use any alloy they wanted to meet the demand of STS plating for ships, half-tracks, etc.

                    In any case, all welding had to be done with 25-20 welding rods. That's 25% chromium and 20% nickel. The other 55% was almost all iron with a couple of other alloys thrown in for good measure though there was a limit on carbon and sulphur.

                    The 5"/38 upper handling rooms and the 5"/38 gun houses were 2 1/2" thick STS. Had to cut through the upper handling rooms to install new 1 1/2" thick HY-80 armored vent ducts and change out the ventilation system from exhaust only to supply AND exhaust - thus requiring the extra vent ducts (photo on page 245 of my book).
                    *Rusty, what I am refering to is the exposed side of the hoist itself, where it transitions the deck and turns to penetrate the bulkhead not the entire hoist sections as a whole. Only the horizontal exposed sections as pictured above. I know full well the sides and lower (bottom) horizontal surfaces from the hoist are 3/4". Its visable down in the magazine at the very base of the hoist through out the vertical sections of the hoist. Perhaps I should have shown the hoist base also as a reference so one could see the thickness of the plating in the vertical section as compared to the transitions. My bad.

                    As far as the upper handling room goes I'm in full agreement. The powder canisters have to pass through the brass butterfly loader access and be loaded upside down (flanged lip up) and literally "punched" in using your fist (and they do slam shut) on the upper portion of the canister to keep your fingers clear in the upper hoist before making it to the actual gun itself. If your fingers did get caught (has happened before) or the hoist loaded improperly (cartridge lip down), the release is directly behind the brass butterfly access on the reverse side of the hoist in a pull out knob to release the brass butterflys and your digits. But if your a "lefty" (and get your fingers pinched) you may have troubles finding the release mechanism with your right hand because of its location on the reverse side of the hoist.

                    Shells, once they come up from the hoist into the upper handling room, taken flipped upside down and reinserted into the mount hoist so the proximity fuse can be set on its way up the hoist to the gun itself. From there ready to be dropped in the brass loading tray and slid into the breech, fuse is already set.
                    Last edited by Dreadnought; 24 Feb 10,, 16:56.
                    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I have some sections of the 5" hoist removed from the New Jersey still, and they are 100# STS or 2 1/2 inches thick.

                      No..... you can't have them

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DreadnaughtHelper View Post
                        I have some sections of the 5" hoist removed from the New Jersey still, and they are 100# STS or 2 1/2 inches thick.

                        No..... you can't have them
                        I think those were the cutouts from the upper handling rooms for the new armored vents --- that YOU designed. We never removed ANY of the hoists including the 40 mm hoists.

                        And I wish I had one of your artifacts. Need a new anvil to build more wrought iron fencing.
                        Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          After pulling out one of my tattered copies of the Missouri's Booklet of General Plans, I found that the decks (3rd Deck) were 20# STS (20.4 psf or 1/2" thick Special Treated Steel) and the bulkheads were 25# (25.5 psf) STS.

                          As I said earlier, the overhead is the splinter deck of 25.5# STS that is 30" below the 2nd deck that is a total of 6" thick.
                          Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

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