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  • Mirage 2000-5 vs F16 blk 52

    I don't know if this has been done or if it's a unfair comparison but here goes.

    I know the Mirage aircraft is very capable and quite reliable and was wondering how it stacks up against the blk 52 or any other variant of the F16 family.

    Comparisons regarding electronics, armament, range, and manuverability is helpful.

  • #2
    Mirage 2000 costs more and the USA gives F-16s away...

    Turning and such the F-16 has it low and the Mirage 2000 has it up high. It would depend on AWACs and such to tip the scales to one or the other. The Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 also has a very capable ECM system and a damn capable radar.

    The F-16 can carry more heavy bombs due to better/more wing loading points. It is not uncommon to see and F-16 with 4 AIM-120s, 2 GBU-10s, 3 drop tanks and 1 LDP. You can't do that with a Mirage. You can do one GBU-10, 3 MICA EM, 2 MICA IE, 2 drop tanks and one LDP. Or you can switch the GBU-10 for 2 GBU-12s and switch the F-16s 2 GBU-10s for 6 GBU-12s. I'm using the older LGBs as an example because I am lazy.

    Yet the Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s stand off strike weapons come a lot easier as France is more willing to export them. The Apache (anti runway) has an 80 mile range and one can be carried with 6 MICAs and 2 drop tanks and the Scalp EG has a 155 mile range can can carry the same missile/drop tank loadout. The F-16 has better all weather ability with the JDAM as the AASM is not combat ready. But one needs to be damn close to get cleared for the JDAM. Yet when the AASM gets ready it would no doubt be easier to get.

    Rather close in air to air combat. ROCAF uses the Mirage 2000-5EI as their standard intercpetor and the F-16A B-20 (B-52 avoinics) as their striker. The Mirage 2000 is a highly rated fighter by the air forces that fly it, more on that later...

    ----
    I'm tired and lazy..... so is this about India vs. Pakistan... please be honest so I can put it maybe into a better context...
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by troung
      Mirage 2000 costs more and the USA gives F-16s away...

      Turning and such the F-16 has it low and the Mirage 2000 has it up high. It would depend on AWACs and such to tip the scales to one or the other. The Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 also has a very capable ECM system and a damn capable radar.

      The F-16 can carry more heavy bombs due to better/more wing loading points. It is not uncommon to see and F-16 with 4 AIM-120s, 2 GBU-10s, 3 drop tanks and 1 LDP. You can't do that with a Mirage. You can do one GBU-10, 3 MICA EM, 2 MICA IE, 2 drop tanks and one LDP. Or you can switch the GBU-10 for 2 GBU-12s and switch the F-16s 2 GBU-10s for 6 GBU-12s. I'm using the older LGBs as an example because I am lazy.

      Yet the Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s stand off strike weapons come a lot easier as France is more willing to export them. The Apache (anti runway) has an 80 mile range and one can be carried with 6 MICAs and 2 drop tanks and the Scalp EG has a 155 mile range can can carry the same missile/drop tank loadout. The F-16 has better all weather ability with the JDAM as the AASM is not combat ready. But one needs to be damn close to get cleared for the JDAM. Yet when the AASM gets ready it would no doubt be easier to get.

      Rather close in air to air combat. ROCAF uses the Mirage 2000-5EI as their standard intercpetor and the F-16A B-20 (B-52 avoinics) as their striker. The Mirage 2000 is a highly rated fighter by the air forces that fly it, more on that later...

      ----
      I'm tired and lazy..... so is this about India vs. Pakistan... please be honest so I can put it maybe into a better context...


      That's a good question

      Mainly yes it is a comparison between the pakistan planes that they are aquiring from the americans and the 12 2000-V planes india might be getting from Quatar not to mention 126 mirage a/c if france wins the contract.

      Anyways I thought they were a good comparison because their both single engine fighter a/c that seem to be pretty close in capabilitys but reports indicate that the mirage engines are not as powerful not to mention it is a delta wing design which might limit it's payload.

      Comment


      • #4
        Well it all depends what Pakistan can get cleared for and what India buys. Both planes can conduct the same roles.

        SCALP EGs and APACHEs are rather expensive per shot but are important for taking out runways from a safe distance and hitting C3 sites for a long distance. I don't know how many India will buy if any. Yet Qatar had 48 or so APACHEs in service so it would be silly not to pick at least those up and put them into service. They would be sure to get the MICA EM and it seems fit the Python Mk.4 onto the planes. The AASM is not in service yet with the ADA but will be in the next few years giving a customer the option of a GPS/IR guided bomb.

        The Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s ICMS Mk.III ECM system is touted as being able to jam the SA-10/SA-11/SA-15/SA-20 as well as the AIM-120 (we'll have to find out one day ;) ). Even the ICMS Mk.II on the Mirage 2000-5EDA/DDAs should be more then able to handle most Pakistan ground and most airbased radars. The Mirage 2000EH/DHs don't have the same ECM systems. If they shell out more money they could fit the IMEWS which offers a SEAD capability of sorts. If India throws out money the M-53 PX3 is around which boosts thrust by 15 percent, just needs some funding.

        Pakistan could be put over the hump as it is rather doubtful they would ever be cleared for the JDAM, JASSM or any of the new "J" weapons. I could see them getting AIM-120s, GBUs, LDPs and such but nothing overly offensive like the AGM-88. I don't know if they would get cleared for the AIM-9X either. No idea on the ECM suite they will be cleared for either.

        India would have a fleet numbers edge with 45 Mirage 2000EH/DHs (RDM-4/7), 12 Mirage 2000-5EDA/DDA (RDY-1) and 126 Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 (RDY-2). If all are brought to the Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 (173ish) model that would give them the most powerful M2K fleet around. Pakistan should get up to 60-70 (number being thrown around but could be less) F-16C/D Block 52s and still have the 28 F-16A/B B-15s (which couldbe brought up to MLU). That's a sizeable edge in the numbers. Those numbers give them an edge in deployment.

        The Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 costs a lot more and Pakistan will more then likely get their F-16s for free. Niether nation has the pilot market cornered. And the planes have differences that each side would try and exploit. But being the attcker would be both good and bad, good because they know when they are to attack and bad because some would more then likely have bombs. Granted with 5-6 MICA EM/IRs a Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 could quickly turn and engage the enemy. Fighting would be rather close.

        Granted I could not see Indian pilots wanting to fly low due to the fact Pakistan lacks decent high alt SAMs but has scores of MANPADs. The bigger investment in guided weapons shows they do want to stay out of range of MANPADs and "trashfire". The HQ-2 (SA-2) would be easily jammed by the ICMS Mk.II much less the Mk.III hell moving around with limited ECM is actually good enough for those.
        To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by troung
          Well it all depends what Pakistan can get cleared for and what India buys. Both planes can conduct the same roles.

          SCALP EGs and APACHEs are rather expensive per shot but are important for taking out runways from a safe distance and hitting C3 sites for a long distance. I don't know how many India will buy if any. Yet Qatar had 48 or so APACHEs in service so it would be silly not to pick at least those up and put them into service. They would be sure to get the MICA EM and it seems fit the Python Mk.4 onto the planes. The AASM is not in service yet with the ADA but will be in the next few years giving a customer the option of a GPS/IR guided bomb.

          The Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s ICMS Mk.III ECM system is touted as being able to jam the SA-10/SA-11/SA-15/SA-20 as well as the AIM-120 (we'll have to find out one day ;) ). Even the ICMS Mk.II on the Mirage 2000-5EDA/DDAs should be more then able to handle most Pakistan ground and most airbased radars. The Mirage 2000EH/DHs don't have the same ECM systems. If they shell out more money they could fit the IMEWS which offers a SEAD capability of sorts. If India throws out money the M-53 PX3 is around which boosts thrust by 15 percent, just needs some funding.

          Pakistan could be put over the hump as it is rather doubtful they would ever be cleared for the JDAM, JASSM or any of the new "J" weapons. I could see them getting AIM-120s, GBUs, LDPs and such but nothing overly offensive like the AGM-88. I don't know if they would get cleared for the AIM-9X either. No idea on the ECM suite they will be cleared for either.

          India would have a fleet numbers edge with 45 Mirage 2000EH/DHs (RDM-4/7), 12 Mirage 2000-5EDA/DDA (RDY-1) and 126 Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 (RDY-2). If all are brought to the Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 (173ish) model that would give them the most powerful M2K fleet around. Pakistan should get up to 60-70 (number being thrown around but could be less) F-16C/D Block 52s and still have the 28 F-16A/B B-15s (which couldbe brought up to MLU). That's a sizeable edge in the numbers. Those numbers give them an edge in deployment.

          The Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 costs a lot more and Pakistan will more then likely get their F-16s for free. Niether nation has the pilot market cornered. And the planes have differences that each side would try and exploit. But being the attcker would be both good and bad, good because they know when they are to attack and bad because some would more then likely have bombs. Granted with 5-6 MICA EM/IRs a Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 could quickly turn and engage the enemy. Fighting would be rather close.

          Granted I could not see Indian pilots wanting to fly low due to the fact Pakistan lacks decent high alt SAMs but has scores of MANPADs. The bigger investment in guided weapons shows they do want to stay out of range of MANPADs and "trashfire". The HQ-2 (SA-2) would be easily jammed by the ICMS Mk.II much less the Mk.III hell moving around with limited ECM is actually good enough for those.
          1. I think the proposed number of 70 includes the upgrades done on already available F16's. Even if more F16s are procured the limited paksitani finances will stretch the induction over the years.
          2. The Fighters cost isnt just the cost of purchase but also the maintenance costs flight uptime costs training costs etc.
          And in all other feilds M2K will be better for india as we already ahve a capability to repair them experience to fly them adn they offer a lower upkeep cost.
          3. The point to be realized is that though F16blk52 will be the strike weapon for pakistan. For india M2K is not the best it can feild. But just the plane to fil up the numbers.
          4. The added support of AWACS will help India a lot.
          5. Price of only the ones purchased from France will be expensive but not hte ones made in india.


          Even with the F16 i wonder if the PAF will get the balls to organize a strike mission in the indian territory due the the presence of the Monsters named MKI.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by troung
            Well it all depends what Pakistan can get cleared for and what India buys. Both planes can conduct the same roles.

            SCALP EGs and APACHEs are rather expensive per shot but are important for taking out runways from a safe distance and hitting C3 sites for a long distance. I don't know how many India will buy if any. Yet Qatar had 48 or so APACHEs in service so it would be silly not to pick at least those up and put them into service. They would be sure to get the MICA EM and it seems fit the Python Mk.4 onto the planes. The AASM is not in service yet with the ADA but will be in the next few years giving a customer the option of a GPS/IR guided bomb.

            The Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s ICMS Mk.III ECM system is touted as being able to jam the SA-10/SA-11/SA-15/SA-20 as well as the AIM-120 (we'll have to find out one day ;) ). Even the ICMS Mk.II on the Mirage 2000-5EDA/DDAs should be more then able to handle most Pakistan ground and most airbased radars. The Mirage 2000EH/DHs don't have the same ECM systems. If they shell out more money they could fit the IMEWS which offers a SEAD capability of sorts. If India throws out money the M-53 PX3 is around which boosts thrust by 15 percent, just needs some funding.

            Pakistan could be put over the hump as it is rather doubtful they would ever be cleared for the JDAM, JASSM or any of the new "J" weapons. I could see them getting AIM-120s, GBUs, LDPs and such but nothing overly offensive like the AGM-88. I don't know if they would get cleared for the AIM-9X either. No idea on the ECM suite they will be cleared for either.

            India would have a fleet numbers edge with 45 Mirage 2000EH/DHs (RDM-4/7), 12 Mirage 2000-5EDA/DDA (RDY-1) and 126 Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 (RDY-2). If all are brought to the Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 (173ish) model that would give them the most powerful M2K fleet around. Pakistan should get up to 60-70 (number being thrown around but could be less) F-16C/D Block 52s and still have the 28 F-16A/B B-15s (which couldbe brought up to MLU). That's a sizeable edge in the numbers. Those numbers give them an edge in deployment.

            The Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 costs a lot more and Pakistan will more then likely get their F-16s for free. Niether nation has the pilot market cornered. And the planes have differences that each side would try and exploit. But being the attcker would be both good and bad, good because they know when they are to attack and bad because some would more then likely have bombs. Granted with 5-6 MICA EM/IRs a Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 could quickly turn and engage the enemy. Fighting would be rather close.

            Granted I could not see Indian pilots wanting to fly low due to the fact Pakistan lacks decent high alt SAMs but has scores of MANPADs. The bigger investment in guided weapons shows they do want to stay out of range of MANPADs and "trashfire". The HQ-2 (SA-2) would be easily jammed by the ICMS Mk.II much less the Mk.III hell moving around with limited ECM is actually good enough for those.

            I've heard good things about the Mirage 2000-5 mk2 and I think currently the indian airforce is fielding mirage 2000H models in their inventory.

            Can the current inventory of mirages in the IAF be brought to the mk2 standard or even close or is it not possible or to expensive. I was wondering what's the difference from the 2000-5 model and the 2000-5 mk2 model and if's a significant one. What do you think out of the five competitors for the contract for india is the better buy in your opinion.

            Good insight nonetheless Troung.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by gangsta540i
              I've heard good things about the Mirage 2000-5 mk2 and I think currently the indian airforce is fielding mirage 2000H models in their inventory.

              Can the current inventory of mirages in the IAF be brought to the mk2 standard or even close or is it not possible or to expensive. I was wondering what's the difference from the 2000-5 model and the 2000-5 mk2 model and if's a significant one. What do you think out of the five competitors for the contract for india is the better buy in your opinion.

              Good insight nonetheless Troung.
              as the engines and the airframes are the same in both. So the avionics radars etc will need a change. And i guess that can be done cheap considering the fact taht most of the avionics will be produced in india.The upgrade will come but only after we know how to make most of the parts we upgraded, I think there should be no need for paying the franch for upgrades(unless theres a war time situation.).

              Comment


              • #8
                An excellent analysis Troung.

                some specs about Mirage2000-5 MK2

                1. It can carry a max. external load of 6300 kg and a fuel load of 4000 kg

                2. While earlier Mirage 2k's have two mission computers, one main and one standby, the Mirage2000-5 MK2 has a single central Modular Data Processing Unit (MDPU) and one Symbol Generator Unit(SGU).It operates all the systems, such as cockpit,HMD,radio communications and navigation equipment, GPS/INS,Digital recon pod etc etc.This same MDPU is based on that of the Rafale.

                3.It has a large Digital EW system which is mounted fully internally.

                4.It has an anolog FBW .(troung whats the difference between analog and digital FBW?)

                5.The highly accurate Totem 3000 ring laser gyro INS with embedded GPS has a terrain following capability.It incorporates a Digital Terrain system.

                6. Now the Best part. The Thales RDY 2 multi mode radar gives the pilot an outstanding detection and tracking ranges.its muli target capabilities permit upto 24 targets to be displayed,out of which 8 can be tracked and four can be simultaneously attacked.

                7. M2k-5-MK2's internally mounted integrated counter measures systems(ICMS) and electronic warfare suite(EW) can defeat all known threats and helps survive over any hostile battlefield.It carries a powerful jammer as well as chaff/flare dispensers.

                8. It is powered by Snecma M53 P2.

                9. It can fire both Mica EM and IR both which are fire and forget missiles and also carries a IRST.

                10. These missiles can also be carried on the under-fuselage attachment points thereby freeing the wing points to carry more fuel. the missiles fitted under these attachment points are ejected and then ignited once away from the aircraft fuselage.

                11.In Air to ground role , Mk2's can carry Scalp EG cruise missiles.

                12. The two seat variant has almost the same internal fuel capacity. on 2% less than the single seater version!!.

                13.Buddy-Buddy refueling system is available.

                14. and finally, During Kosovo crisis, the 15 French Air Force Mirage 2000's based at Aviano Italy had achieved a 100 % availibility rate each day for a period of 3 months.!!
                Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie!'...till you can find a rock. ;)

                Comment


                • #9
                  I've heard good things about the Mirage 2000-5 mk2 and I think currently the indian airforce is fielding mirage 2000H models in their inventory.
                  They have something like 45-50 Mirage 2000EH/DH in service with the RDM-4/7, Super 530D, R-73E, R-550 Mk.2, ARMAT, BGL-1000, Paveway II Mk.13, AS-30L, LITENING II and ATLIS II.

                  Can the current inventory of mirages in the IAF be brought to the mk2 standard or even close or is it not possible or to expensive. I was wondering what's the difference from the 2000-5 model and the 2000-5 mk2 model and if's a significant one.
                  Yes a Mirage 2000E/D can be brought up to the Mirage 2000-5 or Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 model. Don'y quote me but I think its 15 million per plane to bring them up to the new model.

                  What do you think out of the five competitors for the contract for india is the better buy in your opinion.
                  Well to me it always looked like a "competition" to get India the Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2. India knows the airframe like the back of their hand, the older model preformed excellent in the Kargil and France offers excellent tech support.

                  Now the Best part. The Thales RDY 2 multi mode radar gives the pilot an outstanding detection and tracking ranges.its muli target capabilities permit upto 24 targets to be displayed,out of which 8 can be tracked and four can be simultaneously attacked.
                  The RDY-2 can also track targets at around 100 miles. The RDY-1 can do "only" at 75 miles. The RDY-1/2 lose the ability to work with the Super 530D which would make India have to put them up for sale or ditch them.

                  It can fire both Mica EM and IR both which are fire and forget missiles and also carries a IRST.
                  The only difference between the MICA-EM and MICA-IR is the seeker giving them an edge over most missiles as guys on the ground can switch seekers for the missiles.

                  In Air to ground role , Mk2's can carry Scalp EG cruise missiles.
                  And the AM-39 Mk.2, APACHE, BGL-1000, GBU-24, GBU-22, GBU-12 and other goodies. Greece has ordered the French made AASM GPS guided bomb for their Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s.

                  and finally, During Kosovo crisis, the 15 French Air Force Mirage 2000's based at Aviano Italy had achieved a 100 % availibility rate each day for a period of 3 months.!!
                  I remember readign a few years ago that the Mirage 2000EH/DH had the best ready rates of the InAF as well. Generally this plane does have the best ready rates for the air forces it flies in.

                  The highly accurate Totem 3000 ring laser gyro INS with embedded GPS has a terrain following capability.It incorporates a Digital Terrain system.
                  Which is in fact the same INS the MiG-21UPG got.

                  Even with the F16 i wonder if the PAF will get the balls to organize a strike mission in the indian territory due the the presence of the Monsters named MKI.
                  They would no doubt have to launch air strikes. They no doubt plan to launch air strikes on Indian ground units, bridges and other targets. With the ROSE Mirages and H-2/H-4 it shows they have plans to conduct air strikes on enemy units and positions.
                  To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by troung
                    The RDY-2 can also track targets at around 100 miles. The RDY-1 can do "only" at 75 miles. The RDY-1/2 lose the ability to work with the Super 530D which would make India have to put them up for sale or ditch them.
                    Super 530D's can't be slaved to the RDY 1/2 ?! why is it so?
                    Is the RDY radar so different from the older RDM's ?

                    and troung whats the difference between an analog and a digital FBW system?
                    Last edited by hammer; 21 Apr 05,, 14:59.
                    Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie!'...till you can find a rock. ;)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      even if paf gets 80 f-16 blk 52,we have 65 mig29's,50 mki's(more induction is going on),40 miraj2000's.falcons will be their very soon.we will win the airwar very easily.
                      can any one tell which jets india may buy?mig29m2's or miraj2000-5's or grippens?are mig29m2's capable to fight with f-16 blk52?when we may have the delivery of 12 m2k5's from qatar?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The F-16CJ Block52 is a Wild Weasel.

                        You should be comparing the Block50 model.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Block 50's have the GE engine, Block 52's have the PW. Either one can be fitted for WW (CJ/DJ) ops. Not all blk. 50/52's are WW's, the designation for WW is blk. 50D/52D. Blk. 50/52+ have additional tail mounted SAR and AN/APG68 (v)9 radar for enhanced JDAM capability.
                          Last edited by highsea; 22 Apr 05,, 20:27.
                          "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The BIG problem with the Mirage = PRICE. especially compared to MiG29 M2. heck if we are going to spend so much, we might as well spend a few more $s and get the Rafale!

                            Here is a question (probly a little silly):

                            Can a BARS 29 (considerd 90% of big brother BARS N011M) be integrated w. the Mirage 2000 base model? I have read it being advertised for the same. It also seems to have better range than RDY2 (unsure)? I wonder if they would still be able to fire the Scalp EG though ... (perhaps a brahmos then :) ) Hell, if no Apache or Scalp, I'm sure they will have the Air to Surface 3M 24E missile slaved to the a/c (range = 130km).

                            Also, instead of the ICMS MkIII provided by France, can't an Indian Tarang system (same as MKI) be used?

                            Would this not considerably reduce the price of a new Mirage or at least make an upgrade more affordable than 15 million $s per a/c (in case we choose some other MRCA)?

                            Thus you will have a truly MKIzed mirage at truly indian prices - cake, icing, cherry and all I mean if they are going to produce them in India, why not get them just the way you want 'em?


                            Regards,
                            USS.
                            Last edited by uss; 28 Apr 05,, 07:25.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I have read it being advertised for the same. It also seems to have better range than RDY2 (unsure)?
                              The RDY-2 in the Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 not only has a SAR mode but also a 100 mile air to air range.

                              Also, instead of the ICMS MkIII provided by France, can't an Indian Tarang system (same as MKI) be used?
                              I totally doubt the Tarang has been set around dealing with the AIM-120, SA-10, SA-11, SA-15 and SA-20. And the ICMS Mk.III isn't even the best one get even get with the Mirage 2000 family. Plus they are working on a version (testing the ECM sysyem) of the Mirage 2000 to act in the EA-6s role. France is well ahead of most with the ECM.
                              To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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