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  • Capitalism or socialism?

    İn fact,this could be a very wrong starter thinking that most here are westerners and will defend capitalism?

    I too am a capitalist and I do not think there is any other way,as socialism was tried but collapsed as its ideology never considered ''human factor ''Nobody is equal in life,everbody is different.Life by its origin is full of challenges and chaotic!

    What do you guys think of the two?

    Lets start this debate which could be interesting!..

    Regards

    Timur

  • #2
    Laissez-faire Capitalism to a point. One thing I'm on the fence about are Monopolies, as companies are no better then government run when they don't have competition.

    I believe a lot of problems can be solved better through more robust consumer reporting and pressure then through government regulation.

    I believe that not factoring in greed to any equation is foolish, and that is why socialism, and unions don't work out in the end.

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    • #3
      What do you guys think of the two?
      I don't believe in both。No matter Capitalism or socialism,I think they're ways to make people happy and rich。The results is more important。And I don't kow how do you define the Capitalism and socialism,what‘s your idea about China now,a Capitalism or socialism?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Luke Gu View Post
        I don't believe in both。No matter Capitalism or socialism,I think they're ways to make people happy and rich。The results is more important。And I don't kow how do you define the Capitalism and socialism,what‘s your idea about China now,a Capitalism or socialism?
        Do not compare China with others!1,5 billion people,they can't have a pure capitalist state!They go step by step!They are 50/50 for time being!I know it because I have lots of business with China and I go to China 5 times a year!

        Regards

        Timur

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Timur View Post
          Do not compare China with others!1,5 billion people,they can't have a pure capitalist state!They go step by step!They are 50/50 for time being!I know it because I have lots of business with China and I go to China 5 times a year!
          Then what you want to compare?Just USSR,I think the debate have had the conclusion because USSR have Collapsed。I think we can't avoid China because China is the biggest Socialist countries now。I hope The question that I’ve asked can make you think about the standard about Capitalism and socialism.I think Capitalism nation also take some actions which belonged to socialism nation。And the Capitalism isn't Perfect。So I think we should not rigidly adhere to socialism or capitalism。

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Luke Gu View Post
            Then what you want to compare?Just USSR,I think the debate have had the conclusion because USSR have Collapsed。I think we can't avoid China because China is the biggest Socialist countries now。I hope The question that I’ve asked can make you think about the standard about Capitalism and socialism.I think Capitalism nation also take some actions which belonged to socialism nation。And the Capitalism isn't Perfect。So I think we should not rigidly adhere to socialism or capitalism。
            How did you guess that??

            China today is partially capitalist but everything still controlled by the government!China is not a socailst country as the theory goes by!

            İn life,nothing is perfect,there is no perfection in life!!! Everybody is different than one another!That is life,full of surprises,negative or positive! Nothing is equal!

            Regards

            Timur

            Comment


            • #7
              I think you could do with defining 'socialism' first. Americans and europeans seem to mean very different things when we use this word. Are you talking about Sweden? or do you mean Venezuala?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by zara View Post
                I think you could do with defining 'socialism' first. Americans and europeans seem to mean very different things when we use this word. Are you talking about Sweden? or do you mean Venezuala?
                What I mean by capitalism is free market idea!Ok if I have 200.000 usd and I build up a super market and have people working for me,then please tell me am I a capitalist?

                Just tell me!

                Then I will reply!!!!

                Regards

                Timur

                Comment


                • #9
                  Unrestricted capitalism resulted in Americas gilded age and was an abject failure. It led to several mini political revolutions in the country as the little guy tried to fight back. The Grangers, the Populists and then the Progressives. All seeking roughly the same thing, busting the monopoly on capitol that big business had. Eventually after a lot of bloodshed and a very real fear of a workers revolution the system moved into Fordism or company welfare. Workers get paid more so that their buying power inflates the whole economy. It was named Fordism because Ford was the first major company to use it.

                  Company welfare with certain now codified workers rights lasted until America grew out of its industrial age. Now socialism is rearing its head again after virtually unrestricted capitalism led to another collapse.

                  I love capitalism, but it needs to be restricted. The unrestricted market is not a panacea, its a curse. You need the power of government to look after the little guy or he will get stepped on.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Timur View Post
                    How did you guess that??

                    China today is partially capitalist but everything still controlled by the government!China is not a socailst country as the theory goes by!
                    Guess what?As your idea,China isn't a Purely socailst country ,then tell me what's the standard of a Purely socailst country?And what's the standard of A purely capitalist country?I think many purely capitalist countries have changed much during the long history。Then why do you say China isn't a socailst nation ?Because we reform our economic?So I think your idea is Unpersuasive。
                    İn life,nothing is perfect,there is no perfection in life!!! Everybody is different than one another!That is life,full of surprises,negative or positive! Nothing is equal!
                    So the capitalist countries also need some socailst country measures to help them overcome the shortcomings。Then tell me are they Purely capitalist country if they take these actions?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Luke Gu View Post
                      Guess what?As your idea,China isn't a Purely socailst country ,then tell me what's the standard of a Purely socailst country?And what's the standard of A purely capitalist country?I think many purely capitalist countries have changed much during the long history。Then why do you say China isn't a socailst nation ?Because we reform our economic?So I think your idea is Unpersuasive。

                      So the capitalist countries also need some socailst country measures to help them overcome the shortcomings。Then tell me are they Purely capitalist country if they take these actions?
                      China is not socialist, not by a long shot. The workers do not own the means of production, there is not much of social safety net etc. The type of government the PRC has most closely resembles German fascism minus the whole twisted Jew hating and agri-centric ideology thing. its an authoritarian government with national central planning for goals and lots of local control by the local party and in bed with big business with a strong strain of nationalism. Its not truly capitalist or even closely socialist.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by zraver View Post
                        China is not socialist, not by a long shot. The workers do not own the means of production, there is not much of social safety net etc. The type of government the PRC has most closely resembles German fascism minus the whole twisted Jew hating and agri-centric ideology thing. its an authoritarian government with national central planning for goals and lots of local control by the local party and in bed with big business with a strong strain of nationalism. Its not truly capitalist or even closely socialist.
                        Z,

                        One major difference I would point out is that the Chinese state still owns or controls a lot of large enterprises - a hangover from the old days. I don't recall the Nazis being especially big on actually running businesses (before the war at least - but wars do funny things).

                        I can see some of the Nazi comparison. but I think the problem is the direction in which the state is evolving. Nazi Germany was evolving from a sort of quasi-democratic Bismarckian corporatism toward a much more highly centralized (if chaotic) state based around a single person. On the whole freedoms of all sorts (economic included) were decreasing & heavy handed (and arbitrary) state intervention increasing.

                        Politically & economically China is headed in the opposite direction. It is hard to know where it is heading. Perhaps something like the 'corporatist' model. Certainly Chinese leaders are enamoured of modern equivalents such as Singapore. This would mean a great deal of economic freedom at a certain level, decreasing as one becomes larger & more important. Heavy state involvement in the economy to continue.
                        sigpic

                        Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Luke Gu View Post
                          I don't believe in both。No matter Capitalism or socialism,I think they're ways to make people happy and rich。The results is more important。And I don't kow how do you define the Capitalism and socialism,what‘s your idea about China now,a Capitalism or socialism?
                          Both wrapped up in an oppressive oligarchy.
                          F/A-18E/F Super Hornet: The Honda Accord of fighters.

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                          • #14
                            I'd argue that China shows Capitalism and Democracy don't always come hand in hand, and that freeing markets doesn't free people by itself.
                            Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
                            - John Stuart Mill.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Luke Gu View Post
                              I think we can't avoid China because China is the biggest Socialist countries now。

                              China has little in common with socialism.
                              Society must provide a decent level of life for its every citizen and must have free education, free healf care, universal state pension system, state assistance for unemployed and many other social nets to pass by the name of socialist.
                              Some EU states got close to that.
                              Definitely China isn’t there yet.

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