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Would you vote for the Lisbon Treaty?

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  • Would you vote for the Lisbon Treaty?

    In a couple of weeks Ireland is being asked to vote a second time (apparently we got the wrong answer last time) on the Lisbon treaty - or the regurgitated EU constitution.

    Virtually all the other governments in Europe have ratified this treaty, putting a lot of pressure on Ireland to do the same. With the economy in a mess, many think that Ireland may vote yes this time.

    some of the things the treaty does:

    Establish an EU president for a 2 and a half year term. Tony Blair is a candidate for this position, and with Sarkozys support, hes likely to get it.

    Establishes a foreign policy post called the 'High representative' - She/He will speak for Europe as a single entity on foreign policy matters.

    Countries would lose their commissioners for 1 term out of every 3.

    Changes the voting laws removing many national vetos (but not defence or right to life issues). Voting would be based on population bases rather than statehood, (ie. big population like france, UK, Germany more votes, small population like Ireland, Holland, Denmark less votes)

    Gives the Union more power over a countries Judicial system and law enforcement (though Ireland have negotiated an opt-out from this). Gives the Union more say over Climate change and the environment.

    National parliaments will be included in the legislative process and the size of the commission will be reduced making it more democratic.

    Passes the Charter of Human Rights into law and makes it legally binding to all member states.


    How would you vote? This affects all of Europe, not just Ireland.
    33
    Yes
    36.36%
    12
    No
    57.58%
    19
    Dont Know
    6.06%
    2

  • #2
    If the Irish want to just share the economic benefits in EU and do not want to play a useful role in international affairs,why not agree Lisbon。

    Comment


    • #3
      I'll be voting NO, same as last time, I'm not sure we can win but I'm more confident now than I was a month ago - not an iota has changed, the elements I find objectable (militarisation of EU, national flag and citizenship, more powers for centralised EU) are there in spirit and if we say yes again we might as well kiss Irish democracy good bye, Bruxelles will know all it needs to do the placate the Irish is hold a referendum twice.

      Somehow I don't think we'd be doing a re-run if we had said yes in Lisbon 1.
      Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
      - John Stuart Mill.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Luke Gu View Post
        If the Irish want to just share the economic benefits in EU and do not want to play a useful role in international affairs,why not agree Lisbon。
        Its not just the Irish that are skeptical though - France and Holland both voted no to the original constitution, and I think most states probably would vote no if given a referendum - The Irish are generally very enthusiastic Europeans, but many feel this treaty is going too far.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by crooks View Post
          I'll be voting NO, same as last time, I'm not sure we can win but I'm more confident now than I was a month ago - not an iota has changed, the elements I find objectable (militarisation of EU, national flag and citizenship, more powers for centralised EU) are there in spirit and if we say yes again we might as well kiss Irish democracy good bye, Bruxelles will know all it needs to do the placate the Irish is hold a referendum twice.

          Somehow I don't think we'd be doing a re-run if we had said yes in Lisbon 1.
          Im still undecided personally - theres some stuff in there that I like, but the qualified majority voting wont be good for small states like Ireland.

          I think the 'militarisation of europe' as you say is just false rumours, and im not sure about the 'more centralised EU' either. The treaty will mean that national parliaments are more involved in the decision making process.

          If the treaty is rejected again - I cant see them holding it a third time - Surely they wouldn't be that cheeky?

          Comment


          • #6
            I think the Lisbon Treaty will be voted until you guys agree it。Politicians like to test our patience

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by zara View Post
              Im still undecided personally - theres some stuff in there that I like, but the qualified majority voting wont be good for small states like Ireland.

              I think the 'militarisation of europe' as you say is just false rumours, and im not sure about the 'more centralised EU' either. The treaty will mean that national parliaments are more involved in the decision making process.

              If the treaty is rejected again - I cant see them holding it a third time - Surely they wouldn't be that cheeky?
              There are obviously a lot of nutjob arguments out there, for example I don't agree with COIR's 'it will introduce abortion' or the conscription stuff but it will militarise the EU - it will mandate higher defense spending, introduce the concept of 'European' defense forces and has provisions for an expanded battlegroup function....I'm actually in favour of increased defense spending (Ireland spends comically little on our armed forces) but I favour it on Irish terms, to defend Ireland and it's neutrality, voted on by the Irish people.

              On centralisation, it creates a Foreign affairs position for the EU and shifts even more power to Brussels, while weakening the say of smaller countries like ourselves, the Dutch and Danes - it's architects haven't even the honesty to admit that the EU is now superceding national governments on many levels, which besides being false it's dangerous in a democracy when we are not being told what the treaty does and what it's designed for.

              National governments don't seem to bothered by this (surely you're creeped out by our mainstream political concensus? How can FF, FG, and Labour agree completely on anything?), but then, if you're part of an establishment that will benefit from this, why fight it?

              Ireland needs to send a big message back to Brussels, if only to wake 'em up.
              Last edited by crooks; 11 Sep 09,, 17:07.
              Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
              - John Stuart Mill.

              Comment


              • #8
                You are awfully lucky to live in a democratic country, here in Germany it was decided for us by our nanny state. I would have voted "NO F'IN WAY".

                Tony
                Yet another ex-tankie of 1 RTR origin.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Its a big of an odd democracy when they keep asking you to vote again.

                  The politicians are being extremely ropey about it - Our Teosioch (Prime Minister) hasn't even read the damn thing!

                  Crooks - You said it mandates defense spending - do you have any more details on that?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by zara View Post
                    Its a big of an odd democracy when they keep asking you to vote again.

                    The politicians are being extremely ropey about it - Our Teosioch (Prime Minister) hasn't even read the damn thing!

                    Crooks - You said it mandates defense spending - do you have any more details on that?
                    Sure - the specific provision within the treaty is that : "member states shall undertake progressively to improve their military capabilities".

                    Nothing about specific figures, but it makes me uneasy, once allied with the fact that France and Germany want an integrated military force and that Lisbon provides further groundwork for such things to become plausible.

                    Now If I sound like Richard Greene or Patricia McKenna I don't mean to, but cookies aside, they have some points.

                    On that note, definetely my favourite fake poster :)):

                    Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
                    - John Stuart Mill.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      In some ways I feel sorry for Brian Cowen, sure he was crap as Minister of Finance (Quinn was excellent and McCreevy was decent even though he was quite right wing) but the mess he's in is mostly Bertie's making....that said I can't wait for an election, and I'm hoping Fianna Fail get wiped out, I really am, then maybe we'll have real politics.
                      Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
                      - John Stuart Mill.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        "SECTION 2 PROVISIONS ON THE COMMON SECURITY AND DEFENCE POLICY". 48) Article 27 shall take over the wording of Article 17, with the following amendments:
                        (a) the following new paragraph 1 shall be inserted and the next paragraph shall be renumbered 2: "1. The common security and defence policy shall be an integral part of the common foreign and security policy. It shall provide the Union with an operational capacity drawing on civil and military assets. The Union may use them on missions outside the Union for peace-keeping, conflict prevention and strengthening international security in accordance with the principles of the United Nations Charter. The performance of these tasks shall be undertaken using capabilities provided by the Member States."; (b) paragraph 1, renumbered 2, shall be amended as follows: (i) the first subparagraph shall be replaced by the following: "The common security and defence policy shall include the progressive framing of a common Union defence policy. This will lead to a common defence, when the European Council, acting unanimously, so decides. It shall in that case recommend to the Member States the adoption of such a decision in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements."; (ii) in the second subparagraph, the words "in accordance with this Article" shall be replaced by "in accordance with this Section"; (iii) the third subparagraph shall be deleted. (c) paragraph 2, renumbered 3, to paragraph 5 shall be replaced by the following paragraphs: "3. Member States shall make civilian and military capabilities available to the Union for the implementation of the common security and defence policy, to contribute to the objectives defined by the Council. Those Member States which together establish multinational forces may also make them available to the common security and defence policy. Member States shall undertake progressively to improve their military capabilities. The Agency in the field of defence capabilities development, research, acquisition and armaments (European Defence Agency) shall identify operational requirements, shall promote measures to satisfy those requirements, shall contribute to identifying and, where appropriate, implementing any measure needed to strengthen the industrial and technological base of the defence sector, shall participate in defining a European capabilities and armaments policy, and shall assist the Council in evaluating the improvement of military capabilities. 4. Decisions relating to the common security and defence policy, including those initiating a mission as referred to in this Article, shall be adopted by the Council acting unanimously on a proposal from the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy or an initiative from a Member State. The High Representative may propose the use of both national resources and Union instruments, together with the Commission where appropriate. 5. The Council may entrust the execution of a task, within the Union framework, to a group of Member States in order to protect the Union's values and serve its interests. The execution of such a task shall be governed by Article 29. 6. Those Member States whose military capabilities fulfil higher criteria and which have made more binding commitments to one another in this area with a view to the most demanding missions shall establish permanent structured cooperation within the Union framework. Such cooperation shall be governed by Article 31. It shall not affect the provisions of Article 28. 7. If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. This shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States. Commitments and cooperation in this area shall be consistent with commitments under the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, which, for those States which are members of it, remains the foundation of their collective defence and the forum for its implementation.".

                        What the hell does that mean? If its UN peacekeeping then fine. If its silly misguided adventures in the middleast in the name of 'freedom and democracy' then they can get lost.

                        This will lead to a common defence, when the European Council, acting unanimously, so decides

                        So this treaty basically means that they can impose a common defence when they feel like it - but not now?

                        Thats a sneaky way to bring it in isnt it?

                        Im really leaning torwards a no.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by zara View Post
                          Its a big of an odd democracy when they keep asking you to vote again.

                          The politicians are being extremely ropey about it - Our Teosioch (Prime Minister) hasn't even read the damn thing!

                          Crooks - You said it mandates defense spending - do you have any more details on that?
                          Its called ,,,,,,,, move the goalposts zara :(

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            it certainly is tankie,

                            The way I see it is that they will never take a 'No' from a small country like Ireland.

                            All we can do is maybe delay it until Cameron and conservatives get in in Britain (they've promised a referendum).

                            Surely they wouldn't get ask the British to vote again like did with us?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by zara View Post
                              What the hell does that mean? If its UN peacekeeping then fine. If its silly misguided adventures in the middleast in the name of 'freedom and democracy' then they can get lost.

                              This will lead to a common defence, when the European Council, acting unanimously, so decides

                              So this treaty basically means that they can impose a common defence when they feel like it - but not now?

                              Thats a sneaky way to bring it in isnt it?

                              Im really leaning torwards a no.
                              Well what adds to the creepiness of our complete consensus is the lingo - so slimey, everything refers to a paragraph somewhere else, it's deliberately unreadable.

                              Now as said before, IMO Ireland SHOULD spend more, double at least, on defence, but on our own, for our own defence and within this state's (lamentably weak but worth protecting) neutrality protocols.

                              For me I don't care what the media says, a NO vote is the only way to preserve our independence and neutrality...originally I just viewed it worth opposing because it had a lot of objectionable content, now I'm actually convinced that if we overturn ourselves we lose our status as a democratic state.

                              Incidentilly did you not vote last time?

                              It was a fun campaign :):))!
                              Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
                              - John Stuart Mill.

                              Comment

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