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ECFR Study: "Time for a post-American Europe"

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  • ECFR Study: "Time for a post-American Europe"

    The European Council on Foreign Relations (ECFR), a nonpartisan europe-wide thinktank, has issued a policy paper on the paths European Union members should approach with regard to their relationship to the USA.

    The full statement can be downloaded e.g. here.

    In essence, it pretty much calls on EU member states to ditch and deny US efforts at bilateral relationships, and instead form a European position to bargain with the US from a strong position. "Assertion, not Ingratiation".

    It highlights three particular situations where EU member states and their appreciation by the USA are at odds (Afghanistan, Russia, Middle East Peace Process), and how a unified assertive approach could have and in the future would yield favourable results (for the european state of course, not the USA).

    Previous policy papers by the same group focussed on the EU-China and - in particular - EU-Russia relationships, as well as potentials of joint European policy within UNO.
    Last edited by kato; 02 Nov 09,, 12:53.

  • #2
    Interesting concepts, I assume the idea is a kind of 'collective bargaining' between the nations of Europe and the US.

    In theory that's grand, but how often can we reach concensus on issues?

    Also the article seems to suggest Europe should become America's 'foil' - I happen to think Europe and the US are each others greatest allies, we shouldn't be subserviant to the US, but nor dismissive....we're one bloc of Western cultures in a globalised world, that we stick together matters quite a lot.

    The US is a self-serving state that doesn't care about others interests, but lord knows they're the closest we've got within reasonable distance (Oz and NZ also, but much further away) to family and natural allies.

    As for the particular reference to not needing American security, coming from a country that has never allowed US soldiers on our soil the question is why are they still allowed in Germany/Austria/Italy now that the Berlin Wall has collapsed and Russia poses no viable threat?

    America can use those resources elsewhere, and Europe should be spending more on defending itself.
    Last edited by crooks; 02 Nov 09,, 17:53.
    Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
    - John Stuart Mill.

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    • #3
      It highlights three particular situations where EU member states and their appreciation by the USA are at odds (Afghanistan, Russia, Middle East Peace Process), and how a unified assertive approach could have and in the future would yield favourable results (for the european state of course, not the USA).
      What is good for the US is not automatically good for Europe. The sooner Europeans realize that the better.

      There should be some European defensive treaty under the same model as NATO. The Royal Navy will protect the shores, France would be in charge of the air force and ze Germans supply the soldiers on the ground. Yes I'm delirious.

      But something along these lines would be welcome, and with each year passing by, seriously needed.

      America won't be here forever.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Oscar View Post
        There should be some European defensive treaty under the same model as NATO. The Royal Navy will protect the shores, France would be in charge of the air force and ze Germans supply the soldiers on the ground. Yes I'm delirious.
        Actually, that already exists since the 50s, it's just semi-dormant - the Western European Union.
        The EU is trying to integrate the WEU as part of the joint foreign politics thing. The mutual defense clause offered by the WEU is far more expansive than that of NATO even.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by kato View Post
          Actually, that already exists since the 50s, it's just semi-dormant - the Western European Union.
          The EU is trying to integrate the WEU as part of the joint foreign politics thing. The mutual defense clause offered by the WEU is far more expansive than that of NATO even.
          It became dormant because Americans replaced it with NATO on Europe's behalf, as a security guarantee for the continent and European nations had lost confidence in themselves.

          It's time to move on now and tell our American friends that we will be forever grateful for what they have done to us but this world is changing, and therefore decisions have to be taken so as to preserve our interests.

          Comment


          • #6
            The US is a self-serving state that doesn't care about others interests, but lord knows they're the closest we've got within reasonable distance (Oz and NZ also, but much further away) to family and natural allies.


            *Disagree, Not everything the US has ever done has served their interests. History is full of living proof of this. Perhaps maybe you are displeased with certain Democratic politicians and rolls they have played in Ireland but that far a seperate matter then the entire US. You seem to overlook just how many of "you" are here and "us" there.;)
            Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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            • #7
              America won't be here forever.

              *Do tell Oscar, where is she going to go?
              Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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              • #8
                As for the particular reference to not needing American security, coming from a country that has never allowed US soldiers on our soil the question is why are they still allowed in Germany/Austria/Italy now that the Berlin Wall has collapsed and Russia poses no viable threat?


                *USN personel and ships have been in Ireland more times then I care to count going back to the days of the WWI battleships era and forwards into this century. They gave aid and supported Ireland many times even going back to the potatoe famine that forced mass immigration to the United States. Thats how my family arrived here. And yes, during WWI parts of the US fleet were stationed in Ireland. And thats not to mention how often Shannon airport was used by US troops as a stop over even in this century.;)
                Last edited by Dreadnought; 02 Nov 09,, 22:27.
                Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Dreadnought View Post
                  *Do tell Oscar, where is she going to go?
                  Well, where it comes from most likely. The reasons could be isolationism as a possibility, or defence cuts, or even imperial fatigue. Or maybe the three combined.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Oscar View Post
                    Well, where it comes from most likely. The reasons could be isolationism as a possibility, or defence cuts, or even imperial fatigue. Or maybe the three combined.
                    *Are you sure you dont want to add the movie 2012 to this theory? There is nothing Imperial about the US. Like many times before, somedays you guys like us, somedays you guys hate us and vise versa on our account.;)

                    *IMO you can rule out isolation, far too many people immigrate here for that to ever happen.

                    *Severe Defense cuts would make Congressional officials walk out including SecDef. The President would be impeached. It is within our Constitution to maintain forces loyal to the US.
                    Last edited by Dreadnought; 02 Nov 09,, 22:32.
                    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Dreadnought View Post
                      The US is a self-serving state that doesn't care about others interests, but lord knows they're the closest we've got within reasonable distance (Oz and NZ also, but much further away) to family and natural allies.


                      *Disagree, Not everything the US has ever done has served their interests. History is full of living proof of this. Perhaps maybe you are displeased with certain Democratic politicians and rolls they have played in Ireland but that far a seperate matter then the entire US. You seem to overlook just how many of "you" are here and "us" there.;)
                      Originally posted by President George Washington
                      "Ireland, thou friend of my country in my country's most friendless days, much injured, much enduring land, accept this poor tribute from one who esteems thy worth, and mourns thy desolation."
                      No more words are needed for the relationship between Ireland and America, it is a loving one, and unbreakable.

                      I do feel, however (and this is purely from a scholarly point of view, I'm an Irish isolationist who wants nothing to do with blocs like the US, NATO or a United States of Europe), that Europe should not expect America's unwavering support, because if it's not in America's fundamental interests you mightn't be there.

                      So in other words, if Europe wants to moan about America it must stand up for itself and do the heavy lifting required to be a world power.
                      Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
                      - John Stuart Mill.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Dreadnought View Post
                        As for the particular reference to not needing American security, coming from a country that has never allowed US soldiers on our soil the question is why are they still allowed in Germany/Austria/Italy now that the Berlin Wall has collapsed and Russia poses no viable threat?


                        *USN personel and ships have been in Ireland more times then I care to count going back to the days of the WWI battleships era and forwards into this century. They gave aid and supported Ireland many times even going back to the potatoe famine that forced mass immigration to the United States. Thats how my family arrived here. And yes, during WWI parts of the US fleet were stationed in Ireland. And thats not to mention how often Shannon airport was used by US troops as a stop over even in this century.;)
                        I'm speaking of Irish foreign policy post-1921, when the 26 counties declared independence.

                        WW1 and all times previous was Ireland under British occupation and administration, hardly counts, our foreign policy was being set by foreigners:).

                        In WW2 for example while tacitly supporting the Allies DeValera denied the US/UK any access to Irish ports or land - interestingly he didn't mind airspace and allied pilots shot down were escorted to the 6 counties and safety.
                        Like the other neutrals Ireland had a side in WW2 unofficially, we just wanted to keep neutral, which in my view has always been a wise and fair policy.

                        You've got me on Shannon though, completely illegal, immoral and deeply divisive but yes, it's happened :P!

                        I suppose it's worth noting I was referring to soldiers posted on Irish soil specificially - France, Ireland and Switzerland are currently the only Western European states who don't allow US troops or use of military equipment.
                        Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
                        - John Stuart Mill.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          without US, European States will eat eachother.
                          Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

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                          • #14
                            Without US, Europe would grow up.

                            ie: the Quisling Prize to Obama
                            L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by crooks View Post

                              I suppose it's worth noting I was referring to soldiers posted on Irish soil specificially - France, Ireland and Switzerland are currently the only Western European states who don't allow US troops or use of military equipment.
                              There are thousands of US troops in France. They stand an eternal watch over the land of Lafayette.

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