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M-193 vs. SS-109

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  • M-193 vs. SS-109

    Ok I already know the M-193 has been replaced in American service by the SS-109. And other nations still have the bullet in service due to cost issues.

    But from some reading I have done it seems the M-193 hits better then the SS-109 to deal with and kill/maim people. The SS-109 was and is an attempt to get more range out of the bullet and hit through heavier targets.

    I know a gaggle of people who have engaged the enemy (NVA/VC/PL/KR) with the M-193 firing M-16A1 and had no real complaints about its stopping power. Yeah a few of them had stories about hitting a guy a couple of times before they fell dead. And these guys had been armed with M-1 Garands, M-1 Thompson, and M-1/M-2 Carbines before hand and thought the M-193 was an excellent bullet. Granted they were comparing it with WW-2 bullets and not the SS-109.

    The stories coming out about the SS-109 have not it seems been as good. Now granted some of that could be written off on the green tip armor piercing bullets being used on hopped up tribals or maybe watching to many movies and assuming people die or at least fall down after getting hit once (I have been shot a few times and never fallen down screaming.. just me). A few books have made the claim that the bullet rifling is to tight and makes for less tumbling and thus hitting power. Hell who knows... I don't...

    Rifles and machine guns using the M-193 are still being made. Both the Ultimax-100 and SAR-21 in Singapore use the older bullet and the FNC can be fitted to fire the bullet as well as can other systems. On the other hand the IDF modified its CAR-15s to fire the SS-109 out of a heavier barrel.

    So I was wondering what some of you gun experts with experience on both thought about the bullets and the differences between them...
    Last edited by troung; 01 Apr 05,, 02:59.
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

  • #2
    The SS-109/M-855 IS the green tip AP ammunition.

    The M-855 is, like all things made by man, a compromise designed to perform well in certain pre-concieved conditions.

    It is optomized for range, accuray, and penetration, and for those three things it is FAR superior to the M-193.

    The M-193 is more destructive in soft tissue without any doubt whatsoever, mainly because of it's enhanced velocity vs the M-855(3200fps vs 2850fps).

    Personally, i think the M-855 is a superior all around military cartridge, but for a civilian defense application, the M-193 turns the tables because of it's increased lethality.

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    • #3
      Thanks M-21 if anyone could answer it was you ;) .

      The only people I personally know who used the M-193 in action never fired a SS-109 at anyone as the M-16A2 showed up long after those wars were over. They liked both the M-16A1 and its ammo over the WW-2 retreads they were using before hand. The SS-109 has taken it seems more flak then the M-193 has for stopping and killing poeple, granted it still does daily kill people all over the world...

      I had always wondered it the M-4 might have been better served with the M-193 bullet for use on the softer targets guy with it often engage. I mean the M-4 was made as a PDW and hitting people is often the job of a list ditch system like the M-4 was supposed to be. And the barrel does not seem to get the preformance out of the SS-109.

      And the other thing I wondered about was taking out the green tip for "softer" target kinda like 2 green tips, 2 softer tips (not HP) and 1 tracer every 5 rounds... I don't know but not all of our targets are using armor these days...
      To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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      • #4
        You could certainly alternate between M-855 and some M-anti bad guy cartridge in a single mag as you would with tracer, but you'd want to make sure the ballistics and BC were identical so as to ensure the exact same impact point.

        However, with the proliferation of body armor, it's probably wise that the M-855 was configured with a case-hardened steel core.

        The M-193 is stable in the M-16A2/4 though, so there is nothing to stop your forces from using M-193 in scenarios where buildings are of very light construction or the enemy has no ready supply of body armor.

        Me, if i'm designing the 'ideal' all-around cartridge for 5.56 i'm going back to the lighter 55gr spitzer boat-tail projectile consisting of a tungsten core and light jacket.

        This way the jacket will readily shed in soft tissue at the high 3200fps velocity of the 55gr projectiles, and vs hard targets the tungsten core will still provide excellent penetration. You'd lose some range, but you'd still have a 500 meter cartridge in the M-16A2/4, and a 400 meter cartridge in the M-4A1.

        Tungsten core bullets are obviously much more expensive though.

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        • #5
          I've shot both SS-109 and M193 out of my DPMS M-4 clone. The SS109 bullet makes a far louder "thud" when it hits steel targets than the M193 does. It's also more accurate.
          "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man

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          • #6
            Have you shot at a piece of meat with both?
            Can't wait 'till they mass-produce frangible rounds.

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            • #7
              No, but I've shot varmints with both. Effect is the same, more or less. Perhaps I need a larger target.
              "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man

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              • #8
                Go urban hunting—shoot some steer: http://www.treefort.org/~rgrogan/web/bambi1.htm
                jk

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                • #9
                  Strangely enough, deer occasionally wander onto peoples' lawns and front yards here in El Paso, especially those farther away from the center of the city and closer to the desert.
                  "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man

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                  • #10
                    "The M-193 is stable in the M-16A2/4 though, so there is nothing to stop your forces from using M-193 in scenarios where buildings are of very light construction or the enemy has no ready supply of body armor."

                    And what is the flip side, in other words putting an SS-109 through a CAR-15, AR-15, or M-16A1?

                    "This way the jacket will readily shed in soft tissue at the high 3200fps velocity of the 55gr projectiles, and vs hard targets the tungsten core will still provide excellent penetration. You'd lose some range, but you'd still have a 500 meter cartridge in the M-16A2/4, and a 400 meter cartridge in the M-4A1."

                    That's pretty good. Seeing as our likely enemies are shooting at 200 meters with AK-47s.
                    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by leibstandarte10
                      Strangely enough, deer occasionally wander onto peoples' lawns and front yards here in El Paso, especially those farther away from the center of the city and closer to the desert.
                      I know what you are thinking. Put it out of your mind. Murphy's law states that a wounded deer will automatically go to and die on the doorstep of the most liberal, anti hunting person in your area. I had a friend who did a similar thing. he lived in a rural area with a bow. He did everything legally yet had to go to court as his neighbor, who was anti hunting and a friend of the county DA, leveled charges of trespassing, shooting a pet, shooting across a road, poaching, wasting game meat, and a few other I can not remember. Eventually all the charges were dropped, but it was an experience no one should have to go through.
                      Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

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                      • #12
                        "And what is the flip side, in other words putting an SS-109 through a CAR-15, AR-15, or M-16A1?"

                        The M-855 62gr projectile is COMPLETELY unstable in the 1:12 rifling of the M-16A1 and early CAR-15A1/Commando models.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by bonehead
                          I know what you are thinking. Put it out of your mind. Murphy's law states that a wounded deer will automatically go to and die on the doorstep of the most liberal, anti hunting person in your area. I had a friend who did a similar thing. he lived in a rural area with a bow. He did everything legally yet had to go to court as his neighbor, who was anti hunting and a friend of the county DA, leveled charges of trespassing, shooting a pet, shooting across a road, poaching, wasting game meat, and a few other I can not remember. Eventually all the charges were dropped, but it was an experience no one should have to go through.
                          That person is a very sad, miserable creature. You know wich person.

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                          • #14
                            Naturally, the deer only live up on the mountains that separate the city in half, and only the most yuppy, rich, old, anti-violence and -hunting people live up there. Most of the deer you see are does anyway.
                            "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man

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                            • #15
                              mmmmm..... tasty....

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