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Taxonomic conundrum

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  • Taxonomic conundrum

    Science & technology, huh? Here's some scientific trivia that's still a problem for me. Any ideas?

    When I was a little kid I was a classic 4-eyed science geek. Therefore I knew that insects of the order Hemiptera were the "true bugs" & was all puffed up about it to the point that hardly a week went by that I didn't pointedly correct some other kid for using "bug" to describe one of that vast majority of insects that were not true bugs. You can imagine how well that went over. Battered 4-eyed science geek syndrome.

    I knew this true bug business to be a fact because all my little science books a la All About Insects told me so in the first paragraph of any material dealing with Hemipterae. As in, "...contrary to popular belief, insects of the order Hemiptera are the only true 'bugs.' "

    Later, it occurred to me to wonder why. What was it about Hemiptera that made its denizens "true" bugs? Never did find out. Still haven't.

    Still later this "true vs (presumably) false bug business got even weirder when I got a 2-volume OED as a book-club giveaway. Looked up "bug." Seems that modern English "bug" meaning "bug" comes from "bug" in Old English meaning "ghost" or "spirit" & is related to such items as Boogie Man, Bog(u) in Russian meaning "God", & so forth.

    Now that's really confusing. What does it all mean?

    Prof

  • #2
    Curious!

    I'm no expert at all but I just did a quick google/wiki....

    But it seems that Hemiptera insects all have sucking mouths. And that the suborder Heteroptera have flat bodies and a few other collective traits.
    So basically, small insects with sucking mouths and flat bodies are called bugs. But then of course the term caught on and now the layperson considers bug synonymous with insect!

    So I couldn't help googling ladybugs: ladybugs aren't bugs! They're beetles! Hahaha

    Here's my source:
    http://www.brisbaneinsects.com/brisbane_bugs/Bugs.htm

    .

    Comment


    • #3
      Loose term: A bug is any land-dwelling invertebrate that grosses you out and is worthy of being squashed, with only a very few examples that might be spared, such as butterflies, lady bugs, and mantids.

      I don't think the term "bug" has been scientifically defined as well as arthropod, arachnid, etc. Bed bug? I dunno.

      Comment


      • #4
        That's part of the problem. I agree that's there's no scientific answer. Or linguistic answer. It's just that the assertion is there all over the place. I just wonder when & how the question came up in the first place.

        I doubt if some influential group of learned people trying to order taxonomy at some time in the past said "Bugs? I don't like the word. It's offensive. Certainly not for all of these critters. Let's limit it to one order & start out inculcating that knowledge in pre-battered little 4-eyed science geeks, who, prior to battery, will pass the knowledge along to their descendent L4-ESGs"

        Or, perhaps, "these little arthropods of the class insecta are more God- or Ghost-like than their fellow insects. I'm not sure why, but let's call them 'bugs' anyway."

        ?Whassup? I mean, near-universal comment in textbooks has to mean some sort of real historical & meaningful origin, right? Not just maniac assertion, surely?

        The Prof

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        • #5
          What is a tomato? Veggie? Fruit?

          Avocado?

          What is a fruit?

          Lots of things that we really don't have a set definition for. But if you say it, people will understand generally what you mean. ;)
          "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by gunnut View Post
            What is a tomato? Veggie? Fruit?

            Avocado?

            What is a fruit?

            Lots of things that we really don't have a set definition for. But if you say it, people will understand generally what you mean. ;)
            Got a better one than that for you. A couple of years ago we caught Emero's cooking show for Halloween. Naturally he had to do some food presentation with pumpkins.

            But before he did, he announced that the technical researcher for the show did some study in exactly what order of vegetation does a pumpkin come under.

            a) Gourd

            b) Fruit

            c) Vegetable

            d) Berry

            e) Squash.

            ???????
            Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

            Comment


            • #7
              Squash?

              I mean that's what it looks like after the kids are done with their pranks...

              Plant life is by far not one of my specialties. I know I can eat some and some I can eat but choose not to.
              "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

              Comment


              • #8
                It's just a convention among entomologists to restrict the term 'bug' to Hemipterans, in the same way that beetles are all Coleopterans, and anything called a beetle that is not a Coleopteran is not a 'true beetle.' This often happens when scientists co-opt a common term- after a while the scientific usage becomes significantly different from common usage. This doesn't mean the common usage is incorrect in general, just in a scientific context.
                I enjoy being wrong too much to change my mind.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by RustyBattleship
                  Got a better one than that for you. A couple of years ago we caught Emero's cooking show for Halloween. Naturally he had to do some food presentation with pumpkins.

                  But before he did, he announced that the technical researcher for the show did some study in exactly what order of vegetation does a pumpkin come under.

                  a) Gourd

                  b) Fruit

                  c) Vegetable

                  d) Berry

                  e) Squash.

                  ???????
                  As far as a botanist is concerned, it is a b) a fruit, d) a berry, specifically a pepo (the specific type of fruit) and e) a member of the squash genus, Cucurbita, specifically Cucurbita pepo, the same species as zucchini, yellow squash, and butternut squash. But not buttercup, which said delectable I am currently consuming. Yum.
                  Last edited by ArmchairGeneral; 03 Nov 09,, 00:23.
                  I enjoy being wrong too much to change my mind.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                    What is a tomato? Veggie? Fruit?

                    Avocado?

                    What is a fruit?

                    Lots of things that we really don't have a set definition for. But if you say it, people will understand generally what you mean. ;)
                    Yo. But you don't find zillions of botanists confusing me by saying, "...contrary to popular opinion, the water oak is the only true oak. & then find that "water oak" in proto-indoeuropean or something used to mean "lug wrench." It's just an itch, but I've never been able to scratch it.

                    Prof

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ArmchairGeneral View Post
                      As far as a botanist is concerned, it is a b) a fruit, d) a berry, specifically a pepo (the specific type of fruit) and e) a member of the squash genus, Cucurbita, specifically Cucurbita pepo, the same species as zucchini, yellow squash, and butternut squash. But not buttercup, which said delectable I am currently consuming. Yum.
                      Now, that's interesting. As an avid consumer of meat-like vegetables, I didn't know that. All of the above, eh?

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                      • #12
                        Well, it's not really a gourd. Typically gourd is reserved for inedible members of the squash family.
                        I enjoy being wrong too much to change my mind.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          In the interest of full disclosure: meat-like vegetables, as in meat = real food.
                          a) all beans & bean-like things, such as peas. Including the hulls.
                          b) all potatos (potatoes?)
                          c) All other subterranean (stem or root) vegetables. This hesitantly includes rutabagas but cheerfully includes tur****, which get a pass by themselves but are unsurpassed when chopped up & associated with their greens which, when boiled with bacon, a little unsulphured molasses & a little vinegar, are ambrosia.
                          c) All discrete grain (grass seed) foods.
                          d) Stuff in Whole Foods stores that looks & acts like grain but isn't really but tastes good anyway.

                          Much gratitude is due to the people who lived here before us European, etc-types got here. A diet of corn (maize), beans & squash was their idea, & a damn good one.

                          All crispy Californiac vegetable food is bad for you & will lead to alcoholic abstinence.

                          Prof

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Prof View Post
                            In the interest of full disclosure: meat-like vegetables, as in meat = real food.
                            a) all beans & bean-like things, such as peas. Including the hulls.
                            b) all potatos (potatoes?)
                            c) All other subterranean (stem or root) vegetables. This hesitantly includes rutabagas but cheerfully includes tur****, which get a pass by themselves but are unsurpassed when chopped up & associated with their greens which, when boiled with bacon, a little unsulphured molasses & a little vinegar, are ambrosia.
                            c) All discrete grain (grass seed) foods.
                            d) Stuff in Whole Foods stores that looks & acts like grain but isn't really but tastes good anyway.

                            Much gratitude is due to the people who lived here before us European, etc-types got here. A diet of corn (maize), beans & squash was their idea, & a damn good one.

                            All crispy Californiac vegetable food is bad for you & will lead to alcoholic abstinence.

                            Prof
                            "Tur****" gets censured? Or at least "****." Wonder what I typed.

                            Prof

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Prof View Post
                              "Tur****" gets censured? Or at least "****." Wonder what I typed.

                              Prof
                              Sorry, but, Wow.

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