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crooks
09 Feb 10,, 16:50
France to issue citizens' handbooks to every child

• PM unveils new measures following identity debate
• All schools will be ordered to fly the French flag


French children are to be given a "citizen's handbook" to teach them to be better republicans, as part of national identity measures announced by the government today.

Schools will be ordered to fly the French flag and to have a copy of the 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen in every classroom.

The measures, announced by the French prime minister, François Fillon, are the first to emerge from the country's controversial debate on national identity.

Under new rules, immigrants who come to live in France, who since 2007 have had to sign a contract of welcome and integration, will have to take part in a more solemn ceremony to become French citizens. They will also be expected to demonstrate a better command of the French language and a greater knowledge of the "values of the republic". All candidates will be required to sign a "charter" outlining their rights and responsibilities.

Lessons for immigrant parents, *currently being tested in 12 regions, will be introduced across the country from September.

"The emphasis will be put on the respect for the values of the republic … notably the principle of equality between men and women … and the level of knowledge of the French language," said Fillon.

His comments came less than a week after France's immigration minister, Eric Besson – a Socialist party defector personally appointed by President Nicolas Sarkozy to manage the national identity debate – refused to grant nationality to a Moroccan man who allegedly obliges his wife to wear the burka. The French government is also considering a ban on burkas and full veils in public places.

The carnet du citoyen, a form of citizen's manual, will "follow pupils' civic education from primary to lycée … to better prepare them for the exercise of their future responsibilities" as citizens.

"The Tricolor must be affixed to every school and the 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, which constitutes our republican reference, must be present in each class," said Fillon.

A "committee of personalities", made up of MPs, intellectuals and historians, will be set up to "follow the application of the measures decided today and to propose new ones", he added.

He said the government would announce further measures in the coming months and that Sarkozy would make a statement in April.

The debate on national identity, which Fillon described as a "popular success", has been fiercely criticised as xenophobic. Critics say it is playing to voters on the extreme right of the political spectrum in the runup to regional elections next month. However, Fillon said it would continue throughout the rest of the government's term, which ends in 2012.

More than 58,000 French people have contributed on a site set up to encourage ideas and comments.

"The subject has been dodged for too long. The question of national identity needs to be debated in the long time and in a natural, calm and non-partisan way because nothing is worse than silence. Nothing is worse and damaging than things unspoken and stigmas that we know have always played into the hands of extremists," said Fillon.


France to issue citizens' handbooks to every child | World news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/08/france-citizen-handbooks-identity-debate)

Interesting proposals - somebody's obviously willing to fight 'Eurabia':)).

The compulsion aspects are a bit worrying, national pride is not something you should indoctrinate (the French are always bad on that, look at how they crushed Breton and Basque as identities:(), it should come naturally, or else it's not really pride.

Dreadnought
09 Feb 10,, 17:26
*I hope one of the first few guidelines is.....

*Stop being a repugnant ignorrant asshole, you are no better then anyone else so act grown up instead of some snotty child that the world owes something to because we dont!.

*Shaving is not a crime punishable by death.:P

I bet De Gaulle would roll over in his grave.:))

Iain
09 Feb 10,, 19:39
I wouldn't really call it indoctrination...I mean American schools fly the flag etc, I don't know why more countries DON'T.

I don't remember the last time I saw my country's flag...anywhere?

dave lukins
09 Feb 10,, 20:09
I don't remember the last time I saw my country's flag...anywhere?

I thought about that for a while and I must admit neither have I. We did have a 'frenzy' of flag waving when England footy team played for some tribal war cup a couple of years ago :))

Iain
09 Feb 10,, 20:12
I thought about that for a while and I must admit neither have I. We did have a 'frenzy' of flag waving when England footy team played for some tribal war cup a couple of years ago :))

Aye lol, but I think, for some reason waving a Union Flag is frowned upon here...BNP hijacked it I guess.

Tronic
09 Feb 10,, 20:52
I thought about that for a while and I must admit neither have I. We did have a 'frenzy' of flag waving when England footy team played for some tribal war cup a couple of years ago :))

Good to hear we're not the only ones. Hell, it is illegal for us to fly the Indian flag anywhere.

crooks
09 Feb 10,, 21:19
I wouldn't really call it indoctrination...I mean American schools fly the flag etc, I don't know why more countries DON'T.

I don't remember the last time I saw my country's flag...anywhere?

The Schools should 100% fly a flag - my school did, the one I work in now does, a flag out front is a great uniter, of what the citizen aspires to and lives under.

But this going to each kid individually, giving them books (undoubtably written in a certain way), while well meaning is a bit much, and overstepping the mark.

Patriotism is in-built, the state shouldn't have to build it and if it is it's not real patriotism.

Iain
09 Feb 10,, 21:23
The Schools should 100% fly a flag - my school did, the one I work in now does, a flag out front is a great uniter, of what the citizen aspires to and lives under.

But this going to each kid individually, giving them books (undoubtably written in a certain way), while well meaning is a bit much, and overstepping the mark.

Patriotism is in-built, the state shouldn't have to build it and if it is it's not real patriotism.

Yeah but France is being over run by people who are not French, you can't say that was 'in-built' - it was artificial.

And America does it, so no reason why not I guess.

Dreadnought
09 Feb 10,, 21:27
And America does it, so no reason why not I guess.

*Yep but we are infact truely proud!;):))

Iain
09 Feb 10,, 21:32
And America does it, so no reason why not I guess.

*Yep but we are infact truely proud!;):))

True! Hell, if I was American I know I'd be proud.

crooks
09 Feb 10,, 21:40
Yeah but France is being over run by people who are not French, you can't say that was 'in-built' - it was artificial.

And America does it, so no reason why not I guess.

I wouldn't call it overrun, and the French have a very strong and positive national identity.

France will always be French, history has seen to that, they are a nation created through centuries of slow amalgation, much like the English or indeed Scots - America was a nation that was built from scratch, neccessity forced them to be more authoritarian about their patriotism, that's not a criticism of the US, it's just what had to happen for them to build a strong identity, now a fine and honourable one.

I'm Irish, proudly, my children will be too - I don't need a government handbook or class quiz to tell me that, and don't think Séan Og or Gráinne should have to take one either.

Part of the value of liberal democracy is choice - I choose to vote, and I choose to be patriotic.
By making it a choice we ensure we'll be stronger and more united - forcing creates resentment, and rightly so.

Iain
09 Feb 10,, 21:43
I wouldn't call it overrun, and the French have a very strong and positive national identity.

France will always be French, history has seen to that, they are a nation created through centuries of slow amalgation, much like the English or indeed Scots - America was a nation that was built from scratch, neccessity forced them to be more authoritarian about their patriotism, that's not a criticism of the US, it's just what had to happen for them to build a strong identity, now a fine and honourable one.

I'm Irish, proudly, my children will be too - I don't need a government handbook or class quiz to tell me that, and don't think Séan Og or Gráinne should have to take one either.

Part of the value of liberal democracy is choice - I choose to vote, and I choose to be patriotic.
By making it a choice we ensure we'll be stronger and more united - forcing creates resentment, and rightly so.

Sure, but hey it's only a book with their constitutional rights, if anything it's informative. As for the flag thing, I think it's good, but again, it reminds (and there is a lot of them) immigrants who don't feel part of France, that they ARE actually IN France.

crooks
09 Feb 10,, 21:56
Sure, but hey it's only a book with their constitutional rights, if anything it's informative. As for the flag thing, I think it's good, but again, it reminds (and there is a lot of them) immigrants who don't feel part of France, that they ARE actually IN France.

If it is just constitutional rights, or even a big nationalist book that's purely apolitical and not seeking to influence but inform, that's fine - I'm envisioning a 'France is a, b and c, in part because of our fantastic government!'

And on flags I agree, though the best thing to do about immigrants who don't feel part of France is using educational opportunities like this to include them and remind they aren't just in France, but that France is their country too.

Mihais
09 Feb 10,, 22:37
And on flags I agree, though the best thing to do about immigrants who don't feel part of France is using educational opportunities like this to include them and remind they aren't just in France, but that France is their country too.



Part of the value of liberal democracy is choice - I choose to vote, and I choose to be patriotic.
By making it a choice we ensure we'll be stronger and more united - forcing creates resentment, and rightly so.

Some mean people may call these a contradiction.I'm not mean.:rolleyes:

Now,a question.If somebody chooses not to be patriotic,is it fair for the country to give a c..p about the said individual?

gunnut
09 Feb 10,, 22:51
I wouldn't really call it indoctrination...I mean American schools fly the flag etc, I don't know why more countries DON'T.

I don't remember the last time I saw my country's flag...anywhere?

Are you serious? UK schools don't fly the Union Jack?

Every single McDonald's in this country (with a stand alone building) flies the Star Spangled Banner. And McDonald's is not even a government agency.


Good to hear we're not the only ones. Hell, it is illegal for us to fly the Indian flag anywhere.

WHAT? What has this world come to?

Iain
09 Feb 10,, 22:57
Are you serious? UK schools don't fly the Union Jack?

Every single McDonald's in this country (with a stand alone building) flies the Star Spangled Banner. And McDonald's is not even a government agency.



WHAT? What has this world come to?

Macdonald's flies the flag ey? That's awesome, I love how everywhere in the U.S. has the flag.

Here, if you fly a Union Flag, if anything people will turn their noses up, think you're some kind of right wing fascist.

Not that I'd be really proud to fly the flag to be honest...

crooks
09 Feb 10,, 22:58
Some mean people may call these a contradiction.I'm not mean.:rolleyes:

How? - it's acknowledging what one lives under.

It's not forcing someone to sprinkle tears of joy upon the flag, ignore it if they wish, it's the reality of a nation, and the nation should reach out to cherish everyone...it's ultimately their call whether to be active citizens or not, no school or organisation should be ashamed to fly a flag though.


Now,a question.If somebody chooses not to be patriotic,is it fair for the country to give a c..p about the said individual?

In a liberal democracy, they're a douche but that's about it - would you like a firing squad?

People make choices about what they think about their country - like virtually everyone in Ireland I love this country, I won't force anyone who doesn't to feel that way though.

Are we better off without them?

Possibly, society shouldn't be able to punish people by how much they love their country though.

JAD_333
10 Feb 10,, 01:53
Good to hear we're not the only ones. Hell, it is illegal for us to fly the Indian flag anywhere.

I have to ask. Why?

antimony
10 Feb 10,, 02:49
I have to ask. Why?

Because apparently in our socialist republic no one less than a constitutional figure can be trusted to show proper respect to the flag.

What would happen, for example, if the flag is displayed upside down (oh e horror)?

There are very strict guidelines, and any breach may be considered an "insult"
You can read the whole protocol here
Flag of India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_India#Protocol)

IMHO, one of the stupidest uses of legistative process that our political class would think that the legacy and glory of the Tricolor can be "insulted" by mere misuse or mishandling

Tronic
10 Feb 10,, 06:16
I have to ask. Why?

Think antimony covered it; though, since 2002 a new flag code act was passed, which allows civilians to fly the flag, but there are so many terms and conditions, it is a headache and no one bothers, lest they have to face all the legal jargon. Heck, even most government buildings don't fly the flag. Even driving through the Capitol, you'll be lucky if you see a building flying the Tiranga (the Indian flag).

chakos
10 Feb 10,, 06:56
:))
Think antimony covered it; though, since 2002 a new flag code act was passed, which allows civilians to fly the flag, but there are so many terms and conditions, it is a headache and no one bothers, lest they have to face all the legal jargon. Heck, even most government buildings don't fly the flag. Even driving through the Capitol, you'll be lucky if you see a building flying the Tiranga (the Indian flag).

Are you legally allowed to fly that flag under your wab avatar? Isnt that showing it disrespect, especially if the poster of the previous post was from say Pakistan. A Pakistani flag flown above the Indian one...agony...well now i suppose i understand why commoners shall not be allowed to fly the Indian flag, it all makes sense now.

Dreadnought
10 Feb 10,, 13:16
Macdonald's flies the flag ey? That's awesome, I love how everywhere in the U.S. has the flag.

Here, if you fly a Union Flag, if anything people will turn their noses up, think you're some kind of right wing fascist.

Not that I'd be really proud to fly the flag to be honest...

*There is not too many places where you could look around and not see the American flag in this country. Particularly homes (especially our troops homes or their families, normally lit by a white light) and all others who are not military but normal citizens, businesses, transportation facilities, fast food restaurants, sporting facilities, law enforcement, emergency service buildings, hospitals,industry,sporting complexes and events, concerts, cemetaries and especially on vehicles of all kinds and clothing as well as boats, ships etc. As mentioned its hard to look around in this country and not see one within eyesight. Thats the way we are. United.;)

*Flying flags under the American flag, for some they fly a flag of their origin (country) for many others it would be the American flag, then the POW/MIA flag (least we forget sacrifices made for that flag) and then a State flag one under the other.

antimony
10 Feb 10,, 16:24
:))

Are you legally allowed to fly that flag under your wab avatar? Isnt that showing it disrespect, especially if the poster of the previous post was from say Pakistan. A Pakistani flag flown above the Indian one...agony...well now i suppose i understand why commoners shall not be allowed to fly the Indian flag, it all makes sense now.

I understand that this was an attempt at humor and that it was directed at Tronic, but I will answer this anyway.

Most of the Indian posters here do not give tuppence for the political class that comes up with such freedom limiting ideas. We are proud of our flag and do not shy away from displaying it.
An event such as 26/11 does more to insult the flag that any "misuse" ever could, so perhaps our political class should turn their attention towards that.

Woodsy the Lar
10 Feb 10,, 17:49
Showing the German Flag is also considerd Racist,normally Germans put the flag up at there garden allotments lots of flagpoles,however thats as far as it goes. In 2006 while the World cup was here it was nice to see Flags draped all over houses,cars and even the emegency service got in on the act. All over now however.:mad:

Which brings me to a little story: In 2001 Germany Got Stuffed at home in a stadium they had never previously lost 1-5 by England, after many many Sherberts in Münich I noticed a Flagpole outside the Town Hall about halfway up the Wall and was in the Act of Raising ST.George when a couple of Friendly Münich Policemen helped me Down again.:)
Who said the Germans do not have a sence of humour:rolleyes:

Iain
10 Feb 10,, 17:56
I have to say one thing I notice is, there are very few Union Flags, but in Scotland in fact, St Andrew's Cross flags EVERYWHERE.

There's one of THOSE at my school, and in almost every class room...

If you wave a Union Flag here, again people turn their noses up. I don't think Scotland feels that British over all.

kato
11 Feb 10,, 03:01
Showing the German Flag is also considerd Racist,normally Germans put the flag up at there garden allotments lots of flagpoles,however thats as far as it goes.
Nah, not racist. It's considered (very) conservative.

Germany's Christian Democrats want schools to fly the German flag too btw. Which is of course a ridiculous proposal - German public schools aren't owned by the federation. They only answer to their state and their city.
Hence schools around here will only fly the Palatinate Lion (city flag), or the Black and Gold two-tone flag of Baden-Württemberg. Whenever the situation demands it, not daily either. Federal flag only when they act as voting offices for federal elections.

As for the book, i got a bound issue of the German Constitution from my school in grade 7 or so. As in the full 93-page thing. Federal Agency for Political Information distributes them for free to anyone.

Iain
11 Feb 10,, 03:06
We get given the New Testament in S1, is that normal for other countries?

kato
11 Feb 10,, 03:08
Only if you're taking religion classes here.

Iain
11 Feb 10,, 03:11
Only if you're taking religion classes here.

Here we all got then given out at an assembly, and we get forced religious classes once a week, hah.

I swear a riot broke out during an RE class of mine.

kato
11 Feb 10,, 03:16
We have a couple faith-based schools around here; mandatory assembly, praying before school, doing good christian volunteer work etc.

Everywhere else, it's voluntary.

One of them is the only girls-only school in town (yeah, catholic schoolgirls... no uniforms though, and they kicked out the nuns ten years ago). That one has like 20% muslim girls, because the muslim parents prefer the idea of a girls-only school. :P

Iain
11 Feb 10,, 03:21
We have a couple faith-based schools around here; mandatory assembly, praying before school, doing good christian volunteer work etc.

Everywhere else, it's voluntary.

One of them is the only girls-only school in town (yeah, catholic schoolgirls... no uniforms though, and they kicked out the nuns ten years ago). That one has like 20% muslim girls, because the muslim parents prefer the idea of a girls-only school. :P

Oh lol. We get a degree of religious rubbish in all public schools.

We gotta' go to church like, twice or three times a year.

pennsy
11 Feb 10,, 04:46
Think antimony covered it; though, since 2002 a new flag code act was passed, which allows civilians to fly the flag, but there are so many terms and conditions, it is a headache and no one bothers, lest they have to face all the legal jargon. Heck, even most government buildings don't fly the flag. Even driving through the Capitol, you'll be lucky if you see a building flying the Tiranga (the Indian flag).

I'm sure I've seen thousands of Indian supporters waving the flag at international cricket matches. Especially when you guys flog us Aussies.;):cool:

pate
14 Feb 10,, 05:37
So the French allow a few North African Muslims some citizenship? How is that different from the Germans allowing a few Turkish Muslims citizenship?

Erm?

pennsy
14 Feb 10,, 07:28
So the French allow a few North African Muslims some citizenship? How is that different from the Germans allowing a few Turkish Muslims citizenship?

Erm?

A FEW Muslim citizens?

According to the French Ministry of Interior the Muslim population in 2001 was approximately 4.1 million.

German sources declare 4.3 million Muslim ( insert population for citizens) citizens in 2009.

These figures are sourced from Wiki, so there would possibly be more reliable figures elsewhere.

Tarek Morgen
14 Feb 10,, 07:54
uhm you know there is a difference between population and citizenship? Just because one lives in a country one does not automaticly become a citizen. For example of the 4.3 Million Muslims in Germany you mentions less then the half have German citizenship. The majority of the rest still have their Turkish one. I would assume that this is not that much different in France.

pennsy
14 Feb 10,, 09:35
uhm you know there is a difference between population and citizenship? Just because one lives in a country one does not automaticly become a citizen. For example of the 4.3 Million Muslims in Germany you mentions less then the half have German citizenship. The majority of the rest still have their Turkish one. I would assume that this is not that much different in France.

Thankyou for pointing out my error Tarek:)

HillTribe
14 Feb 10,, 10:02
More than anything, this seems an attempt by the French government to preempt the emergence and ascendancy of "ghetto ethnic identity" over the French national identity in North African immigrant communities.

There seems to at least one European nation willing to take sides in what is essentially a politically messy issue, when European nations like the UK have given in to the inevitability of the Sharia in certain sections of the society:

Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7232661.stm)

Way to go France. Show the pansies how its unapologetically done! :))

When a community has dual loyalties, and a parallel system of legal code (Sharia and the National Law), things can and will get tricky... For example, India has two set of marriage acts, one for the Muslim and another for the rest. Indian members on this forum please correct me if I am wrong.

In the event of war, say (hypothetically) with Saudi Arabia, can the Muslim soldier in the British army be trusted on the Meccan front? Remember Major Hassan Nidal?

What the french have instituted is commendable. This will be a good step towards inculcating French values and loyalty to the French nation that will be paramount over all other allegiances.

Also the French SHOULD NOT back down over the Burka and Niqab, unless the menfolk wear them too! That way gender segregation would no longer be an issue, although it would still be ruled out as a religious symbol in the secular French Republic.

kato
14 Feb 10,, 11:17
Just because one lives in a country one does not automaticly become a citizen.
Technically, everyone who has legally lived continuously in Germany for 8 years can apply for naturalization. About 50% of Turkish who could apply for it don't do it though.
Of ~2.1 million Turkish living in Germany, about one third are naturalized, one third have unlimited residence permits, and one third have limited residence permits.
(this does not include children with dual citizenship - born after 2000 - or children born to Turkish and German parents, who both have German citizenship from birth)

Germany currently naturalizes <40,000 muslims per year (decreasing), while >10,000 muslims lose German citizenship per year - in particular young Turkish men who have to decide where to serve their conscription.

Ramo
25 Feb 10,, 05:04
In Australia we rarely fly the flag except when we drape it over our shoulders like a superman cape whilst bashing foreigners in race riots. :(

Tronic
25 Feb 10,, 06:46
I'm sure I've seen thousands of Indian supporters waving the flag at international cricket matches. Especially when you guys flog us Aussies.;):cool:

Well, cricket is cricket. :)) I meant flying the flag say over your house, or on your car. Its been legalized only very recently but there are still so many terms and conditions attached, no one bothers.

captain
25 Feb 10,, 07:14
In Australia we rarely fly the flag except when we drape it over our shoulders like a superman cape whilst bashing foreigners in race riots. :(

BS. What cave are you living in?:mad:

pate
26 Feb 10,, 01:47
...
There seems to at least one European nation willing to take sides in what is essentially a politically messy issue, when European nations like the UK have given in to the inevitability of the Sharia in certain sections of the society:

Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7232661.stm)

Way to go France. Show the pansies how its unapologetically done! :))



I am not confident in my analysis of this. Are you praising France for being the first to welcome foreigners after a thorough 'vetting' process or admonishing Germany for not having done the same?

France has her problems from the Legion Etranger, I don't thing Deutschland has the same albatross...

Germany has the influx of Turkish people much later in the game... I am by no means trying to say that Turks and North Africans are different, even if I am also not trying to say that the two are not the same... Historically speaking...

My gestalten of the situation is obviously different from anyone elses...

And here I go skipping to "Ramble On" from Zep II...

Seriously, look to the way the Romans organized their empire... After the Republic... Carthage predated the 'Empire' moment of Roman history...

Err.

I am drunk so...

PubFather
27 Feb 10,, 00:33
The UK is full of flags
- Scots fly the St Andrews cross and the Lion Rampant
- the Welsh fly the Dragon
- The Irish fly the Tricolour or the Flag of St George with the Hand of Ulster quartered in the flag.

The English cant fly the St Georges nor the Union Jack as they have been utterly hijacked in the media by the idea of skin headed football hooligan and the jack-booted elements of the BNP.

This is detrimental to the union, and the ability of the English to accept other cultures. Part of the liberal establishment is seemingly hell bent on making Englishness equivalent to rampant imperialism, and that that imperialism is responsible for much of the worlds problems....

The English need to reclaim their flag, their identity. Their problem lies is not letting extremist fools highjack their attempts.

dave lukins
27 Feb 10,, 00:40
I remember the last World Cup where I flew a huge flag and was told by some council sop that I needed permission. When I threw him off my property and told him to go **** himself with a cactus he said he was only doing his 'duty'. I told him that I had done my Duty to Queen and Country for 25 yrs in the Army so go tell that to your idiot leader. Strange I never heard another word:confused::)

PubFather
27 Feb 10,, 00:45
SHARIA LAW BS I'm not surprised to see the whole Sharia law scare story re-emerge. Suddenly, Britain will be submerged in Sharia law (albeit with a tiny Muslim population). Virgins will be found, the population will decreased by 95% as drinkers, fornicators and adulterers are stoned to death. Most inner city children will fail their SATs because their hands have been imputed for theft...

It's all horse-poop... different forms of civil law exist in the UK already - Sharia, Jewish, council bye-laws - but they are all subject to an over-arching, secular legal system. If Muslims wish to settle civil disputes according Sharia law - so be it. As long as the verdict isnt contrary to any other law, and both parties agree to it.. where is the problem?

The same differential between state and federal law is well estabished in the USA. It can surely work in a horizontal fashion across the world.

kato
28 Feb 10,, 23:34
different forms of civil law exist in the UK already - Sharia, Jewish, council bye-laws - but they are all subject to an over-arching, secular legal system.
That's pretty much a "British thing" though. Other, actually secular, states do not hand over any jurisdiction to ecclesiastical courts (in Germany for example, ecclesiastical courts exist but may only handle "internal" affairs such as membership or canonical divorce, with zero repercussion on "real life").

pate
03 Mar 10,, 03:58
SHARIA LAW BS...Virgins will be found, the population will decreased by 95% as drinkers, fornicators and adulterers are stoned to death...

I've known a drinker or two to be stoned to death... Doesnt' sound like abad way to go. As for the rest for the rest of it... Don't know if a virgin being found is a blessing or a curse, I guess it depends on wheteher you are an adultuerer or a fornicator...

I am awful Father, I apologize...

Chogy
03 Mar 10,, 14:31
Interesting discussion... offloading civil disputes is a time-honored way to ease the burden on "true" government courts, and has been happening in the US since its inception. Isn't simple mediation a flavor of this? For example, one I am familiar with is the Railway Labor Act, which allows mediators to decide disputes between labor unions and transport companies. For any form of binding mediation to work, all parties must agree to abide by the mediators' decisions, and of course, there must not be a violation of Federal law that would normally require prosecution.

We have "teen" courts as well; mediated divorces, etc.

PubFather
03 Mar 10,, 21:48
That's pretty much a "British thing" though. Other, actually secular, states do not hand over any jurisdiction to ecclesiastical courts (in Germany for example, ecclesiastical courts exist but may only handle "internal" affairs such as membership or canonical divorce, with zero repercussion on "real life").

I can only speak for the UK but any and all agreements aresubject to civil law. Should any agreement be out with civil law, it is null and void and non-binding. Should any party object to the agreement, then they have full recourse to civil (or even criminal) law. In short, its little more than a sop to sensitivities, especially wrt to religious. Even a Church of England marriage still requires a civil element.

Are there not different legal structures within the Lander in Germany?

PubFather
03 Mar 10,, 21:50
I've known a drinker or two to be stoned to death... Doesnt' sound like abad way to go. As for the rest for the rest of it... Don't know if a virgin being found is a blessing or a curse, I guess it depends on wheteher you are an adultuerer or a fornicator...

I am awful Father, I apologize...

In Glasgow finding a virgin would be unlikely....

PubFather
03 Mar 10,, 21:51
Interesting discussion... offloading civil disputes is a time-honored way to ease the burden on "true" government courts, and has been happening in the US since its inception. Isn't simple mediation a flavor of this? For example, one I am familiar with is the Railway Labor Act, which allows mediators to decide disputes between labor unions and transport companies. For any form of binding mediation to work, all parties must agree to abide by the mediators' decisions, and of course, there must not be a violation of Federal law that would normally require prosecution.

We have "teen" courts as well; mediated divorces, etc.

This is exactly what I was referring to - thank you for a US PoV. Are there any religious elements in the US? I was wondering about Jewish legal traditions particularly.

Repatriated Canuck
04 Mar 10,, 01:03
BS. What cave are you living in?:mad:


Australia is the most xenophobic country I have ever been in. I'm white but due to my Canadian accent sounding American I have experienced some of the worst treatment when going out. I'm not even speaking to these people so they go out of their way to come over as a group and tell this Yank "Cbomb" to get out of their country.

I'm up for citizenship this year too by the way. Even my aussie missus is disgusted by Australian behaviour.

Also, people are not too nice to those of colour at times.

Not all people of course but enough that it stains the whole place in an unfavourable light.


Next time you drive count the stickers saying "Love it or Leave it" and my favourite "**** off we're full".



Nice place otherwise.

kato
04 Mar 10,, 19:08
Are there not different legal structures within the Lander in Germany?

Nope. All Länder maintain the same judicial structure - there may be different names for the same court in some states, e.g. in Berlin a Oberlandesgericht is called a Kammergericht, but the functionality is always the same.

The lowest court level in Germany, present in all 400 or so counties, has specialized divisions for certain issues such as family law, inheritance or civil disputes with a low summary worth (under five grand); the kind of things that we're talking about here. These divisions usually only do a single hearing, will hear you without an attorney too, and don't hand out a "verdict" but an "order" or "ruling".

Of course mediation outside courts exists in Germany too; usually facilitated through a neutral attorney or notary, in some states county court divisions offer such services. In theory you could probably start some "Islamic Mediation" shariah court as a private venue through this in Germany, if there isn't already one somewhere.

Chogy
05 Mar 10,, 14:12
This is exactly what I was referring to - thank you for a US PoV. Are there any religious elements in the US? I was wondering about Jewish legal traditions particularly.

It entirely depends upon the parties. Churches, Synagogues, Mosques are all private in the sense that they are NOT forced by law to accept anyone/everyone. By extension, this means they are able to also eject from their congregation any miscreants that don't fit their mold. Since this has nothing to do with Federal or State law, then the Government butts out.

A simple example - repeated fornication is not against any US laws that I am aware of, but being unrepentant about it might cause a Church Council to convene and decide upon excommunication. That person is shown the door. This might be considered a form of court.

Of course, the Church council cannot award a punishment like 100 lashes or amputation of 4 fingers, as this would be in violation of State and Federal law. Pretty much any religious authority in the US extends only to membership, and nothing more. Every so often a religious group is caught administering some sort of punishment, like whipping or confinement, and at that point it becomes a crime, huge news, and prosecution for those responsible.

indus creed
08 Mar 10,, 18:37
Australia is the most xenophobic country I have ever been in. I'm white but due to my Canadian accent sounding American I have experienced some of the worst treatment when going out. I'm not even speaking to these people so they go out of their way to come over as a group and tell this Yank "Cbomb" to get out of their country.

I'm up for citizenship this year too by the way. Even my aussie missus is disgusted by Australian behaviour.

Also, people are not too nice to those of colour at times.

Not all people of course but enough that it stains the whole place in an unfavourable light.


Next time you drive count the stickers saying "Love it or Leave it" and my favourite "**** off we're full".



Nice place otherwise.



A lot of Canadian and US friends of mine have described Oz in similar vain (as expats). These guys are highly educated IT professionals and are white as a fish's belly. You wouldn't expect them to have agendas when it comes to Oz(not that they have agendas with others either).

However it is confusing when I hear contradictory account from our Aussie members or my own relatives who used to live there a while ago. :confused:

Ramo
08 Mar 10,, 21:47
BS. What cave are you living in?:mad:

Are you implying that Australians often fly their flag?

Have you been to the United States for comparison? I don't understand your question.

Ramo
08 Mar 10,, 21:54
Australia is the most xenophobic country I have ever been in. I'm white but due to my Canadian accent sounding American I have experienced some of the worst treatment when going out. I'm not even speaking to these people so they go out of their way to come over as a group and tell this Yank "Cbomb" to get out of their country.

I'm up for citizenship this year too by the way. Even my aussie missus is disgusted by Australian behaviour.

Also, people are not too nice to those of colour at times.

Not all people of course but enough that it stains the whole place in an unfavourable light.


Next time you drive count the stickers saying "Love it or Leave it" and my favourite "**** off we're full".



Nice place otherwise.

Oh, mate, that's awful. I'd only expect that sort of treatment if you went to pubs in the poorer 'boganised' areas of our capital cities. Just steer clear of anyone with a southern cross tattoo!

BenRoethig
10 Mar 10,, 21:46
A lot of Canadian and US friends of mine have described Oz in similar vain (as expats). These guys are highly educated IT professionals and are white as a fish's belly. You wouldn't expect them to have agendas when it comes to Oz(not that they have agendas with others either).

However it is confusing when I hear contradictory account from our Aussie members or my own relatives who used to live there a while ago. :confused:

Unfortunately I've had very similar experiences outside this board. I hope these loudmouths don't speak for the rest of OZ, but I've dealt with some that get very annoyed when you don't use the same terms they use, like they same sports they like, and prefer your truck (sorry I can't say that, I mean pickup) to their Holden Ute. Its like they were somehow entitled to be gods gift to the universe.